3D vision is back baby.... hopefully.
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ok some game engines might be broken in 3d totally but there are a fair amount of games that can be fixed 'relatively easy'. I'm fine with tinny things being broken as long as they would fix them based on the feedback I dont see anything wrong with having high expectations with the paid model, helix dont want to do it due to the related pressure and I can understand him. All people I see on this forum seems to behave as mature human beings, hell there is even COD & BF4 thread that didnt turn into a flame war, I dont expect us to bitch like little crybabies if we found that one light that isnt fixed and demand a full refund on our subscription I would rather see a guy who found it making a screenshot and reporting it (being actually helpful instead of just raging over it). I just propsed the subscription model as it seems to be the thing nowadays since it mean steady income over longer periods, I'm still amazed that people somehow missed PS4 plus being required to play multilayer and dont rage on it (its faaar more serious deal for me than X1 always on).
ok some game engines might be broken in 3d totally but there are a fair amount of games that can be fixed 'relatively easy'. I'm fine with tinny things being broken as long as they would fix them based on the feedback I dont see anything wrong with having high expectations with the paid model, helix dont want to do it due to the related pressure and I can understand him.

All people I see on this forum seems to behave as mature human beings, hell there is even COD & BF4 thread that didnt turn into a flame war, I dont expect us to bitch like little crybabies if we found that one light that isnt fixed and demand a full refund on our subscription I would rather see a guy who found it making a screenshot and reporting it (being actually helpful instead of just raging over it).

I just propsed the subscription model as it seems to be the thing nowadays since it mean steady income over longer periods, I'm still amazed that people somehow missed PS4 plus being required to play multilayer and dont rage on it (its faaar more serious deal for me than X1 always on).

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#46
Posted 11/12/2013 04:41 PM   
[quote="tehace"]ok some game engines might be broken in 3d totally but there are a fair amount of games that can be fixed 'relatively easy'. I'm fine with tinny things being broken as long as they would fix them based on the feedback I dont see anything wrong with having high expectations with the paid model, helix dont want to do it due to the related pressure and I can understand him. All people I see on this forum seems to behave as mature human beings, hell there is even COD & BF4 thread that didnt turn into a flame war, I dont expect us to bitch like little crybabies if we found that one light that isnt fixed and demand a full refund on our subscription I would rather see a guy who found it making a screenshot and reporting it (being actually helpful instead of just raging over it). I just propsed the subscription model as it seems to be the thing nowadays since it mean steady income over longer periods, I'm still amazed that people somehow missed PS4 plus being required to play multilayer and dont rage on it (its faaar more serious deal for me than X1 always on). [/quote] I hear ya, and I am all for it if someone is prepared to take on the responsibility for what it will be. But there are only a handful of us modders contributing to the blog right now as it is, and I don't believe any of us want to do it, so I am not sure where these people would come from. I may have misunderstood your earlier post, but I don't think this is a model that Nvidia will ever pick up either. That's why I think them taking ownership of the modding tools would be more workable (though I don't believe that will happen either).
tehace said:ok some game engines might be broken in 3d totally but there are a fair amount of games that can be fixed 'relatively easy'. I'm fine with tinny things being broken as long as they would fix them based on the feedback I dont see anything wrong with having high expectations with the paid model, helix dont want to do it due to the related pressure and I can understand him.

All people I see on this forum seems to behave as mature human beings, hell there is even COD & BF4 thread that didnt turn into a flame war, I dont expect us to bitch like little crybabies if we found that one light that isnt fixed and demand a full refund on our subscription I would rather see a guy who found it making a screenshot and reporting it (being actually helpful instead of just raging over it).

I just propsed the subscription model as it seems to be the thing nowadays since it mean steady income over longer periods, I'm still amazed that people somehow missed PS4 plus being required to play multilayer and dont rage on it (its faaar more serious deal for me than X1 always on).


I hear ya, and I am all for it if someone is prepared to take on the responsibility for what it will be. But there are only a handful of us modders contributing to the blog right now as it is, and I don't believe any of us want to do it, so I am not sure where these people would come from. I may have misunderstood your earlier post, but I don't think this is a model that Nvidia will ever pick up either. That's why I think them taking ownership of the modding tools would be more workable (though I don't believe that will happen either).

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#47
Posted 11/12/2013 05:04 PM   
OT maybe but I see their in stock again in newegg. How many glasses come with the kit?
OT maybe but I see their in stock again in newegg. How many glasses come with the kit?

#48
Posted 11/13/2013 01:38 AM   
[quote="Laast"] I paid for a 3Dvision monitor, 3Dvision glasses and Nvidia 3D vision-ready hardware. I also paid my games. And I should also pay Nvidia for fixing shaders in games? No way. Giving money to community to people who spend their free time in making fixes is one thing, and I would do it with no problem. Giving money to a firm like Nvidia because I want them to support their own products is a complete nonsense. [/quote]From an ideological perspective, I agree with you 100%. But from a pragmatic one, I spend over a thousand dollars per year on hardware and games. $5 a month is a drop in the ocean compared to that. Or, to put it a different way, it's about the price of 1 game per year. If such a subscription service were to significantly improve 3D vision support for 12+ games per year, I'd be the first to sign up, ideology be damned.
Laast said:

I paid for a 3Dvision monitor, 3Dvision glasses and Nvidia 3D vision-ready hardware. I also paid my games. And I should also pay Nvidia for fixing shaders in games? No way.

Giving money to community to people who spend their free time in making fixes is one thing, and I would do it with no problem. Giving money to a firm like Nvidia because I want them to support their own products is a complete nonsense.
From an ideological perspective, I agree with you 100%.

But from a pragmatic one, I spend over a thousand dollars per year on hardware and games. $5 a month is a drop in the ocean compared to that. Or, to put it a different way, it's about the price of 1 game per year.

If such a subscription service were to significantly improve 3D vision support for 12+ games per year, I'd be the first to sign up, ideology be damned.

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#49
Posted 11/13/2013 03:43 AM   
In a more perfect world, I completely agree that if someone sells the product of 3D Vision, that they ought to make it good. But in this pretty imperfect world, there's only so much they can do, and I am far to focused upon the end-goal. Whenever I play a game in flawless 3D, I'm grinning the whole time. It doesn't really matter to me how we get there- I just want that, I'm willing to pay extra for it. It's really interesting the different fix-it styles that we have. On the first hand, we had NVidia trying to do game fixes via profiles. It seems pretty clear now that those fixes involve setting or disabling different heuristics that the drivers use, like setting all square polygons to not be stereoized because they are typically used for ambient shadows. It seems to me that they don't actually do any shader patching using their approach and that's why there are so many glitches left over. There's only so much you can do with a heuristic based approach. It was OK for the time, and definitely still fun as all hell. Then there is the Helix approach of actually fixing the shaders on a per-game basis. Much more powerful, but more time consuming and hard too. Only a small handful of people have the deep understanding of shaders necessary to fix something like shadows. Some of those people work at NVidia, no doubt. It wouldn't be a giant stretch to see NVidia adopt a Helix style approach. They already do a per-game tweak via profiles, they ought to just go ahead and patch the shaders too.
In a more perfect world, I completely agree that if someone sells the product of 3D Vision, that they ought to make it good. But in this pretty imperfect world, there's only so much they can do, and I am far to focused upon the end-goal. Whenever I play a game in flawless 3D, I'm grinning the whole time. It doesn't really matter to me how we get there- I just want that, I'm willing to pay extra for it.


It's really interesting the different fix-it styles that we have. On the first hand, we had NVidia trying to do game fixes via profiles. It seems pretty clear now that those fixes involve setting or disabling different heuristics that the drivers use, like setting all square polygons to not be stereoized because they are typically used for ambient shadows.

It seems to me that they don't actually do any shader patching using their approach and that's why there are so many glitches left over. There's only so much you can do with a heuristic based approach. It was OK for the time, and definitely still fun as all hell.

Then there is the Helix approach of actually fixing the shaders on a per-game basis. Much more powerful, but more time consuming and hard too. Only a small handful of people have the deep understanding of shaders necessary to fix something like shadows. Some of those people work at NVidia, no doubt.

It wouldn't be a giant stretch to see NVidia adopt a Helix style approach. They already do a per-game tweak via profiles, they ought to just go ahead and patch the shaders too.

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#50
Posted 11/13/2013 04:52 AM   
Do you think a partnership between Nvidia and Helix ist realistic?
Do you think a partnership between Nvidia and Helix ist realistic?
#51
Posted 11/13/2013 05:25 AM   
The major problem IMO is that shaders and in game content are the property of the developpers, not Nvidia. I'm pretty sure that a firm like Nvidia CAN NOT legaly modify shaders and redistribute them to his client (we 3d vision users). Community can do it because they don't take money from it, and it could be considered as "modding"... I think this is the only reason why Nvidia don't fix games themselves, and can't hire someone to fix shaders (officialy...). And if one day, they do it, they CAN NOT sell it (because shaders, modified or not, are the devs property).
The major problem IMO is that shaders and in game content are the property of the developpers, not Nvidia. I'm pretty sure that a firm like Nvidia CAN NOT legaly modify shaders and redistribute them to his client (we 3d vision users). Community can do it because they don't take money from it, and it could be considered as "modding"...

I think this is the only reason why Nvidia don't fix games themselves, and can't hire someone to fix shaders (officialy...). And if one day, they do it, they CAN NOT sell it (because shaders, modified or not, are the devs property).

#52
Posted 11/13/2013 09:00 AM   
[quote="Laast"]The major problem IMO is that shaders and in game content are the property of the developpers, not Nvidia. I'm pretty sure that a firm like Nvidia CAN NOT legaly modify shaders and redistribute them to his client (we 3d vision users). Community can do it because they don't take money from it, and it could be considered as "modding"... I think this is the only reason why Nvidia don't fix games themselves, and can't hire someone to fix shaders (officialy...). And if one day, they do it, they CAN NOT sell it (because shaders, modified or not, are the devs property).[/quote]If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?
Laast said:The major problem IMO is that shaders and in game content are the property of the developpers, not Nvidia. I'm pretty sure that a firm like Nvidia CAN NOT legaly modify shaders and redistribute them to his client (we 3d vision users). Community can do it because they don't take money from it, and it could be considered as "modding"...

I think this is the only reason why Nvidia don't fix games themselves, and can't hire someone to fix shaders (officialy...). And if one day, they do it, they CAN NOT sell it (because shaders, modified or not, are the devs property).
If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?

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#53
Posted 11/13/2013 10:51 AM   
[quote="Volnaiskra"]If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?[/quote] Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal). Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders.
Volnaiskra said:If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?


Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal).

Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders.

#54
Posted 11/13/2013 11:56 AM   
Except that the shaders generally come with the game engine being used. For example, Unreal engine comes with stock shaders, some of which are busted in 3D. Doesn't seem like the game dev 'owns' those shaders. Then to complicate things a bit more, some of the really impressive shaders like for water effects and hair, actually come from NVidia as part of their developer program. So NVidia creates them, engines modify them, maybe, and game devs ship them. Pretty sure this isn't as clear an ownership as you might be thinking. [quote="ronrebell"]Do you think a partnership between Nvidia and Helix ist realistic?[/quote]Nah, no chance in hell, but a man can dream can't he?
Except that the shaders generally come with the game engine being used. For example, Unreal engine comes with stock shaders, some of which are busted in 3D. Doesn't seem like the game dev 'owns' those shaders.

Then to complicate things a bit more, some of the really impressive shaders like for water effects and hair, actually come from NVidia as part of their developer program. So NVidia creates them, engines modify them, maybe, and game devs ship them.

Pretty sure this isn't as clear an ownership as you might be thinking.


ronrebell said:Do you think a partnership between Nvidia and Helix ist realistic?
Nah, no chance in hell, but a man can dream can't he?

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#55
Posted 11/13/2013 12:34 PM   
So what do you think, when will this new 3D Vision anouncement be made? Ist there a bigger event in the next time?
So what do you think, when will this new 3D Vision anouncement be made? Ist there a bigger event in the next time?

#56
Posted 11/13/2013 02:09 PM   
[quote="Laast"][quote="Volnaiskra"]If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?[/quote] Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal). Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders. [/quote] I just did a bit of googling on the use of SweetFX - also a DX post process injector - and *all* the discussion was about whether or not you get banned online, not about copyright infringement. I could not find anything that suggested or cared about copyright infringement. I guess with the Helixmods we are actually providing/distributing files to *override* the stock game shaders, but we are not changing any element of the actual game, it's own files or it's engine - it's all at the directx layer. I guess the question is whether or not the shader files dumped out by the helix dll are actually 'copyrighted', since they are a 'representation' of the in game shaders - and I don't know the answer unfortunately. But I am guessing they probably are from what (little) I know of software copyright.
Laast said:
Volnaiskra said:If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?


Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal).

Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders.



I just did a bit of googling on the use of SweetFX - also a DX post process injector - and *all* the discussion was about whether or not you get banned online, not about copyright infringement. I could not find anything that suggested or cared about copyright infringement. I guess with the Helixmods we are actually providing/distributing files to *override* the stock game shaders, but we are not changing any element of the actual game, it's own files or it's engine - it's all at the directx layer. I guess the question is whether or not the shader files dumped out by the helix dll are actually 'copyrighted', since they are a 'representation' of the in game shaders - and I don't know the answer unfortunately. But I am guessing they probably are from what (little) I know of software copyright.

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#57
Posted 11/13/2013 03:36 PM   
I am sure NVidia could come up with a solution like tridef if they were worry about Helix type patches. The bottom line again NVidia must take some sort of action for 3d vision support direct x11 is coming and all the top pc games are going to support it. Also what about direct 11.1 full support native 3d is supported
I am sure NVidia could come up with a solution like tridef if they were worry about Helix type patches.

The bottom line again NVidia must take some sort of action for 3d vision support direct x11 is coming and all the top pc games are going to support it.

Also what about direct 11.1 full support native 3d is supported

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#58
Posted 11/13/2013 04:21 PM   
[quote="SamLombardo"]So what do you think, when will this new 3D Vision announcement be made? Ist there a bigger event in the next time?[/quote] CES is in the first week of January. And I suspect will begin seeing some G-Sync monitors then. We'll also probably be seeing TVs using the HDMI 2.0 spec. So it wouldn't be crazy to think Nvidia could announce support for that (1080P@60fps in 3D via HDMI). I realize people are more concerned about DX11 than HDMI 2.0 support, but it's still a sign that Nvidia was supporting 3D and dedicated resources to the new specs. Which is a win for us. Especially since many of us were operating under the assumption all development was dead regarding 3D.
SamLombardo said:So what do you think, when will this new 3D Vision announcement be made? Ist there a bigger event in the next time?


CES is in the first week of January. And I suspect will begin seeing some G-Sync monitors then. We'll also probably be seeing TVs using the HDMI 2.0 spec. So it wouldn't be crazy to think Nvidia could announce support for that (1080P@60fps in 3D via HDMI).

I realize people are more concerned about DX11 than HDMI 2.0 support, but it's still a sign that Nvidia was supporting 3D and dedicated resources to the new specs. Which is a win for us. Especially since many of us were operating under the assumption all development was dead regarding 3D.

#59
Posted 11/13/2013 05:42 PM   
Well, thanks Josh, that post at least brings some light at the end of the tunnel. Really curious to hear what the plans are. The best thing would be full DX11 support for all the latest games. Icing on the cake would be >60fps in S3D (my current HW isn't strong enough for that anyway) and backwards support for older games, perhaps incorporating Helix's work into a convenient driver update/profile. Stronger partnership with HW vendors and developers would also be welcome (e.g. 3D VISION IPS panels).
Well, thanks Josh, that post at least brings some light at the end of the tunnel. Really curious to hear what the plans are.

The best thing would be full DX11 support for all the latest games.

Icing on the cake would be >60fps in S3D (my current HW isn't strong enough for that anyway) and backwards support for older games, perhaps incorporating Helix's work into a convenient driver update/profile. Stronger partnership with HW vendors and developers would also be welcome (e.g. 3D VISION IPS panels).

#60
Posted 11/13/2013 08:17 PM   
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