3D Vision CPU Bottelneck: Gathering Information thread.
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Again with the hostilities... The community has respect for you here; don't let that go to waste, please, for your own sake.
[quote="helifax"]
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose". [/quote]
I am really surprised and disappointed in you mate. Yet another one of your claims is false...
Your GPU is fully saturated at 99% and only giving 173fps - it's not running free as you claim. If it was running free at <90% usage, it would be giving 200 fps as I have said. To achieve this, you need to lower your resolution and graphics settings ಠ_ಠ
You are contradicting your own screenshots and results mate :)
For the record,
[quote="helifax"]GPUs not even kicking the P2 state lol (as is not needed)[/quote]
No, you are wrong. MSI Afterburner OSD is misreporting your clock (and your memory usage, 4194 GB of VRAM, really?) because you didn't restart it after disabling / enabling your SLi. If you don't believe me, rerun that test with MSI Afterburner working properly and you will see your Clocks at normal levels as well as the GPU being saturated. [img]http://www.animateit.net/data/media/smiley712/smiley-rolleyes008.gif[/img]
[img]https://s14.postimg.org/8b0ovzzm9/n2gs4y2h_dfw.jpg[/img]
Again with the hostilities... The community has respect for you here; don't let that go to waste, please, for your own sake.
helifax said:
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose".
I am really surprised and disappointed in you mate. Yet another one of your claims is false...
Your GPU is fully saturated at 99% and only giving 173fps - it's not running free as you claim. If it was running free at <90% usage, it would be giving 200 fps as I have said. To achieve this, you need to lower your resolution and graphics settings ಠ_ಠ
You are contradicting your own screenshots and results mate :)
For the record,
helifax said:GPUs not even kicking the P2 state lol (as is not needed)
No, you are wrong. MSI Afterburner OSD is misreporting your clock (and your memory usage, 4194 GB of VRAM, really?) because you didn't restart it after disabling / enabling your SLi. If you don't believe me, rerun that test with MSI Afterburner working properly and you will see your Clocks at normal levels as well as the GPU being saturated.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"][quote="helifax"][quote]
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose". [/quote]
Your GPU is 99% and only giving 173fps - it's not running free as you claim. If it was running free at <90% usage, it would be giving 200 as I have said.
You are contradicting your own results mate :)
[/quote]
[/quote]
Dude, for your own Records (since you clearly don't understand it) A Graphics Computing Unit (GPU) is meant to run in parallel. If you don't put artificial caps (VSYNC, FPS/Voltage,etc. limiters) it is BY DESIGN that it will RUN at FULL LOAD.
This doesn't mean it is SWAMPED... I see you LACK some basic concepts on how a GPU differs from a CPU...
A CPU is swamped IF it works at 100%
A GPU working at 99% it means the CPU can "feed it" (giving the vertex, normals, textures, ETC) information and the GPU can work at it's pace. THIS IS NORMAL AND EXPECTED BEHAVIOR.
A swamped GPU is a GPU on which the LOAD IS ALL OVER THE PLACE 60, 80, 55, 100, 33, etc in short intervals of time (1-2 seconds), as the parallel computing units cannot keep up with the CPU feeding it data. Again, there is a REASON THINGS ARE SYNCHRONIZED. A GPU working at 99% will always tell the CPU TO WAIT until it is ready, however this is not always the case. (All those pre-rendered frames numbers you see in NVPanel are there for a reason related to this.)
A CPU can also tell the GPU to wait for the new data (when the CPU) is ready and thus will give you a lower GPU usage. But, THIS IS NOT A CPU OR GPU BOTTLENECK mate. THIS IS BY DESIGN and all GPUS worked like this since creation.
Under 3D Vision, it's the same. Except for the tests some people showed, where bot CPU and GPU were lower than what they should be. And please don't give me the GTA5 example. If you want, I can make any game freaking crawl with 5 FPS and CPU & GPU usage running at 10% (more or less what everyone sees there)... Does this prove is a bug in the driver? NOPE.
Again, do some reading on the Client (CPU) - Server (GPU) rendering pipeline and understand how things work.
Then you will see there is no bug and what I showed is actually optimal behavior! There is something strange with Pascal & 3D Vision though... Sigh
For the record:
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage... Which again this proves the renderer pipeline is synchronized with the time. (Use Cheat engine and modify the time scale - aka Speed hack, and you will see how your FPS will either decrease or increased based on that).
Again, I might not know "much" about CPUs and GPUs are made (hardware-wise) but I can tell you very well that I DO know how they work from the software point of view, so please don't insult me with phrases like that in the future. Much appreciated.
Don't know why I keep posting here... (Where the hell is the account delete button...)
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose".
Your GPU is 99% and only giving 173fps - it's not running free as you claim. If it was running free at <90% usage, it would be giving 200 as I have said.
You are contradicting your own results mate :)
Dude, for your own Records (since you clearly don't understand it) A Graphics Computing Unit (GPU) is meant to run in parallel. If you don't put artificial caps (VSYNC, FPS/Voltage,etc. limiters) it is BY DESIGN that it will RUN at FULL LOAD.
This doesn't mean it is SWAMPED... I see you LACK some basic concepts on how a GPU differs from a CPU...
A CPU is swamped IF it works at 100%
A GPU working at 99% it means the CPU can "feed it" (giving the vertex, normals, textures, ETC) information and the GPU can work at it's pace. THIS IS NORMAL AND EXPECTED BEHAVIOR.
A swamped GPU is a GPU on which the LOAD IS ALL OVER THE PLACE 60, 80, 55, 100, 33, etc in short intervals of time (1-2 seconds), as the parallel computing units cannot keep up with the CPU feeding it data. Again, there is a REASON THINGS ARE SYNCHRONIZED. A GPU working at 99% will always tell the CPU TO WAIT until it is ready, however this is not always the case. (All those pre-rendered frames numbers you see in NVPanel are there for a reason related to this.)
A CPU can also tell the GPU to wait for the new data (when the CPU) is ready and thus will give you a lower GPU usage. But, THIS IS NOT A CPU OR GPU BOTTLENECK mate. THIS IS BY DESIGN and all GPUS worked like this since creation.
Under 3D Vision, it's the same. Except for the tests some people showed, where bot CPU and GPU were lower than what they should be. And please don't give me the GTA5 example. If you want, I can make any game freaking crawl with 5 FPS and CPU & GPU usage running at 10% (more or less what everyone sees there)... Does this prove is a bug in the driver? NOPE.
Again, do some reading on the Client (CPU) - Server (GPU) rendering pipeline and understand how things work.
Then you will see there is no bug and what I showed is actually optimal behavior! There is something strange with Pascal & 3D Vision though... Sigh
For the record:
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage... Which again this proves the renderer pipeline is synchronized with the time. (Use Cheat engine and modify the time scale - aka Speed hack, and you will see how your FPS will either decrease or increased based on that).
Again, I might not know "much" about CPUs and GPUs are made (hardware-wise) but I can tell you very well that I DO know how they work from the software point of view, so please don't insult me with phrases like that in the future. Much appreciated.
Don't know why I keep posting here... (Where the hell is the account delete button...)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="helifax"]
A swamped GPU is a GPU on which the LOAD IS ALL OVER THE PLACE 60, 80, 55, 100, 33, etc[/quote]
This is BS mate. Play any game which requires a hefty GPU, and it will STAY at 95-99% constantly.
Why don't you load up Heaven benchmark, or any other GPU benchmark. Better yet, MSI Kombustor which comes pre-packaged with MSI Afterburner and see the GPU load stay constant at 95-99% usage yourself.
Another claim bites the dust huh?
[quote="helifax"]If you want I can make any game freaking crawl with 5 FPS and CPU & GPU usage running at 10%[/quote]
I'm quite interested in this. Please show me a well multi-threaded game with these results where no artificial caps such as vsync or frame caps are set. I would honestly love to see it.
[quote="helifax"]
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage[/quote]
Well, of course it does, I said it would in this very thread in my previous posts; and I quote:
[quote="RAGEdemon"]
In fact, OC your CPU to 5GHz and take the same test. I will bet that your 133 FPS will be a lot higher. This is also why we know that it's a CPU bottleneck issue, because the FPS and GPU usage will scale up as you increase the CPU clock.[/quote]
and
[quote="RAGEdemon"]
(Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will increase/decrease linearly with the CPU clock speed!)[/quote]
and
[quote="RAGEdemon"]
(Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will NOT CHANGE, because the CPU is sitting idle half the time already!, However, the CPU USAGE will show a change in average usage because the game threads are being processed in more or less CPU time due to the overclock / underclock!)[/quote]
Also, I must thank you for derailing this results thread, even after multiple requests by me to move this kind of discussion to the other bottleneck thread.
You are just embarrassing yourself now mate, and I hate seeing you like this :(
As I have said in my previous posts, I'm the stupid guy and I don't think I'm smart. I have also pointed out that you are smart and clever on many of my posts in this thread and other threads. I usually sing praises about you, bo3b, etc on a lot of posts I make.
If you want to delete your account, I will be greatly saddened, as will others in the community. But, if you feel that's what you want to do, then please go ahead. You will be greatly missed. All I can say for myself and the community is please don't go.
helifax said:
A swamped GPU is a GPU on which the LOAD IS ALL OVER THE PLACE 60, 80, 55, 100, 33, etc
This is BS mate. Play any game which requires a hefty GPU, and it will STAY at 95-99% constantly.
Why don't you load up Heaven benchmark, or any other GPU benchmark. Better yet, MSI Kombustor which comes pre-packaged with MSI Afterburner and see the GPU load stay constant at 95-99% usage yourself.
Another claim bites the dust huh?
helifax said:If you want I can make any game freaking crawl with 5 FPS and CPU & GPU usage running at 10%
I'm quite interested in this. Please show me a well multi-threaded game with these results where no artificial caps such as vsync or frame caps are set. I would honestly love to see it.
helifax said:
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage
Well, of course it does, I said it would in this very thread in my previous posts; and I quote:
RAGEdemon said:
In fact, OC your CPU to 5GHz and take the same test. I will bet that your 133 FPS will be a lot higher. This is also why we know that it's a CPU bottleneck issue, because the FPS and GPU usage will scale up as you increase the CPU clock.
and
RAGEdemon said:
(Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will increase/decrease linearly with the CPU clock speed!)
and
RAGEdemon said:
(Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will NOT CHANGE, because the CPU is sitting idle half the time already!, However, the CPU USAGE will show a change in average usage because the game threads are being processed in more or less CPU time due to the overclock / underclock!)
Also, I must thank you for derailing this results thread, even after multiple requests by me to move this kind of discussion to the other bottleneck thread.
You are just embarrassing yourself now mate, and I hate seeing you like this :(
As I have said in my previous posts, I'm the stupid guy and I don't think I'm smart. I have also pointed out that you are smart and clever on many of my posts in this thread and other threads. I usually sing praises about you, bo3b, etc on a lot of posts I make.
If you want to delete your account, I will be greatly saddened, as will others in the community. But, if you feel that's what you want to do, then please go ahead. You will be greatly missed. All I can say for myself and the community is please don't go.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Good that you are soo good and know everything.
I'll close my account now. It seems you know everything and have everything solved, so no need for me to stick around and "prove a fool" as you clearly stated it numerous times! THANK YOU VERY MUCH friend.
(I think I'll also delete all my thread while at it... cause who would want to listen to a fool anyway.. They have you now! )
I'll let you do all the future coding and whatever.
I am sick of people "knowing" everything when in fact they know shit. You just like to use my words and turn them up-side-down to show your faulty argument.
Hope you really get what you want:) Cause I really got what I wanted now... The extra reason to leave this place:) Really nice going mate:)
Anywho...
See you in 10 years from now IF and WHEN the next 3D Vision will appear. If not... ADIOS!
EDIT: I will remove any fix from my website. I will see if I will keep the website on or off in the future.
Good that you are soo good and know everything.
I'll close my account now. It seems you know everything and have everything solved, so no need for me to stick around and "prove a fool" as you clearly stated it numerous times! THANK YOU VERY MUCH friend.
(I think I'll also delete all my thread while at it... cause who would want to listen to a fool anyway.. They have you now! )
I'll let you do all the future coding and whatever.
I am sick of people "knowing" everything when in fact they know shit. You just like to use my words and turn them up-side-down to show your faulty argument.
Hope you really get what you want:) Cause I really got what I wanted now... The extra reason to leave this place:) Really nice going mate:)
Anywho...
See you in 10 years from now IF and WHEN the next 3D Vision will appear. If not... ADIOS!
EDIT: I will remove any fix from my website. I will see if I will keep the website on or off in the future.
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Wow this has gotten quite ridiculous. I just want to get an issue fixed not start a war. I am truly trying to understand why I started to have stutter issues in games that were fine on my 660ti. What RAGE said seemed to make sense with my limited knowledge and I did get "caught up" as it seemed to be correct.
However, what helifax says also make logical sense as well. Since I am neither a software designer or hardware designer I really do not know what to make of all this. Right now I am only going to present Nvidia with what I have sent them (it was enough to get a Level 2 support tech involved) and let them TELL ME what is going on. I have my suspicions, but I will refrain from making definitive statements about things I do not understand.
This is not me begging, but helifax I would recommend you reconsider as you seem to be making a decision out of pure emotion and passion, that while good can at times lead to making a rash decision.
RAGEdemon, back off. Present your data...make your case..., but tone it down.
Remember guys it takes two to tango, and this is about Video Games and really not that important.
I appreciate the support you have given my stutter issue, but the more you go on with helifax the more I need to unhitch my horse from your wagon and go it alone with my ticket to Nvidia for the time being. I DO NOT need this drama bleeding into my support ticket to possibly derail any progress I have made with them so far.
Wow this has gotten quite ridiculous. I just want to get an issue fixed not start a war. I am truly trying to understand why I started to have stutter issues in games that were fine on my 660ti. What RAGE said seemed to make sense with my limited knowledge and I did get "caught up" as it seemed to be correct.
However, what helifax says also make logical sense as well. Since I am neither a software designer or hardware designer I really do not know what to make of all this. Right now I am only going to present Nvidia with what I have sent them (it was enough to get a Level 2 support tech involved) and let them TELL ME what is going on. I have my suspicions, but I will refrain from making definitive statements about things I do not understand.
This is not me begging, but helifax I would recommend you reconsider as you seem to be making a decision out of pure emotion and passion, that while good can at times lead to making a rash decision.
RAGEdemon, back off. Present your data...make your case..., but tone it down.
Remember guys it takes two to tango, and this is about Video Games and really not that important.
I appreciate the support you have given my stutter issue, but the more you go on with helifax the more I need to unhitch my horse from your wagon and go it alone with my ticket to Nvidia for the time being. I DO NOT need this drama bleeding into my support ticket to possibly derail any progress I have made with them so far.
I am sorry you feel that way helifax.
For what it's worth, In my post a few pages back, I still stick by what I said:
[quote="RAGEdemon"]I'm speaking to everyone here as I would like to preface the rest of my posts with something. I see that a lot of people have egos on the internet. This isn't the place for them. This is a place to learn from each other, not compare who knows what, or who is right and who is wrong. In that regard, I will lay my ego bare: I am a stupid guy who knows nothing. I don't think I'm smart, or that I am right. I only seek the truth. I hope to learn from everyone, and I hope we can all learn from each other. I am completely open to the possibility that I am wrong. Good, I hope I am![/quote]
For what it's worth, In my post a few pages back, I still stick by what I said:
RAGEdemon said:I'm speaking to everyone here as I would like to preface the rest of my posts with something. I see that a lot of people have egos on the internet. This isn't the place for them. This is a place to learn from each other, not compare who knows what, or who is right and who is wrong. In that regard, I will lay my ego bare: I am a stupid guy who knows nothing. I don't think I'm smart, or that I am right. I only seek the truth. I hope to learn from everyone, and I hope we can all learn from each other. I am completely open to the possibility that I am wrong. Good, I hope I am!
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
@terintamel:
Perfectly understandable. No problem there. And is actually better if you don't put anyone else in your Ticket.
And also, don't involve the Rage-demon guy as what he explains is not real. (I also wish the moon is green, but is not as a solid fact).
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick mate (Well not really:)) Maybe I am the dick for saying it ^_^). You just happen to fill in the "glass" in the last days with your constant "I am right, you are wrong" approach. What? Are you a layer or something? Cause only layers like to twist people's words against them...
For 5 post you constantly called me stupid, idiot or any other possible superlatives (not directly, but indirectly. So, credit where is due;) ). So, how about I take my toys and leave... The only person having an Ego problem here is you mate. You can't grasp the idea that you talk "bollocks" and have no clue about it, just a faint idea and expect things to be different then they are. I just know when to back-off from a fight.
I am trying to help, yet your logic is flawed in certain place and then since there isn't anything else for you do to, you start twisting words and logic to your own benefit and keep "calling me different names", again indirectly. (While talking about different things is GOOD coming to a conclusion is also good, and I thought this was the reason behind the whole thread. There are things that aren't working as we expect or should, but in the same time is not a general thing. I was trying to show this for like the last few days...) THIS IS EXACTLY HOW A COMMUNITY WORKS MATE...NOT.
You have done basically zero for this community and yet your Ego has the nerve to call me idiot and stupid and whatnot over and over again. Congrats. Hope you will do more for this community from now on.
I can still do what I do and not needing to share with ingrates like you. Even easier for me :)
I will also maintain my contacts in different places, and I can guarantee you... You will not see any results with everything related to GPUs in the future (Just because I like to make it personal now) LOL... No, not really! I do hope you solve this issue and that you are right and I am wrong!
Also, you don't give a SHIT about how I feel, so stop with the "I am sorry you feel that way helifax." I actually feel relieved to finally close this.
Maybe you are right and I am wrong;) Is always good to have a new perspective on things;) But, is not good to make it absolute;)
@terintamel:
Perfectly understandable. No problem there. And is actually better if you don't put anyone else in your Ticket.
And also, don't involve the Rage-demon guy as what he explains is not real. (I also wish the moon is green, but is not as a solid fact).
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick mate (Well not really:)) Maybe I am the dick for saying it ^_^). You just happen to fill in the "glass" in the last days with your constant "I am right, you are wrong" approach. What? Are you a layer or something? Cause only layers like to twist people's words against them...
For 5 post you constantly called me stupid, idiot or any other possible superlatives (not directly, but indirectly. So, credit where is due;) ). So, how about I take my toys and leave... The only person having an Ego problem here is you mate. You can't grasp the idea that you talk "bollocks" and have no clue about it, just a faint idea and expect things to be different then they are. I just know when to back-off from a fight.
I am trying to help, yet your logic is flawed in certain place and then since there isn't anything else for you do to, you start twisting words and logic to your own benefit and keep "calling me different names", again indirectly. (While talking about different things is GOOD coming to a conclusion is also good, and I thought this was the reason behind the whole thread. There are things that aren't working as we expect or should, but in the same time is not a general thing. I was trying to show this for like the last few days...) THIS IS EXACTLY HOW A COMMUNITY WORKS MATE...NOT.
You have done basically zero for this community and yet your Ego has the nerve to call me idiot and stupid and whatnot over and over again. Congrats. Hope you will do more for this community from now on.
I can still do what I do and not needing to share with ingrates like you. Even easier for me :)
I will also maintain my contacts in different places, and I can guarantee you... You will not see any results with everything related to GPUs in the future (Just because I like to make it personal now) LOL... No, not really! I do hope you solve this issue and that you are right and I am wrong!
Also, you don't give a SHIT about how I feel, so stop with the "I am sorry you feel that way helifax." I actually feel relieved to finally close this.
Maybe you are right and I am wrong;) Is always good to have a new perspective on things;) But, is not good to make it absolute;)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="helifax"]
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick mate. No other word for it. You just happen to fill in the glass.
[color="green"]For 5 post you constantly called me stupid, idiot[/color]
or any other possible superlatives. So, how about I take my toys and leave... The only person having an Ego problem here is you mate. I just now when to back-off from a fight with a retard.
You have done basically zero for this community and yet [color="green"]your Ego has the nerve to call me idiot and stupid
and whatnot over and over again[/color]. Congrats. Hope you will do more for this community from now on.
I can still do what I do and not needing to share with ingrates like you. Even easier for me :)
I also maintain my contacts in different places, and I can guarantee you... You will not see any results with this.[/quote]
helifax, please, stop editing your post so much!
There is some kind of missunderstanding. Please read back through my posts and show me even one place where I call you either of those things. Please, just one.
I call myself stupid on multiple occasions in my own posts however, and not sarcastically.
Before you write me and this community off, please just have a read once. If you find even one instance, then I am humbly at your mercy.
In fact, if you can find even that one instance,[color="green"] I will delete My account[/color], if you promise to stay. As you have said, I have contributed nothing recently to the community compared to you. The community doesn't need me. It needs you.
[quote="helifax"]Also, you don't give a SHIT about how I feel, so stop with the "I am sorry you feel that way helifax." I actually feel relieved to finally close this.
Maybe you are right and I am wrong;) Is always good to have a new perspective on things;) But, is not good to make it absolute;)[/quote]
If I didn't care mate, I wouldn't spend hours of my precious free time writing replies to you personally explaining things to try and make you specifically understand. I would just ignore you. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference.
It's not about who is right and who is wrong, as in my above post. This isn't a pissing contest. But when you post claims which don't agree with reality, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to accept them blindly and not point them out in a thread I started about specific results?
What I don't understand is why you are collectively punishing the entire community if you are only mad at me?
The logical thing to do would be just to ignore me. What do you hope to accomplish?
Octavian, what exactly is it that you want?
[quote="helifax"]
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick
[/quote]
:(
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick mate. No other word for it. You just happen to fill in the glass. For 5 post you constantly called me stupid, idiot
or any other possible superlatives. So, how about I take my toys and leave... The only person having an Ego problem here is you mate. I just now when to back-off from a fight with a retard.
You have done basically zero for this community and yet your Ego has the nerve to call me idiot and stupid
and whatnot over and over again. Congrats. Hope you will do more for this community from now on.
I can still do what I do and not needing to share with ingrates like you. Even easier for me :)
I also maintain my contacts in different places, and I can guarantee you... You will not see any results with this.
helifax, please, stop editing your post so much!
There is some kind of missunderstanding. Please read back through my posts and show me even one place where I call you either of those things. Please, just one.
I call myself stupid on multiple occasions in my own posts however, and not sarcastically.
Before you write me and this community off, please just have a read once. If you find even one instance, then I am humbly at your mercy.
In fact, if you can find even that one instance, I will delete My account, if you promise to stay. As you have said, I have contributed nothing recently to the community compared to you. The community doesn't need me. It needs you.
helifax said:Also, you don't give a SHIT about how I feel, so stop with the "I am sorry you feel that way helifax." I actually feel relieved to finally close this.
Maybe you are right and I am wrong;) Is always good to have a new perspective on things;) But, is not good to make it absolute;)
If I didn't care mate, I wouldn't spend hours of my precious free time writing replies to you personally explaining things to try and make you specifically understand. I would just ignore you. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference.
It's not about who is right and who is wrong, as in my above post. This isn't a pissing contest. But when you post claims which don't agree with reality, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to accept them blindly and not point them out in a thread I started about specific results?
What I don't understand is why you are collectively punishing the entire community if you are only mad at me?
The logical thing to do would be just to ignore me. What do you hope to accomplish?
Octavian, what exactly is it that you want?
helifax said:
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick
:(
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
This is indeed getting ridiculous.
and Helifax's contributions are one of the most important this community has to offer. I'll be supremely pissed myself if this argument causes him to give up on this community forever, which is what its sounding like, and remove his substantial contributions for a fight about something I am also simply not seeing.
I'm kinda sick of the few ruining things for the rest of us.
You are rendering the same image twice, of course a moderate to large performance impact is to be expected.
I'm not seeing any difference since I first started using 3dvision, which is now years ago under three different hard ware revisions.
I suggest submitting your findings to Nvidia and let them decide if it's worth addressing and just chilling out a bit here.
This is indeed getting ridiculous.
and Helifax's contributions are one of the most important this community has to offer. I'll be supremely pissed myself if this argument causes him to give up on this community forever, which is what its sounding like, and remove his substantial contributions for a fight about something I am also simply not seeing.
I'm kinda sick of the few ruining things for the rest of us.
You are rendering the same image twice, of course a moderate to large performance impact is to be expected.
I'm not seeing any difference since I first started using 3dvision, which is now years ago under three different hard ware revisions.
I suggest submitting your findings to Nvidia and let them decide if it's worth addressing and just chilling out a bit here.
i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
EVGA 1080TI SLI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
ASUS Z97-WS
3D Surround ASUS Rog Swift PG278Q(R), 2x PG278Q (yes it works)
Obutto R3volution.
Windows 10 pro 64x (Windows 7 Dual boot)
I'm going to try to explain it to what I think was the original intent. Helifax has done tons for the community. I really really really hope he does not leave because he's responsible for many many hours of Enjoyment I've had 3d Gaming.
I'm also not convinced tis bug is present in other games other than GTAV, but I am interested in seeing results, if the procedures are done and explained correctly.
The main argument is one of the following should occur. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
1) You should near 90-100% GPU Usage (GPU Bound) while other things are not utilized 100%
2) You should get near 90-100% CPU Usage (CPU Bound) ***This is what we are testing for while other things are not utilized 100%
3) You are Vsynced (Hitting 60 FPS, thus you are not utilizing 100% of CPU or GPU)
4) You are hitting an engine limit in game.
The goal of this is to see if the GTAV Bug is present in other games. This bug is that in 3D vision it uses only 3 cores (75% for each of the 4 cores is the maximum usage you'll see with a quad core processor like mine, meanwhile you're not getting 100% GPU Usage, or Hitting 60FPS)
While in 2D GTAV it uses like 6 or more cores. I am not convinced it's present in other games, as Deus Ex Mankind Divided was listed, but I get 90-100% usage in all 4 cores in both 2D and 3D.
I have tested the issue in GTAV and it is present with the 980 ti, 1070, 1080, Pascal Titan X. There's a whole thread about it, where Bo3b, and others have confirmed it in that game.
The goal should have been to get to a place in game and settings where you get 90-100% CPU usage in 2D.
Then you set the settings to 3D. The CPU Usage should still be 90-100% in that same location if the GPU usage is not near 100%. The GPU usage cannot go to near 100% or else you are GPU limiting the test since in 3D you render twice as many frames. You also can not go near the engine FPS limit or you are hitting the Engine limit.
I'm going to try to explain it to what I think was the original intent. Helifax has done tons for the community. I really really really hope he does not leave because he's responsible for many many hours of Enjoyment I've had 3d Gaming.
I'm also not convinced tis bug is present in other games other than GTAV, but I am interested in seeing results, if the procedures are done and explained correctly.
The main argument is one of the following should occur. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
1) You should near 90-100% GPU Usage (GPU Bound) while other things are not utilized 100%
2) You should get near 90-100% CPU Usage (CPU Bound) ***This is what we are testing for while other things are not utilized 100%
3) You are Vsynced (Hitting 60 FPS, thus you are not utilizing 100% of CPU or GPU)
4) You are hitting an engine limit in game.
The goal of this is to see if the GTAV Bug is present in other games. This bug is that in 3D vision it uses only 3 cores (75% for each of the 4 cores is the maximum usage you'll see with a quad core processor like mine, meanwhile you're not getting 100% GPU Usage, or Hitting 60FPS)
While in 2D GTAV it uses like 6 or more cores. I am not convinced it's present in other games, as Deus Ex Mankind Divided was listed, but I get 90-100% usage in all 4 cores in both 2D and 3D.
I have tested the issue in GTAV and it is present with the 980 ti, 1070, 1080, Pascal Titan X. There's a whole thread about it, where Bo3b, and others have confirmed it in that game.
The goal should have been to get to a place in game and settings where you get 90-100% CPU usage in 2D.
Then you set the settings to 3D. The CPU Usage should still be 90-100% in that same location if the GPU usage is not near 100%. The GPU usage cannot go to near 100% or else you are GPU limiting the test since in 3D you render twice as many frames. You also can not go near the engine FPS limit or you are hitting the Engine limit.
[quote="necropants"]I'll be supremely pissed myself if this argument causes him to give up on this community forever, which is what its sounding like, and remove his substantial contributions for a fight about something I am also simply not seeing.
I'm kinda sick of the few ruining things for the rest of us.[/quote]
Let's get this straight: nothing is causing Helifax to make this decision other than himself. It's the same thing as a person who physically abuses their spouse and then says, "Look what you made me do!" No, no one makes you do anything. Your actions and decisions are entirely your own, so if he takes his fixes/wrappers down (which it seems like he already has started to) it's on no one but him.
I'm not taking sides on this matter (actually, I suppose by what I'm about to say I am, but I feel the situation calls for me to speak up), but this is definitely not the first time Helifax has threatened and/or actually proceeded to "take (his) toys and leave" (which as the term 'toys' implies, is a very childish and selfish act). How many times has this happened before, and how many times has everyone not only excused his behavior but also sided with Helifax (likely out of their own self-preservation instincts rather than actually having followed the situation from the beginning), when he was the one who actually instigated the fight in the first place? (despite him claiming he's not attacking the person and then prefacing his attacks with "not to be a dick", he does just that... well, sorry but just saying that doesn't actually give you the right to then proceed with doing it)
Yes, his contributions are extremely valuable, and as I've said before he'll always have my respect for them (unless he takes them away, in which case it's the exact opposite), but quite frankly I find his attitude towards others rather abrasive and condescending, and also look at this behavior as extortion. I get it: we're a small, close-knit community and we all (well, most of us) try to be positive and support one another, but to what extent do we keep accepting this? Do we not have enough dignity to call a person out, no matter how great a contributor they may be, on their bad behavior, rather than continuously pretending we're ok with it simply for the sake of keeping him happy so he doesn't storm off like a child? I for one, would rather not stand for it. Does this mean people will side with him against me too? Well, go right on ahead, but at least I won't turn my back and leave taking my toys with me. Those are gifts freely given, without any expectation or perceived ownership thereof, as they should be.
So Helifax, despite what I've just said and that we clearly have differing opinions on what we consider acceptable behaviour, I hope my example helps you make a change of heart and I urge you for the sake of the community (and yourself) to reconsider your position on retracting your contributions (I've already gotten everything I need from your site, so it doesn't affect me if you don't). Whether you continue to provide further fixes and support or not is a different story, and for your own sake (not mine or the community's. It would definitely be a significant loss for us) I would agree that maybe you should stop if you can't handle the stress involved with it (which clearly seems to be the case), and that's fine, you've earned your retirement! (maybe if you ask nicely we'll all chip in for a pension! lol :P) No one can say you haven't given your all up until now, and that's not enough, but don't go and tarnish all that by acting like a brat and taking it all away.
necropants said:I'll be supremely pissed myself if this argument causes him to give up on this community forever, which is what its sounding like, and remove his substantial contributions for a fight about something I am also simply not seeing.
I'm kinda sick of the few ruining things for the rest of us.
Let's get this straight: nothing is causing Helifax to make this decision other than himself. It's the same thing as a person who physically abuses their spouse and then says, "Look what you made me do!" No, no one makes you do anything. Your actions and decisions are entirely your own, so if he takes his fixes/wrappers down (which it seems like he already has started to) it's on no one but him.
I'm not taking sides on this matter (actually, I suppose by what I'm about to say I am, but I feel the situation calls for me to speak up), but this is definitely not the first time Helifax has threatened and/or actually proceeded to "take (his) toys and leave" (which as the term 'toys' implies, is a very childish and selfish act). How many times has this happened before, and how many times has everyone not only excused his behavior but also sided with Helifax (likely out of their own self-preservation instincts rather than actually having followed the situation from the beginning), when he was the one who actually instigated the fight in the first place? (despite him claiming he's not attacking the person and then prefacing his attacks with "not to be a dick", he does just that... well, sorry but just saying that doesn't actually give you the right to then proceed with doing it)
Yes, his contributions are extremely valuable, and as I've said before he'll always have my respect for them (unless he takes them away, in which case it's the exact opposite), but quite frankly I find his attitude towards others rather abrasive and condescending, and also look at this behavior as extortion. I get it: we're a small, close-knit community and we all (well, most of us) try to be positive and support one another, but to what extent do we keep accepting this? Do we not have enough dignity to call a person out, no matter how great a contributor they may be, on their bad behavior, rather than continuously pretending we're ok with it simply for the sake of keeping him happy so he doesn't storm off like a child? I for one, would rather not stand for it. Does this mean people will side with him against me too? Well, go right on ahead, but at least I won't turn my back and leave taking my toys with me. Those are gifts freely given, without any expectation or perceived ownership thereof, as they should be.
So Helifax, despite what I've just said and that we clearly have differing opinions on what we consider acceptable behaviour, I hope my example helps you make a change of heart and I urge you for the sake of the community (and yourself) to reconsider your position on retracting your contributions (I've already gotten everything I need from your site, so it doesn't affect me if you don't). Whether you continue to provide further fixes and support or not is a different story, and for your own sake (not mine or the community's. It would definitely be a significant loss for us) I would agree that maybe you should stop if you can't handle the stress involved with it (which clearly seems to be the case), and that's fine, you've earned your retirement! (maybe if you ask nicely we'll all chip in for a pension! lol :P) No one can say you haven't given your all up until now, and that's not enough, but don't go and tarnish all that by acting like a brat and taking it all away.
3D Gaming Rig: CPU: i7 7700K @ 4.9Ghz | Mobo: Asus Maximus Hero VIII | RAM: Corsair Dominator 16GB | GPU: 2 x GTX 1080 Ti SLI | 3xSSDs for OS and Apps, 2 x HDD's for 11GB storage | PSU: Seasonic X-1250 M2| Case: Corsair C70 | Cooling: Corsair H115i Hydro cooler | Displays: Asus PG278QR, BenQ XL2420TX & BenQ HT1075 | OS: Windows 10 Pro + Windows 7 dual boot
Come on, helifax. Why should thousands of people suffer (i.e. not being able to download your fixes) because of a few posts of arguments (that should be just a normal discussion)? Why should an argument with one user equal vanishing from the community?
Come on, helifax. Why should thousands of people suffer (i.e. not being able to download your fixes) because of a few posts of arguments (that should be just a normal discussion)? Why should an argument with one user equal vanishing from the community?
Wow this is crazy!
I can't believe that Helifax would go mental over some silly argument. I've actually read through the posts in this thread and I I'm not sure who is right as personally I've always assumed that the GPU WILL run 99 or 100% unless their is some kind of bottleneck, which usually is a CPU core hitting 100%, or Vsync when you are hitting 60fps cap and your GPU has no reason to go any higher.
The last game (in 2D) that gave me a bottleneck was Abzu and it was indeed hitting 100% on one of my CPU cores and the GPU was only using about 40% usage.
But I'm also not that tech savvy and there may very well be a host of reason why the GPU will not hit 100%.
I don't understand why not just leave the issue alone if you are sure you're right, then just move on. This thing was taken way out of proportion, and I do find it shocking that Helifax would actually go and remove his fixs from his sight because he had an argument with one person!
I was also just about to start Doom again after a full system wipe, with my new Titan X Pascal but I forgot to back up the fix as I never would have imagined that it would be pulled by Helifax but it is indeed! All the fix's are gone!
Wondering if it would be possible for someone to host the Doom fix somewhere? PM me please as it's really a shame that Helifax would punish most of the people on here who were nice and supportive of him because he got into an argument about bottlenecking and GPU usage!
I can't believe that Helifax would go mental over some silly argument. I've actually read through the posts in this thread and I I'm not sure who is right as personally I've always assumed that the GPU WILL run 99 or 100% unless their is some kind of bottleneck, which usually is a CPU core hitting 100%, or Vsync when you are hitting 60fps cap and your GPU has no reason to go any higher.
The last game (in 2D) that gave me a bottleneck was Abzu and it was indeed hitting 100% on one of my CPU cores and the GPU was only using about 40% usage.
But I'm also not that tech savvy and there may very well be a host of reason why the GPU will not hit 100%.
I don't understand why not just leave the issue alone if you are sure you're right, then just move on. This thing was taken way out of proportion, and I do find it shocking that Helifax would actually go and remove his fixs from his sight because he had an argument with one person!
I was also just about to start Doom again after a full system wipe, with my new Titan X Pascal but I forgot to back up the fix as I never would have imagined that it would be pulled by Helifax but it is indeed! All the fix's are gone!
Wondering if it would be possible for someone to host the Doom fix somewhere? PM me please as it's really a shame that Helifax would punish most of the people on here who were nice and supportive of him because he got into an argument about bottlenecking and GPU usage!
A lot of Confusion is floating around on GPU saturation and CPU usage. The strange thing this issue over bottle necks has gone from a conversation to what ever this is.........
As to Helifax leaving. He has a right to take his stuff with him. That is his decision. You also have to keep in mind Programming takes a lot of time and effort. A lot of work goes in to the fixes that we see here. He feels disrespected.
After reading RAGEdemon post. I really don't see the problem your results show Minor bottle necking and this is to be expected. There is even minor bottle necking in Helifax results. In other words this is a non issue.
Helifax was right that it was a non issue to start with.
You can ether overclock your cpu and or mainly use DSR and use a larger in game resolution. If you really want to saturate your GPUS.
As for terintamel issue there is something wrong. I have a lesser CPU then He and a stronger GPU so my Bottle Neck should be more then his. But, I don't get the Hitching he shows in his video when 3D Vision is enabled.
My hardware is a 1055T OC to 3.999 GHz on all cores and a GTX 1070 stock. But, I play mostly at 4K where my processor becomes a non issue. But, I did try Terintamel setting in the game he wrote and I was unable to reproduce his problem.
My mobo is a crappy 970a krait that same board the Burst in to flames if you put a FX9590....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zTzpYjQ2MM
So it may not be your processor. If I was a betting man I would Bet it's your gpu, mobo, or drivers with the combination of the other two.
A lot of Confusion is floating around on GPU saturation and CPU usage. The strange thing this issue over bottle necks has gone from a conversation to what ever this is.........
As to Helifax leaving. He has a right to take his stuff with him. That is his decision. You also have to keep in mind Programming takes a lot of time and effort. A lot of work goes in to the fixes that we see here. He feels disrespected.
After reading RAGEdemon post. I really don't see the problem your results show Minor bottle necking and this is to be expected. There is even minor bottle necking in Helifax results. In other words this is a non issue.
Helifax was right that it was a non issue to start with.
You can ether overclock your cpu and or mainly use DSR and use a larger in game resolution. If you really want to saturate your GPUS.
As for terintamel issue there is something wrong. I have a lesser CPU then He and a stronger GPU so my Bottle Neck should be more then his. But, I don't get the Hitching he shows in his video when 3D Vision is enabled.
My hardware is a 1055T OC to 3.999 GHz on all cores and a GTX 1070 stock. But, I play mostly at 4K where my processor becomes a non issue. But, I did try Terintamel setting in the game he wrote and I was unable to reproduce his problem.
My mobo is a crappy 970a krait that same board the Burst in to flames if you put a FX9590.......
So it may not be your processor. If I was a betting man I would Bet it's your gpu, mobo, or drivers with the combination of the other two.
What DJ-RK said is true and my behaviour was childish. I also did started attacking RAGEdemon at some point, especially when he started throwing phrases like
[quote]
I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
[/quote]
which I took it personal as is a direct attack to my intelligence and knowledge.
In any case, I want to apologise for attacking him directly. I also think everyone else is right.
This stupid thing shouldn't affect the whole community which is small as it is. I'll revert the posts and put the webpages back, so nothing lost there.
But, in the same time, from now on I'll be more of a ghost here on these forums (this decision is made by me and like DJ-RK said, only I can decide this.) There are multiple reasons behind it and I will not talk about them here.
I also feel like instead of ending this discussion nicely, both parties got upset and parted ways in a not so nice manner. I don't like this. Thus, I will try to end this conversation with the things that I found (as a conclusion).
What everyone is doing with this is up to you.
Observed problem:
AMD/Intel CPU + Pascal GPUs, in certain scenarios:
GPU usage approx. 60%
CPU usage approx. 33-45%
Result low FPS, without neither the CPU or GPU being stressed or bottlenecked.
This is what it looks to be a driver/software issue inded.
Normal behaviour:
GPU usage approx. 99%
CPU usage should be anywhere up to 80-90% (otherwise there is a big problem).
As, I have shown it, this is the normal case and always been like this.
Another problem is the so-called CPU "running less" normal when 3D Vision is activated. This one is quite simple, but requires a bit of a back-story:
Games and drivers are multi-threaded. In order to pass information from one thread to another you need to use a synchronisation mechanism (be it mutexes, critical sections etc).
As an example:
You have: "int myValue;"
You have Thread1 & Thread2.
Both threads want to use "myValue".
In order to make it's value consistent you normally use a mutex lock around it.
Now, the actual execution is like this:
Thread1 wants to read myValue. Mutex is locked.
Thread2 wants to read myValue. Because Thread1 already has the mutex locked, Thread2 will wait until Thread1 finished using "myValue" and the mutex is released. Only then Thread2 will be able to access it.
This is a syncrhonisation mechanism. As a result a variable, etc can only be used BY ONE THREAD at a certain time. Everyone else will WAIT until that thread is finished.
(I didn't want to go into details in the above example, in order to show how things work in a simplified way.)
So, back to the problem. You have a render loop:
[code]
PER FRAME
Begin
CPU, calculates data: matrices, etc.
CPU, bounds the vertex arrays with the GPU.
CPU, tells GPU what shaders to use, etc.
CPU, tells GPU to draw those vertexes, etc from the bound resourced.
CPU waits, until GPU finishes.
End
Advance TIME in-game.
Repeat from Begin.
[/code]
So, in 2D let's say thins render loop takes X amount of time to execute. CPU load will be 50% (based on the CPU Mhz and the X time, the load will be calculated).
In 3D when you render, because you need to render twice:
- You still have the same render loop. (The 3D Vision Automatic actually modifies it).
- Now you would think that the Begin/End loop from above will be executed 2 times. FALSE
- The above loop will be executed ONE TIME (bounding resources, etc) BUT the actual draw calls will be duplicated.
- As a result you get the GPU to work more and the CPU to WAIT MORE. (The CPU still thinks is rendering ONE frame and waits for the GPU to tell it is finished). Just by rendering two frames instead of one you can't simply put a linear division here. (Say we multiply this by 2 and divide this by 2). The execution time for both CPU and GPU is not linear.
As a result the X time required in 2D to run the Render Loop one time it will always be bigger than before.
Bigger "deltaT" between loop execution, the LOWER the CPU usage will be.
This is why you see a decrease in CPU usage. Again this is normal. You get one "time slice" in which the GPU needs to do more. As a result, the CPU will wait more for the GPU to finish.
Know that we understand this, look at my results and your results. You will see that they map perfectly fine.
Back to the problem with the low CPU+GPU usage on Pascal. There is definitely SOMETHING wrong! For some reason, both the CPU and GPU wait for something! (Remember about the mutexes and accessing stuff from different threads example?). I expect something waits for another thing, and the "another" thing waits for the "something" to finish. This is what is called a "dead-lock".
And what you describe there stinks of a form of dead-lock. Is not a "perfect" dead-lock as that would HALT your application, but something is definitely wrong.
Ofc, if you pair a Pentium 1 with a 980 you will never see the GPU saturated but you will see your CPU getting exhausted. Yet, what we see here (on the Pascal) is everyone just sitting close to idle... (While it works perfect for Maxwell and even people with Pascal GPUs.) So, this is definitely a problem!
Everything else works as expected. Without having the code to the 3D Vision Driver and doing some profiling we can't understand more than this as the exact reason why load is X on the CPU and Y on the GPU, but we already know how a multi-threaded application works.
Hope this explanation helps anyone and removes at least a "wall of fog" from the problem.
Also, one thing to mention:
A proper CPU bottleneck is when you exhaust your CPU and it works 100%. At this point you can get into some serious issues, including Kernel Panics and other ugly problems. (Although now with newer OSes is less likely to see this, even if you get here).
A proper GPU bottleneck is when you get inconsistent loads across it, as the parallelism is not working. (This is very very hard to find as is a synchronisation issue and can be caused by other system stability issues).
A GPU working 99% is not exhausted as you might think. You simply use it to it's max potential. You could argue that it is a bottleneck as if the GPU would be faster you could get better frames. And yes, you would. But even so, working at 99% it gives you CONSISTENT results without affecting the integrity of the system stability.
A GPU is designed to sustain workloads of 99%. This is the normal behaviour!
Cheers!
What DJ-RK said is true and my behaviour was childish. I also did started attacking RAGEdemon at some point, especially when he started throwing phrases like
I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
which I took it personal as is a direct attack to my intelligence and knowledge.
In any case, I want to apologise for attacking him directly. I also think everyone else is right.
This stupid thing shouldn't affect the whole community which is small as it is. I'll revert the posts and put the webpages back, so nothing lost there.
But, in the same time, from now on I'll be more of a ghost here on these forums (this decision is made by me and like DJ-RK said, only I can decide this.) There are multiple reasons behind it and I will not talk about them here.
I also feel like instead of ending this discussion nicely, both parties got upset and parted ways in a not so nice manner. I don't like this. Thus, I will try to end this conversation with the things that I found (as a conclusion).
What everyone is doing with this is up to you.
Observed problem:
AMD/Intel CPU + Pascal GPUs, in certain scenarios:
GPU usage approx. 60%
CPU usage approx. 33-45%
Result low FPS, without neither the CPU or GPU being stressed or bottlenecked.
This is what it looks to be a driver/software issue inded.
Normal behaviour:
GPU usage approx. 99%
CPU usage should be anywhere up to 80-90% (otherwise there is a big problem).
As, I have shown it, this is the normal case and always been like this.
Another problem is the so-called CPU "running less" normal when 3D Vision is activated. This one is quite simple, but requires a bit of a back-story:
Games and drivers are multi-threaded. In order to pass information from one thread to another you need to use a synchronisation mechanism (be it mutexes, critical sections etc).
As an example:
You have: "int myValue;"
You have Thread1 & Thread2.
Both threads want to use "myValue".
In order to make it's value consistent you normally use a mutex lock around it.
Now, the actual execution is like this:
Thread1 wants to read myValue. Mutex is locked.
Thread2 wants to read myValue. Because Thread1 already has the mutex locked, Thread2 will wait until Thread1 finished using "myValue" and the mutex is released. Only then Thread2 will be able to access it.
This is a syncrhonisation mechanism. As a result a variable, etc can only be used BY ONE THREAD at a certain time. Everyone else will WAIT until that thread is finished.
(I didn't want to go into details in the above example, in order to show how things work in a simplified way.)
So, back to the problem. You have a render loop:
PER FRAME
Begin
CPU, calculates data: matrices, etc.
CPU, bounds the vertex arrays with the GPU.
CPU, tells GPU what shaders to use, etc.
CPU, tells GPU to draw those vertexes, etc from the bound resourced.
CPU waits, until GPU finishes.
End
Advance TIME in-game.
Repeat from Begin.
So, in 2D let's say thins render loop takes X amount of time to execute. CPU load will be 50% (based on the CPU Mhz and the X time, the load will be calculated).
In 3D when you render, because you need to render twice:
- You still have the same render loop. (The 3D Vision Automatic actually modifies it).
- Now you would think that the Begin/End loop from above will be executed 2 times. FALSE
- The above loop will be executed ONE TIME (bounding resources, etc) BUT the actual draw calls will be duplicated.
- As a result you get the GPU to work more and the CPU to WAIT MORE. (The CPU still thinks is rendering ONE frame and waits for the GPU to tell it is finished). Just by rendering two frames instead of one you can't simply put a linear division here. (Say we multiply this by 2 and divide this by 2). The execution time for both CPU and GPU is not linear.
As a result the X time required in 2D to run the Render Loop one time it will always be bigger than before.
Bigger "deltaT" between loop execution, the LOWER the CPU usage will be.
This is why you see a decrease in CPU usage. Again this is normal. You get one "time slice" in which the GPU needs to do more. As a result, the CPU will wait more for the GPU to finish.
Know that we understand this, look at my results and your results. You will see that they map perfectly fine.
Back to the problem with the low CPU+GPU usage on Pascal. There is definitely SOMETHING wrong! For some reason, both the CPU and GPU wait for something! (Remember about the mutexes and accessing stuff from different threads example?). I expect something waits for another thing, and the "another" thing waits for the "something" to finish. This is what is called a "dead-lock".
And what you describe there stinks of a form of dead-lock. Is not a "perfect" dead-lock as that would HALT your application, but something is definitely wrong.
Ofc, if you pair a Pentium 1 with a 980 you will never see the GPU saturated but you will see your CPU getting exhausted. Yet, what we see here (on the Pascal) is everyone just sitting close to idle... (While it works perfect for Maxwell and even people with Pascal GPUs.) So, this is definitely a problem!
Everything else works as expected. Without having the code to the 3D Vision Driver and doing some profiling we can't understand more than this as the exact reason why load is X on the CPU and Y on the GPU, but we already know how a multi-threaded application works.
Hope this explanation helps anyone and removes at least a "wall of fog" from the problem.
Also, one thing to mention:
A proper CPU bottleneck is when you exhaust your CPU and it works 100%. At this point you can get into some serious issues, including Kernel Panics and other ugly problems. (Although now with newer OSes is less likely to see this, even if you get here).
A proper GPU bottleneck is when you get inconsistent loads across it, as the parallelism is not working. (This is very very hard to find as is a synchronisation issue and can be caused by other system stability issues).
A GPU working 99% is not exhausted as you might think. You simply use it to it's max potential. You could argue that it is a bottleneck as if the GPU would be faster you could get better frames. And yes, you would. But even so, working at 99% it gives you CONSISTENT results without affecting the integrity of the system stability.
A GPU is designed to sustain workloads of 99%. This is the normal behaviour!
Cheers!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
I am really surprised and disappointed in you mate. Yet another one of your claims is false...
Your GPU is fully saturated at 99% and only giving 173fps - it's not running free as you claim. If it was running free at <90% usage, it would be giving 200 fps as I have said. To achieve this, you need to lower your resolution and graphics settings ಠ_ಠ
You are contradicting your own screenshots and results mate :)
For the record,
No, you are wrong. MSI Afterburner OSD is misreporting your clock (and your memory usage, 4194 GB of VRAM, really?) because you didn't restart it after disabling / enabling your SLi. If you don't believe me, rerun that test with MSI Afterburner working properly and you will see your Clocks at normal levels as well as the GPU being saturated.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Dude, for your own Records (since you clearly don't understand it) A Graphics Computing Unit (GPU) is meant to run in parallel. If you don't put artificial caps (VSYNC, FPS/Voltage,etc. limiters) it is BY DESIGN that it will RUN at FULL LOAD.
This doesn't mean it is SWAMPED... I see you LACK some basic concepts on how a GPU differs from a CPU...
A CPU is swamped IF it works at 100%
A GPU working at 99% it means the CPU can "feed it" (giving the vertex, normals, textures, ETC) information and the GPU can work at it's pace. THIS IS NORMAL AND EXPECTED BEHAVIOR.
A swamped GPU is a GPU on which the LOAD IS ALL OVER THE PLACE 60, 80, 55, 100, 33, etc in short intervals of time (1-2 seconds), as the parallel computing units cannot keep up with the CPU feeding it data. Again, there is a REASON THINGS ARE SYNCHRONIZED. A GPU working at 99% will always tell the CPU TO WAIT until it is ready, however this is not always the case. (All those pre-rendered frames numbers you see in NVPanel are there for a reason related to this.)
A CPU can also tell the GPU to wait for the new data (when the CPU) is ready and thus will give you a lower GPU usage. But, THIS IS NOT A CPU OR GPU BOTTLENECK mate. THIS IS BY DESIGN and all GPUS worked like this since creation.
Under 3D Vision, it's the same. Except for the tests some people showed, where bot CPU and GPU were lower than what they should be. And please don't give me the GTA5 example. If you want, I can make any game freaking crawl with 5 FPS and CPU & GPU usage running at 10% (more or less what everyone sees there)... Does this prove is a bug in the driver? NOPE.
Again, do some reading on the Client (CPU) - Server (GPU) rendering pipeline and understand how things work.
Then you will see there is no bug and what I showed is actually optimal behavior! There is something strange with Pascal & 3D Vision though... Sigh
For the record:
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage... Which again this proves the renderer pipeline is synchronized with the time. (Use Cheat engine and modify the time scale - aka Speed hack, and you will see how your FPS will either decrease or increased based on that).
Again, I might not know "much" about CPUs and GPUs are made (hardware-wise) but I can tell you very well that I DO know how they work from the software point of view, so please don't insult me with phrases like that in the future. Much appreciated.
Don't know why I keep posting here... (Where the hell is the account delete button...)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
This is BS mate. Play any game which requires a hefty GPU, and it will STAY at 95-99% constantly.
Why don't you load up Heaven benchmark, or any other GPU benchmark. Better yet, MSI Kombustor which comes pre-packaged with MSI Afterburner and see the GPU load stay constant at 95-99% usage yourself.
Another claim bites the dust huh?
I'm quite interested in this. Please show me a well multi-threaded game with these results where no artificial caps such as vsync or frame caps are set. I would honestly love to see it.
Well, of course it does, I said it would in this very thread in my previous posts; and I quote:
and
and
Also, I must thank you for derailing this results thread, even after multiple requests by me to move this kind of discussion to the other bottleneck thread.
You are just embarrassing yourself now mate, and I hate seeing you like this :(
As I have said in my previous posts, I'm the stupid guy and I don't think I'm smart. I have also pointed out that you are smart and clever on many of my posts in this thread and other threads. I usually sing praises about you, bo3b, etc on a lot of posts I make.
If you want to delete your account, I will be greatly saddened, as will others in the community. But, if you feel that's what you want to do, then please go ahead. You will be greatly missed. All I can say for myself and the community is please don't go.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I'll close my account now. It seems you know everything and have everything solved, so no need for me to stick around and "prove a fool" as you clearly stated it numerous times! THANK YOU VERY MUCH friend.
(I think I'll also delete all my thread while at it... cause who would want to listen to a fool anyway.. They have you now! )
I'll let you do all the future coding and whatever.
I am sick of people "knowing" everything when in fact they know shit. You just like to use my words and turn them up-side-down to show your faulty argument.
Hope you really get what you want:) Cause I really got what I wanted now... The extra reason to leave this place:) Really nice going mate:)
Anywho...
See you in 10 years from now IF and WHEN the next 3D Vision will appear. If not... ADIOS!
EDIT: I will remove any fix from my website. I will see if I will keep the website on or off in the future.
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
However, what helifax says also make logical sense as well. Since I am neither a software designer or hardware designer I really do not know what to make of all this. Right now I am only going to present Nvidia with what I have sent them (it was enough to get a Level 2 support tech involved) and let them TELL ME what is going on. I have my suspicions, but I will refrain from making definitive statements about things I do not understand.
This is not me begging, but helifax I would recommend you reconsider as you seem to be making a decision out of pure emotion and passion, that while good can at times lead to making a rash decision.
RAGEdemon, back off. Present your data...make your case..., but tone it down.
Remember guys it takes two to tango, and this is about Video Games and really not that important.
I appreciate the support you have given my stutter issue, but the more you go on with helifax the more I need to unhitch my horse from your wagon and go it alone with my ticket to Nvidia for the time being. I DO NOT need this drama bleeding into my support ticket to possibly derail any progress I have made with them so far.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
For what it's worth, In my post a few pages back, I still stick by what I said:
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Perfectly understandable. No problem there. And is actually better if you don't put anyone else in your Ticket.
And also, don't involve the Rage-demon guy as what he explains is not real. (I also wish the moon is green, but is not as a solid fact).
@RAGEdemon:
You really are a dick mate (Well not really:)) Maybe I am the dick for saying it ^_^). You just happen to fill in the "glass" in the last days with your constant "I am right, you are wrong" approach. What? Are you a layer or something? Cause only layers like to twist people's words against them...
For 5 post you constantly called me stupid, idiot or any other possible superlatives (not directly, but indirectly. So, credit where is due;) ). So, how about I take my toys and leave... The only person having an Ego problem here is you mate. You can't grasp the idea that you talk "bollocks" and have no clue about it, just a faint idea and expect things to be different then they are. I just know when to back-off from a fight.
I am trying to help, yet your logic is flawed in certain place and then since there isn't anything else for you do to, you start twisting words and logic to your own benefit and keep "calling me different names", again indirectly. (While talking about different things is GOOD coming to a conclusion is also good, and I thought this was the reason behind the whole thread. There are things that aren't working as we expect or should, but in the same time is not a general thing. I was trying to show this for like the last few days...) THIS IS EXACTLY HOW A COMMUNITY WORKS MATE...NOT.
You have done basically zero for this community and yet your Ego has the nerve to call me idiot and stupid and whatnot over and over again. Congrats. Hope you will do more for this community from now on.
I can still do what I do and not needing to share with ingrates like you. Even easier for me :)
I will also maintain my contacts in different places, and I can guarantee you... You will not see any results with everything related to GPUs in the future (Just because I like to make it personal now) LOL... No, not really! I do hope you solve this issue and that you are right and I am wrong!
Also, you don't give a SHIT about how I feel, so stop with the "I am sorry you feel that way helifax." I actually feel relieved to finally close this.
Maybe you are right and I am wrong;) Is always good to have a new perspective on things;) But, is not good to make it absolute;)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
helifax, please, stop editing your post so much!
There is some kind of missunderstanding. Please read back through my posts and show me even one place where I call you either of those things. Please, just one.
I call myself stupid on multiple occasions in my own posts however, and not sarcastically.
Before you write me and this community off, please just have a read once. If you find even one instance, then I am humbly at your mercy.
In fact, if you can find even that one instance, I will delete My account, if you promise to stay. As you have said, I have contributed nothing recently to the community compared to you. The community doesn't need me. It needs you.
If I didn't care mate, I wouldn't spend hours of my precious free time writing replies to you personally explaining things to try and make you specifically understand. I would just ignore you. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference.
It's not about who is right and who is wrong, as in my above post. This isn't a pissing contest. But when you post claims which don't agree with reality, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to accept them blindly and not point them out in a thread I started about specific results?
What I don't understand is why you are collectively punishing the entire community if you are only mad at me?
The logical thing to do would be just to ignore me. What do you hope to accomplish?
Octavian, what exactly is it that you want?
:(
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
and Helifax's contributions are one of the most important this community has to offer. I'll be supremely pissed myself if this argument causes him to give up on this community forever, which is what its sounding like, and remove his substantial contributions for a fight about something I am also simply not seeing.
I'm kinda sick of the few ruining things for the rest of us.
You are rendering the same image twice, of course a moderate to large performance impact is to be expected.
I'm not seeing any difference since I first started using 3dvision, which is now years ago under three different hard ware revisions.
I suggest submitting your findings to Nvidia and let them decide if it's worth addressing and just chilling out a bit here.
i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
EVGA 1080TI SLI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
ASUS Z97-WS
3D Surround ASUS Rog Swift PG278Q(R), 2x PG278Q (yes it works)
Obutto R3volution.
Windows 10 pro 64x (Windows 7 Dual boot)
I'm also not convinced tis bug is present in other games other than GTAV, but I am interested in seeing results, if the procedures are done and explained correctly.
The main argument is one of the following should occur. (Please correct me if I'm wrong)
1) You should near 90-100% GPU Usage (GPU Bound) while other things are not utilized 100%
2) You should get near 90-100% CPU Usage (CPU Bound) ***This is what we are testing for while other things are not utilized 100%
3) You are Vsynced (Hitting 60 FPS, thus you are not utilizing 100% of CPU or GPU)
4) You are hitting an engine limit in game.
The goal of this is to see if the GTAV Bug is present in other games. This bug is that in 3D vision it uses only 3 cores (75% for each of the 4 cores is the maximum usage you'll see with a quad core processor like mine, meanwhile you're not getting 100% GPU Usage, or Hitting 60FPS)
While in 2D GTAV it uses like 6 or more cores. I am not convinced it's present in other games, as Deus Ex Mankind Divided was listed, but I get 90-100% usage in all 4 cores in both 2D and 3D.
I have tested the issue in GTAV and it is present with the 980 ti, 1070, 1080, Pascal Titan X. There's a whole thread about it, where Bo3b, and others have confirmed it in that game.
The goal should have been to get to a place in game and settings where you get 90-100% CPU usage in 2D.
Then you set the settings to 3D. The CPU Usage should still be 90-100% in that same location if the GPU usage is not near 100%. The GPU usage cannot go to near 100% or else you are GPU limiting the test since in 3D you render twice as many frames. You also can not go near the engine FPS limit or you are hitting the Engine limit.
I'm ishiki, forum screwed up my name.
7700k @4.7 GHZ, 16GBDDR4@3466MHZ, 2080 Ti
Let's get this straight: nothing is causing Helifax to make this decision other than himself. It's the same thing as a person who physically abuses their spouse and then says, "Look what you made me do!" No, no one makes you do anything. Your actions and decisions are entirely your own, so if he takes his fixes/wrappers down (which it seems like he already has started to) it's on no one but him.
I'm not taking sides on this matter (actually, I suppose by what I'm about to say I am, but I feel the situation calls for me to speak up), but this is definitely not the first time Helifax has threatened and/or actually proceeded to "take (his) toys and leave" (which as the term 'toys' implies, is a very childish and selfish act). How many times has this happened before, and how many times has everyone not only excused his behavior but also sided with Helifax (likely out of their own self-preservation instincts rather than actually having followed the situation from the beginning), when he was the one who actually instigated the fight in the first place? (despite him claiming he's not attacking the person and then prefacing his attacks with "not to be a dick", he does just that... well, sorry but just saying that doesn't actually give you the right to then proceed with doing it)
Yes, his contributions are extremely valuable, and as I've said before he'll always have my respect for them (unless he takes them away, in which case it's the exact opposite), but quite frankly I find his attitude towards others rather abrasive and condescending, and also look at this behavior as extortion. I get it: we're a small, close-knit community and we all (well, most of us) try to be positive and support one another, but to what extent do we keep accepting this? Do we not have enough dignity to call a person out, no matter how great a contributor they may be, on their bad behavior, rather than continuously pretending we're ok with it simply for the sake of keeping him happy so he doesn't storm off like a child? I for one, would rather not stand for it. Does this mean people will side with him against me too? Well, go right on ahead, but at least I won't turn my back and leave taking my toys with me. Those are gifts freely given, without any expectation or perceived ownership thereof, as they should be.
So Helifax, despite what I've just said and that we clearly have differing opinions on what we consider acceptable behaviour, I hope my example helps you make a change of heart and I urge you for the sake of the community (and yourself) to reconsider your position on retracting your contributions (I've already gotten everything I need from your site, so it doesn't affect me if you don't). Whether you continue to provide further fixes and support or not is a different story, and for your own sake (not mine or the community's. It would definitely be a significant loss for us) I would agree that maybe you should stop if you can't handle the stress involved with it (which clearly seems to be the case), and that's fine, you've earned your retirement! (maybe if you ask nicely we'll all chip in for a pension! lol :P) No one can say you haven't given your all up until now, and that's not enough, but don't go and tarnish all that by acting like a brat and taking it all away.
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I can't believe that Helifax would go mental over some silly argument. I've actually read through the posts in this thread and I I'm not sure who is right as personally I've always assumed that the GPU WILL run 99 or 100% unless their is some kind of bottleneck, which usually is a CPU core hitting 100%, or Vsync when you are hitting 60fps cap and your GPU has no reason to go any higher.
The last game (in 2D) that gave me a bottleneck was Abzu and it was indeed hitting 100% on one of my CPU cores and the GPU was only using about 40% usage.
But I'm also not that tech savvy and there may very well be a host of reason why the GPU will not hit 100%.
I don't understand why not just leave the issue alone if you are sure you're right, then just move on. This thing was taken way out of proportion, and I do find it shocking that Helifax would actually go and remove his fixs from his sight because he had an argument with one person!
I was also just about to start Doom again after a full system wipe, with my new Titan X Pascal but I forgot to back up the fix as I never would have imagined that it would be pulled by Helifax but it is indeed! All the fix's are gone!
Wondering if it would be possible for someone to host the Doom fix somewhere? PM me please as it's really a shame that Helifax would punish most of the people on here who were nice and supportive of him because he got into an argument about bottlenecking and GPU usage!
As to Helifax leaving. He has a right to take his stuff with him. That is his decision. You also have to keep in mind Programming takes a lot of time and effort. A lot of work goes in to the fixes that we see here. He feels disrespected.
After reading RAGEdemon post. I really don't see the problem your results show Minor bottle necking and this is to be expected. There is even minor bottle necking in Helifax results. In other words this is a non issue.
Helifax was right that it was a non issue to start with.
You can ether overclock your cpu and or mainly use DSR and use a larger in game resolution. If you really want to saturate your GPUS.
As for terintamel issue there is something wrong. I have a lesser CPU then He and a stronger GPU so my Bottle Neck should be more then his. But, I don't get the Hitching he shows in his video when 3D Vision is enabled.
My hardware is a 1055T OC to 3.999 GHz on all cores and a GTX 1070 stock. But, I play mostly at 4K where my processor becomes a non issue. But, I did try Terintamel setting in the game he wrote and I was unable to reproduce his problem.
My mobo is a crappy 970a krait that same board the Burst in to flames if you put a FX9590.......
So it may not be your processor. If I was a betting man I would Bet it's your gpu, mobo, or drivers with the combination of the other two.
which I took it personal as is a direct attack to my intelligence and knowledge.
In any case, I want to apologise for attacking him directly. I also think everyone else is right.
This stupid thing shouldn't affect the whole community which is small as it is. I'll revert the posts and put the webpages back, so nothing lost there.
But, in the same time, from now on I'll be more of a ghost here on these forums (this decision is made by me and like DJ-RK said, only I can decide this.) There are multiple reasons behind it and I will not talk about them here.
I also feel like instead of ending this discussion nicely, both parties got upset and parted ways in a not so nice manner. I don't like this. Thus, I will try to end this conversation with the things that I found (as a conclusion).
What everyone is doing with this is up to you.
Observed problem:
AMD/Intel CPU + Pascal GPUs, in certain scenarios:
GPU usage approx. 60%
CPU usage approx. 33-45%
Result low FPS, without neither the CPU or GPU being stressed or bottlenecked.
This is what it looks to be a driver/software issue inded.
Normal behaviour:
GPU usage approx. 99%
CPU usage should be anywhere up to 80-90% (otherwise there is a big problem).
As, I have shown it, this is the normal case and always been like this.
Another problem is the so-called CPU "running less" normal when 3D Vision is activated. This one is quite simple, but requires a bit of a back-story:
Games and drivers are multi-threaded. In order to pass information from one thread to another you need to use a synchronisation mechanism (be it mutexes, critical sections etc).
As an example:
You have: "int myValue;"
You have Thread1 & Thread2.
Both threads want to use "myValue".
In order to make it's value consistent you normally use a mutex lock around it.
Now, the actual execution is like this:
Thread1 wants to read myValue. Mutex is locked.
Thread2 wants to read myValue. Because Thread1 already has the mutex locked, Thread2 will wait until Thread1 finished using "myValue" and the mutex is released. Only then Thread2 will be able to access it.
This is a syncrhonisation mechanism. As a result a variable, etc can only be used BY ONE THREAD at a certain time. Everyone else will WAIT until that thread is finished.
(I didn't want to go into details in the above example, in order to show how things work in a simplified way.)
So, back to the problem. You have a render loop:
So, in 2D let's say thins render loop takes X amount of time to execute. CPU load will be 50% (based on the CPU Mhz and the X time, the load will be calculated).
In 3D when you render, because you need to render twice:
- You still have the same render loop. (The 3D Vision Automatic actually modifies it).
- Now you would think that the Begin/End loop from above will be executed 2 times. FALSE
- The above loop will be executed ONE TIME (bounding resources, etc) BUT the actual draw calls will be duplicated.
- As a result you get the GPU to work more and the CPU to WAIT MORE. (The CPU still thinks is rendering ONE frame and waits for the GPU to tell it is finished). Just by rendering two frames instead of one you can't simply put a linear division here. (Say we multiply this by 2 and divide this by 2). The execution time for both CPU and GPU is not linear.
As a result the X time required in 2D to run the Render Loop one time it will always be bigger than before.
Bigger "deltaT" between loop execution, the LOWER the CPU usage will be.
This is why you see a decrease in CPU usage. Again this is normal. You get one "time slice" in which the GPU needs to do more. As a result, the CPU will wait more for the GPU to finish.
Know that we understand this, look at my results and your results. You will see that they map perfectly fine.
Back to the problem with the low CPU+GPU usage on Pascal. There is definitely SOMETHING wrong! For some reason, both the CPU and GPU wait for something! (Remember about the mutexes and accessing stuff from different threads example?). I expect something waits for another thing, and the "another" thing waits for the "something" to finish. This is what is called a "dead-lock".
And what you describe there stinks of a form of dead-lock. Is not a "perfect" dead-lock as that would HALT your application, but something is definitely wrong.
Ofc, if you pair a Pentium 1 with a 980 you will never see the GPU saturated but you will see your CPU getting exhausted. Yet, what we see here (on the Pascal) is everyone just sitting close to idle... (While it works perfect for Maxwell and even people with Pascal GPUs.) So, this is definitely a problem!
Everything else works as expected. Without having the code to the 3D Vision Driver and doing some profiling we can't understand more than this as the exact reason why load is X on the CPU and Y on the GPU, but we already know how a multi-threaded application works.
Hope this explanation helps anyone and removes at least a "wall of fog" from the problem.
Also, one thing to mention:
A proper CPU bottleneck is when you exhaust your CPU and it works 100%. At this point you can get into some serious issues, including Kernel Panics and other ugly problems. (Although now with newer OSes is less likely to see this, even if you get here).
A proper GPU bottleneck is when you get inconsistent loads across it, as the parallelism is not working. (This is very very hard to find as is a synchronisation issue and can be caused by other system stability issues).
A GPU working 99% is not exhausted as you might think. You simply use it to it's max potential. You could argue that it is a bottleneck as if the GPU would be faster you could get better frames. And yes, you would. But even so, working at 99% it gives you CONSISTENT results without affecting the integrity of the system stability.
A GPU is designed to sustain workloads of 99%. This is the normal behaviour!
Cheers!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)