3d movies - why so shallow?
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3d movies look reasonable in cinemas (though more depth would be much appreciated), but they only seem to have a few cm of depth on my 27" monitor. Does anyone know why this is? I'm guessing some combination of the following. More separation = more ghosting, especially with the passive tech used in cinemas Less depth = more comfortable for those who aren't used to 3d Separation that looks reasonable on a giant movie screen gets scaled down when released for home viewing, as film depth can't be adjusted in the same way that game depth can be
3d movies look reasonable in cinemas (though more depth would be much appreciated), but they only seem to have a few cm of depth on my 27" monitor. Does anyone know why this is? I'm guessing some combination of the following.

More separation = more ghosting, especially with the passive tech used in cinemas
Less depth = more comfortable for those who aren't used to 3d
Separation that looks reasonable on a giant movie screen gets scaled down when released for home viewing, as film depth can't be adjusted in the same way that game depth can be

#1
Posted 10/27/2013 05:38 PM   
Yep 3d movies look horrible on my 24 inch 3d screen too. On my projector, the 3d is actuelly stronger than in my local movie theaters. Viewing distance is pretty important too, test to see if it makes a difference if you sit a little further away.
Yep 3d movies look horrible on my 24 inch 3d screen too. On my projector, the 3d is actuelly stronger than in my local movie theaters.

Viewing distance is pretty important too, test to see if it makes a difference if you sit a little further away.

#2
Posted 10/27/2013 05:43 PM   
Heres a copy/paste from another thread, sorry for being lazy, but i think it addresses what your asking. The main reason is i because i don't think they do anything at all with the convergence point when they "port" it to media formats intended for smaller screens. Just a heads up, this was written for TVLanders. [quote]The problem is that you can't cause children's and smaller person's eyes to diverge outward. At least in principle. I know a little bit is okay with my eyes, because i keep a ruler next to my computer and notice the max separation is sometimes slightly higher than my IPD (interpupilary distance) and its okay if its a tiny amount. But, i don't think you can plan to do this when making a film, especially when the movie has a rating that allows for children coming in and possibly sitting in the front row. So i think until we modify the glasses with a refraction ability or restrict audience members by age, having different versions, 3D movies will always be a compromise because of the differing IPDs and viewing distances. It occurs to me that 3D movies made specifically for IMAX may have less perceived depth in smaller theaters due to the shortening of the lengths between images taking the same film and displaying it in, simply smaller dimensions. Or, more specifically, it may push the available depth, or, the scene, closer to you, when it was already too close to begin with. Stars and the Earth, for example, in Gravity were smaller than my IPD in an IMAX theater. I would normally set those to exactly my IPD in games. MORAL OF THE STORY is: this is why i feel it is so important to utilize the "3D perspective" or "3D position" setting in the TV options to make the majority of the scenery more real looking and give it more depth. Human depth perception falls off at a certain point, so you really just need to push the scene back a little in some cases to make the majority of it look the most real it can look.[/quote]
Heres a copy/paste from another thread, sorry for being lazy, but i think it addresses what your asking. The main reason is i because i don't think they do anything at all with the convergence point when they "port" it to media formats intended for smaller screens.

Just a heads up, this was written for TVLanders.
The problem is that you can't cause children's and smaller person's eyes to diverge outward. At least in principle. I know a little bit is okay with my eyes, because i keep a ruler next to my computer and notice the max separation is sometimes slightly higher than my IPD (interpupilary distance) and its okay if its a tiny amount. But, i don't think you can plan to do this when making a film, especially when the movie has a rating that allows for children coming in and possibly sitting in the front row. So i think until we modify the glasses with a refraction ability or restrict audience members by age, having different versions, 3D movies will always be a compromise because of the differing IPDs and viewing distances.

It occurs to me that 3D movies made specifically for IMAX may have less perceived depth in smaller theaters due to the shortening of the lengths between images taking the same film and displaying it in, simply smaller dimensions. Or, more specifically, it may push the available depth, or, the scene, closer to you, when it was already too close to begin with. Stars and the Earth, for example, in Gravity were smaller than my IPD in an IMAX theater. I would normally set those to exactly my IPD in games.


MORAL OF THE STORY is: this is why i feel it is so important to utilize the "3D perspective" or "3D position" setting in the TV options to make the majority of the scenery more real looking and give it more depth. Human depth perception falls off at a certain point, so you really just need to push the scene back a little in some cases to make the majority of it look the most real it can look.

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#3
Posted 10/27/2013 06:49 PM   
Yeah, pretty much what Libertine posted. I'm pretty sure the problem is the IPD. For a movie, they shoot with the idea of a 100 foot screen in mind, and still keep IPD maxed at 6.5cm. For a movie that works, the max separation=max depth, so things on screen that are 6.5cm apart eye to eye, look like they are at infinity. Now when you scale that whole thing down to your small monitor, that 6.5cm of 100 feet, scales down to maybe 1cm on 27 inches. As you know from gaming, 1cm is like 10% on the NVidia dial, and not very compelling depth. Since you typically have no ability to change the separation when playing movies, you are stuck at low depth. Maybe look around for software that will allow you jack around with the separation of playing back movies. They are two separate images, so in theory you should be able to dial it up to where 6.5cm on screen is the max depth expected in the video. (Sorry for switching units all the time, hope it still makes sense.)
Yeah, pretty much what Libertine posted.

I'm pretty sure the problem is the IPD. For a movie, they shoot with the idea of a 100 foot screen in mind, and still keep IPD maxed at 6.5cm. For a movie that works, the max separation=max depth, so things on screen that are 6.5cm apart eye to eye, look like they are at infinity.

Now when you scale that whole thing down to your small monitor, that 6.5cm of 100 feet, scales down to maybe 1cm on 27 inches. As you know from gaming, 1cm is like 10% on the NVidia dial, and not very compelling depth. Since you typically have no ability to change the separation when playing movies, you are stuck at low depth.

Maybe look around for software that will allow you jack around with the separation of playing back movies. They are two separate images, so in theory you should be able to dial it up to where 6.5cm on screen is the max depth expected in the video.

(Sorry for switching units all the time, hope it still makes sense.)

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#4
Posted 10/28/2013 04:38 AM   
I always hear people say movies are 6.5cm separation, has anyone actually confirmed that? One day I'm going to take a ruler with me and measure it. At cinema distance surely 6.5cm would be like 0.01mm on your monitor.
I always hear people say movies are 6.5cm separation, has anyone actually confirmed that? One day I'm going to take a ruler with me and measure it. At cinema distance surely 6.5cm would be like 0.01mm on your monitor.

#5
Posted 10/28/2013 04:57 AM   
Well, it pretty much has to be no larger than 6.5cm, unless I'm missing something. They are really conservative because of the potential kids audience. You can't go larger than 6.5 because divergence will never be acceptable. If anything it's going to be less to be conservative. Like 6.5 on the biggest IMAX screen, and thus less on every smaller screen. Let's do the math. Standard IMAX is 72 x 52.8 feet. 89 feet on diagonal. 6.5cm = 2.6 inches Screen in inches is 52.8 feet x 12 inches/feet = 633.6 inches 2.6 inches out of 633.6 inches wide is 0.0041 percent. 27 inch monitor (diagonal), in a 1920x1080 ratio. From [url]http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2%2By%5E2+%3D+27%5E2+where+y+%3D+1080%2F1920*x[/url] we get x = 23.5 inches wide. I'm using width, rather than diagonal, because we look at the horizontal. 0.0041 of 23.5 inches is 0.096 inches. (or[b] 2.4 mm[/b]) So yeah, really small, but not .01mm. Could be something wrong with my estimate here, but I'd be keenly interested in the actual measurement on screen. Pirateguybrush, if you can pause a movie and measure the difference between left and right images, that would interesting.
Well, it pretty much has to be no larger than 6.5cm, unless I'm missing something. They are really conservative because of the potential kids audience. You can't go larger than 6.5 because divergence will never be acceptable. If anything it's going to be less to be conservative. Like 6.5 on the biggest IMAX screen, and thus less on every smaller screen.

Let's do the math. Standard IMAX is 72 x 52.8 feet. 89 feet on diagonal. 6.5cm = 2.6 inches
Screen in inches is 52.8 feet x 12 inches/feet = 633.6 inches

2.6 inches out of 633.6 inches wide is 0.0041 percent.

27 inch monitor (diagonal), in a 1920x1080 ratio. From
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x%5E2%2By%5E2+%3D+27%5E2+where+y+%3D+1080%2F1920*x
we get x = 23.5 inches wide.

I'm using width, rather than diagonal, because we look at the horizontal.

0.0041 of 23.5 inches is 0.096 inches. (or 2.4 mm)


So yeah, really small, but not .01mm. Could be something wrong with my estimate here, but I'd be keenly interested in the actual measurement on screen.

Pirateguybrush, if you can pause a movie and measure the difference between left and right images, that would interesting.

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#6
Posted 10/28/2013 09:08 AM   
Okay, here are some measurements: Coraline: 0.8cm (from background at 47:05) How to train your dragon: 1.5cm (background at 45:00) The Hobbit: 1.7cm (background at 2:34:38)
Okay, here are some measurements:

Coraline: 0.8cm (from background at 47:05)
How to train your dragon: 1.5cm (background at 45:00)
The Hobbit: 1.7cm (background at 2:34:38)

#7
Posted 10/28/2013 10:25 AM   
With cyberlink powerdvd pro, you can change the depth, but the problem is when you push the depth (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...
With cyberlink powerdvd pro, you can change the depth, but the problem is when you push the depth (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...

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#8
Posted 10/28/2013 10:37 AM   
[quote="chtiblue"]With win dvd pro, you can change the convergence, but the problem is when you push the convergence (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...[/quote] Interesting, better convergence in exchange of black borders may be worthwhile if it looks decent enough. Does DVD Pro support 3d movie files, or does it only work with full blu rays?
chtiblue said:With win dvd pro, you can change the convergence, but the problem is when you push the convergence (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...


Interesting, better convergence in exchange of black borders may be worthwhile if it looks decent enough. Does DVD Pro support 3d movie files, or does it only work with full blu rays?

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#9
Posted 10/28/2013 11:29 AM   
[quote="birthright"][quote="chtiblue"]With win dvd pro, you can change the convergence, but the problem is when you push the convergence (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...[/quote] Interesting, better convergence in exchange of black borders may be worthwhile if it looks decent enough. Does DVD Pro support 3d movie files, or does it only work with full blu rays?[/quote] Sorry it's with [b]cyberlink PowerDvd12[/b], and it's depth that you can adjust and yes powerDvd works all 3D movies files (SBS etc)
birthright said:
chtiblue said:With win dvd pro, you can change the convergence, but the problem is when you push the convergence (yeah it's much better) you become to see black borders on the 2 sides of the screen...


Interesting, better convergence in exchange of black borders may be worthwhile if it looks decent enough. Does DVD Pro support 3d movie files, or does it only work with full blu rays?


Sorry it's with cyberlink PowerDvd12, and it's depth that you can adjust and yes powerDvd works all 3D movies files (SBS etc)

http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/chtiblue/album/530b52d4cb85770d6e000049/3Dvision with 49" Philips 49PUS7100 interlieved 3D (3840x2160) overide mode, GTX 1080 GFA2 EXOC, core i5 @4.3GHz, 16Gb@2130, windows 7&10 64bit, Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 Marantz 6010 AVR

#10
Posted 10/28/2013 12:33 PM   
You can do the same with stereoscopic player. Interesting posts guys, especially Libertine. Thanks!
You can do the same with stereoscopic player.

Interesting posts guys, especially Libertine. Thanks!

#11
Posted 10/28/2013 03:54 PM   
Thanks chtiblue, I'll give it a try. Stereoscopic player does something similar with directional keys if I remember well, but it doesn't work really well
Thanks chtiblue, I'll give it a try. Stereoscopic player does something similar with directional keys if I remember well, but it doesn't work really well

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#12
Posted 10/28/2013 04:57 PM   
IPD doesn't matter much at all. Percieved depth is a factor of the parallax. (the width between points that should converge) Parallax changes based on how big the image is, and how far you are away from it. If you're watching a movie, the maximum parallax might be 1%. If you're watching on a desktop, the max p might be 4-10%! However, if you've noticed, you can't change camera depth in movies like you can in games. This is because movies have been shot and the depth has already been selected. Yes, you can change the general convergence plane (that's when you'll get black bars!) but you can never adjust the actual 3D effect itself. This means that you're only adjusting the imaginary plane where the movie is being projected. It can help, but isn't the same as a proper screen. Also, the angular resolution of your screen (degrees across from your sitting position) isn't the only factor determining 3D. It also depends how far away from it you are (or how wide your eyes are apart!) Thus, if I'm sitting in front of my 3D projector, and it takes up all my vision - and you're in front of your 27" monitor and it takes up all your vision - My screen will look way more 3D, because I'm focusing on 3D effects much farther away from my face than you are - making it appear way more 3D. The only way to make your 27" monitor look as good as my projector is if you move your eyes closer together. ( with mirrors or prisms or periscopes or something) Which is why IPD doesn't matter much at all. [url="http://www.lightillusion.com/stereo_3d_rules.html"]Here's a page to help you understand more![/url]
IPD doesn't matter much at all.

Percieved depth is a factor of the parallax. (the width between points that should converge)

Parallax changes based on how big the image is, and how far you are away from it.

If you're watching a movie, the maximum parallax might be 1%.

If you're watching on a desktop, the max p might be 4-10%!


However, if you've noticed, you can't change camera depth in movies like you can in games.
This is because movies have been shot and the depth has already been selected.

Yes, you can change the general convergence plane (that's when you'll get black bars!) but you can never adjust the actual 3D effect itself. This means that you're only adjusting the imaginary plane where the movie is being projected. It can help, but isn't the same as a proper screen.


Also, the angular resolution of your screen (degrees across from your sitting position) isn't the only factor determining 3D. It also depends how far away from it you are (or how wide your eyes are apart!)

Thus, if I'm sitting in front of my 3D projector, and it takes up all my vision -
and you're in front of your 27" monitor and it takes up all your vision -

My screen will look way more 3D, because I'm focusing on 3D effects much farther away from my face than you are - making it appear way more 3D.

The only way to make your 27" monitor look as good as my projector is if you move your eyes closer together. ( with mirrors or prisms or periscopes or something)

Which is why IPD doesn't matter much at all.

Here's a page to help you understand more!

#13
Posted 10/28/2013 05:05 PM   
You can't really say the only way to make it look better on a 27" monitor is to move your eyes closer together and yet say IPD is irrelevant ... that link you reference actually proves the opposite, that IPD does in fact matter, as it's part of the equation. Human Interocular = Interpupillary distance (IPD) ... does it not?
You can't really say the only way to make it look better on a 27" monitor is to move your eyes closer together and yet say IPD is irrelevant ... that link you reference actually proves the opposite, that IPD does in fact matter, as it's part of the equation. Human Interocular = Interpupillary distance (IPD) ... does it not?
#14
Posted 10/28/2013 07:02 PM   
Well I tried PowerDVD 12 with man of steel 3d on powerdvd 12 and with some tweaking it actually made the 3d effect better, nothing outstanding but noticeable indeed, thanks chtiblue!
Well I tried PowerDVD 12 with man of steel 3d on powerdvd 12 and with some tweaking it actually made the 3d effect better, nothing outstanding but noticeable indeed, thanks chtiblue!

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#15
Posted 10/29/2013 12:32 AM   
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