Nvidia Ground Loop. Noise under load.
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I've explained multiple times how the computer is connected to the amp. I've even moved the setup to a different room with the pc marantz and speaker. I've tried a different PSU, a different gfx card and it still buzzes. I've tried different cables, different inputs and it still buzzes. The Xbox one and Wii U don't buzz when connected to the amp. Just this PC. The marantz is connected to the speakers using balanced XLR connections. These shouldn't create any noise. They are pro connectors used to stop sounds like this happening. I 've built up an old pc I'm going to try the 680 gfx card in to see if it's something coming from the pc itself. I've not tried headphones yet and I've never said for certain that I think it's coming from the amp. I've literally nearly ran out of things to try. There's only the motherboard and cpu left to test on the PC side. I've contacted marantz to find out whether their outputs and really balanced or not. As in the video, the noise comes out of all 11 active speakers. The atmos and surround speakers are a different make to the left right and centre speakers so all the speakers can't be broken. Any other suggestions appreciated.
I've explained multiple times how the computer is connected to the amp.
I've even moved the setup to a different room with the pc marantz and speaker.
I've tried a different PSU, a different gfx card and it still buzzes.
I've tried different cables, different inputs and it still buzzes.
The Xbox one and Wii U don't buzz when connected to the amp. Just this PC.
The marantz is connected to the speakers using balanced XLR connections.
These shouldn't create any noise. They are pro connectors used to stop sounds like this happening.

I 've built up an old pc I'm going to try the 680 gfx card in to see if it's something coming from the pc itself.
I've not tried headphones yet and I've never said for certain that I think it's coming from the amp.
I've literally nearly ran out of things to try. There's only the motherboard and cpu left to test on the PC side.
I've contacted marantz to find out whether their outputs and really balanced or not.

As in the video, the noise comes out of all 11 active speakers. The atmos and surround speakers are a different make to the left right and centre speakers so all the speakers can't be broken.

Any other suggestions appreciated.

#31
Posted 02/21/2017 08:39 AM   
I suggested the audio driver because I saw a post stating that it caused a BSOD. When the user installed the older version of the audio driver, all was well. When looking at driver notes, the version number had changed, thus it might not work well with some operating systems or hardware. https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/995240/geforce-drivers/bug-hdmi-audio-last-drivers-nvidia-causing-bsdo/ Not a likely thing to cause it, but in this case you have to try anything. What about power strips and surge protectors? Some of them are made very cheaply. Tom's hardware did some articles on them and the quality shown in the pictures was disturbing [url]http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/675-cheap-power-strip-tear-down.html#s33[/url] They make ground lifters for balanced cables, just because the cables are balanced, does not mean that they are not capable of passing along the sound. http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-do-balanced-connections-prevent-ground-loops The reason I said that I figured you'd have a Furman or something similar, is because of the claims that power conditioners can help to play back audio signals that might otherwise be lost, as well as providing EMI and RFI noise reduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAAEhtAUT34 Best of luck
I suggested the audio driver because I saw a post stating that it caused a BSOD. When the user installed the older version of the audio driver, all was well. When looking at driver notes, the version number had changed, thus it might not work well with some operating systems or hardware.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/995240/geforce-drivers/bug-hdmi-audio-last-drivers-nvidia-causing-bsdo/


Not a likely thing to cause it, but in this case you have to try anything.

What about power strips and surge protectors? Some of them are made very cheaply. Tom's hardware did some articles on them and the quality shown in the pictures was disturbing



http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/675-cheap-power-strip-tear-down.html#s33

They make ground lifters for balanced cables, just because the cables are balanced, does not mean that they are not capable of passing along the sound.


http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-do-balanced-connections-prevent-ground-loops


The reason I said that I figured you'd have a Furman or something similar, is because of the claims that power conditioners can help to play back audio signals that might otherwise be lost, as well as providing EMI and RFI noise reduction.



Best of luck

#32
Posted 02/21/2017 03:48 PM   
Thanks D-Mann11. I do have an uniterupptable power supply. I think it does the same thing as the furman. That sound on sound article is interesting. Once I get this old pc up and running and let you know if the 680gtx buzzes in that when connected to the amp. I'll try with headphones and the older HD audio driver once I've built the water loop back up again.
Thanks D-Mann11.
I do have an uniterupptable power supply. I think it does the same thing as the furman.
That sound on sound article is interesting.

Once I get this old pc up and running and let you know if the 680gtx buzzes in that when connected to the amp.

I'll try with headphones and the older HD audio driver once I've built the water loop back up again.

#33
Posted 02/21/2017 10:02 PM   
Perhaps this might help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-6jBk9YPM
Perhaps this might help

#34
Posted 02/22/2017 07:21 AM   
That's a really good video. Funny how it balks about breaking the ground with a transformer. That must be why the Xbox and Wii U don't hum. I think a hdmi isolator may help from the gfx card to the amp but I read they strip HDCP. I'll do some more testing when I get a free minute and keep this post updated.
That's a really good video. Funny how it balks about breaking the ground with a transformer.
That must be why the Xbox and Wii U don't hum.
I think a hdmi isolator may help from the gfx card to the amp but I read they strip HDCP.

I'll do some more testing when I get a free minute and keep this post updated.

#35
Posted 02/22/2017 01:44 PM   
Just found this forum post and it looks like a lot of people are having my issue with Nvidia Gfx cards and these Marantz receivers. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/1433578-hdmi-ground-noise-amp-solved-via-ground-lift-amp-need-advice.html Such a shame Nvidia's cards seem to be a noise generator like nothing I've ever come across before. I think they should work on their shielding/interference control as it's pretty weak to be fair! I can hear the buzzing coming through the speakers when I'm playing the wii U even though the PC sound source isn't connected! It's literally traveling down the shielding of the HDMI cable from the Nvidia card! I've never come across a noisier piece of hardware in my life and I'm really into tube guitar amps and single coil pickups! I hope they fix the groundloops on the chips before they put them in cars! Imagine driving your Audi around with the alternator noise coming through the speakers! I might have to get an external Soundcard with a HDMI passthrough for sound or a HDMI isolator and hope it works. I'm not lifting the ground on 11 active speakers that's for sure! If something goes wrong i'll end up looking like that electricity spouting baddy from the Spider-Man films!
Just found this forum post and it looks like a lot of people are having my issue with Nvidia Gfx cards and these Marantz receivers.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/1433578-hdmi-ground-noise-amp-solved-via-ground-lift-amp-need-advice.html

Such a shame Nvidia's cards seem to be a noise generator like nothing I've ever come across before.

I think they should work on their shielding/interference control as it's pretty weak to be fair!

I can hear the buzzing coming through the speakers when I'm playing the wii U even though the PC sound source isn't connected!

It's literally traveling down the shielding of the HDMI cable from the Nvidia card!
I've never come across a noisier piece of hardware in my life and I'm really into tube guitar amps and single coil pickups!

I hope they fix the groundloops on the chips before they put them in cars! Imagine driving your Audi around with the alternator noise coming through the speakers!

I might have to get an external Soundcard with a HDMI passthrough for sound or a HDMI isolator and hope it works.

I'm not lifting the ground on 11 active speakers that's for sure!
If something goes wrong i'll end up looking like that electricity spouting baddy from the Spider-Man films!

#36
Posted 02/23/2017 08:03 PM   
Slice into a cheap HDMI cable and break the shielding path in a section. This should stop any problems being transmitted through the shielding between the GFX card and the Marantz, and it shouldn't impact quality.
Slice into a cheap HDMI cable and break the shielding path in a section. This should stop any problems being transmitted through the shielding between the GFX card and the Marantz, and it shouldn't impact quality.

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#37
Posted 02/24/2017 12:43 AM   
I'm still unconvinced this is a ground loop, seems like jumping to a conclusion, not debugging to find the answer. I've never heard of ground loops generating anything except 60Hz. You can experimentally lift the ground on the PC. Disconnect anything that has an alternate ground, like USB hubs or other powered equipment. And put a grounding adapter on your PC power supply, so that it is no longer grounded. [url]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Cheater_plug_edited.jpg/220px-Cheater_plug_edited.jpg[/url] Assuming that your Marantz is grounded, and the HDMI has a ground path, then the entire system is still grounded, and there is no electrical shock risk, it just has one ground, instead of two. Edit: Interesting thread on avsforums. That does sound like the problem was a ground loop picking up video card electrical noise via the HDMI. Also notable that the Marantz does not use a ground plug, so its ground is going elsewhere. Can also run a specific ground wire from PC chassis to Marantz chassis. The Marantz is nearly guaranteed to have a specific ground jack on the back.
I'm still unconvinced this is a ground loop, seems like jumping to a conclusion, not debugging to find the answer. I've never heard of ground loops generating anything except 60Hz.


You can experimentally lift the ground on the PC. Disconnect anything that has an alternate ground, like USB hubs or other powered equipment. And put a grounding adapter on your PC power supply, so that it is no longer grounded.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Cheater_plug_edited.jpg/220px-Cheater_plug_edited.jpg

Assuming that your Marantz is grounded, and the HDMI has a ground path, then the entire system is still grounded, and there is no electrical shock risk, it just has one ground, instead of two.


Edit: Interesting thread on avsforums. That does sound like the problem was a ground loop picking up video card electrical noise via the HDMI.

Also notable that the Marantz does not use a ground plug, so its ground is going elsewhere. Can also run a specific ground wire from PC chassis to Marantz chassis. The Marantz is nearly guaranteed to have a specific ground jack on the back.

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#38
Posted 02/24/2017 02:13 AM   
Yes the Marantz isn't grounded Bo3b. I've not tried the chassis trick yet because of this... To quote another thread with someone who fixed the issue. https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=1169035 [quote=""]Good news. The HDBaseT converter/extender works as intended and fixes the problem. I have removed the 3-to-2 prong power plug converter from the HTPC power cord, and I get absolutely no noise or hum. It's a shame this technology hasn't taken off and become less expensive and more widespread. I'm still experimenting with tying the processor and amp chassis together, but it does not seem to make a difference so far.[/quote] Looks like i'll have to buy one of these HDBaseT HDMI extenders if all else fails. I'll try your idea first though ragedemon with cutting the HDMI shield as I was thinking along the same lines.... After all the days of working out what the hell is wrong with my system, it looks like it's NVidia's bad card design that's fundamental to my woes! All those 1000's of engineers working on pascal and they didn't even try gaming with active speakers?!? Those poor game developers working on audio must be going nuts!
Yes the Marantz isn't grounded Bo3b. I've not tried the chassis trick yet because of this...

To quote another thread with someone who fixed the issue.

https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?t=1169035

said:Good news. The HDBaseT converter/extender works as intended and fixes the problem. I have removed the 3-to-2 prong power plug converter from the HTPC power cord, and I get absolutely no noise or hum. It's a shame this technology hasn't taken off and become less expensive and more widespread.

I'm still experimenting with tying the processor and amp chassis together, but it does not seem to make a difference so far.


Looks like i'll have to buy one of these HDBaseT HDMI extenders if all else fails.
I'll try your idea first though ragedemon with cutting the HDMI shield as I was thinking along the same lines....


After all the days of working out what the hell is wrong with my system, it looks like it's NVidia's bad card design that's fundamental to my woes!
All those 1000's of engineers working on pascal and they didn't even try gaming with active speakers?!?
Those poor game developers working on audio must be going nuts!

#39
Posted 02/24/2017 03:12 AM   
I tired cutting the shield on a HDMI cable.....same noise. Looks like I have to try the HDBaseT HDMI extender. someone should be paying me for this shit. Is there a way I can lift the ground power on my PC safely in a way that will eliminate the noise?
I tired cutting the shield on a HDMI cable.....same noise.
Looks like I have to try the HDBaseT HDMI extender.

someone should be paying me for this shit.

Is there a way I can lift the ground power on my PC safely in a way that will eliminate the noise?

#40
Posted 03/02/2017 09:03 PM   
Just in case anyone gives a shit / for future reference I bought a HDBaseT transmitter and receiver to convert HDMI to Ethernet and then back again. This still didn't fix the noise. Seemed to make it slightly quieter though. Going to disconnect the earth pin on my PC power plug tomorrow to see if it gets rid of the noise. If the noise goes I have a ground issue, if the noise stays my gfx card or motherboard is at fault.
Just in case anyone gives a shit / for future reference
I bought a HDBaseT transmitter and receiver to convert HDMI to Ethernet and then back again.
This still didn't fix the noise. Seemed to make it slightly quieter though.

Going to disconnect the earth pin on my PC power plug tomorrow to see if it gets rid of the noise.
If the noise goes I have a ground issue, if the noise stays my gfx card or motherboard is at fault.

#41
Posted 03/04/2017 12:30 AM   
In the US, we use 120 for almost everything. The only thing that we use 240 for is the Clothes Dryer, Stove/Oven and Air Conditioner. In the UK, you guys us 230 for everything don't you? If so, removing your ground is pretty sketchy. At least somewhat more so, than here in the US.
In the US, we use 120 for almost everything.

The only thing that we use 240 for is the Clothes Dryer, Stove/Oven and Air Conditioner.

In the UK, you guys us 230 for everything don't you?

If so, removing your ground is pretty sketchy. At least somewhat more so, than here in the US.

#42
Posted 03/04/2017 03:10 AM   
[quote="D-Man11"]In the US, we use 120 for almost everything. The only thing that we use 240 for is the Clothes Dryer, Stove/Oven and Air Conditioner. In the UK, you guys us 230 for everything don't you? If so, removing your ground is pretty sketchy. At least somewhat more so, than here in the US.[/quote] No, this is not a serious risk. The ground plug in all electronic gear is to handle an actually very rare situation of an internal short in electronic equipment. The ground plug was optionally suggested starting in 1959, and required by 1968 in the US. So for at least 50 years, it didn't exist as an option. Naturally it's a better and safer approach, but it's not like not having it is insanely dangerous. To get shocked you need at least three rare problems. You need to have the electronic wiring short out somehow, you need that short to not actually trip the breaker but still making the case live, and you need the human to provide a better conductive path. It's happened, that's why the ground plug is now required, but it's rare. For this case, particularly for just an experiment, there is no risk. Particularly because the current thought is that it is still a ground loop. Which means that the problem is that there are two grounds, not just one. So lifting the ground on the PC simply means the other ground would then be the primary, and the whole equipment stack is still grounded and not a shock risk. On the very off chance that the equipment is somehow damaged, it's always worth being sensible about shock risks- keep one hand in your pocket. If it solves the problem, it would then be worth thinking through exactly how to solve the problem longer term, and whether the grounding is adequate to avoid potential faults.
D-Man11 said:In the US, we use 120 for almost everything.

The only thing that we use 240 for is the Clothes Dryer, Stove/Oven and Air Conditioner.

In the UK, you guys us 230 for everything don't you?

If so, removing your ground is pretty sketchy. At least somewhat more so, than here in the US.

No, this is not a serious risk. The ground plug in all electronic gear is to handle an actually very rare situation of an internal short in electronic equipment.

The ground plug was optionally suggested starting in 1959, and required by 1968 in the US. So for at least 50 years, it didn't exist as an option. Naturally it's a better and safer approach, but it's not like not having it is insanely dangerous.

To get shocked you need at least three rare problems. You need to have the electronic wiring short out somehow, you need that short to not actually trip the breaker but still making the case live, and you need the human to provide a better conductive path. It's happened, that's why the ground plug is now required, but it's rare.


For this case, particularly for just an experiment, there is no risk.

Particularly because the current thought is that it is still a ground loop. Which means that the problem is that there are two grounds, not just one. So lifting the ground on the PC simply means the other ground would then be the primary, and the whole equipment stack is still grounded and not a shock risk.

On the very off chance that the equipment is somehow damaged, it's always worth being sensible about shock risks- keep one hand in your pocket.


If it solves the problem, it would then be worth thinking through exactly how to solve the problem longer term, and whether the grounding is adequate to avoid potential faults.

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#43
Posted 03/04/2017 06:29 AM   
So any news on a solution? Or is this noise still there, toying with your sanity?
So any news on a solution?

Or is this noise still there, toying with your sanity?

#44
Posted 03/16/2017 09:34 PM   
Not tried anything new yet due to time constraints. I've got a bit of time off over Easter so will get back on it then. If the ground lift on the pc power works I'll get some ground lift DI boxes for the speakers out. It's definitely coming from the nvidia card though. I've tried two. A 680GTX and a 980TI. Does do it with onboard gfx using the same cables etc.
Not tried anything new yet due to time constraints.
I've got a bit of time off over Easter so will get back on it then.

If the ground lift on the pc power works I'll get some ground lift DI boxes for the speakers out.

It's definitely coming from the nvidia card though. I've tried two. A 680GTX and a 980TI.
Does do it with onboard gfx using the same cables etc.

#45
Posted 03/28/2017 07:35 PM   
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