I think people are underestimating Nvidia. They could put together their own software in 5 seconds, its pretty obvious from their recent CPU's and GPU's (the fact that the 290X is only Titan/780 performance with a 300w TDP) that AMD is in a pretty bad situation.
I think people are underestimating Nvidia. They could put together their own software in 5 seconds, its pretty obvious from their recent CPU's and GPU's (the fact that the 290X is only Titan/780 performance with a 300w TDP) that AMD is in a pretty bad situation.
I believe that this mantle move puts Microsoft in a very bad position and that they will scramble to implement optimitizations for DirectX to counter it, less they want to completely lose their hold on Windows PC gaming which in the end does give them an income.
What I feel will be necessary for Intel/nVidia if Ricky Marty's horror prediction comes to life, is to sue the living shit out of AMD and run them into the ground for trying to undermine and monopolize the gaming market with an API that is solely there to promote AMD's absolutely horrible CPU architecture in conjunction with their GPUs that house in every nextgen console, if this isn't the definition of unfair competition then I don't know what is.
I believe that this mantle move puts Microsoft in a very bad position and that they will scramble to implement optimitizations for DirectX to counter it, less they want to completely lose their hold on Windows PC gaming which in the end does give them an income.
What I feel will be necessary for Intel/nVidia if Ricky Marty's horror prediction comes to life, is to sue the living shit out of AMD and run them into the ground for trying to undermine and monopolize the gaming market with an API that is solely there to promote AMD's absolutely horrible CPU architecture in conjunction with their GPUs that house in every nextgen console, if this isn't the definition of unfair competition then I don't know what is.
[quote="Cookybiscuit"]I think people are underestimating Nvidia. They could put together their own software in 5 seconds, its pretty obvious from their recent CPU's and GPU's (the fact that the 290X is only Titan/780 performance with a 300w TDP) that AMD is in a pretty bad situation.[/quote]I think they do already - it's called NVAPI. But why would anyone bother using it, since some 90% of the gaming market (consoles and PC combined) will now be running AMD hardware?
AMD realised long ago that they can't compel people to use their hardware based on quality, since the quality of their hardware is usually inferior. So instead of quality, they've instead focused on price, marketing, cross-promotions, and now, basically, blackmail.
Nvidia, to their credit, did the right thing and kept concentrating on creating a better product. Unfortunately, the right thing also turned out to be the naive thing.
As for Microsoft, 5 years from now they'll probably be known primarily as a console manufacturer. In 15 years, after they put all of their energy into mobile devices yet everyone still uses iOS and Android, they'll end up with a tombstone next to Kodak's. Or maybe a statue in in Easter Island, along with the other relics to human hubris and short-sightedness.
PC gaming will die, but in name only. It will be called Steam gaming, and will be different to today's situation, though I'm not exactly sure how. It won't be quite the living-room wonderland Valve hopes it to be, but it will play some kind of hybrid, flexible role, as it always has. Nvidia will probably still figure, but with way less market share than before.
No matter what happens, Nvidia is going to have a really horrible 2014. Their GTX 8xx cards are probably going to be awesome, though that may not be enough.
As for 3D (either 3Dvision or otherwise)....I don't know. What do people think?
Cookybiscuit said:I think people are underestimating Nvidia. They could put together their own software in 5 seconds, its pretty obvious from their recent CPU's and GPU's (the fact that the 290X is only Titan/780 performance with a 300w TDP) that AMD is in a pretty bad situation.
I think they do already - it's called NVAPI. But why would anyone bother using it, since some 90% of the gaming market (consoles and PC combined) will now be running AMD hardware?
AMD realised long ago that they can't compel people to use their hardware based on quality, since the quality of their hardware is usually inferior. So instead of quality, they've instead focused on price, marketing, cross-promotions, and now, basically, blackmail.
Nvidia, to their credit, did the right thing and kept concentrating on creating a better product. Unfortunately, the right thing also turned out to be the naive thing.
As for Microsoft, 5 years from now they'll probably be known primarily as a console manufacturer. In 15 years, after they put all of their energy into mobile devices yet everyone still uses iOS and Android, they'll end up with a tombstone next to Kodak's. Or maybe a statue in in Easter Island, along with the other relics to human hubris and short-sightedness.
PC gaming will die, but in name only. It will be called Steam gaming, and will be different to today's situation, though I'm not exactly sure how. It won't be quite the living-room wonderland Valve hopes it to be, but it will play some kind of hybrid, flexible role, as it always has. Nvidia will probably still figure, but with way less market share than before.
No matter what happens, Nvidia is going to have a really horrible 2014. Their GTX 8xx cards are probably going to be awesome, though that may not be enough.
As for 3D (either 3Dvision or otherwise)....I don't know. What do people think?
I think with the AMD releases being in the state they are Maxwell is going to be crap, all Nvidia has to do is match the AMD lineup (which arguably its already doing with the 700's) to make the most profit, putting out their best kit means lower profit margins.
I don't think DirectX is going anywhere good either because that means moving to Windows 8, fuck that.
I think with the AMD releases being in the state they are Maxwell is going to be crap, all Nvidia has to do is match the AMD lineup (which arguably its already doing with the 700's) to make the most profit, putting out their best kit means lower profit margins.
I don't think DirectX is going anywhere good either because that means moving to Windows 8, fuck that.
Though AMD is further painting Nvidia into a high-end niche. First by pricing their cards so cheaply and bundling lots of games with them. And now with mantle, by trying to ensure that their weaker cards will outperform their raw abilities.
If Nvidia releases mediocre but expensive cards next year that barely keep up with AMD's Mantle-powered cards, they're toast. AMD is all over the value-for-money sector now and there's little Nvidia can do about it. Their only viable response may be to bring out the biggest guns they can. (Besides, at least some of Maxwell cards will be on new 20nm architecture, so I doubt they'll be "crap".)
Or maybe, they need to start focusing on marketing their unique assets. You know, like 3Dvision. A guy can dream...
Though AMD is further painting Nvidia into a high-end niche. First by pricing their cards so cheaply and bundling lots of games with them. And now with mantle, by trying to ensure that their weaker cards will outperform their raw abilities.
If Nvidia releases mediocre but expensive cards next year that barely keep up with AMD's Mantle-powered cards, they're toast. AMD is all over the value-for-money sector now and there's little Nvidia can do about it. Their only viable response may be to bring out the biggest guns they can. (Besides, at least some of Maxwell cards will be on new 20nm architecture, so I doubt they'll be "crap".)
Or maybe, they need to start focusing on marketing their unique assets. You know, like 3Dvision. A guy can dream...
Maybe not crap, but its certain that Nvidia will put out cards comparable to AMD regardless of what they actually have. Alot of people suspect the 780 was meant to be the 680, and after seeing the 7970 it was deemed unnecessarily fast.
Maybe not crap, but its certain that Nvidia will put out cards comparable to AMD regardless of what they actually have. Alot of people suspect the 780 was meant to be the 680, and after seeing the 7970 it was deemed unnecessarily fast.
So here it is then :/
"Mantle will require a GCN architecture GPU to work; NOT AN OPEN STANDARD like OpenCL or OpenGL"
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/mantle-will-require-a-gcn-architectured-gpu-to-work-not-an-open-standard-like-opencl-or-opengl/
At least I partially have to correct my "horror prediction": it seems sudden Steam competition may have finally caused a reaction from Microsoft, according to [url]http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/microsoft_wants_windows_7_to_die_a_quick_death.html[/url]. If they really want to succeed with Windows 8.1, they may want/need to push Directx 11.2, leaving things as they basically are. I've never liked post Bill Gates Microsoft and Windows 8, but if it's to alleviate AMD's world domination...
Now to hope developers will stop taking everything John Carmack says as the Bible
At least I partially have to correct my "horror prediction": it seems sudden Steam competition may have finally caused a reaction from Microsoft, according to http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/microsoft_wants_windows_7_to_die_a_quick_death.html. If they really want to succeed with Windows 8.1, they may want/need to push Directx 11.2, leaving things as they basically are. I've never liked post Bill Gates Microsoft and Windows 8, but if it's to alleviate AMD's world domination...
Now to hope developers will stop taking everything John Carmack says as the Bible
There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. Second of all, "Mantle" is really not open at all. It can be used across different platforms (aka "open" platforms), but it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market). Third, "Mantle" doesn't make it easier to port games from console to PC because the PC is, by definition, an open platform where a variety of different hardware needs to be supported. DirectX and OpenGL are the graphics API's that actually do make it easier to port games across different platforms. Do to all of these reasons, and due to the fact that Mantle will require extra development work to achieve optimal results relative to the industry standard graphics API's, Mantle is bound to fail. AMD will need to pay developers to use it, and considering their dwindling cash balance and heavy debt load, there is only so far they can go with that.
There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. Second of all, "Mantle" is really not open at all. It can be used across different platforms (aka "open" platforms), but it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market). Third, "Mantle" doesn't make it easier to port games from console to PC because the PC is, by definition, an open platform where a variety of different hardware needs to be supported. DirectX and OpenGL are the graphics API's that actually do make it easier to port games across different platforms. Do to all of these reasons, and due to the fact that Mantle will require extra development work to achieve optimal results relative to the industry standard graphics API's, Mantle is bound to fail. AMD will need to pay developers to use it, and considering their dwindling cash balance and heavy debt load, there is only so far they can go with that.
[quote="ams23"]There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. Second of all, "Mantle" is really not open at all. It can be used across different platforms (aka "open" platforms), but it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market). Third, "Mantle" doesn't make it easier to port games from console to PC because the PC is, by definition, an open platform where a variety of different hardware needs to be supported. DirectX and OpenGL are the graphics API's that actually do make it easier to port games across different platforms. Do to all of these reasons, and due to the fact that Mantle will require extra development work to achieve optimal results relative to the industry standard graphics API's, Mantle is bound to fail. AMD will need to pay developers to use it, and considering their dwindling cash balance and heavy debt load, there is only so far they can go with that.[/quote]
Very true. If Steam Box used Mantle, then there might have been some concern.
ams23 said:There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. Second of all, "Mantle" is really not open at all. It can be used across different platforms (aka "open" platforms), but it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market). Third, "Mantle" doesn't make it easier to port games from console to PC because the PC is, by definition, an open platform where a variety of different hardware needs to be supported. DirectX and OpenGL are the graphics API's that actually do make it easier to port games across different platforms. Do to all of these reasons, and due to the fact that Mantle will require extra development work to achieve optimal results relative to the industry standard graphics API's, Mantle is bound to fail. AMD will need to pay developers to use it, and considering their dwindling cash balance and heavy debt load, there is only so far they can go with that.
Very true. If Steam Box used Mantle, then there might have been some concern.
[quote="ams23"]There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. [/quote]Any source for that? My reading strongly suggests that Mantle will in fact be the low-level API for both XBone and PS4.
ams23 said:There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. First of all, PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's.
Any source for that? My reading strongly suggests that Mantle will in fact be the low-level API for both XBone and PS4.
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[quote="ams23"]PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's. [/quote]Good point. Even PCs with AMD GPUs will never be as locked down as the consoles, so an API probably can't be as low-level. And even AMD must know that most gaming PCs will be using Intel CPUs for the foreseeable future.
[quote]....it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market).[/quote]
Hang on....aren't the new consoles going to be GCN? If so, then that will comprise a huge majority of the market: Both consoles and a large (and possibly growing) section of PC.
This would be unprecedented in the current generation, where you have 3 main platforms (360, ps3, PC), each with their own unique hardware types.
Just as the current generation was often defined by "bad PC ports", aren't we now in danger of seeing a new generation of "bad directX ports"? If both consoles and many PCs use GCN-specific APIs, won't the temptation be to build first for those, and port to directX as an afterthought?
ams23 said:PS4 and XBox1 will use their own very low level API's. "Mantle" is something different, and will likely have an extra abstraction layer due to the need to support all current and future GCN-equipped GPU's in addition to a variety of different CPU's.
Good point. Even PCs with AMD GPUs will never be as locked down as the consoles, so an API probably can't be as low-level. And even AMD must know that most gaming PCs will be using Intel CPUs for the foreseeable future.
....it is really only useable for GCN-equipped GPU's (which represents a very small percentage of the gaming market).
Hang on....aren't the new consoles going to be GCN? If so, then that will comprise a huge majority of the market: Both consoles and a large (and possibly growing) section of PC.
This would be unprecedented in the current generation, where you have 3 main platforms (360, ps3, PC), each with their own unique hardware types.
Just as the current generation was often defined by "bad PC ports", aren't we now in danger of seeing a new generation of "bad directX ports"? If both consoles and many PCs use GCN-specific APIs, won't the temptation be to build first for those, and port to directX as an afterthought?
This article seems quite well-written: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Exposes-Mantle
In particular, this quote:
[quote] AMD claims that they can do 9x the draw calls with Mantle...........Before everyone gets too excited, we will not see a 9x improvement in overall performance with every application. A single HD 7790 running in Mantle is not going to power 3 x 1080P monitors in Eyefinity faster than a HD 7970 or GTX 780 (in Surround) running in DirectX. Mantle shifts the bottleneck elsewhere.
What kind of improvements can we expect? Performance will increase when things are not shader bound. We probably could see an improvement in geometry handling (higher polygon scenes). Other than that though, do not expect miracles. In applications that require multiple shading passes, complex lighting, tessellation and deformation, we might see improvements in the single digit percentages, perhaps as high as the low teens.[/quote]
This seems to confirm those like ams23 and eqzitara who are saying that Mantle will be more or less inconsequential
AMD claims that they can do 9x the draw calls with Mantle...........Before everyone gets too excited, we will not see a 9x improvement in overall performance with every application. A single HD 7790 running in Mantle is not going to power 3 x 1080P monitors in Eyefinity faster than a HD 7970 or GTX 780 (in Surround) running in DirectX. Mantle shifts the bottleneck elsewhere.
What kind of improvements can we expect? Performance will increase when things are not shader bound. We probably could see an improvement in geometry handling (higher polygon scenes). Other than that though, do not expect miracles. In applications that require multiple shading passes, complex lighting, tessellation and deformation, we might see improvements in the single digit percentages, perhaps as high as the low teens.
This seems to confirm those like ams23 and eqzitara who are saying that Mantle will be more or less inconsequential
Interesting. Reportedly though, that demo was in fact running in Eyefinity (3 screens with a single card): [url]http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=169399[/url]
It's all just speculation for all of us at the moment though. The rubber meets the road with BattleField 4, where it'll have Mantle support on PC. They also will have an DirectX path for NVidia users. It will be very interesting to see the comparison. And that will make it more clear where it all stands.
It's all just speculation for all of us at the moment though. The rubber meets the road with BattleField 4, where it'll have Mantle support on PC. They also will have an DirectX path for NVidia users. It will be very interesting to see the comparison. And that will make it more clear where it all stands.
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Yeah, some benchmark tests for Battlefield 4 should clear everything up nicely.
By the way, has anyone heard of any other games utilising TressFX? I thought it was genuinely terrific in Tomb Raider. It took hair realism from "terrible" to "very good - almost excellent". And I loved how it was an open tech that worked on all hardware. Another reason why this mantle thing was a rude shock.
Yeah, some benchmark tests for Battlefield 4 should clear everything up nicely.
By the way, has anyone heard of any other games utilising TressFX? I thought it was genuinely terrific in Tomb Raider. It took hair realism from "terrible" to "very good - almost excellent". And I loved how it was an open tech that worked on all hardware. Another reason why this mantle thing was a rude shock.
What I feel will be necessary for Intel/nVidia if Ricky Marty's horror prediction comes to life, is to sue the living shit out of AMD and run them into the ground for trying to undermine and monopolize the gaming market with an API that is solely there to promote AMD's absolutely horrible CPU architecture in conjunction with their GPUs that house in every nextgen console, if this isn't the definition of unfair competition then I don't know what is.
url=https://www.passmark.com/baselines/V9/display.php?id=118728757451]
[/url]
AMD realised long ago that they can't compel people to use their hardware based on quality, since the quality of their hardware is usually inferior. So instead of quality, they've instead focused on price, marketing, cross-promotions, and now, basically, blackmail.
Nvidia, to their credit, did the right thing and kept concentrating on creating a better product. Unfortunately, the right thing also turned out to be the naive thing.
As for Microsoft, 5 years from now they'll probably be known primarily as a console manufacturer. In 15 years, after they put all of their energy into mobile devices yet everyone still uses iOS and Android, they'll end up with a tombstone next to Kodak's. Or maybe a statue in in Easter Island, along with the other relics to human hubris and short-sightedness.
PC gaming will die, but in name only. It will be called Steam gaming, and will be different to today's situation, though I'm not exactly sure how. It won't be quite the living-room wonderland Valve hopes it to be, but it will play some kind of hybrid, flexible role, as it always has. Nvidia will probably still figure, but with way less market share than before.
No matter what happens, Nvidia is going to have a really horrible 2014. Their GTX 8xx cards are probably going to be awesome, though that may not be enough.
As for 3D (either 3Dvision or otherwise)....I don't know. What do people think?
I don't think DirectX is going anywhere good either because that means moving to Windows 8, fuck that.
If Nvidia releases mediocre but expensive cards next year that barely keep up with AMD's Mantle-powered cards, they're toast. AMD is all over the value-for-money sector now and there's little Nvidia can do about it. Their only viable response may be to bring out the biggest guns they can. (Besides, at least some of Maxwell cards will be on new 20nm architecture, so I doubt they'll be "crap".)
Or maybe, they need to start focusing on marketing their unique assets. You know, like 3Dvision. A guy can dream...
"Mantle will require a GCN architecture GPU to work; NOT AN OPEN STANDARD like OpenCL or OpenGL"
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/mantle-will-require-a-gcn-architectured-gpu-to-work-not-an-open-standard-like-opencl-or-opengl/
Now to hope developers will stop taking everything John Carmack says as the Bible
Very true. If Steam Box used Mantle, then there might have been some concern.
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Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Hang on....aren't the new consoles going to be GCN? If so, then that will comprise a huge majority of the market: Both consoles and a large (and possibly growing) section of PC.
This would be unprecedented in the current generation, where you have 3 main platforms (360, ps3, PC), each with their own unique hardware types.
Just as the current generation was often defined by "bad PC ports", aren't we now in danger of seeing a new generation of "bad directX ports"? If both consoles and many PCs use GCN-specific APIs, won't the temptation be to build first for those, and port to directX as an afterthought?
In particular, this quote:
This seems to confirm those like ams23 and eqzitara who are saying that Mantle will be more or less inconsequential
It's all just speculation for all of us at the moment though. The rubber meets the road with BattleField 4, where it'll have Mantle support on PC. They also will have an DirectX path for NVidia users. It will be very interesting to see the comparison. And that will make it more clear where it all stands.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
By the way, has anyone heard of any other games utilising TressFX? I thought it was genuinely terrific in Tomb Raider. It took hair realism from "terrible" to "very good - almost excellent". And I loved how it was an open tech that worked on all hardware. Another reason why this mantle thing was a rude shock.