What is the future for Project Flugan
It has already been 5 months since I started coding with very Little experience in this particular area. I still a noob at shaders. My approach is unique but not necesarry the best. In my limited experience using only my own machine it can run inside far more games than 3Dmigoto. At the same time minute changes will often break it making it fragile. At the moment it's collecting dust. I'm lacking the focus of what to fix and the motivation to do the hard and tedious work. Finally it is hooking DX11 instead of wrapping it which in the end can make it worthless as a worst case. Not all approaches to a problem will solve the problem.
It has already been 5 months since I started coding with very Little experience in this particular area.

I still a noob at shaders.

My approach is unique but not necesarry the best.

In my limited experience using only my own machine it can run inside far more games than 3Dmigoto.
At the same time minute changes will often break it making it fragile.

At the moment it's collecting dust. I'm lacking the focus of what to fix and the motivation to do the hard and tedious work.

Finally it is hooking DX11 instead of wrapping it which in the end can make it worthless as a worst case. Not all approaches to a problem will solve the problem.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#1
Posted 05/15/2014 09:16 PM   
If you want to do something productive, I suggest trying to help bo3b and mike with 3dmigoto. They're making serious progress, and I'm sure your skills would he helpful. It doesn't seem like there's much point in writing a wrapper when you don't know how to fix shaders to go with it, especially when there's already a wrapper that's quite well developed.
If you want to do something productive, I suggest trying to help bo3b and mike with 3dmigoto. They're making serious progress, and I'm sure your skills would he helpful. It doesn't seem like there's much point in writing a wrapper when you don't know how to fix shaders to go with it, especially when there's already a wrapper that's quite well developed.

#2
Posted 05/16/2014 10:33 AM   
Flugan If you have a logical enough mind to program what you have programmed with Project Fluggan, surely you must be able to learn how to fix shaders. It might be a different skill set but I am sure a man of your calibre can do it! Bo3b and mike_ar69 are pretty cool guys and seem to want more people to learn how to fix games using 3dmigoto; they are also clearly wanting to help people do this. If I was in your shoes (wanting to make some cash) I would suss out fixing games using 3dmigoto. This is what I would do: Learn 3dmigoto, with help; Prove you can fix a couple of games by releasing a couple of fixes - back catalogue is fine. and then: Collude with the guys to see if you could fix a new AAA. (They'd prolly still be a source of help.) Release it by the usual methods. If the game's AAA enough, I would argue this is the best way to get people grateful enough to want your PayPal details. I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive but I wouldn't pursue Project Fluggan; there just isn't a need for it now. Put your energies into learning to fix games with 3dmitogo. :) All the best mate!!!
Flugan

If you have a logical enough mind to program what you have programmed with Project Fluggan, surely you must be able to learn how to fix shaders. It might be a different skill set but I am sure a man of your calibre can do it! Bo3b and mike_ar69 are pretty cool guys and seem to want more people to learn how to fix games using 3dmigoto; they are also clearly wanting to help people do this.

If I was in your shoes (wanting to make some cash) I would suss out fixing games using 3dmigoto.

This is what I would do:
Learn 3dmigoto, with help;
Prove you can fix a couple of games by releasing a couple of fixes - back catalogue is fine.

and then:
Collude with the guys to see if you could fix a new AAA. (They'd prolly still be a source of help.)
Release it by the usual methods.

If the game's AAA enough, I would argue this is the best way to get people grateful enough to want your PayPal details.

I hope this doesn't sound too insensitive but I wouldn't pursue Project Fluggan; there just isn't a need for it now. Put your energies into learning to fix games with 3dmitogo. :)

All the best mate!!!

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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#3
Posted 05/16/2014 01:26 PM   
I agree that right now 3dmigoto has proven to be a really stable and successful way to fix dx11 games, so it would be better that fixers should work together under a single wrapper to make it as good as possible. I'm sorry since you did a fantastic job trying to create a wrapper, but open source 3dmigoto surprised us all and right now it seems the way to go, since it has proven rather popular among other fixers. In the end, we all want games working in 3d and 3dmigoto seems the best way to go now. Also I think most people would gladly donate (myself included) if you release fixes for high profile games like the incoming Wolfstein or Watch Dogs for example.
I agree that right now 3dmigoto has proven to be a really stable and successful way to fix dx11 games, so it would be better that fixers should work together under a single wrapper to make it as good as possible. I'm sorry since you did a fantastic job trying to create a wrapper, but open source 3dmigoto surprised us all and right now it seems the way to go, since it has proven rather popular among other fixers.

In the end, we all want games working in 3d and 3dmigoto seems the best way to go now. Also I think most people would gladly donate (myself included) if you release fixes for high profile games like the incoming Wolfstein or Watch Dogs for example.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#4
Posted 05/16/2014 03:21 PM   
Spent some time today in Arma 3 using my wrapper as in my experience 3Dmigoto does not load that game. Thought it would be interesting if I could use it to solve games that will not load in 3Dmigoto for a long time. The end result is that I lack the plumbing at this point to fix the game and the timeline is vague or not possible to achieve. Interesting prospect though. If more people are intrested outside the mainline of 3Dmigoto attacking "rare" games it could revive the project.
Spent some time today in Arma 3 using my wrapper as in my experience 3Dmigoto does not load that game. Thought it would be interesting if I could use it to solve games that will not load in 3Dmigoto for a long time.

The end result is that I lack the plumbing at this point to fix the game and the timeline is vague or not possible to achieve. Interesting prospect though. If more people are intrested outside the mainline of 3Dmigoto attacking "rare" games it could revive the project.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#5
Posted 05/16/2014 08:57 PM   
Without a purpose the Project is dead. There must be a few games that will never be fixed unless something happens.
Without a purpose the Project is dead. There must be a few games that will never be fixed unless something happens.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#6
Posted 05/16/2014 09:00 PM   
Well, I'll step in with a slightly different take. I think that working on 3Dmigoto would be good. In fact, since it's open-source, really anyone with coding skill and motivation is welcome to help out. Not gonna lie though, it's a hard code base to understand. On the other hand, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, and I did it. Slightly better I think would be to work on fixing a couple of games. It doesn't have to be high profile games, and even using Helix wrapper is not out of the question. Simple fixes, disable shaders, move skybox. This would provide a deeper background on how games work, and fill in some knowledge gaps on how a wrapper works that would be invaluable. As an example I use 3Dmigoto to fix small stuff like the stars, because it also helps me to understand how to improve it for the real fixers. I'm the tool maker, not a fixer. I don't think you need to be expert like Helix or Mike at fixing stuff to be able to make the tool- but it [i]really [/i]helps to understand how to make a fix. It's my personal opinion, as I said privately, and will now say publicly, that you should concentrate on a new wrapper that has different characteristics than either Helix or 3Dmigoto. Please allow me to explain. Even Helix's wrapper does not run on all games, and there are thus some games and some fixes that are out of reach. 3Dmigoto is going to be the same way I think. As noted Arma 3 does not seem to run well with 3Dmigoto. There is room for a 3rd wrapper, that is not necessarily duplicate effort. Working specifically to support 64 bit games is not unreasonable. Some tools are better for some jobs, it's just not clear which way is best. Too many variables. I think that you should delete your hooking technique of using the vtables as a failed experiment. It's not proven to be reliable and ruins a primary characteristic of being simple, with minimal hooking. You should use either Detours or EasyHook, both of which have been proven to be completely reliable and are clearly the technique supported by Microsoft. Your Assembler has value, the other pieces do not. You need to get your wrapper working well enough so that you can make your Assembler a viable tool. You need enough features to make a complete fix. In its current state Project Flugan is not usable. Dumping all shaders and reassembling them is a great start, but it's not enough on it's own. As a tool maker, you need to make the tool for the fixers, not for yourself. This is my overriding concern with 3Dmigoto- whatever Mike wants is what I work on. Here are some details Mike shared as must haves when I started working on 3Dmigoto: [i]- full decompile so all the asm shaders are there (all of them) - full 'reload and compile' of all shaders so the 'roundtrip' is verified with no fixes - full access to the stereo params (and you or Flugan tell me how to access it in an asm shader) - ability to step through shaders and save selected ones (I think that is there already, not sure if it works properly?) - ability to dynamically load modified shaders on the fly in game (like with Helix dll, pressing F10) because this would be really hard and time consuming otherwise[/i] You have the first three stages. Next stage is shader hunting which seems to be where you have stalled out. This is not that complicated if you are using EasyHook. You need to patch VSSetShader, and PSSetShader and skip the call when it's the right time to 'blank' a shader. 3Dmigoto code already shows a way to do this, which you can copy/use, and I can help here with pointers. So, that is a good strategy in my humble opinion. But, I will emphasize again that you have to decide, then [i]concentrate[/i]. Testing a lot of different games is good for gathering background information, and helping you to decide. It's not a good way to actually get results however. And this is perhaps where I'm a bit of a hard-ass, but I'm really results oriented. I actually don't care how hard it is, or how long it took, or how much work it was- I want results. I spent a long time when I was younger working really hard on stuff that went nowhere, and now it's all about the results for me. I'll go further and say that I personally do not agree with the thread that "hard work deserves a fair reward". Hard work that leads nowhere is a waste of time, and should not be rewarded. Hard work should be praised, but results should be rewarded. 3Dmigoto is pretty much still limping along. I could have spent 6 months fixing all the Decompiler bugs to make it complete. Every new game I try it against has some new flaw (e.g. SR4 didn't allow shader hunting) But as we've demonstrated, that just doesn't matter. Sure there are bugs, sure it generates bad code half the time. So what? The bugs and flaws there don't stop it from being useful. As long as we have workarounds and can make progress, that's what counts. Mike is the guy making the actual fixes, and as long as he is not stuck, we're golden. So, lastly, my advice is this: 1) Pick a simpler game that probably won't get any attention soon, DeuxEx HR would be my pick for something that can be dramatically improved without heroics. Fix one effect in there, using the current tools. Helix runs here, I'd use that. Fix the skybox in Detroit. The reason to do this work is to gather more background so you can make an informed opinion on: 2) Decide your path. Take all you know into account. You can ask our opinion like now, but really this has to come from within. I'd emphasize thinking hard about where you can get results. 3) Drive it all the way. Commit. Pick a game, pick an effect that is flawed that should be fixable. Probably not something that is changing dramatically like Titanfall, but maybe. Arma 3 or World of Tanks is perhaps a better choice. High profile, much wanted fixes on my wishlist. http://lists.bo3b.net/wish/ Take that game and focus upon the fix, using that desired end result as the way to drive decisions and coding. This is the technique I suggested before, and is the technique I used with 3Dmigoto. We chose AC3, because we thought we had a prayer of fixing it, and I focused upon the one game and the one effect to drive development. I hope that there is no argument that this is a successful strategy. Don't get distracted or question your path. Once you commit, it's time to focus and complete the task. It's your call, but that's what I think the future of Project Flugan should be.
Well, I'll step in with a slightly different take.

I think that working on 3Dmigoto would be good. In fact, since it's open-source, really anyone with coding skill and motivation is welcome to help out. Not gonna lie though, it's a hard code base to understand. On the other hand, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, and I did it.


Slightly better I think would be to work on fixing a couple of games. It doesn't have to be high profile games, and even using Helix wrapper is not out of the question. Simple fixes, disable shaders, move skybox. This would provide a deeper background on how games work, and fill in some knowledge gaps on how a wrapper works that would be invaluable.

As an example I use 3Dmigoto to fix small stuff like the stars, because it also helps me to understand how to improve it for the real fixers. I'm the tool maker, not a fixer. I don't think you need to be expert like Helix or Mike at fixing stuff to be able to make the tool- but it really helps to understand how to make a fix.


It's my personal opinion, as I said privately, and will now say publicly, that you should concentrate on a new wrapper that has different characteristics than either Helix or 3Dmigoto. Please allow me to explain.

Even Helix's wrapper does not run on all games, and there are thus some games and some fixes that are out of reach. 3Dmigoto is going to be the same way I think. As noted Arma 3 does not seem to run well with 3Dmigoto. There is room for a 3rd wrapper, that is not necessarily duplicate effort. Working specifically to support 64 bit games is not unreasonable. Some tools are better for some jobs, it's just not clear which way is best. Too many variables.

I think that you should delete your hooking technique of using the vtables as a failed experiment. It's not proven to be reliable and ruins a primary characteristic of being simple, with minimal hooking. You should use either Detours or EasyHook, both of which have been proven to be completely reliable and are clearly the technique supported by Microsoft. Your Assembler has value, the other pieces do not. You need to get your wrapper working well enough so that you can make your Assembler a viable tool.

You need enough features to make a complete fix. In its current state Project Flugan is not usable. Dumping all shaders and reassembling them is a great start, but it's not enough on it's own. As a tool maker, you need to make the tool for the fixers, not for yourself. This is my overriding concern with 3Dmigoto- whatever Mike wants is what I work on.

Here are some details Mike shared as must haves when I started working on 3Dmigoto:
- full decompile so all the asm shaders are there (all of them)
- full 'reload and compile' of all shaders so the 'roundtrip' is verified with no fixes
- full access to the stereo params (and you or Flugan tell me how to access it in an asm shader)
- ability to step through shaders and save selected ones (I think that is there already, not sure if it works properly?)
- ability to dynamically load modified shaders on the fly in game (like with Helix dll, pressing F10) because this would be really hard and time consuming otherwise


You have the first three stages. Next stage is shader hunting which seems to be where you have stalled out. This is not that complicated if you are using EasyHook. You need to patch VSSetShader, and PSSetShader and skip the call when it's the right time to 'blank' a shader. 3Dmigoto code already shows a way to do this, which you can copy/use, and I can help here with pointers.


So, that is a good strategy in my humble opinion. But, I will emphasize again that you have to decide, then concentrate. Testing a lot of different games is good for gathering background information, and helping you to decide. It's not a good way to actually get results however.

And this is perhaps where I'm a bit of a hard-ass, but I'm really results oriented. I actually don't care how hard it is, or how long it took, or how much work it was- I want results. I spent a long time when I was younger working really hard on stuff that went nowhere, and now it's all about the results for me. I'll go further and say that I personally do not agree with the thread that "hard work deserves a fair reward". Hard work that leads nowhere is a waste of time, and should not be rewarded. Hard work should be praised, but results should be rewarded.

3Dmigoto is pretty much still limping along. I could have spent 6 months fixing all the Decompiler bugs to make it complete. Every new game I try it against has some new flaw (e.g. SR4 didn't allow shader hunting) But as we've demonstrated, that just doesn't matter. Sure there are bugs, sure it generates bad code half the time. So what? The bugs and flaws there don't stop it from being useful. As long as we have workarounds and can make progress, that's what counts.

Mike is the guy making the actual fixes, and as long as he is not stuck, we're golden.


So, lastly, my advice is this:

1) Pick a simpler game that probably won't get any attention soon, DeuxEx HR would be my pick for something that can be dramatically improved without heroics. Fix one effect in there, using the current tools. Helix runs here, I'd use that. Fix the skybox in Detroit.

The reason to do this work is to gather more background so you can make an informed opinion on:

2) Decide your path. Take all you know into account. You can ask our opinion like now, but really this has to come from within. I'd emphasize thinking hard about where you can get results.

3) Drive it all the way. Commit. Pick a game, pick an effect that is flawed that should be fixable. Probably not something that is changing dramatically like Titanfall, but maybe. Arma 3 or World of Tanks is perhaps a better choice. High profile, much wanted fixes on my wishlist. http://lists.bo3b.net/wish/


Take that game and focus upon the fix, using that desired end result as the way to drive decisions and coding. This is the technique I suggested before, and is the technique I used with 3Dmigoto. We chose AC3, because we thought we had a prayer of fixing it, and I focused upon the one game and the one effect to drive development. I hope that there is no argument that this is a successful strategy.

Don't get distracted or question your path. Once you commit, it's time to focus and complete the task.


It's your call, but that's what I think the future of Project Flugan should be.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#7
Posted 05/17/2014 03:47 AM   
Thank you.
Thank you.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#8
Posted 05/17/2014 08:32 AM   
Excellent post, bob. I won't pretend to understand the technical stuff, but the opinions you shared about general workflow ring very true to my experience. Flugan, if I were you, I'd be cautious about not falling into the trap of starting everything and finishing nothing. It's a common trap, and we all do it. I'd estimate that the ratio of unfinished projects to finished projects in my life is about 3:1. Though I'm getting better at it. Starting things is easy, and it can be a rush. Finishing is a different story. As bob pointed out, it can be a hard slog, and it can require a lot of commitment and self-discipline. Anziety, laziness, perfectionism, ego and unrealistic ambitions all have to be discarded, as they all get in the way. They'll either cause you to spin your wheels and go nowhere, or else burn out before your destination. As bob said, results are all that matter. But this is doubly true for you, since you want to make some sort of income from this (and I really hope you do!). People will only ever cough up money if they either (a) see results, or (b) see hard evidence that results will eventually come.
Excellent post, bob. I won't pretend to understand the technical stuff, but the opinions you shared about general workflow ring very true to my experience.

Flugan, if I were you, I'd be cautious about not falling into the trap of starting everything and finishing nothing. It's a common trap, and we all do it. I'd estimate that the ratio of unfinished projects to finished projects in my life is about 3:1. Though I'm getting better at it.

Starting things is easy, and it can be a rush. Finishing is a different story. As bob pointed out, it can be a hard slog, and it can require a lot of commitment and self-discipline. Anziety, laziness, perfectionism, ego and unrealistic ambitions all have to be discarded, as they all get in the way. They'll either cause you to spin your wheels and go nowhere, or else burn out before your destination.

As bob said, results are all that matter. But this is doubly true for you, since you want to make some sort of income from this (and I really hope you do!). People will only ever cough up money if they either (a) see results, or (b) see hard evidence that results will eventually come.

ImageVolnaPC.com - Tips, tweaks, performance comparisons (PhysX card, SLI scaling, etc)

#9
Posted 05/17/2014 09:18 AM   
I consider myself more of a collector than gamer which means I've not finished a single 3D game since I started using 3D Vision early 2011. The complete lack on development on DX11 caused me to start my Project as a huge challenge. I never intended to fight against Chiri or Helix and the end result is not a big suprise. The project was started on a false premise and was a failure from day 1. Am I sad, yeah a bit. Is 3D Vision healthy, definitelly. Do I have a personal desire to fix anything, not at all right now. Currently figuring out 2D Surround. Even though Bo3b's done all the work I have enjoyed our conversations.
I consider myself more of a collector than gamer which means I've not finished a single 3D game since I started using 3D Vision early 2011.

The complete lack on development on DX11 caused me to start my Project as a huge challenge.

I never intended to fight against Chiri or Helix and the end result is not a big suprise.

The project was started on a false premise and was a failure from day 1.
Am I sad, yeah a bit.
Is 3D Vision healthy, definitelly.
Do I have a personal desire to fix anything, not at all right now.
Currently figuring out 2D Surround.
Even though Bo3b's done all the work I have enjoyed our conversations.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#10
Posted 05/17/2014 04:22 PM   
Why not take bo3b's advice?
Why not take bo3b's advice?

#11
Posted 05/17/2014 05:42 PM   
The stakes are too high with my Medical condition. I can't afford to take a do or die decision over something like this.
The stakes are too high with my Medical condition.

I can't afford to take a do or die decision over something like this.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#12
Posted 05/17/2014 05:49 PM   
It doesn't seem like a "do or die" decision to me. It's fixing a low-demand game in order to learn. But hey, your choice.
It doesn't seem like a "do or die" decision to me. It's fixing a low-demand game in order to learn.

But hey, your choice.

#13
Posted 05/17/2014 06:39 PM   
Yes, sorry if that seems like too much pressure. It really all has to be for fun. If you enjoy solving puzzles and learning new stuff, there is nothing more satisfying than playing with game fixes, even if you can't fix them. I've only been able to make two modest fixes out of the 10 that I tried, but I love learning new stuff.
Yes, sorry if that seems like too much pressure. It really all has to be for fun.

If you enjoy solving puzzles and learning new stuff, there is nothing more satisfying than playing with game fixes, even if you can't fix them. I've only been able to make two modest fixes out of the 10 that I tried, but I love learning new stuff.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#14
Posted 05/18/2014 01:05 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]I consider myself more of a collector than gamer which means I've not finished a single 3D game since I started using 3D Vision early 2011. [/quote] Ah. My name for that is "hoarder disorder" ;-D If you can't finish a game then you probably can't finish a wrapper. Sounds like you enjoy the journey more than the destination. But I'm not sure how you expect people to donate to you if you don't actually intend on contributing anything of value. What you're asking for is not reward, but charity. Which is perfectly fine, but let's call a spade a spade.
Flugan said:I consider myself more of a collector than gamer which means I've not finished a single 3D game since I started using 3D Vision early 2011.


Ah. My name for that is "hoarder disorder" ;-D

If you can't finish a game then you probably can't finish a wrapper. Sounds like you enjoy the journey more than the destination.

But I'm not sure how you expect people to donate to you if you don't actually intend on contributing anything of value. What you're asking for is not reward, but charity. Which is perfectly fine, but let's call a spade a spade.

ImageVolnaPC.com - Tips, tweaks, performance comparisons (PhysX card, SLI scaling, etc)

#15
Posted 05/18/2014 02:00 AM   
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