Info/Guide: How to adjust 100% Depth to equal your IPD
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Since I got a new 3D monitor, I wanted to see if there was some sort of common denominator for Depth/Separation between it and my 65" DLP. I grabbed some 4x4 Quad Ruled graph paper and scissors and started measuring things, my IPD, Depth on the screen(s), Registry settings... and after a little hiccup with nvsttest, I was able to find that if both were set to their respective sizes, 24 and 65, that they seemed to have roughly the same separation of 2.40625" when set to 100% Depth...
So armed with a separation of 2.40625" and an IPD of 2.75" I set out to figure out how to make one equal the other, it was fairly easy once I started messing around with it. The only thing we can change is the Value of the MonitorSize, so if we take the Separation and divide by our IPD we get a value, this value is basically the percentage that the separation is off. If we multiply this value by our diagonal screen size, we get the corrected MonitorSizeOverride Value we need to make 100% Depth equal our IPD...
So basically it works like this...
(Separation/IPD)MonitorSize
Or in my case it was...
(2.40625/2.75)24 = 21
...and setting MonitorSizeOverride to 21 gave me 2.75" of Separation in-game.
This technically works both ways, you can increase or lower the separation so 100% Depth is always equivalent to your IPD. I'm not 100% certain the separation of 2.40625" is universal across the board but it seemed pretty damn close between the 2 displays, 24" and 65", I tested this on but you can measure that on your own as long as you're using 100% Depth and a correct MonitorSize for the display.
tl;dr [color="orange"]Guide:[/color]
Measure stuff(IPD,Separation) using strips of graph paper(4x4 Quad Ruled, approx. 1" x 3-6")
[color="orange"]IPD[/color] = IPD or Distance between pupils in inches
[color="orange"]Separation[/color]* = Base separation measured at the screen at infinity in-game with 100% Depth and actual/correct MonitorSize(Override)... *you might be able to just use 2.40625(?)
[color="orange"]MonitorSize[/color] = Screen's actual diagonal size in inches
Do the math, divide [color="orange"]Separation[/color](2.40625) by [color="orange"]IPD[/color](2.75) and then multiply the quotient(0.875) by [color="orange"]MonitorSize[/color](24) to find the product(21)/[color="orange"]MonitorSizeOverride [/color]
[color="orange"](Separation/IPD)MonitorSize = MonitorSizeOverride[/color]
[color="gray"]*if it's a decimal round to the nearest ones place*[/color]
Plug the adjusted MonitorSize into the Registry by replacing the number portion of [color="orange"]Set "$MonitorSize=21"[/color] in the script below...
Save as MonitorSizeOverride.bat and Run as Admin:
[code]@Echo Off
Title MonitorSizeOverride
Set "$MonitorSize=21"
if Exist "%PROGRAMFILES(X86)%" Set "$Wow=Wow6432Node\"
Set "$Key="HKLM\SOFTWARE\%$Wow%NVIDIA Corporation\Global\Stereo3D" /v "MonitorSizeOverride""
Reg Add %$Key% /t REG_DWORD /d %$MonitorSize% /f&Pause&Goto :Eof[/code]
Enjoy! :)
Notes:As I mentioned you might not have to measure Separation, using 2.40625 *might* be fine... don't use nvsttest.exe to measure infinity/Separation, it's furthest plane isn't as far as 'infinity' is in-game, I used Grow Home(thanks again 4everAwake!:))
Since I got a new 3D monitor, I wanted to see if there was some sort of common denominator for Depth/Separation between it and my 65" DLP. I grabbed some 4x4 Quad Ruled graph paper and scissors and started measuring things, my IPD, Depth on the screen(s), Registry settings... and after a little hiccup with nvsttest, I was able to find that if both were set to their respective sizes, 24 and 65, that they seemed to have roughly the same separation of 2.40625" when set to 100% Depth...
So armed with a separation of 2.40625" and an IPD of 2.75" I set out to figure out how to make one equal the other, it was fairly easy once I started messing around with it. The only thing we can change is the Value of the MonitorSize, so if we take the Separation and divide by our IPD we get a value, this value is basically the percentage that the separation is off. If we multiply this value by our diagonal screen size, we get the corrected MonitorSizeOverride Value we need to make 100% Depth equal our IPD...
So basically it works like this...
(Separation/IPD)MonitorSize
Or in my case it was...
(2.40625/2.75)24 = 21
...and setting MonitorSizeOverride to 21 gave me 2.75" of Separation in-game.
This technically works both ways, you can increase or lower the separation so 100% Depth is always equivalent to your IPD. I'm not 100% certain the separation of 2.40625" is universal across the board but it seemed pretty damn close between the 2 displays, 24" and 65", I tested this on but you can measure that on your own as long as you're using 100% Depth and a correct MonitorSize for the display.
tl;dr Guide:
Measure stuff(IPD,Separation) using strips of graph paper(4x4 Quad Ruled, approx. 1" x 3-6")
IPD = IPD or Distance between pupils in inches
Separation* = Base separation measured at the screen at infinity in-game with 100% Depth and actual/correct MonitorSize(Override)... *you might be able to just use 2.40625(?)
MonitorSize = Screen's actual diagonal size in inches
Do the math, divide Separation(2.40625) by IPD(2.75) and then multiply the quotient(0.875) by MonitorSize(24) to find the product(21)/MonitorSizeOverride
(Separation/IPD)MonitorSize = MonitorSizeOverride
*if it's a decimal round to the nearest ones place*
Plug the adjusted MonitorSize into the Registry by replacing the number portion of Set "$MonitorSize=21" in the script below...
Save as MonitorSizeOverride.bat and Run as Admin:
@Echo Off
Title MonitorSizeOverride
Set "$MonitorSize=21"
if Exist "%PROGRAMFILES(X86)%" Set "$Wow=Wow6432Node\"
Set "$Key="HKLM\SOFTWARE\%$Wow%NVIDIA Corporation\Global\Stereo3D" /v "MonitorSizeOverride""
Reg Add %$Key% /t REG_DWORD /d %$MonitorSize% /f&Pause&Goto :Eof
Enjoy! :)
Notes:As I mentioned you might not have to measure Separation, using 2.40625 *might* be fine... don't use nvsttest.exe to measure infinity/Separation, it's furthest plane isn't as far as 'infinity' is in-game, I used Grow Home(thanks again 4everAwake!:))
Cool stuff. In my case (27" monitor) it would be 23.625, following your calculations. It needs an integer number, I guess, so it would have to be 23 or 24. Until now, I always poked the center of my (closed) eyes with two fingers and then placed them on the monitor to check the separation of something that is at 100% depth. I have been using "$MonitorSize=24" for months and it's adequate for my eyes.
But everyone's eyes are different. I don't know the distance between mine.
Cool stuff. In my case (27" monitor) it would be 23.625, following your calculations. It needs an integer number, I guess, so it would have to be 23 or 24. Until now, I always poked the center of my (closed) eyes with two fingers and then placed them on the monitor to check the separation of something that is at 100% depth. I have been using "$MonitorSize=24" for months and it's adequate for my eyes.
But everyone's eyes are different. I don't know the distance between mine.
@masterotaku To measure my IPD, I followed the recommendation of using a ruler and a mirror and closing one eye while marking each point on a ruler and looking forward. Probably not exact, but i think pretty close. Going too far over i notice causes eye strain for me, something to keep in mind, but going just a little over i think maybe makes things look bigger, helpful for certain scenery.
@masterotaku To measure my IPD, I followed the recommendation of using a ruler and a mirror and closing one eye while marking each point on a ruler and looking forward. Probably not exact, but i think pretty close. Going too far over i notice causes eye strain for me, something to keep in mind, but going just a little over i think maybe makes things look bigger, helpful for certain scenery.
Well How would I measure a Curved screens diagnol measurement?? Idid a somewhat what I think is right and I get 64 for monitor override that is gonna be too much separation me thinks??
My screen is at least 80" Diagnal?? here is what I did:
1. IPD = 3"
2. Seperation = 2.40635
3. Monitor Size = About 80" maybe bigger??
I did that and the final number was this= 64.16666666666667.. this seems huge and I think the speration will be way too much ??
Well How would I measure a Curved screens diagnol measurement?? Idid a somewhat what I think is right and I get 64 for monitor override that is gonna be too much separation me thinks??
My screen is at least 80" Diagnal?? here is what I did:
1. IPD = 3"
2. Seperation = 2.40635
3. Monitor Size = About 80" maybe bigger??
I did that and the final number was this= 64.16666666666667.. this seems huge and I think the speration will be way too much ??
I appreciate your post TsaebehT.
However, I'm afraid it is not quite correct :(
A lot of us have been going well beyond our IPD for a long time, because IPD as defined by on screen separation is the wrong way to go about it - it's practically meaningless.
TsaebehT, both you and I made guides and scripts for hacking separation to go further. I'm surprised you want to limit yourself now :)
To the uninitiated, we can easily go beyond our IPD on screen, especially on projectors, as the separation on the screen which is close to the face is not the same as separation in real life when you can actually focus at infinity.
This is easily testable too. Measure your IPD and put marks on a ruler. Put the ruler across your eyes, and close one eye at a time looking at a distant object in real life over the ruler marks for each eye. In your mind, project the separation distance onto the object you are looking at, and you will realise it is many fold your IPD.
Now, to perceive that object on the screen with that depth from real life, you will have to adjust the separation on a screen (which is intrinsically close to your face) to higher than your IPD - the same separation as you gained from the experiment above.
This is also the reason that, even with the same separation set, when you move closer to the screen, the depth is low, and when you move far away from the screen, i.e. other side oft he room, the depth is very large.
tl;dr Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless - there is no real correlation between your IPD and on screen separation, without taking into account distance of eyes from screen; and more importantly, no, going beyond your IPD on screen as max separation even a large amount (within reason) will not make your eyes diverge, because it is an arbitrary and meaningless reference.
Ideally, you want your eyes to be completely parallel, focusing at infinity, at 100% separation, and setting your screen separation to your IPD will not do that. You will in fact be limiting your depth, depending on how far you are away from the screen.
This is a fundamental issue that games and nVidia get wrong so many time, and why we need the depth hack.
Oculus/Vive VR gets around this issue by simply having screens at infinity.
For example, in VR, look at that insane separation on the path:
[img]http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Ahern-Welcome-Area-with-Oculus-Rift.png[/img]
If anyone is interested, I can do a small guide on how to do it properly. A small warning though - your eyes at true infinity will be a little strained as your eye lenses will be focussing on the close screen whereas your eye balls will be completely parallel, targetted on infinity.
We will be at the real "max Separation" value, and any separation above this value will mean that your eyes will diverge away from each other, which is a huge no-no.
A lot of us have been going well beyond our IPD for a long time, because IPD as defined by on screen separation is the wrong way to go about it - it's practically meaningless.
TsaebehT, both you and I made guides and scripts for hacking separation to go further. I'm surprised you want to limit yourself now :)
To the uninitiated, we can easily go beyond our IPD on screen, especially on projectors, as the separation on the screen which is close to the face is not the same as separation in real life when you can actually focus at infinity.
This is easily testable too. Measure your IPD and put marks on a ruler. Put the ruler across your eyes, and close one eye at a time looking at a distant object in real life over the ruler marks for each eye. In your mind, project the separation distance onto the object you are looking at, and you will realise it is many fold your IPD.
Now, to perceive that object on the screen with that depth from real life, you will have to adjust the separation on a screen (which is intrinsically close to your face) to higher than your IPD - the same separation as you gained from the experiment above.
This is also the reason that, even with the same separation set, when you move closer to the screen, the depth is low, and when you move far away from the screen, i.e. other side oft he room, the depth is very large.
tl;dr Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless - there is no real correlation between your IPD and on screen separation, without taking into account distance of eyes from screen; and more importantly, no, going beyond your IPD on screen as max separation even a large amount (within reason) will not make your eyes diverge, because it is an arbitrary and meaningless reference.
Ideally, you want your eyes to be completely parallel, focusing at infinity, at 100% separation, and setting your screen separation to your IPD will not do that. You will in fact be limiting your depth, depending on how far you are away from the screen.
This is a fundamental issue that games and nVidia get wrong so many time, and why we need the depth hack.
Oculus/Vive VR gets around this issue by simply having screens at infinity.
For example, in VR, look at that insane separation on the path:
If anyone is interested, I can do a small guide on how to do it properly. A small warning though - your eyes at true infinity will be a little strained as your eye lenses will be focussing on the close screen whereas your eye balls will be completely parallel, targetted on infinity.
We will be at the real "max Separation" value, and any separation above this value will mean that your eyes will diverge away from each other, which is a huge no-no.
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Well what is the proper technique to set depth or whatever.. I am totally confused now.. Ragedemon perhaps you can explain for us with Projectors on how to set the depth??
Well what is the proper technique to set depth or whatever.. I am totally confused now.. Ragedemon perhaps you can explain for us with Projectors on how to set the depth??
When we focus on infinity in real life, our eyes are completely parallel. We can't go beyond this because it is impossible for the vast majority of people to have their eyes diverge under any circumstance (i.e. point away from each other).
[img]http://64.17.134.112/Affonso_Beato/Understanding_Comfortable_Stereography_files/eyes20converging20-20diverging.jpg[/img]
We want to focus at this infinity where our eye are completely parallel when viewing infinity on our screens.
Understanding that our eyes cannot diverge, the short and dirty method is to set the monitor size to something really low (like 4 etc, which will allow for insane separations as an experiment), and then put on your 3D glasses and load up a game. Your game will have insane separation which your eyes will not be able to converge/focus on, because they cannot diverge!
Adjust the separation down (Ctl+F3 for the uninitiated) till you can just about focus at an object at infinity in the game. Your eyes will not be diverging but instead be completely parallel. Congratulations, you have found your max separation.
For fun, you can measure this separation on the screen with a ruler, and compare it with your IPD - unsurprisingly, it will be far higher than your IPD. For further fun, as a comparison, you can then set the screen separation to your IPD as mentioned in the first post to compare the two. Which one feels like real infinity?
Here is the caveat though.
This separation will be somewhat uncomfortable, especially for monitor viewers - NOT because your eyes are diverging, but because unlike real life, your eye balls will be parallel focusing on infinity, whereas your eye lenses will be focusing on the screen next to your face.
If you want to go ahead and set this vale as 100%, you will just have to use trial and error with the MonitorSize reg value, or the Override value that TsaebehT recently discovered (Thanks TsaebehT, you are one smart cookie!).
And of course, you will have to change this value if your seating position ever changes to closer/further from the screen.
If you guys haven't tried our max depth hacks yet, you guys are in for a real treat!
Just remember, these guides and observations will get you a maximum depth your eyes can take (simulating real life), as opposed to the most comfortable; and your settings will be anywhere between these max depth vs max comfort values, depending on your personal taste, or even your mood in the game.
Unfortunately, one big problem with 3DVision technology is that the more life-like the 3D settings, the more the eye strain due to the reasons mentioned above. What is suitable for you will be you own personal taste at the end of the day - there is no "correct" value as one will always sacrifice real-life 3D for comfort and vise versa.
When we focus on infinity in real life, our eyes are completely parallel. We can't go beyond this because it is impossible for the vast majority of people to have their eyes diverge under any circumstance (i.e. point away from each other).
We want to focus at this infinity where our eye are completely parallel when viewing infinity on our screens.
Understanding that our eyes cannot diverge, the short and dirty method is to set the monitor size to something really low (like 4 etc, which will allow for insane separations as an experiment), and then put on your 3D glasses and load up a game. Your game will have insane separation which your eyes will not be able to converge/focus on, because they cannot diverge!
Adjust the separation down (Ctl+F3 for the uninitiated) till you can just about focus at an object at infinity in the game. Your eyes will not be diverging but instead be completely parallel. Congratulations, you have found your max separation.
For fun, you can measure this separation on the screen with a ruler, and compare it with your IPD - unsurprisingly, it will be far higher than your IPD. For further fun, as a comparison, you can then set the screen separation to your IPD as mentioned in the first post to compare the two. Which one feels like real infinity?
Here is the caveat though.
This separation will be somewhat uncomfortable, especially for monitor viewers - NOT because your eyes are diverging, but because unlike real life, your eye balls will be parallel focusing on infinity, whereas your eye lenses will be focusing on the screen next to your face.
If you want to go ahead and set this vale as 100%, you will just have to use trial and error with the MonitorSize reg value, or the Override value that TsaebehT recently discovered (Thanks TsaebehT, you are one smart cookie!).
And of course, you will have to change this value if your seating position ever changes to closer/further from the screen.
If you guys haven't tried our max depth hacks yet, you guys are in for a real treat!
Just remember, these guides and observations will get you a maximum depth your eyes can take (simulating real life), as opposed to the most comfortable; and your settings will be anywhere between these max depth vs max comfort values, depending on your personal taste, or even your mood in the game.
Unfortunately, one big problem with 3DVision technology is that the more life-like the 3D settings, the more the eye strain due to the reasons mentioned above. What is suitable for you will be you own personal taste at the end of the day - there is no "correct" value as one will always sacrifice real-life 3D for comfort and vise versa.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
@The_Nephilim sure throw a 'curve' at it. Lol. One I've no experience with... I want to say the curve itself is less important than maybe how many screens it's made up of... or perhaps the resolution? [s]Pretty sure this works with both 16:9 resolutions and 4:3[/s] ...scratch that I just tried it with a couple 4:3 resolutions and they're off, lower separation, but both 16:9 resolutions I tried were spot on. Interesting... so it's affected by the aspect ratio, you would think they'd account for 4:3 resolutions on a 16:9 monitor size...
I'll mess with it and see if I can come up with something for that aspect ratio, 5:2... what resolution do you use with that?
@RAGEdemon "Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless" tell that to someone that's playing at a restricted '100% Depth' that isn't even remotely close to their IPD yet... distance to screen is a whole other equation, I sit so close to my 3D DLP TV and now my 3D Monitor that if I'm over my IPD I can't focus on infinity. Sure I could force myself to get used to it but it's just not the same.
If you relax your eyes and stare off to 'infinity' and wave a book or DVD case left and right in front of your glasses, alternately blocking the views, and notice any shift between the views then you're not actually focusing on it... that's what happens when you exceed your IPD, adding distance from the screen can more or less mask it to a degree but then you also lessen the fov, which imo is never ever enough...
@The_Nephilim sure throw a 'curve' at it. Lol. One I've no experience with... I want to say the curve itself is less important than maybe how many screens it's made up of... or perhaps the resolution? Pretty sure this works with both 16:9 resolutions and 4:3 ...scratch that I just tried it with a couple 4:3 resolutions and they're off, lower separation, but both 16:9 resolutions I tried were spot on. Interesting... so it's affected by the aspect ratio, you would think they'd account for 4:3 resolutions on a 16:9 monitor size...
I'll mess with it and see if I can come up with something for that aspect ratio, 5:2... what resolution do you use with that?
@RAGEdemon "Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless" tell that to someone that's playing at a restricted '100% Depth' that isn't even remotely close to their IPD yet... distance to screen is a whole other equation, I sit so close to my 3D DLP TV and now my 3D Monitor that if I'm over my IPD I can't focus on infinity. Sure I could force myself to get used to it but it's just not the same.
If you relax your eyes and stare off to 'infinity' and wave a book or DVD case left and right in front of your glasses, alternately blocking the views, and notice any shift between the views then you're not actually focusing on it... that's what happens when you exceed your IPD, adding distance from the screen can more or less mask it to a degree but then you also lessen the fov, which imo is never ever enough...
Well I tried like RageDemon suggested I ended up at exactly my IPD 3" Hmm interesting..
with my setup I use 2 DLP PRojectors.. I run at 2048 x 768 combined resolution. the Aspect ratio is 21:9..measured diagonally it is about 8 feet maybe a bit more if measured inside the curve..
I sit 3 feet from the entire screen so at all times every spot of the screen is 3 feet away roughly..
Yes sorry for the curve thing hehe!! ;)
Well I tried like RageDemon suggested I ended up at exactly my IPD 3" Hmm interesting..
with my setup I use 2 DLP PRojectors.. I run at 2048 x 768 combined resolution. the Aspect ratio is 21:9..measured diagonally it is about 8 feet maybe a bit more if measured inside the curve..
I sit 3 feet from the entire screen so at all times every spot of the screen is 3 feet away roughly..
I don't really get it... if you're using an extremely low MonitorSize to go way past your IPD, then dialing it back by lowering the Depth and you wind up at your IPD it would basically be the same as just using MonitorSize to get the correct IPD... it may affect Convergence differently and/or add a layer of distorted perspective into the mix, I'd have to mess with it and do some comparisons...
I don't really get it... if you're using an extremely low MonitorSize to go way past your IPD, then dialing it back by lowering the Depth and you wind up at your IPD it would basically be the same as just using MonitorSize to get the correct IPD... it may affect Convergence differently and/or add a layer of distorted perspective into the mix, I'd have to mess with it and do some comparisons...
I wouldn't recommend following RAGEdemon's advice - it relies on providing feedback to your brain that can only be explained by your optic muscles not responding properly (or specifc optical distortion effects), which it can and will compensate for, but not without feeling strain.
I wouldn't recommend following RAGEdemon's advice - it relies on providing feedback to your brain that can only be explained by your optic muscles not responding properly (or specifc optical distortion effects), which it can and will compensate for, but not without feeling strain.
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@The_Nephilim, and TsaebehT
The sole point of setting low monitor size is purely to lift the arbitrary max depth limit for our experimentation. Of course, this is not required if the separation is already able to reach the point where your eyes would need to diverge to keep up.
You two guys are sitting unbelievably close to your huge displays! Amazing! Of course, this is the reason the separation is pretty much identical to your IPD! :)
Unfortunately, this is not the case for most people.
Try moving a few meters away from a projected screen / TV, or ~1m away from the monitor.
As you do this, you will note that the depth changes substantially as you move further away.
I am sitting 3m away. My IPD is 67mm. To perceive real life infinity from my screen, I have to adjust screen separation to >300mm - a factor of 4.5x my IPD.
@DarkStarSword, I'm afraid I don't understand your point. If you want 0 eye strain, one doesn't use 3D Vision. The higher the depth you use, the more the eye strain until the point of divergence is reached. There is no perfect value of screen separation because you can't replicate real life and have 0 eye strain in 3D Vision because of the reasons explained above.
What are we trying to achieve?
If it's being able to view real life infinity and every depth in between 0 and infinity on the screen, then there is no other "method". Setting IPD distance as screen distance is a null hypothesis compared to any other arbitrary value if sitting at reasonable distances from the screen as most people do.
Aside from this, setting the maximum depth that your eyes can take as 100% limit, and then adjusting the separation per game to percentages below 100% depending on your desired 3D vs comfort is how things ought to work by design.
I am quite baffled by your statement. It's like saying you wouldn't recommend an optician's advice on glasses prescription because his eye tests "[i]relies on providing feedback to your brain that can only be explained by your optic muscles not responding properly (or specifc optical distortion effects), which it can and will compensate for, but not without feeling strain.[/i]" This, of course, is quite ridiculous ;-)
The sole point of setting low monitor size is purely to lift the arbitrary max depth limit for our experimentation. Of course, this is not required if the separation is already able to reach the point where your eyes would need to diverge to keep up.
You two guys are sitting unbelievably close to your huge displays! Amazing! Of course, this is the reason the separation is pretty much identical to your IPD! :)
Unfortunately, this is not the case for most people.
Try moving a few meters away from a projected screen / TV, or ~1m away from the monitor.
As you do this, you will note that the depth changes substantially as you move further away.
I am sitting 3m away. My IPD is 67mm. To perceive real life infinity from my screen, I have to adjust screen separation to >300mm - a factor of 4.5x my IPD.
@DarkStarSword, I'm afraid I don't understand your point. If you want 0 eye strain, one doesn't use 3D Vision. The higher the depth you use, the more the eye strain until the point of divergence is reached. There is no perfect value of screen separation because you can't replicate real life and have 0 eye strain in 3D Vision because of the reasons explained above.
What are we trying to achieve?
If it's being able to view real life infinity and every depth in between 0 and infinity on the screen, then there is no other "method". Setting IPD distance as screen distance is a null hypothesis compared to any other arbitrary value if sitting at reasonable distances from the screen as most people do.
Aside from this, setting the maximum depth that your eyes can take as 100% limit, and then adjusting the separation per game to percentages below 100% depending on your desired 3D vs comfort is how things ought to work by design.
I am quite baffled by your statement. It's like saying you wouldn't recommend an optician's advice on glasses prescription because his eye tests "relies on providing feedback to your brain that can only be explained by your optic muscles not responding properly (or specifc optical distortion effects), which it can and will compensate for, but not without feeling strain." This, of course, is quite ridiculous ;-)
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I'm not talking about the muscles that control the focus - 3D Vision has always introduced a disconnect there, which everyone here has already got used to (diverging your eyes will require that disconnect to go a little further, but that is relatively minor). I'm talking about the muscles that point your eyes where your brain wants to look. These muscles are not tied to one another and could theoretically point in completely different directions - the fact that they both point in roughly the same direction is a consequence of how your brain controls them. If you set the separation to exceed your IPD then look at something at "infinity" on the screen your brain will find that the feedback it is getting in your vision is outside the normal range - it will respond by adjusting what it considers to be the normal range - that is, it will tell your eye muscles to diverge your eyes, but believe that they are still parallel based on the feedback it is getting. This happens because it believes that the only explanation for the feedback it got was that your eye muscles didn't respond properly when it tried to point your eyes parallel, so is compensating for that.
I'm not talking about the muscles that control the focus - 3D Vision has always introduced a disconnect there, which everyone here has already got used to (diverging your eyes will require that disconnect to go a little further, but that is relatively minor). I'm talking about the muscles that point your eyes where your brain wants to look. These muscles are not tied to one another and could theoretically point in completely different directions - the fact that they both point in roughly the same direction is a consequence of how your brain controls them. If you set the separation to exceed your IPD then look at something at "infinity" on the screen your brain will find that the feedback it is getting in your vision is outside the normal range - it will respond by adjusting what it considers to be the normal range - that is, it will tell your eye muscles to diverge your eyes, but believe that they are still parallel based on the feedback it is getting. This happens because it believes that the only explanation for the feedback it got was that your eye muscles didn't respond properly when it tried to point your eyes parallel, so is compensating for that.
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[quote="RAGEdemon"]I am sitting 3m away. My IPD is 67mm. To perceive real life infinity from my screen, I have to adjust screen separation to >300mm - a factor of 4.5x my IPD.[/quote]At those distances your eyes are diverging 2.22 degrees beyond parallel:
[img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/71520/[/img]
This is the reason you feel strain, this is the reason I do not recommend this - you ARE diverging your eyes, but it doesn't feel like it because your brain doesn't believe you are - it just thinks your muscles aren't working properly and has to push them a little extra hard to get your eyes parallel.
This is also why it is easier to do on a projector since the distance of the screen means the angles your eyes diverge will be smaller and therefore easier for your brain to accept.
Now, this WILL make the image look significantly further away than the screen, which is why it looks so good on a projector when the screen is already far away, but it does so by changing your brain's notion of where your eyes should be pointing to see infinity - which could also affect your perception outside 3D Vision (or at least take a moment for your brain to work out that your muscles started working normally again and it no longer needs to compensate).
RAGEdemon said:I am sitting 3m away. My IPD is 67mm. To perceive real life infinity from my screen, I have to adjust screen separation to >300mm - a factor of 4.5x my IPD.
At those distances your eyes are diverging 2.22 degrees beyond parallel:
This is the reason you feel strain, this is the reason I do not recommend this - you ARE diverging your eyes, but it doesn't feel like it because your brain doesn't believe you are - it just thinks your muscles aren't working properly and has to push them a little extra hard to get your eyes parallel.
This is also why it is easier to do on a projector since the distance of the screen means the angles your eyes diverge will be smaller and therefore easier for your brain to accept.
Now, this WILL make the image look significantly further away than the screen, which is why it looks so good on a projector when the screen is already far away, but it does so by changing your brain's notion of where your eyes should be pointing to see infinity - which could also affect your perception outside 3D Vision (or at least take a moment for your brain to work out that your muscles started working normally again and it no longer needs to compensate).
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[quote="The_Nephilim"]with my setup I use 2 DLP PRojectors.. I run at 2048 x 768 combined resolution. the Aspect ratio is 21:9..measured diagonally it is about 8 feet maybe a bit more if measured inside the curve..[/quote]Ok so I created a custom 21:9 resolution, figured it as a 22.8" diagonal monitor and got a separation of about 2.5625" using that against your 3" IPD that gives me about a 68" adjusted MonitorSize... give that a try, see if it works... or how far I'm off the 3" mark. Lol.
The_Nephilim said:with my setup I use 2 DLP PRojectors.. I run at 2048 x 768 combined resolution. the Aspect ratio is 21:9..measured diagonally it is about 8 feet maybe a bit more if measured inside the curve..
Ok so I created a custom 21:9 resolution, figured it as a 22.8" diagonal monitor and got a separation of about 2.5625" using that against your 3" IPD that gives me about a 68" adjusted MonitorSize... give that a try, see if it works... or how far I'm off the 3" mark. Lol.
So armed with a separation of 2.40625" and an IPD of 2.75" I set out to figure out how to make one equal the other, it was fairly easy once I started messing around with it. The only thing we can change is the Value of the MonitorSize, so if we take the Separation and divide by our IPD we get a value, this value is basically the percentage that the separation is off. If we multiply this value by our diagonal screen size, we get the corrected MonitorSizeOverride Value we need to make 100% Depth equal our IPD...
So basically it works like this...
(Separation/IPD)MonitorSize
Or in my case it was...
(2.40625/2.75)24 = 21
...and setting MonitorSizeOverride to 21 gave me 2.75" of Separation in-game.
This technically works both ways, you can increase or lower the separation so 100% Depth is always equivalent to your IPD. I'm not 100% certain the separation of 2.40625" is universal across the board but it seemed pretty damn close between the 2 displays, 24" and 65", I tested this on but you can measure that on your own as long as you're using 100% Depth and a correct MonitorSize for the display.
tl;dr Guide:
Measure stuff(IPD,Separation) using strips of graph paper(4x4 Quad Ruled, approx. 1" x 3-6")
IPD = IPD or Distance between pupils in inches
Separation* = Base separation measured at the screen at infinity in-game with 100% Depth and actual/correct MonitorSize(Override)... *you might be able to just use 2.40625(?)
MonitorSize = Screen's actual diagonal size in inches
Do the math, divide Separation(2.40625) by IPD(2.75) and then multiply the quotient(0.875) by MonitorSize(24) to find the product(21)/MonitorSizeOverride
(Separation/IPD)MonitorSize = MonitorSizeOverride
*if it's a decimal round to the nearest ones place*
Plug the adjusted MonitorSize into the Registry by replacing the number portion of Set "$MonitorSize=21" in the script below...
Save as MonitorSizeOverride.bat and Run as Admin:
Enjoy! :)
Notes:As I mentioned you might not have to measure Separation, using 2.40625 *might* be fine... don't use nvsttest.exe to measure infinity/Separation, it's furthest plane isn't as far as 'infinity' is in-game, I used Grow Home(thanks again 4everAwake!:))
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
But everyone's eyes are different. I don't know the distance between mine.
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My screen is at least 80" Diagnal?? here is what I did:
1. IPD = 3"
2. Seperation = 2.40635
3. Monitor Size = About 80" maybe bigger??
I did that and the final number was this= 64.16666666666667.. this seems huge and I think the speration will be way too much ??
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However, I'm afraid it is not quite correct :(
A lot of us have been going well beyond our IPD for a long time, because IPD as defined by on screen separation is the wrong way to go about it - it's practically meaningless.
TsaebehT, both you and I made guides and scripts for hacking separation to go further. I'm surprised you want to limit yourself now :)
To the uninitiated, we can easily go beyond our IPD on screen, especially on projectors, as the separation on the screen which is close to the face is not the same as separation in real life when you can actually focus at infinity.
This is easily testable too. Measure your IPD and put marks on a ruler. Put the ruler across your eyes, and close one eye at a time looking at a distant object in real life over the ruler marks for each eye. In your mind, project the separation distance onto the object you are looking at, and you will realise it is many fold your IPD.
Now, to perceive that object on the screen with that depth from real life, you will have to adjust the separation on a screen (which is intrinsically close to your face) to higher than your IPD - the same separation as you gained from the experiment above.
This is also the reason that, even with the same separation set, when you move closer to the screen, the depth is low, and when you move far away from the screen, i.e. other side oft he room, the depth is very large.
tl;dr Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless - there is no real correlation between your IPD and on screen separation, without taking into account distance of eyes from screen; and more importantly, no, going beyond your IPD on screen as max separation even a large amount (within reason) will not make your eyes diverge, because it is an arbitrary and meaningless reference.
Ideally, you want your eyes to be completely parallel, focusing at infinity, at 100% separation, and setting your screen separation to your IPD will not do that. You will in fact be limiting your depth, depending on how far you are away from the screen.
This is a fundamental issue that games and nVidia get wrong so many time, and why we need the depth hack.
Oculus/Vive VR gets around this issue by simply having screens at infinity.
For example, in VR, look at that insane separation on the path:
If anyone is interested, I can do a small guide on how to do it properly. A small warning though - your eyes at true infinity will be a little strained as your eye lenses will be focussing on the close screen whereas your eye balls will be completely parallel, targetted on infinity.
We will be at the real "max Separation" value, and any separation above this value will mean that your eyes will diverge away from each other, which is a huge no-no.
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We want to focus at this infinity where our eye are completely parallel when viewing infinity on our screens.
Understanding that our eyes cannot diverge, the short and dirty method is to set the monitor size to something really low (like 4 etc, which will allow for insane separations as an experiment), and then put on your 3D glasses and load up a game. Your game will have insane separation which your eyes will not be able to converge/focus on, because they cannot diverge!
Adjust the separation down (Ctl+F3 for the uninitiated) till you can just about focus at an object at infinity in the game. Your eyes will not be diverging but instead be completely parallel. Congratulations, you have found your max separation.
For fun, you can measure this separation on the screen with a ruler, and compare it with your IPD - unsurprisingly, it will be far higher than your IPD. For further fun, as a comparison, you can then set the screen separation to your IPD as mentioned in the first post to compare the two. Which one feels like real infinity?
Here is the caveat though.
This separation will be somewhat uncomfortable, especially for monitor viewers - NOT because your eyes are diverging, but because unlike real life, your eye balls will be parallel focusing on infinity, whereas your eye lenses will be focusing on the screen next to your face.
If you want to go ahead and set this vale as 100%, you will just have to use trial and error with the MonitorSize reg value, or the Override value that TsaebehT recently discovered (Thanks TsaebehT, you are one smart cookie!).
And of course, you will have to change this value if your seating position ever changes to closer/further from the screen.
If you guys haven't tried our max depth hacks yet, you guys are in for a real treat!
Just remember, these guides and observations will get you a maximum depth your eyes can take (simulating real life), as opposed to the most comfortable; and your settings will be anywhere between these max depth vs max comfort values, depending on your personal taste, or even your mood in the game.
Unfortunately, one big problem with 3DVision technology is that the more life-like the 3D settings, the more the eye strain due to the reasons mentioned above. What is suitable for you will be you own personal taste at the end of the day - there is no "correct" value as one will always sacrifice real-life 3D for comfort and vise versa.
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Pretty sure this works with both 16:9 resolutions and 4:3...scratch that I just tried it with a couple 4:3 resolutions and they're off, lower separation, but both 16:9 resolutions I tried were spot on. Interesting... so it's affected by the aspect ratio, you would think they'd account for 4:3 resolutions on a 16:9 monitor size...I'll mess with it and see if I can come up with something for that aspect ratio, 5:2... what resolution do you use with that?
@RAGEdemon "Setting IPD to screen separation is meaningless" tell that to someone that's playing at a restricted '100% Depth' that isn't even remotely close to their IPD yet... distance to screen is a whole other equation, I sit so close to my 3D DLP TV and now my 3D Monitor that if I'm over my IPD I can't focus on infinity. Sure I could force myself to get used to it but it's just not the same.
If you relax your eyes and stare off to 'infinity' and wave a book or DVD case left and right in front of your glasses, alternately blocking the views, and notice any shift between the views then you're not actually focusing on it... that's what happens when you exceed your IPD, adding distance from the screen can more or less mask it to a degree but then you also lessen the fov, which imo is never ever enough...
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
with my setup I use 2 DLP PRojectors.. I run at 2048 x 768 combined resolution. the Aspect ratio is 21:9..measured diagonally it is about 8 feet maybe a bit more if measured inside the curve..
I sit 3 feet from the entire screen so at all times every spot of the screen is 3 feet away roughly..
Yes sorry for the curve thing hehe!! ;)
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[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
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The sole point of setting low monitor size is purely to lift the arbitrary max depth limit for our experimentation. Of course, this is not required if the separation is already able to reach the point where your eyes would need to diverge to keep up.
You two guys are sitting unbelievably close to your huge displays! Amazing! Of course, this is the reason the separation is pretty much identical to your IPD! :)
Unfortunately, this is not the case for most people.
Try moving a few meters away from a projected screen / TV, or ~1m away from the monitor.
As you do this, you will note that the depth changes substantially as you move further away.
I am sitting 3m away. My IPD is 67mm. To perceive real life infinity from my screen, I have to adjust screen separation to >300mm - a factor of 4.5x my IPD.
@DarkStarSword, I'm afraid I don't understand your point. If you want 0 eye strain, one doesn't use 3D Vision. The higher the depth you use, the more the eye strain until the point of divergence is reached. There is no perfect value of screen separation because you can't replicate real life and have 0 eye strain in 3D Vision because of the reasons explained above.
What are we trying to achieve?
If it's being able to view real life infinity and every depth in between 0 and infinity on the screen, then there is no other "method". Setting IPD distance as screen distance is a null hypothesis compared to any other arbitrary value if sitting at reasonable distances from the screen as most people do.
Aside from this, setting the maximum depth that your eyes can take as 100% limit, and then adjusting the separation per game to percentages below 100% depending on your desired 3D vs comfort is how things ought to work by design.
I am quite baffled by your statement. It's like saying you wouldn't recommend an optician's advice on glasses prescription because his eye tests "relies on providing feedback to your brain that can only be explained by your optic muscles not responding properly (or specifc optical distortion effects), which it can and will compensate for, but not without feeling strain." This, of course, is quite ridiculous ;-)
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This is the reason you feel strain, this is the reason I do not recommend this - you ARE diverging your eyes, but it doesn't feel like it because your brain doesn't believe you are - it just thinks your muscles aren't working properly and has to push them a little extra hard to get your eyes parallel.
This is also why it is easier to do on a projector since the distance of the screen means the angles your eyes diverge will be smaller and therefore easier for your brain to accept.
Now, this WILL make the image look significantly further away than the screen, which is why it looks so good on a projector when the screen is already far away, but it does so by changing your brain's notion of where your eyes should be pointing to see infinity - which could also affect your perception outside 3D Vision (or at least take a moment for your brain to work out that your muscles started working normally again and it no longer needs to compensate).
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D, Intel i7 3740QM, GTX 680m 2GB, 16GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM, Win7 64bit, 1TB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750GB HDD
Pre-release 3D fixes, shadertool.py and other goodies: http://github.com/DarkStarSword/3d-fixes
Support me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DarkStarSword or PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/DarkStarSword
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]