[quote="TsaebehT"]...I'll buy PvZ2 on any other platform that isn't 'IAP-ridden'. Buy coins!!! Buy gems!!! Buy ... Buy ... Buy!!! ... bye. :([/quote] Perfectly put! Tragically, PvZ2 is often cited as an example of free-to-play done well!
You make some very good points about there actually being plenty of things Steam don't know about your buying habits. I guess what I'm questioning is whether, if asked what your ideal price for BloodRayne was, would you be accurate and say $2.50? Or would you be hopeful/opportunistic and say 50c? I think many people would take the latter option.
not sure if Proun works in 3D. I had it pre-3D, and don't have it installed anymore. It's a very beautiful game though, and would be terrific in 3D.
Thanks for the wishes!
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]I always hunt for bargains (as do most people), but the main limiting factor on my game purchases is time. Sure, I'll be tempted to buy something if the price drops low enough. But the main reason I'll delay a purchase is because I know I won't get to it for at least 6 months in most circumstances. The inevitable price drops do incentive the wait as well, but there's just no need for me to buy new-release titles unless I'm a huge fan of the devs, or it's interested me enough to bump it to the top of my list.[/quote]Plus, if you wait before you buy, you'll get the benefit of patches, DLC, mods, optimised nvidia drivers, 3D fixes, and more. It's amazing so many people buy games on release, really.
The only reason I buy games on pre-release or day one is as a courtesy to devs or games I love. The last time I did that was for Thief. Which I regretted, because the game was shipped in a truly sloppy state (mainly audio issues, plus the unbelievable April Fools' bug). I still haven't picked it up again after my progress was nullified while playing it on April 1st.
TsaebehT said:...I'll buy PvZ2 on any other platform that isn't 'IAP-ridden'. Buy coins!!! Buy gems!!! Buy ... Buy ... Buy!!! ... bye. :(
Perfectly put! Tragically, PvZ2 is often cited as an example of free-to-play done well!
You make some very good points about there actually being plenty of things Steam don't know about your buying habits. I guess what I'm questioning is whether, if asked what your ideal price for BloodRayne was, would you be accurate and say $2.50? Or would you be hopeful/opportunistic and say 50c? I think many people would take the latter option.
not sure if Proun works in 3D. I had it pre-3D, and don't have it installed anymore. It's a very beautiful game though, and would be terrific in 3D.
Thanks for the wishes!
Pirateguybrush said:I always hunt for bargains (as do most people), but the main limiting factor on my game purchases is time. Sure, I'll be tempted to buy something if the price drops low enough. But the main reason I'll delay a purchase is because I know I won't get to it for at least 6 months in most circumstances. The inevitable price drops do incentive the wait as well, but there's just no need for me to buy new-release titles unless I'm a huge fan of the devs, or it's interested me enough to bump it to the top of my list.
Plus, if you wait before you buy, you'll get the benefit of patches, DLC, mods, optimised nvidia drivers, 3D fixes, and more. It's amazing so many people buy games on release, really.
The only reason I buy games on pre-release or day one is as a courtesy to devs or games I love. The last time I did that was for Thief. Which I regretted, because the game was shipped in a truly sloppy state (mainly audio issues, plus the unbelievable April Fools' bug). I still haven't picked it up again after my progress was nullified while playing it on April 1st.
[quote="Volnaiskra"][I read up an afwul lot about indie developers, since I am one myself now (officially - I just quit my day job today!), and there are actually an increasingly large number of them who are unhappy with the Humble Bundle and, to a lesser extent, Steam Sales.[/quote]I also wish you the best of luck with your new endevour. My offer for help on 3D still stands, if you run into problems getting it in 3D.
[quote="Volnaiskra"]I don't think it's particularly fascinating. Basically, every Humble Bundle I've seen follows the same simple pattern: a bunch of opportunists start the average price at around the lowest possible price of 1c, after which it slowly and incrementally goes up because the system essentially *forces* it to, by withholding certain games unless you go above the average price.
So it's actually not pure market theory in the way you describe it, because the sellers have essentially manufactured the system to continually increase in price. If this incentivisation wasn't in place, the average price would no doubt remain at a few cents for the duration of almost each bundle, and the whole project would fall apart. This doesn't show you "pure free market". This merely shows you *looting mentality*.[/quote]Um, well, I hate to always argue, but I really think you have this upside down.
This is the purest form of free markets, where the sellers and the buyers are meeting and agreeing. Nobody forced the developers to offer their wares at 1c, that was their choice. A lot of the stuff is ancient and getting absolutely zero sales, so the thinking might be that anything is better than nothing.
For the buyers, this is exactly the right spot for them, they decide whether it's worth anything at all to THEM. Each buyer has a price that they care about, and the important thing is it's not the same number for everyone. Some people will be a second copy if it's $2.50, but not at $10. Some people find $10 to be no problem. I always pay $20 and send 85% to the charity. Some people are cheap bastards and pay 5c for a pack, because they can. But really, so what? That's still 5c more than they would have otherwise spent. Without the market and the sale, the developer would get zero instead. Is that really better?
Your post suggests that you don't believe free markets work. If that's true, we'll never agree, because our ideologies are simply too far apart.
This is the part where I think you have it upside down. There is no set price that is correct. You cannot sell anything, especially software, on a bill of materials basis. You can only charge what the market is interested in paying. If that doesn't happen to cover your costs, then you don't have a viable business and you fail.
Something like software and games that are strictly optional/luxury items really have wildly varying [i]value[/i] to different people. Value is different than price. This is why Steam sales are so popular and so successful. People love a deal, and you also get the price into a range that is where many more individual people value it. I'm not paying $60 for Bioshock Infinite, ever. But if it drops to $10, where I value it, I'll buy. If they just keep it at $60 as being the 'appropriate' price, then they will never see my $10 or the other million people who also think $10 is about right.
Just my opinion, but I really think that if you are starting off thinking your customers, your CUSTOMERS, are thieves and looters when given half a chance, that you are in for a world of hurt. You might have the best game in the world, but if doesn't meet the customers criteria, including what they are willing to pay, then you have no sale.
This is not completely academic for me. A long while back when I was super burned out on software, I worked with a friend to make a toy we called PolyDoodle. [url]http://www.twotinkers.com/[/url] It's like stained glass, but sticks to glass, and embodies tiling elements.
[img]http://www.twotinkers.com/img/polymontage2.jpg[/img]
We made it all from scratch, got them built, packaged, marketed, the whole shebang. Everyone who played with them thought they were great.
Long story short, the project was a failure. We made back our costs, but nothing more. We priced them based on bill of materials plus markup, because unlike software, the nth copy is not free to make. But the real problem was not the price.
The problem was that it was nearly impossible to get anyone's [i]attention[/i]. This is the real test of a business and I would submit, any game made today.
Volnaiskra said:[I read up an afwul lot about indie developers, since I am one myself now (officially - I just quit my day job today!), and there are actually an increasingly large number of them who are unhappy with the Humble Bundle and, to a lesser extent, Steam Sales.
I also wish you the best of luck with your new endevour. My offer for help on 3D still stands, if you run into problems getting it in 3D.
Volnaiskra said:I don't think it's particularly fascinating. Basically, every Humble Bundle I've seen follows the same simple pattern: a bunch of opportunists start the average price at around the lowest possible price of 1c, after which it slowly and incrementally goes up because the system essentially *forces* it to, by withholding certain games unless you go above the average price.
So it's actually not pure market theory in the way you describe it, because the sellers have essentially manufactured the system to continually increase in price. If this incentivisation wasn't in place, the average price would no doubt remain at a few cents for the duration of almost each bundle, and the whole project would fall apart. This doesn't show you "pure free market". This merely shows you *looting mentality*.
Um, well, I hate to always argue, but I really think you have this upside down.
This is the purest form of free markets, where the sellers and the buyers are meeting and agreeing. Nobody forced the developers to offer their wares at 1c, that was their choice. A lot of the stuff is ancient and getting absolutely zero sales, so the thinking might be that anything is better than nothing.
For the buyers, this is exactly the right spot for them, they decide whether it's worth anything at all to THEM. Each buyer has a price that they care about, and the important thing is it's not the same number for everyone. Some people will be a second copy if it's $2.50, but not at $10. Some people find $10 to be no problem. I always pay $20 and send 85% to the charity. Some people are cheap bastards and pay 5c for a pack, because they can. But really, so what? That's still 5c more than they would have otherwise spent. Without the market and the sale, the developer would get zero instead. Is that really better?
Your post suggests that you don't believe free markets work. If that's true, we'll never agree, because our ideologies are simply too far apart.
This is the part where I think you have it upside down. There is no set price that is correct. You cannot sell anything, especially software, on a bill of materials basis. You can only charge what the market is interested in paying. If that doesn't happen to cover your costs, then you don't have a viable business and you fail.
Something like software and games that are strictly optional/luxury items really have wildly varying value to different people. Value is different than price. This is why Steam sales are so popular and so successful. People love a deal, and you also get the price into a range that is where many more individual people value it. I'm not paying $60 for Bioshock Infinite, ever. But if it drops to $10, where I value it, I'll buy. If they just keep it at $60 as being the 'appropriate' price, then they will never see my $10 or the other million people who also think $10 is about right.
Just my opinion, but I really think that if you are starting off thinking your customers, your CUSTOMERS, are thieves and looters when given half a chance, that you are in for a world of hurt. You might have the best game in the world, but if doesn't meet the customers criteria, including what they are willing to pay, then you have no sale.
This is not completely academic for me. A long while back when I was super burned out on software, I worked with a friend to make a toy we called PolyDoodle. http://www.twotinkers.com/ It's like stained glass, but sticks to glass, and embodies tiling elements.
We made it all from scratch, got them built, packaged, marketed, the whole shebang. Everyone who played with them thought they were great.
Long story short, the project was a failure. We made back our costs, but nothing more. We priced them based on bill of materials plus markup, because unlike software, the nth copy is not free to make. But the real problem was not the price.
The problem was that it was nearly impossible to get anyone's attention. This is the real test of a business and I would submit, any game made today.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Quick! Go make an app called PolyFarmDoodleDayVille with collectible tiles/colors and glass locations laden with IAPs/iAds and you'll be rich!!! ... well as long as you make the game full of menial tasks that take way too long to complete and somehow get it into 'mainstream' media ... ;)
edit: if you need any pointers about this 'model' and don't want to actually play anything iRelated ... play the game DLC Quest, it's not 3D but it's probably one of the best games ever created. Lol.
edit: ... remarket them without triangles ... just squares ... call them PolyPixels and use '8-bit' palettes ... O.o
Quick! Go make an app called PolyFarmDoodleDayVille with collectible tiles/colors and glass locations laden with IAPs/iAds and you'll be rich!!! ... well as long as you make the game full of menial tasks that take way too long to complete and somehow get it into 'mainstream' media ... ;)
edit: if you need any pointers about this 'model' and don't want to actually play anything iRelated ... play the game DLC Quest, it's not 3D but it's probably one of the best games ever created. Lol.
edit: ... remarket them without triangles ... just squares ... call them PolyPixels and use '8-bit' palettes ... O.o
One more day of sale, and all normal sales expire at 10 am (PDT) on Monday. Sunday will be the encore day, when good games come back around.
Anybody have something they think is a must-have that might show on encore day?
I can start with Typing for the Dead: Overkill. Crazy, Pulp Fiction type game, waaay over the top and amusing if you like SouthPark type humor. 3D is perfect in the main game. I got it at 66% off on a flash sale, right now 50% off.
[url]http://store.steampowered.com/app/246580/[/url]
One more day of sale, and all normal sales expire at 10 am (PDT) on Monday. Sunday will be the encore day, when good games come back around.
Anybody have something they think is a must-have that might show on encore day?
I can start with Typing for the Dead: Overkill. Crazy, Pulp Fiction type game, waaay over the top and amusing if you like SouthPark type humor. 3D is perfect in the main game. I got it at 66% off on a flash sale, right now 50% off.
Rock of Ages is wicked cheap, and an absolute delight of a game. It's a great mix of genres and a total blast. It looks good too. Definitely recommend it the most possible.
I'm gonna copy what I said over in another thread on Neogaf here, because I really think the game is worth 10x the asking price (it's only $2!!!)
Everyone who hasn't bought Rock of Ages should.
It's [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/app/22230/"]TWO DOLLARS[/URL] and an incredibly creative twist of mixing two genres. It's from the creators of Zeno Clash.
You are Sisyphus and control a giant boulder. You have to get to the bottom of the hill to smash down a door and destroy the enemy hiding behind it.
Meanwhile the enemy is doing the same.
Everytime you hit the door with your boulder you've gotta wait for a new boulder to get built so you can hit the door again. While it's being built, you go top down RTS style and put up traps and stopgaps for your enemy as the enemy does the same.
Also, all of the art is taking examples from classic pieces of famous art and ripping it into the game as characters and looks lovely. It's also really funny.
I cannot recommend this game enough. The single player is fantastic. The competitive multiplayer is a blast. The mix of the genres goes together so smoothly and it's an absolute treat front to back. It can actually get pretty tough at times too, for those who like a challenge. Properly utilizing blockades, war elephants, catapults, bombs, etc etc becomes pretty vital.
And it works with GeDoSaTo!
[QUOTE][IMG]http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/173/9/f/screenshot_2014_06_22_22_03_11_by_aloo81-d7njqfa.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/173/f/b/screenshot_2014_06_22_22_01_15_by_aloo81-d7njqca.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/173/a/6/screenshot_2014_06_22_22_07_50_by_aloo81-d7njqbn.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Seriously, you should check it out. It's worth your time, and definitely worth at least 2 bucks.
Rock of Ages is wicked cheap, and an absolute delight of a game. It's a great mix of genres and a total blast. It looks good too. Definitely recommend it the most possible.
I'm gonna copy what I said over in another thread on Neogaf here, because I really think the game is worth 10x the asking price (it's only $2!!!)
Everyone who hasn't bought Rock of Ages should.
It's TWO DOLLARS and an incredibly creative twist of mixing two genres. It's from the creators of Zeno Clash.
You are Sisyphus and control a giant boulder. You have to get to the bottom of the hill to smash down a door and destroy the enemy hiding behind it.
Meanwhile the enemy is doing the same.
Everytime you hit the door with your boulder you've gotta wait for a new boulder to get built so you can hit the door again. While it's being built, you go top down RTS style and put up traps and stopgaps for your enemy as the enemy does the same.
Also, all of the art is taking examples from classic pieces of famous art and ripping it into the game as characters and looks lovely. It's also really funny.
I cannot recommend this game enough. The single player is fantastic. The competitive multiplayer is a blast. The mix of the genres goes together so smoothly and it's an absolute treat front to back. It can actually get pretty tough at times too, for those who like a challenge. Properly utilizing blockades, war elephants, catapults, bombs, etc etc becomes pretty vital.
And it works with GeDoSaTo!
[QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
Seriously, you should check it out. It's worth your time, and definitely worth at least 2 bucks.
The Overlord games are not a must have, but work well in 3D.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/2464/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/ethor/image/4e4072cc3785013776440800/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/solutiongaming/image/517f36105ec346e57700015f/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/solutiongaming/image/517f377b5ec3468e72000125/
The Oddworld games are OpenGl so they unfortunately do not work in 3D. But can be fun.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/6951/
FYI for Oddworld fans:
Oddworld: New 'n' Tasty is releasing this month but will not be on the PC :(
http://www.oddworld.com/oddworldgames/new-n-tasty/
You make some very good points about there actually being plenty of things Steam don't know about your buying habits. I guess what I'm questioning is whether, if asked what your ideal price for BloodRayne was, would you be accurate and say $2.50? Or would you be hopeful/opportunistic and say 50c? I think many people would take the latter option.
not sure if Proun works in 3D. I had it pre-3D, and don't have it installed anymore. It's a very beautiful game though, and would be terrific in 3D.
Thanks for the wishes!
Plus, if you wait before you buy, you'll get the benefit of patches, DLC, mods, optimised nvidia drivers, 3D fixes, and more. It's amazing so many people buy games on release, really.
The only reason I buy games on pre-release or day one is as a courtesy to devs or games I love. The last time I did that was for Thief. Which I regretted, because the game was shipped in a truly sloppy state (mainly audio issues, plus the unbelievable April Fools' bug). I still haven't picked it up again after my progress was nullified while playing it on April 1st.
Um, well, I hate to always argue, but I really think you have this upside down.
This is the purest form of free markets, where the sellers and the buyers are meeting and agreeing. Nobody forced the developers to offer their wares at 1c, that was their choice. A lot of the stuff is ancient and getting absolutely zero sales, so the thinking might be that anything is better than nothing.
For the buyers, this is exactly the right spot for them, they decide whether it's worth anything at all to THEM. Each buyer has a price that they care about, and the important thing is it's not the same number for everyone. Some people will be a second copy if it's $2.50, but not at $10. Some people find $10 to be no problem. I always pay $20 and send 85% to the charity. Some people are cheap bastards and pay 5c for a pack, because they can. But really, so what? That's still 5c more than they would have otherwise spent. Without the market and the sale, the developer would get zero instead. Is that really better?
Your post suggests that you don't believe free markets work. If that's true, we'll never agree, because our ideologies are simply too far apart.
This is the part where I think you have it upside down. There is no set price that is correct. You cannot sell anything, especially software, on a bill of materials basis. You can only charge what the market is interested in paying. If that doesn't happen to cover your costs, then you don't have a viable business and you fail.
Something like software and games that are strictly optional/luxury items really have wildly varying value to different people. Value is different than price. This is why Steam sales are so popular and so successful. People love a deal, and you also get the price into a range that is where many more individual people value it. I'm not paying $60 for Bioshock Infinite, ever. But if it drops to $10, where I value it, I'll buy. If they just keep it at $60 as being the 'appropriate' price, then they will never see my $10 or the other million people who also think $10 is about right.
Just my opinion, but I really think that if you are starting off thinking your customers, your CUSTOMERS, are thieves and looters when given half a chance, that you are in for a world of hurt. You might have the best game in the world, but if doesn't meet the customers criteria, including what they are willing to pay, then you have no sale.
This is not completely academic for me. A long while back when I was super burned out on software, I worked with a friend to make a toy we called PolyDoodle. http://www.twotinkers.com/ It's like stained glass, but sticks to glass, and embodies tiling elements.
We made it all from scratch, got them built, packaged, marketed, the whole shebang. Everyone who played with them thought they were great.
Long story short, the project was a failure. We made back our costs, but nothing more. We priced them based on bill of materials plus markup, because unlike software, the nth copy is not free to make. But the real problem was not the price.
The problem was that it was nearly impossible to get anyone's attention. This is the real test of a business and I would submit, any game made today.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
edit: if you need any pointers about this 'model' and don't want to actually play anything iRelated ... play the game DLC Quest, it's not 3D but it's probably one of the best games ever created. Lol.
edit: ... remarket them without triangles ... just squares ... call them PolyPixels and use '8-bit' palettes ... O.o
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
Anybody have something they think is a must-have that might show on encore day?
I can start with Typing for the Dead: Overkill. Crazy, Pulp Fiction type game, waaay over the top and amusing if you like SouthPark type humor. 3D is perfect in the main game. I got it at 66% off on a flash sale, right now 50% off.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/246580/
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
I'm gonna copy what I said over in another thread on Neogaf here, because I really think the game is worth 10x the asking price (it's only $2!!!)
Everyone who hasn't bought Rock of Ages should.
It's TWO DOLLARS and an incredibly creative twist of mixing two genres. It's from the creators of Zeno Clash.
You are Sisyphus and control a giant boulder. You have to get to the bottom of the hill to smash down a door and destroy the enemy hiding behind it.
Meanwhile the enemy is doing the same.
Everytime you hit the door with your boulder you've gotta wait for a new boulder to get built so you can hit the door again. While it's being built, you go top down RTS style and put up traps and stopgaps for your enemy as the enemy does the same.
Also, all of the art is taking examples from classic pieces of famous art and ripping it into the game as characters and looks lovely. It's also really funny.
I cannot recommend this game enough. The single player is fantastic. The competitive multiplayer is a blast. The mix of the genres goes together so smoothly and it's an absolute treat front to back. It can actually get pretty tough at times too, for those who like a challenge. Properly utilizing blockades, war elephants, catapults, bombs, etc etc becomes pretty vital.
And it works with GeDoSaTo!
[QUOTE]
Seriously, you should check it out. It's worth your time, and definitely worth at least 2 bucks.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/2464/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/ethor/image/4e4072cc3785013776440800/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/solutiongaming/image/517f36105ec346e57700015f/
http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/solutiongaming/image/517f377b5ec3468e72000125/
The Oddworld games are OpenGl so they unfortunately do not work in 3D. But can be fun.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/6951/
FYI for Oddworld fans:
Oddworld: New 'n' Tasty is releasing this month but will not be on the PC :(
http://www.oddworld.com/oddworldgames/new-n-tasty/
|CPU: i7-2700k @ 4.5Ghz
|Cooler: Zalman 9900 Max
|MB: MSI Military Class II Z68 GD-80
|RAM: Corsair Vengence 16GB DDR3
|SSDs: Seagate 600 240GB; Crucial M4 128GB
|HDDs: Seagate Barracuda 1TB; Seagate Barracuda 500GB
|PS: OCZ ZX Series 1250watt
|Case: Antec 1200 V3
|Monitors: Asus 3D VG278HE; Asus 3D VG236H; Samsung 3D 51" Plasma;
|GPU:MSI 1080GTX "Duke"
|OS: Windows 10 Pro X64
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]