Why 3D spoiled games for me
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I have been playing in 3-D for quite some time now. Even though it is still a great experience, it also shows the lack of variety in games. When you play a current game in 3-D, you notice the limitations and (invisible) borders even more. You notice how flat the ground is in particular, how unnatural the game looks in general; you notice, how small the levels are. Even though it is in 3-D, you rarely feel immersed. On the flipside, when you're watching a 3-D movie that has no computer generated image effects at all, you can really become immersed. If you watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CROLAp1enro with your 3-D device, you almost have the impression of being there. To conclude, this is not about the drawbacks of 3-D displays. This is about the drawbacks of virtual realities. Whenever two video cameras are involved and real people are being filmed with two cameras in parallel, it has the potential for being immersive.
I have been playing in 3-D for quite some time now. Even though it is still a great experience, it also shows the lack of variety in games. When you play a current game in 3-D, you notice the limitations and (invisible) borders even more. You notice how flat the ground is in particular, how unnatural the game looks in general; you notice, how small the levels are. Even though it is in 3-D, you rarely feel immersed.

On the flipside, when you're watching a 3-D movie that has no computer generated image effects at all, you can really become immersed. If you watch



with your 3-D device, you almost have the impression of being there.

To conclude, this is not about the drawbacks of 3-D displays. This is about the drawbacks of virtual realities. Whenever two video cameras are involved and real people are being filmed with two cameras in parallel, it has the potential for being immersive.

#1
Posted 03/22/2014 04:44 PM   
The same applies when doing a comparison between watching a 2d-film and playing a game in 2d. It's the limits of technology and the artists efforts. There are plenty of examples where games can surely be immersive enough (enhanced by stereoscopy) so i'm not sure what you mean by that it have ruined anything. If something it should rather be the hazzles to make it work and the less proper support once the intial sales were over... Feeling real isn't necessary connected to something being immersive or not (stuffs created in someones fantasy and realised in a game/movie doesnt have a reference in real life). The normal world that we live in can sometimes be a tad boring. I agree about the lack of innovative spirit in later games. It's just the same thing over and over...
The same applies when doing a comparison between watching a 2d-film and playing a game in 2d. It's the limits of technology and the artists efforts.
There are plenty of examples where games can surely be immersive enough (enhanced by stereoscopy) so i'm not sure what you mean by that it have ruined anything. If something it should rather be the hazzles to make it work and the less proper support once the intial sales were over...
Feeling real isn't necessary connected to something being immersive or not (stuffs created in someones fantasy and realised in a game/movie doesnt have a reference in real life). The normal world that we live in can sometimes be a tad boring.
I agree about the lack of innovative spirit in later games. It's just the same thing over and over...

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#2
Posted 03/22/2014 04:59 PM   
I see, we need examples. I start with the current thief game. Even though it's claimed, that the current thief game was an open-world game, you cannot access most of it's flats. Sometimes there's a window(one that always looks the same way) that you can open. In general only a few opponents are walking around, it is not crowded at all. Having 3-D in place you notice that the buildings are small. You get a better understanding of the surrounding when you see it in stereoscopic three dimensions. In 3-D you notice, that the game mainly consists of known items. You have the cabinet that you can hide in being spread within the level. The guards are just clones. Almost nothing, that is unnecessary but would contribute to immersion is present. Or use Zeno Clash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2_plw1qUSY Using 3-D you notice, that every plant is rather a low polygon cylinder than anything because texture tricks don't work so well with 3-D. You notice clearly that this is just a low polygon item with a high resolution texture on top of it. You notice, that the grounds are really flat, and that the levels look more or less fake. The same with splinter cell blacklist.
I see, we need examples.

I start with the current thief game. Even though it's claimed, that the current thief game was an open-world game, you cannot access most of it's flats. Sometimes there's a window(one that always looks the same way) that you can open. In general only a few opponents are walking around, it is not crowded at all. Having 3-D in place you notice that the buildings are small. You get a better understanding of the surrounding when you see it in stereoscopic three dimensions. In 3-D you notice, that the game mainly consists of known items. You have the cabinet that you can hide in being spread within the level. The guards are just clones. Almost nothing, that is unnecessary but would contribute to immersion is present.

Or use Zeno Clash.



Using 3-D you notice, that every plant is rather a low polygon cylinder than anything because texture tricks don't work so well with 3-D. You notice clearly that this is just a low polygon item with a high resolution texture on top of it. You notice, that the grounds are really flat, and that the levels look more or less fake.

The same with splinter cell blacklist.

#3
Posted 03/22/2014 05:29 PM   
I can't say that i have noticed more graphical shortcuts in 3d because i see them in 2d as well. Movements (your own or the objects) enhances the ability to see those shortcuts, probably even more than stereoscopy itself. Your point that stereoscopy even further helps making these visible is probably valid though. I still do not see how graphical shortcuts like these spoils the experience more in s-3d compared with 2d. As said it's the limit of the technology and artists efforts, in these examples more the latter. It's hardly the fault of stereoscopy. :)
I can't say that i have noticed more graphical shortcuts in 3d because i see them in 2d as well. Movements (your own or the objects) enhances the ability to see those shortcuts, probably even more than stereoscopy itself. Your point that stereoscopy even further helps making these visible is probably valid though.
I still do not see how graphical shortcuts like these spoils the experience more in s-3d compared with 2d. As said it's the limit of the technology and artists efforts, in these examples more the latter. It's hardly the fault of stereoscopy. :)

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#4
Posted 03/22/2014 05:52 PM   
Anything will have drawbacks and in the context of 3D, the experience far outweigh 2D gaming. Now that I have been playing 3D games for some time, it's difficult to accept playing games in 2D. Some of things you mentioned are fundamentals in game design. Immersion is up to the gamer and I really do believe we choose at some level to accept short comings to allow us the ability to get lost in a game world. If games are designed with 3D in mind, many abstract concepts are considered. Your example of the new Thief is an example of crappy game design. This comes down to multi platform games and current games have become more linear, hand placed actions as chosen by the developers, context menus with several actions bound to one key, invisible walls (that ticks me off the most) and lack of trust in the gamer to solve things for themselves. I have been recently playing Thief 1/2 and System Shock 2 in 3D and while the graphics are dated, the immersion factor is quite impressive considering some of the technical limitations. I know there is a part of me that let's go of the glaring problems and short comings. But it is my imagination that kicks in to fill those voids for immersion. Looking Glass, the developers of the original Thief series managed to make a game with excellent art direction, game mechanics and environments that induced problem solving for the gamer. These are abstract at some level and many current games are dumbed down. Some will argue this point, but I stand by it. Current games are less imaginative. Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing. What will be important for this to change gaming as we know it, will come down to game designs as it is specific to VR. Game mechanics are one thing, but creativity is another. I hope VR will take us forward in gaming and eliminate some of the short comings you mentioned in 3D gaming. I can see one day 3D Vision will go extinct like the do do bird...
Anything will have drawbacks and in the context of 3D, the experience far outweigh 2D gaming. Now that I have been playing 3D games for some time, it's difficult to accept playing games in 2D. Some of things you mentioned are fundamentals in game design. Immersion is up to the gamer and I really do believe we choose at some level to accept short comings to allow us the ability to get lost in a game world. If games are designed with 3D in mind, many abstract concepts are considered. Your example of the new Thief is an example of crappy game design. This comes down to multi platform games and current games have become more linear, hand placed actions as chosen by the developers, context menus with several actions bound to one key, invisible walls (that ticks me off the most) and lack of trust in the gamer to solve things for themselves. I have been recently playing Thief 1/2 and System Shock 2 in 3D and while the graphics are dated, the immersion factor is quite impressive considering some of the technical limitations. I know there is a part of me that let's go of the glaring problems and short comings. But it is my imagination that kicks in to fill those voids for immersion. Looking Glass, the developers of the original Thief series managed to make a game with excellent art direction, game mechanics and environments that induced problem solving for the gamer. These are abstract at some level and many current games are dumbed down. Some will argue this point, but I stand by it. Current games are less imaginative. Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing. What will be important for this to change gaming as we know it, will come down to game designs as it is specific to VR. Game mechanics are one thing, but creativity is another. I hope VR will take us forward in gaming and eliminate some of the short comings you mentioned in 3D gaming. I can see one day 3D Vision will go extinct like the do do bird...

#5
Posted 03/22/2014 06:33 PM   
OP, I am 100% the opposite(in terms of movies vs games). Further, immersion for many people depends heavily on training your brain to put aside the unrealistic bits, just like one ignores plot holes in movies. That said, it is true for me that my personal experiences that have led me to believe that 3D has the capacity to be of such a high quality as be to a view port to a holodeck, are seen in game scenes involving dimly lit environments, such as Metro 2033, where the fakeness of the imagery is hard to make out. On another front, I believe as we get older, we get slightly more accustomed to reality, giving games and movies potentially a little tougher job of suspending our disbelief.
OP, I am 100% the opposite(in terms of movies vs games). Further, immersion for many people depends heavily on training your brain to put aside the unrealistic bits, just like one ignores plot holes in movies.

That said, it is true for me that my personal experiences that have led me to believe that 3D has the capacity to be of such a high quality as be to a view port to a holodeck, are seen in game scenes involving dimly lit environments, such as Metro 2033, where the fakeness of the imagery is hard to make out.

On another front, I believe as we get older, we get slightly more accustomed to reality, giving games and movies potentially a little tougher job of suspending our disbelief.

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#6
Posted 03/22/2014 08:17 PM   
With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.
With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.

#7
Posted 03/23/2014 12:17 AM   
I often notice "incorrect positioning" of objects in 3D [not to mention low res textures]. Like things that don't rest on ground. Like blood, debris, glass, etc. There are often times its like a foot or whatever off the ground. I will notice all types of "things" but it will be gone from my mind in a minute. It doesn't bother me though because I am playing a game [unless consistent]. 3D more then anything to me is a "tool". People throw around the term immersion but I really disagree with that. Its a "tool" for engrossment to me. Borderlands 2, 3D made me more engrossed in the action. Mass Effect/Witcher series, 3D made me more engrossed with story. Dishonored, 3D made me more engrossed in the moment. The Bureau, 3D made me more engrossed in the tactics.[Yes, I know its pretty widely hated. Story/characters are kind of bad but I loved the combat at hardest difficulty. Beat it twice on Commander] -------------------------- [quote="Libertine"]OP, speak for yourself, I am 100% the opposite.[/quote] Lol. [quote="Stryker_66"]Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing. [/quote] Which is ironic because Rift/PS4 is focusing on consumer mass market so its not going to have the power for that kind of detail or even detailed by today's standards. Games will actually look much worse and OP's complaints about quality/lack of detail will actually be much more noticeable. I don't see how two steps backward will lead two steps forward in detail in games. Which has always been a primary focus in gaming. The argument is now that we "need" qualitity more now therefore we will achieve it? Make 0 sense. Hell we "need" quality more now for VR and we got everyone building on Unity. See doesn't work. Real solution for increase quality/detail is no longer in world-wide economic depression... not VR... Then again I am a realist.
I often notice "incorrect positioning" of objects in 3D [not to mention low res textures]. Like things that don't rest on ground. Like blood, debris, glass, etc. There are often times its like a foot or whatever off the ground.
I will notice all types of "things" but it will be gone from my mind in a minute. It doesn't bother me though because I am playing a game [unless consistent].
3D more then anything to me is a "tool". People throw around the term immersion but I really disagree with that. Its a "tool" for engrossment to me.
Borderlands 2, 3D made me more engrossed in the action.
Mass Effect/Witcher series, 3D made me more engrossed with story.
Dishonored, 3D made me more engrossed in the moment.
The Bureau, 3D made me more engrossed in the tactics.[Yes, I know its pretty widely hated. Story/characters are kind of bad but I loved the combat at hardest difficulty. Beat it twice on Commander]

--------------------------
Libertine said:OP, speak for yourself, I am 100% the opposite.

Lol.
Stryker_66 said:Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing.

Which is ironic because Rift/PS4 is focusing on consumer mass market so its not going to have the power for that kind of detail or even detailed by today's standards. Games will actually look much worse and OP's complaints about quality/lack of detail will actually be much more noticeable.
I don't see how two steps backward will lead two steps forward in detail in games. Which has always been a primary focus in gaming. The argument is now that we "need" qualitity more now therefore we will achieve it? Make 0 sense.
Hell we "need" quality more now for VR and we got everyone building on Unity. See doesn't work.

Real solution for increase quality/detail is no longer in world-wide economic depression... not VR... Then again I am a realist.

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#8
Posted 03/23/2014 12:42 AM   
I'm the polar opposite, 3D has spoiled games for me in the sense that I want to play all of them in 3D now ... and it looks really weird to me when I'm not, I'm constantly looking for/wanting depth. [quote="Asta Storm"]With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.[/quote]... sounds like you just need a bigger screen. :)
I'm the polar opposite, 3D has spoiled games for me in the sense that I want to play all of them in 3D now ... and it looks really weird to me when I'm not, I'm constantly looking for/wanting depth.

Asta Storm said:With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.
... sounds like you just need a bigger screen. :)
#9
Posted 03/23/2014 12:43 AM   
While S3D "spoiled" games for me they specifically spoiled 2D games. I just can't play them anymore. - When things are flying at me I want to duck - When I move side to side I want the background to move - I want to 'think' that I can look around something static on the screen While many games have some stunning artwork IMHO they really come "alive" in S3D and I could not imagine playing them anyway else. While VR has a lot of "buzz" and hype behind it these days S3D gaming with a decent 5.1 sound system has brought gaming to a while new level which IMHO a < 30" 2D screen with mouse/kb can't compare to. Funny, somehow wearing a few OZ extra set of glasses is a 'deal breaker' but dawning a clunkly underwater/ski mask is not. (sigh)
While S3D "spoiled" games for me they specifically spoiled 2D games. I just can't play them anymore.

- When things are flying at me I want to duck
- When I move side to side I want the background to move
- I want to 'think' that I can look around something static on the screen

While many games have some stunning artwork IMHO they really come "alive" in S3D and I could not imagine playing them anyway else.

While VR has a lot of "buzz" and hype behind it these days S3D gaming with a decent 5.1 sound system has brought gaming to a while new level which IMHO a < 30" 2D screen with mouse/kb can't compare to.

Funny, somehow wearing a few OZ extra set of glasses is a 'deal breaker' but dawning a clunkly underwater/ski mask is not. (sigh)

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#10
Posted 03/23/2014 02:18 AM   
[quote="eqzitara"]I often notice "incorrect positioning" of objects in 3D [not to mention low res textures]. Like things that don't rest on ground. Like blood, debris, glass, etc. There are often times its like a foot or whatever off the ground. I will notice all types of "things" but it will be gone from my mind in a minute. It doesn't bother me though because I am playing a game [unless consistent]. 3D more then anything to me is a "tool". People throw around the term immersion but I really disagree with that. Its a "tool" for engrossment to me. Borderlands 2, 3D made me more engrossed in the action. Mass Effect/Witcher series, 3D made me more engrossed with story. Dishonored, 3D made me more engrossed in the moment. The Bureau, 3D made me more engrossed in the tactics.[Yes, I know its pretty widely hated. Story/characters are kind of bad but I loved the combat at hardest difficulty. Beat it twice on Commander] -------------------------- [quote="Libertine"]OP, speak for yourself, I am 100% the opposite.[/quote] Lol. [quote="Stryker_66"]Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing. [/quote] Which is ironic because Rift/PS4 is focusing on consumer mass market so its not going to have the power for that kind of detail or even detailed by today's standards. Games will actually look much worse and OP's complaints about quality/lack of detail will actually be much more noticeable. I don't see how two steps backward will lead two steps forward in detail in games. Which has always been a primary focus in gaming. The argument is now that we "need" qualitity more now therefore we will achieve it? Make 0 sense. Hell we "need" quality more now for VR and we got everyone building on Unity. See doesn't work. Real solution for increase quality/detail is no longer in world-wide economic depression... not VR... Then again I am a realist.[/quote] The term immersion is often used in gaming and the word engrossed is somewhat synonomous in this context. Potatoe Potato. VR is far too in it's infancy, but purely from the standpoint of technical evolution, VR seems to be the next logical direction for gaming. While the graphic fidelity and quality may not be there, it is a matter of time when this will be the next notable shift in gaming. What happens in terms of art direction, creativity, graphic quality, immersion factor and whatever improvements that will be sought after will be determined in time. How long that will be is anybodys guess before it's mainstream. VR has been around for awhile, but I think it will catch on now considering some of the big players that are involved in the R & D. I am looking forward to when the criticisms of VR short comings get sorted out. I have plenty of 3D games to keep me busy until then....lol
eqzitara said:I often notice "incorrect positioning" of objects in 3D [not to mention low res textures]. Like things that don't rest on ground. Like blood, debris, glass, etc. There are often times its like a foot or whatever off the ground. I will notice all types of "things" but it will be gone from my mind in a minute. It doesn't bother me though because I am playing a game [unless consistent]. 3D more then anything to me is a "tool". People throw around the term immersion but I really disagree with that. Its a "tool" for engrossment to me. Borderlands 2, 3D made me more engrossed in the action. Mass Effect/Witcher series, 3D made me more engrossed with story. Dishonored, 3D made me more engrossed in the moment. The Bureau, 3D made me more engrossed in the tactics.[Yes, I know its pretty widely hated. Story/characters are kind of bad but I loved the combat at hardest difficulty. Beat it twice on Commander] --------------------------
Libertine said:OP, speak for yourself, I am 100% the opposite.
Lol.
Stryker_66 said:Anyway, I think you are looking for the next evolution in gaming and VR technology is that very thing.
Which is ironic because Rift/PS4 is focusing on consumer mass market so its not going to have the power for that kind of detail or even detailed by today's standards. Games will actually look much worse and OP's complaints about quality/lack of detail will actually be much more noticeable. I don't see how two steps backward will lead two steps forward in detail in games. Which has always been a primary focus in gaming. The argument is now that we "need" qualitity more now therefore we will achieve it? Make 0 sense. Hell we "need" quality more now for VR and we got everyone building on Unity. See doesn't work. Real solution for increase quality/detail is no longer in world-wide economic depression... not VR... Then again I am a realist.


The term immersion is often used in gaming and the word engrossed is somewhat synonomous in this context. Potatoe Potato. VR is far too in it's infancy, but purely from the standpoint of technical evolution, VR seems to be the next logical direction for gaming. While the graphic fidelity and quality may not be there, it is a matter of time when this will be the next notable shift in gaming. What happens in terms of art direction, creativity, graphic quality, immersion factor and whatever improvements that will be sought after will be determined in time. How long that will be is anybodys guess before it's mainstream. VR has been around for awhile, but I think it will catch on now considering some of the big players that are involved in the R & D. I am looking forward to when the criticisms of VR short comings get sorted out. I have plenty of 3D games to keep me busy until then....lol

#11
Posted 03/23/2014 03:10 AM   
OP, sounds to me like you're basically describing the Uncanny Valley effect. The more realistic elements you introduce, the more glaringly the unrealistic bits start standing out. It's a well-known phenomenon in the animation world too. 3D is not the sole cause, but works in synergy with all the other elements - resolution, antialiasing, polygon count, lighting, etc. Games are now at the stage where we can forget momentarily that it's all fake (but as you note: we can't forget for long, and unrealistic bits cause our suspension of disbelief to come crashing down). The problem lies with all aspects of graphics, but it sounds like 3D was just the straw that broke the camel's back for you. But I bet if you turn the resolution down to 640x480, it'll 'fix' your problem, even with 3D enabled ;) The only real solutions are to ride it out until we're beyond the valley, or focus on games that shoot for stylisation rather than realism. CGI animation has arguably started to crawl out of the Uncanny Valley in recent years, but games graphics will continue to be smoke and mirrors for many years to come. And eqzitara's right: VR will just prolong the problem. (Then again, as problems go, it's a nice problem to have). [quote="Asta Storm"]With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.[/quote]People often call it Toyification, and some love it and some hate it. I kind of enjoy it in action games like DmC, where it all feels cartoonish anyway. But I hate it in FPS games where it makes me feel like a tiny midget carrying a massive gun 2 feet off the ground. As people below me have said, it goes away if you lower convergence, because it no longer looks like there's a tiny person under your nose, but rather a full-size person off in the distance. But with lowering convergence comes with the cost of diminishing the overall 3D effect. The best solution to toyification I believe is to use a projector. Nothing's going to look like a doll house if it's taking up almost your entire room.
OP, sounds to me like you're basically describing the Uncanny Valley effect. The more realistic elements you introduce, the more glaringly the unrealistic bits start standing out. It's a well-known phenomenon in the animation world too.

3D is not the sole cause, but works in synergy with all the other elements - resolution, antialiasing, polygon count, lighting, etc. Games are now at the stage where we can forget momentarily that it's all fake (but as you note: we can't forget for long, and unrealistic bits cause our suspension of disbelief to come crashing down).

The problem lies with all aspects of graphics, but it sounds like 3D was just the straw that broke the camel's back for you. But I bet if you turn the resolution down to 640x480, it'll 'fix' your problem, even with 3D enabled ;)

The only real solutions are to ride it out until we're beyond the valley, or focus on games that shoot for stylisation rather than realism.

CGI animation has arguably started to crawl out of the Uncanny Valley in recent years, but games graphics will continue to be smoke and mirrors for many years to come. And eqzitara's right: VR will just prolong the problem. (Then again, as problems go, it's a nice problem to have).

Asta Storm said:With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.
People often call it Toyification, and some love it and some hate it. I kind of enjoy it in action games like DmC, where it all feels cartoonish anyway. But I hate it in FPS games where it makes me feel like a tiny midget carrying a massive gun 2 feet off the ground.

As people below me have said, it goes away if you lower convergence, because it no longer looks like there's a tiny person under your nose, but rather a full-size person off in the distance. But with lowering convergence comes with the cost of diminishing the overall 3D effect.

The best solution to toyification I believe is to use a projector. Nothing's going to look like a doll house if it's taking up almost your entire room.

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#12
Posted 03/23/2014 07:06 AM   
[quote="Asta Storm"]With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.[/quote] Miniaturization. I see this a lot in 3D movies, even on my 90" screen. For 3D Vision, this effect should be avoidable. Most likely you have your convergence set too high. Try turning it down to push objects in the scene deeper behind the screen until they appear to be the right size.
Asta Storm said:With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.


Miniaturization. I see this a lot in 3D movies, even on my 90" screen.

For 3D Vision, this effect should be avoidable. Most likely you have your convergence set too high. Try turning it down to push objects in the scene deeper behind the screen until they appear to be the right size.

#13
Posted 03/23/2014 08:11 AM   
[quote="Asta Storm"]With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.[/quote] Almost sounds like you have your 3D settings set for the dollhouse effect, because you can make a simple gun in your hand look like a cannon if you want to with convergence settings. Everything should look like size, or about (if you want it to). What size screen do you use? That makes a little difference in my experience.
Asta Storm said:With 3D it feels like looking at a doll's house, cause you can see the depth of a scene and therefore how small it really is.


Almost sounds like you have your 3D settings set for the dollhouse effect, because you can make a simple gun in your hand look like a cannon if you want to with convergence settings. Everything should look like size, or about (if you want it to). What size screen do you use? That makes a little difference in my experience.

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#14
Posted 03/23/2014 08:15 AM   
It's annoying to me that people give unsolicited advice. I don't have a problem that needs solving.
It's annoying to me that people give unsolicited advice. I don't have a problem that needs solving.

#15
Posted 03/23/2014 04:14 PM   
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