Nvidia Ground Loop. Noise under load.
  2 / 5    
Having not previously heard the exact sound that GibsonRed is hearing nor being able to hands on troubleshoot the problem ourselves, one can only guess and throw out some suggestions. I had a noise that was manifesting through the speakers, a new power supply fixed it for me. It was under load, but was random and infrequent. I think it was a cold solder problem, I redid the joints and placed it in another PC without issues. But it could also be due to the lesser power requirements of the older PC. It worked out nice, because the other PC had a power supply that was given to me and had a fan from hell, that was extremely loud. For those that do not know what coil whine is, the following videos explain and show it fairly well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7HsXHqtxrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP73edpQwgc Here's a video showing a PSU coil whine, you can see that both PSUs are garbage. But the thing to take into account is that one is better than the other. This could possibly be due to better components or it could be due to a higher wattage rating, thus it's not working as hard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xC5YZQMPX4 Coil whines are audible with PC audio off and you can read many posts by people, where they were able to hear their coil whine above normal listening levels while gaming. So it's not always subtle. bo3b is right by saying that coil whine is not being transferred through the speakers, rather it's the coil frequencies that are being picked up in these rare cases. Turning on V-sync will often lessen or eliminate coil whine, because the whine typically increases with high frame rates due to the higher power demands/flow. Now having seen his video, it does appear to be due to the coil frequencies being transfered and via some type electromagnetic interference or ground loop issue if he's using a USB sound card. If you are still using a USB sound card, a USB isolator could possibly do the trick. Or you might be picking up the noise through poor shielding. Unplug things to see if it makes a difference or try moving them to a different port. When I was using my usb sound card, I had it plugged into my front header in a USB 2.0 input and it was giving me feedback somewhat like your experiencing. My case was first gen USB 3 and had a cable that ran out the back and then back in along the top to the frornt USB 3 port. Unplugging this virtually eliminated the problem but it was still there. So I moved the sound card to a motherboard USB slot and it was still there, unplugging the front header, eliminated it entirely. So the whole problem for me, was cheap ass un-shielded wires for the header panel in my Azza case picking up interference. BTW GibsonRed, I like your case. If you decide to go with something bigger, check out that In Win Tou 2.0. that uses tempered glass and has touch controls. On Youtube search L3p Tòu - not a casemod .. just a build
Having not previously heard the exact sound that GibsonRed is hearing nor being able to hands on troubleshoot the problem ourselves, one can only guess and throw out some suggestions. I had a noise that was manifesting through the speakers, a new power supply fixed it for me. It was under load, but was random and infrequent.

I think it was a cold solder problem, I redid the joints and placed it in another PC without issues. But it could also be due to the lesser power requirements of the older PC. It worked out nice, because the other PC had a power supply that was given to me and had a fan from hell, that was extremely loud.

For those that do not know what coil whine is, the following videos explain and show it fairly well.




Here's a video showing a PSU coil whine, you can see that both PSUs are garbage. But the thing to take into account is that one is better than the other. This could possibly be due to better components or it could be due to a higher wattage rating, thus it's not working as hard.



Coil whines are audible with PC audio off and you can read many posts by people, where they were able to hear their coil whine above normal listening levels while gaming. So it's not always subtle. bo3b is right by saying that coil whine is not being transferred through the speakers, rather it's the coil frequencies that are being picked up in these rare cases.

Turning on V-sync will often lessen or eliminate coil whine, because the whine typically increases with high frame rates due to the higher power demands/flow.

Now having seen his video, it does appear to be due to the coil frequencies being transfered and via some type electromagnetic interference or ground loop issue if he's using a USB sound card. If you are still using a USB sound card, a USB isolator could possibly do the trick. Or you might be picking up the noise through poor shielding. Unplug things to see if it makes a difference or try moving them to a different port. When I was using my usb sound card, I had it plugged into my front header in a USB 2.0 input and it was giving me feedback somewhat like your experiencing. My case was first gen USB 3 and had a cable that ran out the back and then back in along the top to the frornt USB 3 port. Unplugging this virtually eliminated the problem but it was still there. So I moved the sound card to a motherboard USB slot and it was still there, unplugging the front header, eliminated it entirely. So the whole problem for me, was cheap ass un-shielded wires for the header panel in my Azza case picking up interference.

BTW GibsonRed, I like your case. If you decide to go with something bigger, check out that In Win Tou 2.0. that uses tempered glass and has touch controls. On Youtube search L3p Tòu - not a casemod .. just a build

#16
Posted 02/18/2017 05:15 PM   
You also might want to try the Spread Spectrum settings in the BIOS which are designed to mitigate EMI. It is conceivable that spreading the spectrum on the PCIe lanes would have an impact on the problem - i.e it may not be the card itself, but the connections to the card on the motherboard. I am still unclear how you are connecting your amplifier to your PC - I was going to suggest an experiment where you wrap the water cooled card and/or your sound card (are you using integrated audio?) in a few layers of aluminium foil to simulate a shield to see if it mitigates the interference. What modern motherboards do is isolate the integrated audio with a shield t one side of the motherboard. Don't give up on your PC or 3D Vision man! Also, surprised a man such yourself who always advocates the best and most immersive solutions, uses consoles. Eww! ;-)
You also might want to try the Spread Spectrum settings in the BIOS which are designed to mitigate EMI. It is conceivable that spreading the spectrum on the PCIe lanes would have an impact on the problem - i.e it may not be the card itself, but the connections to the card on the motherboard.

I am still unclear how you are connecting your amplifier to your PC - I was going to suggest an experiment where you wrap the water cooled card and/or your sound card (are you using integrated audio?) in a few layers of aluminium foil to simulate a shield to see if it mitigates the interference. What modern motherboards do is isolate the integrated audio with a shield t one side of the motherboard.

Don't give up on your PC or 3D Vision man!

Also, surprised a man such yourself who always advocates the best and most immersive solutions, uses consoles. Eww! ;-)

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#17
Posted 02/18/2017 07:36 PM   
I've only seen USB isolators that use external power supplies, but I came across this on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNyINuo-Uw
I've only seen USB isolators that use external power supplies, but I came across this on youtube.

#18
Posted 02/18/2017 10:53 PM   
What happens when you Mute the audio? i.e. leave everything plugged in when it's making noise, but mute the audio either in PC, or turning volume to zero on Marantz? Your video is hard to hear the audio, but that sounds more like classic video card coil whine, not EMI pickup.
What happens when you Mute the audio? i.e. leave everything plugged in when it's making noise, but mute the audio either in PC, or turning volume to zero on Marantz?


Your video is hard to hear the audio, but that sounds more like classic video card coil whine, not EMI pickup.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#19
Posted 02/19/2017 12:46 AM   
The audio is muted I n the video I posted bo3b. Just tried my mates old 680 air cooled........still buzzes. Going to swap the power supply out today...
The audio is muted I n the video I posted bo3b.
Just tried my mates old 680 air cooled........still buzzes.
Going to swap the power supply out today...

#20
Posted 02/19/2017 12:40 PM   
Just another thought, probably have already... but have you checked the outlet(s) they're connected to? I've had issues, not PC related but interference related in the past, where it was due to the outlet not being wired/grounded properly... ever since then I always test the outlets before hooking stuff up.
Just another thought, probably have already... but have you checked the outlet(s) they're connected to?

I've had issues, not PC related but interference related in the past, where it was due to the outlet not being wired/grounded properly... ever since then I always test the outlets before hooking stuff up.
#21
Posted 02/19/2017 01:52 PM   
Ive tied moving the outlet and tried just plugging in the marantz amp and pc into a ups and just using one speaker and it still does the same thing! Half through putting a new PSU in now.
Ive tied moving the outlet and tried just plugging in the marantz amp and pc into a ups and just using one speaker and it still does the same thing!

Half through putting a new PSU in now.

#22
Posted 02/19/2017 02:15 PM   
Tried a different PSU and it still buzzes. Tried the PSU out of the case (both of them) still buzzes. Tried unplugging the pump for a few seconds in game, still buzzes. Tried moving the pc/amp and one speaker to a different room. Used the same outlet. Hdmi out of gfx card into amp. Hdmi out of amp to TV. Still buzzes! It's either the amp, (which doesn't buzz with the Xbox or Wii attached) the motherboard or the case. Might be the monoblock CPU cooler??? This is doing my head in! Always when the card is under load! Going to try and old PC I have. I'll put the 680 in and see if it does the same! If this doesn't work I'll get an AMD card and try it. If that doesn't work I might just build a newn PC or try and persuade a mate to brings theirs round and try it. Any other suggestions? EDIT - i did notice that the sound got significantly louder when I unplugged the hdmi going from the amp to the TV. I have my monitors set at unity gain and can turn them down to minimise the noise but this is not ideal. Maybe this amp or nvidia built in sound card just had a terrible noise floor? Maybe dirty power, but surely it would do the same with the Xbox and Wii U? My guitar amps are pretty quiet so I doubt it's dirty power?!?
Tried a different PSU and it still buzzes.
Tried the PSU out of the case (both of them) still buzzes.
Tried unplugging the pump for a few seconds in game, still buzzes.
Tried moving the pc/amp and one speaker to a different room. Used the same outlet. Hdmi out of gfx card into amp.
Hdmi out of amp to TV. Still buzzes!

It's either the amp, (which doesn't buzz with the Xbox or Wii attached) the motherboard or the case.
Might be the monoblock CPU cooler???
This is doing my head in!
Always when the card is under load!
Going to try and old PC I have. I'll put the 680 in and see if it does the same!

If this doesn't work I'll get an AMD card and try it.
If that doesn't work I might just build a newn PC or try and persuade a mate to brings theirs round and try it.

Any other suggestions?

EDIT - i did notice that the sound got significantly louder when I unplugged the hdmi going from the amp to the TV.
I have my monitors set at unity gain and can turn them down to minimise the noise but this is not ideal.
Maybe this amp or nvidia built in sound card just had a terrible noise floor?
Maybe dirty power, but surely it would do the same with the Xbox and Wii U?
My guitar amps are pretty quiet so I doubt it's dirty power?!?

#23
Posted 02/19/2017 05:08 PM   
Interesting you said it was similar to an old Xonar in an old PC. I had those Xonar issues and the popular solution was to isolate the Xonar card so the metal bracket didn't make direct contact with the PC case. Like many people, this addressed my issue of having awful interference when the GPU started kicking in under load. Wonder if it's something similar? I take it you're using onboard audio? Is there anything else you can isolate from making direct contact with the PC case? I suppose you could try making sure your GPU bracket didn't make contact, but I'm not sure how practical that would be to try.
Interesting you said it was similar to an old Xonar in an old PC. I had those Xonar issues and the popular solution was to isolate the Xonar card so the metal bracket didn't make direct contact with the PC case. Like many people, this addressed my issue of having awful interference when the GPU started kicking in under load.

Wonder if it's something similar? I take it you're using onboard audio? Is there anything else you can isolate from making direct contact with the PC case? I suppose you could try making sure your GPU bracket didn't make contact, but I'm not sure how practical that would be to try.

#24
Posted 02/19/2017 05:21 PM   
I'll give it a go. Thanks for the suggestion. I had a Xonar that did the same a fair few years back. I upgraded to an RME fireface as it had balanced outputs which solved all the issues. As I'm using 11 active speakers (powered speakers) and the marantz has balanced outputs, I'm at my wits end with this. I'm building up and old PC and I'll try the 680 in that and see if it does it. What a ball ache. Two solid days I've spent on this! That's PS4 Pro option is looking better by the second!
I'll give it a go. Thanks for the suggestion.

I had a Xonar that did the same a fair few years back. I upgraded to an RME fireface as it had balanced outputs which solved all the issues.

As I'm using 11 active speakers (powered speakers) and the marantz has balanced outputs, I'm at my wits end with this.

I'm building up and old PC and I'll try the 680 in that and see if it does it.

What a ball ache. Two solid days I've spent on this!

That's PS4 Pro option is looking better by the second!

#25
Posted 02/19/2017 06:07 PM   
[quote="GibsonRed"]The audio is muted I n the video I posted bo3b. Just tried my mates old 680 air cooled........still buzzes. Going to swap the power supply out today...[/quote] Because this happens with no volume, are you [i]certain [/i]that it is coming from the amp? For some sounds it can be very difficult to figure out location. It doesn't seem to be video card related exactly, because you swapped cards and it still happens. But not with Intel graphics. You are using external USB audio, right? What do you hear by listening to the stereo output jack?
GibsonRed said:The audio is muted I n the video I posted bo3b.
Just tried my mates old 680 air cooled........still buzzes.
Going to swap the power supply out today...

Because this happens with no volume, are you certain that it is coming from the amp?

For some sounds it can be very difficult to figure out location.


It doesn't seem to be video card related exactly, because you swapped cards and it still happens. But not with Intel graphics.

You are using external USB audio, right? What do you hear by listening to the stereo output jack?

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#26
Posted 02/20/2017 01:52 AM   
I'm using the nvidia 980ti gfx card as my soundcard. I bitstream audio over HDMI to the marantz pre processor. I have a hdmi output on the marantz pre/pro (this doesn't contain power amps) for video, which goes to my projector. My active speakers (I.e powered with built in amps) are connected through balanced XLR cables to the marantz balanced outputs. I don't even have on board sound as I didn't install the soundcard module on my Asus ROG Impact VII ITX board. You can see in the video there isn't much room in that corsair air240 case. I'll try the 680 in the other pc when I get a chance. I tired covering the backplate of the gfx card in electrical tape and it still buzzes. I'm thinking it could be the EK waterblock on the cpu. I had to change the back plate and I'm wondering if it's touching the bottom of the case or something.
I'm using the nvidia 980ti gfx card as my soundcard.
I bitstream audio over HDMI to the marantz pre processor.
I have a hdmi output on the marantz pre/pro (this doesn't contain power amps) for video, which goes to my projector.
My active speakers (I.e powered with built in amps) are connected through balanced XLR cables to the marantz balanced outputs.

I don't even have on board sound as I didn't install the soundcard module on my Asus ROG Impact VII ITX board.
You can see in the video there isn't much room in that corsair air240 case.

I'll try the 680 in the other pc when I get a chance.

I tired covering the backplate of the gfx card in electrical tape and it still buzzes.

I'm thinking it could be the EK waterblock on the cpu. I had to change the back plate and I'm wondering if it's touching the bottom of the case or something.

#27
Posted 02/20/2017 02:42 AM   
Nvidia recently went from HD Audio Driver - 1.3.34.17 to HD Audio Driver - 1.3.34.21, perhaps it could be playing into the issue or corrupted audio driver install? I feel your pain, because it drove me crazy when my system was acting up. Any changes using the 680?
Nvidia recently went from HD Audio Driver - 1.3.34.17 to HD Audio Driver - 1.3.34.21, perhaps it could be playing into the issue or corrupted audio driver install?

I feel your pain, because it drove me crazy when my system was acting up.

Any changes using the 680?

#28
Posted 02/20/2017 04:08 PM   
[quote="GibsonRed"]I'm using the nvidia 980ti gfx card as my soundcard. I bitstream audio over HDMI to the marantz pre processor. I have a hdmi output on the marantz pre/pro (this doesn't contain power amps) for video, which goes to my projector. My active speakers (I.e powered with built in amps) are connected through balanced XLR cables to the marantz balanced outputs.[/quote] That means that the audio signal itself is [i]digital[/i]. There is no way that EMI can affect a digital signal here. If that were true, your digital computer would crash left and right all the time. That means that the buzzing is coming from something downstream. Maybe. It still makes no sense that it changes pitch based on GPU load. I ask again: are you [i]certain [/i]that it is coming from the amp? What about headphones plugged into the amp? The goal needs to be narrowing down the components implicated in the problem. [quote]I don't even have on board sound as I didn't install the soundcard module on my Asus ROG Impact VII ITX board. You can see in the video there isn't much room in that corsair air240 case. I'll try the 680 in the other pc when I get a chance. I tired covering the backplate of the gfx card in electrical tape and it still buzzes. I'm thinking it could be the EK waterblock on the cpu. I had to change the back plate and I'm wondering if it's touching the bottom of the case or something.[/quote] That is not logical that it would be the waterblock on the CPU. None of your experiments implicate the CPU at all. Same CPU, same waterblock, using Intel- no buzzing. Buzzing related to GPU load, not CPU load.
GibsonRed said:I'm using the nvidia 980ti gfx card as my soundcard.
I bitstream audio over HDMI to the marantz pre processor.
I have a hdmi output on the marantz pre/pro (this doesn't contain power amps) for video, which goes to my projector.
My active speakers (I.e powered with built in amps) are connected through balanced XLR cables to the marantz balanced outputs.

That means that the audio signal itself is digital. There is no way that EMI can affect a digital signal here. If that were true, your digital computer would crash left and right all the time.

That means that the buzzing is coming from something downstream. Maybe. It still makes no sense that it changes pitch based on GPU load.

I ask again: are you certain that it is coming from the amp?

What about headphones plugged into the amp?

The goal needs to be narrowing down the components implicated in the problem.


I don't even have on board sound as I didn't install the soundcard module on my Asus ROG Impact VII ITX board.
You can see in the video there isn't much room in that corsair air240 case.

I'll try the 680 in the other pc when I get a chance.

I tired covering the backplate of the gfx card in electrical tape and it still buzzes.

I'm thinking it could be the EK waterblock on the cpu. I had to change the back plate and I'm wondering if it's touching the bottom of the case or something.

That is not logical that it would be the waterblock on the CPU. None of your experiments implicate the CPU at all. Same CPU, same waterblock, using Intel- no buzzing. Buzzing related to GPU load, not CPU load.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#29
Posted 02/21/2017 02:42 AM   
bo3b has a great point that it can't be a computer component as there is no analogue processing in the case itself - We still don't know how things are connected down the line. This connections overview should have been in the first post; and my 2 previous posts requesting this information have been ignored. Does it not seem like marantz pre/pro is the problem as this is what does the primary digital to analogue conversion for the speakers? Or are the speakers also connected digitally? It could be that some of the channels without any signals are left floating. Which channels is the problem coming from?
bo3b has a great point that it can't be a computer component as there is no analogue processing in the case itself - We still don't know how things are connected down the line. This connections overview should have been in the first post; and my 2 previous posts requesting this information have been ignored.

Does it not seem like marantz pre/pro is the problem as this is what does the primary digital to analogue conversion for the speakers? Or are the speakers also connected digitally?

It could be that some of the channels without any signals are left floating. Which channels is the problem coming from?

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#30
Posted 02/21/2017 03:43 AM   
  2 / 5    
Scroll To Top