GTX 580 Released It is better and faster than GTX 480
  3 / 4    
[quote name='shr@pnel' date='11 November 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1289465622' post='1144885']
Oh, its Ingmar who's the millionaire... I'm only an "almost millionaire" /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .
I wouldn't dream of replacing SLI GTX 480s( even though I could afford it) with SLI GTX 580s when there's no significant performance difference.
Methinks Ingmar overstates the noise and heat. My rig is neither noisy nor hot.... having a Zotac AMP GTX 480 which is almost noiseless, helps.
Anyway, when I put on my Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones, I can[b] hear nothing but the Game[/b] I'm playing /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />
Like I said earlier, I'll THINK of upgrading when the GTX 680 or something comes along.
Upgrading from SLI GTX 480s just because of the noise and heat (alleged) just doesn't make sense to me !
[/quote]
lol well if money were a factor, I could sell the 480's and recoup at least 70% of the cost of the 580s, easy! So you know, not that big of an outlay for a nice boost. Plus, ignoring the sound issue, the 580's are only around 15% faster in terms of performance [i]TODAY[/i] - the more DX11 content that hits taking advantage of the refined 580's engineering (not to mention new nvidia drivers) will see far larger boosts in the future. Worth keeping in mind.

As for the noise, man common, 480's are LOUD. I'm sure with headphones basting into your head you don't notice it, but the 480's go NUTS when under load.
[quote name='shr@pnel' date='11 November 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1289465622' post='1144885']

Oh, its Ingmar who's the millionaire... I'm only an "almost millionaire" /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .

I wouldn't dream of replacing SLI GTX 480s( even though I could afford it) with SLI GTX 580s when there's no significant performance difference.

Methinks Ingmar overstates the noise and heat. My rig is neither noisy nor hot.... having a Zotac AMP GTX 480 which is almost noiseless, helps.

Anyway, when I put on my Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones, I can hear nothing but the Game I'm playing /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />

Like I said earlier, I'll THINK of upgrading when the GTX 680 or something comes along.

Upgrading from SLI GTX 480s just because of the noise and heat (alleged) just doesn't make sense to me !



lol well if money were a factor, I could sell the 480's and recoup at least 70% of the cost of the 580s, easy! So you know, not that big of an outlay for a nice boost. Plus, ignoring the sound issue, the 580's are only around 15% faster in terms of performance TODAY - the more DX11 content that hits taking advantage of the refined 580's engineering (not to mention new nvidia drivers) will see far larger boosts in the future. Worth keeping in mind.



As for the noise, man common, 480's are LOUD. I'm sure with headphones basting into your head you don't notice it, but the 480's go NUTS when under load.

#31
Posted 11/11/2010 09:11 AM   
[quote name='shr@pnel' date='11 November 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1289465622' post='1144885']
Oh, its Ingmar who's the millionaire... I'm only an "almost millionaire" /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .
I wouldn't dream of replacing SLI GTX 480s( even though I could afford it) with SLI GTX 580s when there's no significant performance difference.
Methinks Ingmar overstates the noise and heat. My rig is neither noisy nor hot.... having a Zotac AMP GTX 480 which is almost noiseless, helps.
Anyway, when I put on my Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones, I can[b] hear nothing but the Game[/b] I'm playing /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />
Like I said earlier, I'll THINK of upgrading when the GTX 680 or something comes along.
Upgrading from SLI GTX 480s just because of the noise and heat (alleged) just doesn't make sense to me !
[/quote]
lol well if money were a factor, I could sell the 480's and recoup at least 70% of the cost of the 580s, easy! So you know, not that big of an outlay for a nice boost. Plus, ignoring the sound issue, the 580's are only around 15% faster in terms of performance [i]TODAY[/i] - the more DX11 content that hits taking advantage of the refined 580's engineering (not to mention new nvidia drivers) will see far larger boosts in the future. Worth keeping in mind.

As for the noise, man common, 480's are LOUD. I'm sure with headphones basting into your head you don't notice it, but the 480's go NUTS when under load.
[quote name='shr@pnel' date='11 November 2010 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1289465622' post='1144885']

Oh, its Ingmar who's the millionaire... I'm only an "almost millionaire" /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .

I wouldn't dream of replacing SLI GTX 480s( even though I could afford it) with SLI GTX 580s when there's no significant performance difference.

Methinks Ingmar overstates the noise and heat. My rig is neither noisy nor hot.... having a Zotac AMP GTX 480 which is almost noiseless, helps.

Anyway, when I put on my Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones, I can hear nothing but the Game I'm playing /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />

Like I said earlier, I'll THINK of upgrading when the GTX 680 or something comes along.

Upgrading from SLI GTX 480s just because of the noise and heat (alleged) just doesn't make sense to me !



lol well if money were a factor, I could sell the 480's and recoup at least 70% of the cost of the 580s, easy! So you know, not that big of an outlay for a nice boost. Plus, ignoring the sound issue, the 580's are only around 15% faster in terms of performance TODAY - the more DX11 content that hits taking advantage of the refined 580's engineering (not to mention new nvidia drivers) will see far larger boosts in the future. Worth keeping in mind.



As for the noise, man common, 480's are LOUD. I'm sure with headphones basting into your head you don't notice it, but the 480's go NUTS when under load.

#32
Posted 11/11/2010 09:11 AM   
The majority of 480s are extremely loud when cranking out stuff in game.

I myself am not a big stickler for noise level, as I most often game on Headphones that support 5.1 surround. The 580 is quieter, and more appealing to a lot of people because of that. I'll be very happy with mine, because of the ridiculous performance increase between what I have now and it.
The majority of 480s are extremely loud when cranking out stuff in game.



I myself am not a big stickler for noise level, as I most often game on Headphones that support 5.1 surround. The 580 is quieter, and more appealing to a lot of people because of that. I'll be very happy with mine, because of the ridiculous performance increase between what I have now and it.

CPU: i7 3930k @ 4.2GHz 1.21V ~ Motherboard: Asus RoG Rampage IV Extreme
RAM: G.Skill Sniper Gaming Series (4x4GB @ 2133MHz, 9-11-10-28-2T 1.65V)
GPUs: 1x R9 280X Vapor-X (Games/F@H), 1x R9 290 Core Edition (F@H), 1x R9 290X Core Edition (F@H)
PSU: LEPA G 1600W (Hate it, don't buy it) ~ Case: Enermax Fulmo GT
SSDs/HDDs: Corsair Force3 240GB, Corsair Force3 90GB, 1x Seagate Momentus XT 750GB
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate ~ Display: Sony Bravia 52" LED LCD HDTV
Laptops: Alienware M18x (2013, GTX 560M SLi) & Alienware M14x (2014, GTX 765M)

#33
Posted 11/11/2010 09:59 AM   
The majority of 480s are extremely loud when cranking out stuff in game.

I myself am not a big stickler for noise level, as I most often game on Headphones that support 5.1 surround. The 580 is quieter, and more appealing to a lot of people because of that. I'll be very happy with mine, because of the ridiculous performance increase between what I have now and it.
The majority of 480s are extremely loud when cranking out stuff in game.



I myself am not a big stickler for noise level, as I most often game on Headphones that support 5.1 surround. The 580 is quieter, and more appealing to a lot of people because of that. I'll be very happy with mine, because of the ridiculous performance increase between what I have now and it.

CPU: i7 3930k @ 4.2GHz 1.21V ~ Motherboard: Asus RoG Rampage IV Extreme
RAM: G.Skill Sniper Gaming Series (4x4GB @ 2133MHz, 9-11-10-28-2T 1.65V)
GPUs: 1x R9 280X Vapor-X (Games/F@H), 1x R9 290 Core Edition (F@H), 1x R9 290X Core Edition (F@H)
PSU: LEPA G 1600W (Hate it, don't buy it) ~ Case: Enermax Fulmo GT
SSDs/HDDs: Corsair Force3 240GB, Corsair Force3 90GB, 1x Seagate Momentus XT 750GB
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate ~ Display: Sony Bravia 52" LED LCD HDTV
Laptops: Alienware M18x (2013, GTX 560M SLi) & Alienware M14x (2014, GTX 765M)

#34
Posted 11/11/2010 09:59 AM   
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick

Twitter: @Dr_Inkduff

<b>Processor:</b> Intel Core i7 920 D0 (4Ghz) <b>Motherboard:</b> ASUS P6T

<b>Memory:</b> 6GB DDR3 RAM (Kingston) <b>Graphics:</b> GTX 260 (216 cores, physX); EVGA GTX 480 SC

<b>OS:</b> Win7 Home Premium 64-bit / Vista Home Premium 64-bit

<b>Hard Disks:</b> 750GB + 500GB <b>Tower:</b> Antec 'Twelve Hundred' Gaming Tower

<b>Monitors:</b> 24" ACER GD245HQbd 120Hz 1920*1080 + 22" widescreen LCD 1680x1050

http://bit.ly/Bluesteel

#35
Posted 11/11/2010 10:19 AM   
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick

Twitter: @Dr_Inkduff

<b>Processor:</b> Intel Core i7 920 D0 (4Ghz) <b>Motherboard:</b> ASUS P6T

<b>Memory:</b> 6GB DDR3 RAM (Kingston) <b>Graphics:</b> GTX 260 (216 cores, physX); EVGA GTX 480 SC

<b>OS:</b> Win7 Home Premium 64-bit / Vista Home Premium 64-bit

<b>Hard Disks:</b> 750GB + 500GB <b>Tower:</b> Antec 'Twelve Hundred' Gaming Tower

<b>Monitors:</b> 24" ACER GD245HQbd 120Hz 1920*1080 + 22" widescreen LCD 1680x1050

http://bit.ly/Bluesteel

#36
Posted 11/11/2010 10:19 AM   
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
[/quote]
Fully agree with you !
It SHOULD have been called a 490.... and minimal performance increase which can be achieved with OCing, not that its necessary...SLI GTX 480 is blazingly fast ! Any new nVidia drivers that make the 580 faster, will do the same for the 480s too !
I can scarcely hear my Cards even without the Headphones.... Ingmar must have got an extra-noisy pair of 480s or extra-sensitive ears /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .
Simply can't agree with Ingmar on this one.
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']

I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick



Fully agree with you !

It SHOULD have been called a 490.... and minimal performance increase which can be achieved with OCing, not that its necessary...SLI GTX 480 is blazingly fast ! Any new nVidia drivers that make the 580 faster, will do the same for the 480s too !

I can scarcely hear my Cards even without the Headphones.... Ingmar must have got an extra-noisy pair of 480s or extra-sensitive ears /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .

Simply can't agree with Ingmar on this one.

Processor- Intel Core I7 920

Mobo- MSI- X58 Pro-E

RAM- 6 GB G. Skill DDR3 RAM

VGA -2xSLI (Zotac AMP GTX 480 and Leadtek GTX 480)

Monitor- Samsung 2233RZ 120 Hz LCD

3D Vision Kit

Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones

PSU- Corsair HX1000 W

Case- Coolermaster HAF 922

Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit

3DMark Vantage Score- 31661

Club SLI Member- SLI-34225 shrapnel

#37
Posted 11/11/2010 12:18 PM   
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
[/quote]
Fully agree with you !
It SHOULD have been called a 490.... and minimal performance increase which can be achieved with OCing, not that its necessary...SLI GTX 480 is blazingly fast ! Any new nVidia drivers that make the 580 faster, will do the same for the 480s too !
I can scarcely hear my Cards even without the Headphones.... Ingmar must have got an extra-noisy pair of 480s or extra-sensitive ears /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .
Simply can't agree with Ingmar on this one.
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 03:49 PM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']

I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick



Fully agree with you !

It SHOULD have been called a 490.... and minimal performance increase which can be achieved with OCing, not that its necessary...SLI GTX 480 is blazingly fast ! Any new nVidia drivers that make the 580 faster, will do the same for the 480s too !

I can scarcely hear my Cards even without the Headphones.... Ingmar must have got an extra-noisy pair of 480s or extra-sensitive ears /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' /> .

Simply can't agree with Ingmar on this one.

Processor- Intel Core I7 920

Mobo- MSI- X58 Pro-E

RAM- 6 GB G. Skill DDR3 RAM

VGA -2xSLI (Zotac AMP GTX 480 and Leadtek GTX 480)

Monitor- Samsung 2233RZ 120 Hz LCD

3D Vision Kit

Razer Megalodon 7.1 Surround Sound Headphones

PSU- Corsair HX1000 W

Case- Coolermaster HAF 922

Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit

3DMark Vantage Score- 31661

Club SLI Member- SLI-34225 shrapnel

#38
Posted 11/11/2010 12:18 PM   
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
[/quote]

I'm sure it was originally going to keep a 400 series number, but with AMD releasing 6000 series, which is a refresh series. I think Nvidia follow from a marketing standpoint as this is also a refresh and dont want to fall behind.

From I think fudzilla, rumors have already surfaced for a GTX 570 w/ 480 CUDA cores.
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']

I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick





I'm sure it was originally going to keep a 400 series number, but with AMD releasing 6000 series, which is a refresh series. I think Nvidia follow from a marketing standpoint as this is also a refresh and dont want to fall behind.



From I think fudzilla, rumors have already surfaced for a GTX 570 w/ 480 CUDA cores.

eVGA Z68 SLI | Intel Core i5-3570K @ 4.5 GHz | Corsair Hydro Series H100i
16GB G.Skill Sniper Series DDR3 | MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G SLIed | OCZ ZX 1000W
OCZ Agility3 120 GB SSD + Samsung 850 Pro 256 GB SSD
Samsung UN55D6000 + Samsung T240
Win10 Pro x64 / WEI - 8.2 - 8.2 - 8.9 - 8.9 - 7.9
3DMark Fire Strike: 15648
F@H Team: 142900

#39
Posted 11/11/2010 05:34 PM   
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']
I don't understand this card at all...

Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?

It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.

Why not just call it a 490?

Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.

Nick
[/quote]

I'm sure it was originally going to keep a 400 series number, but with AMD releasing 6000 series, which is a refresh series. I think Nvidia follow from a marketing standpoint as this is also a refresh and dont want to fall behind.

From I think fudzilla, rumors have already surfaced for a GTX 570 w/ 480 CUDA cores.
[quote name='Dr Nick' date='11 November 2010 - 05:19 AM' timestamp='1289470784' post='1144916']

I don't understand this card at all...



Can someone explain why they put it in a new series (500 series) when its the same chip as in the 400 series?



It will be impossible to make a card such as a 570, since this would essentially be a 480.



Why not just call it a 490?



Also, the performance increase seems minimal. I am water cooling very soon and have little doubt I will be able to overclock my GTX 480 to the point where it performs just as well as a stock 580.



Nick





I'm sure it was originally going to keep a 400 series number, but with AMD releasing 6000 series, which is a refresh series. I think Nvidia follow from a marketing standpoint as this is also a refresh and dont want to fall behind.



From I think fudzilla, rumors have already surfaced for a GTX 570 w/ 480 CUDA cores.

eVGA Z68 SLI | Intel Core i5-3570K @ 4.5 GHz | Corsair Hydro Series H100i
16GB G.Skill Sniper Series DDR3 | MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G SLIed | OCZ ZX 1000W
OCZ Agility3 120 GB SSD + Samsung 850 Pro 256 GB SSD
Samsung UN55D6000 + Samsung T240
Win10 Pro x64 / WEI - 8.2 - 8.2 - 8.9 - 8.9 - 7.9
3DMark Fire Strike: 15648
F@H Team: 142900

#40
Posted 11/11/2010 05:34 PM   
Mis post
Mis post

#41
Posted 11/12/2010 05:50 AM   
Mis post
Mis post

#42
Posted 11/12/2010 05:50 AM   
One of the biggest reasons I feel they went and called it the 5xx series is because to keep with the same marketing strategy that AMD has. For instance, it can be a numbers game... some people don't follow hardware and simply follow generations by numbers. Sometimes they don't get the idea that a card performs x times better and simply look at price and the number series.

Back to topic... if AMD makes a jump in series, a good idea to compete is to give your redesign a new name generation.
~ not saying this is what they did, but it does make sense on a marketing level.

Also it is a different chip, it is a gf110 or something like that.

Not to mention it does perform better, use less power (compared to performance gain) and is a whole heck of a lot quieter.
One of the biggest reasons I feel they went and called it the 5xx series is because to keep with the same marketing strategy that AMD has. For instance, it can be a numbers game... some people don't follow hardware and simply follow generations by numbers. Sometimes they don't get the idea that a card performs x times better and simply look at price and the number series.



Back to topic... if AMD makes a jump in series, a good idea to compete is to give your redesign a new name generation.

~ not saying this is what they did, but it does make sense on a marketing level.



Also it is a different chip, it is a gf110 or something like that.



Not to mention it does perform better, use less power (compared to performance gain) and is a whole heck of a lot quieter.

#43
Posted 11/12/2010 05:51 AM   
One of the biggest reasons I feel they went and called it the 5xx series is because to keep with the same marketing strategy that AMD has. For instance, it can be a numbers game... some people don't follow hardware and simply follow generations by numbers. Sometimes they don't get the idea that a card performs x times better and simply look at price and the number series.

Back to topic... if AMD makes a jump in series, a good idea to compete is to give your redesign a new name generation.
~ not saying this is what they did, but it does make sense on a marketing level.

Also it is a different chip, it is a gf110 or something like that.

Not to mention it does perform better, use less power (compared to performance gain) and is a whole heck of a lot quieter.
One of the biggest reasons I feel they went and called it the 5xx series is because to keep with the same marketing strategy that AMD has. For instance, it can be a numbers game... some people don't follow hardware and simply follow generations by numbers. Sometimes they don't get the idea that a card performs x times better and simply look at price and the number series.



Back to topic... if AMD makes a jump in series, a good idea to compete is to give your redesign a new name generation.

~ not saying this is what they did, but it does make sense on a marketing level.



Also it is a different chip, it is a gf110 or something like that.



Not to mention it does perform better, use less power (compared to performance gain) and is a whole heck of a lot quieter.

#44
Posted 11/12/2010 05:51 AM   
Technically speaking, they should've called it the 485, then made the 495 a Dual-GPU solution of the 580's chip.
Technically speaking, they should've called it the 485, then made the 495 a Dual-GPU solution of the 580's chip.

CPU: i7 3930k @ 4.2GHz 1.21V ~ Motherboard: Asus RoG Rampage IV Extreme
RAM: G.Skill Sniper Gaming Series (4x4GB @ 2133MHz, 9-11-10-28-2T 1.65V)
GPUs: 1x R9 280X Vapor-X (Games/F@H), 1x R9 290 Core Edition (F@H), 1x R9 290X Core Edition (F@H)
PSU: LEPA G 1600W (Hate it, don't buy it) ~ Case: Enermax Fulmo GT
SSDs/HDDs: Corsair Force3 240GB, Corsair Force3 90GB, 1x Seagate Momentus XT 750GB
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate ~ Display: Sony Bravia 52" LED LCD HDTV
Laptops: Alienware M18x (2013, GTX 560M SLi) & Alienware M14x (2014, GTX 765M)

#45
Posted 11/12/2010 07:52 AM   
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