Glasses Free 3D TV (Another chance for 3D ?)
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Just saw some News on tweeter that there was a glasses Free 3D tv made by ultra D on CES, here is a video about their tv: https://vimeo.com/249131361 What You guys think about It ?
Just saw some News on tweeter that there was a glasses Free 3D tv made by ultra D on CES, here is a video about their tv: https://vimeo.com/249131361


What You guys think about It ?

#1
Posted 01/20/2018 03:33 AM   
Doesn't really explain how it's going to work, or did I miss it? Still, I like the idea of glasses free, even passive can create some eye strain after long sessions.
Doesn't really explain how it's going to work, or did I miss it?

Still, I like the idea of glasses free, even passive can create some eye strain after long sessions.

#2
Posted 01/20/2018 04:15 AM   
3D is going to reborn this year with [b]multiscopic [/b]screens for TV (Ultra-D screens from major brands) and smartphones (Red Hydrogen One). This 3D is a new generation, you can view different angles as you move head, like an hologram, like as the objet is really in front of you. And next year Ultra-D will be available for tablets, smartphones and PCs.
3D is going to reborn this year with multiscopic screens for TV (Ultra-D screens from major brands) and smartphones (Red Hydrogen One). This 3D is a new generation, you can view different angles as you move head, like an hologram, like as the objet is really in front of you. And next year Ultra-D will be available for tablets, smartphones and PCs.

#3
Posted 01/20/2018 04:49 AM   
No, unmester. 3D do not cause eye strain (bad 3d does).
No, unmester. 3D do not cause eye strain (bad 3d does).

#4
Posted 01/20/2018 04:53 AM   
I guess You can find a explanation on How It Works on their Website. It seems Very promissing, and It has adjustable 3d depth for more Comfort, and a real time converter powered by a snapdragon processor. I would definatelly buy It as i actually don't like wearing glasses (but i still think It is more Comfortable than wearing a hmd). I think that they Said that their Will have consumer ready product by the end of year, let's see what is going to happen.
I guess You can find a explanation on How It Works on their Website.
It seems Very promissing, and It has adjustable 3d depth for more Comfort, and a real time converter powered by a snapdragon processor. I would definatelly buy It as i actually don't like wearing glasses (but i still think It is more Comfortable than wearing a hmd). I think that they Said that their Will have consumer ready product by the end of year, let's see what is going to happen.

#5
Posted 01/20/2018 10:18 AM   
[quote="djkano"]No, unmester. 3D do not cause eye strain (bad 3d does).[/quote] Surely this mostly depends on the individual's eyes and brain, which are all unique and something that a manufactured technology can never fully take into account. Active hurts my eyes within 10-30 mins and even passive can make them water after a few hours. I don't think it's anything to do with 3d quality, rather it's just straining the eye to perceive a manufactured image. Our eyes have millions of years of evolution invested in observing 3d space in the physical world, not a virtual representation of 3d space. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 3d gaming immensely, but can also understand that our senses have been developed to work best in actual, not virtual, environments.
djkano said:No, unmester. 3D do not cause eye strain (bad 3d does).


Surely this mostly depends on the individual's eyes and brain, which are all unique and something that a manufactured technology can never fully take into account.

Active hurts my eyes within 10-30 mins and even passive can make them water after a few hours. I don't think it's anything to do with 3d quality, rather it's just straining the eye to perceive a manufactured image. Our eyes have millions of years of evolution invested in observing 3d space in the physical world, not a virtual representation of 3d space. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 3d gaming immensely, but can also understand that our senses have been developed to work best in actual, not virtual, environments.

#6
Posted 01/20/2018 11:49 PM   
like you say everyone is different, personally without 3dvision I suffer from major headaches and motions sickness when playing alot of games, when I am playing in 3d however it doesn't happen at all.
like you say everyone is different, personally without 3dvision I suffer from major headaches and motions sickness when playing alot of games, when I am playing in 3d however it doesn't happen at all.

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#7
Posted 01/21/2018 08:25 AM   
I wonder what type of lenticular barrier that they are using and if eye tracking is needed. [quote="Necropants"]like you say everyone is different, personally without 3dvision I suffer from major headaches and motions sickness when playing alot of games, when I am playing in 3d however it doesn't happen at all.[/quote] I wish I could say the same, while it doesn't alleviate it for me, it does indeed help. Unfortunately, a scorpion sting that happened about a year ago, has made my motion sickness worse. It did something to my equilibrium, but is waning as time passes. I'm playing The Witcher 3 now and galloping on Roach makes me ill, so I casually canter.
I wonder what type of lenticular barrier that they are using and if eye tracking is needed.



Necropants said:like you say everyone is different, personally without 3dvision I suffer from major headaches and motions sickness when playing alot of games, when I am playing in 3d however it doesn't happen at all.


I wish I could say the same, while it doesn't alleviate it for me, it does indeed help.

Unfortunately, a scorpion sting that happened about a year ago, has made my motion sickness worse. It did something to my equilibrium, but is waning as time passes.

I'm playing The Witcher 3 now and galloping on Roach makes me ill, so I casually canter.

#8
Posted 01/21/2018 05:46 PM   
The tech used by UltraD isn't clear. Some communications say they're doing multi-view with a lenticular array which is the same tech as all the previous glasses-free 3D displays (and which always failed to reach the consumer market), some communications say they're producing a lightfield which is a differnt beast. But whichever technology they use, this approach will not reach a broad adoption due to the inherent flaws of this tech : -it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs -it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs. It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution. It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete. Then in the future, if manufacturers start producing 8K panels, then there will be 8K 2D content (current high end cinema cameras can already record at these resolutions), and the UltraD tech will still be stuck. It's a chicken and egg problem.
The tech used by UltraD isn't clear. Some communications say they're doing multi-view with a lenticular array which is the same tech as all the previous glasses-free 3D displays (and which always failed to reach the consumer market), some communications say they're producing a lightfield which is a differnt beast.

But whichever technology they use, this approach will not reach a broad adoption due to the inherent flaws of this tech :
-it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs
-it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel

In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs.
It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution.

It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete.
Then in the future, if manufacturers start producing 8K panels, then there will be 8K 2D content (current high end cinema cameras can already record at these resolutions), and the UltraD tech will still be stuck.
It's a chicken and egg problem.

Passive 3D forever
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#9
Posted 01/22/2018 08:11 AM   
[quote="BlackSharkfr"] -it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs -it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs. It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution. It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete.[/quote] No, no and no. I'm creating an [b]extensive[/b] article about Ultra-D. Added costs will be only 5%. MILLIONS of 8K Ultra-D panels will be distributed this year. Adding this to the Red Hydrogen One with 4 view format, better 3D content will arrive (and a lot of volumetric content produced for VR can be easily converted to 3D or 4 view) the traditional 3D will be obsolete. And that Depth can be easily added using a single alpha layer to 2d image, 3D will no longer occupy twice, depth can be embedded on 2d images, that will still appear as 2d for users using 2d screens, but on depth screens will view better 3D than the traditional "2 views 3D". So better 3d content is arriving this year. Also, a gaming Ultra-D pc monitor is coming this year, so in 2019 nvidia 3d vision could be obsolete and maybe we will be discussing about [b]depth [/b]games on another forum about ultra-D instead on nvidia 3d vision forum. Article will be very long and in 3 languages, so be patient it will take me a few days. Sources are CES 2018 podcasts, interviews and articles. Being different points of view and sources I will write only the facts, not wonderings.
BlackSharkfr said:
-it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs
-it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel
In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs.
It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution.
It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete.

No, no and no.
I'm creating an extensive article about Ultra-D. Added costs will be only 5%. MILLIONS of 8K Ultra-D panels will be distributed this year. Adding this to the Red Hydrogen One with 4 view format, better 3D content will arrive (and a lot of volumetric content produced for VR can be easily converted to 3D or 4 view) the traditional 3D will be obsolete. And that Depth can be easily added using a single alpha layer to 2d image, 3D will no longer occupy twice, depth can be embedded on 2d images, that will still appear as 2d for users using 2d screens, but on depth screens will view better 3D than the traditional "2 views 3D". So better 3d content is arriving this year. Also, a gaming Ultra-D pc monitor is coming this year, so in 2019 nvidia 3d vision could be obsolete and maybe we will be discussing about depth games on another forum about ultra-D instead on nvidia 3d vision forum.

Article will be very long and in 3 languages, so be patient it will take me a few days. Sources are CES 2018 podcasts, interviews and articles. Being different points of view and sources I will write only the facts, not wonderings.

#10
Posted 01/30/2018 09:08 AM   
I am really looking foward to see these kind of screens in action, i already had a chance to see a glasses free tv in real, it was many years ago (like 8 or something) it had the 3D effect but only if look at it from certain angle. I wish this new 3D glasses free screen become amazing and accepted by the general public.
I am really looking foward to see these kind of screens in action, i already had a chance to see a glasses free tv in real, it was many years ago (like 8 or something) it had the 3D effect but only if look at it from certain angle.
I wish this new 3D glasses free screen become amazing and accepted by the general public.

#11
Posted 01/30/2018 01:11 PM   
Yea but will they work with GPU and software companies to make it game compatible??
Yea but will they work with GPU and software companies to make it game compatible??

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#12
Posted 01/30/2018 01:47 PM   
[quote="djkano"]traditional 3D will be obsolete[/quote] I'll take that with a grain of salt, seeing is believing. Time will tell.
djkano said:traditional 3D will be obsolete


I'll take that with a grain of salt, seeing is believing.

Time will tell.

#13
Posted 01/30/2018 02:33 PM   
[quote="lou4612"]Yea but will they work with GPU and software companies to make it game compatible?? [/quote] They're are developing a simple code for Unreal engine so games can use depth easily. I said to them that will be better to join with Unreal and integrate that code on the engine, so every Unreal game will have depth.
lou4612 said:Yea but will they work with GPU and software companies to make it game compatible??

They're are developing a simple code for Unreal engine so games can use depth easily. I said to them that will be better to join with Unreal and integrate that code on the engine, so every Unreal game will have depth.

#14
Posted 02/11/2018 03:59 AM   
[quote="djkano"][quote="BlackSharkfr"] -it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs -it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs. It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution. It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete.[/quote] No, no and no. I'm creating an [b]extensive[/b] article about Ultra-D. Added costs will be only 5%. MILLIONS of 8K Ultra-D panels will be distributed this year. Adding this to the Red Hydrogen One with 4 view format, better 3D content will arrive (and a lot of volumetric content produced for VR can be easily converted to 3D or 4 view) the traditional 3D will be obsolete. And that Depth can be easily added using a single alpha layer to 2d image, 3D will no longer occupy twice, depth can be embedded on 2d images, that will still appear as 2d for users using 2d screens, but on depth screens will view better 3D than the traditional "2 views 3D". So better 3d content is arriving this year. Also, a gaming Ultra-D pc monitor is coming this year, so in 2019 nvidia 3d vision could be obsolete and maybe we will be discussing about [b]depth [/b]games on another forum about ultra-D instead on nvidia 3d vision forum. Article will be very long and in 3 languages, so be patient it will take me a few days. Sources are CES 2018 podcasts, interviews and articles. Being different points of view and sources I will write only the facts, not wonderings.[/quote] -> Switching from 4K screen to 8K screens + optical layer to only cost 5%... Sorry but I don't believe it will happen at that price on year one. nor two, not three. Maybe five year after the tech is widely distributed ? -> Millions of 8K panels distributed this year... If every single TV manufacturer at CES had an UltraD-style TV, it could happen two years from now. Remember the long ramp up to 3D stereo and 4K releases ? -> Converting VR content to Ultra-D... Technically, if you have a real time rendering system, you can render any format you want. But VR content is different from fixed point TV content, you can't switch from one to the other. It's like comparing a statue to a painting, it does not work : they're different mediums. -> Any idea that 2D + depth = replacement for stereo Also called Z-buffer 3D, Tridef's Power3D, Nvidia 3D Vision's Compatibility mode, mathematically it works but has severe limitations : inferior rendering quality (sampling not matching the pixel's actual position), missing data due to occlusion (what's behind that object one eye can see but the other eye can't see), single depth per pixel (transparency issues) etc... It takes a very talented team of hollywood special effects specialists to convert a 2D movie into quality 3D. Don't expect miracles from a real time algorithm. I'm not selling my stereoscopic system any time soon. -> 3D no longer occupying twice ... something (file size ?) It's already not the case thanks to existing standardized codecs codecs like MVC (which nobody uses because we have plenty of data to spare) 2D + depth is not enough to produce quality content, you also need a sophisticated occlusion resolving system which adds just as much data as what you are trying to save. [quote="djkano"]They're are developing a simple code for Unreal engine so games can use depth easily. I said to them that will be better to join with Unreal and integrate that code on the engine, so every Unreal game will have depth.[/quote] At the height of the 3D stereo hype, there was a similar simple code in every game engine out there. And not just a third party plugin, it was official 1st party support. Unreal Engine ditched it completely when they cleaned up their code for UE4, because hardly anyone used them. Screen support is easy. Making content for the media is the hard part, and you need developers to commit to 3D for good results. (or very nice shader hackers willing to spend a lot of their time cleaning up the mess)
djkano said:
BlackSharkfr said:
-it requires a base panel with significantly more pixels than the 2D equivalent, meaning a significant extra cost to compete with regular 2DTVs
-it requires a very complex lenticular array to be added on top of the panel
In other words... It can't complete with 2DTVs.
It will stay the same as long as 2DTVs use the resolution.
It cannot take off with current 4K panels because there is 4K 2D content. UltraD would require an 8K panel or more to compete.

No, no and no.
I'm creating an extensive article about Ultra-D. Added costs will be only 5%. MILLIONS of 8K Ultra-D panels will be distributed this year. Adding this to the Red Hydrogen One with 4 view format, better 3D content will arrive (and a lot of volumetric content produced for VR can be easily converted to 3D or 4 view) the traditional 3D will be obsolete. And that Depth can be easily added using a single alpha layer to 2d image, 3D will no longer occupy twice, depth can be embedded on 2d images, that will still appear as 2d for users using 2d screens, but on depth screens will view better 3D than the traditional "2 views 3D". So better 3d content is arriving this year. Also, a gaming Ultra-D pc monitor is coming this year, so in 2019 nvidia 3d vision could be obsolete and maybe we will be discussing about depth games on another forum about ultra-D instead on nvidia 3d vision forum.

Article will be very long and in 3 languages, so be patient it will take me a few days. Sources are CES 2018 podcasts, interviews and articles. Being different points of view and sources I will write only the facts, not wonderings.

-> Switching from 4K screen to 8K screens + optical layer to only cost 5%...
Sorry but I don't believe it will happen at that price on year one. nor two, not three. Maybe five year after the tech is widely distributed ?

-> Millions of 8K panels distributed this year...
If every single TV manufacturer at CES had an UltraD-style TV, it could happen two years from now. Remember the long ramp up to 3D stereo and 4K releases ?

-> Converting VR content to Ultra-D...
Technically, if you have a real time rendering system, you can render any format you want. But VR content is different from fixed point TV content, you can't switch from one to the other. It's like comparing a statue to a painting, it does not work : they're different mediums.

-> Any idea that 2D + depth = replacement for stereo
Also called Z-buffer 3D, Tridef's Power3D, Nvidia 3D Vision's Compatibility mode, mathematically it works but has severe limitations : inferior rendering quality (sampling not matching the pixel's actual position), missing data due to occlusion (what's behind that object one eye can see but the other eye can't see), single depth per pixel (transparency issues) etc...
It takes a very talented team of hollywood special effects specialists to convert a 2D movie into quality 3D. Don't expect miracles from a real time algorithm. I'm not selling my stereoscopic system any time soon.

-> 3D no longer occupying twice ... something (file size ?)
It's already not the case thanks to existing standardized codecs codecs like MVC (which nobody uses because we have plenty of data to spare)

2D + depth is not enough to produce quality content, you also need a sophisticated occlusion resolving system which adds just as much data as what you are trying to save.

djkano said:They're are developing a simple code for Unreal engine so games can use depth easily. I said to them that will be better to join with Unreal and integrate that code on the engine, so every Unreal game will have depth.

At the height of the 3D stereo hype, there was a similar simple code in every game engine out there. And not just a third party plugin, it was official 1st party support.
Unreal Engine ditched it completely when they cleaned up their code for UE4, because hardly anyone used them.

Screen support is easy. Making content for the media is the hard part, and you need developers to commit to 3D for good results. (or very nice shader hackers willing to spend a lot of their time cleaning up the mess)

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#15
Posted 02/11/2018 08:58 PM   
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