3D Vision Ready - biggest lie in rating ever Don't buy 3D screens unless you test them
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[quote name='cybereality' date='08 January 2011 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1294545739' post='1173974']
There is not a 3D solution in the world (aside from dual-screen HMDs) that doesn't suffer from ghosting to some extent. Even in the RealD movie theaters, with equipment costing like $50,000, there is some ghosting in there (albeit very small). So don't expect a $300 consumer level product to all of a sudden solve all these issues. Even $2000 3D HDTVs have ghosting (although maybe not as bad as the top of screen on Nvidia 3D Vision). Hopefully they will improve this on later models.
[/quote]

Yes there is, HMD. This market has to be coming up soon. They have pushed out some tiny full hd displays in prototype mode. This market was improving before the economy went pop. Personally, I think its got to be the best solution, but there is just nobody out there fooling with it right now. I can almost tape 2 phone screens together to make it work, so someone out there must be working on an HMD that is going to function in 720p mode at least. With the advent of cell phone screens getting higher res, that should be all we really need. Slap some optics on there and bingo.

About the 2233rz, there are large #s of people complaining about top of screen ghosting. I have a 2233rz and I dont have this problem. The top of the screen does not appear to ghost any more than the bottom. I think they had a production run problem that caused what is commonly called "Severe Ghosting" in the top of the screen. Either that is people see the sky ghosting with buildings in a game and assume its the top of screen that has the problem when its just that bright light is always in the sky, so that makes it the top. Either way, you can check this by just making up a simple still image that superimposes black in the left eye and white in the right eye and look at your screen to see how the ghosting varies from top to bottom. You can also move your head up and down and see how it changes, because that also has an effect on the ghosting and contrast at different points on the screen. So many people have complained, that I assume its a real issue with the panel. My screen does not have this problem, but I have not seen anyone rma it and say, ok it works now. I also have not heard anyone see a different 2233rz and said, that one is good.
[quote name='cybereality' date='08 January 2011 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1294545739' post='1173974']

There is not a 3D solution in the world (aside from dual-screen HMDs) that doesn't suffer from ghosting to some extent. Even in the RealD movie theaters, with equipment costing like $50,000, there is some ghosting in there (albeit very small). So don't expect a $300 consumer level product to all of a sudden solve all these issues. Even $2000 3D HDTVs have ghosting (although maybe not as bad as the top of screen on Nvidia 3D Vision). Hopefully they will improve this on later models.





Yes there is, HMD. This market has to be coming up soon. They have pushed out some tiny full hd displays in prototype mode. This market was improving before the economy went pop. Personally, I think its got to be the best solution, but there is just nobody out there fooling with it right now. I can almost tape 2 phone screens together to make it work, so someone out there must be working on an HMD that is going to function in 720p mode at least. With the advent of cell phone screens getting higher res, that should be all we really need. Slap some optics on there and bingo.



About the 2233rz, there are large #s of people complaining about top of screen ghosting. I have a 2233rz and I dont have this problem. The top of the screen does not appear to ghost any more than the bottom. I think they had a production run problem that caused what is commonly called "Severe Ghosting" in the top of the screen. Either that is people see the sky ghosting with buildings in a game and assume its the top of screen that has the problem when its just that bright light is always in the sky, so that makes it the top. Either way, you can check this by just making up a simple still image that superimposes black in the left eye and white in the right eye and look at your screen to see how the ghosting varies from top to bottom. You can also move your head up and down and see how it changes, because that also has an effect on the ghosting and contrast at different points on the screen. So many people have complained, that I assume its a real issue with the panel. My screen does not have this problem, but I have not seen anyone rma it and say, ok it works now. I also have not heard anyone see a different 2233rz and said, that one is good.

#16
Posted 01/09/2011 11:42 AM   
I've got two different type of 2233 screens..
One with firmware 1 and the other two with firmware 2
The older ones has a greenisch glow all over the screen that turns of when going 2d.
It's also has a little bit more ghosting,but I use it as my left screen in surround mode,and it hard to compare the side screens with the middle one,because they tend to give a different fov and color sometimes...

Maybe I should put them in 'clone' option to see if the older ones has more ghosting...
I've got two different type of 2233 screens..

One with firmware 1 and the other two with firmware 2

The older ones has a greenisch glow all over the screen that turns of when going 2d.

It's also has a little bit more ghosting,but I use it as my left screen in surround mode,and it hard to compare the side screens with the middle one,because they tend to give a different fov and color sometimes...



Maybe I should put them in 'clone' option to see if the older ones has more ghosting...

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#17
Posted 01/09/2011 12:07 PM   
I think Nvidia could do much better in the SUPPORT AREA. Ghosting is a problem and I agree that information about it would have to be present in the monitors publicity when buying, and also the Nvidia glasses, and of course also the darkening problem and the hardware requiriments, but what really happend is not strange in this life where people/companies lies without problems (or do not say totally the true they know, that is the same) when they want your money. It is good to be prevent and know that what they says maybe only the little visible thing of the iceberg, so it is good to read forums before to buy, specially technology.

Now I have just read some RATINGs about games in the NVidia Control Panel, and I must say i never stop surprising about how Nvidia (not only Nvidia, of course) changes the true to their side. I suppose it is "normal" in our days, but reading the ratings you can buy a game thinking that it is supported and discover what really happend.
I think Nvidia could do much better in the SUPPORT AREA. Ghosting is a problem and I agree that information about it would have to be present in the monitors publicity when buying, and also the Nvidia glasses, and of course also the darkening problem and the hardware requiriments, but what really happend is not strange in this life where people/companies lies without problems (or do not say totally the true they know, that is the same) when they want your money. It is good to be prevent and know that what they says maybe only the little visible thing of the iceberg, so it is good to read forums before to buy, specially technology.



Now I have just read some RATINGs about games in the NVidia Control Panel, and I must say i never stop surprising about how Nvidia (not only Nvidia, of course) changes the true to their side. I suppose it is "normal" in our days, but reading the ratings you can buy a game thinking that it is supported and discover what really happend.

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#18
Posted 01/09/2011 01:09 PM   
What is this ghosting at the top of the screen that everyone is talking about? Can someone take a screenshot and show the others what you are saying?

-M
What is this ghosting at the top of the screen that everyone is talking about? Can someone take a screenshot and show the others what you are saying?



-M

#19
Posted 01/09/2011 05:50 PM   
[quote name='Shaderhacker' date='09 January 2011 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1294595445' post='1174241']
What is this ghosting at the top of the screen that everyone is talking about? Can someone take a screenshot and show the others what you are saying?[/quote]Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.

To others to specualte/answer over: Could it be that different motherboards (and usb-controllerchips) gives different results? Some say ghosting isn't visible at all while some others says it's terrible. I've seen the samsung 2233rz with 3d-vision and that experience was terrible. The ghosting was apparent in both the top as well as the lower edge of screen. Saying edge is an understatement since only 1/3 of the screen showed proper 3d.
Are there different results with same screens and 3d-vision on different hardwaresetups?
[quote name='Shaderhacker' date='09 January 2011 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1294595445' post='1174241']

What is this ghosting at the top of the screen that everyone is talking about? Can someone take a screenshot and show the others what you are saying?Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.



To others to specualte/answer over: Could it be that different motherboards (and usb-controllerchips) gives different results? Some say ghosting isn't visible at all while some others says it's terrible. I've seen the samsung 2233rz with 3d-vision and that experience was terrible. The ghosting was apparent in both the top as well as the lower edge of screen. Saying edge is an understatement since only 1/3 of the screen showed proper 3d.

Are there different results with same screens and 3d-vision on different hardwaresetups?

Image

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#20
Posted 01/09/2011 06:34 PM   
I have to agree, there should be no ghosting at all.

I wish I was on the NVIDIA team so I could contribute something in some way. I'd love a chance to help fix the ghosting issue.
I have to agree, there should be no ghosting at all.



I wish I was on the NVIDIA team so I could contribute something in some way. I'd love a chance to help fix the ghosting issue.

#21
Posted 01/09/2011 07:52 PM   
[quote name='Likay' date='09 January 2011 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1294598084' post='1174269']
Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.

To others to specualte/answer over: Could it be that different motherboards (and usb-controllerchips) gives different results? Some say ghosting isn't visible at all while some others says it's terrible. I've seen the samsung 2233rz with 3d-vision and that experience was terrible. The ghosting was apparent in both the top as well as the lower edge of screen. Saying edge is an understatement since only 1/3 of the screen showed proper 3d.
Are there different results with same screens and 3d-vision on different hardwaresetups?
[/quote]

No it's just about the quality of the products. For example I saw 2 Samsung 2233RZ they had different ghosting one more than other. Also I would like to point out another thing that great companies like Samsung and others trick the public with the live demos.
For example I have asked reviewers of the product on the net about ghosting and they said they have not encountered it on 2233RZ. Also at live demos I haven't seen a video or some info about it everybody said there is no ghosting. Why? Because they fine tune the screens or they use a better TN panel in order to make it work.
If they to that, as it speculated around the web, when they send the sample to NVIDIA quality tests they could not see it because the panel quality was good.
It is not possible for example for technical support from NVIDIA to not be aware about ghosting!!!
When I contacted tech support from NVIDIA and told them about the issue they kept telling me to let the LCD warm up...come on ... it was running for half a day... and they had no idea about the issue which is unacceptable...but anyway... they learn from us we learn from them... heck its our money
[quote name='Likay' date='09 January 2011 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1294598084' post='1174269']

Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.



To others to specualte/answer over: Could it be that different motherboards (and usb-controllerchips) gives different results? Some say ghosting isn't visible at all while some others says it's terrible. I've seen the samsung 2233rz with 3d-vision and that experience was terrible. The ghosting was apparent in both the top as well as the lower edge of screen. Saying edge is an understatement since only 1/3 of the screen showed proper 3d.

Are there different results with same screens and 3d-vision on different hardwaresetups?





No it's just about the quality of the products. For example I saw 2 Samsung 2233RZ they had different ghosting one more than other. Also I would like to point out another thing that great companies like Samsung and others trick the public with the live demos.

For example I have asked reviewers of the product on the net about ghosting and they said they have not encountered it on 2233RZ. Also at live demos I haven't seen a video or some info about it everybody said there is no ghosting. Why? Because they fine tune the screens or they use a better TN panel in order to make it work.

If they to that, as it speculated around the web, when they send the sample to NVIDIA quality tests they could not see it because the panel quality was good.

It is not possible for example for technical support from NVIDIA to not be aware about ghosting!!!

When I contacted tech support from NVIDIA and told them about the issue they kept telling me to let the LCD warm up...come on ... it was running for half a day... and they had no idea about the issue which is unacceptable...but anyway... they learn from us we learn from them... heck its our money

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#22
Posted 01/09/2011 08:26 PM   
[quote name='Likay' date='09 January 2011 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1294598084' post='1174269']
Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.[/quote]

Yes, a screenshot is necessary.

In the context in which you describe, I do see this in almost every game in 3d. It's more apparent in some games and less apparent in other games, but NONE of the games exhibit this in ONE particular spot on the screen (i.e. at the top) - therefore I need a screenshot to see what others are seeing.

Running the Nvidia test scene in the Nvidia control panel (under the 3D Stereoscopic section), there is MINIMAL to NO ghosting whatsoever - IF I keep my head straight. If I start to move my head from side-to-side, then you can see some ghosting on some letters.

-M
[quote name='Likay' date='09 January 2011 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1294598084' post='1174269']

Screenshot isn't really necessary. Ghosting occurs when the left eye sees what the right eye is suppoused to (poor blocking of glasses when dark as well as bad timing between screen and glasses) and vice versa. Ghosting is visible like a faint copy of an object at the side of the actual object, therefore called ghosting. The correct term is actually crosstalk.



Yes, a screenshot is necessary.



In the context in which you describe, I do see this in almost every game in 3d. It's more apparent in some games and less apparent in other games, but NONE of the games exhibit this in ONE particular spot on the screen (i.e. at the top) - therefore I need a screenshot to see what others are seeing.



Running the Nvidia test scene in the Nvidia control panel (under the 3D Stereoscopic section), there is MINIMAL to NO ghosting whatsoever - IF I keep my head straight. If I start to move my head from side-to-side, then you can see some ghosting on some letters.



-M

#23
Posted 01/09/2011 09:08 PM   
Here's a screenshot which shows the severity of the problem on my setup with a 2233rz

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2592/4075080546_f3088d7598_b.jpg[/img]
Here's a screenshot which shows the severity of the problem on my setup with a 2233rz



Image

#24
Posted 01/09/2011 09:52 PM   
That's much worse than anything I see.
That's much worse than anything I see.
#25
Posted 01/09/2011 10:04 PM   
[quote name='ERP' date='10 January 2011 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1294610667' post='1174369']
That's much worse than anything I see.
[/quote]

Yep it is.... and believe me you can not ignore it :)
[quote name='ERP' date='10 January 2011 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1294610667' post='1174369']

That's much worse than anything I see.





Yep it is.... and believe me you can not ignore it :)

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#26
Posted 01/09/2011 11:37 PM   
That seems to be coincidence. In your image, it seems like the objects that have the ghosting is the pillars. They just happen to be reaching the height of the top of the screen. To be absolute certain that it's th top half of your screen, please take a screenshot of the Nvidia test scene (in the control panel).

-M
That seems to be coincidence. In your image, it seems like the objects that have the ghosting is the pillars. They just happen to be reaching the height of the top of the screen. To be absolute certain that it's th top half of your screen, please take a screenshot of the Nvidia test scene (in the control panel).



-M

#27
Posted 01/10/2011 12:04 AM   
[quote name='Shaderhacker' date='10 January 2011 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1294617849' post='1174427']
That seems to be coincidence. In your image, it seems like the objects that have the ghosting is the pillars. They just happen to be reaching the height of the top of the screen. [/quote]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?

Are you trying to say that the ghosting is only affecting the pillars and nothing else in the scene? Furthermore, are you insinuating that I'm trying to be deceptive in some way by posting this screenshot?

I used this scene in particular as it most clearly demonstrates the problem.
[quote name='Shaderhacker' date='10 January 2011 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1294617849' post='1174427']

That seems to be coincidence. In your image, it seems like the objects that have the ghosting is the pillars. They just happen to be reaching the height of the top of the screen.



I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?



Are you trying to say that the ghosting is only affecting the pillars and nothing else in the scene? Furthermore, are you insinuating that I'm trying to be deceptive in some way by posting this screenshot?



I used this scene in particular as it most clearly demonstrates the problem.

#28
Posted 01/10/2011 12:53 AM   
[quote name='BigDubs' date='09 January 2011 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1294620812' post='1174453']
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?

Are you trying to say that the ghosting is only affecting the pillars and nothing else in the scene? Furthermore, are you insinuating that I'm trying to be deceptive in some way by posting this screenshot?

I used this scene in particular as it most clearly demonstrates the problem.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to insinuate that you are deceiving anyone.

What I'm saying is that in your screenshot, it doesn't appear to have ghosting ALL over. It appears on the pillars and the clouds. This may be the top half of the screen as you say - but to be certain it a hardware limitation, it should show in ANY game at the top half of the screen. I'm trying to rule out whether it's the game or the hardware you have.

The Nvidia 3D stereoscopic control panel has a button called "Test Stereoscopic 3D". Take a screenshot of that in motion and see if you still get ghosting at the upper half of the screen.
-M
[quote name='BigDubs' date='09 January 2011 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1294620812' post='1174453']

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?



Are you trying to say that the ghosting is only affecting the pillars and nothing else in the scene? Furthermore, are you insinuating that I'm trying to be deceptive in some way by posting this screenshot?



I used this scene in particular as it most clearly demonstrates the problem.





I'm not trying to insinuate that you are deceiving anyone.



What I'm saying is that in your screenshot, it doesn't appear to have ghosting ALL over. It appears on the pillars and the clouds. This may be the top half of the screen as you say - but to be certain it a hardware limitation, it should show in ANY game at the top half of the screen. I'm trying to rule out whether it's the game or the hardware you have.



The Nvidia 3D stereoscopic control panel has a button called "Test Stereoscopic 3D". Take a screenshot of that in motion and see if you still get ghosting at the upper half of the screen.

-M

#29
Posted 01/10/2011 01:40 AM   
What he's showings certainly accurate, it's worse than what I see, but it's the nature of the LCD technology.
The top of the screen is drawn first and so has worse ghosting.
The effect is also worse when you have high contrast areas, so that example is somewhat pathological bu it shouldn't be that bad.
What he's showings certainly accurate, it's worse than what I see, but it's the nature of the LCD technology.

The top of the screen is drawn first and so has worse ghosting.

The effect is also worse when you have high contrast areas, so that example is somewhat pathological bu it shouldn't be that bad.
#30
Posted 01/10/2011 02:22 AM   
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