3D Vision Ready monitors at 600fps slow motion - see the problem for yourself (YouTube link)
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Well, I've been promising to post this up for a while, so here it is.

This shows the Alienware and Samsung monitors running at 110Hz (I believe). Once you see the videos, you'll understand immediately why the top/bottom ghosting is 99% the fault of the monitors in play.

Without further ado ... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAQh6bREFqM"]YouTube link - 3D Vision Ready monitors at 600 fps slow motion[/url].

Feel free to point people to this video for explanatory purposes It's important that people on this forum realize what the cause of the various ghosting problems are.
Well, I've been promising to post this up for a while, so here it is.



This shows the Alienware and Samsung monitors running at 110Hz (I believe). Once you see the videos, you'll understand immediately why the top/bottom ghosting is 99% the fault of the monitors in play.



Without further ado ... " rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">YouTube link - 3D Vision Ready monitors at 600 fps slow motion.



Feel free to point people to this video for explanatory purposes It's important that people on this forum realize what the cause of the various ghosting problems are.

#1
Posted 01/26/2010 05:00 AM   
Yep, it's what we all expected. Monitors refreshing top to bottom (CRT style) throw the timing of the image/3d glasses synchronization off. Is this refreshing behaviour simply a legacy holdover from the CRT days, or is there any reason that LCD monitors need to refresh top to bottom? I certainly can't think of one.
Yep, it's what we all expected. Monitors refreshing top to bottom (CRT style) throw the timing of the image/3d glasses synchronization off. Is this refreshing behaviour simply a legacy holdover from the CRT days, or is there any reason that LCD monitors need to refresh top to bottom? I certainly can't think of one.

#2
Posted 01/26/2010 05:23 AM   
Interesting -

This must be why there's such a reduction in apparent brightness when using 3D (more than 50%).
The shutter can only stay open while the correct image is displayed in its entirety, and the monitor takes about 90% of the time transitioning between frames.

Hopefully monitors get better transition times, and NVIDIA adapts to these changes by adjusting the shutter durations.
Interesting -



This must be why there's such a reduction in apparent brightness when using 3D (more than 50%).

The shutter can only stay open while the correct image is displayed in its entirety, and the monitor takes about 90% of the time transitioning between frames.



Hopefully monitors get better transition times, and NVIDIA adapts to these changes by adjusting the shutter durations.

#3
Posted 01/26/2010 05:25 AM   
[quote name='rkuo' post='988892' date='Jan 26 2010, 05:00 AM']Well, I've been promising to post this up for a while, so here it is.[/quote]
That's an awesome vid and really illustrates exactly what is happenning. I'd love to hear from the LCD manufacturers on exactly why an LCD needs to refresh like this (is it just a legacy thing maybe?), rather than doing the whole screen in one go. Maybe Andrew could explain why it happens. It's surprising 3D works at all when 90% of the time there isn't a complete frame fully drawn.

The trouble is, since these screens aren't made just for 3D, and since 3D is currently a niche market, I doubt the LCD manufacturers will be moved to fix this problem on future screens. After seeing this vid I don't think I'll be buying a 3D Ready LCD, I'll just stick with my CRT and ghosting.

Btw I'd love to see the same vid from a CRT just to compare.
[quote name='rkuo' post='988892' date='Jan 26 2010, 05:00 AM']Well, I've been promising to post this up for a while, so here it is.

That's an awesome vid and really illustrates exactly what is happenning. I'd love to hear from the LCD manufacturers on exactly why an LCD needs to refresh like this (is it just a legacy thing maybe?), rather than doing the whole screen in one go. Maybe Andrew could explain why it happens. It's surprising 3D works at all when 90% of the time there isn't a complete frame fully drawn.



The trouble is, since these screens aren't made just for 3D, and since 3D is currently a niche market, I doubt the LCD manufacturers will be moved to fix this problem on future screens. After seeing this vid I don't think I'll be buying a 3D Ready LCD, I'll just stick with my CRT and ghosting.



Btw I'd love to see the same vid from a CRT just to compare.

#4
Posted 01/26/2010 05:49 AM   
Do the few plasma displays that are 3D ready have ghosting? I'm not very knowledgable about those, but I once remember talking to someone that says plasmas have the absolute highest refresh rate capability of any modern screen... any news about that?
Do the few plasma displays that are 3D ready have ghosting? I'm not very knowledgable about those, but I once remember talking to someone that says plasmas have the absolute highest refresh rate capability of any modern screen... any news about that?

#5
Posted 01/26/2010 05:52 AM   
Wow, cool video. Very interesting to say the least!

I wonder if there is anything we as users can do about it, but I have a
feeling the settings needing adjustment are locked out.

Is it literally a hardware limitation ? Can someone explain without
use too big of words.. what the hay is going on here ??
Wow, cool video. Very interesting to say the least!



I wonder if there is anything we as users can do about it, but I have a

feeling the settings needing adjustment are locked out.



Is it literally a hardware limitation ? Can someone explain without

use too big of words.. what the hay is going on here ??

#6
Posted 01/26/2010 05:55 AM   
So atm the only device capable of no ghosting is projectors ?
So atm the only device capable of no ghosting is projectors ?

#7
Posted 01/26/2010 06:02 AM   
I wonder if there is anything Nvidia can try and do to compensate.
I wonder if there is anything Nvidia can try and do to compensate.

#8
Posted 01/26/2010 06:16 AM   
Image too dark - shutter is in open state less 2ms. Overall 2+2 ms both eye from 16.7 ms loop.
[url="http://www.fcenter.ru/img/article/monitors/NVIDIA_3DVision/135366.png"]1 eye oscillogram[/url]
Amazing how such crazy technology able to work.
USB has a lag, LCD has lag - IMHO synchronization problem produce "ghosting".
Indeed users MUST HAVE to adjust open state time, compensate input lag. It can solve or reduce the problem.
Image too dark - shutter is in open state less 2ms. Overall 2+2 ms both eye from 16.7 ms loop.

1 eye oscillogram

Amazing how such crazy technology able to work.

USB has a lag, LCD has lag - IMHO synchronization problem produce "ghosting".

Indeed users MUST HAVE to adjust open state time, compensate input lag. It can solve or reduce the problem.

#9
Posted 01/26/2010 07:52 AM   
[quote name='fish99' post='988910' date='Jan 26 2010, 08:49 AM']After seeing this vid I don't think I'll be buying a 3D Ready LCD, I'll just stick with my CRT and ghosting.

Btw I'd love to see the same vid from a CRT just to compare.[/quote]
played on CRT 22 NEC before 3d ready viewsonic
well...
this story with 3d ready LCD is sad but.. CRT MUCH worth then any LCD 3r ready. i dont mind to return my viewsonic and back to CRT. on viewsonic 3d picture much better anyway
[quote name='fish99' post='988910' date='Jan 26 2010, 08:49 AM']After seeing this vid I don't think I'll be buying a 3D Ready LCD, I'll just stick with my CRT and ghosting.



Btw I'd love to see the same vid from a CRT just to compare.

played on CRT 22 NEC before 3d ready viewsonic

well...

this story with 3d ready LCD is sad but.. CRT MUCH worth then any LCD 3r ready. i dont mind to return my viewsonic and back to CRT. on viewsonic 3d picture much better anyway

#10
Posted 01/26/2010 10:05 AM   
Interesting file nvstusb.inf. Seems same named monitors contains different lcd matrix.
Interesting file nvstusb.inf. Seems same named monitors contains different lcd matrix.

#11
Posted 01/26/2010 10:44 AM   
If the monitors could refresh the whole screen at once they (nvidia) could also leave the shutters open for longer and the brightness issue could be reduced a lot. I really hope some LCD manufacturer will actually think about how a screen should refresh for 3D Vision and go out of their way to fix this problem, they'd sell tons of screens if they did.
If the monitors could refresh the whole screen at once they (nvidia) could also leave the shutters open for longer and the brightness issue could be reduced a lot. I really hope some LCD manufacturer will actually think about how a screen should refresh for 3D Vision and go out of their way to fix this problem, they'd sell tons of screens if they did.

#12
Posted 01/26/2010 12:28 PM   
Thanks Rkuo you have finally put the debate to rest.

The onus is now on the LCD manufacturers and in some way Nvidia to sort this out between them. I'm not happy that Nvidia are slapping on 3D Vision ready stickers on a product that is simply below par. Yes the monitor produces 3D, but it's a bitter sweet experiance. Alot of us here have paid £300+ to experiance 3D but have been let down with ghosting, darkened picture and developers not really embracing the 3D community as of yet.
Thanks Rkuo you have finally put the debate to rest.



The onus is now on the LCD manufacturers and in some way Nvidia to sort this out between them. I'm not happy that Nvidia are slapping on 3D Vision ready stickers on a product that is simply below par. Yes the monitor produces 3D, but it's a bitter sweet experiance. Alot of us here have paid £300+ to experiance 3D but have been let down with ghosting, darkened picture and developers not really embracing the 3D community as of yet.

#13
Posted 01/26/2010 12:56 PM   
[quote name='cyciumx' post='988914' date='Jan 26 2010, 06:52 AM']Do the few plasma displays that are 3D ready have ghosting? I'm not very knowledgable about those, but I once remember talking to someone that says plasmas have the absolute highest refresh rate capability of any modern screen... any news about that?[/quote]
Yes my plasma TV (Samsung PS50B450) have ghosting all over very similar to a CRT monitor. It had some stickers saying "600Hz subfield motion", "100Hz", "0.001ms" but what is does is 1360*768 @ 120Hz 3D using checkerboard pattern (so resolution is blurred/jaggies). But 50"/127cm is perfect size pc monitor for me (2 feet/60cm) away.
[quote name='cyciumx' post='988914' date='Jan 26 2010, 06:52 AM']Do the few plasma displays that are 3D ready have ghosting? I'm not very knowledgable about those, but I once remember talking to someone that says plasmas have the absolute highest refresh rate capability of any modern screen... any news about that?

Yes my plasma TV (Samsung PS50B450) have ghosting all over very similar to a CRT monitor. It had some stickers saying "600Hz subfield motion", "100Hz", "0.001ms" but what is does is 1360*768 @ 120Hz 3D using checkerboard pattern (so resolution is blurred/jaggies). But 50"/127cm is perfect size pc monitor for me (2 feet/60cm) away.

#14
Posted 01/26/2010 05:28 PM   
Plasmas do have outrageous reaction times, but what actually produces light is a phosphorous material in each pixel which does have long response times unless carefully chosen by the manufacturer specifically for stereo3D.
Plasmas do have outrageous reaction times, but what actually produces light is a phosphorous material in each pixel which does have long response times unless carefully chosen by the manufacturer specifically for stereo3D.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#15
Posted 01/26/2010 05:36 PM   
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