Future of 3D Vision Support (Official announcement from NVIDIA)
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mb we need some kind of a survey, and then calculate an average monthly price that could suit all of us, counting as basis about 200 people who will pay (i'm in)
mb we need some kind of a survey, and then calculate an average monthly price that could suit all of us, counting as basis about 200 people who will pay (i'm in)

Posted 03/29/2019 08:59 PM   
I would prefer to make a one large donate a to help launch the project I'm not a fan of subscription based software. I will donate regardless when the time comes.
I would prefer to make a one large donate a to help launch the project I'm not a fan of subscription based software.

I will donate regardless when the time comes.

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

Posted 03/29/2019 09:42 PM   
[quote="Electryic"]But I'm curious this is going to be hacking the emitter and Nvidia glasses? Seems like a long shot if it includes anything from Nvidia without them being involved.[/quote] The emitter and glasses do not need to be 'physically' hacked, the main chip is a: cy7c68013a-100axc -> https://www.cypress.com/part/cy7c68013a-100axc Its a pretty slow chip 48-MHz, My regular microcontroller speed is 80mhz but without a built in usb interface, although the ftdi 232r chip is the industry standard for usb interfacing (using the serial port too, very easy to talk to serial, but latency might be issue, the ftdi chips also have a proprietary “direct” driver interface via FTD2XX.DLL --> https://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/ProgramGuides/D2XX_Programmer's_Guide(FT_000071).pdf --> https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/D2XX.htm The pyramid emitter is a microcontroller(cy7c68013a-100axc) with a usb interface that drives a infared arrray driver chip, its a pretty simple deign that can be reverse engineered to make any other microcontroller do the same job with a non-proprietary open source chip and code. The hard part is to keep finding glasses because the shutter lenses in them are not eaisly sourced, unlike the microcontroller and infared emittters. Its even possible that the cy7c68013a-100axc can also just get its firmware re-written, but the circuit design would need to be traced for the button, wheel, and infared driver pin ouput information, probably easier to just design a whole new emitter with a microcontroller that has a language the designer is familiar with for doing the firmware. The pyramid emitter also has a sync-in plug in the back that can be interfaced to any microcontroller very eaisly. (but that also might be clock-locked in the firmware, making variable g-sync not possible) I haven't played with the sync-in plug, but i could to see it if allows a variable sync, and i could also determine its latency if it can do variable sync using the sync in, or does it lock to specific rates(30hz, 60hz, etc) So, the issue is the software side to make the two 3d perspectives render, and then send each perspective to the monitor every other frame in sync with the refreshrate, and then send the signal to the emitter microcontroller via the usb interface. So this is all software, the emitter hardware/firmware is very easy to do and control with software. I said it before, but i think even gsync displays could be used with emitters, just by looking at the emitter design, but i know nothing about how g-sync works in software or the data going over the display port link. I bet you the limitation is that the emitter flicker rate is clock locked in the microcontroller firmware (in the pyramid emitter), which is really dumb if thats why the emitters cannot work with g-sync. Many microcontrollers can be made to emit the infared signal at a variable rate on the fly. Obviously the hardware cost of a replacement emitter would be required if the problem is the firmware in the emitter its self, which again, is really dumb, if thats why 3d dosen't work with g-sync. [img]https://i.imgur.com/JBeeXik.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/LKWAwgG.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/APeEOe2.jpg[/img] Lots of info here that I need to read. https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4605
Electryic said:But I'm curious this is going to be hacking the emitter and Nvidia glasses? Seems like a long shot if it includes anything from Nvidia without them being involved.


The emitter and glasses do not need to be 'physically' hacked, the main chip is a:
cy7c68013a-100axc -> https://www.cypress.com/part/cy7c68013a-100axc

Its a pretty slow chip 48-MHz, My regular microcontroller speed is 80mhz but without a built in usb interface, although the ftdi 232r chip is the industry standard for usb interfacing (using the serial port too, very easy to talk to serial, but latency might be issue, the ftdi chips also have a proprietary “direct” driver interface via FTD2XX.DLL --> https://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/ProgramGuides/D2XX_Programmer's_Guide(FT_000071).pdf --> https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/D2XX.htm

The pyramid emitter is a microcontroller(cy7c68013a-100axc) with a usb interface that drives a infared arrray driver chip, its a pretty simple deign that can be reverse engineered to make any other microcontroller do the same job with a non-proprietary open source chip and code. The hard part is to keep finding glasses because the shutter lenses in them are not eaisly sourced, unlike the microcontroller and infared emittters. Its even possible that the cy7c68013a-100axc can also just get its firmware re-written, but the circuit design would need to be traced for the button, wheel, and infared driver pin ouput information, probably easier to just design a whole new emitter with a microcontroller that has a language the designer is familiar with for doing the firmware.

The pyramid emitter also has a sync-in plug in the back that can be interfaced to any microcontroller very eaisly. (but that also might be clock-locked in the firmware, making variable g-sync not possible) I haven't played with the sync-in plug, but i could to see it if allows a variable sync, and i could also determine its latency if it can do variable sync using the sync in, or does it lock to specific rates(30hz, 60hz, etc)

So, the issue is the software side to make the two 3d perspectives render, and then send each perspective to the monitor every other frame in sync with the refreshrate, and then send the signal to the emitter microcontroller via the usb interface.

So this is all software, the emitter hardware/firmware is very easy to do and control with software.
I said it before, but i think even gsync displays could be used with emitters, just by looking at the emitter design, but i know nothing about how g-sync works in software or the data going over the display port link.

I bet you the limitation is that the emitter flicker rate is clock locked in the microcontroller firmware (in the pyramid emitter), which is really dumb if thats why the emitters cannot work with g-sync. Many microcontrollers can be made to emit the infared signal at a variable rate on the fly.

Obviously the hardware cost of a replacement emitter would be required if the problem is the firmware in the emitter its self, which again, is really dumb, if thats why 3d dosen't work with g-sync.

Image

Image

Image



Lots of info here that I need to read.
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4605

NvidiaDriver-419.35
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Posted 03/29/2019 09:47 PM   
[quote="zig11727"]I would prefer to make a one large donate a to help launch the project I'm not a fan of subscription based software. I will donate regardless when the time comes.[/quote] a big donate is normal but just for a start, but this is not enough, it goes without saying, that there must be a constant "salary", otherwise it will not work, so the average price (annual, or per month) must be considered
zig11727 said:I would prefer to make a one large donate a to help launch the project I'm not a fan of subscription based software.

I will donate regardless when the time comes.

a big donate is normal but just for a start, but this is not enough, it goes without saying, that there must be a constant "salary", otherwise it will not work, so the average price (annual, or per month) must be considered

Posted 03/30/2019 01:33 AM   
Interesting. I saw it mentioned that starting with driver series 421 WDDM 2.6 is implemented, prior to that is WDDM 2.5
Interesting. I saw it mentioned that starting with driver series 421 WDDM 2.6 is implemented, prior to that is WDDM 2.5

Posted 03/30/2019 03:06 PM   
Hi, If 3D Vision dies, i will probably stop playing video games anymore. Therefore, i am ready to give you the equivalent of my yearly video-game budget (roughly 200€) as an upfront payment and i am also ready to pay a monthly fee of 10€ for servicing. Hope it helps you in your business model estimation.
Hi,
If 3D Vision dies, i will probably stop playing video games anymore.
Therefore, i am ready to give you the equivalent of my yearly video-game budget (roughly 200€) as an upfront payment and i am also ready to pay a monthly fee of 10€ for servicing.
Hope it helps you in your business model estimation.

Posted 03/30/2019 06:49 PM   
Hi: maybe could be a way to instal new drivers but retain 3d driver controller from old driver?
Hi: maybe could be a way to instal new drivers but retain 3d driver controller from old driver?

Posted 03/31/2019 12:12 AM   
Thanks to everyone who responded about what proper pricing might entail. This all will help me and DarkStarSword make more informed decisions. (and maybe Helifax :-> You all know he could do this too if he wanted to. But I really think the problem is economic/business, not technology.) Next question along the same lines- What is your opinion of a monthly subscription fee? We would make clear that the reason it was sold this way was because we are not in control of the entire runtime, and need to be able to support games being broken by game updates, driver updates, and OS updates. Without long term support these will rust until broken, and we cannot justify indefinite support for a one-time fee. The other factor there is that a one-time fee only works if the market is growing. That's the idea behind the game market, where they can justify long term support because there are new gamers all the time. In the 3D world I think we can clearly see it's not growing. In the hypothetical world, where the only option is a DarkStarSword+Bo3b tool, would you be willing to pay for subscription? If so, what would be a fair price?
Thanks to everyone who responded about what proper pricing might entail. This all will help me and DarkStarSword make more informed decisions. (and maybe Helifax :-> You all know he could do this too if he wanted to. But I really think the problem is economic/business, not technology.)


Next question along the same lines- What is your opinion of a monthly subscription fee?

We would make clear that the reason it was sold this way was because we are not in control of the entire runtime, and need to be able to support games being broken by game updates, driver updates, and OS updates. Without long term support these will rust until broken, and we cannot justify indefinite support for a one-time fee.

The other factor there is that a one-time fee only works if the market is growing. That's the idea behind the game market, where they can justify long term support because there are new gamers all the time. In the 3D world I think we can clearly see it's not growing.


In the hypothetical world, where the only option is a DarkStarSword+Bo3b tool, would you be willing to pay for subscription? If so, what would be a fair price?

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Posted 03/31/2019 07:11 AM   
I’d support monthly subscription and I not even been using 3D vision lately.
I’d support monthly subscription and I not even been using 3D vision lately.

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Posted 03/31/2019 08:30 AM   
Even though I personally have a psychological aversion to subscriptions (don't have monthly pay for phone, TV, Netflix etc, just the mandatory water/gas/electricity) I would pay for a subscription for whatever you guys come up with to keep our hobby alive. I would basically accept any subscription price, if the alternative is to stop gaming altogether. And I have full confidence that you guys will make it fair. People are each different, so some might feel that paying around 10 USD for each fix, 50 USD for the wrapper/installer, and another 10-15 USD per month for the subscription would push them towards just dropping the hassle of 3D gaming (in the current context of games as service, lazy developers, less and less play-worthy games , etc). So I think before trying to gauge tolerance threshold for subscription fee it might help to flesh out the business model a bit. - Would the subscription cover everything? (wrapper, installer, fixes, service, forum replies in case of individual issues, etc) - Would the final product ensure that 3D gaming lives on, even in this context of hardware disappearing? (meaning, would there still be at least one hardware solution - my guess a VR device - in case monitors and projectors go the way of the dodo/TV) - Would there be a tiered subscription model, where some people might pay less in certain conditions (for example I invested in TV/monitor backup to hedge against industry stupidity. Would I get a different subscription product if I don't need the future-proof VR solution, ad least for a while) - Would your solution improve upon the 3-core bug, and generally be more efficient, or would it have more overhead and be sluggish? Exciting times, none the less, and I will support you anyway, in any shape this takes.
Even though I personally have a psychological aversion to subscriptions (don't have monthly pay for phone, TV, Netflix etc, just the mandatory water/gas/electricity) I would pay for a subscription for whatever you guys come up with to keep our hobby alive.
I would basically accept any subscription price, if the alternative is to stop gaming altogether.
And I have full confidence that you guys will make it fair.

People are each different, so some might feel that paying around 10 USD for each fix, 50 USD for the wrapper/installer, and another 10-15 USD per month for the subscription would push them towards just dropping the hassle of 3D gaming (in the current context of games as service, lazy developers, less and less play-worthy games , etc).
So I think before trying to gauge tolerance threshold for subscription fee it might help to flesh out the business model a bit.

- Would the subscription cover everything? (wrapper, installer, fixes, service, forum replies in case of individual issues, etc)
- Would the final product ensure that 3D gaming lives on, even in this context of hardware disappearing? (meaning, would there still be at least one hardware solution - my guess a VR device - in case monitors and projectors go the way of the dodo/TV)
- Would there be a tiered subscription model, where some people might pay less in certain conditions (for example I invested in TV/monitor backup to hedge against industry stupidity. Would I get a different subscription product if I don't need the future-proof VR solution, ad least for a while)
- Would your solution improve upon the 3-core bug, and generally be more efficient, or would it have more overhead and be sluggish?

Exciting times, none the less, and I will support you anyway, in any shape this takes.

Posted 03/31/2019 09:05 AM   
i would say like 100 euros purchase with a 3 dollar mothly fee or something. or alternatively you could pick the 9 dollar moth option. as the user base will slowly increase to a certain level and you need cash at the beginning i see this type of pricing more interesting than 9 euros/ month. Personally i thin even couple hundred for software to enable 3d vision to work perfect on a vr hmd is not too much if it´s a long lisence. I won´t be playing much anymore if there is no 3d. Or if it were on kickstarter ect. i could put in even a little more if it quarantees it will work with some more rare hmd´s also. Im talking about some more expensive hires units that come along. For example xtal ect. By the way xtal is making the gamer version, a premium for enthusiasts and i understood it´s not going to be priced mainstream and also not super expensive like the current xtal being almoust 6000 euros with tax/vat Maby you should contact them and work with them to release the software as a compatible with their hmd from the start. So the xtal gamer edidion would be a high fov. hires unit for gamers, movies watchers and for 3d gamers who grave for that hires monitor look in a vr headset.
i would say like 100 euros purchase with a 3 dollar mothly fee or something. or alternatively you could pick the 9 dollar moth option.
as the user base will slowly increase to a certain level and you need cash at the beginning i see this type of pricing more interesting than 9 euros/ month.

Personally i thin even couple hundred for software to enable 3d vision to work perfect on a vr hmd is not too much if it´s a long lisence. I won´t be playing much anymore if there is no 3d.
Or if it were on kickstarter ect. i could put in even a little more if it quarantees it will work with some more rare hmd´s also. Im talking about some more expensive hires units that come along.
For example xtal ect.

By the way xtal is making the gamer version, a premium for enthusiasts and i understood it´s not going to be priced mainstream and also not super expensive like the current xtal being almoust 6000 euros with tax/vat

Maby you should contact them and work with them to release the software as a compatible with their hmd from the start. So the xtal gamer edidion would be a high fov. hires unit for gamers, movies watchers and for 3d gamers who grave for that hires monitor look in a vr headset.

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Posted 03/31/2019 09:58 AM   
here's a possibility: 1- 50 dollars for 3d driver that works with all Helixmod games for starter. Or raise 50K initially. 2- Any new release game that needs fixing is 5 dollar. (and decreases as game price decreases, keeping it 10% of game price) 3- no monthly.
here's a possibility:
1- 50 dollars for 3d driver that works with all Helixmod games for starter. Or raise 50K initially.
2- Any new release game that needs fixing is 5 dollar. (and decreases as game price decreases, keeping it 10% of game price)
3- no monthly.

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i7 7700k 5GHz, RTX 2080, win10 pro
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Posted 04/01/2019 12:36 AM   
I'm good for whatever you guys decide. 20.00 a month would be fair,but I'd be fine with paying more. Guys think about how many hours we've spent enjoying 3D vision games.... It's actually really hard to quantify a price for that. I pay 15.00 a month for netflix but I value 3D gaming much more...
I'm good for whatever you guys decide.

20.00 a month would be fair,but I'd be fine with paying more.

Guys think about how many hours we've spent enjoying 3D vision games....

It's actually really hard to quantify a price for that.

I pay 15.00 a month for netflix but I value 3D gaming much more...

Posted 04/01/2019 03:58 AM   
No monthly subscription crap... Tool Software equivalent priced Adobe, Sony Vegas etc type pricing
No monthly subscription crap...

Tool Software equivalent priced Adobe, Sony Vegas etc type pricing

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Posted 04/01/2019 04:31 AM   
No need to worry any further, someone has just released an "Universal VR Driver" with a 3-D Vision bridge [u]for Free.[/u] Check it out [url=http://rjkole.com/UVR.zip]here[/url] : * ( link expires within the next 12 hours )
No need to worry any further, someone has just released an "Universal VR Driver" with a 3-D Vision bridge for Free. Check it out here : * ( link expires within the next 12 hours )

Posted 04/01/2019 07:11 AM   
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