Ghosting reduced significantly with Fermi
  4 / 7    
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032148' date='Apr 1 2010, 02:49 PM']Yeah but they can compensate image (chaning image on fly) to remove ghosting, it is doing so, I do not know how, but it is working and I am satisfied ...

Just find papers on methods for ghosting reduction ... log in your IEEE account and you can start with research, aaah I forgot you read only anandtech.[/quote]

I don't even know why I am doing this ... it is a problem inherent to lcd technology ... the cards can't adjust the image to compensate for rescan and pixel transformation ... any image it recreates to try and compensate is pointless cause the adjusted image still has to be drawn from the top down and deal with the time it takes for pixels to change. What was needed to fix top and bottom ghosting, as I have already said more than once, and others have alluded to aswell, was discovered long ago, and it is simple shutter timing. Longer each shutter is closed the longer the LCD has time to get the entire image scanned to the screen and thus the less of the wrong angled image gets leaked to teh wrong eye. I don't expect you accept this though.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032148' date='Apr 1 2010, 02:49 PM']Yeah but they can compensate image (chaning image on fly) to remove ghosting, it is doing so, I do not know how, but it is working and I am satisfied ...



Just find papers on methods for ghosting reduction ... log in your IEEE account and you can start with research, aaah I forgot you read only anandtech.



I don't even know why I am doing this ... it is a problem inherent to lcd technology ... the cards can't adjust the image to compensate for rescan and pixel transformation ... any image it recreates to try and compensate is pointless cause the adjusted image still has to be drawn from the top down and deal with the time it takes for pixels to change. What was needed to fix top and bottom ghosting, as I have already said more than once, and others have alluded to aswell, was discovered long ago, and it is simple shutter timing. Longer each shutter is closed the longer the LCD has time to get the entire image scanned to the screen and thus the less of the wrong angled image gets leaked to teh wrong eye. I don't expect you accept this though.

#46
Posted 04/01/2010 08:19 PM   
[quote name='MistaP' post='1032167' date='Apr 1 2010, 10:19 PM']I don't expect you accept this though.[/quote]

Yes I accept it, but all these issues has been resolved by Nvidia as you can see on video.
It is prestigious honor to use hardware from Nvidia, because they are able to resolve such a problems (although I think that to resolve ghosting problem was not so hard for them, just did not have resources).
[quote name='MistaP' post='1032167' date='Apr 1 2010, 10:19 PM']I don't expect you accept this though.



Yes I accept it, but all these issues has been resolved by Nvidia as you can see on video.

It is prestigious honor to use hardware from Nvidia, because they are able to resolve such a problems (although I think that to resolve ghosting problem was not so hard for them, just did not have resources).

#47
Posted 04/01/2010 08:24 PM   
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032172' date='Apr 1 2010, 03:24 PM']Yes I accept it, but all these issues has been resolved by Nvidia as you can see on video.
[b]It is prestigious honor to use hardware from Nvidia[/b], because they are able to resolve such a problems (although I think that to resolve ghosting problem was not so hard for them, just did not have resources).[/quote]

How is it you argue and claim people are imagining things and this through the whole thread and then all of a sudden on a final less than thorough explaination suddenly accept it? What's the motivation here?

If the fix in the video actually covers top and bottom screen ghosting on LCDs, great. Still, leaves a sour taste in my mouth considering the issue was presented over a year ago and only now are they adressing it. 3D Vision support's track record is subpar. However, I accept this because I understand 3D Vision isn't nVidia's cash cow, but it still doesn't make me happy.

Also, I bolded that part of your post because it made me chuckle. It is like you are thanking them for winning an award or something. I would be honored if they gave me a 480 for free. lol Otherwise, I am just a consumer and supporter.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032172' date='Apr 1 2010, 03:24 PM']Yes I accept it, but all these issues has been resolved by Nvidia as you can see on video.

It is prestigious honor to use hardware from Nvidia, because they are able to resolve such a problems (although I think that to resolve ghosting problem was not so hard for them, just did not have resources).



How is it you argue and claim people are imagining things and this through the whole thread and then all of a sudden on a final less than thorough explaination suddenly accept it? What's the motivation here?



If the fix in the video actually covers top and bottom screen ghosting on LCDs, great. Still, leaves a sour taste in my mouth considering the issue was presented over a year ago and only now are they adressing it. 3D Vision support's track record is subpar. However, I accept this because I understand 3D Vision isn't nVidia's cash cow, but it still doesn't make me happy.



Also, I bolded that part of your post because it made me chuckle. It is like you are thanking them for winning an award or something. I would be honored if they gave me a 480 for free. lol Otherwise, I am just a consumer and supporter.

#48
Posted 04/01/2010 09:05 PM   
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032145' date='Apr 1 2010, 01:45 PM']This does not mean that you can not implement algorithms which would compensate it. Considering how complex Fermi is (mimd supercomputational unit) it is piece of cake for it to compensate.
I see that some of you are really hating Nvidia, then it is quiestion why you participate in this forum ...

And even it is proven now that ghosting is reduced ...[/quote]

Yes, it does mean that you cannot implement "algorithms which would compensate it". The only thing you could do is keep the shutters closed longer, and that has zero to do with the fermi architechture whatsoever. You don't seem to get this; as amazing as the 480 may or may not be, it has nothing to do with rectifiying ghosting simply by the very nature of the problem. The 480 could be powerful enough to solve every mathematical problem ever conceived in a nanosecond, it WOULD NOT make a difference to how LCDs refresh, and how long their pixels take to change color. Do you understand this?

I don't hate nVidia at all. In fact, every single card I've ever owned has been nVidia (save for one 6 years ago), and I just paid a slightly ridiculous amount of money so I could employ another one of their products, which I do enjoy and support. 3D Vision is great, although the support could be a bit better. Doesn't mean I hate nVidia. If I did, I certainly wouldn't own 3D Vision and would'nt be here trying to help other users and give feedback in hopes of helping to advance the product & tech - would I?
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1032145' date='Apr 1 2010, 01:45 PM']This does not mean that you can not implement algorithms which would compensate it. Considering how complex Fermi is (mimd supercomputational unit) it is piece of cake for it to compensate.

I see that some of you are really hating Nvidia, then it is quiestion why you participate in this forum ...



And even it is proven now that ghosting is reduced ...



Yes, it does mean that you cannot implement "algorithms which would compensate it". The only thing you could do is keep the shutters closed longer, and that has zero to do with the fermi architechture whatsoever. You don't seem to get this; as amazing as the 480 may or may not be, it has nothing to do with rectifiying ghosting simply by the very nature of the problem. The 480 could be powerful enough to solve every mathematical problem ever conceived in a nanosecond, it WOULD NOT make a difference to how LCDs refresh, and how long their pixels take to change color. Do you understand this?



I don't hate nVidia at all. In fact, every single card I've ever owned has been nVidia (save for one 6 years ago), and I just paid a slightly ridiculous amount of money so I could employ another one of their products, which I do enjoy and support. 3D Vision is great, although the support could be a bit better. Doesn't mean I hate nVidia. If I did, I certainly wouldn't own 3D Vision and would'nt be here trying to help other users and give feedback in hopes of helping to advance the product & tech - would I?

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#49
Posted 04/01/2010 09:28 PM   
Actually, you can do ghost-busting by modifying the picture to slighly reduce contrast in areas that would cause ghosting. Modifying the timings for shutter opening/closing also helps.
The problem here is that all this is done by software, which should not require Fermi : all this can technically already be done on pretty much any graphics card.

The big question is : why isn't this fix already available for all other graphics cards ? because it should be !
Actually, you can do ghost-busting by modifying the picture to slighly reduce contrast in areas that would cause ghosting. Modifying the timings for shutter opening/closing also helps.

The problem here is that all this is done by software, which should not require Fermi : all this can technically already be done on pretty much any graphics card.



The big question is : why isn't this fix already available for all other graphics cards ? because it should be !

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#50
Posted 04/01/2010 09:40 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='1032214' date='Apr 1 2010, 04:40 PM']Actually, you can do ghost-busting by modifying the picture to slighly reduce contrast in areas that would cause ghosting. Modifying the timings for shutter opening/closing also helps.
The problem here is that all this is done by software, which should not require Fermi : all this can technically already be done on pretty much any graphics card.

The big question is : why isn't this fix already available for all other graphics cards ? because it should be ![/quote]

You are absolutely right. To be expand on your statements, timings helps top and bottom screen ghosting, contrast adjustments helps mid screen ghosting cause by, go figure, sharply contrasting colors.

I also share your sentiments as to why this wasn't already fixed. Both of these issues have been present for over a year.
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='1032214' date='Apr 1 2010, 04:40 PM']Actually, you can do ghost-busting by modifying the picture to slighly reduce contrast in areas that would cause ghosting. Modifying the timings for shutter opening/closing also helps.

The problem here is that all this is done by software, which should not require Fermi : all this can technically already be done on pretty much any graphics card.



The big question is : why isn't this fix already available for all other graphics cards ? because it should be !



You are absolutely right. To be expand on your statements, timings helps top and bottom screen ghosting, contrast adjustments helps mid screen ghosting cause by, go figure, sharply contrasting colors.



I also share your sentiments as to why this wasn't already fixed. Both of these issues have been present for over a year.

#51
Posted 04/01/2010 10:12 PM   
Nice seein a few familiar faces in this thread, TrekCZ, do you have a link to that DDD test image in the youtube video? Piqued my interest and would like to check it out myself.

As for whether Fermi fixes the ghosting or not, I'd say wait and see a few weeks before ripping each other's throats out. It very well could be a driver update to fix some of the timings involved, but one thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact Fermi no longer uses the NVIO chip compared to previous Nvidia cards (G92 didn't either, not sure if it impacted ghosting or not). As already detailed by TrekCZ, the entire path from application to hardware is pretty complicated and these things are firing off with a small margin of error of only 16.67ms so any latency in that chain could certainly lead to problems. Cutting out the I/O of that chip could certainly help in terms of synchronization to signaling to the LCD itself. I'd certainly welcome anything that helps cut down on the white flashes, which I believe are just the shutters incorrectly flashing open.

Also, about the different types of ghosting, it looks to me like the bottom ghosting is a shader/color miscalculation or something, the colors are just a bit off, almost like shader artifacting if you OC too much. Playing with convergence can mask the discoloration, but at the expense of messing up depth and image focus. I could see these being fixed with either a driver fix or even on the hardware level with greater color precision, if Fermi fixes that I'd be happy since that's the only ghosting that really bothers me. The mid-screen triple imaging with light on dark contrasting I don't think is really fixable as its just a result of the shutters not being able to block/blend the two contrasted colors sufficiently. And the top ghosting people mention resulting from differences in LCD refresh dont' really bug me either.
Nice seein a few familiar faces in this thread, TrekCZ, do you have a link to that DDD test image in the youtube video? Piqued my interest and would like to check it out myself.



As for whether Fermi fixes the ghosting or not, I'd say wait and see a few weeks before ripping each other's throats out. It very well could be a driver update to fix some of the timings involved, but one thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact Fermi no longer uses the NVIO chip compared to previous Nvidia cards (G92 didn't either, not sure if it impacted ghosting or not). As already detailed by TrekCZ, the entire path from application to hardware is pretty complicated and these things are firing off with a small margin of error of only 16.67ms so any latency in that chain could certainly lead to problems. Cutting out the I/O of that chip could certainly help in terms of synchronization to signaling to the LCD itself. I'd certainly welcome anything that helps cut down on the white flashes, which I believe are just the shutters incorrectly flashing open.



Also, about the different types of ghosting, it looks to me like the bottom ghosting is a shader/color miscalculation or something, the colors are just a bit off, almost like shader artifacting if you OC too much. Playing with convergence can mask the discoloration, but at the expense of messing up depth and image focus. I could see these being fixed with either a driver fix or even on the hardware level with greater color precision, if Fermi fixes that I'd be happy since that's the only ghosting that really bothers me. The mid-screen triple imaging with light on dark contrasting I don't think is really fixable as its just a result of the shutters not being able to block/blend the two contrasted colors sufficiently. And the top ghosting people mention resulting from differences in LCD refresh dont' really bug me either.

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#52
Posted 04/01/2010 11:32 PM   
Is that is true I doubt about Nvidia intentions and I only can think that it is a driver limitation for non Fermi videocards, doing that to force to buy new fermis. I can´t think another better thing looking how Nvidia usually move pieces in the past, and I have too a lot of doubdts about a lot of comments in this forum.... seem to be a lot of Nvidia employers writting good news constantly and changing colors of things.

My conclusion is that if it is true is not because the hardware, and surelly by the software, and surelly can be done with non fermis videocards. It is as easy as to introduce a new driver with "one advantage" to have more fps with games with an specific new videocard, and also introduce a "disvantage" for older cards, to make a bigger difference and a reason to buy. It is like Nview support for only quadro... the same philosophy. Nvidia solutions always consist in buying the new hardware. If you buy a fermi card you will reach the moon, of course.
Is that is true I doubt about Nvidia intentions and I only can think that it is a driver limitation for non Fermi videocards, doing that to force to buy new fermis. I can´t think another better thing looking how Nvidia usually move pieces in the past, and I have too a lot of doubdts about a lot of comments in this forum.... seem to be a lot of Nvidia employers writting good news constantly and changing colors of things.



My conclusion is that if it is true is not because the hardware, and surelly by the software, and surelly can be done with non fermis videocards. It is as easy as to introduce a new driver with "one advantage" to have more fps with games with an specific new videocard, and also introduce a "disvantage" for older cards, to make a bigger difference and a reason to buy. It is like Nview support for only quadro... the same philosophy. Nvidia solutions always consist in buying the new hardware. If you buy a fermi card you will reach the moon, of course.

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#53
Posted 04/01/2010 11:58 PM   
The slow mo video is on my account. www.youtube.com/rkuo. If you search back through my posts from the beginning, you will see just how much time I spent trying to track down the problem with the stereo extinction issues on 3D Vision. And I've spent a lot of time educating people here on the issues.

It is possible for drivers to adjust contrast such that these issues are not as bad, but that can be done on any video card. Also, in theory you would favor bottom ghosting over top ghosting as the bulk of the change in the pixel is at the start of the refresh cycle. Aka you wouldn't want to fully center the shutter opening on the direct center of the screen.

Tons of little tweaks ... but the primary fix has to be made at the monitor level.

And yes, this Trek guy is just trolling.
The slow mo video is on my account. www.youtube.com/rkuo. If you search back through my posts from the beginning, you will see just how much time I spent trying to track down the problem with the stereo extinction issues on 3D Vision. And I've spent a lot of time educating people here on the issues.



It is possible for drivers to adjust contrast such that these issues are not as bad, but that can be done on any video card. Also, in theory you would favor bottom ghosting over top ghosting as the bulk of the change in the pixel is at the start of the refresh cycle. Aka you wouldn't want to fully center the shutter opening on the direct center of the screen.



Tons of little tweaks ... but the primary fix has to be made at the monitor level.



And yes, this Trek guy is just trolling.

#54
Posted 04/02/2010 12:23 AM   
[quote name='VadersApp2' post='1031940' date='Apr 1 2010, 07:55 AM']I think if there is reduced ghosting it´s not the fermi architecture, it´s the new driver architecture which seems to come with driver 197.17 which was used in this video and was leaked today.[/quote]

Do the 197.17 drivers have a 3d vision driver included?
[quote name='VadersApp2' post='1031940' date='Apr 1 2010, 07:55 AM']I think if there is reduced ghosting it´s not the fermi architecture, it´s the new driver architecture which seems to come with driver 197.17 which was used in this video and was leaked today.



Do the 197.17 drivers have a 3d vision driver included?

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#55
Posted 04/02/2010 01:22 AM   
So here's the shader ghosting I was referring to earlier, I remembered seeing it at the 3D Vision blog before I got my 3D set-up, but his pictures show the problem perfectly. I don't think its a vertical refresh ghosting issue because the discoloration exists even when the glasses are off. It very clearly looks like a color accuracy/shader problem where the colors aren't being properly calculated when overlapped.

[url="http://3dvision-blog.com/acer-aspire-gd245hq-120hz-3d-vision-ready-monitor-review/"]http://3dvision-blog.com/acer-aspire-gd245...monitor-review/[/url]

[img]http://3dvision-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/acer-gd245hq-6.jpg[/img]

That's just the scene from the Tomb Raider picture demo, I can replicate it in the stereo photo viewer as well.
So here's the shader ghosting I was referring to earlier, I remembered seeing it at the 3D Vision blog before I got my 3D set-up, but his pictures show the problem perfectly. I don't think its a vertical refresh ghosting issue because the discoloration exists even when the glasses are off. It very clearly looks like a color accuracy/shader problem where the colors aren't being properly calculated when overlapped.



http://3dvision-blog.com/acer-aspire-gd245...monitor-review/



Image



That's just the scene from the Tomb Raider picture demo, I can replicate it in the stereo photo viewer as well.

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#56
Posted 04/02/2010 01:57 AM   
[quote name='chiz' post='1032339' date='Apr 1 2010, 06:57 PM']So here's the shader ghosting I was referring to earlier, I remembered seeing it at the 3D Vision blog before I got my 3D set-up, but his pictures show the problem perfectly. I don't think its a vertical refresh ghosting issue because the discoloration exists even when the glasses are off. It very clearly looks like a color accuracy/shader problem where the colors aren't being properly calculated when overlapped.

*snipped images*

That's just the scene from the Tomb Raider picture demo, I can replicate it in the stereo photo viewer as well.[/quote]
This isn't a shader problem, it's a monitor problem. Look at the screenshots in a normal viewer and you will see both left and right eye images are perfectly fine. The problem is that for 3D, the monitor must aggressively create a fast switching time from left to right eye image and back again. To do this, it is using "overdrive", which is a higher voltage than normal applied to each pixel element to get the pixel to the correct color. Unfortunately, this has consequences ... it will get in the vicinity of the correct color quickly, but it may not get to the correct color in time or at all. So in edge cases, you get weird subtle coloring errors. Make sense?
[quote name='chiz' post='1032339' date='Apr 1 2010, 06:57 PM']So here's the shader ghosting I was referring to earlier, I remembered seeing it at the 3D Vision blog before I got my 3D set-up, but his pictures show the problem perfectly. I don't think its a vertical refresh ghosting issue because the discoloration exists even when the glasses are off. It very clearly looks like a color accuracy/shader problem where the colors aren't being properly calculated when overlapped.



*snipped images*



That's just the scene from the Tomb Raider picture demo, I can replicate it in the stereo photo viewer as well.

This isn't a shader problem, it's a monitor problem. Look at the screenshots in a normal viewer and you will see both left and right eye images are perfectly fine. The problem is that for 3D, the monitor must aggressively create a fast switching time from left to right eye image and back again. To do this, it is using "overdrive", which is a higher voltage than normal applied to each pixel element to get the pixel to the correct color. Unfortunately, this has consequences ... it will get in the vicinity of the correct color quickly, but it may not get to the correct color in time or at all. So in edge cases, you get weird subtle coloring errors. Make sense?

#57
Posted 04/02/2010 03:15 AM   
Yeah if it's a driver issue then why is there 0 ghosting with DLP ?

It's definitely just monitor based.. but no doubt tweaks can be
applied through software to make it look better.
Yeah if it's a driver issue then why is there 0 ghosting with DLP ?



It's definitely just monitor based.. but no doubt tweaks can be

applied through software to make it look better.

#58
Posted 04/02/2010 03:42 AM   
[quote name='dreamingawake' post='1032369' date='Apr 1 2010, 08:42 PM']Yeah if it's a driver issue then why is there 0 ghosting with DLP ?

It's definitely just monitor based.. but no doubt tweaks can be
applied through software to make it look better.[/quote]
If you can model the overdrive characteristics of the monitor, then maybe. I doubt it's that simple. If the monitor manufacturer could characterize it that consistently, they would probably compensate out the errors to begin with.
[quote name='dreamingawake' post='1032369' date='Apr 1 2010, 08:42 PM']Yeah if it's a driver issue then why is there 0 ghosting with DLP ?



It's definitely just monitor based.. but no doubt tweaks can be

applied through software to make it look better.

If you can model the overdrive characteristics of the monitor, then maybe. I doubt it's that simple. If the monitor manufacturer could characterize it that consistently, they would probably compensate out the errors to begin with.

#59
Posted 04/02/2010 04:53 AM   
[quote name='rkuo' post='1032364' date='Apr 1 2010, 11:15 PM']This isn't a shader problem, it's a monitor problem. Look at the screenshots in a normal viewer and you will see both left and right eye images are perfectly fine. The problem is that for 3D, the monitor must aggressively create a fast switching time from left to right eye image and back again. To do this, it is using "overdrive", which is a higher voltage than normal applied to each pixel element to get the pixel to the correct color. Unfortunately, this has consequences ... it will get in the vicinity of the correct color quickly, but it may not get to the correct color in time or at all. So in edge cases, you get weird subtle coloring errors. Make sense?[/quote]
Hmmm ya that does make more sense, so it is a color accuracy issue, just on the monitor side. Either an overdrive issue as you stated or even possibly a TN dithering issue as the monitor thinks its producing the correct color but its not. I guess another way to describe it is like in-place inverse ghosting, where older monitors had inverse ghosting due to overdrive and fast motion transitions between certain colors. This 3D ghosting is similar but no motion is required, its done in-place because the transition is occurring between frames for each pixel as its trying to switch between two colors 120x per second but every other color isn't being reproduced correctly due to overdrive. One eye renders correctly, the other doesn't. I guess the best fix would be to avoid those color transitions/combinations if possible on the software level, idk how feasible that is of course given the problem seems to be different on every panel.

Also, I tried adjusting Overdrive, but while in 3D mode its locked in, to On I assume, same as Brightness and Contrast. I have the AW2310.
[quote name='rkuo' post='1032364' date='Apr 1 2010, 11:15 PM']This isn't a shader problem, it's a monitor problem. Look at the screenshots in a normal viewer and you will see both left and right eye images are perfectly fine. The problem is that for 3D, the monitor must aggressively create a fast switching time from left to right eye image and back again. To do this, it is using "overdrive", which is a higher voltage than normal applied to each pixel element to get the pixel to the correct color. Unfortunately, this has consequences ... it will get in the vicinity of the correct color quickly, but it may not get to the correct color in time or at all. So in edge cases, you get weird subtle coloring errors. Make sense?

Hmmm ya that does make more sense, so it is a color accuracy issue, just on the monitor side. Either an overdrive issue as you stated or even possibly a TN dithering issue as the monitor thinks its producing the correct color but its not. I guess another way to describe it is like in-place inverse ghosting, where older monitors had inverse ghosting due to overdrive and fast motion transitions between certain colors. This 3D ghosting is similar but no motion is required, its done in-place because the transition is occurring between frames for each pixel as its trying to switch between two colors 120x per second but every other color isn't being reproduced correctly due to overdrive. One eye renders correctly, the other doesn't. I guess the best fix would be to avoid those color transitions/combinations if possible on the software level, idk how feasible that is of course given the problem seems to be different on every panel.



Also, I tried adjusting Overdrive, but while in 3D mode its locked in, to On I assume, same as Brightness and Contrast. I have the AW2310.

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#60
Posted 04/02/2010 05:05 AM   
  4 / 7    
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