anti-ghosting-shader/filter please!
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[quote name='Scarab' date='Mar 3 2007, 12:34 PM']you can get my 6600GT if i get your 8800 /yes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':yes:' />

( :o <--why here is an Hitler smiley???  /thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' /> )
lets get back to topic now.

Chopper: can you test it on your system?

i can make a tutorial about remove ghosting in screenshots if someone want.
[right][snapback]166487[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I will add the game to our certification list for sure.

I started a thread in the mtbs3d.com forum about cutting out tech problems like ghosting. However, it's not as exhaustive as I'd like.

If you have ideas you can share, it's a sticky, and you're welcome to add to it.

Regards,
Chopper :magic:
[quote name='Scarab' date='Mar 3 2007, 12:34 PM']you can get my 6600GT if i get your 8800 /yes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':yes:' />



( :o <--why here is an Hitler smiley???  /thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' /> )

lets get back to topic now.



Chopper: can you test it on your system?



i can make a tutorial about remove ghosting in screenshots if someone want.

[snapback]166487[/snapback]








I will add the game to our certification list for sure.



I started a thread in the mtbs3d.com forum about cutting out tech problems like ghosting. However, it's not as exhaustive as I'd like.



If you have ideas you can share, it's a sticky, and you're welcome to add to it.



Regards,

Chopper :magic:

#16
Posted 03/03/2007 06:14 PM   
I'm not sure what you're doing scarab. Are you taking stereo pictures from the game and then editing those pictures?

If so, then it won't help will in-game correct?

Or please help me understand better if this is not the case.
Thanks.
-Nate
I'm not sure what you're doing scarab. Are you taking stereo pictures from the game and then editing those pictures?



If so, then it won't help will in-game correct?



Or please help me understand better if this is not the case.

Thanks.

-Nate

#17
Posted 03/03/2007 06:45 PM   
correct. i have no programming skill. i cant progamm something to remove it but i can edit some screenshots to show people how it works and that is possible. the way to remove ghosting in screenshots and in games is the same.

we just must find someone who have programming skill and tell him what to do. i allready ask some developers of the opensource game Qube and Sauerbraten but they dont have time do programm it.

i even would pay some money for a programm/tool/shader that remove ghosting. maybe $20 or $30.
correct. i have no programming skill. i cant progamm something to remove it but i can edit some screenshots to show people how it works and that is possible. the way to remove ghosting in screenshots and in games is the same.



we just must find someone who have programming skill and tell him what to do. i allready ask some developers of the opensource game Qube and Sauerbraten but they dont have time do programm it.



i even would pay some money for a programm/tool/shader that remove ghosting. maybe $20 or $30.

#18
Posted 03/03/2007 07:49 PM   
I recently bought a set of edimensional 3d shutterglasses. they were an pain in the neck to get to work. I have the NVIDIA 7900 gs card and a lcd monitor. To make a long story short I had to pull my old massive small screen crt monitor out of the basment to make it work the way it should. No ghost, no jitter, cristal clear and perfect 3d.
I recently bought a set of edimensional 3d shutterglasses. they were an pain in the neck to get to work. I have the NVIDIA 7900 gs card and a lcd monitor. To make a long story short I had to pull my old massive small screen crt monitor out of the basment to make it work the way it should. No ghost, no jitter, cristal clear and perfect 3d.

#19
Posted 03/06/2007 02:18 AM   
Darkhorse!

It's good to see a new face on the block!

Check out the 3D Advocacy thread. We need every member we can muster.

Regards.
Chopper :magic:
Darkhorse!



It's good to see a new face on the block!



Check out the 3D Advocacy thread. We need every member we can muster.



Regards.

Chopper :magic:

#20
Posted 03/06/2007 02:37 AM   
[quote name='DarkHorse' date='Mar 5 2007, 06:18 PM']To make a long story short I had to pull my old massive small screen crt monitor out of the basment to make it work the way it should. No ghost, no jitter, cristal clear and perfect 3d.
[right][snapback]167716[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
What monitor do you use? Maybe you are a very very lucky person who has a monitor with p43 phosphor.
[quote name='DarkHorse' date='Mar 5 2007, 06:18 PM']To make a long story short I had to pull my old massive small screen crt monitor out of the basment to make it work the way it should. No ghost, no jitter, cristal clear and perfect 3d.

[snapback]167716[/snapback]




What monitor do you use? Maybe you are a very very lucky person who has a monitor with p43 phosphor.

#21
Posted 03/06/2007 03:22 PM   
Whoa, did this guy do what I think he did? That is, did he SUBTRACT out the ghost image from the original image?!

That's so simple, yet so very brilliant. /w00t.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00t:' /> Good job Scarab

I have to disagree with most of you about the main cause of ghosting, for me at least. I don't believe that it is the decay so much as it is that the shutter does not go completely black when closed, so that you are still able to see some of the other "open" eye's image.

I have the e-Dimensional glasses and when they malfunctioned once, it was stuck with one eye "closed", but I was still able to see through it a little bit. This would explain why a simple 20% subtraction works instead of a more complex brightness/decay formula.

I think the subtraction method will do OK in most situations, except for very bright objects against very dark objects (resulting in "negative" brightness, which is not possible).

This could one of those "easy" additions to the nVidia driver, if it were ever possible to do such a thing. A separate driver or program solution would probably be more complicated, but certainly possible.
Whoa, did this guy do what I think he did? That is, did he SUBTRACT out the ghost image from the original image?!



That's so simple, yet so very brilliant. /w00t.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00t:' /> Good job Scarab



I have to disagree with most of you about the main cause of ghosting, for me at least. I don't believe that it is the decay so much as it is that the shutter does not go completely black when closed, so that you are still able to see some of the other "open" eye's image.



I have the e-Dimensional glasses and when they malfunctioned once, it was stuck with one eye "closed", but I was still able to see through it a little bit. This would explain why a simple 20% subtraction works instead of a more complex brightness/decay formula.



I think the subtraction method will do OK in most situations, except for very bright objects against very dark objects (resulting in "negative" brightness, which is not possible).



This could one of those "easy" additions to the nVidia driver, if it were ever possible to do such a thing. A separate driver or program solution would probably be more complicated, but certainly possible.

#22
Posted 03/07/2007 01:17 AM   
This is brilliant!
Sure it won't help with shutter glasses not closing completely, but it will definately reduce the ghosting caused by afterglow.

Nvidia has to read this!

Any way to contact the developpers?
This is brilliant!

Sure it won't help with shutter glasses not closing completely, but it will definately reduce the ghosting caused by afterglow.



Nvidia has to read this!



Any way to contact the developpers?

#23
Posted 03/18/2007 01:33 PM   
Hi ,

maybe this should work a bit like :

1. Calculate the brightness/luminanz difference of the two images .

2. Use this as a mask for a kind of 2D-postprocessing effect on each image before output .

3. So lighter parts become slightly darker and vice versa ... all combined with a variable you can adjust in panel ...


But .... this would take much render-time ....

... just a thought ...

Stephan
Hi ,



maybe this should work a bit like :



1. Calculate the brightness/luminanz difference of the two images .



2. Use this as a mask for a kind of 2D-postprocessing effect on each image before output .



3. So lighter parts become slightly darker and vice versa ... all combined with a variable you can adjust in panel ...





But .... this would take much render-time ....



... just a thought ...



Stephan

Windows 10 64bit, AMD Ryzen 5 1600X, Nvidia GTX 780
Acer HN274H and Acer H5360

http://phereo.com/stepsbarto

#24
Posted 03/18/2007 02:18 PM   
Guys, Please; Trust me on this.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

The reason for ghosting is 98% phosphur decay and 2% (read Un-Noticeable) shutters not going balack completely.

Phosphur decay cannot be fixed by what I belive is called an "inverse Mask". Ghosting will still be there.

Scarab, the reason that your image looks to have less ghosting is because the brightness of the image has been just increased so the darker areas are no longer as dark. This means that phospher has to decay less and coupled witht he fact that all brightness in the scene are now about the same, give the appearance of less ghosting.

There might be some good news for you, I remember you wanted a software solution to make it perminent. All you have to do is go into the nVidia control pannel and increase the brightness ALOT. Go into a game, and like your picture, most of the ghosting will have vanished.

Shutters do let through a very small amount of light but it must be remembered that the percentage of the light blocked is immense. So unless you look at a bright pictre through a closed lens and let your pupil dialate to let the little amoung of light in, you will NEVER see it during gaming ie when your pupils are undialated.

Let me give an example: A wrist watch. If it has illumination, then take it outside on a sunny day and light it up. You wont be able to see the light because your eyes have adjusted to bright daylight. Take it inside into a dark room and let your eyes adjust. Now look at the watch again. It will be Very bright.

I hate to dash people's hopes. Sorry. This will Not work. :(
Guys, Please; Trust me on this.



You are barking up the wrong tree.



The reason for ghosting is 98% phosphur decay and 2% (read Un-Noticeable) shutters not going balack completely.



Phosphur decay cannot be fixed by what I belive is called an "inverse Mask". Ghosting will still be there.



Scarab, the reason that your image looks to have less ghosting is because the brightness of the image has been just increased so the darker areas are no longer as dark. This means that phospher has to decay less and coupled witht he fact that all brightness in the scene are now about the same, give the appearance of less ghosting.



There might be some good news for you, I remember you wanted a software solution to make it perminent. All you have to do is go into the nVidia control pannel and increase the brightness ALOT. Go into a game, and like your picture, most of the ghosting will have vanished.



Shutters do let through a very small amount of light but it must be remembered that the percentage of the light blocked is immense. So unless you look at a bright pictre through a closed lens and let your pupil dialate to let the little amoung of light in, you will NEVER see it during gaming ie when your pupils are undialated.



Let me give an example: A wrist watch. If it has illumination, then take it outside on a sunny day and light it up. You wont be able to see the light because your eyes have adjusted to bright daylight. Take it inside into a dark room and let your eyes adjust. Now look at the watch again. It will be Very bright.



I hate to dash people's hopes. Sorry. This will Not work. :(

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#25
Posted 03/18/2007 03:00 PM   
[quote name='Doctor Ebola' date='Mar 18 2007, 05:33 AM']This is brilliant!
Sure it won't help with shutter glasses not closing completely, but it will definately reduce the ghosting caused by afterglow.
[/quote]
In most cases it removes ALL ghosting. i dont know why but it realy removes all.

[quote name='Doctor Ebola' date='Mar 18 2007, 05:33 AM']Nvidia has to read this!

Any way to contact the developpers?
[/quote]
i dont know.
i hope they read this.

[quote name='stepsbarto' date='Mar 18 2007, 06:18 AM']But .... this would take much render-time ....
[/quote]
i dont think so. graphiccards today have a lot of power.
[quote name='Doctor Ebola' date='Mar 18 2007, 05:33 AM']This is brilliant!

Sure it won't help with shutter glasses not closing completely, but it will definately reduce the ghosting caused by afterglow.



In most cases it removes ALL ghosting. i dont know why but it realy removes all.



[quote name='Doctor Ebola' date='Mar 18 2007, 05:33 AM']Nvidia has to read this!



Any way to contact the developpers?



i dont know.

i hope they read this.



[quote name='stepsbarto' date='Mar 18 2007, 06:18 AM']But .... this would take much render-time ....



i dont think so. graphiccards today have a lot of power.

#26
Posted 03/18/2007 03:03 PM   
@ RAGEdemon: i think you dont understand how it works. if a pixel afterglowsd you dont need to re-light it so mutch. the filter "knows" in witch intense a pixel afterglows a calcutale a different re-light value.
maybe someone who can speak english better can explaint it.

maybe look at this picture and try to understand it:
[url="http://www.scarab.kilu2.de/3d-brille/lcdsg.gif"]http://www.scarab.kilu2.de/3d-brille/lcdsg.gif[/url]
@ RAGEdemon: i think you dont understand how it works. if a pixel afterglowsd you dont need to re-light it so mutch. the filter "knows" in witch intense a pixel afterglows a calcutale a different re-light value.

maybe someone who can speak english better can explaint it.



maybe look at this picture and try to understand it:

http://www.scarab.kilu2.de/3d-brille/lcdsg.gif

#27
Posted 03/18/2007 03:35 PM   
Hi Scarab,

I do understand what you are saying /hug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hug:' />

What you are doing is taking the first image, making a brightness map of it, inverting the brightness map and putting this inverted brightness map over the next frame at ~20%. This, in theory, would cancel out the previous "ghost" image.

I will try to explain why it won't work well in a game:

I am just trying to explain, please don't think I am being mean /hug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hug:' />

1) Imagine a very bright light in the left picture. The inverse brightness mask will make a complete black spot there in the right picture to cancel it out, yes? Will this black spot cancel out the bright spot in the previous picture? No. Why? Because nomatter how dark the second picture, the phospher will take time (many frames) to decay away. The brighter the object, the longer (more frames) it will take to fade.

So, it will only "work" IF the "brightness of the bright spot" Minus "scene brightness at the other eye" is LESS than or equal to the "scene brightness at the other eye" itself.

ie Bright spot is brightness: 8
Scene brightness is brightness: 5
Completely dark is brightness: 0

Bright spot - Scene brightness = 3 Brightness units. This means that at the second eye, you will need to decrease brightness by 3 to make "Screen Brightness 5",

So if you put "-3" (Your inverse brightness picture) on top of 5 you will get "2". When "2" is displayed, the bright spot from the other eye will add the "+3" so cene brightness will be 5 again, ie NO GHOSTING.

But what if the scene brightness is 2 or the bright spot brightness is 20? 20-2 still leaves 18 brightness units, which will show up as a Ghost.

Try this on your shutter glasses. Make pictures, one for left eye, other for right eye. Make one white filled circle on the left eye image and make the inverse "black" filled circle image on the right eye image. Make the background of both images Black (ie the right image should be all black).

Now, convert the image to .jps, put on your glasses and close your left eye. According to your theory, the black will have cancelled the white, right? No. the ghost image is still there. But now try making the background "Gray". Yes, Almost No Ghost but for this to happen the gray background has to be quite bright and the image has to be static, ie not moving.

That is the bigger problem:

2) The theory assumes that the ghost image only lasts for one frame after it is drawn. In reality, the ghost image remains for a very long time, ie as many as 30 frames or more after it is drawn. You can see this by going to completely black screen and moving your cursor over the screen. Notice how long the cursor trail takes to fade. About 0.5 seconds? At 100Hz = 100 fps, 0.5 seconds is 50 frames- the ghost image will last for 50 frames - this theory will only work for 2 frames.

Also, the brighter the object, the longer (more frames) it will take to fade.

[i]This means that although this method might work with a static image (2 images) as long as there isnt anything too bright in the scene and the scene itself isn't too dark[/i], we cant do it in games because they have many frames per second.

The worst part is that games have very dark and very bright areas all over which constantly move around at 60fps+ so, as I said in my first post, this will make very little difference, if any at all :(

It will work great for brightness adjusted static pictures though :)
Hi Scarab,



I do understand what you are saying /hug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hug:' />



What you are doing is taking the first image, making a brightness map of it, inverting the brightness map and putting this inverted brightness map over the next frame at ~20%. This, in theory, would cancel out the previous "ghost" image.



I will try to explain why it won't work well in a game:



I am just trying to explain, please don't think I am being mean /hug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':hug:' />



1) Imagine a very bright light in the left picture. The inverse brightness mask will make a complete black spot there in the right picture to cancel it out, yes? Will this black spot cancel out the bright spot in the previous picture? No. Why? Because nomatter how dark the second picture, the phospher will take time (many frames) to decay away. The brighter the object, the longer (more frames) it will take to fade.



So, it will only "work" IF the "brightness of the bright spot" Minus "scene brightness at the other eye" is LESS than or equal to the "scene brightness at the other eye" itself.



ie Bright spot is brightness: 8

Scene brightness is brightness: 5

Completely dark is brightness: 0



Bright spot - Scene brightness = 3 Brightness units. This means that at the second eye, you will need to decrease brightness by 3 to make "Screen Brightness 5",



So if you put "-3" (Your inverse brightness picture) on top of 5 you will get "2". When "2" is displayed, the bright spot from the other eye will add the "+3" so cene brightness will be 5 again, ie NO GHOSTING.



But what if the scene brightness is 2 or the bright spot brightness is 20? 20-2 still leaves 18 brightness units, which will show up as a Ghost.



Try this on your shutter glasses. Make pictures, one for left eye, other for right eye. Make one white filled circle on the left eye image and make the inverse "black" filled circle image on the right eye image. Make the background of both images Black (ie the right image should be all black).



Now, convert the image to .jps, put on your glasses and close your left eye. According to your theory, the black will have cancelled the white, right? No. the ghost image is still there. But now try making the background "Gray". Yes, Almost No Ghost but for this to happen the gray background has to be quite bright and the image has to be static, ie not moving.



That is the bigger problem:



2) The theory assumes that the ghost image only lasts for one frame after it is drawn. In reality, the ghost image remains for a very long time, ie as many as 30 frames or more after it is drawn. You can see this by going to completely black screen and moving your cursor over the screen. Notice how long the cursor trail takes to fade. About 0.5 seconds? At 100Hz = 100 fps, 0.5 seconds is 50 frames- the ghost image will last for 50 frames - this theory will only work for 2 frames.



Also, the brighter the object, the longer (more frames) it will take to fade.



This means that although this method might work with a static image (2 images) as long as there isnt anything too bright in the scene and the scene itself isn't too dark, we cant do it in games because they have many frames per second.



The worst part is that games have very dark and very bright areas all over which constantly move around at 60fps+ so, as I said in my first post, this will make very little difference, if any at all :(



It will work great for brightness adjusted static pictures though :)

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#28
Posted 03/18/2007 06:33 PM   
I would REALLY like to see this in stereo.

What about recording a small demo with fraps, converting each frame to Mjpeg, adding the inverse maps, and then converting to AVI and playing with stereoscopic player? Would this work?

It will be VERY interesting to see the result : /yes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':yes:' />
I would REALLY like to see this in stereo.



What about recording a small demo with fraps, converting each frame to Mjpeg, adding the inverse maps, and then converting to AVI and playing with stereoscopic player? Would this work?



It will be VERY interesting to see the result : /yes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':yes:' />

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#29
Posted 03/18/2007 07:21 PM   
/thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' /> Now i know why you think that it dont can work in games.

1) you are right that it cant work if the scene dont have a minimum brightness. so it dont work in games like doom but a lot of games have in most cases this minimum brightness for example far cry, nfs most wanted, call of duty, ...

2) you say that 1 frame has a long afterglow time (for example 30 frames). if 1 frame afterglows 30 frames the next frame (witch contains the anti-ghosteffect) also has 30 frames afterglow time. so we have 30 frames ghosting and 30 frames anti-ghosting.
(I try to explain it a differnt way: we have a scene with a suitable amount fo minimum brightness. if we use the anti-ghost-effect in 1 frame we have a resulting picture that is like a picture that was the first drawn picture at the monitor. Now we know the resulting ghosting and take it to create the next frame. If we draw this frame we have a resulting picture that is like a picture that was the first drawn picture at the monitor....)

By the way a long afterglow time is not the only main-reason of ghosting: [url="http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2002-09.pdf"]http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2002-09.pdf[/url]
site 8 seems to be very intresting but i cant understand such technical englisch :(
/thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' /> Now i know why you think that it dont can work in games.



1) you are right that it cant work if the scene dont have a minimum brightness. so it dont work in games like doom but a lot of games have in most cases this minimum brightness for example far cry, nfs most wanted, call of duty, ...



2) you say that 1 frame has a long afterglow time (for example 30 frames). if 1 frame afterglows 30 frames the next frame (witch contains the anti-ghosteffect) also has 30 frames afterglow time. so we have 30 frames ghosting and 30 frames anti-ghosting.

(I try to explain it a differnt way: we have a scene with a suitable amount fo minimum brightness. if we use the anti-ghost-effect in 1 frame we have a resulting picture that is like a picture that was the first drawn picture at the monitor. Now we know the resulting ghosting and take it to create the next frame. If we draw this frame we have a resulting picture that is like a picture that was the first drawn picture at the monitor....)



By the way a long afterglow time is not the only main-reason of ghosting: http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2002-09.pdf

site 8 seems to be very intresting but i cant understand such technical englisch :(

#30
Posted 03/19/2007 05:22 PM   
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