I think there has been a lot of focus on the NVIDIA stereoscopic drivers - and I think our energies are being misplaced.
1. NVIDIA, quietly, has been updating their stereo drivers - and I think they have been doing a very good job.
2. If you look at their developers guide, they have recently added a stereoscopic section - a further indication that the technology is being supported.
3. While CRT monitors are on the decline because of LCD, there are new projectors and 3D monitors on the horizon - demonstrating that the technology has a promising future.
4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance.
So, as far as I can tell, NVIDIA is honoring their side of the deal.
The problem is the game developers. What steps need to be taken to be sure they will implement this simple specification?
I think organization and recognition are key.
So, I have a few questions for you. Depending no how things size up, perhaps a case can be made to build a small association of NVIDIA stereoscopic users or a lobby group.
1. How much have you spent on your gaming solution in the past year (videocard)?
2. How much have you spent on PC videogames in the last year?
3. Are there any other formal associations of this type? I'm not referring to professional stereo groups who build molecules. I mean gamers and enthusiasts.
4. What type of display equipment are you using? Projector, CRT (glasses), 3d LCD?
5. In the past three years, how many NVIDIA cards have you bought because of the stereoscopic ability?
I think there has been a lot of focus on the NVIDIA stereoscopic drivers - and I think our energies are being misplaced.
1. NVIDIA, quietly, has been updating their stereo drivers - and I think they have been doing a very good job.
2. If you look at their developers guide, they have recently added a stereoscopic section - a further indication that the technology is being supported.
3. While CRT monitors are on the decline because of LCD, there are new projectors and 3D monitors on the horizon - demonstrating that the technology has a promising future.
4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance.
So, as far as I can tell, NVIDIA is honoring their side of the deal.
The problem is the game developers. What steps need to be taken to be sure they will implement this simple specification?
I think organization and recognition are key.
So, I have a few questions for you. Depending no how things size up, perhaps a case can be made to build a small association of NVIDIA stereoscopic users or a lobby group.
1. How much have you spent on your gaming solution in the past year (videocard)?
2. How much have you spent on PC videogames in the last year?
3. Are there any other formal associations of this type? I'm not referring to professional stereo groups who build molecules. I mean gamers and enthusiasts.
4. What type of display equipment are you using? Projector, CRT (glasses), 3d LCD?
5. In the past three years, how many NVIDIA cards have you bought because of the stereoscopic ability?
Hi Chopper. I for one am more than happy to give Nvidia their due if it's warranted, but I do find myself in disagreement with you over the assumption that Nvidia have actually held up their end of the bargain here. For fear of sounding like a broken record, though Nvidia claim that stereo driver 78.01 works with the 7800 range and in SLI no less, neither claim appears to be true in my own experiance. Ordinarily I would have simply put the problems that I've encountered down to the newer generation of games along with their enhanced graphics, and thought no more about it. However FIA GT Racing worked beautifully using a single 6800, but refused to work on my current setup using 78.01 or indeed 91.28. The newer games don't work in single card mode either using 7800's. The specific nature of that problem has been replicated with many of the newer games that I've tried to view in 3d stereo. To my mind, the finger of blame should point to Nvidia who, it appears to me, have not invested enough resources into developing better drivers for the new SLI setups that they themselves have heavily marketed to us over the past year or so.
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
Hi Chopper. I for one am more than happy to give Nvidia their due if it's warranted, but I do find myself in disagreement with you over the assumption that Nvidia have actually held up their end of the bargain here. For fear of sounding like a broken record, though Nvidia claim that stereo driver 78.01 works with the 7800 range and in SLI no less, neither claim appears to be true in my own experiance. Ordinarily I would have simply put the problems that I've encountered down to the newer generation of games along with their enhanced graphics, and thought no more about it. However FIA GT Racing worked beautifully using a single 6800, but refused to work on my current setup using 78.01 or indeed 91.28. The newer games don't work in single card mode either using 7800's. The specific nature of that problem has been replicated with many of the newer games that I've tried to view in 3d stereo. To my mind, the finger of blame should point to Nvidia who, it appears to me, have not invested enough resources into developing better drivers for the new SLI setups that they themselves have heavily marketed to us over the past year or so.
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
[quote name='ToThePoint' date='Jun 22 2006, 05:52 PM']Hi Chopper. I for one am more than happy to give Nvidia their due if it's warranted, but I do find myself in disagreement with you over the assumption that Nvidia have actually held up their end of the bargain here. For fear of sounding like a broken record, though Nvidia claim that stereo driver 78.01 works with the 7800 range and in SLI no less, neither claim appears to be true in my own experiance. Ordinarily I would have simply put the problems that I've encountered down to the newer generation of games along with their enhanced graphics, and thought no more about it. However FIA GT Racing worked beautifully using a single 6800, but refused to work on my current setup using 78.01 or indeed 91.28. The newer games don't work in single card mode either using 7800's. The specific nature of that problem has been replicated with many of the newer games that I've tried to view in 3d stereo. To my mind, the finger of blame should point to Nvidia who, it appears to me, have not invested enough resources into developing better drivers for the new SLI setups that they themselves have heavily marketed to us over the past year or so.
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
[right][post="97106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
You make some valid points, and I think there are some aspects to this that need to be taken into account.
First, I think the stereo technology is more complex than you're giving credit for.
Imagine having a line of graphics processors going back years, somehow figuring out a way to convert a 3D image that was never designed to be on a 3D display, and then taking into account hundreds of titles of games - with new ones coming out every month with new video technologies.
It's nothing less than a miracle that it works as well as it does.
If this was so easy to do, ATI would have their own 3D drivers, and Edimensional's proprietary work wouldn't be as lacking.
SLI creates a whole new problem. How do you cross-render frames and coordinate two GPUs at the same time? I'm not a programmer, but it sounds like a difficult thing to do. I'm sure it is something they are actively working on.
Development-wise, I'm afraid it's the nature of the beast that the stereo drivers will always be a few months behind the Forcewares.
The release of the stereo drivers were anonymous? I submitted those drivers! I don't know why the guru guys listed it as anonymous.
Why hasn't NVIDIA come forward with an employee to answer questions...do they do that for Forceware? Where do they do this?
Now, the problems I'm referring to are HUD depth problems, convergence and stereo adjustments impacting the wrong screen components, things that can be easily prevented with a little foresight by gamemakers.
If there is an association or friendly lobby that can add a stamp of approval to a game, that would be a big plus. The question is can such a lobby be justified? Is there a business case for it?
That's why answering all the questions I put forward can determine this.
One more thing. I could be mistaken, but I think a good portion of the stereo driver is actually in the Forceware driver. The Doom 3 and Quake 4 shadows problem dissappeared when I upgraded from 91.28 to 91.31 Forceware.
[quote name='ToThePoint' date='Jun 22 2006, 05:52 PM']Hi Chopper. I for one am more than happy to give Nvidia their due if it's warranted, but I do find myself in disagreement with you over the assumption that Nvidia have actually held up their end of the bargain here. For fear of sounding like a broken record, though Nvidia claim that stereo driver 78.01 works with the 7800 range and in SLI no less, neither claim appears to be true in my own experiance. Ordinarily I would have simply put the problems that I've encountered down to the newer generation of games along with their enhanced graphics, and thought no more about it. However FIA GT Racing worked beautifully using a single 6800, but refused to work on my current setup using 78.01 or indeed 91.28. The newer games don't work in single card mode either using 7800's. The specific nature of that problem has been replicated with many of the newer games that I've tried to view in 3d stereo. To my mind, the finger of blame should point to Nvidia who, it appears to me, have not invested enough resources into developing better drivers for the new SLI setups that they themselves have heavily marketed to us over the past year or so.
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
[post="97106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
You make some valid points, and I think there are some aspects to this that need to be taken into account.
First, I think the stereo technology is more complex than you're giving credit for.
Imagine having a line of graphics processors going back years, somehow figuring out a way to convert a 3D image that was never designed to be on a 3D display, and then taking into account hundreds of titles of games - with new ones coming out every month with new video technologies.
It's nothing less than a miracle that it works as well as it does.
If this was so easy to do, ATI would have their own 3D drivers, and Edimensional's proprietary work wouldn't be as lacking.
SLI creates a whole new problem. How do you cross-render frames and coordinate two GPUs at the same time? I'm not a programmer, but it sounds like a difficult thing to do. I'm sure it is something they are actively working on.
Development-wise, I'm afraid it's the nature of the beast that the stereo drivers will always be a few months behind the Forcewares.
The release of the stereo drivers were anonymous? I submitted those drivers! I don't know why the guru guys listed it as anonymous.
Why hasn't NVIDIA come forward with an employee to answer questions...do they do that for Forceware? Where do they do this?
Now, the problems I'm referring to are HUD depth problems, convergence and stereo adjustments impacting the wrong screen components, things that can be easily prevented with a little foresight by gamemakers.
If there is an association or friendly lobby that can add a stamp of approval to a game, that would be a big plus. The question is can such a lobby be justified? Is there a business case for it?
That's why answering all the questions I put forward can determine this.
One more thing. I could be mistaken, but I think a good portion of the stereo driver is actually in the Forceware driver. The Doom 3 and Quake 4 shadows problem dissappeared when I upgraded from 91.28 to 91.31 Forceware.
I quote -
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
[quote name='Artox' date='Jun 22 2006, 06:58 PM']I quote -
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
[right][post="97136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
You got me on the performance issue. Perhaps a better way to frame this is it's a little less game specific than it used to be ;=).
I think I'm misunderstanding something.
Even if goggles are going to be a thing of the past, don't the new 3D displays need the drivers to render the images? How else will they decipher left and right images?
Other than that, I think we are seeing eye to eye.
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
[post="97136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
You got me on the performance issue. Perhaps a better way to frame this is it's a little less game specific than it used to be ;=).
I think I'm misunderstanding something.
Even if goggles are going to be a thing of the past, don't the new 3D displays need the drivers to render the images? How else will they decipher left and right images?
Other than that, I think we are seeing eye to eye.
Well [b]Chopper[/b], it seems that I personally owe you a debt of gratitude for prompting the release of 91.28, seeing as a couple of weeks prior to that I had been pestering the supplier of my 3d glasses on the subject of whether they had any lobbying power at all. It can safely be assumed that the answer was in the negative.
I appreciate the fact of what you're saying, in that 3d stereo can't be an easy process to make work on architecture that wasn't specially designed for it to be able to do so. All I know, is that it gave all of my space sims on a Win98 machine (that I still have btw), a whole new lease of life. Seeing relatively older games in 3d stereo, seems every bit as good as brand new games today, that aren't in stereo. That's how good it is. It's difficult to get that point across to those who've not seen games in proper 3-dimensions unless they see it for themselves. The way that this technology replicates the way in which our own brains perceive everything else in the world, in my view, represented real value for money for my purchase, and also showed me just what potential there was for those of us gamers who were born lucky enough to have 20-20 vision.
Though I can appreciate the many potential difficulties in getting working 3d stereo in SLI, my entire rig was built around 3d stereo working in the highest possible resolutions for the latest games. As [b]Artox[/b] has said, that too had kept me loyal to Nvidia thus far. True, it's in the nature of the beast for 3d support to lag behind a little, but I'd still really appreciate an official anouncement confirming that 1, 3 or even 6 months down the line a compatible driver will be made available. I'd still grumble, but I'd stop worrying that 3d stereo junkies such as I aren't being given their fix. I will certainly try that newer forceware driver in due course as you suggested, so again, thanks for the assist.
I certainly agree with you that game programmers could do with paying far more attention to what HUDs and weapon carrying right arms do when 3d stereo is enabled, especially for those of us who like their 3d stereo settings on the strong side. 3d stereo tech in games has been out for some years now, so really, there's no excuse anymore.
Personally I don't know of any other lobbying group for issues related to 3d stereo. But as of this moment, I reckon that YOU ARE in fact that lobbying group!!! Anyhow you've been a lifesaver, in that you for one, are at least doing something, and be aware that it's very much appreciated.
Well Chopper, it seems that I personally owe you a debt of gratitude for prompting the release of 91.28, seeing as a couple of weeks prior to that I had been pestering the supplier of my 3d glasses on the subject of whether they had any lobbying power at all. It can safely be assumed that the answer was in the negative.
I appreciate the fact of what you're saying, in that 3d stereo can't be an easy process to make work on architecture that wasn't specially designed for it to be able to do so. All I know, is that it gave all of my space sims on a Win98 machine (that I still have btw), a whole new lease of life. Seeing relatively older games in 3d stereo, seems every bit as good as brand new games today, that aren't in stereo. That's how good it is. It's difficult to get that point across to those who've not seen games in proper 3-dimensions unless they see it for themselves. The way that this technology replicates the way in which our own brains perceive everything else in the world, in my view, represented real value for money for my purchase, and also showed me just what potential there was for those of us gamers who were born lucky enough to have 20-20 vision.
Though I can appreciate the many potential difficulties in getting working 3d stereo in SLI, my entire rig was built around 3d stereo working in the highest possible resolutions for the latest games. As Artox has said, that too had kept me loyal to Nvidia thus far. True, it's in the nature of the beast for 3d support to lag behind a little, but I'd still really appreciate an official anouncement confirming that 1, 3 or even 6 months down the line a compatible driver will be made available. I'd still grumble, but I'd stop worrying that 3d stereo junkies such as I aren't being given their fix. I will certainly try that newer forceware driver in due course as you suggested, so again, thanks for the assist.
I certainly agree with you that game programmers could do with paying far more attention to what HUDs and weapon carrying right arms do when 3d stereo is enabled, especially for those of us who like their 3d stereo settings on the strong side. 3d stereo tech in games has been out for some years now, so really, there's no excuse anymore.
Personally I don't know of any other lobbying group for issues related to 3d stereo. But as of this moment, I reckon that YOU ARE in fact that lobbying group!!! Anyhow you've been a lifesaver, in that you for one, are at least doing something, and be aware that it's very much appreciated.
I agree that the frustration we all feel is more a sign of the positive success that NVIDIA's stereoscopic technology represents - and it's easy to lose sight of that.
Perhaps "lobby" was a poor choice of words on my part. It has a negative connotation to it.
Perhaps "advocacy group" would work better.
My sense is all these independent 3D glasses, monitors, and projector manufacturers have no real power or influence to speak of - and yet the industry may indeed be on the cusp of a revolution in gaming.
Whenever I talk about 3D glasses to gamers in forums and in the games themselves, the response is "3D Glasses? Are you joking?".
Ever since I got these glasses, the marketing and business wheels in my brain have been spinning, and I think there is a very big opportunity here.
However, I need to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel.
I agree that the frustration we all feel is more a sign of the positive success that NVIDIA's stereoscopic technology represents - and it's easy to lose sight of that.
Perhaps "lobby" was a poor choice of words on my part. It has a negative connotation to it.
Perhaps "advocacy group" would work better.
My sense is all these independent 3D glasses, monitors, and projector manufacturers have no real power or influence to speak of - and yet the industry may indeed be on the cusp of a revolution in gaming.
Whenever I talk about 3D glasses to gamers in forums and in the games themselves, the response is "3D Glasses? Are you joking?".
Ever since I got these glasses, the marketing and business wheels in my brain have been spinning, and I think there is a very big opportunity here.
However, I need to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel.
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
Maby we should post pictures of everyone's favorite games in anaglyph mode and a link to the nvidia stereo drivers in as many forums that we can find :)
Maby we should post pictures of everyone's favorite games in anaglyph mode and a link to the nvidia stereo drivers in as many forums that we can find :)
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
[right][post="97203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Interesting piece.
The question I have is who stands to win, and who stands to lose.
I wonder how much R&D and Marketing money Sharp has invested in making their 3D monitors a viable product, and how much more money they are looking to spend.
Shutterglasses were peanuts compared to that, and I don't think Sharp is the only player.
What about those crazy VR helmets, and the projectors, and so on. It really adds up.
The way I see it, there are a lot of companies out there who have put some big dollars in this 3D technology with NVIDIA being the catalyst. They are going to be very upset if the technology walks away from them because of a simple matter of programming code.
I'm very curious about this NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" initiative.
If I was a game publisher, what's in it for me to put the NVIDIA logo on my packaging? Why would I actively promote one manufacturer over another? They'd optimize the game anyway, why promote the actual manufacturer?
I'd bet good money that NVIDIA offers game publishers a financial incentive for doing this - so much so, I think it would be hard to walk away.
I mean, game publishing is risky business. Noone really knows what's going to be a hit, and what isn't. Maybe NVIDIA is offering financial security to offset the risks.
Options. That's the key. Options.
I'm not a programmer, but the beauty about computers is they can pretty much do anything you tell them. If NVIDIA is indeed forking over some dough, we should be able to get the best of both worlds.
In addition to "The Way It's Meant to be Played", we should start seeing "The Way It's Meant to be Seen" on packages.
I'm going to put more thought into this. Perhaps NVIDIA's marketing team would be open to talking to me - though I think introducing myself as "Chopper" is out of the question. :lol:
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
[post="97203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Interesting piece.
The question I have is who stands to win, and who stands to lose.
I wonder how much R&D and Marketing money Sharp has invested in making their 3D monitors a viable product, and how much more money they are looking to spend.
Shutterglasses were peanuts compared to that, and I don't think Sharp is the only player.
What about those crazy VR helmets, and the projectors, and so on. It really adds up.
The way I see it, there are a lot of companies out there who have put some big dollars in this 3D technology with NVIDIA being the catalyst. They are going to be very upset if the technology walks away from them because of a simple matter of programming code.
I'm very curious about this NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" initiative.
If I was a game publisher, what's in it for me to put the NVIDIA logo on my packaging? Why would I actively promote one manufacturer over another? They'd optimize the game anyway, why promote the actual manufacturer?
I'd bet good money that NVIDIA offers game publishers a financial incentive for doing this - so much so, I think it would be hard to walk away.
I mean, game publishing is risky business. Noone really knows what's going to be a hit, and what isn't. Maybe NVIDIA is offering financial security to offset the risks.
Options. That's the key. Options.
I'm not a programmer, but the beauty about computers is they can pretty much do anything you tell them. If NVIDIA is indeed forking over some dough, we should be able to get the best of both worlds.
In addition to "The Way It's Meant to be Played", we should start seeing "The Way It's Meant to be Seen" on packages.
I'm going to put more thought into this. Perhaps NVIDIA's marketing team would be open to talking to me - though I think introducing myself as "Chopper" is out of the question. :lol:
Philips have a new 3D display, not sure about gaming but I belive they intend to have a consumer level display in the next few years or so (TV perhaps?).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
Philips have a new 3D display, not sure about gaming but I belive they intend to have a consumer level display in the next few years or so (TV perhaps?).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
[quote name='KeeperOfTheSoul' date='Jun 23 2006, 07:30 PM']Philips have a new 3D display, not sure about gaming but I belive they intend to have a consumer level display in the next few years or so (TV perhaps?).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
[right][post="97387"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Excellent. I will review this stuff.
There is a 3D Consortium, but it looks manufacturer focused. I mean no disrespect, but they really managed to take an exciting technology and turn it into something REALLY boring!
I found some interesting information on the NVIDIA's "Meant to be Played" program:
While everyone claims game makers get paid to put the logo up, NVIDIA claims it is strictly a cross-promotional arrangement.
NVIDIA works jointly with the game developers to get things working properly, and once things are a go, they promote the game through their internal channels (magazines, etc.).
So - money aside, there is some serious leverage there.
If we could rally the manufacturers, and if NVIDIA would buy into it, perhaps there is an opportunity for "Meant to be Seen"?
[quote name='KeeperOfTheSoul' date='Jun 23 2006, 07:30 PM']Philips have a new 3D display, not sure about gaming but I belive they intend to have a consumer level display in the next few years or so (TV perhaps?).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
[post="97387"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Excellent. I will review this stuff.
There is a 3D Consortium, but it looks manufacturer focused. I mean no disrespect, but they really managed to take an exciting technology and turn it into something REALLY boring!
I found some interesting information on the NVIDIA's "Meant to be Played" program:
While everyone claims game makers get paid to put the logo up, NVIDIA claims it is strictly a cross-promotional arrangement.
NVIDIA works jointly with the game developers to get things working properly, and once things are a go, they promote the game through their internal channels (magazines, etc.).
So - money aside, there is some serious leverage there.
If we could rally the manufacturers, and if NVIDIA would buy into it, perhaps there is an opportunity for "Meant to be Seen"?
[b]Chopper[/b], I purchased my own glasses via eDimensional. A cheap n' cheerful option, but a very cost effective one nonetheless. I happened across the DTi website for glasses-free monitors blissfully unaware of the link they already have to the Nvidia site. I don't really know of any other manufacturers other than those stated here;
Chopper, I purchased my own glasses via eDimensional. A cheap n' cheerful option, but a very cost effective one nonetheless. I happened across the DTi website for glasses-free monitors blissfully unaware of the link they already have to the Nvidia site. I don't really know of any other manufacturers other than those stated here;
I bought Nvidia 6800. Previously I had an ATI 9700 videocard, and the next buy will be another more powerfull Nvida (just because I love stereo).
My games:
- Farcry
- HalfLife 2
- Richard Burns Rally (you must use dxtweaks to enable stereo, and it rocks)
- F1 Challenge 99-02 (yes, it´s old, but with updates.... it´s beautifull)
- Mafia (Incredible)
I have a Samsung 997MB 19" CRT monitor and a 19" TFT, and my best choice to play is with Nvidia "planar mirror" (two clone monitors + mirror system, using a front end mirror). The last Nvidia driver is very good with the mirror (as good as if you use shutterglasses).
I have eDimensional shutter glasses too, Emagin Z800, and a good anaglyph glasses, but I prefer the mirror (I´m not going to write here why).
I also have XBOX and XBOX 360, but I´m not sure why I bought them (2D is boring).... stereo is another thing... what you feel playing stereo is in another dimension (it is just true :) ).
I think Stereo3D converts a game in art. Sometimes it is not very usefull to play just because the game is not fully thought to be played in stereo.
But what I´m writting.... I´m speaking in a Stereo3d forum... and you all know what I´m thinking. Some experiences can´t be written.
I bought Nvidia 6800. Previously I had an ATI 9700 videocard, and the next buy will be another more powerfull Nvida (just because I love stereo).
My games:
- Farcry
- HalfLife 2
- Richard Burns Rally (you must use dxtweaks to enable stereo, and it rocks)
- F1 Challenge 99-02 (yes, it´s old, but with updates.... it´s beautifull)
- Mafia (Incredible)
I have a Samsung 997MB 19" CRT monitor and a 19" TFT, and my best choice to play is with Nvidia "planar mirror" (two clone monitors + mirror system, using a front end mirror). The last Nvidia driver is very good with the mirror (as good as if you use shutterglasses).
I have eDimensional shutter glasses too, Emagin Z800, and a good anaglyph glasses, but I prefer the mirror (I´m not going to write here why).
I also have XBOX and XBOX 360, but I´m not sure why I bought them (2D is boring).... stereo is another thing... what you feel playing stereo is in another dimension (it is just true :) ).
I think Stereo3D converts a game in art. Sometimes it is not very usefull to play just because the game is not fully thought to be played in stereo.
But what I´m writting.... I´m speaking in a Stereo3d forum... and you all know what I´m thinking. Some experiences can´t be written.
I think there has been a lot of focus on the NVIDIA stereoscopic drivers - and I think our energies are being misplaced.
1. NVIDIA, quietly, has been updating their stereo drivers - and I think they have been doing a very good job.
2. If you look at their developers guide, they have recently added a stereoscopic section - a further indication that the technology is being supported.
3. While CRT monitors are on the decline because of LCD, there are new projectors and 3D monitors on the horizon - demonstrating that the technology has a promising future.
4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance.
So, as far as I can tell, NVIDIA is honoring their side of the deal.
The problem is the game developers. What steps need to be taken to be sure they will implement this simple specification?
I think organization and recognition are key.
So, I have a few questions for you. Depending no how things size up, perhaps a case can be made to build a small association of NVIDIA stereoscopic users or a lobby group.
1. How much have you spent on your gaming solution in the past year (videocard)?
2. How much have you spent on PC videogames in the last year?
3. Are there any other formal associations of this type? I'm not referring to professional stereo groups who build molecules. I mean gamers and enthusiasts.
4. What type of display equipment are you using? Projector, CRT (glasses), 3d LCD?
5. In the past three years, how many NVIDIA cards have you bought because of the stereoscopic ability?
Let's see where this takes us.
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
I think there has been a lot of focus on the NVIDIA stereoscopic drivers - and I think our energies are being misplaced.
1. NVIDIA, quietly, has been updating their stereo drivers - and I think they have been doing a very good job.
2. If you look at their developers guide, they have recently added a stereoscopic section - a further indication that the technology is being supported.
3. While CRT monitors are on the decline because of LCD, there are new projectors and 3D monitors on the horizon - demonstrating that the technology has a promising future.
4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance.
So, as far as I can tell, NVIDIA is honoring their side of the deal.
The problem is the game developers. What steps need to be taken to be sure they will implement this simple specification?
I think organization and recognition are key.
So, I have a few questions for you. Depending no how things size up, perhaps a case can be made to build a small association of NVIDIA stereoscopic users or a lobby group.
1. How much have you spent on your gaming solution in the past year (videocard)?
2. How much have you spent on PC videogames in the last year?
3. Are there any other formal associations of this type? I'm not referring to professional stereo groups who build molecules. I mean gamers and enthusiasts.
4. What type of display equipment are you using? Projector, CRT (glasses), 3d LCD?
5. In the past three years, how many NVIDIA cards have you bought because of the stereoscopic ability?
Let's see where this takes us.
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
Intel Core i7 4770k @ 4.4Ghz, 3x GTX Titan, 16GB Tactical Tracer LED, CPU/GPU Dual-Loop Water-Cooled - Driver 331.82, DX11.0
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
[right][post="97106"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
You make some valid points, and I think there are some aspects to this that need to be taken into account.
First, I think the stereo technology is more complex than you're giving credit for.
Imagine having a line of graphics processors going back years, somehow figuring out a way to convert a 3D image that was never designed to be on a 3D display, and then taking into account hundreds of titles of games - with new ones coming out every month with new video technologies.
It's nothing less than a miracle that it works as well as it does.
If this was so easy to do, ATI would have their own 3D drivers, and Edimensional's proprietary work wouldn't be as lacking.
SLI creates a whole new problem. How do you cross-render frames and coordinate two GPUs at the same time? I'm not a programmer, but it sounds like a difficult thing to do. I'm sure it is something they are actively working on.
Development-wise, I'm afraid it's the nature of the beast that the stereo drivers will always be a few months behind the Forcewares.
The release of the stereo drivers were anonymous? I submitted those drivers! I don't know why the guru guys listed it as anonymous.
Why hasn't NVIDIA come forward with an employee to answer questions...do they do that for Forceware? Where do they do this?
Now, the problems I'm referring to are HUD depth problems, convergence and stereo adjustments impacting the wrong screen components, things that can be easily prevented with a little foresight by gamemakers.
If there is an association or friendly lobby that can add a stamp of approval to a game, that would be a big plus. The question is can such a lobby be justified? Is there a business case for it?
That's why answering all the questions I put forward can determine this.
One more thing. I could be mistaken, but I think a good portion of the stereo driver is actually in the Forceware driver. The Doom 3 and Quake 4 shadows problem dissappeared when I upgraded from 91.28 to 91.31 Forceware.
Thanks in advance,
Chopper
I don't see why any of us should beg and plead for software support, which should really come as standard, otherwise Nvidia should never have pushed 3d stereo in the first place if they weren't going to follow through with it.
Do also bear in mind that 91.28 was released unofficially, by somebody who wished to remain anonymous. Go figure.
I do applaud you for raising the subject of a lobbying group, because it's sorely needed. What puzzles me though, is why Nvidia has set up forums such as this one, only to have no official Nvidia employee actually monitoring it to provide customer feedback and re-assurance. I've no wish to dampen the upbeat tone. I just hope that what you say is true, and that they're indeed working on a new driver as we speak.
For what it's worth I use a 22" CRT, with twin oc'd 7800 256's, and with or without stereo, I still prefer a high quality CRT to the best LCD, anyday.
You make some valid points, and I think there are some aspects to this that need to be taken into account.
First, I think the stereo technology is more complex than you're giving credit for.
Imagine having a line of graphics processors going back years, somehow figuring out a way to convert a 3D image that was never designed to be on a 3D display, and then taking into account hundreds of titles of games - with new ones coming out every month with new video technologies.
It's nothing less than a miracle that it works as well as it does.
If this was so easy to do, ATI would have their own 3D drivers, and Edimensional's proprietary work wouldn't be as lacking.
SLI creates a whole new problem. How do you cross-render frames and coordinate two GPUs at the same time? I'm not a programmer, but it sounds like a difficult thing to do. I'm sure it is something they are actively working on.
Development-wise, I'm afraid it's the nature of the beast that the stereo drivers will always be a few months behind the Forcewares.
The release of the stereo drivers were anonymous? I submitted those drivers! I don't know why the guru guys listed it as anonymous.
Why hasn't NVIDIA come forward with an employee to answer questions...do they do that for Forceware? Where do they do this?
Now, the problems I'm referring to are HUD depth problems, convergence and stereo adjustments impacting the wrong screen components, things that can be easily prevented with a little foresight by gamemakers.
If there is an association or friendly lobby that can add a stamp of approval to a game, that would be a big plus. The question is can such a lobby be justified? Is there a business case for it?
That's why answering all the questions I put forward can determine this.
One more thing. I could be mistaken, but I think a good portion of the stereo driver is actually in the Forceware driver. The Doom 3 and Quake 4 shadows problem dissappeared when I upgraded from 91.28 to 91.31 Forceware.
Thanks in advance,
Chopper
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
[right][post="97136"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
You got me on the performance issue. Perhaps a better way to frame this is it's a little less game specific than it used to be ;=).
I think I'm misunderstanding something.
Even if goggles are going to be a thing of the past, don't the new 3D displays need the drivers to render the images? How else will they decipher left and right images?
Other than that, I think we are seeing eye to eye.
Regards,
Chopper
"4. The technology has now reached the point where stereo can be produced with limited loss of performance."
Sorry Chopper but I can't agree with you on this one, at least when it comes to using glasses +nvidia stereo drivers, I can't speak about stereo monitors because I've never used one.
It is logical to me as an economist, not as a stereo user why nvidia isn't investing enough resources and effords into 3d stereo, now that stereo monitors are being developed and the technology level is allowing stereo to be received without any sort of glasses, therefore goggle stereo is a thing of the past, why should they battle stereo, when they have other things to worry about- as their ethernal battle with ati for the fastest GPU.
Personally stereo is the only thing that has kept me from buying a ati card more than once an will do the same in the future if Nvidia decides to keep up this trend of releasing beta drivers (hopefully we'll see a final version soon).
Seeing how fast technology is changing and the quality of games with it I can only hope that we'll soon see the effects, which we usually disable to play in 3d, fully functional in stereo.
It is true that if developers stared making their games with at least a little care for us stereo gamers and optimizing their games to be played in stereo, nvidia would surely start optimizing their stereo drivers twice as fast and often that it is now.
But the way to make developers notice stereo gamers are two, either a lobby group among the gamers, or Nvidia promoting stereo.
You got me on the performance issue. Perhaps a better way to frame this is it's a little less game specific than it used to be ;=).
I think I'm misunderstanding something.
Even if goggles are going to be a thing of the past, don't the new 3D displays need the drivers to render the images? How else will they decipher left and right images?
Other than that, I think we are seeing eye to eye.
Regards,
Chopper
I appreciate the fact of what you're saying, in that 3d stereo can't be an easy process to make work on architecture that wasn't specially designed for it to be able to do so. All I know, is that it gave all of my space sims on a Win98 machine (that I still have btw), a whole new lease of life. Seeing relatively older games in 3d stereo, seems every bit as good as brand new games today, that aren't in stereo. That's how good it is. It's difficult to get that point across to those who've not seen games in proper 3-dimensions unless they see it for themselves. The way that this technology replicates the way in which our own brains perceive everything else in the world, in my view, represented real value for money for my purchase, and also showed me just what potential there was for those of us gamers who were born lucky enough to have 20-20 vision.
Though I can appreciate the many potential difficulties in getting working 3d stereo in SLI, my entire rig was built around 3d stereo working in the highest possible resolutions for the latest games. As [b]Artox[/b] has said, that too had kept me loyal to Nvidia thus far. True, it's in the nature of the beast for 3d support to lag behind a little, but I'd still really appreciate an official anouncement confirming that 1, 3 or even 6 months down the line a compatible driver will be made available. I'd still grumble, but I'd stop worrying that 3d stereo junkies such as I aren't being given their fix. I will certainly try that newer forceware driver in due course as you suggested, so again, thanks for the assist.
I certainly agree with you that game programmers could do with paying far more attention to what HUDs and weapon carrying right arms do when 3d stereo is enabled, especially for those of us who like their 3d stereo settings on the strong side. 3d stereo tech in games has been out for some years now, so really, there's no excuse anymore.
Personally I don't know of any other lobbying group for issues related to 3d stereo. But as of this moment, I reckon that YOU ARE in fact that lobbying group!!! Anyhow you've been a lifesaver, in that you for one, are at least doing something, and be aware that it's very much appreciated.
Best regards ;)
I appreciate the fact of what you're saying, in that 3d stereo can't be an easy process to make work on architecture that wasn't specially designed for it to be able to do so. All I know, is that it gave all of my space sims on a Win98 machine (that I still have btw), a whole new lease of life. Seeing relatively older games in 3d stereo, seems every bit as good as brand new games today, that aren't in stereo. That's how good it is. It's difficult to get that point across to those who've not seen games in proper 3-dimensions unless they see it for themselves. The way that this technology replicates the way in which our own brains perceive everything else in the world, in my view, represented real value for money for my purchase, and also showed me just what potential there was for those of us gamers who were born lucky enough to have 20-20 vision.
Though I can appreciate the many potential difficulties in getting working 3d stereo in SLI, my entire rig was built around 3d stereo working in the highest possible resolutions for the latest games. As Artox has said, that too had kept me loyal to Nvidia thus far. True, it's in the nature of the beast for 3d support to lag behind a little, but I'd still really appreciate an official anouncement confirming that 1, 3 or even 6 months down the line a compatible driver will be made available. I'd still grumble, but I'd stop worrying that 3d stereo junkies such as I aren't being given their fix. I will certainly try that newer forceware driver in due course as you suggested, so again, thanks for the assist.
I certainly agree with you that game programmers could do with paying far more attention to what HUDs and weapon carrying right arms do when 3d stereo is enabled, especially for those of us who like their 3d stereo settings on the strong side. 3d stereo tech in games has been out for some years now, so really, there's no excuse anymore.
Personally I don't know of any other lobbying group for issues related to 3d stereo. But as of this moment, I reckon that YOU ARE in fact that lobbying group!!! Anyhow you've been a lifesaver, in that you for one, are at least doing something, and be aware that it's very much appreciated.
Best regards ;)
Intel Core i7 4770k @ 4.4Ghz, 3x GTX Titan, 16GB Tactical Tracer LED, CPU/GPU Dual-Loop Water-Cooled - Driver 331.82, DX11.0
I agree that the frustration we all feel is more a sign of the positive success that NVIDIA's stereoscopic technology represents - and it's easy to lose sight of that.
Perhaps "lobby" was a poor choice of words on my part. It has a negative connotation to it.
Perhaps "advocacy group" would work better.
My sense is all these independent 3D glasses, monitors, and projector manufacturers have no real power or influence to speak of - and yet the industry may indeed be on the cusp of a revolution in gaming.
Whenever I talk about 3D glasses to gamers in forums and in the games themselves, the response is "3D Glasses? Are you joking?".
Ever since I got these glasses, the marketing and business wheels in my brain have been spinning, and I think there is a very big opportunity here.
However, I need to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel.
Let me put some more thought into it.
Regards,
Chopper
I agree that the frustration we all feel is more a sign of the positive success that NVIDIA's stereoscopic technology represents - and it's easy to lose sight of that.
Perhaps "lobby" was a poor choice of words on my part. It has a negative connotation to it.
Perhaps "advocacy group" would work better.
My sense is all these independent 3D glasses, monitors, and projector manufacturers have no real power or influence to speak of - and yet the industry may indeed be on the cusp of a revolution in gaming.
Whenever I talk about 3D glasses to gamers in forums and in the games themselves, the response is "3D Glasses? Are you joking?".
Ever since I got these glasses, the marketing and business wheels in my brain have been spinning, and I think there is a very big opportunity here.
However, I need to make sure I'm not reinventing the wheel.
Let me put some more thought into it.
Regards,
Chopper
[url="http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm"]http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm[/url]
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
Um.... no one go on a crusade or anything.
-Duckey
Um.... no one go on a crusade or anything.
-Duckey
[url="http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm"]http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm[/url]
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
[right][post="97203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Interesting piece.
The question I have is who stands to win, and who stands to lose.
I wonder how much R&D and Marketing money Sharp has invested in making their 3D monitors a viable product, and how much more money they are looking to spend.
Shutterglasses were peanuts compared to that, and I don't think Sharp is the only player.
What about those crazy VR helmets, and the projectors, and so on. It really adds up.
The way I see it, there are a lot of companies out there who have put some big dollars in this 3D technology with NVIDIA being the catalyst. They are going to be very upset if the technology walks away from them because of a simple matter of programming code.
I'm very curious about this NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" initiative.
If I was a game publisher, what's in it for me to put the NVIDIA logo on my packaging? Why would I actively promote one manufacturer over another? They'd optimize the game anyway, why promote the actual manufacturer?
I'd bet good money that NVIDIA offers game publishers a financial incentive for doing this - so much so, I think it would be hard to walk away.
I mean, game publishing is risky business. Noone really knows what's going to be a hit, and what isn't. Maybe NVIDIA is offering financial security to offset the risks.
Options. That's the key. Options.
I'm not a programmer, but the beauty about computers is they can pretty much do anything you tell them. If NVIDIA is indeed forking over some dough, we should be able to get the best of both worlds.
In addition to "The Way It's Meant to be Played", we should start seeing "The Way It's Meant to be Seen" on packages.
I'm going to put more thought into this. Perhaps NVIDIA's marketing team would be open to talking to me - though I think introducing myself as "Chopper" is out of the question. :lol:
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
http://infomyth.com/stereo3d/playinggames.htm
Basically the power of video cards is working against us -- post screen effects, whereby the 3D scene is rendered into a texture instead of the back buffer, so that the texture can be processed for color, bloom and other effects. I hope the author explains more.
A glimpse of hope appears at the end though.
Interesting piece.
The question I have is who stands to win, and who stands to lose.
I wonder how much R&D and Marketing money Sharp has invested in making their 3D monitors a viable product, and how much more money they are looking to spend.
Shutterglasses were peanuts compared to that, and I don't think Sharp is the only player.
What about those crazy VR helmets, and the projectors, and so on. It really adds up.
The way I see it, there are a lot of companies out there who have put some big dollars in this 3D technology with NVIDIA being the catalyst. They are going to be very upset if the technology walks away from them because of a simple matter of programming code.
I'm very curious about this NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" initiative.
If I was a game publisher, what's in it for me to put the NVIDIA logo on my packaging? Why would I actively promote one manufacturer over another? They'd optimize the game anyway, why promote the actual manufacturer?
I'd bet good money that NVIDIA offers game publishers a financial incentive for doing this - so much so, I think it would be hard to walk away.
I mean, game publishing is risky business. Noone really knows what's going to be a hit, and what isn't. Maybe NVIDIA is offering financial security to offset the risks.
Options. That's the key. Options.
I'm not a programmer, but the beauty about computers is they can pretty much do anything you tell them. If NVIDIA is indeed forking over some dough, we should be able to get the best of both worlds.
In addition to "The Way It's Meant to be Played", we should start seeing "The Way It's Meant to be Seen" on packages.
I'm going to put more thought into this. Perhaps NVIDIA's marketing team would be open to talking to me - though I think introducing myself as "Chopper" is out of the question. :lol:
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
Having slept on this (and I didn't get enough sleep), I think there is enough here to work with - but I need your help in sizing up the industry.
In this thread, can you let me know what manufacturers are selling and creating 3D equipment that is based on the NVIDIA drivers?
I'm not interested in companies that no longer exist.
The equipment I'm interested in includes 3D monitors, glasses, projectors (that are promoting themselves as 3D projectors), VR helmets, everything.
It's very important that these companies have the videogames market in mind with their products - not professional stuff.
I work full time, so I need your help in getting this info.
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
Having slept on this (and I didn't get enough sleep), I think there is enough here to work with - but I need your help in sizing up the industry.
In this thread, can you let me know what manufacturers are selling and creating 3D equipment that is based on the NVIDIA drivers?
I'm not interested in companies that no longer exist.
The equipment I'm interested in includes 3D monitors, glasses, projectors (that are promoting themselves as 3D projectors), VR helmets, everything.
It's very important that these companies have the videogames market in mind with their products - not professional stuff.
I work full time, so I need your help in getting this info.
Regards,
Chopper :magic:
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
[right][post="97387"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post][/right][/quote]
Excellent. I will review this stuff.
There is a 3D Consortium, but it looks manufacturer focused. I mean no disrespect, but they really managed to take an exciting technology and turn it into something REALLY boring!
I found some interesting information on the NVIDIA's "Meant to be Played" program:
[url="http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/2004/10-08_english.php"]http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/2004/10-08_english.php[/url]
While everyone claims game makers get paid to put the logo up, NVIDIA claims it is strictly a cross-promotional arrangement.
NVIDIA works jointly with the game developers to get things working properly, and once things are a go, they promote the game through their internal channels (magazines, etc.).
So - money aside, there is some serious leverage there.
If we could rally the manufacturers, and if NVIDIA would buy into it, perhaps there is an opportunity for "Meant to be Seen"?
More work to do...
Chopper :magic:
Obviously there is the z800 and emargin are developing an SXGA micro OLED. Also they have recently looked at extra life (XL) OLEDS.
As for how a monitor can tell the left from right image, the DVI standard actualy supports stereoscopic with pins to say what form of stereoscopic is being used and whether the left/right eye is being sent (for page flipping).
Excellent. I will review this stuff.
There is a 3D Consortium, but it looks manufacturer focused. I mean no disrespect, but they really managed to take an exciting technology and turn it into something REALLY boring!
I found some interesting information on the NVIDIA's "Meant to be Played" program:
http://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/2004/10-08_english.php
While everyone claims game makers get paid to put the logo up, NVIDIA claims it is strictly a cross-promotional arrangement.
NVIDIA works jointly with the game developers to get things working properly, and once things are a go, they promote the game through their internal channels (magazines, etc.).
So - money aside, there is some serious leverage there.
If we could rally the manufacturers, and if NVIDIA would buy into it, perhaps there is an opportunity for "Meant to be Seen"?
More work to do...
Chopper :magic:
[url="http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo.html"]http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo.html[/url]
So basically, I can't be much help to you on this one. If I do happen to find any others however, I'll let you know.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo.html
So basically, I can't be much help to you on this one. If I do happen to find any others however, I'll let you know.
Intel Core i7 4770k @ 4.4Ghz, 3x GTX Titan, 16GB Tactical Tracer LED, CPU/GPU Dual-Loop Water-Cooled - Driver 331.82, DX11.0
My games:
- Farcry
- HalfLife 2
- Richard Burns Rally (you must use dxtweaks to enable stereo, and it rocks)
- F1 Challenge 99-02 (yes, it´s old, but with updates.... it´s beautifull)
- Mafia (Incredible)
I have a Samsung 997MB 19" CRT monitor and a 19" TFT, and my best choice to play is with Nvidia "planar mirror" (two clone monitors + mirror system, using a front end mirror). The last Nvidia driver is very good with the mirror (as good as if you use shutterglasses).
I have eDimensional shutter glasses too, Emagin Z800, and a good anaglyph glasses, but I prefer the mirror (I´m not going to write here why).
I also have XBOX and XBOX 360, but I´m not sure why I bought them (2D is boring).... stereo is another thing... what you feel playing stereo is in another dimension (it is just true :) ).
I think Stereo3D converts a game in art. Sometimes it is not very usefull to play just because the game is not fully thought to be played in stereo.
But what I´m writting.... I´m speaking in a Stereo3d forum... and you all know what I´m thinking. Some experiences can´t be written.
My games:
- Farcry
- HalfLife 2
- Richard Burns Rally (you must use dxtweaks to enable stereo, and it rocks)
- F1 Challenge 99-02 (yes, it´s old, but with updates.... it´s beautifull)
- Mafia (Incredible)
I have a Samsung 997MB 19" CRT monitor and a 19" TFT, and my best choice to play is with Nvidia "planar mirror" (two clone monitors + mirror system, using a front end mirror). The last Nvidia driver is very good with the mirror (as good as if you use shutterglasses).
I have eDimensional shutter glasses too, Emagin Z800, and a good anaglyph glasses, but I prefer the mirror (I´m not going to write here why).
I also have XBOX and XBOX 360, but I´m not sure why I bought them (2D is boring).... stereo is another thing... what you feel playing stereo is in another dimension (it is just true :) ).
I think Stereo3D converts a game in art. Sometimes it is not very usefull to play just because the game is not fully thought to be played in stereo.
But what I´m writting.... I´m speaking in a Stereo3d forum... and you all know what I´m thinking. Some experiences can´t be written.