THIS is why we DID NOT want Dev support, Deus Ex will be first of many
  3 / 6    
[quote name='malmic-of-tesla' date='24 August 2011 - 06:04 AM' timestamp='1314183879' post='1283534']
I think andysonofblob's idea is great BUT, it's just not happening, so, how about nvidia approach companies with the idea of offering 3D support as a DLC.

Pay $10 for a DLC and you get perfect 3D. An initial reaction to this might be "I've been getting this for free in patch's", but are we really getting 100% perfect 3D ready games out of this system?
This way nvidia can get game companies back on side(before they have too), get some money to the companies who will have to get staff to get the 3D right and we will get proper 3D ready games. win win win

[/quote]

I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.

I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.

Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.
[quote name='malmic-of-tesla' date='24 August 2011 - 06:04 AM' timestamp='1314183879' post='1283534']

I think andysonofblob's idea is great BUT, it's just not happening, so, how about nvidia approach companies with the idea of offering 3D support as a DLC.



Pay $10 for a DLC and you get perfect 3D. An initial reaction to this might be "I've been getting this for free in patch's", but are we really getting 100% perfect 3D ready games out of this system?

This way nvidia can get game companies back on side(before they have too), get some money to the companies who will have to get staff to get the 3D right and we will get proper 3D ready games. win win win







I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.



I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.



Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.

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#31
Posted 08/25/2011 08:31 PM   
[quote name='oracletriplex' date='25 August 2011 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1314304284' post='1284244']
I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.

I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.

Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.
[/quote]
I agree but would also like to see:

When devs start to control 3D we either get fake 3D (Crysis 2 - I have seen the screenies it really is just 2 plains!), it doesnt work, convergence lock-outs. If the devs just provide lots of graphic option including shadows, crosshairs, volumetric effects we can get all games to work. GTA4 looks dreadful but after tweaking looks the nuts (apart from the water)
[quote name='oracletriplex' date='25 August 2011 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1314304284' post='1284244']

I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.



I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.



Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.



I agree but would also like to see:



When devs start to control 3D we either get fake 3D (Crysis 2 - I have seen the screenies it really is just 2 plains!), it doesnt work, convergence lock-outs. If the devs just provide lots of graphic option including shadows, crosshairs, volumetric effects we can get all games to work. GTA4 looks dreadful but after tweaking looks the nuts (apart from the water)

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#32
Posted 08/25/2011 09:28 PM   
It's a good thing that 3D technology isn't developed, owned and licensed by that certain company that licenses Blu-ray movies. They are also fond of making games that are compatible with their game systems only. If they owned 3D we would probably all be paying $10-$20 more right off the bat for 3D compatible videogames. I knew that HD DVD would have been much better for the consumers wallet.
I still say don't buy the games in question and let the game publishers have time to think about why they aren't making the profits they want.
When they see where they are lacking, these problems will take care of themselves.
It's a good thing that 3D technology isn't developed, owned and licensed by that certain company that licenses Blu-ray movies. They are also fond of making games that are compatible with their game systems only. If they owned 3D we would probably all be paying $10-$20 more right off the bat for 3D compatible videogames. I knew that HD DVD would have been much better for the consumers wallet.

I still say don't buy the games in question and let the game publishers have time to think about why they aren't making the profits they want.

When they see where they are lacking, these problems will take care of themselves.

#33
Posted 08/25/2011 10:03 PM   
[quote]You need to work with ATI to get mutual support from devs for their sake as much as ours. It will not benefit ATI 3D sales if only ATI games work on their 3D and nVidia games work on ours![/quote]
Tesselation is a new wiz-bang graphics feature, too, and that's working out nicely. Why? Because big daddy Microsoft stuck it in DirectX and told the graphics card companies to make it work with that or it ain't gonna work at all.

Or go back to the old days when graphics cards themselves were new. You would have to read the tiny print on the boxes pretty closely to see if it would actually support the graphics card you bought. Then OpenGL and DirectX came along to end that nonsense.

Now we need it again. When a game wants to find out what the 3D capabilities are for the PC it's on, it needs to make a call to DirectX to find out. Maybe it could handle 3D mouse pointers, too. Otherwise, we've got a LONG wait ahead of us.
You need to work with ATI to get mutual support from devs for their sake as much as ours. It will not benefit ATI 3D sales if only ATI games work on their 3D and nVidia games work on ours!


Tesselation is a new wiz-bang graphics feature, too, and that's working out nicely. Why? Because big daddy Microsoft stuck it in DirectX and told the graphics card companies to make it work with that or it ain't gonna work at all.



Or go back to the old days when graphics cards themselves were new. You would have to read the tiny print on the boxes pretty closely to see if it would actually support the graphics card you bought. Then OpenGL and DirectX came along to end that nonsense.



Now we need it again. When a game wants to find out what the 3D capabilities are for the PC it's on, it needs to make a call to DirectX to find out. Maybe it could handle 3D mouse pointers, too. Otherwise, we've got a LONG wait ahead of us.

#34
Posted 08/25/2011 11:44 PM   
[quote name='oracletriplex' date='25 August 2011 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1314304284' post='1284244']
I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.

I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.

Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.
[/quote]
I disagree, it should be the devs that provide the ability to disable these baked-in 2D post-process effects, not Nvidia's. If Devs don't render their game properly in 3D from front to back, then at least provide us the ability to disable the problematic features. Countless games do this, the ones that don't end up on the "problem" list.

But ya, someone should bring this to the attention of the various tech rags out there. Given how much flak Nvidia caught over the Batman Arkham Asylum anti-aliasing/PhysX issue, they should be giving this equal time especially given how much AMD has downplayed Stereo 3D in the past.
[quote name='oracletriplex' date='25 August 2011 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1314304284' post='1284244']

I am not ok with this idea whatsoever. Nvidia has gotten enough of my money already by the time I've paid for the graphics card and bought the 3D Vision package and the game.



I've got a better idea. Why doesn't Nvidia implement an override in the control panel for the graphics features that are the most problematic, like shadows, dynamic lighting, and in game crosshairs. We have overrides for different types of anti aliasing, and vsync, and texture clamp crap that nobody even knows what half of this crap does. Yet it lives in the control panel.



Nvidia has full control at the hardware level, so how about letting us have access to some of those overrides.



I disagree, it should be the devs that provide the ability to disable these baked-in 2D post-process effects, not Nvidia's. If Devs don't render their game properly in 3D from front to back, then at least provide us the ability to disable the problematic features. Countless games do this, the ones that don't end up on the "problem" list.



But ya, someone should bring this to the attention of the various tech rags out there. Given how much flak Nvidia caught over the Batman Arkham Asylum anti-aliasing/PhysX issue, they should be giving this equal time especially given how much AMD has downplayed Stereo 3D in the past.

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#35
Posted 08/26/2011 01:24 AM   
[quote name='thales100' date='24 August 2011 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1314189198' post='1283580']
The Witcher 2 supports Nvidia Surround, but wont run in Eyefinity across 3 screens, its all about business.
[/quote]

Nvidia offered help, the only reason it doesn't work easily with AMD is they didn't help the devlopers to make it work. However nothing was done to make it not work. That does not appear to be the case with deus ex HR.
[quote name='thales100' date='24 August 2011 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1314189198' post='1283580']

The Witcher 2 supports Nvidia Surround, but wont run in Eyefinity across 3 screens, its all about business.





Nvidia offered help, the only reason it doesn't work easily with AMD is they didn't help the devlopers to make it work. However nothing was done to make it not work. That does not appear to be the case with deus ex HR.
#36
Posted 08/26/2011 01:57 AM   
Yet another AAA game we might loose out on because of dev interest.

[i]Finally, let’s talk about AMD’s HD3D capability. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the first game with native HD3D support (although HD3D support was just added to DiRT3 in a patch; [b][u]the next HD3D-capable game is slated to be the upcoming Battlefield 3)[/u][/b]. Unfortunately, like Crysis 2, the in-game solution only works with graphics hardware from one manufacturer: in the case of Deus Ex, that’s AMD’s Radeon HD 5000 or 6000-series cards. Of course, you'll also need a 3D monitor or television that supports AMD's HD3D standard. Indeed, Nvidia’s 3D Vision technology does not support this game without bright and obnoxious lighting artifacts. So, if you want to play Deus Ex: Human Revolution in 3D, you’re going to need a Radeon. Nvidia might be able to come up with a 3D Vision profile that works with the game, but it hasn't happened yet.[/i]

Am I right in thinking this HD3D produces the fake 3D we saw in Crysis 2? If so I think people will remain convinced 3D is a gimmic, devs will loose interest and we can campaign for better in-game graphical swithes that will benefit everyone. Here's to hoping.

edit
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/deus-ex-human-revolution-performance-benchmark,3012-8.html
Yet another AAA game we might loose out on because of dev interest.



Finally, let’s talk about AMD’s HD3D capability. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the first game with native HD3D support (although HD3D support was just added to DiRT3 in a patch; the next HD3D-capable game is slated to be the upcoming Battlefield 3). Unfortunately, like Crysis 2, the in-game solution only works with graphics hardware from one manufacturer: in the case of Deus Ex, that’s AMD’s Radeon HD 5000 or 6000-series cards. Of course, you'll also need a 3D monitor or television that supports AMD's HD3D standard. Indeed, Nvidia’s 3D Vision technology does not support this game without bright and obnoxious lighting artifacts. So, if you want to play Deus Ex: Human Revolution in 3D, you’re going to need a Radeon. Nvidia might be able to come up with a 3D Vision profile that works with the game, but it hasn't happened yet.



Am I right in thinking this HD3D produces the fake 3D we saw in Crysis 2? If so I think people will remain convinced 3D is a gimmic, devs will loose interest and we can campaign for better in-game graphical swithes that will benefit everyone. Here's to hoping.



edit

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/deus-ex-human-revolution-performance-benchmark,3012-8.html

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#37
Posted 08/26/2011 06:32 AM   
[quote]If so I think people will remain convinced 3D is a gimmic, devs will loose interest and we can campaign for better in-game graphical swithes that will benefit everyone. Here's to hoping.[/quote]
I don't know yet,
this seems like the usual lazy stuff, when they leave the DOF and blur in place. HD3D is a good excuse. Maybe *they* pay AMD for the excuse you know, not the opposite (EA?? Square Enix??? -anything!) , with AMD happy to take the flak, as long as its *publicity* is good publicity, so these might be reverse psychology trixx, we can't rule this out /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />
&
I think display manufacturers should be hit with the same class lawsuit stuff as memory manufacturers were after they fixed price and stuff.

Wouldn't hurt, these are no real 3D displays, its even half baked for 2D, & next up , half baked glassesfree...
If so I think people will remain convinced 3D is a gimmic, devs will loose interest and we can campaign for better in-game graphical swithes that will benefit everyone. Here's to hoping.


I don't know yet,

this seems like the usual lazy stuff, when they leave the DOF and blur in place. HD3D is a good excuse. Maybe *they* pay AMD for the excuse you know, not the opposite (EA?? Square Enix??? -anything!) , with AMD happy to take the flak, as long as its *publicity* is good publicity, so these might be reverse psychology trixx, we can't rule this out /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />

&

I think display manufacturers should be hit with the same class lawsuit stuff as memory manufacturers were after they fixed price and stuff.



Wouldn't hurt, these are no real 3D displays, its even half baked for 2D, & next up , half baked glassesfree...

#38
Posted 08/26/2011 07:36 AM   
Mate

Agreed with cheap blur and DoF - we dont need it. But have you seen The Witcher 2's DoF? It's actually really pretty. It has a fantasy feel to it. I did turn off blur though.

Oh,
Borderlands is 75% off on Steam atm. Is it still good in 3D?
Mate



Agreed with cheap blur and DoF - we dont need it. But have you seen The Witcher 2's DoF? It's actually really pretty. It has a fantasy feel to it. I did turn off blur though.



Oh,

Borderlands is 75% off on Steam atm. Is it still good in 3D?

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#39
Posted 08/26/2011 08:14 AM   
Not tried TW2 yet,
but yea, DOF definitely has a feel, it feels like "pseudo3d" ...

By definition , lot of the stuff they do is made for 2D . & When you change stuff, these artsy guys who get paid, are mad.

Borderlands is very cool, you need an "advanced config utility" . Also with BL, 3D ends up looking lot less shiny without their post process stuff in place.
Not tried TW2 yet,

but yea, DOF definitely has a feel, it feels like "pseudo3d" ...



By definition , lot of the stuff they do is made for 2D . & When you change stuff, these artsy guys who get paid, are mad.



Borderlands is very cool, you need an "advanced config utility" . Also with BL, 3D ends up looking lot less shiny without their post process stuff in place.

#40
Posted 08/26/2011 08:32 AM   
Downloading and thanks for the heads up re the adv config. If you do buy TW2, it also has one of those user made cfg utils. Also try the DoF, its the only game I have where I have allowed it. :)
Downloading and thanks for the heads up re the adv config. If you do buy TW2, it also has one of those user made cfg utils. Also try the DoF, its the only game I have where I have allowed it. :)

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#41
Posted 08/26/2011 08:48 AM   
Quote from Nixxes of Eidos

[i]If you want the 3DVision to work with no developer support you should probably talk to Nvidia? Not the developer?

[b]Truth of the matter is that the developer typically is involved, the driver can only do so much to make it work automatically. And Nvidia will have to work together with the developer to get 3D working properly.[/b]

If you want a developer to add support for 3DVision that is an understandable request, and it is being heard here. But you can't really fault the developer for Nvidia not making it work automatically.

Anyway, as for what HD3D can do. That does not restrict you to 720p. AMD has a list of supported 120hz monitors. HDMI output can have some further restrictions, but those are all coming from HDMI standard and the TV you will be running on, and this will be no different as with 3DVision.

The list of supported monitors for 3DVision and HD3D is different though, which is really unfortunate if you ask me. Would be nice if there was a 3D standard for monitors that they both just used, but there is not. [/i]

Look at the bit in bold. Dude! No they dont! Some of the finest games have had ZERO dev input and are without profiles. Does my head in. Oh to go back to the days last year when all devs were anti 3D and games worked or could be tweaked to work - sigh...
Quote from Nixxes of Eidos



If you want the 3DVision to work with no developer support you should probably talk to Nvidia? Not the developer?



Truth of the matter is that the developer typically is involved, the driver can only do so much to make it work automatically. And Nvidia will have to work together with the developer to get 3D working properly.



If you want a developer to add support for 3DVision that is an understandable request, and it is being heard here. But you can't really fault the developer for Nvidia not making it work automatically.



Anyway, as for what HD3D can do. That does not restrict you to 720p. AMD has a list of supported 120hz monitors. HDMI output can have some further restrictions, but those are all coming from HDMI standard and the TV you will be running on, and this will be no different as with 3DVision.



The list of supported monitors for 3DVision and HD3D is different though, which is really unfortunate if you ask me. Would be nice if there was a 3D standard for monitors that they both just used, but there is not.




Look at the bit in bold. Dude! No they dont! Some of the finest games have had ZERO dev input and are without profiles. Does my head in. Oh to go back to the days last year when all devs were anti 3D and games worked or could be tweaked to work - sigh...

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#42
Posted 08/27/2011 09:04 PM   
[quote name='andysonofbob' date='27 August 2011 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1314479089' post='1285070']
Quote from Nixxes of Eidos
[b]Truth of the matter is that the developer typically is involved, the driver can only do so much to make it work automatically. And Nvidia will have to work together with the developer to get 3D working properly.[/b]


Look at the bit in bold. Dude! No they dont! Some of the finest games have had ZERO dev input and are without profiles. Does my head in. Oh to go back to the days last year when all devs were anti 3D and games worked or could be tweaked to work - sigh...
[/quote]

You and I have a different definition of a game being "fine without profiles".
Having to switch off shadows in 3/4 of the games, switch off HUDs, hack games, add dedicated mods, are hardly things I consider "fine".
I hope you enjoy playing Crysis 1 with about every significant eye candy off, the huge screen-depth HUD objects in Unreal Tournament 3... and so on.

Dev support is good, they just need to learn how to do it right. It takes some time but once they do it right you get great stuff like Avatar the game, Metro 2033, Trine, Batman,... there are many excellent examples.
[quote name='andysonofbob' date='27 August 2011 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1314479089' post='1285070']

Quote from Nixxes of Eidos

Truth of the matter is that the developer typically is involved, the driver can only do so much to make it work automatically. And Nvidia will have to work together with the developer to get 3D working properly.





Look at the bit in bold. Dude! No they dont! Some of the finest games have had ZERO dev input and are without profiles. Does my head in. Oh to go back to the days last year when all devs were anti 3D and games worked or could be tweaked to work - sigh...





You and I have a different definition of a game being "fine without profiles".

Having to switch off shadows in 3/4 of the games, switch off HUDs, hack games, add dedicated mods, are hardly things I consider "fine".

I hope you enjoy playing Crysis 1 with about every significant eye candy off, the huge screen-depth HUD objects in Unreal Tournament 3... and so on.



Dev support is good, they just need to learn how to do it right. It takes some time but once they do it right you get great stuff like Avatar the game, Metro 2033, Trine, Batman,... there are many excellent examples.

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#43
Posted 08/27/2011 10:15 PM   
Sure but at least they work and I dont mind switching off some effects. There are so many games out there that are cool in 3D without dev input though. Obviously I would rather devs were not lazy and coded 3D shadows (most do though) and other effects instead of the 2D overlays but I can live without them especially in 3D. GTA4 is the prime example of games that look great even with things turned off. Crysis is a fair point but at least you could play it with medium shaders.

I appreciate wanting everything to work, wanting the same myself, but I just see one foul up after another when devs get involved. And now look what happens when one dev prefers a 3D solution over another...

If it was a choice of games working very well but only on one provider or nearly every game working but needing a varying amount of settings turned off or lowered on many, I would choose the latter anyday.
Sure but at least they work and I dont mind switching off some effects. There are so many games out there that are cool in 3D without dev input though. Obviously I would rather devs were not lazy and coded 3D shadows (most do though) and other effects instead of the 2D overlays but I can live without them especially in 3D. GTA4 is the prime example of games that look great even with things turned off. Crysis is a fair point but at least you could play it with medium shaders.



I appreciate wanting everything to work, wanting the same myself, but I just see one foul up after another when devs get involved. And now look what happens when one dev prefers a 3D solution over another...



If it was a choice of games working very well but only on one provider or nearly every game working but needing a varying amount of settings turned off or lowered on many, I would choose the latter anyday.

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#44
Posted 08/28/2011 01:21 PM   
[quote]You and I have a different definition of a game being "fine without profiles".
Having to switch off shadows in 3/4 of the games, switch off HUDs, hack games, add dedicated mods, are hardly things I consider "fine".[/quote]

With blockbuster titles using "native 3d" as an excuse for lazy stuff, encrypting, scrambling game data, and you blackshark , still endorse this plainly wrong practice, well , you have quite a confirmation bias pal. Maybe you should get off it.

Also your standards are way off, if you think 2233rz was ever "state of art" . LOL.
You and I have a different definition of a game being "fine without profiles".

Having to switch off shadows in 3/4 of the games, switch off HUDs, hack games, add dedicated mods, are hardly things I consider "fine".




With blockbuster titles using "native 3d" as an excuse for lazy stuff, encrypting, scrambling game data, and you blackshark , still endorse this plainly wrong practice, well , you have quite a confirmation bias pal. Maybe you should get off it.



Also your standards are way off, if you think 2233rz was ever "state of art" . LOL.

#45
Posted 08/28/2011 02:25 PM   
  3 / 6    
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