[quote name='photios' date='23 March 2011 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1300908811' post='1212205']
chiz,
Thanks again for the response. Rather than continue to argue my point based on 2 year old knowledge when I built my i7/X58/QUAD-SLI machine, can you give me one game that you know of for sure that encodes dolby digital natively? I pretty much own everything, so I'd like to try it out and correct my thinking here using my onboard audio instead of the AZ HT HD.
Taking your argument to be true, then we will be at the mercy of the game dev to ensure that they encode the in game sound system correctly. I guess, that's not too bad considering that as technology advances, to NOT encode the sound correctly would probably be unthinkable. I guess that's best kind of assurance we could have. Anyways, having said that, you may very well be correct that this might be the last discrete "badass" soundcard we ever buy.
Best,
photios
[/quote]
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
[list]
[*]1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
[*]2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
[*]3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
[*]4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
[*]5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
[*]6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
[/list]
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
[quote name='photios' date='23 March 2011 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1300908811' post='1212205']
chiz,
Thanks again for the response. Rather than continue to argue my point based on 2 year old knowledge when I built my i7/X58/QUAD-SLI machine, can you give me one game that you know of for sure that encodes dolby digital natively? I pretty much own everything, so I'd like to try it out and correct my thinking here using my onboard audio instead of the AZ HT HD.
Taking your argument to be true, then we will be at the mercy of the game dev to ensure that they encode the in game sound system correctly. I guess, that's not too bad considering that as technology advances, to NOT encode the sound correctly would probably be unthinkable. I guess that's best kind of assurance we could have. Anyways, having said that, you may very well be correct that this might be the last discrete "badass" soundcard we ever buy.
Best,
photios
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1300914637' post='1212269']
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
[list]
[*]1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
[*]2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
[*]3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
[*]4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
[*]5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
[*]6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
[/list]
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
[/quote]
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1300914637' post='1212269']
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
I used to have the A7N8X with SoundStorm too. DTS Live Connect was great for EAX games back in the day when we only had SPDIF Receivers.
But now, with games outputting multi-channel LPCM over HDMI, there is no point in having DTS Connect or DD Live encoding anymore. What would you want to re-encode to a lossy format when you can have unadulterated multi-channel LPCM?
AFAIK, the HDMI on Geforce 4XX and 5XX supports the Bitstreaming of the old DTS and DD codecs, and LPCM. That is sufficient for every modern game that stopped using EAX trash.
Ok, guys, now we are all getting off-topic, bordering on thread hi-jacking lets get back to the original discussion.
ManuelG might miss the messages regarding the original topic with so many other unrelated messages being posted here.
This thread is about nVidia 3D Vision + HD Bitstreaming.
So lets get back on topic.
Below is a repost of my reply to ManuelG in case it was missed
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
[/quote]
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
I used to have the A7N8X with SoundStorm too. DTS Live Connect was great for EAX games back in the day when we only had SPDIF Receivers.
But now, with games outputting multi-channel LPCM over HDMI, there is no point in having DTS Connect or DD Live encoding anymore. What would you want to re-encode to a lossy format when you can have unadulterated multi-channel LPCM?
AFAIK, the HDMI on Geforce 4XX and 5XX supports the Bitstreaming of the old DTS and DD codecs, and LPCM. That is sufficient for every modern game that stopped using EAX trash.
Ok, guys, now we are all getting off-topic, bordering on thread hi-jacking lets get back to the original discussion.
ManuelG might miss the messages regarding the original topic with so many other unrelated messages being posted here.
This thread is about nVidia 3D Vision + HD Bitstreaming.
So lets get back on topic.
Below is a repost of my reply to ManuelG in case it was missed
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
[quote name='photios' date='23 March 2011 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1300917263' post='1212280']
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
[/quote]
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1300920060' post='1212290']
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
[/quote]
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
[quote name='photios' date='23 March 2011 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1300917263' post='1212280']
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1300920060' post='1212290']
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1300921992' post='1212310']My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
[/quote]
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
[/quote]
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1300921992' post='1212310']My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1300925166' post='1212337']
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[/quote]
Your GPU's EDID info would still be passed over DVI to HDMI converter to the Asus which would then repeat it to your receiver. If the software player is using your GPU's EDID for video/audio capability only in 3D Vision mode then that may be why its limiting it to 8ch LPCM. Easiest way to verify would be to find someone with the same Asus sound card, TMT and a GTX 460/560 and see if they're able to pass 3D Vision checkerboard and HD bitstream to your receiver.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1300925166' post='1212337']
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
Your GPU's EDID info would still be passed over DVI to HDMI converter to the Asus which would then repeat it to your receiver. If the software player is using your GPU's EDID for video/audio capability only in 3D Vision mode then that may be why its limiting it to 8ch LPCM. Easiest way to verify would be to find someone with the same Asus sound card, TMT and a GTX 460/560 and see if they're able to pass 3D Vision checkerboard and HD bitstream to your receiver.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1300921992' post='1212310']
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
[/quote]
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
[quote name='chiz' date='23 March 2011 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1300921992' post='1212310']
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
[quote]Video processor
Now, we are not going to explain PureVideo all over again but FERMI based graphics cards, thus GeForce series 400/500, have the latest model video processor embedded, which actually is similar to the one used in the GT220/240/ION2 regarding video capabilities. The VP4 engine now also supports MPEG-4 ASP (MPEG-4 Part 2) (Divx, Xvid) decoding in hardware as an improvement over the previous VP3 engine such as those used in ION based systems.
In short, NVIDIA can offload the decoding of pretty much any MPEG format, the only thing not supported is MPEG-1 which I doubt anyone still uses. What is also good to mention is that HDMI audio has finally been solved. [b]The stupid S/PDIF cable to connect a card to an audio codec, to retrieve sound over HDMI is gone. That also entails that NVIDIA is not bound to two channel LPCM or 5.1 channel DD/DTS for audio.[/b]
[b]Passing on audio over the PCIe bus[/b] brings along enhanced support for multiple formats. So VP4 can now support 8 channel LPCM, lossless format DD+ and 6 channel AAC. Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio bit streaming are not yet supported in software, yet in hardware they are (needs a driver update).[/quote]
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
Video processor
Now, we are not going to explain PureVideo all over again but FERMI based graphics cards, thus GeForce series 400/500, have the latest model video processor embedded, which actually is similar to the one used in the GT220/240/ION2 regarding video capabilities. The VP4 engine now also supports MPEG-4 ASP (MPEG-4 Part 2) (Divx, Xvid) decoding in hardware as an improvement over the previous VP3 engine such as those used in ION based systems.
In short, NVIDIA can offload the decoding of pretty much any MPEG format, the only thing not supported is MPEG-1 which I doubt anyone still uses. What is also good to mention is that HDMI audio has finally been solved. The stupid S/PDIF cable to connect a card to an audio codec, to retrieve sound over HDMI is gone. That also entails that NVIDIA is not bound to two channel LPCM or 5.1 channel DD/DTS for audio.
Passing on audio over the PCIe bus brings along enhanced support for multiple formats. So VP4 can now support 8 channel LPCM, lossless format DD+ and 6 channel AAC. Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio bit streaming are not yet supported in software, yet in hardware they are (needs a driver update).
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
[/quote]
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
[/quote]
While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
[/quote]
I'm curious, for the TWO DVI solution you mentioned. Do you use display clone or do you actually use extended desktop. If you use extended desktop, isn't it annoying to have things like your cursor getting lost in the other desktop connected to the Receiver?
Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
I'm curious, for the TWO DVI solution you mentioned. Do you use display clone or do you actually use extended desktop. If you use extended desktop, isn't it annoying to have things like your cursor getting lost in the other desktop connected to the Receiver?
Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
[quote name='klau1' date='24 March 2011 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1300980804' post='1212581']
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?[/quote]
Not totally. What I mean is that I play any game old or modern using EAX. If the game is native EAX, then the X-fi chip on the AZ handles that normally (e.g. Doom 3). If not an EAX game, thus a modern one or perhaps a very old game, the X-fi chip reencodes the signal with EAX effects. Giving the sound some qualities that it did not have in standard solutions. This is why I'm still a sucker for the hardware solution. If I know that something produces a tad better sound (or in some cases a lot better sound), I usually go and buy it. lol.
[quote]Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
[/quote]
Yes you can do it without SLI. I was doing this before I had my 2nd GTX 295. You can do either Clone or Extended desktop though I noticed I had some issues in clone and so I like Extended desktop better. To keep your mouse in Desktop #1, use a program called Ultramon, you can setup pre-set hot-keys for keeping your mouse in Desktop 1, moving windows instantly to one desktop to another, etc. Very handy little program. Though Ultramon is more useful for a True Extended Desktop with Multiple Displays, it serves the need of our purposes.
BTW-I've done the chain method too. And I WOULD prefer that, except that my Receiver blocks certain resolutions. It will ONLY allow 480p, 1280p, 1080p to go through it on its way to the TV. As I described somewhere else above, if game only display at say 1280x1024 or 1024x768 or even 800x600, I get a black screen using the single line chain method. Hence, I'm stuck with Extended Desktop for a complete solution until A) I get a different receiver that can do true pass through and then do the EDID hack, or B) We see some hardware cleanup in the industry as chez and I have been discussing.
But I guess I'm content for the moment, what I have is functional.
[quote name='klau1' date='24 March 2011 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1300980804' post='1212581']
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
Not totally. What I mean is that I play any game old or modern using EAX. If the game is native EAX, then the X-fi chip on the AZ handles that normally (e.g. Doom 3). If not an EAX game, thus a modern one or perhaps a very old game, the X-fi chip reencodes the signal with EAX effects. Giving the sound some qualities that it did not have in standard solutions. This is why I'm still a sucker for the hardware solution. If I know that something produces a tad better sound (or in some cases a lot better sound), I usually go and buy it. lol.
Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
Yes you can do it without SLI. I was doing this before I had my 2nd GTX 295. You can do either Clone or Extended desktop though I noticed I had some issues in clone and so I like Extended desktop better. To keep your mouse in Desktop #1, use a program called Ultramon, you can setup pre-set hot-keys for keeping your mouse in Desktop 1, moving windows instantly to one desktop to another, etc. Very handy little program. Though Ultramon is more useful for a True Extended Desktop with Multiple Displays, it serves the need of our purposes.
BTW-I've done the chain method too. And I WOULD prefer that, except that my Receiver blocks certain resolutions. It will ONLY allow 480p, 1280p, 1080p to go through it on its way to the TV. As I described somewhere else above, if game only display at say 1280x1024 or 1024x768 or even 800x600, I get a black screen using the single line chain method. Hence, I'm stuck with Extended Desktop for a complete solution until A) I get a different receiver that can do true pass through and then do the EDID hack, or B) We see some hardware cleanup in the industry as chez and I have been discussing.
But I guess I'm content for the moment, what I have is functional.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1300936581' post='1212392']
interesting hypothesis. Did they include bitstream in the GT240? thats the only card with HDMI I have on hand for test.
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
[/quote]
Unfortunately not, I believe the GT240 supports the same formats as your GF110-based 570 and only 8ch LPCM for HD audio. If you had an older card like a GTX 200 series or prior then you could also test going the other way and see if TMT further deprecates audio capability by removing 8ch LPCM support on cards that do not support it. Also, you are not bound to cards with HDMI outputs, any of the cards that support audio output (even the GTX 200 series that use spdif passthrough) have DVI outputs that are pin compatible with HDMI and capable of passing audio through a DVI to HDMI adapter.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1300936581' post='1212392']
interesting hypothesis. Did they include bitstream in the GT240? thats the only card with HDMI I have on hand for test.
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
Unfortunately not, I believe the GT240 supports the same formats as your GF110-based 570 and only 8ch LPCM for HD audio. If you had an older card like a GTX 200 series or prior then you could also test going the other way and see if TMT further deprecates audio capability by removing 8ch LPCM support on cards that do not support it. Also, you are not bound to cards with HDMI outputs, any of the cards that support audio output (even the GTX 200 series that use spdif passthrough) have DVI outputs that are pin compatible with HDMI and capable of passing audio through a DVI to HDMI adapter.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
[/quote]
Ah yeah, I'd certainly still go for the HT HD with a 200 series card, sorry didn't realize you were using 295s.
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s? I've generally found scaling to be excellent in just 2-way SLI with or without 3D Vision, but once you start looking at a 3rd GPU or more, things start falling apart greatly whether its due to CPU or driver limitations. I guess I could see the need for more than 2x high-end GPUs with 3D Vision Surround set-ups, but for most recent games at 1080p in S3D I've had few games that required more than 2x480s.
I remember there were some inefficiencies in how GPUs render in SLI and 3D Vision which became even more problematic once you got to higher resolutions with 3D Vision surround. Basically each GPU was rendering both L and R eye images sequentially instead of handing them off to each successive GPU. I'd imagine that's why Quad-SLI performance was so bad back then, as there may have been no benefit for those 3rd and 4th GPUs to render 2x sequential images over just having the 1st and 2nd GPUs render them. In any case, hopefully they've worked out Quad-SLI 3D Vision performance, sadly most reviews do not bother to test 3D Vision performance for obvious reasons. That'll certainly be a killer set-up though so hope it works out for you.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1300979153' post='1212561']
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
[/quote]
Ah yes, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the audio signal was passed from one audio codec/device to another over the PCIe bus instead of an spdif cable. But ya audio data is passed over PCIe from the CPU/memory to the GPU's onboard sound similar to any audio data passing over the PCIe bus to a discrete sound card or onboard MB sound solution.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
Ah yeah, I'd certainly still go for the HT HD with a 200 series card, sorry didn't realize you were using 295s.
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s? I've generally found scaling to be excellent in just 2-way SLI with or without 3D Vision, but once you start looking at a 3rd GPU or more, things start falling apart greatly whether its due to CPU or driver limitations. I guess I could see the need for more than 2x high-end GPUs with 3D Vision Surround set-ups, but for most recent games at 1080p in S3D I've had few games that required more than 2x480s.
I remember there were some inefficiencies in how GPUs render in SLI and 3D Vision which became even more problematic once you got to higher resolutions with 3D Vision surround. Basically each GPU was rendering both L and R eye images sequentially instead of handing them off to each successive GPU. I'd imagine that's why Quad-SLI performance was so bad back then, as there may have been no benefit for those 3rd and 4th GPUs to render 2x sequential images over just having the 1st and 2nd GPUs render them. In any case, hopefully they've worked out Quad-SLI 3D Vision performance, sadly most reviews do not bother to test 3D Vision performance for obvious reasons. That'll certainly be a killer set-up though so hope it works out for you.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1300979153' post='1212561']
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
Ah yes, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the audio signal was passed from one audio codec/device to another over the PCIe bus instead of an spdif cable. But ya audio data is passed over PCIe from the CPU/memory to the GPU's onboard sound similar to any audio data passing over the PCIe bus to a discrete sound card or onboard MB sound solution.
[quote name='klau1' date='24 March 2011 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1300980804' post='1212581']
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off. [/quote]
You can do either encode to DTS/DD or straight out with EAX effects over HDMI with LPCM. Personally I prefer straight out over LPCM because DD and DTS encodes are compressed to DD/DTS wrappers which are much lower bitrates than uncompressed LPCM. Again, questionable benefit with 16/48 and 16/44.1 source material but I can notice the difference even on my modest set-up. But ya that's the main benefit of the HT HD currently even with 8ch LPCM, you still get EAX and EQ sound field treatments processed by the X-Fi before any compression and can also output without any compression over HDMI.
That's the main gripe I have with the current onboard solutions though, the lack of EQ control and additional EAX effects. You can certainly compensate for the DTS' deeper bass by just adjusting the EQ settings in the X-Fi control panel, but you can't do that when going straight from a game's software mixer to the GPU because Nvidia's onboard doesn't have any settings I can see. Maybe the Realtek solutions offer some EQ settings for their solutions?
[quote]While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. [b]It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware. [/b]
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.[/quote]
Bold portion isn't entirely true, Creative licensed EAX to numerous OEM MB and laptop manufacturers that were supported on non-Creative chipsets, Sigmatel, ADI, even Realtek chipsets. Some even turned them into daughter/riser cards like Asus' SupremeFX X-Fi card. If you dig around, you can even find people getting X-Fi software to work on Realtek chipsets and boards that haven't licensed EAX.
As for the rest of the anti-Creative sentiment, like photios I'm also greatly appreciative of what Creative and SoundBlaster has done for PC gaming audio over the years. I can remember what my PC sounded like before my first SoundBlaster (beeps and buzzes, no voices supported) and I can also remember how miserable onboard analog sound was (and still is). Only recently with the advent of uncompressed digital output over HDMI along with multi-channel surround mixed in software has onboard sound become a viable solution over a discrete sound card. The software bloat was largely unnecessary btw, but just going to a custom install and only installing the EAX Control Panel, Driver and Sound Volume Tray (optional also) gave you everything you needed for full functionality.
Not going to spend much time on the open vs. proprietary argument, but I would generally lean toward the supported/proprietary solutions over the unsupported/open solutions as you generally get a better product and end-user experience. Here's just a short list, please tell me honestly which you prefer for gaming as an end-user/consumer:
Windows vs. Linux
DirectX vs. OpenGL
3D Vision vs. Open3D
EAX vs. ??????
I can already tell you the benefits of EAX created a lasting legacy of superior sound quality in the overwhelming majority of games prior to DX10 that lasted well over a decade. I can honestly say any game I owned that supported EAX was greatly enhanced by a Creative SoundBlaster card, so to me Creative is always going to be held in high esteem even if they've had some missteps along the way.
[quote name='klau1' date='24 March 2011 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1300980804' post='1212581']
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
You can do either encode to DTS/DD or straight out with EAX effects over HDMI with LPCM. Personally I prefer straight out over LPCM because DD and DTS encodes are compressed to DD/DTS wrappers which are much lower bitrates than uncompressed LPCM. Again, questionable benefit with 16/48 and 16/44.1 source material but I can notice the difference even on my modest set-up. But ya that's the main benefit of the HT HD currently even with 8ch LPCM, you still get EAX and EQ sound field treatments processed by the X-Fi before any compression and can also output without any compression over HDMI.
That's the main gripe I have with the current onboard solutions though, the lack of EQ control and additional EAX effects. You can certainly compensate for the DTS' deeper bass by just adjusting the EQ settings in the X-Fi control panel, but you can't do that when going straight from a game's software mixer to the GPU because Nvidia's onboard doesn't have any settings I can see. Maybe the Realtek solutions offer some EQ settings for their solutions?
While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.
Bold portion isn't entirely true, Creative licensed EAX to numerous OEM MB and laptop manufacturers that were supported on non-Creative chipsets, Sigmatel, ADI, even Realtek chipsets. Some even turned them into daughter/riser cards like Asus' SupremeFX X-Fi card. If you dig around, you can even find people getting X-Fi software to work on Realtek chipsets and boards that haven't licensed EAX.
As for the rest of the anti-Creative sentiment, like photios I'm also greatly appreciative of what Creative and SoundBlaster has done for PC gaming audio over the years. I can remember what my PC sounded like before my first SoundBlaster (beeps and buzzes, no voices supported) and I can also remember how miserable onboard analog sound was (and still is). Only recently with the advent of uncompressed digital output over HDMI along with multi-channel surround mixed in software has onboard sound become a viable solution over a discrete sound card. The software bloat was largely unnecessary btw, but just going to a custom install and only installing the EAX Control Panel, Driver and Sound Volume Tray (optional also) gave you everything you needed for full functionality.
Not going to spend much time on the open vs. proprietary argument, but I would generally lean toward the supported/proprietary solutions over the unsupported/open solutions as you generally get a better product and end-user experience. Here's just a short list, please tell me honestly which you prefer for gaming as an end-user/consumer:
Windows vs. Linux
DirectX vs. OpenGL
3D Vision vs. Open3D
EAX vs. ??????
I can already tell you the benefits of EAX created a lasting legacy of superior sound quality in the overwhelming majority of games prior to DX10 that lasted well over a decade. I can honestly say any game I owned that supported EAX was greatly enhanced by a Creative SoundBlaster card, so to me Creative is always going to be held in high esteem even if they've had some missteps along the way.
[quote name='chiz' date='24 March 2011 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1300987603' post='1212636']
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s?[/quote]
chiz,
Just to go way off topic here (lol)...here's the reasoning:
1) I bought my GTX 295 co-op's a good 1 year and 2 mos before the inception of GTX 480. I was using QUAD-SLI in 2D before I ever got into 3D Vision. I wanted the best card I could get and at that time 3D vision was pretty much limited to using a single card anyways. They started adding 3-way SLI and QUAD SLI later.
2) As of right now, GTX 295 QUAD SLI shows some huge muscle in DX10 with 3D Vision. I can max out Metro 2033 with DX10 and have great scaling 85% and above. I'm running 45 frames or higher in 3D Vision @ 1080p checkerboard. That's not DX11...but that is something.
3) When GTX 480 came out, it offered me little performance over what I have and sometimes none at all. Even GTX 580 isn't ENOUGH of a performance gap for me to justify the cost of upgrading.
4) The fact that QUAD SLI works right on DX10 is evidence enough to me that Nvidia has a driver bug problem with DX9 and instead of me just caving in and opting for a single gpu SLI solution, I'd rather beat my chest and have the fix, which is what I've been doing and finally I think I've made some progress.
5) GTX 590 stands in a unique light over GTX 295. GTX 295 was two GTX 275 GPU's clocked at GTX 260 speeds, but it wasn't using the GTX 285 GPU as a point of departure. GTX 590 on the other hand, uses two GTX 580 GPUs albeit clocked lower. As a cost upgrade solution, it'll be cheaper to just buy One single GTX 590 rather than opt to buy two GTX 580's.
6) Now that Nvidia GTX 590 is on the table, it offers me another reason to complain about QUAD SLI, since it suffers from all the DX9 problems that the GTX 295 QUAD SLI setup has. They were able to brush aside the 295 when the DX11 cards came out, but they can't now, not with their best card out. They MUST address the issue and fix it head on, and finally put the problem to rest.
7) Well I'm just a sucker for that dual gpu card. I think they are really cool. 3-way SLI is cool too, but you are talking about more power consumption, overall less performance (in theory), and more cost to buy 3 cards over two cards. As far as I see it, just fix the dang drivers as they are fixed on DX10/295/QuadSLI.
8) In hindsight, I might have done this all different. But now with GTX 590 out, getting GTX 580 SLI would make no sense. Of course, one could make the argument that QUAD SLI doesn't justify the cost either. I think PC gaming can take advantage of it (Metro 2033, maxed out DX11 certainly would) if they would just get their drivers right with it from the start.
[quote name='chiz' date='24 March 2011 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1300987603' post='1212636']
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s?
chiz,
Just to go way off topic here (lol)...here's the reasoning:
1) I bought my GTX 295 co-op's a good 1 year and 2 mos before the inception of GTX 480. I was using QUAD-SLI in 2D before I ever got into 3D Vision. I wanted the best card I could get and at that time 3D vision was pretty much limited to using a single card anyways. They started adding 3-way SLI and QUAD SLI later.
2) As of right now, GTX 295 QUAD SLI shows some huge muscle in DX10 with 3D Vision. I can max out Metro 2033 with DX10 and have great scaling 85% and above. I'm running 45 frames or higher in 3D Vision @ 1080p checkerboard. That's not DX11...but that is something.
3) When GTX 480 came out, it offered me little performance over what I have and sometimes none at all. Even GTX 580 isn't ENOUGH of a performance gap for me to justify the cost of upgrading.
4) The fact that QUAD SLI works right on DX10 is evidence enough to me that Nvidia has a driver bug problem with DX9 and instead of me just caving in and opting for a single gpu SLI solution, I'd rather beat my chest and have the fix, which is what I've been doing and finally I think I've made some progress.
5) GTX 590 stands in a unique light over GTX 295. GTX 295 was two GTX 275 GPU's clocked at GTX 260 speeds, but it wasn't using the GTX 285 GPU as a point of departure. GTX 590 on the other hand, uses two GTX 580 GPUs albeit clocked lower. As a cost upgrade solution, it'll be cheaper to just buy One single GTX 590 rather than opt to buy two GTX 580's.
6) Now that Nvidia GTX 590 is on the table, it offers me another reason to complain about QUAD SLI, since it suffers from all the DX9 problems that the GTX 295 QUAD SLI setup has. They were able to brush aside the 295 when the DX11 cards came out, but they can't now, not with their best card out. They MUST address the issue and fix it head on, and finally put the problem to rest.
7) Well I'm just a sucker for that dual gpu card. I think they are really cool. 3-way SLI is cool too, but you are talking about more power consumption, overall less performance (in theory), and more cost to buy 3 cards over two cards. As far as I see it, just fix the dang drivers as they are fixed on DX10/295/QuadSLI.
8) In hindsight, I might have done this all different. But now with GTX 590 out, getting GTX 580 SLI would make no sense. Of course, one could make the argument that QUAD SLI doesn't justify the cost either. I think PC gaming can take advantage of it (Metro 2033, maxed out DX11 certainly would) if they would just get their drivers right with it from the start.
chiz,
Thanks again for the response. Rather than continue to argue my point based on 2 year old knowledge when I built my i7/X58/QUAD-SLI machine, can you give me one game that you know of for sure that encodes dolby digital natively? I pretty much own everything, so I'd like to try it out and correct my thinking here using my onboard audio instead of the AZ HT HD.
Taking your argument to be true, then we will be at the mercy of the game dev to ensure that they encode the in game sound system correctly. I guess, that's not too bad considering that as technology advances, to NOT encode the sound correctly would probably be unthinkable. I guess that's best kind of assurance we could have. Anyways, having said that, you may very well be correct that this might be the last discrete "badass" soundcard we ever buy.
Best,
photios
[/quote]
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
[list]
[*]1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
[*]2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
[*]3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
[*]4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
[*]5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
[*]6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
[/list]
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
chiz,
Thanks again for the response. Rather than continue to argue my point based on 2 year old knowledge when I built my i7/X58/QUAD-SLI machine, can you give me one game that you know of for sure that encodes dolby digital natively? I pretty much own everything, so I'd like to try it out and correct my thinking here using my onboard audio instead of the AZ HT HD.
Taking your argument to be true, then we will be at the mercy of the game dev to ensure that they encode the in game sound system correctly. I guess, that's not too bad considering that as technology advances, to NOT encode the sound correctly would probably be unthinkable. I guess that's best kind of assurance we could have. Anyways, having said that, you may very well be correct that this might be the last discrete "badass" soundcard we ever buy.
Best,
photios
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
[list]
[*]1) Install latest HD Audio drivers in the latest driver package if you haven't already.
[*]2) Open up Windows Audio CP and set "Nvidia High Definition Audio" as default sound device.
[*]3) Click on Configure, if you only see 2 channel Stereo then you need to check your AVR settings.
[*]4) Here's the curve ball, if your Receiver has a "TV+AMP" setting for HDMI you need to change it to "AMP" only, otherwise the EDID info from your TV/LCD is passed to the graphics card which determines audio capability from that. Once you tell the receiver to only pass its own EDID info to the GPU, then you should get the option for full 5.1 or 7.1 audio and whatever encoding formats your receiver supports.
[*]5) Start up RE5 and you should get your multi-channel decoder light to pop up on your receiver. Just run any of the benchmarks and you'll quickly notice all positional and surround effects are coming from the proper channel, gun shots going off behind you, zombies splattering, etc.
[*]6) You can open up the properties and also choose higher bit depth/rates up to 24/192 and your receiver should reflect the higher sampling rate (mine shows 192kHZ)
[/list]
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
[/quote]
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
Heya photios, np, you can check out Resident Evil 5. I just double-checked and verified multi-channel positional surround works in that game perfectly. Here's the steps you need to take to get it to work, took me a few minutes of troubleshooting to re-trace the steps I took to get it to work a few months ago.
But ya I was pretty surprised it worked so flawlessly, its still a recently new development however since the GTX 400 series were the first high-end Nvidia cards to support limited HD Audio over HDMI (some of the lower-end GT2x0s and mGPU parts did sooner). I also think Vista/Win 7 scrapping DirectSound really paved the way for the software mixing/encoding we see in games now, so pretty much any newer game that doesn't require HW acceleration but still supports multi-channel sound will support multi-channel positional surround sound over Nvidia's HDMI solution.
Discrete sound cards still have their uses, especially the HT HD which can handle everything we've talked about one way or another, but again, I think that list of supported features is becoming smaller and smaller with each new generation of onboard sound solutions and games to the point I probably won't bother with a discrete sound card after this one. I guess the main attraction of a discrete card is still the analog outputs or headphone amps, but for users like us that go straight to an AVR these aren't really necessary anymore.
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
But now, with games outputting multi-channel LPCM over HDMI, there is no point in having DTS Connect or DD Live encoding anymore. What would you want to re-encode to a lossy format when you can have unadulterated multi-channel LPCM?
AFAIK, the HDMI on Geforce 4XX and 5XX supports the Bitstreaming of the old DTS and DD codecs, and LPCM. That is sufficient for every modern game that stopped using EAX trash.
Ok, guys, now we are all getting off-topic, bordering on thread hi-jacking lets get back to the original discussion.
ManuelG might miss the messages regarding the original topic with so many other unrelated messages being posted here.
This thread is about nVidia 3D Vision + HD Bitstreaming.
So lets get back on topic.
Below is a repost of my reply to ManuelG in case it was missed
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
[/quote]
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
But now, with games outputting multi-channel LPCM over HDMI, there is no point in having DTS Connect or DD Live encoding anymore. What would you want to re-encode to a lossy format when you can have unadulterated multi-channel LPCM?
AFAIK, the HDMI on Geforce 4XX and 5XX supports the Bitstreaming of the old DTS and DD codecs, and LPCM. That is sufficient for every modern game that stopped using EAX trash.
Ok, guys, now we are all getting off-topic, bordering on thread hi-jacking lets get back to the original discussion.
ManuelG might miss the messages regarding the original topic with so many other unrelated messages being posted here.
This thread is about nVidia 3D Vision + HD Bitstreaming.
So lets get back on topic.
Below is a repost of my reply to ManuelG in case it was missed
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
Environment:
1. CPU : Intel i5 2500K
2. Graphics card driver version: Nvidia GTX570 280.26
3. Sound card and driver version : Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim 7.12.8.1792
4. Motherboard: Asus P8P67
5. Monitor model and name: Samsung 3D LED DLP HL67A750
6. Connector. (HDMI? VGA? DVI?): DVI>HDMI (see "Video Card CONNECTION" below for details)
7. Screen resolution and refresh rate : 1920X1080 60Hz
8. Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR876
9. TMT: 3.0.1.185
10: 3D mode: nVidia 3D Vision (generic dlp mode)
11. OS: Windows 7 x64
Video Card CONNECTION:
GPU DVI1 > TV HDMI 3
GPU DVI2 > Xonar HDMI Soundcard > AV Receiver > TV HDMI 2
Installed EDID Hack (for those that have a non 3d AV receiver) @ http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191096
Installed UltraMon (tested on 3.1) (this is to simulate Desktop Clone and keep mouse on one monitor)
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
[/quote]
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1300920060' post='1212290']
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
[/quote]
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
Hmmm...I wonder if my GTX 295 using the 2pin SPDIF cable to the motherboard jumper which allows streaming of the audio over the DVI-HDMI cable will still be an issue. I thought the uniqueness of the 470/480 as far as audio was concerned over the GTX 260-295 was solely that this was handled over the PCI-E bus instead of the silly passthrough cable, but if there is still an added feature of bitstreaming 5.1 DD (assuming the software is coded for his in your RE5 example) that the 400 series has then this still won't work for my setup without the newer GPU. Then the 460 is even more discrete which allows lossless audio formats for bluray.
I wonder if I need a 400 series card to accomplish the task as you suggest.
I'll report back and let you know my own findings.
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
[quote name='klau1' date='23 March 2011 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1300920060' post='1212290']
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
[/quote]
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
[/quote]
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[quote name='ManuelG' date='22 March 2011 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1300818385' post='1211745']
Our software team has asked if you could possibly repeat the same test but instead use the NVIDIA HDMI audio instead of the Asus sound card to see if this issue reproduces. Technically speaking, this should work.
Thanks for getting back to me.
yes, I have tried nVidia HDMI. It does not support bitstreaming of HD codecs (ie: DTS Master). The nVidia HDMI can support LPCM & 3D, but so does Asus. LPCM + 3D working doesn't address the point of this thread.
The point of this thread is to get Bitstreaming of HD Audio + 3D working. Only Asus and Auzentech and ATi cards are capable of this. I have the Asus sound card.
If it helps your diagnostics, I have tested TMT's native DLP CHECKERBOARD mode setting and that results in 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming working. However, I don't have native 3D glasses for my DLP TV, I have 3D Vision Glasses instead, so TMT's direct CHECKERBOARD mode will not work for me.
Because I purchased nVidia's 3D Vision kit, I need to set TMT to 3D Vision mode, and let 3D Vision handle the CHECKERBOARD mode. But when I set TMT to nVidia 3D Vision, 3D + HD Audio Bitstreaming fails. Specifically, the HD Audio Bitstreaming fails.
Environment:
1. CPU : Intel i5 2500K
2. Graphics card driver version: Nvidia GTX570 280.26
3. Sound card and driver version : Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim 7.12.8.1792
4. Motherboard: Asus P8P67
5. Monitor model and name: Samsung 3D LED DLP HL67A750
6. Connector. (HDMI? VGA? DVI?): DVI>HDMI (see "Video Card CONNECTION" below for details)
7. Screen resolution and refresh rate : 1920X1080 60Hz
8. Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR876
9. TMT: 3.0.1.185
10: 3D mode: nVidia 3D Vision (generic dlp mode)
11. OS: Windows 7 x64
Video Card CONNECTION:
GPU DVI1 > TV HDMI 3
GPU DVI2 > Xonar HDMI Soundcard > AV Receiver > TV HDMI 2
Installed EDID Hack (for those that have a non 3d AV receiver) @ http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191096
Installed UltraMon (tested on 3.1) (this is to simulate Desktop Clone and keep mouse on one monitor)
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
[/quote]
Your GPU's EDID info would still be passed over DVI to HDMI converter to the Asus which would then repeat it to your receiver. If the software player is using your GPU's EDID for video/audio capability only in 3D Vision mode then that may be why its limiting it to 8ch LPCM. Easiest way to verify would be to find someone with the same Asus sound card, TMT and a GTX 460/560 and see if they're able to pass 3D Vision checkerboard and HD bitstream to your receiver.
probably not, because I'm no longer using nvidia's HDMI. I'm using DVI to Asus soundcard to receiver.
So 570's audio capabilities in this setup is not a factor.
Your GPU's EDID info would still be passed over DVI to HDMI converter to the Asus which would then repeat it to your receiver. If the software player is using your GPU's EDID for video/audio capability only in 3D Vision mode then that may be why its limiting it to 8ch LPCM. Easiest way to verify would be to find someone with the same Asus sound card, TMT and a GTX 460/560 and see if they're able to pass 3D Vision checkerboard and HD bitstream to your receiver.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
Environment:
1. CPU : Intel i5 2500K
2. Graphics card driver version: Nvidia GTX570 280.26
3. Sound card and driver version : Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim 7.12.8.1792
4. Motherboard: Asus P8P67
5. Monitor model and name: Samsung 3D LED DLP HL67A750
6. Connector. (HDMI? VGA? DVI?): DVI>HDMI (see "Video Card CONNECTION" below for details)
7. Screen resolution and refresh rate : 1920X1080 60Hz
8. Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR876
9. TMT: 3.0.1.185
10: 3D mode: nVidia 3D Vision (generic dlp mode)
11. OS: Windows 7 x64
Video Card CONNECTION:
GPU DVI1 > TV HDMI 3
GPU DVI2 > Xonar HDMI Soundcard > AV Receiver > TV HDMI 2
Installed EDID Hack (for those that have a non 3d AV receiver) @ http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191096
Installed UltraMon (tested on 3.1) (this is to simulate Desktop Clone and keep mouse on one monitor)
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
[/quote]
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
Hmmm I didn't realize you were still on spdif with those GT200 solutions. I imagine you still need an onboard sound solution that supports real-time DD encoding for this to work over HDMI, but if you have to resort to that, you'll certainly be much better off just sticking with the AZ HT HD which will output uncompressed LPCM.
The 4x0/5x0 series have their own onboard audio solutions that are recognized by Windows as their own device in the CP complete with their own drivers similar to any onboard mobo solution, so there's nothing passed over PCIe bus or cable external to the graphics card. I guess I should clarify/correct myself that the game engine does the sound mixing in software but still relies on your sound driver/device to handle the output, so in the case of Nvidia's solution it just outputs uncompressed 8ch LPCM over HDMI. If you needed to encode it to DD for output over SPDIF then you'd still need some kind of additional sound codec (X-Fi, Realtek, C-Media etc) to accomplish that.
Sounds like an issue with TMT. Have you checked over on their forums to see if anyone is able to get this working? If they can get it to work with normal side-by-side stereo rather than checkboard? If anyone else can get HD Audio streams working on a GTX 460/560 that actually supports HD bitstreaming? My guess is TMT is checking your GPUs HD audio capability only when set to 3D Vision (defers to the Nvidia driver maybe?) and when it does, it sees your 570 isn't capable of bitstreaming HD audio so the handshaking fails.
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
[quote]Video processor
Now, we are not going to explain PureVideo all over again but FERMI based graphics cards, thus GeForce series 400/500, have the latest model video processor embedded, which actually is similar to the one used in the GT220/240/ION2 regarding video capabilities. The VP4 engine now also supports MPEG-4 ASP (MPEG-4 Part 2) (Divx, Xvid) decoding in hardware as an improvement over the previous VP3 engine such as those used in ION based systems.
In short, NVIDIA can offload the decoding of pretty much any MPEG format, the only thing not supported is MPEG-1 which I doubt anyone still uses. What is also good to mention is that HDMI audio has finally been solved. [b]The stupid S/PDIF cable to connect a card to an audio codec, to retrieve sound over HDMI is gone. That also entails that NVIDIA is not bound to two channel LPCM or 5.1 channel DD/DTS for audio.[/b]
[b]Passing on audio over the PCIe bus[/b] brings along enhanced support for multiple formats. So VP4 can now support 8 channel LPCM, lossless format DD+ and 6 channel AAC. Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio bit streaming are not yet supported in software, yet in hardware they are (needs a driver update).[/quote]
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
[/quote]
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
[/quote]
While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
[/quote]
I'm curious, for the TWO DVI solution you mentioned. Do you use display clone or do you actually use extended desktop. If you use extended desktop, isn't it annoying to have things like your cursor getting lost in the other desktop connected to the Receiver?
Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
klau1,
Sorry for hijacking your thread somewhat, but this is all a very important issue and I thought it needed to be broadened some, because I've experienced some of the frustration that you are going through. Though you might like the unadulterated LPCM in games, I find it lacking somewhat in having a little more umph like what a hardware solution is capable of like the X-fi chip. Even stereo sounds better on the X-fi chip then it does on LPCM onboard solutions.
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
A note of correction: EAX is a lot of things, notably a proprietary sound solution, but hardly trash. If anything it's an analogue for what 3D Vision is in the visual world back in its own day of Windows 98/2000/XP. EAX received the axe not due to game developers getting crafty and offering up a better solution, but due to the inception of Microsoft's Windows Vista OS. Otherwise, you'd probably still be using it. EAX 3/4/5 stood on very high ground on Windows XP and for good reason. Hats off to someone like Creative who cared for their customers who still played pre-2007 games on Windows Vista and conceived of Alchemy which restored Directsound and EAX support to those games. Any other way on those games, and the sound is truly inept.
Yes, you are correct that EAX is no longer needed for modern games (provided you have the newer gpu), but there are still those of us that play old games and new games too. My Windows 7 comp can play both, and I have a comfort level knowing that fact. It's nice to play say Call of Duty 2 and have all the effects as they designed the game. Perhaps someone in the future will come up with a 3rd party EAX emulator (for old games) for folks that won't have the X-fi hardware when that design becomes extinct.
While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware.
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 10:40 AM' timestamp='1300977621' post='1212550']
I hope you get your hardware working right. I don't see why you couldn't run extended desktop with your second DVI running to your Asus-->Onkyo and then have your first DVI running straight to your TV. I built a comp for my nephew that has the same Sound card and GPU as yours and that is how I accomplished the task of achieving 3D and HD audio bitstreaming on his setup using TMT3. In fact between me, you, and chiz we have very similar and analogous setups in the sense that we have 3D vision, Nvidia GPU (though I'm running 200 series), and HT HD soundcards. You should be able to copy chiz and myself here.
-photios
I'm curious, for the TWO DVI solution you mentioned. Do you use display clone or do you actually use extended desktop. If you use extended desktop, isn't it annoying to have things like your cursor getting lost in the other desktop connected to the Receiver?
Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
Environment:
1. CPU : Intel i5 2500K
2. Graphics card driver version: Nvidia GTX570 280.26
3. Sound card and driver version : Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim 7.12.8.1792
4. Motherboard: Asus P8P67
5. Monitor model and name: Samsung 3D LED DLP HL67A750
6. Connector. (HDMI? VGA? DVI?): DVI>HDMI (see "Video Card CONNECTION" below for details)
7. Screen resolution and refresh rate : 1920X1080 60Hz
8. Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR876
9. TMT: 3.0.1.185
10: 3D mode: nVidia 3D Vision (generic dlp mode)
11. OS: Windows 7 x64
Video Card CONNECTION:
GPU DVI1 > TV HDMI 3
GPU DVI2 > Xonar HDMI Soundcard > AV Receiver > TV HDMI 2
Installed EDID Hack (for those that have a non 3d AV receiver) @ http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191096
Installed UltraMon (tested on 3.1) (this is to simulate Desktop Clone and keep mouse on one monitor)
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?[/quote]
Not totally. What I mean is that I play any game old or modern using EAX. If the game is native EAX, then the X-fi chip on the AZ handles that normally (e.g. Doom 3). If not an EAX game, thus a modern one or perhaps a very old game, the X-fi chip reencodes the signal with EAX effects. Giving the sound some qualities that it did not have in standard solutions. This is why I'm still a sucker for the hardware solution. If I know that something produces a tad better sound (or in some cases a lot better sound), I usually go and buy it. lol.
[quote]Before getting 3D Vision Kit, I also use the Dual DVI solution with Clone NOT extended desktop, but that was because the old drivers made overscan and color problems if connected to a receiver first.
But once I got the 3D Vision Kit, I noticed the 3D Vision was disabled with the Dual DVI solution. So I assume that 3D Vision doesn't work with Dual display setup unless you have SLI. (Is this true?)
So I chain connected the Video Card > Asus > Receiver > TV and updated drivers. I also did the EDID override to get 3D Vision to enable thru my Onkyo receiver. Then 3D worked!
But what you're telling me, it seems that it's possible to have 3D Vision + Dual DVI on single video card with ext desktop. (This is TRUE??) Is it possible with display clone, so you get only one desktop and STILL have 3D Vision working?
[/quote]
Yes you can do it without SLI. I was doing this before I had my 2nd GTX 295. You can do either Clone or Extended desktop though I noticed I had some issues in clone and so I like Extended desktop better. To keep your mouse in Desktop #1, use a program called Ultramon, you can setup pre-set hot-keys for keeping your mouse in Desktop 1, moving windows instantly to one desktop to another, etc. Very handy little program. Though Ultramon is more useful for a True Extended Desktop with Multiple Displays, it serves the need of our purposes.
BTW-I've done the chain method too. And I WOULD prefer that, except that my Receiver blocks certain resolutions. It will ONLY allow 480p, 1280p, 1080p to go through it on its way to the TV. As I described somewhere else above, if game only display at say 1280x1024 or 1024x768 or even 800x600, I get a black screen using the single line chain method. Hence, I'm stuck with Extended Desktop for a complete solution until A) I get a different receiver that can do true pass through and then do the EDID hack, or B) We see some hardware cleanup in the industry as chez and I have been discussing.
But I guess I'm content for the moment, what I have is functional.
Best,
photios
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
Not totally. What I mean is that I play any game old or modern using EAX. If the game is native EAX, then the X-fi chip on the AZ handles that normally (e.g. Doom 3). If not an EAX game, thus a modern one or perhaps a very old game, the X-fi chip reencodes the signal with EAX effects. Giving the sound some qualities that it did not have in standard solutions. This is why I'm still a sucker for the hardware solution. If I know that something produces a tad better sound (or in some cases a lot better sound), I usually go and buy it. lol.
Yes you can do it without SLI. I was doing this before I had my 2nd GTX 295. You can do either Clone or Extended desktop though I noticed I had some issues in clone and so I like Extended desktop better. To keep your mouse in Desktop #1, use a program called Ultramon, you can setup pre-set hot-keys for keeping your mouse in Desktop 1, moving windows instantly to one desktop to another, etc. Very handy little program. Though Ultramon is more useful for a True Extended Desktop with Multiple Displays, it serves the need of our purposes.
BTW-I've done the chain method too. And I WOULD prefer that, except that my Receiver blocks certain resolutions. It will ONLY allow 480p, 1280p, 1080p to go through it on its way to the TV. As I described somewhere else above, if game only display at say 1280x1024 or 1024x768 or even 800x600, I get a black screen using the single line chain method. Hence, I'm stuck with Extended Desktop for a complete solution until A) I get a different receiver that can do true pass through and then do the EDID hack, or B) We see some hardware cleanup in the industry as chez and I have been discussing.
But I guess I'm content for the moment, what I have is functional.
Best,
photios
interesting hypothesis. Did they include bitstream in the GT240? thats the only card with HDMI I have on hand for test.
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
[/quote]
Unfortunately not, I believe the GT240 supports the same formats as your GF110-based 570 and only 8ch LPCM for HD audio. If you had an older card like a GTX 200 series or prior then you could also test going the other way and see if TMT further deprecates audio capability by removing 8ch LPCM support on cards that do not support it. Also, you are not bound to cards with HDMI outputs, any of the cards that support audio output (even the GTX 200 series that use spdif passthrough) have DVI outputs that are pin compatible with HDMI and capable of passing audio through a DVI to HDMI adapter.
interesting hypothesis. Did they include bitstream in the GT240? thats the only card with HDMI I have on hand for test.
Meanwhile, I hope ManuelG will have some answers.
Unfortunately not, I believe the GT240 supports the same formats as your GF110-based 570 and only 8ch LPCM for HD audio. If you had an older card like a GTX 200 series or prior then you could also test going the other way and see if TMT further deprecates audio capability by removing 8ch LPCM support on cards that do not support it. Also, you are not bound to cards with HDMI outputs, any of the cards that support audio output (even the GTX 200 series that use spdif passthrough) have DVI outputs that are pin compatible with HDMI and capable of passing audio through a DVI to HDMI adapter.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
[/quote]
Ah yeah, I'd certainly still go for the HT HD with a 200 series card, sorry didn't realize you were using 295s.
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s? I've generally found scaling to be excellent in just 2-way SLI with or without 3D Vision, but once you start looking at a 3rd GPU or more, things start falling apart greatly whether its due to CPU or driver limitations. I guess I could see the need for more than 2x high-end GPUs with 3D Vision Surround set-ups, but for most recent games at 1080p in S3D I've had few games that required more than 2x480s.
I remember there were some inefficiencies in how GPUs render in SLI and 3D Vision which became even more problematic once you got to higher resolutions with 3D Vision surround. Basically each GPU was rendering both L and R eye images sequentially instead of handing them off to each successive GPU. I'd imagine that's why Quad-SLI performance was so bad back then, as there may have been no benefit for those 3rd and 4th GPUs to render 2x sequential images over just having the 1st and 2nd GPUs render them. In any case, hopefully they've worked out Quad-SLI 3D Vision performance, sadly most reviews do not bother to test 3D Vision performance for obvious reasons. That'll certainly be a killer set-up though so hope it works out for you.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1300979153' post='1212561']
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
[/quote]
Ah yes, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the audio signal was passed from one audio codec/device to another over the PCIe bus instead of an spdif cable. But ya audio data is passed over PCIe from the CPU/memory to the GPU's onboard sound similar to any audio data passing over the PCIe bus to a discrete sound card or onboard MB sound solution.
Hi chiz,
I tried it out, no go. Looks like the AZ HT HD has a justification all it's own with a 200 series card (minus the GT versions) if you want the complete solution. And as of now, if you don't have a GTX 560/460 you still need something like the AZ HT HD if you still want the full deal.
I may be opting for the GTX 590: probably hammer Nvidia before I buy to ensure that they have QUAD-SLI and 3D Vision working, as you know there are issues with DX9 and 3D Vision with GTX 295 QUAD SLI. GTX 590 gives me the GF110 which can't bitstream DTS Master and DOlb True HD, but oh well, I have the AZ so I'm covered, and I still think re-encoding with EAX and DDL at the hardware level sounds a little bit crisper and better than LPCM.
Ah yeah, I'd certainly still go for the HT HD with a 200 series card, sorry didn't realize you were using 295s.
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s? I've generally found scaling to be excellent in just 2-way SLI with or without 3D Vision, but once you start looking at a 3rd GPU or more, things start falling apart greatly whether its due to CPU or driver limitations. I guess I could see the need for more than 2x high-end GPUs with 3D Vision Surround set-ups, but for most recent games at 1080p in S3D I've had few games that required more than 2x480s.
I remember there were some inefficiencies in how GPUs render in SLI and 3D Vision which became even more problematic once you got to higher resolutions with 3D Vision surround. Basically each GPU was rendering both L and R eye images sequentially instead of handing them off to each successive GPU. I'd imagine that's why Quad-SLI performance was so bad back then, as there may have been no benefit for those 3rd and 4th GPUs to render 2x sequential images over just having the 1st and 2nd GPUs render them. In any case, hopefully they've worked out Quad-SLI 3D Vision performance, sadly most reviews do not bother to test 3D Vision performance for obvious reasons. That'll certainly be a killer set-up though so hope it works out for you.
[quote name='photios' date='24 March 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1300979153' post='1212561']
I found this to be an interesting little tidbit when I was reading the GTX 590 review today over at guru3d.com :
Emphasis mine. So they ARE passing Audio over the PCIe bus as I understood, and the 400/500 series DOES have advantage over 200 series in and of itself that goes beyond just passing audio over the PCIe bus. It totally gets around the the two channel LPCM problem. No wonder I was so frustrated.
Ah yes, sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the audio signal was passed from one audio codec/device to another over the PCIe bus instead of an spdif cable. But ya audio data is passed over PCIe from the CPU/memory to the GPU's onboard sound similar to any audio data passing over the PCIe bus to a discrete sound card or onboard MB sound solution.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off. [/quote]
You can do either encode to DTS/DD or straight out with EAX effects over HDMI with LPCM. Personally I prefer straight out over LPCM because DD and DTS encodes are compressed to DD/DTS wrappers which are much lower bitrates than uncompressed LPCM. Again, questionable benefit with 16/48 and 16/44.1 source material but I can notice the difference even on my modest set-up. But ya that's the main benefit of the HT HD currently even with 8ch LPCM, you still get EAX and EQ sound field treatments processed by the X-Fi before any compression and can also output without any compression over HDMI.
That's the main gripe I have with the current onboard solutions though, the lack of EQ control and additional EAX effects. You can certainly compensate for the DTS' deeper bass by just adjusting the EQ settings in the X-Fi control panel, but you can't do that when going straight from a game's software mixer to the GPU because Nvidia's onboard doesn't have any settings I can see. Maybe the Realtek solutions offer some EQ settings for their solutions?
[quote]While EAX did give better sound immersion, it wasn't an open solution. [b]It was proprietary, which is why we'll never see a legal EAX emulator that works on non Creative hardware. [/b]
Honestly, I'm not a fan of Creative. Their company hasn't treated their customers well as you may have read in many forums.
Their proprietary EAX API created a cash cow for their over price HW. The software driver solutions were convoluted as hell (read: BLOAT).
Auzentech was the only one that built a sound card from their chip, selling at a gouging price. And because of this, there was limited choice of HW too. ieL There was no Auzentech HT Slim (unlike Asus HDAV 1.3 Slim) for those that don't use analog.
So personally, EAX is good riddance to me. LPCM sounds very immersive, certainly good enough to me.[/quote]
Bold portion isn't entirely true, Creative licensed EAX to numerous OEM MB and laptop manufacturers that were supported on non-Creative chipsets, Sigmatel, ADI, even Realtek chipsets. Some even turned them into daughter/riser cards like Asus' SupremeFX X-Fi card. If you dig around, you can even find people getting X-Fi software to work on Realtek chipsets and boards that haven't licensed EAX.
As for the rest of the anti-Creative sentiment, like photios I'm also greatly appreciative of what Creative and SoundBlaster has done for PC gaming audio over the years. I can remember what my PC sounded like before my first SoundBlaster (beeps and buzzes, no voices supported) and I can also remember how miserable onboard analog sound was (and still is). Only recently with the advent of uncompressed digital output over HDMI along with multi-channel surround mixed in software has onboard sound become a viable solution over a discrete sound card. The software bloat was largely unnecessary btw, but just going to a custom install and only installing the EAX Control Panel, Driver and Sound Volume Tray (optional also) gave you everything you needed for full functionality.
Not going to spend much time on the open vs. proprietary argument, but I would generally lean toward the supported/proprietary solutions over the unsupported/open solutions as you generally get a better product and end-user experience. Here's just a short list, please tell me honestly which you prefer for gaming as an end-user/consumer:
Windows vs. Linux
DirectX vs. OpenGL
3D Vision vs. Open3D
EAX vs. ??????
I can already tell you the benefits of EAX created a lasting legacy of superior sound quality in the overwhelming majority of games prior to DX10 that lasted well over a decade. I can honestly say any game I owned that supported EAX was greatly enhanced by a Creative SoundBlaster card, so to me Creative is always going to be held in high esteem even if they've had some missteps along the way.
Yes, if I understand correctly, you play EAX games your X-Fi Chip and get it to encode to DTS Connect or DD Live to your Receiver. Or do you mean EAX > HDMI LPCM?
IIRC, I too experienced, the "more umph" like you describe when using DTS Connect with my Auzentech X-Merdian with GX mode (some sort of EAX translator/emulator) to DTS Connect. But reportedly, the reason is that DTS naturally applies more Bass on top of the original intended sound. I wonder if that's what's creating the "umph" you've mentioned. You might be able to test this theory by using DTS Connect with EAX off.
You can do either encode to DTS/DD or straight out with EAX effects over HDMI with LPCM. Personally I prefer straight out over LPCM because DD and DTS encodes are compressed to DD/DTS wrappers which are much lower bitrates than uncompressed LPCM. Again, questionable benefit with 16/48 and 16/44.1 source material but I can notice the difference even on my modest set-up. But ya that's the main benefit of the HT HD currently even with 8ch LPCM, you still get EAX and EQ sound field treatments processed by the X-Fi before any compression and can also output without any compression over HDMI.
That's the main gripe I have with the current onboard solutions though, the lack of EQ control and additional EAX effects. You can certainly compensate for the DTS' deeper bass by just adjusting the EQ settings in the X-Fi control panel, but you can't do that when going straight from a game's software mixer to the GPU because Nvidia's onboard doesn't have any settings I can see. Maybe the Realtek solutions offer some EQ settings for their solutions?
Bold portion isn't entirely true, Creative licensed EAX to numerous OEM MB and laptop manufacturers that were supported on non-Creative chipsets, Sigmatel, ADI, even Realtek chipsets. Some even turned them into daughter/riser cards like Asus' SupremeFX X-Fi card. If you dig around, you can even find people getting X-Fi software to work on Realtek chipsets and boards that haven't licensed EAX.
As for the rest of the anti-Creative sentiment, like photios I'm also greatly appreciative of what Creative and SoundBlaster has done for PC gaming audio over the years. I can remember what my PC sounded like before my first SoundBlaster (beeps and buzzes, no voices supported) and I can also remember how miserable onboard analog sound was (and still is). Only recently with the advent of uncompressed digital output over HDMI along with multi-channel surround mixed in software has onboard sound become a viable solution over a discrete sound card. The software bloat was largely unnecessary btw, but just going to a custom install and only installing the EAX Control Panel, Driver and Sound Volume Tray (optional also) gave you everything you needed for full functionality.
Not going to spend much time on the open vs. proprietary argument, but I would generally lean toward the supported/proprietary solutions over the unsupported/open solutions as you generally get a better product and end-user experience. Here's just a short list, please tell me honestly which you prefer for gaming as an end-user/consumer:
Windows vs. Linux
DirectX vs. OpenGL
3D Vision vs. Open3D
EAX vs. ??????
I can already tell you the benefits of EAX created a lasting legacy of superior sound quality in the overwhelming majority of games prior to DX10 that lasted well over a decade. I can honestly say any game I owned that supported EAX was greatly enhanced by a Creative SoundBlaster card, so to me Creative is always going to be held in high esteem even if they've had some missteps along the way.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s?[/quote]
chiz,
Just to go way off topic here (lol)...here's the reasoning:
1) I bought my GTX 295 co-op's a good 1 year and 2 mos before the inception of GTX 480. I was using QUAD-SLI in 2D before I ever got into 3D Vision. I wanted the best card I could get and at that time 3D vision was pretty much limited to using a single card anyways. They started adding 3-way SLI and QUAD SLI later.
2) As of right now, GTX 295 QUAD SLI shows some huge muscle in DX10 with 3D Vision. I can max out Metro 2033 with DX10 and have great scaling 85% and above. I'm running 45 frames or higher in 3D Vision @ 1080p checkerboard. That's not DX11...but that is something.
3) When GTX 480 came out, it offered me little performance over what I have and sometimes none at all. Even GTX 580 isn't ENOUGH of a performance gap for me to justify the cost of upgrading.
4) The fact that QUAD SLI works right on DX10 is evidence enough to me that Nvidia has a driver bug problem with DX9 and instead of me just caving in and opting for a single gpu SLI solution, I'd rather beat my chest and have the fix, which is what I've been doing and finally I think I've made some progress.
5) GTX 590 stands in a unique light over GTX 295. GTX 295 was two GTX 275 GPU's clocked at GTX 260 speeds, but it wasn't using the GTX 285 GPU as a point of departure. GTX 590 on the other hand, uses two GTX 580 GPUs albeit clocked lower. As a cost upgrade solution, it'll be cheaper to just buy One single GTX 590 rather than opt to buy two GTX 580's.
6) Now that Nvidia GTX 590 is on the table, it offers me another reason to complain about QUAD SLI, since it suffers from all the DX9 problems that the GTX 295 QUAD SLI setup has. They were able to brush aside the 295 when the DX11 cards came out, but they can't now, not with their best card out. They MUST address the issue and fix it head on, and finally put the problem to rest.
7) Well I'm just a sucker for that dual gpu card. I think they are really cool. 3-way SLI is cool too, but you are talking about more power consumption, overall less performance (in theory), and more cost to buy 3 cards over two cards. As far as I see it, just fix the dang drivers as they are fixed on DX10/295/QuadSLI.
8) In hindsight, I might have done this all different. But now with GTX 590 out, getting GTX 580 SLI would make no sense. Of course, one could make the argument that QUAD SLI doesn't justify the cost either. I think PC gaming can take advantage of it (Metro 2033, maxed out DX11 certainly would) if they would just get their drivers right with it from the start.
photios
I do remember you and a few others had issues with Quad-SLI performance when I got 3D Vision about a year ago, and forgive me as I think I asked then as well, but why bother with Quad-SLI over just 2x SLI with a pair of 480/570/580s?
chiz,
Just to go way off topic here (lol)...here's the reasoning:
1) I bought my GTX 295 co-op's a good 1 year and 2 mos before the inception of GTX 480. I was using QUAD-SLI in 2D before I ever got into 3D Vision. I wanted the best card I could get and at that time 3D vision was pretty much limited to using a single card anyways. They started adding 3-way SLI and QUAD SLI later.
2) As of right now, GTX 295 QUAD SLI shows some huge muscle in DX10 with 3D Vision. I can max out Metro 2033 with DX10 and have great scaling 85% and above. I'm running 45 frames or higher in 3D Vision @ 1080p checkerboard. That's not DX11...but that is something.
3) When GTX 480 came out, it offered me little performance over what I have and sometimes none at all. Even GTX 580 isn't ENOUGH of a performance gap for me to justify the cost of upgrading.
4) The fact that QUAD SLI works right on DX10 is evidence enough to me that Nvidia has a driver bug problem with DX9 and instead of me just caving in and opting for a single gpu SLI solution, I'd rather beat my chest and have the fix, which is what I've been doing and finally I think I've made some progress.
5) GTX 590 stands in a unique light over GTX 295. GTX 295 was two GTX 275 GPU's clocked at GTX 260 speeds, but it wasn't using the GTX 285 GPU as a point of departure. GTX 590 on the other hand, uses two GTX 580 GPUs albeit clocked lower. As a cost upgrade solution, it'll be cheaper to just buy One single GTX 590 rather than opt to buy two GTX 580's.
6) Now that Nvidia GTX 590 is on the table, it offers me another reason to complain about QUAD SLI, since it suffers from all the DX9 problems that the GTX 295 QUAD SLI setup has. They were able to brush aside the 295 when the DX11 cards came out, but they can't now, not with their best card out. They MUST address the issue and fix it head on, and finally put the problem to rest.
7) Well I'm just a sucker for that dual gpu card. I think they are really cool. 3-way SLI is cool too, but you are talking about more power consumption, overall less performance (in theory), and more cost to buy 3 cards over two cards. As far as I see it, just fix the dang drivers as they are fixed on DX10/295/QuadSLI.
8) In hindsight, I might have done this all different. But now with GTX 590 out, getting GTX 580 SLI would make no sense. Of course, one could make the argument that QUAD SLI doesn't justify the cost either. I think PC gaming can take advantage of it (Metro 2033, maxed out DX11 certainly would) if they would just get their drivers right with it from the start.
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