Assassins Creed Black Flag Dx11 3D Fix*
  5 / 6    
Rusytk, the stuttering happens with AA off, and even all options on off/low. It could be that the game is too much for my 580s, who knows. But it does not happen without the fix. Any easy way to check VRAM usage, and how to know if it's the cause? Nvidia Inspector does not monitor VRAM usage.
Rusytk, the stuttering happens with AA off, and even all options on off/low. It could be that the game is too much for my 580s, who knows. But it does not happen without the fix. Any easy way to check VRAM usage, and how to know if it's the cause? Nvidia Inspector does not monitor VRAM usage.

#61
Posted 07/09/2014 08:12 PM   
You can use MSI Afterburner with it's in-game overlay, a Logitech G15/G19 keyboard or observe it on a second monitor. There's another program...precision something I think... When I first saw your post, it made me think of the infamous moving ropes in Crysis 3 and how FPS would completely drop. http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/21989/crysis-3s-performance-on-pc-takes-hit-over-moving-ropes Volnaiskra has an interesting blog on PhysX Seeing as how this game uses PHYSX, it might be a good read. http://www.volnapc.com/all-posts/how-much-difference-does-a-dedicated-physx-card-make EDIT: overlays often cause problems in games, so keep that in the back of your mind. Windows task manager also can be used to monitor system usage and record any preset length of time.
You can use MSI Afterburner with it's in-game overlay, a Logitech G15/G19 keyboard or observe it on a second monitor. There's another program...precision something I think...

When I first saw your post, it made me think of the infamous moving ropes in Crysis 3 and how FPS would completely drop.
http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/21989/crysis-3s-performance-on-pc-takes-hit-over-moving-ropes

Volnaiskra has an interesting blog on PhysX Seeing as how this game uses PHYSX, it might be a good read.
http://www.volnapc.com/all-posts/how-much-difference-does-a-dedicated-physx-card-make

EDIT: overlays often cause problems in games, so keep that in the back of your mind.

Windows task manager also can be used to monitor system usage and record any preset length of time.

#62
Posted 07/09/2014 09:03 PM   
I'm becoming paranoid, so I'm trying other games now. I've been able to reproduce the stutter in Bad Company 2, if I max out all settings. Goes from 60 to 52-53 occasionally, if I run around and I bring more textures/polygons in or out of view. It's still very annoying, curiously, even if the dip is not too big. As soon as I switch AA off, it stabilises at 60 fps. I still don't know why it does it so badly with the AC4 fix (42 to 25 dip), or why it does it even if I only run around looking at the ground, or even in 2D. But it becomes more and more probable that my cards simply don't cut it for newer games (or even older ones, apparently, if I max out the visuals). If nothing good comes from my tests, at least maybe we can guess what particular aspect of the cards is lacking (VRAM?) so that I can focus my upgrade accordingly.
I'm becoming paranoid, so I'm trying other games now. I've been able to reproduce the stutter in Bad Company 2, if I max out all settings. Goes from 60 to 52-53 occasionally, if I run around and I bring more textures/polygons in or out of view. It's still very annoying, curiously, even if the dip is not too big.
As soon as I switch AA off, it stabilises at 60 fps.

I still don't know why it does it so badly with the AC4 fix (42 to 25 dip), or why it does it even if I only run around looking at the ground, or even in 2D. But it becomes more and more probable that my cards simply don't cut it for newer games (or even older ones, apparently, if I max out the visuals).
If nothing good comes from my tests, at least maybe we can guess what particular aspect of the cards is lacking (VRAM?) so that I can focus my upgrade accordingly.

#63
Posted 07/09/2014 09:30 PM   
[quote="Zappologist"]Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity. [u]The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix.[/u] I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.[/quote]Thanks for the detailed look. I think the CPU usage is the problem in this case. When I run on a very similar system, I don't see those stalls. (I think stall is a good word here, as it's on the long side, a dip in performance). The only really difference between our systems is the CPU, and I have less cores/threads. When I was running before, I know for sure that I was get about 80% CPU load, almost all 4 cores active, and definitely at least three. If you are getting only a single core active, that is the problem, because a single core cannot feed the GPUs fast enough. Now, curiously, I tried this last night, and I'm now getting fps of 11. 11! And, the same symptom of only a single core being active. I measured the performance of this game with Visual Studio's performance profiler before, and in general it is GPU bound, so that SLI 580 cannot turn all the settings up, but can still play great at a minimum of 40 fps. But not when the CPU is somehow throttled. I'll do some more experiments, and if you can try to narrow down the CPU bottleneck that would be good too. (BTW, I'd recommend keeping your page file on your SSD. That's unrelated to this problem, paging would cause stutter, not stalls. The SSD is the best spot for page file for performance. People talk crazy talk about wearing it out- but that's just not going to happen. I've written over 15TB to my SSDs, with only 4% wear so far.)
Zappologist said:Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.

The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix. I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
Thanks for the detailed look.

I think the CPU usage is the problem in this case. When I run on a very similar system, I don't see those stalls. (I think stall is a good word here, as it's on the long side, a dip in performance). The only really difference between our systems is the CPU, and I have less cores/threads.

When I was running before, I know for sure that I was get about 80% CPU load, almost all 4 cores active, and definitely at least three. If you are getting only a single core active, that is the problem, because a single core cannot feed the GPUs fast enough.


Now, curiously, I tried this last night, and I'm now getting fps of 11. 11! And, the same symptom of only a single core being active.

I measured the performance of this game with Visual Studio's performance profiler before, and in general it is GPU bound, so that SLI 580 cannot turn all the settings up, but can still play great at a minimum of 40 fps. But not when the CPU is somehow throttled.

I'll do some more experiments, and if you can try to narrow down the CPU bottleneck that would be good too.


(BTW, I'd recommend keeping your page file on your SSD. That's unrelated to this problem, paging would cause stutter, not stalls. The SSD is the best spot for page file for performance. People talk crazy talk about wearing it out- but that's just not going to happen. I've written over 15TB to my SSDs, with only 4% wear so far.)

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#64
Posted 07/09/2014 10:21 PM   
I have the same stutter in AC4 and I have 2 x 780Ti clocked at 1250Mhz skyn3t bios. No matter what clocks on your cards you run it still gets stutter. Mainly in the cities tho where there are lots of people outside is fine. And yes certain parts in the city always stutter as you pass through them and it will always be in the exact same part
I have the same stutter in AC4 and I have 2 x 780Ti clocked at 1250Mhz skyn3t bios. No matter what clocks on your cards you run it still gets stutter. Mainly in the cities tho where there are lots of people outside is fine. And yes certain parts in the city always stutter as you pass through them and it will always be in the exact same part

i7 4930K @ 4.4GHz
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#65
Posted 07/10/2014 06:15 AM   
Hi Bo3b, I don't think I did away with the page file completely, I think I reduced it in size because there was an article that the comon knwledge of "half your RAM" or something, was not applicable to SSDs. Regarding the CPU issue, I will do some more tests and focus on that. I've already tried last night Mike's recomendations with the alt-tab/change core affinity, but it did not seem to have an impact. Also, more revealing perhaps, I believe the core load is the same with the fix as it is [u]without it[/u]. However, the fps stalls/dips do not happen without the fix. From the other experiment, with Bad Company 2, I see that fps dips of 5-6 fps from a constant average are experienced as "stutters" (now the word is appropriate perhaps, since the game's responsiveness/comfort is not heavily impacted - more like microstuttering, perhaps), while fps dips of 17 from the average definitely make for a "disruptive" experience. I've never monitored fps while gaming before. I've always imagined that my games were always at a maximum fps. So the most unexpected discovery yesterday was that AC4, without the fix, during a rain, in Havana, was showing 19-21 constant average, and [u]felt [/u]smooth, compared to the usual stalls. EDIT Just to be clear, since I don't have experience with this. Only the first core of the eight displayed in the Task Manager - Performance section was showing a [u]full [/u]load. Another two or three of them showed [u]some [/u]load, while two or three showed [u]no[/u] load. I will try to check if this happens in all my games, or only in some.
Hi Bo3b,
I don't think I did away with the page file completely, I think I reduced it in size because there was an article that the comon knwledge of "half your RAM" or something, was not applicable to SSDs.

Regarding the CPU issue, I will do some more tests and focus on that. I've already tried last night Mike's recomendations with the alt-tab/change core affinity, but it did not seem to have an impact.
Also, more revealing perhaps, I believe the core load is the same with the fix as it is without it. However, the fps stalls/dips do not happen without the fix.

From the other experiment, with Bad Company 2, I see that fps dips of 5-6 fps from a constant average are experienced as "stutters" (now the word is appropriate perhaps, since the game's responsiveness/comfort is not heavily impacted - more like microstuttering, perhaps), while fps dips of 17 from the average definitely make for a "disruptive" experience.

I've never monitored fps while gaming before. I've always imagined that my games were always at a maximum fps. So the most unexpected discovery yesterday was that AC4, without the fix, during a rain, in Havana, was showing 19-21 constant average, and felt smooth, compared to the usual stalls.

EDIT
Just to be clear, since I don't have experience with this. Only the first core of the eight displayed in the Task Manager - Performance section was showing a full load. Another two or three of them showed some load, while two or three showed no load.
I will try to check if this happens in all my games, or only in some.

#66
Posted 07/10/2014 07:33 AM   
Check out this thread. It shows a way to use HWiNFO along with MSI afterburner. If you are not monitoring via a second monitor, this will give you the option for more or less in-game info as desired. http://www.overclock.net/t/1229915/how-to-cpu-and-gpu-usage-along-with-fps-in-game EDIT: I forgot to mention when I said "Windows task manager also can be used to monitor system usage and record any preset length of time. " You have to type in perfmon in "run", to enable recording EDIT:#2 I see that there are plug ins for HWiNFO that allow recording http://www.hwinfo.com/addons.php http://www.hwinfo.com/forum/Thread-LogViewer-for-HWINFO-is-available
Check out this thread. It shows a way to use HWiNFO along with MSI afterburner. If you are not monitoring via a second monitor, this will give you the option for more or less in-game info as desired.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1229915/how-to-cpu-and-gpu-usage-along-with-fps-in-game

EDIT: I forgot to mention when I said "Windows task manager also can be used to monitor system usage and record any preset length of time. "

You have to type in perfmon in "run", to enable recording

EDIT:#2 I see that there are plug ins for HWiNFO that allow recording
http://www.hwinfo.com/addons.php
http://www.hwinfo.com/forum/Thread-LogViewer-for-HWINFO-is-available

#67
Posted 07/10/2014 09:31 AM   
The other thing that could be worth doing if you are on windows 8 I think is make sure your cpu cores are unparked. This made a big difference for me as I have a 6 core cpu. I have found the alt-tab/change core affinity to help a bit but I think you have to do it while in game not in the menu. It balances the load across your cpu which seems to make gameplay a little bit smoother. The other thing that can help stutter is while in windows put the computer to sleep then wake it up again another user in the drivers forum noticed this and it seems to work for some not for others. Nvidia are looking into why putting the computer to sleep has an impact on the system and the bug has been reported. But SLI has had bad support lately most of the games as of late do not support SLI and you seem to wait for ever before they do. Then there seem to be more and more games capped at 60fps which im not keen on. On the flip side tho I have been playing AC4 with the 3d fix and can say that it is unreal big thanks to the guys and the time spent on it. I have been playing on windows 8.1 with no issues. Give me 3d any day of the week over 4k resolution. I have been into shops and looked at 2 or 3 different 4k monitors and have not been impressed. They don't seem the big improvement that everyone is making out. Im waiting for the rog swift display hopefully its good at 3d.
The other thing that could be worth doing if you are on windows 8 I think is make sure your cpu cores are unparked. This made a big difference for me as I have a 6 core cpu. I have found the alt-tab/change core affinity to help a bit but I think you have to do it while in game not in the menu. It balances the load across your cpu which seems to make gameplay a little bit smoother. The other thing that can help stutter is while in windows put the computer to sleep then wake it up again another user in the drivers forum noticed this and it seems to work for some not for others. Nvidia are looking into why putting the computer to sleep has an impact on the system and the bug has been reported. But SLI has had bad support lately most of the games as of late do not support SLI and you seem to wait for ever before they do. Then there seem to be more and more games capped at 60fps which im not keen on.

On the flip side tho I have been playing AC4 with the 3d fix and can say that it is unreal big thanks to the guys and the time spent on it. I have been playing on windows 8.1 with no issues. Give me 3d any day of the week over 4k resolution. I have been into shops and looked at 2 or 3 different 4k monitors and have not been impressed. They don't seem the big improvement that everyone is making out. Im waiting for the rog swift display hopefully its good at 3d.

i7 4930K @ 4.4GHz
Asus P9X79 Pro
3 Way SLI Titan Black @ 1400mhz skyn3t VBIOS (Hardvolt Mod)
Mushkin Redline @ 2200MHz 32GB
Asus Xonar U7 Echelon Soundcard
Samsung Pro 256 GB SSD Games
Samsung Evo 256 GB SSD Windows 8.1 Pro
Samsung Evo 256 GB SSD Windows 7 Ultimate
Asus ROG Swift 1440p 144hz G-Sync
PSU Corsair AX1500i
Astro A50 Wireless Headset
Corsair 800D Case Custom Waterloop

#68
Posted 07/10/2014 05:39 PM   
Logzz, thanks for confirming the stuttering, and the fact taht it happens in fixed places. I'm on Win7, so the unparked cores idea probably is not applicable. I've checked the cores again, with same results. One is fully loaded, with three others working just a little, the rest are idle. Messing around with the affinity does indeed seem to balance the load over 4 of the 8 cores, so teh first is not fully working but neither are the other three. As if it's outputting the same computation charge over all, just more distributed. No impact on the game. Unplayable fps dips from 45 to 25 with the fix, smooth average 50 fps without the fix, with just occasional dips to 40-45 in crowded areas. Will stop these tests now, I think I no longer can discover much. The last thing I'm going to do is to downgrade to pre-CM drivers, to play DMC. Will try AC4 to see if there are any changes, but probably no reason to think so. Hoping really hard someone comes across a solution (apparently upgrading is not really one, since even more powerful cards suffer from the same), as this game is awesome with the Migoto fix.
Logzz, thanks for confirming the stuttering, and the fact taht it happens in fixed places.
I'm on Win7, so the unparked cores idea probably is not applicable.

I've checked the cores again, with same results. One is fully loaded, with three others working just a little, the rest are idle. Messing around with the affinity does indeed seem to balance the load over 4 of the 8 cores, so teh first is not fully working but neither are the other three. As if it's outputting the same computation charge over all, just more distributed.

No impact on the game. Unplayable fps dips from 45 to 25 with the fix, smooth average 50 fps without the fix, with just occasional dips to 40-45 in crowded areas.

Will stop these tests now, I think I no longer can discover much. The last thing I'm going to do is to downgrade to pre-CM drivers, to play DMC. Will try AC4 to see if there are any changes, but probably no reason to think so.
Hoping really hard someone comes across a solution (apparently upgrading is not really one, since even more powerful cards suffer from the same), as this game is awesome with the Migoto fix.

#69
Posted 07/10/2014 06:30 PM   
What are your power management settings set at? Balanced and Power saver will cause increased core parking. I think bo3b games at 1280x720P on his projector. Perhaps try lowering your resolution during a test and see what results you get.
What are your power management settings set at? Balanced and Power saver will cause increased core parking.

I think bo3b games at 1280x720P on his projector. Perhaps try lowering your resolution during a test and see what results you get.

#70
Posted 07/10/2014 07:47 PM   
[quote="Zappologist"]I'm becoming paranoid, so I'm trying other games now. I've been able to reproduce the stutter in Bad Company 2, if I max out all settings. Goes from 60 to 52-53 occasionally, if I run around and I bring more textures/polygons in or out of view. It's still very annoying, curiously, even if the dip is not too big. As soon as I switch AA off, it stabilises at 60 fps. I still don't know why it does it so badly with the AC4 fix (42 to 25 dip), or why it does it even if I only run around looking at the ground, or even in 2D. But it becomes more and more probable that my cards simply don't cut it for newer games (or even older ones, apparently, if I max out the visuals). If nothing good comes from my tests, at least maybe we can guess what particular aspect of the cards is lacking (VRAM?) so that I can focus my upgrade accordingly.[/quote] I know I said that I did not think the shader files should be causing this, but I don't actually know, so did you try deleting/renaming the ShaderFixes folder so that no fixed files are loaded? If it does solve it, then we can find out which shader(s) and solve it. Someone earlier mentioned using a binary approach to removing shaders, but to start just remove all of them and see if it stops the stalling. If not, then it's something to do with the wrapper (though I have no idea what). I hope you do sort it out, I fired the game up again the other night after reading your earlier posts and it really does look great lol. @bo3b - I can't remember if AC4 is using the 'new' 6-DLL release of Migoto, or the original one with 12-or so dlls, but could it be worth trying a build with the leaner release (assuming it's not already)? Perhaps just experimental for Zappologist to try out...
Zappologist said:I'm becoming paranoid, so I'm trying other games now. I've been able to reproduce the stutter in Bad Company 2, if I max out all settings. Goes from 60 to 52-53 occasionally, if I run around and I bring more textures/polygons in or out of view. It's still very annoying, curiously, even if the dip is not too big.
As soon as I switch AA off, it stabilises at 60 fps.

I still don't know why it does it so badly with the AC4 fix (42 to 25 dip), or why it does it even if I only run around looking at the ground, or even in 2D. But it becomes more and more probable that my cards simply don't cut it for newer games (or even older ones, apparently, if I max out the visuals).
If nothing good comes from my tests, at least maybe we can guess what particular aspect of the cards is lacking (VRAM?) so that I can focus my upgrade accordingly.

I know I said that I did not think the shader files should be causing this, but I don't actually know, so did you try deleting/renaming the ShaderFixes folder so that no fixed files are loaded? If it does solve it, then we can find out which shader(s) and solve it. Someone earlier mentioned using a binary approach to removing shaders, but to start just remove all of them and see if it stops the stalling. If not, then it's something to do with the wrapper (though I have no idea what).
I hope you do sort it out, I fired the game up again the other night after reading your earlier posts and it really does look great lol.

@bo3b - I can't remember if AC4 is using the 'new' 6-DLL release of Migoto, or the original one with 12-or so dlls, but could it be worth trying a build with the leaner release (assuming it's not already)? Perhaps just experimental for Zappologist to try out...

Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278

#71
Posted 07/10/2014 08:16 PM   
Hi guys, thanks for the suggestions. I've made too many posts, so you may have missed some of them. I tried to downgrade the visual quality with anything possible, including resolution 800-600, the lowest. I've erased all the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes (though not the folder itself, but still, there were no shaders loading, game playing broken as vanilla but with Migoto running) Nothing solves the big fps dip apart from uninstalling the wrapper. I appreciate the help, Mike and Bo3b, but please don't waste too much time on me, you've given us enough as it is. But I really do appreciate a lot that you guys are investigating. If my plight can lead to a leaner, more efficient wrapper, then I'm willing to test out anything you guys need me to. Cheers!
Hi guys, thanks for the suggestions. I've made too many posts, so you may have missed some of them.
I tried to downgrade the visual quality with anything possible, including resolution 800-600, the lowest.
I've erased all the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes (though not the folder itself, but still, there were no shaders loading, game playing broken as vanilla but with Migoto running)
Nothing solves the big fps dip apart from uninstalling the wrapper.

I appreciate the help, Mike and Bo3b, but please don't waste too much time on me, you've given us enough as it is. But I really do appreciate a lot that you guys are investigating. If my plight can lead to a leaner, more efficient wrapper, then I'm willing to test out anything you guys need me to.
Cheers!

#72
Posted 07/10/2014 08:31 PM   
Zappologist try this, found it via Youube. Use the Manage Parked CPU Utility, not the Beta (the Beta seems to set CPU speed threshold?) http://www.coderbag.com/Programming-C/Disable-CPU-Core-Parking-Utility Weird, after using this, I'm seeing activity on my vendor disabled cores. I'm not sure if that good or bad. Bad, if these disabled cores are not stable. Although activity on them is very minimal compared to the unlocked cores. YouTube FTW. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP92GzDz7h8
Zappologist try this, found it via Youube.

Use the Manage Parked CPU Utility, not the Beta (the Beta seems to set CPU speed threshold?)


http://www.coderbag.com/Programming-C/Disable-CPU-Core-Parking-Utility


Weird, after using this, I'm seeing activity on my vendor disabled cores. I'm not sure if that good or bad. Bad, if these disabled cores are not stable. Although activity on them is very minimal compared to the unlocked cores.

YouTube FTW.

#73
Posted 07/10/2014 08:41 PM   
i tried both i disabled parking for my cpu cores and deleted the shaderfixes but didnt help, stutter still occurs.
i tried both

i disabled parking for my cpu cores
and deleted the shaderfixes

but didnt help, stutter still occurs.

#74
Posted 07/10/2014 11:11 PM   
The metric you want to look at is whether you GPU is fully utilized or not. This game is heavily GPU dependent, normally, and should max anyone's GPU. In my case, SLI 580 is ticking over at about 30% usage- this is clearly limited by the CPU problem. I'm moving toward using SLI 760, and have a single 760 right now, and it runs at about 25% usage. Better/newer hardware is not going to solve this problem. I don't think it's an affinity or core parking problem, but it was worth the experiment, so thanks for that. Also, I get this effect regardless of whether 3Dmigoto is installed or not. Something has gone bad with my install.
The metric you want to look at is whether you GPU is fully utilized or not. This game is heavily GPU dependent, normally, and should max anyone's GPU.

In my case, SLI 580 is ticking over at about 30% usage- this is clearly limited by the CPU problem.

I'm moving toward using SLI 760, and have a single 760 right now, and it runs at about 25% usage. Better/newer hardware is not going to solve this problem.

I don't think it's an affinity or core parking problem, but it was worth the experiment, so thanks for that.


Also, I get this effect regardless of whether 3Dmigoto is installed or not. Something has gone bad with my install.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#75
Posted 07/10/2014 11:55 PM   
  5 / 6    
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