@SteveK: some pointers for future drivers/profiles features
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Hi SteveK
The amount of effort you guys must have put into making this new 3D tech, along with this statement of yours,
[quote="SteveK@NVIDIA"]We all know and love TR - and I understand completely where you are coming from. Let me be clear that working with developers to provide the absolute best 3D Vision Ready experience we can is always our preferred solution. And we are in no way saying we won't continue to strive for this with this release. Hopefully we'll be able to refine this new technology to make the 3D experience more palatable, and enjoyable, to our more discerning users for popular games that would otherwise not be playable with 3DV. (User mods notwithstanding, of course.)[/quote]
... makes it sounds like you guys are currently on board with 3D!
Striking whilst the iron's hot! The following are little things, I know, but they do my head in.
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
Take convergence settings out of 'Advanced'.
Convergence isn't advanced; it is [u][b]necessary[/b][/u]! 3D quality DEPENDS on convergence.
I understand newbies might break 3D by applying too much, but it is fixable, 100% of the time, by holding Ctrl + F5.
Why don't you add one slide to the set up wizard explaining convergence e.g.
[b][i]Use the convergence keys to tweak popout.
WARNING: Too much convergence can break the image. Should this happen, simply hold the lower convergence keys until the screen appears normal again.[/i][/b]
Also suggest new users experiment with convergence using the spinning nVidia logo in the built in demo.
I understand too much convergence breaks the new 3D tech. If this is a concern you could just mention this issue in the game's OSD. "Too much convergence can cause anomolies."
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
With regard to the new 3D tech, don't hold back on depth.
Shogun 2's fix looked great. The only seriuous issue I had with it was, for me, the max depth was way too low. On your official thread for the driver, I posted a link to a file containing comparisons between nvidia's new tech and a community fix. The community fix was the better fix because it allowed max depth! nVidia's Shogun 2 profile's max depth was too low and the 3D effect was frankly boring.
If depth should cause anomolies update the OSD to reflect this.
[edit]
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
[quote="mike_ar69"]don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".[/quote]There is simply no reason for the default to be be set this low. By all means warn people to not look at the screen whilst changing depth, because that can be jarring, but please mention the fact that many 3D gamers enjoy 100% depth. I honestly thought playing at 100% depth was risky when I first got the kit and was scared to increase depth! I still remember when I did take the plunge and [i]experimented[/i] with 100% depth; I was frankly blown away and have never been satisfied with less since.
@SkeveK
I do appreciate the concerns the good folk have on these board, but to say the nVidia's recent activity isn't a HUGE leap in the right direction would be churlish beyond belief. So thanks!
The amount of effort you guys must have put into making this new 3D tech, along with this statement of yours,
SteveK@NVIDIA said:We all know and love TR - and I understand completely where you are coming from. Let me be clear that working with developers to provide the absolute best 3D Vision Ready experience we can is always our preferred solution. And we are in no way saying we won't continue to strive for this with this release. Hopefully we'll be able to refine this new technology to make the 3D experience more palatable, and enjoyable, to our more discerning users for popular games that would otherwise not be playable with 3DV. (User mods notwithstanding, of course.)
... makes it sounds like you guys are currently on board with 3D!
Striking whilst the iron's hot! The following are little things, I know, but they do my head in.
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
Take convergence settings out of 'Advanced'.
Convergence isn't advanced; it is necessary! 3D quality DEPENDS on convergence.
I understand newbies might break 3D by applying too much, but it is fixable, 100% of the time, by holding Ctrl + F5.
Why don't you add one slide to the set up wizard explaining convergence e.g. Use the convergence keys to tweak popout.
WARNING: Too much convergence can break the image. Should this happen, simply hold the lower convergence keys until the screen appears normal again.
Also suggest new users experiment with convergence using the spinning nVidia logo in the built in demo.
I understand too much convergence breaks the new 3D tech. If this is a concern you could just mention this issue in the game's OSD. "Too much convergence can cause anomolies."
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
With regard to the new 3D tech, don't hold back on depth.
Shogun 2's fix looked great. The only seriuous issue I had with it was, for me, the max depth was way too low. On your official thread for the driver, I posted a link to a file containing comparisons between nvidia's new tech and a community fix. The community fix was the better fix because it allowed max depth! nVidia's Shogun 2 profile's max depth was too low and the 3D effect was frankly boring.
If depth should cause anomolies update the OSD to reflect this.
[edit]
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
mike_ar69 said:don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".
There is simply no reason for the default to be be set this low. By all means warn people to not look at the screen whilst changing depth, because that can be jarring, but please mention the fact that many 3D gamers enjoy 100% depth. I honestly thought playing at 100% depth was risky when I first got the kit and was scared to increase depth! I still remember when I did take the plunge and experimented with 100% depth; I was frankly blown away and have never been satisfied with less since.
@SkeveK
I do appreciate the concerns the good folk have on these board, but to say the nVidia's recent activity isn't a HUGE leap in the right direction would be churlish beyond belief. So thanks!
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
I strongly agree with taking convergence out of "advanced". Properly adjusted convergence makes a huge difference in 3d, and people need to learn how to use it to get an enjoyable experience.
I strongly agree with taking convergence out of "advanced". Properly adjusted convergence makes a huge difference in 3d, and people need to learn how to use it to get an enjoyable experience.
Indeed, totally agree with Andy. People on this forum have been saying this for ages.
Tweeking convergence to personal taste is what unlocks the true visual power of 3D Vision, and is anything but "advanced", it's fundamental and essential to visual impact.
If I had to bet I would say that the reasons it's hidden under "advanced options" are:
1. Serious eye discomfort and probably medical risks for children when set to high levels.
2. Lack of development time/funds to integrate it properly to the user's experience, with a clear HUD and progress bar to track settings level (like Depth)
3. Lack of standardized 3D support in games, making it difficult for Nvidia to track and document Convergence availability on a game-by-game basis. (manu games totally block it, for example)
But, like Andy was saying, come on already! :-)
- Short tutorial during 3D Vision calibration/setup
- Convergence level progress bar, like Depth, maybe making it become red when convergence is considered too high for standard confort levels (+ an easy shortcut to set it to default/low)
Should not be too difficult
Indeed, totally agree with Andy. People on this forum have been saying this for ages.
Tweeking convergence to personal taste is what unlocks the true visual power of 3D Vision, and is anything but "advanced", it's fundamental and essential to visual impact.
If I had to bet I would say that the reasons it's hidden under "advanced options" are:
1. Serious eye discomfort and probably medical risks for children when set to high levels.
2. Lack of development time/funds to integrate it properly to the user's experience, with a clear HUD and progress bar to track settings level (like Depth)
3. Lack of standardized 3D support in games, making it difficult for Nvidia to track and document Convergence availability on a game-by-game basis. (manu games totally block it, for example)
But, like Andy was saying, come on already! :-)
- Short tutorial during 3D Vision calibration/setup
- Convergence level progress bar, like Depth, maybe making it become red when convergence is considered too high for standard confort levels (+ an easy shortcut to set it to default/low)
I also agree about making the Convergence Settings more obvious, as andysonofbob explained.
Also don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".
I think I can see why there is no OSD for convergence - it is not bounded between 0 and 100 like depth is (it's effectively +/- infinity), and the 'center point' at which the game looks good can vary widely between games. As an example, Splinter Cell Blacklist has a convergence of about 60 that just about puts the character at screen depth - a value of 500 puts the character out of the screen but the game is still (just) playable. Might and Magic X Legacy needs a Convergence of about 1.8 - even the Nvidia default of 4 is a fair bit of pop-out that is too high for me. The point here is that there is no common scale across games. If Nvidia could find a way to 'normalize' it, and my suggestion would be to divide it by the near plane distance or something, so the center point was always "1", then the max/bounds could perhaps be set as some function of far plane distance. This would still suffer from scenes having different near plane distances, but that's no different to changing convergences right now, and you could at least have an OSD.
I also agree about making the Convergence Settings more obvious, as andysonofbob explained.
Also don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".
I think I can see why there is no OSD for convergence - it is not bounded between 0 and 100 like depth is (it's effectively +/- infinity), and the 'center point' at which the game looks good can vary widely between games. As an example, Splinter Cell Blacklist has a convergence of about 60 that just about puts the character at screen depth - a value of 500 puts the character out of the screen but the game is still (just) playable. Might and Magic X Legacy needs a Convergence of about 1.8 - even the Nvidia default of 4 is a fair bit of pop-out that is too high for me. The point here is that there is no common scale across games. If Nvidia could find a way to 'normalize' it, and my suggestion would be to divide it by the near plane distance or something, so the center point was always "1", then the max/bounds could perhaps be set as some function of far plane distance. This would still suffer from scenes having different near plane distances, but that's no different to changing convergences right now, and you could at least have an OSD.
I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this then!
[quote="mike_ar69"] Also don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".[/quote]
I cannot believe I didn't think of that one! That's a bonkers default. I always introduce people to 3D, with 3D set to the way I like it ~ 100% depth. No-ones had an issue with that and two people now have ushered the phrase, 'This 3D isn't a gimmick.'
I'm obviously not the only one who thinks this then!
mike_ar69 said: Also don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".
I cannot believe I didn't think of that one! That's a bonkers default. I always introduce people to 3D, with 3D set to the way I like it ~ 100% depth. No-ones had an issue with that and two people now have ushered the phrase, 'This 3D isn't a gimmick.'
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
after a days i have try some games with the new profile, specially shogun2 :), i like a lot the nvidia fix about the effects compass, lights,.. i have been so time trying it that i remember until the crc of the shaders. but not for the smoke for example, i see it plain over the terrain, not in real 3d. i read that the 3d image are not only 2 images, at diferent shift if not that them too depend on about the angle of the eye cam. i dont know if the new method of nvidia can do it without to alter the original code of the developers only with the driver. and i that it its the reason for that we call them 2.5D.
i am agree if it is posible with the advance convergence setting, perhaps not for default but yes for experienced users as a option. i like 3dvision when i see, but i didnt love it until i see that i can change the convergence. i dont know if nvidia can fix it with diferent news options in the profiles, but and now that i see mike here too, i am sure that it is posible. if not only a minimum sdk, doc, debug or..
after a days i have try some games with the new profile, specially shogun2 :), i like a lot the nvidia fix about the effects compass, lights,.. i have been so time trying it that i remember until the crc of the shaders. but not for the smoke for example, i see it plain over the terrain, not in real 3d. i read that the 3d image are not only 2 images, at diferent shift if not that them too depend on about the angle of the eye cam. i dont know if the new method of nvidia can do it without to alter the original code of the developers only with the driver. and i that it its the reason for that we call them 2.5D.
i am agree if it is posible with the advance convergence setting, perhaps not for default but yes for experienced users as a option. i like 3dvision when i see, but i didnt love it until i see that i can change the convergence. i dont know if nvidia can fix it with diferent news options in the profiles, but and now that i see mike here too, i am sure that it is posible. if not only a minimum sdk, doc, debug or..
[quote="xfiniti64"]OH ME GOD ! I did not know about convergence settings !!!!!! It do magic on that new profiles ! OH ME ! Why it was hidden ?[/quote]
Apparently its advanced!
[quote="xfiniti64"]OH ME GOD ! I did not know about convergence settings !!!!!! It do magic on that new profiles ! OH ME ! Why it was hidden ?[/quote]
I believe we've proven our point :)
@SteveK - Please take note of the above comment from xfiniti64. It absolutely encapsulates the problem in three short sentences, 10 exclamations marks and one questions mark.
@SteveK - Please take note of the above comment from xfiniti64. It absolutely encapsulates the problem in three short sentences, 10 exclamations marks and one questions mark.
Yeah, default should be Numpad + and - (Exitara's preference which I've been using for more than one year without conflict in games). If they are afraid it would be prone to accidental depressing of the keys, they can make it Ctrl plus + / -.
And the taking of 3D screenshots should also be mappable, cause it's a real hassle to use the registry and hex values, for crying out loud. And I'm taking screenshots frequently, so it's not an obscure function.
Yeah, default should be Numpad + and - (Exitara's preference which I've been using for more than one year without conflict in games). If they are afraid it would be prone to accidental depressing of the keys, they can make it Ctrl plus + / -.
And the taking of 3D screenshots should also be mappable, cause it's a real hassle to use the registry and hex values, for crying out loud. And I'm taking screenshots frequently, so it's not an obscure function.
The amount of effort you guys must have put into making this new 3D tech, along with this statement of yours,
... makes it sounds like you guys are currently on board with 3D!
Striking whilst the iron's hot! The following are little things, I know, but they do my head in.
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
Take convergence settings out of 'Advanced'.
Convergence isn't advanced; it is necessary! 3D quality DEPENDS on convergence.
I understand newbies might break 3D by applying too much, but it is fixable, 100% of the time, by holding Ctrl + F5.
Why don't you add one slide to the set up wizard explaining convergence e.g.
Use the convergence keys to tweak popout.
WARNING: Too much convergence can break the image. Should this happen, simply hold the lower convergence keys until the screen appears normal again.
Also suggest new users experiment with convergence using the spinning nVidia logo in the built in demo.
I understand too much convergence breaks the new 3D tech. If this is a concern you could just mention this issue in the game's OSD. "Too much convergence can cause anomolies."
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
With regard to the new 3D tech, don't hold back on depth.
Shogun 2's fix looked great. The only seriuous issue I had with it was, for me, the max depth was way too low. On your official thread for the driver, I posted a link to a file containing comparisons between nvidia's new tech and a community fix. The community fix was the better fix because it allowed max depth! nVidia's Shogun 2 profile's max depth was too low and the 3D effect was frankly boring.
If depth should cause anomolies update the OSD to reflect this.
[edit]
FOR CRYING OUT QUIETLY, STEVEK
PLEASE
There is simply no reason for the default to be be set this low. By all means warn people to not look at the screen whilst changing depth, because that can be jarring, but please mention the fact that many 3D gamers enjoy 100% depth. I honestly thought playing at 100% depth was risky when I first got the kit and was scared to increase depth! I still remember when I did take the plunge and experimented with 100% depth; I was frankly blown away and have never been satisfied with less since.
@SkeveK
I do appreciate the concerns the good folk have on these board, but to say the nVidia's recent activity isn't a HUGE leap in the right direction would be churlish beyond belief. So thanks!
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
God bless you!
GTX 980 Ti, Intel core i7-7700K GPU 4.6 GHz, HMZ T-3 HTC VIVE
Tweeking convergence to personal taste is what unlocks the true visual power of 3D Vision, and is anything but "advanced", it's fundamental and essential to visual impact.
If I had to bet I would say that the reasons it's hidden under "advanced options" are:
1. Serious eye discomfort and probably medical risks for children when set to high levels.
2. Lack of development time/funds to integrate it properly to the user's experience, with a clear HUD and progress bar to track settings level (like Depth)
3. Lack of standardized 3D support in games, making it difficult for Nvidia to track and document Convergence availability on a game-by-game basis. (manu games totally block it, for example)
But, like Andy was saying, come on already! :-)
- Short tutorial during 3D Vision calibration/setup
- Convergence level progress bar, like Depth, maybe making it become red when convergence is considered too high for standard confort levels (+ an easy shortcut to set it to default/low)
Should not be too difficult
Also don't set depth to 15% by default, that's just feeding the people who call 3D a "gimmick".
I think I can see why there is no OSD for convergence - it is not bounded between 0 and 100 like depth is (it's effectively +/- infinity), and the 'center point' at which the game looks good can vary widely between games. As an example, Splinter Cell Blacklist has a convergence of about 60 that just about puts the character at screen depth - a value of 500 puts the character out of the screen but the game is still (just) playable. Might and Magic X Legacy needs a Convergence of about 1.8 - even the Nvidia default of 4 is a fair bit of pop-out that is too high for me. The point here is that there is no common scale across games. If Nvidia could find a way to 'normalize' it, and my suggestion would be to divide it by the near plane distance or something, so the center point was always "1", then the max/bounds could perhaps be set as some function of far plane distance. This would still suffer from scenes having different near plane distances, but that's no different to changing convergences right now, and you could at least have an OSD.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
I cannot believe I didn't think of that one! That's a bonkers default. I always introduce people to 3D, with 3D set to the way I like it ~ 100% depth. No-ones had an issue with that and two people now have ushered the phrase, 'This 3D isn't a gimmick.'
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
i am agree if it is posible with the advance convergence setting, perhaps not for default but yes for experienced users as a option. i like 3dvision when i see, but i didnt love it until i see that i can change the convergence. i dont know if nvidia can fix it with diferent news options in the profiles, but and now that i see mike here too, i am sure that it is posible. if not only a minimum sdk, doc, debug or..
Windows 7 64bit, i7, GTX680, 16GB, Benq 120hz
VG278HR + GTX 780 TI x2 SLI OC. i7 4770k @4.8 ghz
Apparently its advanced!
My 3D Vision Gallery
Helix 3D Fixes
Win 7 x64
i7 4960X Extreme Edition
MSI Big Bang XPower II
2x EVGA Titan Z
Silverstone Evo 1200w
I believe we've proven our point :)
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
And the taking of 3D screenshots should also be mappable, cause it's a real hassle to use the registry and hex values, for crying out loud. And I'm taking screenshots frequently, so it's not an obscure function.