Grainy Texture (Horizontal Lines) When In 3D Mode Samsung 2233RZ 22-inch Bundle
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I have just tested my CRT 1280x960 85Hz, and there is no effect of lines in it, with 3D activated (CP with and without stereo activated in emitter/Ctrl+T) or with 3D desactivated in CP. Still it could be what paperninja says, but only triggered when a LCD 120 Hz is connected.

After all it shouldn't be so strange, as if I am not wrong, is just what the driver does when connected to a Mits. DLP screen: it sends a checkerboard signal...So, for a LCD 120 Hz it sends a special signal that is what produces the lines...
I have just tested my CRT 1280x960 85Hz, and there is no effect of lines in it, with 3D activated (CP with and without stereo activated in emitter/Ctrl+T) or with 3D desactivated in CP. Still it could be what paperninja says, but only triggered when a LCD 120 Hz is connected.



After all it shouldn't be so strange, as if I am not wrong, is just what the driver does when connected to a Mits. DLP screen: it sends a checkerboard signal...So, for a LCD 120 Hz it sends a special signal that is what produces the lines...

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Posted 10/02/2009 12:01 PM   
[quote name='Darkbluesky' post='595438' date='Oct 2 2009, 01:01 PM']I have just tested my CRT 1280x960 85Hz, and there is no effect of lines in it, with 3D activated (CP with and without stereo activated in emitter/Ctrl+T) or with 3D desactivated in CP. Still it could be what paperninja says, but only triggered when a LCD 120 Hz is connected.

After all it shouldn't be so strange, as if I am not wrong, is just what the driver does when connected to a Mits. DLP screen: it sends a checkerboard signal...So, for a LCD 120 Hz it sends a special signal that is what produces the lines...[/quote]

Could you show us some close up pics in action please?

The glasses are definately polarized because i have a regular Sammy hdtv above my monitor that if i turn on, wear the glasses and tilt my head to the left/right enough the screen will go dark in both lenses. As if there is some kind of polarization in relation to 'blocking' the scanlines in 3d mode /shifty.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shifty:' />
[quote name='Darkbluesky' post='595438' date='Oct 2 2009, 01:01 PM']I have just tested my CRT 1280x960 85Hz, and there is no effect of lines in it, with 3D activated (CP with and without stereo activated in emitter/Ctrl+T) or with 3D desactivated in CP. Still it could be what paperninja says, but only triggered when a LCD 120 Hz is connected.



After all it shouldn't be so strange, as if I am not wrong, is just what the driver does when connected to a Mits. DLP screen: it sends a checkerboard signal...So, for a LCD 120 Hz it sends a special signal that is what produces the lines...



Could you show us some close up pics in action please?



The glasses are definately polarized because i have a regular Sammy hdtv above my monitor that if i turn on, wear the glasses and tilt my head to the left/right enough the screen will go dark in both lenses. As if there is some kind of polarization in relation to 'blocking' the scanlines in 3d mode /shifty.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shifty:' />

Posted 10/02/2009 02:29 PM   
I have the new 72in Mitsu DLP comming in in a few days, I take pictures of the screen and see if there is scan line or not.
I have the new 72in Mitsu DLP comming in in a few days, I take pictures of the screen and see if there is scan line or not.

Posted 10/02/2009 04:03 PM   
As requested, the photos of the CRT. It is a LG Flatron 795FT+ of 17" and some years of 3D use /whistling.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />

The photos are taken with the same equipment than the others in page 3.

I have made two shots for each application/game:

1- the [b]first [/b]one is with [b]stereo OFF in Nvidia control panel[/b],
2- the [b]second [/b]is with [b]stereo ON in Nvidia control panel but desactivated via emitter or Ctrl+T (except one photo with also 3D Vision activated, the one that has double image ;) ).[/b]

First I post the full photos reduced to a 33%, and then a crop at 100% without modification. Please click in the top bar in each photo to see the difference better. Some photo a slight blur, sorry. I did them a bit rushed so one or two are a bit blurry or even bad focused, but still I think it is enough.

[color="#FF0000"][size=4][b]Call of Duty World at War (partial menu screen):[/b][/size][/color]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144366.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144372.jpg[/img]


[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144367.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144373.jpg[/img]


[color="#FF0000"][size=4][b]Call of Duty World at War (partial menu screen):[/b][/size][/color]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144368.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144374.jpg[/img]


[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144369.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144375.jpg[/img]


[color="#FF0000"][size=4][b]Cooliris (up right corner):[/b][/size][/color]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144370.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144376.jpg[/img]


(Continues in next post)
As requested, the photos of the CRT. It is a LG Flatron 795FT+ of 17" and some years of 3D use /whistling.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':whistling:' />



The photos are taken with the same equipment than the others in page 3.



I have made two shots for each application/game:



1- the first one is with stereo OFF in Nvidia control panel,

2- the second is with stereo ON in Nvidia control panel but desactivated via emitter or Ctrl+T (except one photo with also 3D Vision activated, the one that has double image ;) ).



First I post the full photos reduced to a 33%, and then a crop at 100% without modification. Please click in the top bar in each photo to see the difference better. Some photo a slight blur, sorry. I did them a bit rushed so one or two are a bit blurry or even bad focused, but still I think it is enough.



Call of Duty World at War (partial menu screen):



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





CROP (100%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



CROP (100%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





Call of Duty World at War (partial menu screen):



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





CROP (100%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



CROP (100%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





Cooliris (up right corner):



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



FULL SHOT (33%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





(Continues in next post)

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Posted 10/02/2009 07:09 PM   
(From previous post)

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo OFF in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144371.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144377.jpg[/img]


[color="#FF0000"][size=4][b]NVIDIA 3D Vision test application (top left part of the screen):[/b][/size][/color]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] of course stereo ON in control panel, but emitter desactivated:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144362.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]FULL SHOT (33%):[/b] of course stereo ON in control panel AND emitter activated:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144364.jpg[/img]



[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel, but emitter desactivated:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144363.jpg[/img]

[color="#0000FF"][size=3][b]CROP (100%):[/b] stereo ON in control panel AND emitter activated:[/size][/color]
[img]http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/6285n7XME/1144365.jpg[/img]

Well, the test resolution has been 1280x1024 at 85 Hz. I have not noticed ANY difference, so for me in CRT there are no lines.

Probably is the samsung monitor OR the way the drivers work when detecting the 120 Hz LCDs. There is a way to fool the drivers and make them believe the samsung is a CRT?

Cheers
(From previous post)



CROP (100%): stereo OFF in control panel:

Image



CROP (100%): stereo ON in control panel:

Image





NVIDIA 3D Vision test application (top left part of the screen):



FULL SHOT (33%): of course stereo ON in control panel, but emitter desactivated:

Image



FULL SHOT (33%): of course stereo ON in control panel AND emitter activated:

Image







CROP (100%): stereo ON in control panel, but emitter desactivated:

Image



CROP (100%): stereo ON in control panel AND emitter activated:

Image



Well, the test resolution has been 1280x1024 at 85 Hz. I have not noticed ANY difference, so for me in CRT there are no lines.



Probably is the samsung monitor OR the way the drivers work when detecting the 120 Hz LCDs. There is a way to fool the drivers and make them believe the samsung is a CRT?



Cheers

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Posted 10/02/2009 07:10 PM   
With those last shots from a CRT it is looking like this is more of an issue with the actual monitor. And the fact that no one has posted that they don't see this issue, leads me to believe this is across the board. But the fact that it only happens with the 3D driver running (even if it is disabled) points to the drivers. So it must be a combination of the two. At this point I am starting to wonder is this monitor is even the full 120Hz. Maybe Samsung has figured out some clever trick to attain a faux-120Hz by sacrificing some resolution/color detail (similar to interlacing on old TVs). The fact that the color/gamma settings lock also points the the fact that the monitor is doing some unorthodox hack to achieve "120Hz". I mean, how can we verify this?

[quote name='Darkbluesky' post='595568' date='Oct 2 2009, 03:10 PM']There is a way to fool the drivers and make them believe the samsung is a CRT?[/quote]
Yeah there is, but it would require hacking the EDID on the monitor and if you messed up you could potential brick it.
With those last shots from a CRT it is looking like this is more of an issue with the actual monitor. And the fact that no one has posted that they don't see this issue, leads me to believe this is across the board. But the fact that it only happens with the 3D driver running (even if it is disabled) points to the drivers. So it must be a combination of the two. At this point I am starting to wonder is this monitor is even the full 120Hz. Maybe Samsung has figured out some clever trick to attain a faux-120Hz by sacrificing some resolution/color detail (similar to interlacing on old TVs). The fact that the color/gamma settings lock also points the the fact that the monitor is doing some unorthodox hack to achieve "120Hz". I mean, how can we verify this?



[quote name='Darkbluesky' post='595568' date='Oct 2 2009, 03:10 PM']There is a way to fool the drivers and make them believe the samsung is a CRT?

Yeah there is, but it would require hacking the EDID on the monitor and if you messed up you could potential brick it.
Posted 10/03/2009 01:51 AM   
I got the viewsonic monitor some days ago and thought something looked a little strange but couldn't really tell what it was. I think it has the same problem after looking at these pictures. I have been using crt before on xp with the old nvidia drivers.

Edit: After more investigation, it does not have the problem, it just looks a little different than I was used to with the crt.
I got the viewsonic monitor some days ago and thought something looked a little strange but couldn't really tell what it was. I think it has the same problem after looking at these pictures. I have been using crt before on xp with the old nvidia drivers.



Edit: After more investigation, it does not have the problem, it just looks a little different than I was used to with the crt.

Posted 10/03/2009 03:18 AM   
[quote name='cybereality' post='595692' date='Oct 3 2009, 03:51 AM']But the fact that it only happens with the 3D driver running (even if it is disabled) points to the drivers.[/quote]

Personally, I have never experienced the lines in the samsung with the 3D driver desactivated in control panel...

[quote name='cybereality' post='595692' date='Oct 3 2009, 03:51 AM']Yeah there is, but it would require hacking the EDID on the monitor and if you messed up you could potential brick it.[/quote]

Do we know through which pin of the DVI connector is sending the EDID info? If we'd know then we could try to isolate that pin...
[quote name='cybereality' post='595692' date='Oct 3 2009, 03:51 AM']But the fact that it only happens with the 3D driver running (even if it is disabled) points to the drivers.



Personally, I have never experienced the lines in the samsung with the 3D driver desactivated in control panel...



[quote name='cybereality' post='595692' date='Oct 3 2009, 03:51 AM']Yeah there is, but it would require hacking the EDID on the monitor and if you messed up you could potential brick it.



Do we know through which pin of the DVI connector is sending the EDID info? If we'd know then we could try to isolate that pin...

ASUS Maximus XI Hero (Wi-Fi) // Intel 9700K CPU // 32Gb Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro DDR4 RAM // Asus GTX1060 6Gb Strix GPU // NVIDIA Quadro K620 GPU // Asus My Cinema ES2-750 Capture Card // Orico 7 USB 3.0 PCIe Expansion card // Corsair AX860i PSU // Phanteks Evolv X case // Logitech G903 mouse // Logitech PowerPlay charging mouse pad // Logitech Illuminated keyboard // Wacom Intuos 4 tablet // Creative GigaWorks T20 II speakers // Razer Tiamat 7.1 Headphones // Dell U2413 LCD // 3D Ready Samsung 2233RZ LCD // Nvidia 3D Vision glasses 1 & 2 // 3D compatible Sharp XR-10X DLP Projector // Da-Lite 100" HighPower Gain 2.8 Projection screen // XRite i1Display Pro // MadCatz Cyborg Gaming Lights // NZXT HUE 2 // Corsair Commander Pro // Corsair Lighting Node Pro // IcyBox External HDD // Naturalpoint TrackIR 5 Pro // Microsoft Sidewinder ForceFeedback 2 Red // Thrustmaster Hotas Cougar // Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals // Windows 10 x64

Posted 10/03/2009 08:05 AM   
Have you guys noticed that when you take off your glasses and look at the screen in 3D mode it definitely has a "checker board" appearance? I'm leaning more and more towards the possibility that this is not a true 120hz monitor. This may not even be Nvidia's problem. One curious thing is the fact that you can take screen shots and the scan lines do not even show up. It'd be nice to have an answer from Nvidia on this. Please. Just say, "Hey, we tested it in our labs, and this is because.. bla bla bla". After such a long silence I'm wondering if it's a PR issue at this point. They know why it's doing this, but they don't know how to tell us because there is no fix.
Have you guys noticed that when you take off your glasses and look at the screen in 3D mode it definitely has a "checker board" appearance? I'm leaning more and more towards the possibility that this is not a true 120hz monitor. This may not even be Nvidia's problem. One curious thing is the fact that you can take screen shots and the scan lines do not even show up. It'd be nice to have an answer from Nvidia on this. Please. Just say, "Hey, we tested it in our labs, and this is because.. bla bla bla". After such a long silence I'm wondering if it's a PR issue at this point. They know why it's doing this, but they don't know how to tell us because there is no fix.

Posted 10/06/2009 02:33 PM   
Thing is, if that was the case why don't we get it without the 3d service running? It most definately is putting out 120fps in that mode and the res looks exactly as it would be in 60hz.
Thing is, if that was the case why don't we get it without the 3d service running? It most definately is putting out 120fps in that mode and the res looks exactly as it would be in 60hz.

Posted 10/06/2009 04:52 PM   
you don't really notice the checkerboard pattern if your a little farther away from the monitor. I lean back a bit in my chair and Im never bothered by the checkerboard scanlines. I know this is not a solution but Id still rather play 3D then play in 2D. Hopefully Nvidia will respond.
you don't really notice the checkerboard pattern if your a little farther away from the monitor. I lean back a bit in my chair and Im never bothered by the checkerboard scanlines. I know this is not a solution but Id still rather play 3D then play in 2D. Hopefully Nvidia will respond.

Posted 10/06/2009 05:31 PM   
[quote name='Paperninja' post='597170' date='Oct 6 2009, 04:33 PM']I'm leaning more and more towards the possibility that this is not a true 120hz monitor.[/quote]

Time to take a leisure time. What about playing Mass Effect. This is excelent game.
[quote name='Paperninja' post='597170' date='Oct 6 2009, 04:33 PM']I'm leaning more and more towards the possibility that this is not a true 120hz monitor.



Time to take a leisure time. What about playing Mass Effect. This is excelent game.

Posted 10/06/2009 05:32 PM   
[quote name='lumpeh' post='597240' date='Oct 6 2009, 11:52 AM']Thing is, if that was the case why don't we get it without the 3d service running? It most definately is putting out 120fps in that mode and the res looks exactly as it would be in 60hz.[/quote]

I don't know. The whole thing has me perplexed. The monitor looks great running 120hz with 3D Vision disabled. When you enable the service somehow the image quality gets degraded by a noticeable amount. It has to be the driver, but why is the driver doing it?


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NVIDIA CAN WE PLEASE GET A FREAKING TECHNICAL ANSWER ALREADY
[quote name='lumpeh' post='597240' date='Oct 6 2009, 11:52 AM']Thing is, if that was the case why don't we get it without the 3d service running? It most definately is putting out 120fps in that mode and the res looks exactly as it would be in 60hz.



I don't know. The whole thing has me perplexed. The monitor looks great running 120hz with 3D Vision disabled. When you enable the service somehow the image quality gets degraded by a noticeable amount. It has to be the driver, but why is the driver doing it?





FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NVIDIA CAN WE PLEASE GET A FREAKING TECHNICAL ANSWER ALREADY

Posted 10/07/2009 03:10 PM   
[quote name='Paperninja' post='597729' date='Oct 7 2009, 11:10 AM']I don't know. The whole thing has me perplexed. The monitor looks great running 120hz with 3D Vision disabled. When you enable the service somehow the image quality gets degraded by a noticeable amount. It has to be the driver, but why is the driver doing it?


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NVIDIA CAN WE PLEASE GET A FREAKING TECHNICAL ANSWER ALREADY[/quote]



Agree!

Until this is explained we can assume that either:
1. The driver forces brightness/contrast/gamma settings on the monitor that cause the pixellated appearance.
or
2. The driver causes the horizontal or vertical resolution or both to be reduced by half in order to make 120Hz refresh / syncronization easier for the graphics card and or monitor. i.e. Is it running 1050i (interlaced)?

Cause 1 should be fixable in the driver.
Cause 2 means that the technology has been misrepresented, and may not be so easy to fix.


I am very excited by the promise of real-time stereoscopic 3D. My Nvidia GTX285's and dedicated Physx GTS250 make games like Batman Arkham Asylum look incredible @ 2560x1600 at 60fps. But I am reluctant to purchase the current 3D vision solution that offers only 1680x1050 particularly if it somehow appears "grainy".

Nvidia: partner with toshiba or one of the other large flat panel display players to give us 3DReady screens for living room that can display true 120Hz 1080p. Console games would pale compared to fully antialiased images in stereo 3D @ smooth 60fps. The renaissiance of pc gaming would be at hand!

baragon

[color="#000010"][size=1]MOTHERBOARD: EVGA 780I SLI A2 P-06Bios
CPU: Intel 2 Core Quad QX9650 45nm(OC @ 3.83GHz FSB:1333 @ 1.3200V set in bios)prime95 all day
CPU Cooler: Gigabyte 3D Mercury case with integrated watercooling (cpu only at present)
RAM: 2x2GB OCZ PC8000 SLI (Timing:5-5-5-15-2T@ 2.0V, FSB:DRAM Ratio=2:3)
GRAPHICS: 2X EVGA GTX 285ssc(clocks: 720/1624/1370, stock heatsinks)
Physx: GTS250 512MB 756MHz stock
HDD1: 2X Western Digital Caviar SATA II 250GB 7200 rpm Raid 0
HDD2: Western Digital Caviar SATA II 500GB 7200 rpm
SOUND: On board
OS: Windows Vista Ultimate 32bit SP1
MONITOR: Dell 3008wfp 30" Native Res: 2560X1600 @ 60Hz
PSU: Thermaltake Toughpower 1000W
CASE: Gigabyte 3D Mercury
3DMARK Vantage: 24,920p Current Display Driver:190.62[/size][/color]
[quote name='Paperninja' post='597729' date='Oct 7 2009, 11:10 AM']I don't know. The whole thing has me perplexed. The monitor looks great running 120hz with 3D Vision disabled. When you enable the service somehow the image quality gets degraded by a noticeable amount. It has to be the driver, but why is the driver doing it?





FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NVIDIA CAN WE PLEASE GET A FREAKING TECHNICAL ANSWER ALREADY







Agree!



Until this is explained we can assume that either:

1. The driver forces brightness/contrast/gamma settings on the monitor that cause the pixellated appearance.

or

2. The driver causes the horizontal or vertical resolution or both to be reduced by half in order to make 120Hz refresh / syncronization easier for the graphics card and or monitor. i.e. Is it running 1050i (interlaced)?



Cause 1 should be fixable in the driver.

Cause 2 means that the technology has been misrepresented, and may not be so easy to fix.





I am very excited by the promise of real-time stereoscopic 3D. My Nvidia GTX285's and dedicated Physx GTS250 make games like Batman Arkham Asylum look incredible @ 2560x1600 at 60fps. But I am reluctant to purchase the current 3D vision solution that offers only 1680x1050 particularly if it somehow appears "grainy".



Nvidia: partner with toshiba or one of the other large flat panel display players to give us 3DReady screens for living room that can display true 120Hz 1080p. Console games would pale compared to fully antialiased images in stereo 3D @ smooth 60fps. The renaissiance of pc gaming would be at hand!



baragon



MOTHERBOARD: EVGA 780I SLI A2 P-06Bios

CPU: Intel 2 Core Quad QX9650 45nm(OC @ 3.83GHz FSB:1333 @ 1.3200V set in bios)prime95 all day

CPU Cooler: Gigabyte 3D Mercury case with integrated watercooling (cpu only at present)

RAM: 2x2GB OCZ PC8000 SLI (Timing:5-5-5-15-2T@ 2.0V, FSB:DRAM Ratio=2:3)

GRAPHICS: 2X EVGA GTX 285ssc(clocks: 720/1624/1370, stock heatsinks)

Physx: GTS250 512MB 756MHz stock

HDD1: 2X Western Digital Caviar SATA II 250GB 7200 rpm Raid 0

HDD2: Western Digital Caviar SATA II 500GB 7200 rpm

SOUND: On board

OS: Windows Vista Ultimate 32bit SP1

MONITOR: Dell 3008wfp 30" Native Res: 2560X1600 @ 60Hz

PSU: Thermaltake Toughpower 1000W

CASE: Gigabyte 3D Mercury

3DMARK Vantage: 24,920p Current Display Driver:190.62

Posted 10/07/2009 03:47 PM   
[quote name='MrDonut' post='595706' date='Oct 3 2009, 05:18 AM']Edit: After more investigation, it does not have the problem, it just looks a little different than I was used to with the crt.[/quote]

Please, could you make close up photos with 3D Vision activated in control panel? At side of cooliris or some games, a photo of the Nvidia 3D test (emitter desactivated and activated) would be essential...
[quote name='MrDonut' post='595706' date='Oct 3 2009, 05:18 AM']Edit: After more investigation, it does not have the problem, it just looks a little different than I was used to with the crt.



Please, could you make close up photos with 3D Vision activated in control panel? At side of cooliris or some games, a photo of the Nvidia 3D test (emitter desactivated and activated) would be essential...

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Posted 10/09/2009 01:59 PM   
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