1080p3D does not equal 1080p?
Now that I have 3DTV Play working again (thanks for updating supported TVs so quickly, Nvidia!), I have a question about resolution.

From what I understand, 3DTV Play uses frame packing, which is supposed to be a no loss format. 3D Blurays use frame packing, and they look just like normal Blurays, ie 1080p, except 3D. When I play games at 1920x1080/24 using 3DTV Play, the resolution is not 1920x1080. It's better than the half res you get with side by side or checkerboard, but not full 1080. 720/60 likewise does not look like normal 720p...the res is lower.

Why?

What's happening to the missing resolution and why can Blurays be full res 3D but games can't?
Now that I have 3DTV Play working again (thanks for updating supported TVs so quickly, Nvidia!), I have a question about resolution.



From what I understand, 3DTV Play uses frame packing, which is supposed to be a no loss format. 3D Blurays use frame packing, and they look just like normal Blurays, ie 1080p, except 3D. When I play games at 1920x1080/24 using 3DTV Play, the resolution is not 1920x1080. It's better than the half res you get with side by side or checkerboard, but not full 1080. 720/60 likewise does not look like normal 720p...the res is lower.



Why?



What's happening to the missing resolution and why can Blurays be full res 3D but games can't?

#1
Posted 04/16/2011 07:56 AM   
How do you know they aren't? Did you take a screenshot?
How do you know they aren't? Did you take a screenshot?

#2
Posted 04/16/2011 02:31 PM   
Nvidia 3D TV Play is limited to 720P@60Hz for gaming. This has nothing to do with Nvidia, this is a limit of the HDMI chipset. If you look on the forum there are a ton of topics discussing this.
Nvidia 3D TV Play is limited to 720P@60Hz for gaming. This has nothing to do with Nvidia, this is a limit of the HDMI chipset. If you look on the forum there are a ton of topics discussing this.
#3
Posted 04/16/2011 04:12 PM   
[quote name='Zloth' date='16 April 2011 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1302964265' post='1225746']
How do you know they aren't? Did you take a screenshot?
[/quote]

The same way you would know if you were playing a game at 1080p and I switched the resolution to 720 or something else lower. It's obvious.


[quote name='cybereality' date='16 April 2011 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1302970376' post='1225785']
Nvidia 3D TV Play is limited to 720P@60Hz for gaming. This has nothing to do with Nvidia, this is a limit of the HDMI chipset. If you look on the forum there are a ton of topics discussing this.
[/quote]

3DTV Play can do 1920x1080 at 24hz. However, that does not look like 1920x1080. It looks lower res.

It can also do, as you said, 1280x720 at 60hz, but that doesn't look like 1280x720. It looks lower res.

I'd like to know why.
[quote name='Zloth' date='16 April 2011 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1302964265' post='1225746']

How do you know they aren't? Did you take a screenshot?





The same way you would know if you were playing a game at 1080p and I switched the resolution to 720 or something else lower. It's obvious.





[quote name='cybereality' date='16 April 2011 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1302970376' post='1225785']

Nvidia 3D TV Play is limited to 720P@60Hz for gaming. This has nothing to do with Nvidia, this is a limit of the HDMI chipset. If you look on the forum there are a ton of topics discussing this.





3DTV Play can do 1920x1080 at 24hz. However, that does not look like 1920x1080. It looks lower res.



It can also do, as you said, 1280x720 at 60hz, but that doesn't look like 1280x720. It looks lower res.



I'd like to know why.

#4
Posted 04/16/2011 04:31 PM   
720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming.
720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming.

#5
Posted 04/16/2011 04:39 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='16 April 2011 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1302971951' post='1225799']
720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming.
[/quote]

That's not quite accurate. 1080p and 720p are designed to scale well. 720p is exactly 2/3ds of 1080p both vertically and horizontally (do the math), so one pixel is interpolated for every 2. That is why 720p content looks great on 1080p displays (I'm talking broadcast HD tv).

However, that is not what I'm talking about. 720p in 3D DOES NOT look like 720p non-3D. It looks a lot worse. And of course 1080/24 (which according to what you said should map pixel for pixel) DOES NOT look like 1920x1080 without 3D. It looks half res or slightly better.

So again, what's going on? If bluray discs can get full res with frame packing, why can't 3DTV Play, even if it's only at 720P, which would still look a lot better than what I'm seeing at either 1080/24 or 720/60.
[quote name='roller11' date='16 April 2011 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1302971951' post='1225799']

720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming.





That's not quite accurate. 1080p and 720p are designed to scale well. 720p is exactly 2/3ds of 1080p both vertically and horizontally (do the math), so one pixel is interpolated for every 2. That is why 720p content looks great on 1080p displays (I'm talking broadcast HD tv).



However, that is not what I'm talking about. 720p in 3D DOES NOT look like 720p non-3D. It looks a lot worse. And of course 1080/24 (which according to what you said should map pixel for pixel) DOES NOT look like 1920x1080 without 3D. It looks half res or slightly better.



So again, what's going on? If bluray discs can get full res with frame packing, why can't 3DTV Play, even if it's only at 720P, which would still look a lot better than what I'm seeing at either 1080/24 or 720/60.

#6
Posted 04/16/2011 05:13 PM   
In 3D games, 720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming on HDTV displays.
In 3D games, 720P "looks lower" because it's scaled, non-native resolution. The pixels can't be mapped 1 to 1, it's like forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is why Frame Packing is the absolute worst mode for 3D gaming on HDTV displays.

#7
Posted 04/16/2011 07:14 PM   
Then why does regular 720p content look good? It is also scaled.

Do you understand my question? Why does 720p 3D look worse than 720p non 3D? Both are scaled.
Then why does regular 720p content look good? It is also scaled.



Do you understand my question? Why does 720p 3D look worse than 720p non 3D? Both are scaled.

#8
Posted 04/16/2011 08:03 PM   
...and what about 1080p/24? How is that scaled?
...and what about 1080p/24? How is that scaled?

#9
Posted 04/16/2011 09:05 PM   
[quote name='mike01' date='16 April 2011 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1302974027' post='1225810']
720p in 3D DOES NOT look like 720p non-3D. It looks a lot worse.[/quote]
I've never observed 720P in 2D on my 1080P display, so I can't compare 720P 2D to 720P 3D, no opinion. All I can say is 720P 3D looks grotesque, hideously ugly. No doubt because it's scaled, and I would expect 720P 2D to look just as bad.

[quote]And of course 1080/24 (which according to what you said should map pixel for pixel) DOES NOT look like 1920x1080 without 3D. It looks half res or slightly better.[/quote]
I've made this comparison and my impression is that it depends on the game. Most look great at 1080P/24 Frame pack in 3D, but CoD Black Ops looks rough, unattractive in 1080P/24 frame pack. Interestingly checkerboard looks better to me (Black Ops only).

[quote] If bluray discs can get full res with frame packing, why can't 3DTV Play, even if it's only at 720P,[/quote]
Because 720P isn't full rez on a 1080P screen.
You're attempting to resolve an invalid comparison, BluRay 3D images vs 3D game images, both at 1080P/24. They are inherently so different, a direct comparison is impossible. You can't compare a frame of video from a polished Pixar presentation and compare it to a frame of video from a game that is entirely different artwork, even though they are both 1080P/24 3D.

Your other question, why does 720P broadcast 3D scale so much better than 720P game 3D? If it was just a matter of scaling, then they would have equal artifacts. I agree with your premise on this one. For example, DirectV 3D does look much less artifacts than 3D gaming at 720P. Generally however, my observatons are that 1080P/24 3D in games looks every bit full rez. Even CB looks "full rez" even though it isn't in the context of your post.
[quote name='mike01' date='16 April 2011 - 11:13 AM' timestamp='1302974027' post='1225810']

720p in 3D DOES NOT look like 720p non-3D. It looks a lot worse.

I've never observed 720P in 2D on my 1080P display, so I can't compare 720P 2D to 720P 3D, no opinion. All I can say is 720P 3D looks grotesque, hideously ugly. No doubt because it's scaled, and I would expect 720P 2D to look just as bad.



And of course 1080/24 (which according to what you said should map pixel for pixel) DOES NOT look like 1920x1080 without 3D. It looks half res or slightly better.


I've made this comparison and my impression is that it depends on the game. Most look great at 1080P/24 Frame pack in 3D, but CoD Black Ops looks rough, unattractive in 1080P/24 frame pack. Interestingly checkerboard looks better to me (Black Ops only).



If bluray discs can get full res with frame packing, why can't 3DTV Play, even if it's only at 720P,


Because 720P isn't full rez on a 1080P screen.

You're attempting to resolve an invalid comparison, BluRay 3D images vs 3D game images, both at 1080P/24. They are inherently so different, a direct comparison is impossible. You can't compare a frame of video from a polished Pixar presentation and compare it to a frame of video from a game that is entirely different artwork, even though they are both 1080P/24 3D.



Your other question, why does 720P broadcast 3D scale so much better than 720P game 3D? If it was just a matter of scaling, then they would have equal artifacts. I agree with your premise on this one. For example, DirectV 3D does look much less artifacts than 3D gaming at 720P. Generally however, my observatons are that 1080P/24 3D in games looks every bit full rez. Even CB looks "full rez" even though it isn't in the context of your post.

#10
Posted 04/16/2011 11:32 PM   
[quote name='mike01' date='16 April 2011 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1302984221' post='1225872']
Then why does regular 720p content look good? It is also scaled.

Do you understand my question? Why does 720p 3D look worse than 720p non 3D? Both are scaled.
[/quote]

It could be a combination of crosstalk/ghosting, your fps taking a dip, color & contrast settings washing out when in 3d mode or your convergence/depth settings aren't ideally optimized for the game.

How exactly does it "look" worse? You perceive it as a resolution issue, but it's likely something else.

Unless of course it IS a resolution issue ... you mentioned your tv being recently supported. Could be a bug.
[quote name='mike01' date='16 April 2011 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1302984221' post='1225872']

Then why does regular 720p content look good? It is also scaled.



Do you understand my question? Why does 720p 3D look worse than 720p non 3D? Both are scaled.





It could be a combination of crosstalk/ghosting, your fps taking a dip, color & contrast settings washing out when in 3d mode or your convergence/depth settings aren't ideally optimized for the game.



How exactly does it "look" worse? You perceive it as a resolution issue, but it's likely something else.



Unless of course it IS a resolution issue ... you mentioned your tv being recently supported. Could be a bug.

#11
Posted 04/17/2011 12:12 AM   
[quote name='FuchiBOT' date='17 April 2011 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1302999137' post='1225952']
It could be a combination of crosstalk/ghosting, your fps taking a dip, color & contrast settings washing out when in 3d mode or your convergence/depth settings aren't ideally optimized for the game.

How exactly does it "look" worse? You perceive it as a resolution issue, but it's likely something else.

Unless of course it IS a resolution issue ... you mentioned your tv being recently supported. Could be a bug.
[/quote]


If you want to see exactly what it looks like, at either 720p or 1080p, take a game, load it at 1080p, and then change the resolution to someting like 1440xwhatever. Maybe even lower. It looks lower resolution than what it is supposed to look like.

720p on 1080p monitors looks good. As I said, it is designed to scale at exactly 2/3rds the resolution top and down. 3D does NOT look like that. If you guys are getting real 1080p at 24 frames or real 720p, then I need tech support.
[quote name='FuchiBOT' date='17 April 2011 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1302999137' post='1225952']

It could be a combination of crosstalk/ghosting, your fps taking a dip, color & contrast settings washing out when in 3d mode or your convergence/depth settings aren't ideally optimized for the game.



How exactly does it "look" worse? You perceive it as a resolution issue, but it's likely something else.



Unless of course it IS a resolution issue ... you mentioned your tv being recently supported. Could be a bug.







If you want to see exactly what it looks like, at either 720p or 1080p, take a game, load it at 1080p, and then change the resolution to someting like 1440xwhatever. Maybe even lower. It looks lower resolution than what it is supposed to look like.



720p on 1080p monitors looks good. As I said, it is designed to scale at exactly 2/3rds the resolution top and down. 3D does NOT look like that. If you guys are getting real 1080p at 24 frames or real 720p, then I need tech support.

#12
Posted 04/17/2011 01:19 AM   
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