3D Vision CPU Bottelneck: Gathering Information thread.
2 / 22
Thanks helifax.
Would you kindly kindly provide exact figures?
Forget the physical and virtual cores for the time being - the OS doesn't differentiate between them. Please just state the average CPU usage in each scenario with both 3D Vision on and off? Or just give me a screen capture of all 8 cores and I'll do the calculations for you :)
[i]Witcher 3 -> 3D Vision Enabled but not activated - I get around 80-83 FPS
Witcher 3 -> 3D Enabled and Activated - I get around 45 FPS.[/i]
This shows that you do have the problem. Your 3D FPS should be 80, not 45. You say yourself that your GPU was never over 70%. If 3D Vision has next to no CPU overhead, why are your FPS chopped in half?
To prove that it is a CPU issue, put your CPU clock from 2GHz to 3GHz. You will notice that your 3D FPS will be higher! (Also, your GPU will be higher usage as a result of course!)
Please feel free to enable the other 980Ti for SLi. What we are trying to do is to ensure the GPUs aren't saturated in 3D or in 2D, so the more GPUs the merrier! I see yours were at 70% with SLi disabled, that's fine too :)
All we are trying to research here is what the CPU usage and FPS are like when the GPU is not being saturated, so an easy list like:
3D Vision OFF
Aver CPU usage = x
Average GPU = x
FPS = x
3D Vision ON
Aver CPU usage = y
Average GPU = y
FPS = y
Once this is obtained, you will notice that in most if not all of those games, enabling 3D Vision will REDUCE the average CPU usage by a significant margin, and the 3D FPS will decrease as a result.
Forget the physical and virtual cores for the time being - the OS doesn't differentiate between them. Please just state the average CPU usage in each scenario with both 3D Vision on and off? Or just give me a screen capture of all 8 cores and I'll do the calculations for you :)
Witcher 3 -> 3D Vision Enabled but not activated - I get around 80-83 FPS
Witcher 3 -> 3D Enabled and Activated - I get around 45 FPS.
This shows that you do have the problem. Your 3D FPS should be 80, not 45. You say yourself that your GPU was never over 70%. If 3D Vision has next to no CPU overhead, why are your FPS chopped in half?
To prove that it is a CPU issue, put your CPU clock from 2GHz to 3GHz. You will notice that your 3D FPS will be higher! (Also, your GPU will be higher usage as a result of course!)
Please feel free to enable the other 980Ti for SLi. What we are trying to do is to ensure the GPUs aren't saturated in 3D or in 2D, so the more GPUs the merrier! I see yours were at 70% with SLi disabled, that's fine too :)
All we are trying to research here is what the CPU usage and FPS are like when the GPU is not being saturated, so an easy list like:
3D Vision OFF
Aver CPU usage = x
Average GPU = x
FPS = x
3D Vision ON
Aver CPU usage = y
Average GPU = y
FPS = y
Once this is obtained, you will notice that in most if not all of those games, enabling 3D Vision will REDUCE the average CPU usage by a significant margin, and the 3D FPS will decrease as a result.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote]
[i]Witcher 3 -> [color="green"]3D Vision Enabled[/color] [color="orange"]but not Activated[/color] - I get around 80-83 FPS
Witcher 3 -> [color="green"]3D Vision Enabled[/color] [color="orange"]and Activated[/color] - I get around 45 FPS.[/i]
[/quote]
And what is the problem there? Running things in 3D is always 2D FPS/2 (because we render twice)... How am I supposed to get 80 FPS in 3D? That would require 160 in 2D...
(I see there is a big confusion around for some reason and people still don't understand after 6 years how Stereo works...)
---
IMO, is not worth it.. you see a problem where none exits... but whatever... I'll leave this thread and rather focus on constructive things rather than "conspiracy theories"... Better yet, maybe is time to leave this forum (3D Vision) for good and move to other things... as I see a lot of people did lately...
---
Back to topic:
What I see 5-10% FPS degradation WHEN 3D VISION IS ENABLE in NVPANEL (But not activated... AKA rendering 2D while 3D Vision works in the background) Which WAS ALWAYS the CASE. That is a driver overhead! Just by gimping the CPU or whatever, doesn't prove anything... Sure, you enforce a "bottleneck" somewhere (CPU) but that is it sadly...
IN 3D you take that 2D FPS and divide it by 2. (Which is exactly what I see)
That is exactly what I am seeing! No matter how much the GPU OR CPU IS STRESSED (or unstressed).
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported [color="orange"]LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! [/color] That is the true problem and it seems to [color="green"]AFFECT ONLY PASCAL![/color] If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the framerates in both 2D and 3D...
EDIT2: All those number, as awesome as their are for statistics, mean nothing sadly... We need a proper and valid case to get this one fixed for Pascal GPUs. Like I said in a PM, I'll personally chase this one down with NVIDIA to fix it, but currently, I look and can't find anything conclusive... Sure there are reports, but not IN COMPARISON!
(How do they show benchamarks for CPUs? The compare them side-by-side. This is what we need!) Fermi, Maxwell works perfectly fine, yet Pascal doesn't... So, where is the issue? ;)
Not trying to be a "dick" but I think we are handling the problem the "wrong way" and we will get nowhere...
Witcher 3 -> 3D Vision Enabledbut not Activated - I get around 80-83 FPS
Witcher 3 -> 3D Vision Enabledand Activated - I get around 45 FPS.
And what is the problem there? Running things in 3D is always 2D FPS/2 (because we render twice)... How am I supposed to get 80 FPS in 3D? That would require 160 in 2D...
(I see there is a big confusion around for some reason and people still don't understand after 6 years how Stereo works...)
---
IMO, is not worth it.. you see a problem where none exits... but whatever... I'll leave this thread and rather focus on constructive things rather than "conspiracy theories"... Better yet, maybe is time to leave this forum (3D Vision) for good and move to other things... as I see a lot of people did lately...
---
Back to topic:
What I see 5-10% FPS degradation WHEN 3D VISION IS ENABLE in NVPANEL (But not activated... AKA rendering 2D while 3D Vision works in the background) Which WAS ALWAYS the CASE. That is a driver overhead! Just by gimping the CPU or whatever, doesn't prove anything... Sure, you enforce a "bottleneck" somewhere (CPU) but that is it sadly...
IN 3D you take that 2D FPS and divide it by 2. (Which is exactly what I see)
That is exactly what I am seeing! No matter how much the GPU OR CPU IS STRESSED (or unstressed).
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! That is the true problem and it seems to AFFECT ONLY PASCAL! If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the framerates in both 2D and 3D...
EDIT2: All those number, as awesome as their are for statistics, mean nothing sadly... We need a proper and valid case to get this one fixed for Pascal GPUs. Like I said in a PM, I'll personally chase this one down with NVIDIA to fix it, but currently, I look and can't find anything conclusive... Sure there are reports, but not IN COMPARISON!
(How do they show benchamarks for CPUs? The compare them side-by-side. This is what we need!) Fermi, Maxwell works perfectly fine, yet Pascal doesn't... So, where is the issue? ;)
Not trying to be a "dick" but I think we are handling the problem the "wrong way" and we will get nowhere...
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="helifax"]
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported [color="orange"]LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! [/color] That is the true problem and it seems to [color="green"]AFFECT ONLY PASCAL![/color] If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
[/quote]
That is why I am right now not presenting my issues to Nvidia as a CPU issue per say, but a driver issue. I have also decided to focus on one game with them (Arkham Origins) and letting them draw the conclusions. Hopefully I can get them to setup a test rig and see for themselves what is happening. Because like you said I also always saw 1/2 of 2d fps in 3D, but for me the heavy stuttering in certain games is something entirely new and either a Win 10 or Pascal issue, or both.
helifax said:
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! That is the true problem and it seems to AFFECT ONLY PASCAL! If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
That is why I am right now not presenting my issues to Nvidia as a CPU issue per say, but a driver issue. I have also decided to focus on one game with them (Arkham Origins) and letting them draw the conclusions. Hopefully I can get them to setup a test rig and see for themselves what is happening. Because like you said I also always saw 1/2 of 2d fps in 3D, but for me the heavy stuttering in certain games is something entirely new and either a Win 10 or Pascal issue, or both.
helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
I am open to the possibility that I am wrong.
Are you open to the possibility that you might be wrong?
Let's take it from the top.
3D Vision doubles the GPU usage, NOT the CPU usage. The GPU is the reason the FPS is halved, not the CPU. When the GPU is being saturated (which in most games is 90% of the time), you will always get half the FPS in 3D because 3D required double the GPU performance. BUT when the GPU is working at 50% in 2D, you SHOULD get the SAME fps in 2D AND 3D, in 3D the GPU will just be working twice as hard, at 100% :)
The other scenario is when the GPU is being the bottleneck, being saturated at 100%, then the CPU usage is LOW because it has nothing to do.
This is why in this test, we have to remove the GPU from our tests. This is why we ask that you set all GPU settings to their lowest, resolution, antialiasing etc.
Under 3D Vision, when the GPU is not being saturated, the CPU usage seems to be decreasing substantially. This has been shown by quite a few people on this thead alone. There are a ton of other people who have demonstrated the exact same problem in GTA5 where CPU usage plummets - This was before Pascal cards were even released. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a fact.
Lastly,
[color="gray"]"EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the frame rates in both 2D and 3D..."[/color]
If your original GPU usage was 70% as you stated in your post, enabling SLi would NOT double the FPS, it would in fact do nothing at all :)
Your FPS would only be doubled if the GPU was at 100% saturation, and the CPU wasn't causing the bottleneck.
Please relax, and let's talk this through. If you don't want to contribute to this thread, then please by all means don't. I hope you will stick around here though, as we all look up to your sage coding skills :)
helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
I am open to the possibility that I am wrong.
Are you open to the possibility that you might be wrong?
Let's take it from the top.
3D Vision doubles the GPU usage, NOT the CPU usage. The GPU is the reason the FPS is halved, not the CPU. When the GPU is being saturated (which in most games is 90% of the time), you will always get half the FPS in 3D because 3D required double the GPU performance. BUT when the GPU is working at 50% in 2D, you SHOULD get the SAME fps in 2D AND 3D, in 3D the GPU will just be working twice as hard, at 100% :)
The other scenario is when the GPU is being the bottleneck, being saturated at 100%, then the CPU usage is LOW because it has nothing to do.
This is why in this test, we have to remove the GPU from our tests. This is why we ask that you set all GPU settings to their lowest, resolution, antialiasing etc.
Under 3D Vision, when the GPU is not being saturated, the CPU usage seems to be decreasing substantially. This has been shown by quite a few people on this thead alone. There are a ton of other people who have demonstrated the exact same problem in GTA5 where CPU usage plummets - This was before Pascal cards were even released. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a fact.
Lastly,
"EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the frame rates in both 2D and 3D..."
If your original GPU usage was 70% as you stated in your post, enabling SLi would NOT double the FPS, it would in fact do nothing at all :)
Your FPS would only be doubled if the GPU was at 100% saturation, and the CPU wasn't causing the bottleneck.
Please relax, and let's talk this through. If you don't want to contribute to this thread, then please by all means don't. I hope you will stick around here though, as we all look up to your sage coding skills :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="terintamel"][quote="helifax"]
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported [color="orange"]LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! [/color] That is the true problem and it seems to [color="green"]AFFECT ONLY PASCAL![/color] If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
[/quote]
That is why I am right now not presenting my issues to Nvidia as a CPU issue per say, but a driver issue. I have also decided to focus on one game with them (Arkham Origins) and letting them draw the conclusions. Hopefully I can get them to setup a test rig and see for themselves what is happening. Because like you said I also always saw 1/2 of 2d fps in 3D, but for me the heavy stuttering in certain games is something entirely new and either a Win 10 or Pascal issue, or both.[/quote]
I agree with that;) And I can totally see where you are going!
Tell you what! If you are in the UK, I can send you a Mxwell GPU that I have around, to put it in you RIG (same OS, driver, same games) and see if it works differently! (The GPU is a 780 Titanium - GTX 780Ti).
If we can show that Fermi/Maxwell works perfectly (which I can't make it work otherwise no matter what I try), but Pascal doesn't... then we have a [color="green"]SOLID[/color] case and we can "bash" Nvidia with it;)
(They will fix it if we show it to them... otherwise chances are very slim for them to investigate it... They Fix Reported Bugs for 3D Vision... And I bet their budget only allows them to do ONLY that... So, they can't chase around...:( )
helifax said:
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! That is the true problem and it seems to AFFECT ONLY PASCAL! If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
That is why I am right now not presenting my issues to Nvidia as a CPU issue per say, but a driver issue. I have also decided to focus on one game with them (Arkham Origins) and letting them draw the conclusions. Hopefully I can get them to setup a test rig and see for themselves what is happening. Because like you said I also always saw 1/2 of 2d fps in 3D, but for me the heavy stuttering in certain games is something entirely new and either a Win 10 or Pascal issue, or both.
I agree with that;) And I can totally see where you are going!
Tell you what! If you are in the UK, I can send you a Mxwell GPU that I have around, to put it in you RIG (same OS, driver, same games) and see if it works differently! (The GPU is a 780 Titanium - GTX 780Ti).
If we can show that Fermi/Maxwell works perfectly (which I can't make it work otherwise no matter what I try), but Pascal doesn't... then we have a SOLID case and we can "bash" Nvidia with it;)
(They will fix it if we show it to them... otherwise chances are very slim for them to investigate it... They Fix Reported Bugs for 3D Vision... And I bet their budget only allows them to do ONLY that... So, they can't chase around...:( )
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="RAGEdemon"]helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
[/quote]
Hhahaha... It's very strange that people always think that I am stressed, nervous or upset when I type;))
I think is the way I formulate my sentences or something;) (Yes, I agree, they do like to be "dramatic" and really "point-blank shot" and maybe that's why it seems I am "upset" or something).
I am not! Definitely not! Maybe I am just more direct or even aggressive in my speech/writting, but I mean quite the opposite;) I just want to "emphasis" my results and findings and I am definitely not trying to "pick a fight" :)
You have nothing to apologise for ;) I am sorry, if it sounded "harsh" or anything like that;)
EDIT: Turning SLI does in fact doubles the frame for both 2D and 3D. Instead of having one GPU working at 60-70% and one at 0%, now I have 2 working at 55-65% and with approx. double Framerates (mostly seen in 3D, but you can measure it and see it as a number in 2D as well). I can prove this any time of day, both on Surround and Single Screen:)
RAGEdemon said:helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
Hhahaha... It's very strange that people always think that I am stressed, nervous or upset when I type;))
I think is the way I formulate my sentences or something;) (Yes, I agree, they do like to be "dramatic" and really "point-blank shot" and maybe that's why it seems I am "upset" or something).
I am not! Definitely not! Maybe I am just more direct or even aggressive in my speech/writting, but I mean quite the opposite;) I just want to "emphasis" my results and findings and I am definitely not trying to "pick a fight" :)
You have nothing to apologise for ;) I am sorry, if it sounded "harsh" or anything like that;)
EDIT: Turning SLI does in fact doubles the frame for both 2D and 3D. Instead of having one GPU working at 60-70% and one at 0%, now I have 2 working at 55-65% and with approx. double Framerates (mostly seen in 3D, but you can measure it and see it as a number in 2D as well). I can prove this any time of day, both on Surround and Single Screen:)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="helifax"][quote="RAGEdemon"]helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
[/quote]
Hhahaha... It's very strange that people always think that I am stressed, nervous or upset when I type;))
I think is the way I formulate my sentences or something;) (Yes, I agree, they do like to be "dramatic" and really "point-blank shot" and maybe that's why it seems I am "upset" or something).
I am not! Definitely not! Maybe I am just more direct or even aggressive in my speech/writting, but I mean quite the opposite;) I just want to "emphasis" my results and findings and I am definitely not trying to "pick a fight" :)
You have nothing to apologise for ;) I am sorry, if it sounded "harsh" or anything like that;) [/quote]
No hard feelings mate.
[quote="helifax"]EDIT: Turning SLI does in fact doubles the frame for both 2D and 3D. Instead of having one GPU working at 60-70% and one at 0%, now I have 2 working at 55-65% and with approx. double Framerates (mostly seen in 3D, but you can measure it and see it as a number in 2D as well). I can prove this any time of day, both on Surround and Single Screen:)[/quote]
I'm afraid there is some serious error here somewhere. I can post screenshots of a typical game and how it should be. Right now, I am playing the Witcher 3:
Single Card 2D = 93 FPS, GPU usage = 60 %
Single Card 3D = 48 FPS, GPU usage = 68 %
SLi 3D = 93 FPS, GPU1 = 34, GPU2 = 35 %
SLi 3D = 50 FPS, GPU1 = 37, GPU2 = 39 %
This is how all games are, at least on a single display. I don't know how your multiple displays are setup.
This is also logical. 2 GPUs working at half the rate of a single GPU to give the same FPS.
If you don't believe me, I would be happy to take screenshots :)
Please set to single dislplay and test for yourself :)
RAGEdemon said:helifax, relax mate. Take a deep breath. There is no need to get agitated. I am really sorry if you feel this way. If I have done anything to offend you then I do apologise. If I am being stupid, then please forgive my stupidity, there is no reason to be annoyed :)
Hhahaha... It's very strange that people always think that I am stressed, nervous or upset when I type;))
I think is the way I formulate my sentences or something;) (Yes, I agree, they do like to be "dramatic" and really "point-blank shot" and maybe that's why it seems I am "upset" or something).
I am not! Definitely not! Maybe I am just more direct or even aggressive in my speech/writting, but I mean quite the opposite;) I just want to "emphasis" my results and findings and I am definitely not trying to "pick a fight" :)
You have nothing to apologise for ;) I am sorry, if it sounded "harsh" or anything like that;)
No hard feelings mate.
helifax said:EDIT: Turning SLI does in fact doubles the frame for both 2D and 3D. Instead of having one GPU working at 60-70% and one at 0%, now I have 2 working at 55-65% and with approx. double Framerates (mostly seen in 3D, but you can measure it and see it as a number in 2D as well). I can prove this any time of day, both on Surround and Single Screen:)
I'm afraid there is some serious error here somewhere. I can post screenshots of a typical game and how it should be. Right now, I am playing the Witcher 3:
Single Card 2D = 93 FPS, GPU usage = 60 %
Single Card 3D = 48 FPS, GPU usage = 68 %
This is how all games are, at least on a single display. I don't know how your multiple displays are setup.
This is also logical. 2 GPUs working at half the rate of a single GPU to give the same FPS.
If you don't believe me, I would be happy to take screenshots :)
Please set to single dislplay and test for yourself :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I'll need to get home this evening and show you how SLI is working in a Single Screen Scenario:)
Since you use the Witcher 3, we will use this one as an example;) But I am not sure I can show this on 1080p.
SLI will always Double (or try to) your FPS. This ofc, if the scaling is perfect and if you DON'T have a FPS lock or other bottleneck.
In your example above, SLI seems to work but by always maintaining the target of 90 FPS. And you can actually see SLI working by offloading half the work-load on the 2nd GPU.
It should do exactly the opposite. Keep the load (whatever you get on a Single GPU). The second GPU comes in with the same load and as a result you get 2x performance.
What you show there looks like a something is not working right there.. Almost looks like negative scaling or no scaling at all. That is not SLI, is just "split work". Something funky there...
[quote]
SLi 3D = 50 FPS, GPU1 = 37, GPU2 = 39 %
[/quote]
Holly cow... you can't get 60 FPS with SLI on a single screen in Witcher 3 ???
That is a serious problem.. I can get to 60FPS in SLI (2x980TI) in 1080p constantly no problem....
(As a matter of fact I get around 40-45 FPS in 3D Surround). Something is definitely wrong there....
I'll need to get home this evening and show you how SLI is working in a Single Screen Scenario:)
Since you use the Witcher 3, we will use this one as an example;) But I am not sure I can show this on 1080p.
SLI will always Double (or try to) your FPS. This ofc, if the scaling is perfect and if you DON'T have a FPS lock or other bottleneck.
In your example above, SLI seems to work but by always maintaining the target of 90 FPS. And you can actually see SLI working by offloading half the work-load on the 2nd GPU.
It should do exactly the opposite. Keep the load (whatever you get on a Single GPU). The second GPU comes in with the same load and as a result you get 2x performance.
What you show there looks like a something is not working right there.. Almost looks like negative scaling or no scaling at all. That is not SLI, is just "split work". Something funky there...
SLi 3D = 50 FPS, GPU1 = 37, GPU2 = 39 %
Holly cow... you can't get 60 FPS with SLI on a single screen in Witcher 3 ???
That is a serious problem.. I can get to 60FPS in SLI (2x980TI) in 1080p constantly no problem....
(As a matter of fact I get around 40-45 FPS in 3D Surround). Something is definitely wrong there....
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
I'm speaking to everyone here as I would like to preface the rest of my posts with something. I see that a lot of people have egos on the internet. This isn't the place for them. This is a place to learn from each other, not compare who knows what, or who is right and who is wrong. In that regard, I will lay my ego bare: I am a stupid guy who knows nothing. I don't think I'm smart, or that I am right. I only seek the truth. I hope to learn from everyone, and I hope we can all learn from each other. I am completely open to the possibility that I am wrong. Good, I hope I am!
Now, onto the specifics,
helifax mate, this entire thread is about a CPU bottleneck, and I am talking about a CPU bottlenecked scenario. You on the other hand seem to be talking about a GPU bottlenecked scenario, but I am unsure as your CPU and GPU % just don't add up, maybe because of your multi screen setup. :)
No offence, but just on the other thread the other day, I had to share my knowledge with people (including yourself) regarding physical and virtual cores. You know a world more than me about coding, but perhaps there are some things which I might be able to enlighten you with?
[color="green"]Remember that this is CPU/GPU scaling fundamentals 101, so everything we talk about in this post is purely in 2D (We will get to 3D later once we are all on the same page). Ok, let's begin...[/color]
[b]Fact: Setting low resolution / graphics settings vs setting high resolution and high graphics settings have about the exact same load on the CPU. The only loading that changes is on the GPU.
[/b]
[color="green"][Preface: numbers below are ideal cases, and do not perfectly represent real life scenareos, but are close approximations][/color]
For example,
[color="green"]Scenareo 1, CPU bottlenecking GPU and FPS.[/color]
Game = Some_Game_Name
Resolution = 1080p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 50%
FPS = 100FPS [color="green"](CPU bottleneck)[/color]
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~25%
FPS = Still 100 fps [color="green"](CPU bottleneck)[/color]
[color="green"]Scenareo 2, no CPU or GPU bottleneck.[/color]
Upping the resolution to 1440p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 100FPS [color="green"](no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)[/color]
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~50%
FPS = Still 100 fps [color="green"](CPU bottleneck)[/color]
[color="green"]Scenareo 3, GPU bottlenecking CPU and FPS.[/color]
Upping the resolution to 4k
CPU usage = 40%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 50FPS [color="green"](GPU bottleneck)[/color]
If SLI,
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage on each card = 100%
FPS = 100 fps [color="green"](no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)[/color]
1. In the 1080p scenario, the CPU is being maxed out by the game threads at 80% usage. This is the max that the CPU can be used by the game. We know this because the GPU is less than saturation (i.e. < 95% or so). Here, nomatter how powerful your graphics card, or how many cards you have in SLi, you will never have anything higher than 100 FPS because the CPU is holding the GPUs back. [color="gray"][i](Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will increase/decrease linearly with the CPU clock speed!)[/i][/color]
2. The 1440p Scenario is where we have doubled the resolution. The CPU is being utelised at 80% max. Due to doubling the resolution, there is no extra strain on the CPU but there is a double strain on the GPU, so the GPU will go to 100%, but your FPS will still be 100FPS. Adding SLi here will drop the GPUs down to 50% each, but your FPS will still be the same because the CPU will then become the bottleneck.
3. Now look at what happens when you finally come to a GPU bottleneck (What you are talking about):
The 4k Scenario is where we have quadrupled the resolution. Because of this huge resolution, the GPU is the new bottleneck. The GPU can't supply FPS by number crunching fast enough so the CPU (remember there is no impact on the CPU when you increase resolution or graphics settings) has nothing to do half the time, so the CPU usage is very low, say 40%. Due to quadrupling the resolution, there is quadruple the strain on the GPU. Your single card will be at 100% but of course, only being able to produce 50 fps. [color="gray"][i](Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will NOT CHANGE, because the CPU is sitting idle half the time already!, However, the CPU USAGE will show a change in average usage because the game threads are being processed in more or less CPU time due to the overclock / underclock!)[/i][/color]
NOW, if you SLi, your SLi will have both cards at 100%, and your CPU can finally stretch is muscles because there is no GPU bottleneck, so it too can work at its full capacity for the game (80%). This means that you get double your FPS, to 100fps.
[b]This is basic knowledge about CPU/GPU performance and scaling. If you don't understand this, you will definitely not be able to understand what is happening in my tests in this thread.
This is very important to understand, as 3D Vision, for all intents and purposes, is an extremely similar performance impact as doubling the game resolution.
[/b]
helifax, what you said in your post above is that you had 60% GPU usage (CPU was being bottlenecked). Then you enabled SLi and your FPS doubled, while your GPU usage on both cards was around 66%. Friend, I am very sorry but that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. You also don't give me any CPU usage results, but talk about loads on physical and virtual cores which doesn't matter in your tests - there is no way to differentiate between the two (I must not have explained about virtual cores to you very well the other day, I'm stupid, remember? ;-)). Like I said mate, you are a smart guy, and I think you know a great deal; but I think there are some fundamental missunderstandings when it comes to hardware. I'll learn from you, and I hope I can share my knowledge with you at the same time :)
What truly happens if your GPU is at 60% is that you are CPU bottlenecked. Enabling SLi, you are STILL cpu bottlecked, your FPS will stay exactly the same, but your GPU usage on each card would be significantly lower.
I'm speaking to everyone here as I would like to preface the rest of my posts with something. I see that a lot of people have egos on the internet. This isn't the place for them. This is a place to learn from each other, not compare who knows what, or who is right and who is wrong. In that regard, I will lay my ego bare: I am a stupid guy who knows nothing. I don't think I'm smart, or that I am right. I only seek the truth. I hope to learn from everyone, and I hope we can all learn from each other. I am completely open to the possibility that I am wrong. Good, I hope I am!
Now, onto the specifics,
helifax mate, this entire thread is about a CPU bottleneck, and I am talking about a CPU bottlenecked scenario. You on the other hand seem to be talking about a GPU bottlenecked scenario, but I am unsure as your CPU and GPU % just don't add up, maybe because of your multi screen setup. :)
No offence, but just on the other thread the other day, I had to share my knowledge with people (including yourself) regarding physical and virtual cores. You know a world more than me about coding, but perhaps there are some things which I might be able to enlighten you with?
Remember that this is CPU/GPU scaling fundamentals 101, so everything we talk about in this post is purely in 2D (We will get to 3D later once we are all on the same page). Ok, let's begin...
Fact: Setting low resolution / graphics settings vs setting high resolution and high graphics settings have about the exact same load on the CPU. The only loading that changes is on the GPU.
[Preface: numbers below are ideal cases, and do not perfectly represent real life scenareos, but are close approximations]
For example,
Scenareo 1, CPU bottlenecking GPU and FPS.
Game = Some_Game_Name
Resolution = 1080p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 50%
FPS = 100FPS (CPU bottleneck)
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~25%
FPS = Still 100 fps (CPU bottleneck)
Scenareo 2, no CPU or GPU bottleneck.
Upping the resolution to 1440p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 100FPS (no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~50%
FPS = Still 100 fps (CPU bottleneck)
Scenareo 3, GPU bottlenecking CPU and FPS.
Upping the resolution to 4k
CPU usage = 40%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 50FPS (GPU bottleneck)
If SLI,
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage on each card = 100%
FPS = 100 fps (no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)
1. In the 1080p scenario, the CPU is being maxed out by the game threads at 80% usage. This is the max that the CPU can be used by the game. We know this because the GPU is less than saturation (i.e. < 95% or so). Here, nomatter how powerful your graphics card, or how many cards you have in SLi, you will never have anything higher than 100 FPS because the CPU is holding the GPUs back. (Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will increase/decrease linearly with the CPU clock speed!)
2. The 1440p Scenario is where we have doubled the resolution. The CPU is being utelised at 80% max. Due to doubling the resolution, there is no extra strain on the CPU but there is a double strain on the GPU, so the GPU will go to 100%, but your FPS will still be 100FPS. Adding SLi here will drop the GPUs down to 50% each, but your FPS will still be the same because the CPU will then become the bottleneck.
3. Now look at what happens when you finally come to a GPU bottleneck (What you are talking about):
The 4k Scenario is where we have quadrupled the resolution. Because of this huge resolution, the GPU is the new bottleneck. The GPU can't supply FPS by number crunching fast enough so the CPU (remember there is no impact on the CPU when you increase resolution or graphics settings) has nothing to do half the time, so the CPU usage is very low, say 40%. Due to quadrupling the resolution, there is quadruple the strain on the GPU. Your single card will be at 100% but of course, only being able to produce 50 fps. (Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will NOT CHANGE, because the CPU is sitting idle half the time already!, However, the CPU USAGE will show a change in average usage because the game threads are being processed in more or less CPU time due to the overclock / underclock!)
NOW, if you SLi, your SLi will have both cards at 100%, and your CPU can finally stretch is muscles because there is no GPU bottleneck, so it too can work at its full capacity for the game (80%). This means that you get double your FPS, to 100fps.
This is basic knowledge about CPU/GPU performance and scaling. If you don't understand this, you will definitely not be able to understand what is happening in my tests in this thread.
This is very important to understand, as 3D Vision, for all intents and purposes, is an extremely similar performance impact as doubling the game resolution.
helifax, what you said in your post above is that you had 60% GPU usage (CPU was being bottlenecked). Then you enabled SLi and your FPS doubled, while your GPU usage on both cards was around 66%. Friend, I am very sorry but that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. You also don't give me any CPU usage results, but talk about loads on physical and virtual cores which doesn't matter in your tests - there is no way to differentiate between the two (I must not have explained about virtual cores to you very well the other day, I'm stupid, remember? ;-)). Like I said mate, you are a smart guy, and I think you know a great deal; but I think there are some fundamental missunderstandings when it comes to hardware. I'll learn from you, and I hope I can share my knowledge with you at the same time :)
What truly happens if your GPU is at 60% is that you are CPU bottlenecked. Enabling SLi, you are STILL cpu bottlecked, your FPS will stay exactly the same, but your GPU usage on each card would be significantly lower.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I... NVM
I'm out from here... No matter what I will say it will look like I'm picking on people. So, I will refrain.
This thread is now dead to me, as is your problem.
Good luck fixing it! Hope Nvidia listens (and lols at the same time).
PS: Also, I would appreciate if I don't get any PMs regarding this thread of anything related to it. Thank you!
I... NVM
I'm out from here... No matter what I will say it will look like I'm picking on people. So, I will refrain.
This thread is now dead to me, as is your problem.
Good luck fixing it! Hope Nvidia listens (and lols at the same time).
PS: Also, I would appreciate if I don't get any PMs regarding this thread of anything related to it. Thank you!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[s]Just for the fun of it.
Here is the data you wanted:
CPU clocked to 3.0GHz.
GPUs not even kicking the P2 state lol (as is not needed).
Resolution 1024x768.
(Ignore the memory readings. They will go "wild" if you enable/disable SLI without restarting MSI Afterburner)
[color="orange"]Single GPU - 3D Vision Disabled[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=cwslrt1p.1jn.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/cwslrt1p.1jn.jpg[/img][/url]
[color="orange"]Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=n2gs4y2h.dfw.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/n2gs4y2h.dfw.jpg[/img][/url]
[color="orange"]Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=urhbqlm5.2ci.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/urhbqlm5.2ci.jpg[/img][/url]
[color="orange"]SLI - 3D Vision Disabled[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=zx02sjei.as3.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/zx02sjei.as3.jpg[/img][/url]
[color="orange"]SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=520mc0v2.wfl.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/520mc0v2.wfl.jpg[/img][/url]
[color="orange"]SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active[/color]
[url=http://www.iforce.co.nz/View.aspx?i=k4jdo5ap.hng.jpg][img]http://iforce.co.nz/i/k4jdo5ap.hng.jpg[/img][/url]
Will not even go in Surround as no one here gives a F about it, except me. (But it becomes clearer in Surround where the GPU will always be over-taxed).
Proves exactly what I was saying: there is no problem. Every game uses TIME to "advance the state". There are other synchronisation timers running. Your CPU will never be used 100% as it will exhaust it and will give you an OS Kernel Panic Anyway. (Games don't run in a "while (1)" loop you know;) Clearly none of you here have ever seen or worked with an RTOS.)
In any case you will say this is CPU bound more or less... But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever...
Perhaps you should enlighten me and tell me what I "should see", as I find the current behaviour correct.
In any case. Your problem is that you see sub-par FPS when 3D Vision is enabled (and stutter). I just showed you that the FPS impact should be around 5% (if you have room in the CPU/GPU for the extra operations). What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures.
Cheers![/s]
Just for the fun of it.
Here is the data you wanted:
CPU clocked to 3.0GHz.
GPUs not even kicking the P2 state lol (as is not needed).
Resolution 1024x768.
(Ignore the memory readings. They will go "wild" if you enable/disable SLI without restarting MSI Afterburner)
Single GPU - 3D Vision Disabled
Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE
Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active
SLI - 3D Vision Disabled
SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE
SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active
Will not even go in Surround as no one here gives a F about it, except me. (But it becomes clearer in Surround where the GPU will always be over-taxed).
Proves exactly what I was saying: there is no problem. Every game uses TIME to "advance the state". There are other synchronisation timers running. Your CPU will never be used 100% as it will exhaust it and will give you an OS Kernel Panic Anyway. (Games don't run in a "while (1)" loop you know;) Clearly none of you here have ever seen or worked with an RTOS.)
In any case you will say this is CPU bound more or less... But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever...
Perhaps you should enlighten me and tell me what I "should see", as I find the current behaviour correct.
In any case. Your problem is that you see sub-par FPS when 3D Vision is enabled (and stutter). I just showed you that the FPS impact should be around 5% (if you have room in the CPU/GPU for the extra operations). What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures.
Cheers!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Thanks for the tests, helifax. There is at least one definitive fact about all this: we need better CPUs (with a lot better single core performance), now.
With double the current Intel single core performance, I think all (or most) games would be working perfectly. But current progress is too slow. I want to freeze myself. Wake me up in 20 years :).
Thanks for the tests, helifax. There is at least one definitive fact about all this: we need better CPUs (with a lot better single core performance), now.
With double the current Intel single core performance, I think all (or most) games would be working perfectly. But current progress is too slow. I want to freeze myself. Wake me up in 20 years :).
Thanks for your tests helifax, whatever you want mate, I wont bother you, and no-one is really bothered whether you post in this thread or not :)
Your single card tests are useless because the GPU is being saturated, even though I asked you about 4 times in various different posts to ensure that wasn't the case by going to places like central novigrad, so we'll have to disregard them and count on your SLi tests instead ;-)
Regardless, as I explained to you and you can clearly see from your own results, SLi vs Non SLi in a CPU constrained scenario does not double your FPS as you previously claimed. 173fps vs 200 FPS is what is seen, but even that is because the 173fps is due to the GPU being saturated at 99%, otherwise it would also have been 200 fps ಠ╭╮ಠ
Your results are as follows:
Game: [color="green"]helifax's Witcher 3 test in SLi[/color]
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
48% CPU usage
70% GPU usage
201 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
43% CPU usage
80% GPU usage
133 FPS
Summary:
2D Performance 100%
3D Performance (133fps / 201fps) x 100 = 66%
CPU usage drop in 3D Vision = [(2D 48% CPU usage) - (3D 43% CPU usage)] / 2D 48% CPU usage) x 100 =[color="green"]10% CPU usage drop caused by 3D Vision[/color]
100-66 = [color="green"]33% performance drop due purely to this CPU bottleneck caused by 3D Vision.[/color]
[color="gray"]"But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever"[/color]
Your own benchmarks show that 3D Vision caused a 10% drop in CPU usage mate. Are you arguing with your own results?
Also, Enabling 3D Vision does not half your FPS as you earlier claimed (200 FPS 3D Off vs 133FPS 3D On)
If the CPU wasn't performing 10% slower, your 3D FPS would be a lot higher. In fact, OC your CPU to 5GHz and take the same test. I will bet that your 133 FPS will be a lot higher. This is also why we know that it's a CPU bottleneck issue, because the FPS and GPU usage will scale up as you increase the CPU clock.
[color="gray"]"Your CPU will never be used 100%"[/color]
No-one ever said it would. The CPU usage is dependent only on how efficiently it can be used by the number of threads a game can generate. For the 10th time, all we are trying to show is that the CPU is being used less in 3D Vision than in 2D, and now you have proven it yourself with your own results. I really don't know if you are trolling me, but perhaps it's best if you don't respond after all if you don't want to. I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
[color="gray"]"What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures."[/color]
As I have said before many times to you, EVERYONE has the exact same problem in GTA5, even at release when Pascal wasn't even announced. It's Especially prominent in heavily multi-threaded games such as GTA5, but the problem exists in most if not all games.
Check out the comments here:
https://helixmod.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/gta-v-dx11.html
And I figured it out here on my MAXWELL cards:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Just because you can't understand the problem doesn't automatically mean it does not exist mate :)
There is just no need to get hostile and laugh at me if nVidia doesn't respond. This fix would have benifited us all, including yourself. Indeed I expect that this is a deep routed problem within the driver, which nVidia will not have the designated resources to tackle. I doubt they will do a thing.
Best of luck to you mate. You have contributed so much to 3D Vision, and I thank you very much for that.
@masterotaku
Yes, unfortunately the IPC performance has only gone up ~5% per generation over the last 7 years. Intel even confirmed that the new KabyLake CPUs hitting the shelves in a few months won't even have better IPC than SkyLake. We desperately need faster CPUs but we are at a limit until new materials become viable to replace Silicon :)
Thanks for your tests helifax, whatever you want mate, I wont bother you, and no-one is really bothered whether you post in this thread or not :)
Your single card tests are useless because the GPU is being saturated, even though I asked you about 4 times in various different posts to ensure that wasn't the case by going to places like central novigrad, so we'll have to disregard them and count on your SLi tests instead ;-)
Regardless, as I explained to you and you can clearly see from your own results, SLi vs Non SLi in a CPU constrained scenario does not double your FPS as you previously claimed. 173fps vs 200 FPS is what is seen, but even that is because the 173fps is due to the GPU being saturated at 99%, otherwise it would also have been 200 fps ಠ╭╮ಠ
Your results are as follows:
Game: helifax's Witcher 3 test in SLi
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
48% CPU usage
70% GPU usage
201 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
43% CPU usage
80% GPU usage
133 FPS
Summary:
2D Performance 100%
3D Performance (133fps / 201fps) x 100 = 66%
CPU usage drop in 3D Vision = [(2D 48% CPU usage) - (3D 43% CPU usage)] / 2D 48% CPU usage) x 100 =10% CPU usage drop caused by 3D Vision
100-66 = 33% performance drop due purely to this CPU bottleneck caused by 3D Vision.
"But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever"
Your own benchmarks show that 3D Vision caused a 10% drop in CPU usage mate. Are you arguing with your own results?
Also, Enabling 3D Vision does not half your FPS as you earlier claimed (200 FPS 3D Off vs 133FPS 3D On)
If the CPU wasn't performing 10% slower, your 3D FPS would be a lot higher. In fact, OC your CPU to 5GHz and take the same test. I will bet that your 133 FPS will be a lot higher. This is also why we know that it's a CPU bottleneck issue, because the FPS and GPU usage will scale up as you increase the CPU clock.
"Your CPU will never be used 100%"
No-one ever said it would. The CPU usage is dependent only on how efficiently it can be used by the number of threads a game can generate. For the 10th time, all we are trying to show is that the CPU is being used less in 3D Vision than in 2D, and now you have proven it yourself with your own results. I really don't know if you are trolling me, but perhaps it's best if you don't respond after all if you don't want to. I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
"What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures."
As I have said before many times to you, EVERYONE has the exact same problem in GTA5, even at release when Pascal wasn't even announced. It's Especially prominent in heavily multi-threaded games such as GTA5, but the problem exists in most if not all games.
And I figured it out here on my MAXWELL cards:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Just because you can't understand the problem doesn't automatically mean it does not exist mate :)
There is just no need to get hostile and laugh at me if nVidia doesn't respond. This fix would have benifited us all, including yourself. Indeed I expect that this is a deep routed problem within the driver, which nVidia will not have the designated resources to tackle. I doubt they will do a thing.
Best of luck to you mate. You have contributed so much to 3D Vision, and I thank you very much for that.
@masterotaku
Yes, unfortunately the IPC performance has only gone up ~5% per generation over the last 7 years. Intel even confirmed that the new KabyLake CPUs hitting the shelves in a few months won't even have better IPC than SkyLake. We desperately need faster CPUs but we are at a limit until new materials become viable to replace Silicon :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote]
Your single card tests are useless because the GPU is being saturated, even though I asked you about 4 times in various different posts to ensure that wasn't the case by going to places like central novigrad, so we'll have to disregard them and count on your SLi tests instead ;-)
Regardless, as I explained to you and you can clearly see from your own results, SLi vs Non SLi in a CPU constrained scenario does not double your FPS as you previously claimed. 173fps vs 200 FPS is what is seen, but even that is because the 173fps is due to the GPU being saturated at 99%, otherwise it would also have been 200 fps ಠ╭╮ಠ
[/quote]
Should I cry or laugh....
Dude:
3D Vision Disabled 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled but non active 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled and active. 133 FPS.
200/2 = 100. GPU actually can push more and gives you 133.
If this is CPU bottleneck... STEREO IS MEANT TO RENDER THE SAME FRAME TWICE.
You either don't know how to count or....
There is NO CPU BOTTLENECK for the billion time!!! Also, You cannot run A GAME FASTER THAN REAL-TIME CLOCK... FFS...
Get your facts straight, cause the more you say the more you show the lack of understanding how things work...
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose". You clearly don't know anything about CPU + GPU computing and how they work.
If what you say is true, it should be present here as well... sigh...
Also with this
[quote]
No-one ever said it would. The CPU usage is dependent only on how efficiently it can be used by the number of threads a game can generate. For the 10th time, all we are trying to show is that the CPU is being used less in 3D Vision than in 2D, and now you have proven it yourself with your own results. I really don't know if you are trolling me, but perhaps it's best if you don't respond after all if you don't want to. I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
[/quote]
Do you really want to get on my nerves ... You would better revise this phrase... I don't know... Wow... Stick with whatever you do mate... Don't come tell me how things work... You clearly NOT demonstrated anything... You JUST TALK about thing YOU THINK SHOULD WORK IN A SPECIFIC WAY...
I'm out of this thread.... And I can say from now, I will make sure I will discard anything you "find" from now on... (as will Nvidia.)
Your single card tests are useless because the GPU is being saturated, even though I asked you about 4 times in various different posts to ensure that wasn't the case by going to places like central novigrad, so we'll have to disregard them and count on your SLi tests instead ;-)
Regardless, as I explained to you and you can clearly see from your own results, SLi vs Non SLi in a CPU constrained scenario does not double your FPS as you previously claimed. 173fps vs 200 FPS is what is seen, but even that is because the 173fps is due to the GPU being saturated at 99%, otherwise it would also have been 200 fps ಠ╭╮ಠ
Should I cry or laugh....
Dude:
3D Vision Disabled 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled but non active 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled and active. 133 FPS.
200/2 = 100. GPU actually can push more and gives you 133.
If this is CPU bottleneck... STEREO IS MEANT TO RENDER THE SAME FRAME TWICE.
You either don't know how to count or....
There is NO CPU BOTTLENECK for the billion time!!! Also, You cannot run A GAME FASTER THAN REAL-TIME CLOCK... FFS...
Get your facts straight, cause the more you say the more you show the lack of understanding how things work...
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose". You clearly don't know anything about CPU + GPU computing and how they work.
If what you say is true, it should be present here as well... sigh...
Also with this
No-one ever said it would. The CPU usage is dependent only on how efficiently it can be used by the number of threads a game can generate. For the 10th time, all we are trying to show is that the CPU is being used less in 3D Vision than in 2D, and now you have proven it yourself with your own results. I really don't know if you are trolling me, but perhaps it's best if you don't respond after all if you don't want to. I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
Do you really want to get on my nerves ... You would better revise this phrase... I don't know... Wow... Stick with whatever you do mate... Don't come tell me how things work... You clearly NOT demonstrated anything... You JUST TALK about thing YOU THINK SHOULD WORK IN A SPECIFIC WAY...
I'm out of this thread.... And I can say from now, I will make sure I will discard anything you "find" from now on... (as will Nvidia.)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Would you kindly kindly provide exact figures?
Forget the physical and virtual cores for the time being - the OS doesn't differentiate between them. Please just state the average CPU usage in each scenario with both 3D Vision on and off? Or just give me a screen capture of all 8 cores and I'll do the calculations for you :)
Witcher 3 -> 3D Vision Enabled but not activated - I get around 80-83 FPS
Witcher 3 -> 3D Enabled and Activated - I get around 45 FPS.
This shows that you do have the problem. Your 3D FPS should be 80, not 45. You say yourself that your GPU was never over 70%. If 3D Vision has next to no CPU overhead, why are your FPS chopped in half?
To prove that it is a CPU issue, put your CPU clock from 2GHz to 3GHz. You will notice that your 3D FPS will be higher! (Also, your GPU will be higher usage as a result of course!)
Please feel free to enable the other 980Ti for SLi. What we are trying to do is to ensure the GPUs aren't saturated in 3D or in 2D, so the more GPUs the merrier! I see yours were at 70% with SLi disabled, that's fine too :)
All we are trying to research here is what the CPU usage and FPS are like when the GPU is not being saturated, so an easy list like:
3D Vision OFF
Aver CPU usage = x
Average GPU = x
FPS = x
3D Vision ON
Aver CPU usage = y
Average GPU = y
FPS = y
Once this is obtained, you will notice that in most if not all of those games, enabling 3D Vision will REDUCE the average CPU usage by a significant margin, and the 3D FPS will decrease as a result.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
And what is the problem there? Running things in 3D is always 2D FPS/2 (because we render twice)... How am I supposed to get 80 FPS in 3D? That would require 160 in 2D...
(I see there is a big confusion around for some reason and people still don't understand after 6 years how Stereo works...)
---
IMO, is not worth it.. you see a problem where none exits... but whatever... I'll leave this thread and rather focus on constructive things rather than "conspiracy theories"... Better yet, maybe is time to leave this forum (3D Vision) for good and move to other things... as I see a lot of people did lately...
---
Back to topic:
What I see 5-10% FPS degradation WHEN 3D VISION IS ENABLE in NVPANEL (But not activated... AKA rendering 2D while 3D Vision works in the background) Which WAS ALWAYS the CASE. That is a driver overhead! Just by gimping the CPU or whatever, doesn't prove anything... Sure, you enforce a "bottleneck" somewhere (CPU) but that is it sadly...
IN 3D you take that 2D FPS and divide it by 2. (Which is exactly what I see)
That is exactly what I am seeing! No matter how much the GPU OR CPU IS STRESSED (or unstressed).
HOWEVER! I do believe there is a PROBLEM on Pascal GPUs as multiple people reported LOW CPU and GPU when 3D Vision is enabled!!! That is the true problem and it seems to AFFECT ONLY PASCAL! If you want Nvidia's attention prove that! That it works poor on Pascal but OK on Fermi/Maxwell because it freaking does!
EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the framerates in both 2D and 3D...
EDIT2: All those number, as awesome as their are for statistics, mean nothing sadly... We need a proper and valid case to get this one fixed for Pascal GPUs. Like I said in a PM, I'll personally chase this one down with NVIDIA to fix it, but currently, I look and can't find anything conclusive... Sure there are reports, but not IN COMPARISON!
(How do they show benchamarks for CPUs? The compare them side-by-side. This is what we need!) Fermi, Maxwell works perfectly fine, yet Pascal doesn't... So, where is the issue? ;)
Not trying to be a "dick" but I think we are handling the problem the "wrong way" and we will get nowhere...
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
That is why I am right now not presenting my issues to Nvidia as a CPU issue per say, but a driver issue. I have also decided to focus on one game with them (Arkham Origins) and letting them draw the conclusions. Hopefully I can get them to setup a test rig and see for themselves what is happening. Because like you said I also always saw 1/2 of 2d fps in 3D, but for me the heavy stuttering in certain games is something entirely new and either a Win 10 or Pascal issue, or both.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
I am open to the possibility that I am wrong.
Are you open to the possibility that you might be wrong?
Let's take it from the top.
3D Vision doubles the GPU usage, NOT the CPU usage. The GPU is the reason the FPS is halved, not the CPU. When the GPU is being saturated (which in most games is 90% of the time), you will always get half the FPS in 3D because 3D required double the GPU performance. BUT when the GPU is working at 50% in 2D, you SHOULD get the SAME fps in 2D AND 3D, in 3D the GPU will just be working twice as hard, at 100% :)
The other scenario is when the GPU is being the bottleneck, being saturated at 100%, then the CPU usage is LOW because it has nothing to do.
This is why in this test, we have to remove the GPU from our tests. This is why we ask that you set all GPU settings to their lowest, resolution, antialiasing etc.
Under 3D Vision, when the GPU is not being saturated, the CPU usage seems to be decreasing substantially. This has been shown by quite a few people on this thead alone. There are a ton of other people who have demonstrated the exact same problem in GTA5 where CPU usage plummets - This was before Pascal cards were even released. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is a fact.
Lastly,
"EDIT: Turning SLI does exactly what is mean to do... DOUBLES the frame rates in both 2D and 3D..."
If your original GPU usage was 70% as you stated in your post, enabling SLi would NOT double the FPS, it would in fact do nothing at all :)
Your FPS would only be doubled if the GPU was at 100% saturation, and the CPU wasn't causing the bottleneck.
Please relax, and let's talk this through. If you don't want to contribute to this thread, then please by all means don't. I hope you will stick around here though, as we all look up to your sage coding skills :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I agree with that;) And I can totally see where you are going!
Tell you what! If you are in the UK, I can send you a Mxwell GPU that I have around, to put it in you RIG (same OS, driver, same games) and see if it works differently! (The GPU is a 780 Titanium - GTX 780Ti).
If we can show that Fermi/Maxwell works perfectly (which I can't make it work otherwise no matter what I try), but Pascal doesn't... then we have a SOLID case and we can "bash" Nvidia with it;)
(They will fix it if we show it to them... otherwise chances are very slim for them to investigate it... They Fix Reported Bugs for 3D Vision... And I bet their budget only allows them to do ONLY that... So, they can't chase around...:( )
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Hhahaha... It's very strange that people always think that I am stressed, nervous or upset when I type;))
I think is the way I formulate my sentences or something;) (Yes, I agree, they do like to be "dramatic" and really "point-blank shot" and maybe that's why it seems I am "upset" or something).
I am not! Definitely not! Maybe I am just more direct or even aggressive in my speech/writting, but I mean quite the opposite;) I just want to "emphasis" my results and findings and I am definitely not trying to "pick a fight" :)
You have nothing to apologise for ;) I am sorry, if it sounded "harsh" or anything like that;)
EDIT: Turning SLI does in fact doubles the frame for both 2D and 3D. Instead of having one GPU working at 60-70% and one at 0%, now I have 2 working at 55-65% and with approx. double Framerates (mostly seen in 3D, but you can measure it and see it as a number in 2D as well). I can prove this any time of day, both on Surround and Single Screen:)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
No hard feelings mate.
I'm afraid there is some serious error here somewhere. I can post screenshots of a typical game and how it should be. Right now, I am playing the Witcher 3:
Single Card 2D = 93 FPS, GPU usage = 60 %
Single Card 3D = 48 FPS, GPU usage = 68 %
SLi 3D = 93 FPS, GPU1 = 34, GPU2 = 35 %
SLi 3D = 50 FPS, GPU1 = 37, GPU2 = 39 %
This is how all games are, at least on a single display. I don't know how your multiple displays are setup.
This is also logical. 2 GPUs working at half the rate of a single GPU to give the same FPS.
If you don't believe me, I would be happy to take screenshots :)
Please set to single dislplay and test for yourself :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Since you use the Witcher 3, we will use this one as an example;) But I am not sure I can show this on 1080p.
SLI will always Double (or try to) your FPS. This ofc, if the scaling is perfect and if you DON'T have a FPS lock or other bottleneck.
In your example above, SLI seems to work but by always maintaining the target of 90 FPS. And you can actually see SLI working by offloading half the work-load on the 2nd GPU.
It should do exactly the opposite. Keep the load (whatever you get on a Single GPU). The second GPU comes in with the same load and as a result you get 2x performance.
What you show there looks like a something is not working right there.. Almost looks like negative scaling or no scaling at all. That is not SLI, is just "split work". Something funky there...
Holly cow... you can't get 60 FPS with SLI on a single screen in Witcher 3 ???
That is a serious problem.. I can get to 60FPS in SLI (2x980TI) in 1080p constantly no problem....
(As a matter of fact I get around 40-45 FPS in 3D Surround). Something is definitely wrong there....
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Now, onto the specifics,
helifax mate, this entire thread is about a CPU bottleneck, and I am talking about a CPU bottlenecked scenario. You on the other hand seem to be talking about a GPU bottlenecked scenario, but I am unsure as your CPU and GPU % just don't add up, maybe because of your multi screen setup. :)
No offence, but just on the other thread the other day, I had to share my knowledge with people (including yourself) regarding physical and virtual cores. You know a world more than me about coding, but perhaps there are some things which I might be able to enlighten you with?
Remember that this is CPU/GPU scaling fundamentals 101, so everything we talk about in this post is purely in 2D (We will get to 3D later once we are all on the same page). Ok, let's begin...
Fact: Setting low resolution / graphics settings vs setting high resolution and high graphics settings have about the exact same load on the CPU. The only loading that changes is on the GPU.
[Preface: numbers below are ideal cases, and do not perfectly represent real life scenareos, but are close approximations]
For example,
Scenareo 1, CPU bottlenecking GPU and FPS.
Game = Some_Game_Name
Resolution = 1080p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 50%
FPS = 100FPS (CPU bottleneck)
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~25%
FPS = Still 100 fps (CPU bottleneck)
Scenareo 2, no CPU or GPU bottleneck.
Upping the resolution to 1440p
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 100FPS (no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)
If SLI, GPU usage on each card = ~50%
FPS = Still 100 fps (CPU bottleneck)
Scenareo 3, GPU bottlenecking CPU and FPS.
Upping the resolution to 4k
CPU usage = 40%
GPU usage = 100%
FPS = 50FPS (GPU bottleneck)
If SLI,
CPU usage = 80%
GPU usage on each card = 100%
FPS = 100 fps (no bottleneck, either in the CPU or the GPU)
1. In the 1080p scenario, the CPU is being maxed out by the game threads at 80% usage. This is the max that the CPU can be used by the game. We know this because the GPU is less than saturation (i.e. < 95% or so). Here, nomatter how powerful your graphics card, or how many cards you have in SLi, you will never have anything higher than 100 FPS because the CPU is holding the GPUs back. (Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will increase/decrease linearly with the CPU clock speed!)
2. The 1440p Scenario is where we have doubled the resolution. The CPU is being utelised at 80% max. Due to doubling the resolution, there is no extra strain on the CPU but there is a double strain on the GPU, so the GPU will go to 100%, but your FPS will still be 100FPS. Adding SLi here will drop the GPUs down to 50% each, but your FPS will still be the same because the CPU will then become the bottleneck.
3. Now look at what happens when you finally come to a GPU bottleneck (What you are talking about):
The 4k Scenario is where we have quadrupled the resolution. Because of this huge resolution, the GPU is the new bottleneck. The GPU can't supply FPS by number crunching fast enough so the CPU (remember there is no impact on the CPU when you increase resolution or graphics settings) has nothing to do half the time, so the CPU usage is very low, say 40%. Due to quadrupling the resolution, there is quadruple the strain on the GPU. Your single card will be at 100% but of course, only being able to produce 50 fps. (Side note: If you Overclock/underclock the CPU, the GPU usage as well as the FPS will NOT CHANGE, because the CPU is sitting idle half the time already!, However, the CPU USAGE will show a change in average usage because the game threads are being processed in more or less CPU time due to the overclock / underclock!)
NOW, if you SLi, your SLi will have both cards at 100%, and your CPU can finally stretch is muscles because there is no GPU bottleneck, so it too can work at its full capacity for the game (80%). This means that you get double your FPS, to 100fps.
This is basic knowledge about CPU/GPU performance and scaling. If you don't understand this, you will definitely not be able to understand what is happening in my tests in this thread.
This is very important to understand, as 3D Vision, for all intents and purposes, is an extremely similar performance impact as doubling the game resolution.
helifax, what you said in your post above is that you had 60% GPU usage (CPU was being bottlenecked). Then you enabled SLi and your FPS doubled, while your GPU usage on both cards was around 66%. Friend, I am very sorry but that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. You also don't give me any CPU usage results, but talk about loads on physical and virtual cores which doesn't matter in your tests - there is no way to differentiate between the two (I must not have explained about virtual cores to you very well the other day, I'm stupid, remember? ;-)). Like I said mate, you are a smart guy, and I think you know a great deal; but I think there are some fundamental missunderstandings when it comes to hardware. I'll learn from you, and I hope I can share my knowledge with you at the same time :)
What truly happens if your GPU is at 60% is that you are CPU bottlenecked. Enabling SLi, you are STILL cpu bottlecked, your FPS will stay exactly the same, but your GPU usage on each card would be significantly lower.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I'm out from here... No matter what I will say it will look like I'm picking on people. So, I will refrain.
This thread is now dead to me, as is your problem.
Good luck fixing it! Hope Nvidia listens (and lols at the same time).
PS: Also, I would appreciate if I don't get any PMs regarding this thread of anything related to it. Thank you!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Just for the fun of it.






Here is the data you wanted:
CPU clocked to 3.0GHz.
GPUs not even kicking the P2 state lol (as is not needed).
Resolution 1024x768.
(Ignore the memory readings. They will go "wild" if you enable/disable SLI without restarting MSI Afterburner)
Single GPU - 3D Vision Disabled
Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE
Single GPU - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active
SLI - 3D Vision Disabled
SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - NOT ACTIVE
SLI - 3D Vision Enabled(NVpanel) - Active
Will not even go in Surround as no one here gives a F about it, except me. (But it becomes clearer in Surround where the GPU will always be over-taxed).
Proves exactly what I was saying: there is no problem. Every game uses TIME to "advance the state". There are other synchronisation timers running. Your CPU will never be used 100% as it will exhaust it and will give you an OS Kernel Panic Anyway. (Games don't run in a "while (1)" loop you know;) Clearly none of you here have ever seen or worked with an RTOS.)
In any case you will say this is CPU bound more or less... But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever...
Perhaps you should enlighten me and tell me what I "should see", as I find the current behaviour correct.
In any case. Your problem is that you see sub-par FPS when 3D Vision is enabled (and stutter). I just showed you that the FPS impact should be around 5% (if you have room in the CPU/GPU for the extra operations). What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures.
Cheers!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
With double the current Intel single core performance, I think all (or most) games would be working perfectly. But current progress is too slow. I want to freeze myself. Wake me up in 20 years :).
CPU: Intel Core i7 7700K @ 4.9GHz
Motherboard: Gigabyte Aorus GA-Z270X-Gaming 5
RAM: GSKILL Ripjaws Z 16GB 3866MHz CL18
GPU: Gainward Phoenix 1080 GLH
Monitor: Asus PG278QR
Speakers: Logitech Z506
Donations account: masterotakusuko@gmail.com
Your single card tests are useless because the GPU is being saturated, even though I asked you about 4 times in various different posts to ensure that wasn't the case by going to places like central novigrad, so we'll have to disregard them and count on your SLi tests instead ;-)
Regardless, as I explained to you and you can clearly see from your own results, SLi vs Non SLi in a CPU constrained scenario does not double your FPS as you previously claimed. 173fps vs 200 FPS is what is seen, but even that is because the 173fps is due to the GPU being saturated at 99%, otherwise it would also have been 200 fps ಠ╭╮ಠ
Your results are as follows:
Game: helifax's Witcher 3 test in SLi
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
48% CPU usage
70% GPU usage
201 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
43% CPU usage
80% GPU usage
133 FPS
Summary:
2D Performance 100%
3D Performance (133fps / 201fps) x 100 = 66%
CPU usage drop in 3D Vision = [(2D 48% CPU usage) - (3D 43% CPU usage)] / 2D 48% CPU usage) x 100 =10% CPU usage drop caused by 3D Vision
100-66 = 33% performance drop due purely to this CPU bottleneck caused by 3D Vision.
"But it definitely shows there is no issue with CPU not being used or whatever"
Your own benchmarks show that 3D Vision caused a 10% drop in CPU usage mate. Are you arguing with your own results?
Also, Enabling 3D Vision does not half your FPS as you earlier claimed (200 FPS 3D Off vs 133FPS 3D On)
If the CPU wasn't performing 10% slower, your 3D FPS would be a lot higher. In fact, OC your CPU to 5GHz and take the same test. I will bet that your 133 FPS will be a lot higher. This is also why we know that it's a CPU bottleneck issue, because the FPS and GPU usage will scale up as you increase the CPU clock.
"Your CPU will never be used 100%"
No-one ever said it would. The CPU usage is dependent only on how efficiently it can be used by the number of threads a game can generate. For the 10th time, all we are trying to show is that the CPU is being used less in 3D Vision than in 2D, and now you have proven it yourself with your own results. I really don't know if you are trolling me, but perhaps it's best if you don't respond after all if you don't want to. I really don't want to waste my time explaining the fundamentals of CPU usage, core usage, Virtual core affinity, GPU scaling, GPU saturation or how SLi works for the umpteenth time.
"What you see there on Pascal, seems to be a Pascal Issue that is not present on other architectures."
As I have said before many times to you, EVERYONE has the exact same problem in GTA5, even at release when Pascal wasn't even announced. It's Especially prominent in heavily multi-threaded games such as GTA5, but the problem exists in most if not all games.
Check out the comments here:
https://helixmod.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/gta-v-dx11.html
And I figured it out here on my MAXWELL cards:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Just because you can't understand the problem doesn't automatically mean it does not exist mate :)
There is just no need to get hostile and laugh at me if nVidia doesn't respond. This fix would have benifited us all, including yourself. Indeed I expect that this is a deep routed problem within the driver, which nVidia will not have the designated resources to tackle. I doubt they will do a thing.
Best of luck to you mate. You have contributed so much to 3D Vision, and I thank you very much for that.
@masterotaku
Yes, unfortunately the IPC performance has only gone up ~5% per generation over the last 7 years. Intel even confirmed that the new KabyLake CPUs hitting the shelves in a few months won't even have better IPC than SkyLake. We desperately need faster CPUs but we are at a limit until new materials become viable to replace Silicon :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Should I cry or laugh....
Dude:
3D Vision Disabled 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled but non active 200 FPS
3D Vision enabled and active. 133 FPS.
200/2 = 100. GPU actually can push more and gives you 133.
If this is CPU bottleneck... STEREO IS MEANT TO RENDER THE SAME FRAME TWICE.
You either don't know how to count or....
There is NO CPU BOTTLENECK for the billion time!!! Also, You cannot run A GAME FASTER THAN REAL-TIME CLOCK... FFS...
Get your facts straight, cause the more you say the more you show the lack of understanding how things work...
AND BY THE WAY, I took that scene especially to show that neither the CPU or GPU was swamped with data but let both run "loose". You clearly don't know anything about CPU + GPU computing and how they work.
If what you say is true, it should be present here as well... sigh...
Also with this
Do you really want to get on my nerves ... You would better revise this phrase... I don't know... Wow... Stick with whatever you do mate... Don't come tell me how things work... You clearly NOT demonstrated anything... You JUST TALK about thing YOU THINK SHOULD WORK IN A SPECIFIC WAY...
I'm out of this thread.... And I can say from now, I will make sure I will discard anything you "find" from now on... (as will Nvidia.)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)