What 3D 1080p monitor with NO inversion issues should I buy?
I'm going to buy a new monitor and I'd like it to be able to do 3D, but after reading a lot about it, especially the 10-page discussion about the "checkerboard effect" here: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/566852/3d-vision/asus-vg248qe-vg278he-amp-hr-benq-xl270t-checkerboard-pattern-in-3d-mode-no-fullhd-per-frame-/ I'm wondering - are there currently ANY monitors that actually don't have this problem at all? I mean, if that's "normal", then I don't want 3D, especially as people see this issue even in 2D mode on these screens which IMO is just not acceptable. However, some people in the thread I linked to did mention screens that don't have this issue, but these were older screens I can't even find for sale anymore. That said, please tell me: 1. What monitors have no inversion problems, and if there aren't any anymore, which have it the least so it's pretty much not noticeable? 2. IF this issue is mostly exposed by LightBoost, are non-LightBoost screens really so dark in 3D that even if I would manually increase brightness/contrast every time I switch to 3D, it would sill be bad? 3. Can ANY 120Hz monitor do 3D thanks to the 3D Vision 2 set or does it have to be 3D certified and therefore with LightBoost and (probably) with inversion issues?
I'm going to buy a new monitor and I'd like it to be able to do 3D, but after reading a lot about it, especially the 10-page discussion about the "checkerboard effect" here: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/566852/3d-vision/asus-vg248qe-vg278he-amp-hr-benq-xl270t-checkerboard-pattern-in-3d-mode-no-fullhd-per-frame-/ I'm wondering - are there currently ANY monitors that actually don't have this problem at all? I mean, if that's "normal", then I don't want 3D, especially as people see this issue even in 2D mode on these screens which IMO is just not acceptable.

However, some people in the thread I linked to did mention screens that don't have this issue, but these were older screens I can't even find for sale anymore. That said, please tell me:

1. What monitors have no inversion problems, and if there aren't any anymore, which have it the least so it's pretty much not noticeable?

2. IF this issue is mostly exposed by LightBoost, are non-LightBoost screens really so dark in 3D that even if I would manually increase brightness/contrast every time I switch to 3D, it would sill be bad?

3. Can ANY 120Hz monitor do 3D thanks to the 3D Vision 2 set or does it have to be 3D certified and therefore with LightBoost and (probably) with inversion issues?

#1
Posted 12/30/2014 01:14 PM   
The issue is only really present if you're looking very closely for it. I have a VG278H, and while I can notice it if I get close and look for it, normal viewing distances aren't a problem at all. I also have a BenQ W1070 projector, and I can absolutely recommend going for a projector if you can find somewhere to set it up. The immersion from the huge screen is far better than a monitor.
The issue is only really present if you're looking very closely for it. I have a VG278H, and while I can notice it if I get close and look for it, normal viewing distances aren't a problem at all.

I also have a BenQ W1070 projector, and I can absolutely recommend going for a projector if you can find somewhere to set it up. The immersion from the huge screen is far better than a monitor.

#2
Posted 12/30/2014 04:27 PM   
Unfortunately, a projector isn't an option both space-wise and from a practical point of view (I'm talking about a screen to use the whole day every day). As for inversion - I'm sorry, but I have difficulty believing this. After seeing the shots from the other thread, there's no way I could not notice that I'm looking at a 960x540 picture stretched over a 1920x1080 screen which is basically what you see if every second pixel is pretty much "gone". Anyway, if anyone can answer any of my questions above or recommend a monitor with no inversion issues, I'd appreciate it :)
Unfortunately, a projector isn't an option both space-wise and from a practical point of view (I'm talking about a screen to use the whole day every day).

As for inversion - I'm sorry, but I have difficulty believing this. After seeing the shots from the other thread, there's no way I could not notice that I'm looking at a 960x540 picture stretched over a 1920x1080 screen which is basically what you see if every second pixel is pretty much "gone".

Anyway, if anyone can answer any of my questions above or recommend a monitor with no inversion issues, I'd appreciate it :)

#3
Posted 12/30/2014 06:57 PM   
I'm not sure the monitor you're looking for exists. I've read that the 3D vision monitors without lightboost don't suffer from inversion artifacts but do have more ghosting than lightboost monitors. Every solution comes with a sacrifice from my research. The best 3D I've experienced has been checkerboard 1080p on a Samsung 3DTV, it's sharp with minimal ghosting and lag. You can get 1080p 30hz to work on a 120hz TV, then turn on 120hz motion smoothing to get what seems to be 1080p at 60fps but the lag with motion smoothing on is pretty bad. It looks really pretty though. There's always a sacrifice.....
I'm not sure the monitor you're looking for exists. I've read that the 3D vision monitors without lightboost don't suffer from inversion artifacts but do have more ghosting than lightboost monitors. Every solution comes with a sacrifice from my research. The best 3D I've experienced has been checkerboard 1080p on a Samsung 3DTV, it's sharp with minimal ghosting and lag. You can get 1080p 30hz to work on a 120hz TV, then turn on 120hz motion smoothing to get what seems to be 1080p at 60fps but the lag with motion smoothing on is pretty bad. It looks really pretty though. There's always a sacrifice.....

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#4
Posted 12/30/2014 08:59 PM   
[quote="VarHyid"]there's no way I could not notice that I'm looking at a 960x540 picture stretched over a 1920x1080 screen[/quote] I don't think that's actually what's happening with the checkerboarding issue. If you change the resolution to 1280x720 (2D), you can immediately see a significant drop in quality. Yet 3D + 1080P doesn't exhibit the quality drop (even when only looking through one eye). It seems to me like the checkerboarding takes place at a sub-pixel level. As in, it's affecting the individual RGB stripes in each pixel, rather than whole pixels.
VarHyid said:there's no way I could not notice that I'm looking at a 960x540 picture stretched over a 1920x1080 screen


I don't think that's actually what's happening with the checkerboarding issue. If you change the resolution to 1280x720 (2D), you can immediately see a significant drop in quality. Yet 3D + 1080P doesn't exhibit the quality drop (even when only looking through one eye). It seems to me like the checkerboarding takes place at a sub-pixel level. As in, it's affecting the individual RGB stripes in each pixel, rather than whole pixels.

#5
Posted 12/31/2014 04:30 AM   
Check out these 2 pics: [quote]Here is a screenshot of the red-green test image at 70% contrast: [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/3mbw.jpg/]IMAGE 1[/URL] And here is a screenshot of the same image at 100%: [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/55wg.jpg/]IMAGE 2[/URL][/quote] And simply look at the density of these pixels. Even just in the yellow area - does it not clearly look like there are "less points" there? It does to me. It looks like on the "bad" image, there are groups of 2 pixels on, next to them 2 pixels off, then on and in the next line it's all shifted 1 pixel to the right. In fact, on the "bad" image, you can even see the red subpixels and how they're close to the one pixel that's on and missing in the pixel next to it. Try to zoom in all the way through on both images and looking at the yellow part in the bottom-right, focus only on the RED sub-pixels and see how in one image they clearly go in a straight vertical line (every line) and in the second image - they don't. It's so clear in these images, it couldn't be clearer ;)
Check out these 2 pics:

Here is a screenshot of the red-green test image at 70% contrast:
IMAGE 1
And here is a screenshot of the same image at 100%:
IMAGE 2


And simply look at the density of these pixels. Even just in the yellow area - does it not clearly look like there are "less points" there? It does to me. It looks like on the "bad" image, there are groups of 2 pixels on, next to them 2 pixels off, then on and in the next line it's all shifted 1 pixel to the right.

In fact, on the "bad" image, you can even see the red subpixels and how they're close to the one pixel that's on and missing in the pixel next to it. Try to zoom in all the way through on both images and looking at the yellow part in the bottom-right, focus only on the RED sub-pixels and see how in one image they clearly go in a straight vertical line (every line) and in the second image - they don't. It's so clear in these images, it couldn't be clearer ;)

#6
Posted 12/31/2014 12:33 PM   
Actually, you may be right... to some extend. Assuming that in one frame, one group of pixels is off and in the next one, the next group is off and they alternate like this, then I guess in motion, you may indeed still get the illusion of looking at a 1080p picture because technically, you're getting all pixels "fed" into your eyes after 2 frames. Though the argument with 720p is a bit weird because even in 720p, the whole screen is still working it just lays a low-res image on the same 1920x1080 matrix so you're seeing the visual downgrade that comes with 720p, but you're comparing a "checkerboard 720p" to a "checkerboard 1080p", you'd have to use a direct comparison between "checkered 1080p" and "non-checkered 1080p" just like the guy in the other thread did. Either way, I haven't though that shopping for a monitor is going to be so difficult if you involve 3D. Now I'd prefer to get a screen with no LightBoost, pretty much no inversion issues, but... they're no longer for sale, every new-ish 120Hz screen comes with the LightBoost flicker :(
Actually, you may be right... to some extend. Assuming that in one frame, one group of pixels is off and in the next one, the next group is off and they alternate like this, then I guess in motion, you may indeed still get the illusion of looking at a 1080p picture because technically, you're getting all pixels "fed" into your eyes after 2 frames.

Though the argument with 720p is a bit weird because even in 720p, the whole screen is still working it just lays a low-res image on the same 1920x1080 matrix so you're seeing the visual downgrade that comes with 720p, but you're comparing a "checkerboard 720p" to a "checkerboard 1080p", you'd have to use a direct comparison between "checkered 1080p" and "non-checkered 1080p" just like the guy in the other thread did.

Either way, I haven't though that shopping for a monitor is going to be so difficult if you involve 3D. Now I'd prefer to get a screen with no LightBoost, pretty much no inversion issues, but... they're no longer for sale, every new-ish 120Hz screen comes with the LightBoost flicker :(

#7
Posted 12/31/2014 12:44 PM   
The Acer 3D Vision 23 inch model is still for sale, but I can confirm that it has the same issues.
The Acer 3D Vision 23 inch model is still for sale, but I can confirm that it has the same issues.

#8
Posted 12/31/2014 06:40 PM   
What makes you think the checkerboard issue is there in 2D? Even in 3D mode I can only see the checkerboard effect when [b]not[/b] looking through the glasses. As soon as I put the glasses on the effect vanishes. And the bottom line - the games don't look like they're running half resolution at all. I've just tested Skyrim with AA off and if I look at the steps on a near horizontal or near vertical edge, they're the same in 2D and 3D, both single pixel height. Not going to comment on the inversion thing since my screen doesn't have lightboost.
What makes you think the checkerboard issue is there in 2D?

Even in 3D mode I can only see the checkerboard effect when not looking through the glasses. As soon as I put the glasses on the effect vanishes. And the bottom line - the games don't look like they're running half resolution at all. I've just tested Skyrim with AA off and if I look at the steps on a near horizontal or near vertical edge, they're the same in 2D and 3D, both single pixel height.

Not going to comment on the inversion thing since my screen doesn't have lightboost.

#9
Posted 01/01/2015 09:57 PM   
[quote="fish99"]What makes you think the checkerboard issue is there in 2D?[/quote] Information from other people reporting it. In the last week(s), I've spent at least one hour per day just researching monitors and I found posts/comments from people who say that they can also see this in 2D, for example whenever they scroll a page in a browser. Anyway, are you sure you're seeing the "real" checkerboard? Because looking at a 3D screen without glasses will always show checkered picture due to the fact that you're looking at 2 quickly changing images. The point of the checkerboard is that it's apparently visible also with glasses and, as some people say, even in 2D mode on some screens. Honestly, this is all nuts ;) Normally whenever i buy something (anything!), I do some research, narrow down the potential products I may like, watch reviews and buy something all within maybe 2 hours, but this is crazy - now it looks to me like pretty much EVERY 120Hz or 144Hz monitor on the market WILL have this issue and the only way to avoid it is to somehow find an old model that's already discontinued. It's like CeeJayII said earlier - maybe I just need to make sacrifices. Either I get a monitor with awesome picture quality... and 60Hz, or I get a 120Hz screen and never use 3D, but hope I get one that doesn't have these issues even in 2D, or go with 3D and focus on the screen that has the least of these issues, but then I can't be picky when it comes to the overall picture quality. Man, I would have NEVER thought that shopping for monitors can be such a pain if you want anything else than the standard 60Hz full ghosting solution ;)
fish99 said:What makes you think the checkerboard issue is there in 2D?

Information from other people reporting it. In the last week(s), I've spent at least one hour per day just researching monitors and I found posts/comments from people who say that they can also see this in 2D, for example whenever they scroll a page in a browser.

Anyway, are you sure you're seeing the "real" checkerboard? Because looking at a 3D screen without glasses will always show checkered picture due to the fact that you're looking at 2 quickly changing images. The point of the checkerboard is that it's apparently visible also with glasses and, as some people say, even in 2D mode on some screens.

Honestly, this is all nuts ;) Normally whenever i buy something (anything!), I do some research, narrow down the potential products I may like, watch reviews and buy something all within maybe 2 hours, but this is crazy - now it looks to me like pretty much EVERY 120Hz or 144Hz monitor on the market WILL have this issue and the only way to avoid it is to somehow find an old model that's already discontinued.

It's like CeeJayII said earlier - maybe I just need to make sacrifices. Either I get a monitor with awesome picture quality... and 60Hz, or I get a 120Hz screen and never use 3D, but hope I get one that doesn't have these issues even in 2D, or go with 3D and focus on the screen that has the least of these issues, but then I can't be picky when it comes to the overall picture quality. Man, I would have NEVER thought that shopping for monitors can be such a pain if you want anything else than the standard 60Hz full ghosting solution ;)

#10
Posted 01/01/2015 10:29 PM   
Well if you're considering a 120Hz/144Hz screen you're already making a big sacrifice on viewing angles and possibly colour accuracy too (IMO it's worth it to avoid the tearing of 60Hz screens). As for the checkerboard issue, my Asus VG236H definitely has no problems with 2D, I can see the pixels are in a nice regular rectangular array, just as they look on the 60Hz screen on my laptop. If I look at that black/white test image from that thread though (with 3D enabled, but without the glasses), the checkerboard effect is very obvious, but it does seem to disappear when viewed through the glasses. It's worth remembering that when you see photos of the checkerboard effect, they're taken through just one lens of the glasses, whereas your brain is combining two consecutive images from both lenses/eyes into a single stereo image. That's probably why 3D Vision looks 1080p when it may not be sending 1080p to each eye. All this doesn't actually matter though, the bottom line is 3D on my screen looks far better than a 2D image of any resolution. The added immersion from 3D makes any drawbacks it may have irrelevant to me. And to my eyes there's no perceivable drop in resolution from enabling 3D. (of course I can't vouch for any other screens)
Well if you're considering a 120Hz/144Hz screen you're already making a big sacrifice on viewing angles and possibly colour accuracy too (IMO it's worth it to avoid the tearing of 60Hz screens).

As for the checkerboard issue, my Asus VG236H definitely has no problems with 2D, I can see the pixels are in a nice regular rectangular array, just as they look on the 60Hz screen on my laptop. If I look at that black/white test image from that thread though (with 3D enabled, but without the glasses), the checkerboard effect is very obvious, but it does seem to disappear when viewed through the glasses.

It's worth remembering that when you see photos of the checkerboard effect, they're taken through just one lens of the glasses, whereas your brain is combining two consecutive images from both lenses/eyes into a single stereo image. That's probably why 3D Vision looks 1080p when it may not be sending 1080p to each eye.

All this doesn't actually matter though, the bottom line is 3D on my screen looks far better than a 2D image of any resolution. The added immersion from 3D makes any drawbacks it may have irrelevant to me. And to my eyes there's no perceivable drop in resolution from enabling 3D.

(of course I can't vouch for any other screens)

#11
Posted 01/02/2015 04:07 AM   
Whatever you do don't go for an old 3D monitor - the significantly darker image and far greater crosstalk you get is far worse than this checkerboard issue you're worried about. I've just checked my display (Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D display) with a magnifying glass with and without glasses and I don't seem to have this issue - all my pixels are on in 2D and 3D. Having said that, sometimes in the crosstalk I could swear I've seen something that looked a bit like a checkerboard pattern, but there I've got bigger problems to ignore, namely the crosstalk. Edit: Just tried their red/green test pattern in stereo photo viewer and my display definitely does NOT have this issue, so is this maybe limited to certain types of external displays?
Whatever you do don't go for an old 3D monitor - the significantly darker image and far greater crosstalk you get is far worse than this checkerboard issue you're worried about.

I've just checked my display (Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D display) with a magnifying glass with and without glasses and I don't seem to have this issue - all my pixels are on in 2D and 3D. Having said that, sometimes in the crosstalk I could swear I've seen something that looked a bit like a checkerboard pattern, but there I've got bigger problems to ignore, namely the crosstalk.

Edit: Just tried their red/green test pattern in stereo photo viewer and my display definitely does NOT have this issue, so is this maybe limited to certain types of external displays?

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#12
Posted 01/02/2015 04:46 AM   
About the crosstalk and checkerboard, I had three VG278H's. The first didn't have any checkerboard in 2D what so ever. But it did this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KIQAyIEhU&list=UUswhTxoYlQXG8p_xViTl1rQ The crosstalk was worse at the bottom of the screen than the top, it was annoying, really so annoying that after a few months I returned it. The one I got back I didn't even bother to test the crosstalk on it because it had the checkerboard effect in 2D and the colours were shitty, the same could be said of the one I got after that. It wasn't even that I didn't have the options set up the same, I made sure to write the settings I had down and repeated them but it looked totally different on all three monitors. What I'm saying is that they are probably not all the same. You might get a good one, you might not, atleast that was my experience. I just gave up and sold mine. Maybe monitors that aren't the VG278H are different though.
About the crosstalk and checkerboard, I had three VG278H's. The first didn't have any checkerboard in 2D what so ever. But it did this...

;list=UUswhTxoYlQXG8p_xViTl1rQ

The crosstalk was worse at the bottom of the screen than the top, it was annoying, really so annoying that after a few months I returned it. The one I got back I didn't even bother to test the crosstalk on it because it had the checkerboard effect in 2D and the colours were shitty, the same could be said of the one I got after that. It wasn't even that I didn't have the options set up the same, I made sure to write the settings I had down and repeated them but it looked totally different on all three monitors.

What I'm saying is that they are probably not all the same. You might get a good one, you might not, atleast that was my experience. I just gave up and sold mine. Maybe monitors that aren't the VG278H are different though.

#13
Posted 01/02/2015 06:44 AM   
Thanks for your input, much appreciated. I think there's no way around it - I'll just have to buy one, see how it looks and if it's bad, return it (that's the beauty of online purchases). Otherwise, I'll either go crazy or decide not to buy a new monitor, but my current one has the reaction times of a sleeping turtle so I'm tired of ghosting ;)
Thanks for your input, much appreciated. I think there's no way around it - I'll just have to buy one, see how it looks and if it's bad, return it (that's the beauty of online purchases). Otherwise, I'll either go crazy or decide not to buy a new monitor, but my current one has the reaction times of a sleeping turtle so I'm tired of ghosting ;)

#14
Posted 01/02/2015 12:21 PM   
So after another, hopefully final round of research, comparisons, feedback reading, tests, reviews etc. I think I found a monitor that (based on the info I found) would seem like the "best" solution for me and it is... the BenQ XL2420Z. Does the jury have any objections? ;) Any final thought, anyone with some horrible issues with this monitor? BTW, I am reading a lot good stuff about the Asus VG278H, but it's a no-go for me as it's simply not for sale [u]anywhere[/u] in my country. ---------EDIT--------- Oh and, once I get it, you can expect an in-depth feedback of how it performs as I will definitely take a very critical look on it, on how LightBoost affects anything, what's up with checkerboards etc. :)
So after another, hopefully final round of research, comparisons, feedback reading, tests, reviews etc. I think I found a monitor that (based on the info I found) would seem like the "best" solution for me and it is... the BenQ XL2420Z.

Does the jury have any objections? ;) Any final thought, anyone with some horrible issues with this monitor?

BTW, I am reading a lot good stuff about the Asus VG278H, but it's a no-go for me as it's simply not for sale anywhere in my country.

---------EDIT---------

Oh and, once I get it, you can expect an in-depth feedback of how it performs as I will definitely take a very critical look on it, on how LightBoost affects anything, what's up with checkerboards etc. :)

#15
Posted 01/02/2015 02:46 PM   
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