Batman: Arkham Knight - 3D Fix Available!
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Don't buy the season pass, most of the DLC is apparently rubbish. The season of infamy is the only good one, pick it up on it's own.
Don't buy the season pass, most of the DLC is apparently rubbish.

The season of infamy is the only good one, pick it up on it's own.

Posted 02/04/2016 03:09 PM   
I am going to get back onto this after Rise of the Tomb Raider. I did write a script to fix the shaders, but it is not general enough and misses lots of shaders, so I need to revisit it, which is not a small job due to the number of shaders. DSS is going to script the fix for the tile lighting (or if he does not have the bandwidth, I will). I think after that we just need to tidy the HUD up and (possibly) create a dynamic grapple hook.
I am going to get back onto this after Rise of the Tomb Raider. I did write a script to fix the shaders, but it is not general enough and misses lots of shaders, so I need to revisit it, which is not a small job due to the number of shaders. DSS is going to script the fix for the tile lighting (or if he does not have the bandwidth, I will). I think after that we just need to tidy the HUD up and (possibly) create a dynamic grapple hook.

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Posted 02/04/2016 04:00 PM   
I thought tile lighting was a legacy thing for compatibility with older GPUs, is it making a comeback?
I thought tile lighting was a legacy thing for compatibility with older GPUs, is it making a comeback?

Posted 02/04/2016 04:16 PM   
Good news Mike. With Phantom Pain, Tomb Raider, and now Batman.....3D vision is looking more alive then ever. Thanks!! :)
Good news Mike.

With Phantom Pain, Tomb Raider, and now Batman.....3D vision is looking more alive then ever.

Thanks!! :)

Posted 02/04/2016 04:18 PM   
[quote="D-Man11"]I thought tile lighting was a legacy thing for compatibility with older GPUs, is it making a comeback?[/quote] I've not heard of that factor so I don't know if its true, but it's main advantage is that developers can have thousands of lights and greatly minimize the computational overhead. There are several different approaches to doing this that I am not in any way knowledgeable of, but I think that it's likely to become standard in future games, so well worth getting to the bottom of how to fix it (algorithmically that's already sorted, but developing fixing patterns in HLSL or ASM is what we need to do now).
D-Man11 said:I thought tile lighting was a legacy thing for compatibility with older GPUs, is it making a comeback?

I've not heard of that factor so I don't know if its true, but it's main advantage is that developers can have thousands of lights and greatly minimize the computational overhead. There are several different approaches to doing this that I am not in any way knowledgeable of, but I think that it's likely to become standard in future games, so well worth getting to the bottom of how to fix it (algorithmically that's already sorted, but developing fixing patterns in HLSL or ASM is what we need to do now).

Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278

Posted 02/04/2016 05:46 PM   
Yes like Mike said, I tried numerous times to take a stab at Deferred Tile Lighting without getting any real success: BF3, BF4, DA:I, Tomb Raider(2013), Rise of Tomb Raider, StarWars:Battlefront(2015), etc all use it. (On some games you can disable it like in Frostbyte engines). It is done in compute shaders to basically limit the zone from a scene where lights will be calculated by the pixel shader. This allows you to have millions of lights in the same time with great performance. Now mathematically and coding side I understand how it works! Problem is I can't figure out how to do it in stereo! I am still really interested on how DSS fixed it in Batman though;) and I am really curious to see it and more over understand it!
Yes like Mike said, I tried numerous times to take a stab at Deferred Tile Lighting without getting any real success: BF3, BF4, DA:I, Tomb Raider(2013), Rise of Tomb Raider, StarWars:Battlefront(2015), etc all use it.
(On some games you can disable it like in Frostbyte engines).

It is done in compute shaders to basically limit the zone from a scene where lights will be calculated by the pixel shader. This allows you to have millions of lights in the same time with great performance.

Now mathematically and coding side I understand how it works! Problem is I can't figure out how to do it in stereo!

I am still really interested on how DSS fixed it in Batman though;) and I am really curious to see it and more over understand it!

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Posted 02/04/2016 05:57 PM   
I've really no idea, but I was playing a game awhile back and saw TnL=off in the config. When I looked it up, it was to add compatibility to older GPUs that couldn't use newer methods. When I looked into it farther, I only found older games using it. Obviously, it's had a resurgence. Nvidia has a 2009 pdf on it, maybe it will be of some use. http://developer.download.nvidia.com/assets/gamedev/docs/TransformAndLighting.pdf http://www.nvidia.com/object/GPU_D3D_Misconceptions.html
I've really no idea, but I was playing a game awhile back and saw TnL=off in the config. When I looked it up, it was to add compatibility to older GPUs that couldn't use newer methods. When I looked into it farther, I only found older games using it.

Obviously, it's had a resurgence.

Nvidia has a 2009 pdf on it, maybe it will be of some use.

http://developer.download.nvidia.com/assets/gamedev/docs/TransformAndLighting.pdf

http://www.nvidia.com/object/GPU_D3D_Misconceptions.html

Posted 02/04/2016 06:14 PM   
http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/guides/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-graphics-and-performance-guide Crystal Dynamics' Foundation Engine returns for the sequel with upgrades galore. Physically Based Rendering gives materials a natural look under all conditions, HDR and adaptive tone mapping create stunningly bright zone transitions and highlights, deferred lighting with localized Global Illumination increases the realism of lighting, volumetric lighting adds God Rays and other shafts of light, dynamic color grading gives artists control over the appearance of individual areas, reactive water enables dynamic water ripples game-wide, physically correct forward lighting enables translucencies to be accurately lit, particle lighting enables particles to be dynamically lit by light from their surroundings, and Subsurface Scattering and Backscattering increases the quality of lighting on characters' skin. Of the many additions, Crystal Dynamics' use of Side Effects' Houdini software is the most impressive. With this package highly realistic water effects and avalanches were created offline, recorded as Bink videos, and dynamically merged into real-time cutscenes to display visual effects that would be otherwise impossible to render. Less accurate effects could be rendered in real-time, though they wouldn't appear anywhere near as dramatic or thrilling. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ "deferred lighting with localized Global Illumination", that's not TnL is it? How are you going to fix avalanches and water effects if the Bink portion is 2D?
http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/guides/rise-of-the-tomb-raider-graphics-and-performance-guide


Crystal Dynamics' Foundation Engine returns for the sequel with upgrades galore. Physically Based Rendering gives materials a natural look under all conditions, HDR and adaptive tone mapping create stunningly bright zone transitions and highlights, deferred lighting with localized Global Illumination increases the realism of lighting, volumetric lighting adds God Rays and other shafts of light, dynamic color grading gives artists control over the appearance of individual areas, reactive water enables dynamic water ripples game-wide, physically correct forward lighting enables translucencies to be accurately lit, particle lighting enables particles to be dynamically lit by light from their surroundings, and Subsurface Scattering and Backscattering increases the quality of lighting on characters' skin.

Of the many additions, Crystal Dynamics' use of Side Effects' Houdini software is the most impressive. With this package highly realistic water effects and avalanches were created offline, recorded as Bink videos, and dynamically merged into real-time cutscenes to display visual effects that would be otherwise impossible to render. Less accurate effects could be rendered in real-time, though they wouldn't appear anywhere near as dramatic or thrilling.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________


"deferred lighting with localized Global Illumination", that's not TnL is it?

How are you going to fix avalanches and water effects if the Bink portion is 2D?

Posted 02/04/2016 06:36 PM   
TnL is not tile lighting. Regarding the video effects, that would explain why I could make anything happen with the avalanche effect at the beginning of the game. I hope they don't continue this trend, it will kill stereo rendering. Hopefully as VR picks up, the problems with this will be immediately apparent and they will stop doing it. I've not seen anything equivalent for water effects, though I have not completed the first level yet...
TnL is not tile lighting. Regarding the video effects, that would explain why I could make anything happen with the avalanche effect at the beginning of the game. I hope they don't continue this trend, it will kill stereo rendering. Hopefully as VR picks up, the problems with this will be immediately apparent and they will stop doing it. I've not seen anything equivalent for water effects, though I have not completed the first level yet...

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Posted 02/04/2016 11:40 PM   
TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.
TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.

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Posted 02/05/2016 03:11 AM   
[quote="D-Man11"]Of the many additions, Crystal Dynamics' use of Side Effects' Houdini software is the most impressive. With this package highly realistic water effects and avalanches were created offline, recorded as Bink videos, and dynamically merged into real-time cutscenes to display visual effects that would be otherwise impossible to render. Less accurate effects could be rendered in real-time, though they wouldn't appear anywhere near as dramatic or thrilling.[/quote] [quote="mike_ar69"]Regarding the video effects, that would explain why I could make anything happen with the avalanche effect at the beginning of the game. I hope they don't continue this trend, it will kill stereo rendering. Hopefully as VR picks up, the problems with this will be immediately apparent and they will stop doing it. I've not seen anything equivalent for water effects, though I have not completed the first level yet...[/quote] That is a really lame approach the devs took there... Bit of a crazy thought - what if we implemented something like compatibility mode in the pixel shader to try to draw the effect over whatever is behind it? That is of course assuming there is anything behind it to draw on - how do the cutscenes look in CM? Is it possible to pause the cutscene to look at this problem in detail? [s]Edit: Nah, probably a bad idea - I'm picturing this now and I could see this going horribly wrong if anything in the foreground is obscuring the avalanche because I doubt we have enough depth information from the avalanche to know what to draw it over - they might have left a gap in the video for foreground objects, but that wouldn't line up in 3D.[/s] Edit 2: Hmmmm... might be ok... thinking about how it would work the gaps could be made to line up on foreground objects - we'd still have a CM like halo around foreground objects but it might be a better compromise than leaving them in 2D...
D-Man11 said:Of the many additions, Crystal Dynamics' use of Side Effects' Houdini software is the most impressive. With this package highly realistic water effects and avalanches were created offline, recorded as Bink videos, and dynamically merged into real-time cutscenes to display visual effects that would be otherwise impossible to render. Less accurate effects could be rendered in real-time, though they wouldn't appear anywhere near as dramatic or thrilling.

mike_ar69 said:Regarding the video effects, that would explain why I could make anything happen with the avalanche effect at the beginning of the game. I hope they don't continue this trend, it will kill stereo rendering. Hopefully as VR picks up, the problems with this will be immediately apparent and they will stop doing it. I've not seen anything equivalent for water effects, though I have not completed the first level yet...

That is a really lame approach the devs took there... Bit of a crazy thought - what if we implemented something like compatibility mode in the pixel shader to try to draw the effect over whatever is behind it? That is of course assuming there is anything behind it to draw on - how do the cutscenes look in CM? Is it possible to pause the cutscene to look at this problem in detail?

Edit: Nah, probably a bad idea - I'm picturing this now and I could see this going horribly wrong if anything in the foreground is obscuring the avalanche because I doubt we have enough depth information from the avalanche to know what to draw it over - they might have left a gap in the video for foreground objects, but that wouldn't line up in 3D.

Edit 2: Hmmmm... might be ok... thinking about how it would work the gaps could be made to line up on foreground objects - we'd still have a CM like halo around foreground objects but it might be a better compromise than leaving them in 2D...

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Posted 02/05/2016 03:23 AM   
Huh, I'm not surprised at that. The avalanche looked like a pre-rendered image when I played through the intro. I'm pretty sure there were a few instances of it where it was at screen depth, but also some correct depth ones - and they looked very similar to each other.
Huh, I'm not surprised at that. The avalanche looked like a pre-rendered image when I played through the intro. I'm pretty sure there were a few instances of it where it was at screen depth, but also some correct depth ones - and they looked very similar to each other.

Posted 02/05/2016 03:41 AM   
Heh, I just realised this is the Batman thread... we should probably move discussions of the avalanche back over to the Tomb Raider thread.
Heh, I just realised this is the Batman thread... we should probably move discussions of the avalanche back over to the Tomb Raider thread.

2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit

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Posted 02/05/2016 04:57 AM   
[quote="mike_ar69"]TnL is not tile lighting.[/quote] [quote="DarkStarSword"]TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.[/quote] Thanks for clearing that up.
mike_ar69 said:TnL is not tile lighting.


DarkStarSword said:TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Posted 02/05/2016 05:49 AM   
[quote="DarkStarSword"]TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.[/quote] OT: Not trying to be a smartass, but TnL stands for "[url=http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/t/tandl.htm]Transform and Lighting[/url]". The original GeForce256 was one of the first cards to support this technology in hardware. Anyway, I really appreciate all the work you guys do to keep 3D Vision live, many thanks :)
DarkStarSword said:TnL is "Translate and Lit" - that's what games used to use GPUs for before shaders. Completely irrelevant to anything these days.


OT: Not trying to be a smartass, but TnL stands for "Transform and Lighting". The original GeForce256 was one of the first cards to support this technology in hardware.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the work you guys do to keep 3D Vision live, many thanks :)

Posted 02/05/2016 06:18 PM   
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