3D Vision support still lack luster, Andrew
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I've been eying 3D vision since the demos first started appearing. I was an Nvidia user from the original GeForce 256 all the way to the 8800GTX but I finally left for ATI after Nvidia's poor Showing in the Vista 64-bit driver camp during its launch which caused unending BSOD issues. I'd love to come back now that Win 7 is here and after seeing Avatar the other night at Imax in 3D, I was excited to check out how far Nvidia had progressed with its display support since launch. I can honestly say I'm less than ecstatic now. Other than a few new woefully undersized LCD PC monitors, its the same freaking list. Whats here are a pitiful showing of smallish PC monitors, a grouping of Mitsubishi DLP's which will need a 400$ lamp replacement in 9 months with how much I use a monitor, a 6000$ Laser TV (I don't need a second mortgage) and a bunch of projectors with the same issues as the DLP's, replacement lamps.

I've been using a 30" Dell for 2 years now, I can drop down in res to the 1080p region but there is no way in hell I'd go back to something like a 24 inch. I want something more cinematic, not less but what are my options here? All that you have are too small, too short lived, too insanely expensive or too impractical. Where are the mid ranged plasmas or LCD monitors in the 40, 50 and 60" ranges? I saw where you told that other guy a few days ago that you'd be fired if you shared your road-map on upcoming sets. Now to me, that reeks of either a lack of confidence that your company has any hard commitments from those companies or that you have nothing and don't want it made public, otherwise, why hide how bright the future of 3D Vision is from everyone?

I really want to join this camp but all the partners involved with Nvidia on this seem just as half-hearted in their support as Nvidia itself. I expected that a year after launch the supported set list would be huge but its barely grown at all and that just doesn't inspire any confidence. Please, give a guy a real reason to come back and indeed warrant the buy in I'll have to make to join 3d Vision.
I've been eying 3D vision since the demos first started appearing. I was an Nvidia user from the original GeForce 256 all the way to the 8800GTX but I finally left for ATI after Nvidia's poor Showing in the Vista 64-bit driver camp during its launch which caused unending BSOD issues. I'd love to come back now that Win 7 is here and after seeing Avatar the other night at Imax in 3D, I was excited to check out how far Nvidia had progressed with its display support since launch. I can honestly say I'm less than ecstatic now. Other than a few new woefully undersized LCD PC monitors, its the same freaking list. Whats here are a pitiful showing of smallish PC monitors, a grouping of Mitsubishi DLP's which will need a 400$ lamp replacement in 9 months with how much I use a monitor, a 6000$ Laser TV (I don't need a second mortgage) and a bunch of projectors with the same issues as the DLP's, replacement lamps.



I've been using a 30" Dell for 2 years now, I can drop down in res to the 1080p region but there is no way in hell I'd go back to something like a 24 inch. I want something more cinematic, not less but what are my options here? All that you have are too small, too short lived, too insanely expensive or too impractical. Where are the mid ranged plasmas or LCD monitors in the 40, 50 and 60" ranges? I saw where you told that other guy a few days ago that you'd be fired if you shared your road-map on upcoming sets. Now to me, that reeks of either a lack of confidence that your company has any hard commitments from those companies or that you have nothing and don't want it made public, otherwise, why hide how bright the future of 3D Vision is from everyone?



I really want to join this camp but all the partners involved with Nvidia on this seem just as half-hearted in their support as Nvidia itself. I expected that a year after launch the supported set list would be huge but its barely grown at all and that just doesn't inspire any confidence. Please, give a guy a real reason to come back and indeed warrant the buy in I'll have to make to join 3d Vision.

#1
Posted 12/20/2009 03:28 PM   
[quote name='DarkElfa' post='967893' date='Dec 20 2009, 10:28 AM']I've been using a 30" Dell for 2 years now, I can drop down in res to the 1080p region but there is no way in hell I'd go back to something like a 24 inch. I want something more cinematic, not less but what are my options here? All that you have are too small, too short lived, too insanely expensive or too impractical. Where are the mid ranged plasmas or LCD monitors in the 40, 50 and 60" ranges?[/quote]

Its not on the "officially supported" list but the Samsung PN50B450 (in the US) is a 720p Plasma that works with 3D Vision, if you're interested, but in general I agree support is lacking for 3D Vision. You can find it for around $700-$1000.
[quote name='DarkElfa' post='967893' date='Dec 20 2009, 10:28 AM']I've been using a 30" Dell for 2 years now, I can drop down in res to the 1080p region but there is no way in hell I'd go back to something like a 24 inch. I want something more cinematic, not less but what are my options here? All that you have are too small, too short lived, too insanely expensive or too impractical. Where are the mid ranged plasmas or LCD monitors in the 40, 50 and 60" ranges?



Its not on the "officially supported" list but the Samsung PN50B450 (in the US) is a 720p Plasma that works with 3D Vision, if you're interested, but in general I agree support is lacking for 3D Vision. You can find it for around $700-$1000.

#2
Posted 12/20/2009 07:07 PM   
While I don't have anything to be able to actually test this... I thought the biggest requirement for 3dvision was that the "monitor" you're using has a 120hz refresh? So shouldn't any of the HDTVs that are (claim to be maybe) 120hz work? I have a PC hooked up to my 40" LCD (60hz) and it detects fine and such, so I don't know why just a generic 120hz LCD wouldn't work... even if it's not "officially supported"
While I don't have anything to be able to actually test this... I thought the biggest requirement for 3dvision was that the "monitor" you're using has a 120hz refresh? So shouldn't any of the HDTVs that are (claim to be maybe) 120hz work? I have a PC hooked up to my 40" LCD (60hz) and it detects fine and such, so I don't know why just a generic 120hz LCD wouldn't work... even if it's not "officially supported"

#3
Posted 12/20/2009 07:17 PM   
[quote name='Tomec' post='967965' date='Dec 20 2009, 08:17 PM']While I don't have anything to be able to actually test this... I thought the biggest requirement for 3dvision was that the "monitor" you're using has a 120hz refresh? So shouldn't any of the HDTVs that are (claim to be maybe) 120hz work? I have a PC hooked up to my 40" LCD (60hz) and it detects fine and such, so I don't know why just a generic 120hz LCD wouldn't work... even if it's not "officially supported"[/quote]

The current HDTVs to not have a real 120Hz input, they get the signal at 60Hz and just calculate a picture in between. A HDTV must be claimed as 3D-ready to be able to display 3D.
The 3D vision system has the option "Generic DLP" for this displays, which actually also works with Samsungs 3D-ready plasmas.
The methode used is called checkerboard, because the signal is still feed in at 60Hz with even pixels for the left and odd pixels for the right view. The TV than makes 2 pictures of that by first taking the even and then the odd pixels, so the final output is 120Hz. The TVs offer a 3D sync out for synchronising the shutterglasses with the views, so both eyes get the corresponding pictures.
[quote name='Tomec' post='967965' date='Dec 20 2009, 08:17 PM']While I don't have anything to be able to actually test this... I thought the biggest requirement for 3dvision was that the "monitor" you're using has a 120hz refresh? So shouldn't any of the HDTVs that are (claim to be maybe) 120hz work? I have a PC hooked up to my 40" LCD (60hz) and it detects fine and such, so I don't know why just a generic 120hz LCD wouldn't work... even if it's not "officially supported"



The current HDTVs to not have a real 120Hz input, they get the signal at 60Hz and just calculate a picture in between. A HDTV must be claimed as 3D-ready to be able to display 3D.

The 3D vision system has the option "Generic DLP" for this displays, which actually also works with Samsungs 3D-ready plasmas.

The methode used is called checkerboard, because the signal is still feed in at 60Hz with even pixels for the left and odd pixels for the right view. The TV than makes 2 pictures of that by first taking the even and then the odd pixels, so the final output is 120Hz. The TVs offer a 3D sync out for synchronising the shutterglasses with the views, so both eyes get the corresponding pictures.

#4
Posted 12/20/2009 07:42 PM   
[quote name='Nobsi' post='967972' date='Dec 20 2009, 11:42 AM']The current HDTVs to not have a real 120Hz input, they get the signal at 60Hz and just calculate a picture in between. A HDTV must be claimed as 3D-ready to be able to display 3D.[/quote]

I kind of figured that would be the case... hence the claim to part... but was really hoping against that. Well, not too surprising considering I think early "120hz" monitors used to be the same, or would use 2 inputs, or both.
[quote name='Nobsi' post='967972' date='Dec 20 2009, 11:42 AM']The current HDTVs to not have a real 120Hz input, they get the signal at 60Hz and just calculate a picture in between. A HDTV must be claimed as 3D-ready to be able to display 3D.



I kind of figured that would be the case... hence the claim to part... but was really hoping against that. Well, not too surprising considering I think early "120hz" monitors used to be the same, or would use 2 inputs, or both.

#5
Posted 12/20/2009 07:55 PM   
Your problem is not Andrews problem.

Why don't you go locate a testing center and make up your own mind?
Your problem is not Andrews problem.



Why don't you go locate a testing center and make up your own mind?

#6
Posted 12/20/2009 10:54 PM   
I don't know what you're talking about. Game support is getting better and better. 3D blu-ray is coming next year. Plenty of new 3D displays coming next year. I suggest you wait until CES to see what's offered.
I don't know what you're talking about. Game support is getting better and better. 3D blu-ray is coming next year. Plenty of new 3D displays coming next year. I suggest you wait until CES to see what's offered.

#7
Posted 12/20/2009 11:04 PM   
Games aren't the issue here, its a lack of any truly great choice to watch them on. I've seen the thing myself f3likx other wise I'd never consider it but since Andrew works for Nvidia, the issue of customers opting not to purchase because of poor monitor choice is most definitely his problem. Nvidia seems to have every monitor choice listed here except the kind that people are actually purchasing, namely large LCD's. Doubleangetnt, I'm familiar with that TV but I'm no where near interested in a 720p TV. Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.
Games aren't the issue here, its a lack of any truly great choice to watch them on. I've seen the thing myself f3likx other wise I'd never consider it but since Andrew works for Nvidia, the issue of customers opting not to purchase because of poor monitor choice is most definitely his problem. Nvidia seems to have every monitor choice listed here except the kind that people are actually purchasing, namely large LCD's. Doubleangetnt, I'm familiar with that TV but I'm no where near interested in a 720p TV. Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.

#8
Posted 12/21/2009 12:35 AM   
[quote name='f3likx' post='968029' date='Dec 20 2009, 03:54 PM']Your problem is not Andrews problem.

Why don't you go locate a testing center and make up your own mind?[/quote]


Agreed I cant believe he is calling out Andrew on his personal decision. Put his name in the title and all for something he hasn't even bought yet...

People calling out Andrew have spent many hours of their time and money for the product and talk to Andrew from time to time... You just hopped the bandwagon and tried to call him for a purchase decision?

Really?
[quote name='f3likx' post='968029' date='Dec 20 2009, 03:54 PM']Your problem is not Andrews problem.



Why don't you go locate a testing center and make up your own mind?





Agreed I cant believe he is calling out Andrew on his personal decision. Put his name in the title and all for something he hasn't even bought yet...



People calling out Andrew have spent many hours of their time and money for the product and talk to Andrew from time to time... You just hopped the bandwagon and tried to call him for a purchase decision?



Really?

#9
Posted 12/21/2009 02:30 PM   
Its a shame that so many people want to blame nvidia , Andrew and others. Because they dont educate themselves and make an informed decision on there purchases of hardware.. Buyer always beware educate yourself first, not after.
Its a shame that so many people want to blame nvidia , Andrew and others. Because they dont educate themselves and make an informed decision on there purchases of hardware.. Buyer always beware educate yourself first, not after.

In Memory Of Chris Arthington "One Cool Cat"

#10
Posted 12/21/2009 02:35 PM   
[quote name='DarkElfa' post='968078' date='Dec 21 2009, 12:35 AM']Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.[/quote]

No thats down to Samsung, Panasonic and Sony to sort out....oh wait, they are! :rolleyes:

I agree display choice is quite limited but 120hz monitors still arent cheap to produce and it doesnt yet have the mainstream support to bring the price down/advance it further. With 3D Bluray now established and the big tv manufacturers coming up with their own display implementations its only a matter of time before your wish is granted.
[quote name='DarkElfa' post='968078' date='Dec 21 2009, 12:35 AM']Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.



No thats down to Samsung, Panasonic and Sony to sort out....oh wait, they are! :rolleyes:



I agree display choice is quite limited but 120hz monitors still arent cheap to produce and it doesnt yet have the mainstream support to bring the price down/advance it further. With 3D Bluray now established and the big tv manufacturers coming up with their own display implementations its only a matter of time before your wish is granted.

#11
Posted 12/21/2009 03:28 PM   
[quote name='doubleagent' post='967956' date='Dec 20 2009, 01:07 PM']Its not on the "officially supported" list but the Samsung PN50B450 (in the US) is a 720p Plasma that works with 3D Vision, if you're interested, but in general I agree support is lacking for 3D Vision. You can find it for around $700-$1000.[/quote]

DONT GO THE PN50B450 rout...
Sure, its 3d 'capable' ready, but its a POS.

I actually bought this TV last week, and returned it 3 days later..

1. Ist a bitch to get running (which may have been in part to a nvidia softaware bug, now fixed).

2. its not 720p 3d, but 1024 x 726

3. the 3d it gives off SUCKs. - i just got into all of this via the 2233 (10 days ago), and wanted a bigger screen. ATM wait till summer of 2010 for sony to release their 3d readys lcd's... -
[quote name='doubleagent' post='967956' date='Dec 20 2009, 01:07 PM']Its not on the "officially supported" list but the Samsung PN50B450 (in the US) is a 720p Plasma that works with 3D Vision, if you're interested, but in general I agree support is lacking for 3D Vision. You can find it for around $700-$1000.



DONT GO THE PN50B450 rout...

Sure, its 3d 'capable' ready, but its a POS.



I actually bought this TV last week, and returned it 3 days later..



1. Ist a bitch to get running (which may have been in part to a nvidia softaware bug, now fixed).



2. its not 720p 3d, but 1024 x 726



3. the 3d it gives off SUCKs. - i just got into all of this via the 2233 (10 days ago), and wanted a bigger screen. ATM wait till summer of 2010 for sony to release their 3d readys lcd's... -

#12
Posted 12/21/2009 03:38 PM   
[quote name='ExtremeGrandpa' post='968341' date='Dec 21 2009, 09:35 AM']Its a shame that so many people want to blame nvidia , Andrew and others. Because they dont educate themselves and make an informed decision on there purchases of hardware.. Buyer always beware educate yourself first, not after.[/quote]

I'm very educated on this topic, thank you. That's exactly why I'm bringing this up. I'm not "calling out" Andrew, I simply want to know if there is really going to be anything in the prime LCD market upcoming that will support this technology or will I have to go a different route or even give up altogether. Its very much Nvidia's responsibility to get more hardware choices on board when its their 3D they're toting. I ask Andrew by name because he's the only person from Nvidia who seems to respond around here. If you pronounce that you have the best 3D out there and then have a poor selection of monitor choices a year after launch, its hard to have much faith that this will pan out and become a stable option for future viewing. I'm ready to drop 3 grand or more in a few months on 3D tech and I'm trying to weigh all my options here. I just expected Nvidia to put forth more effort than they have since they do appear to have the best tech going ATM. If you want to call it anything, call it disappointment. TBH, I'm upset that if I want this option that the TV choices all have unwanted drawbacks right now which I already named in detail.

There's no need to get defensive about it in any case. I'm not looking to insult the man or the company but they made certain claims a while back that more choices would appear and yet few new ones have thus far. What I want is what nearly everyone shopping for a new TV is buying right now, a 1080p LCD in the 40" - 60" range. Its Nvidia's tech and therefor their job to get their supported manufacturers rolling on it. I'm not sure what it is you want me to further educate myself on here, the list of what is supported is clearly visibly on Nvidia's site and I've looked at each and every single one in detail and they're all either too small, have too short a lifespan or are way too expensive. I very much want to buy in on this, I really, desperately do but the monitor choice is the only hold out left. SO what I want from Andrew is what only he and Nvidia can give me, some faith that there are definitely better choices coming and soon so that I have a real reason to hold out.
[quote name='ExtremeGrandpa' post='968341' date='Dec 21 2009, 09:35 AM']Its a shame that so many people want to blame nvidia , Andrew and others. Because they dont educate themselves and make an informed decision on there purchases of hardware.. Buyer always beware educate yourself first, not after.



I'm very educated on this topic, thank you. That's exactly why I'm bringing this up. I'm not "calling out" Andrew, I simply want to know if there is really going to be anything in the prime LCD market upcoming that will support this technology or will I have to go a different route or even give up altogether. Its very much Nvidia's responsibility to get more hardware choices on board when its their 3D they're toting. I ask Andrew by name because he's the only person from Nvidia who seems to respond around here. If you pronounce that you have the best 3D out there and then have a poor selection of monitor choices a year after launch, its hard to have much faith that this will pan out and become a stable option for future viewing. I'm ready to drop 3 grand or more in a few months on 3D tech and I'm trying to weigh all my options here. I just expected Nvidia to put forth more effort than they have since they do appear to have the best tech going ATM. If you want to call it anything, call it disappointment. TBH, I'm upset that if I want this option that the TV choices all have unwanted drawbacks right now which I already named in detail.



There's no need to get defensive about it in any case. I'm not looking to insult the man or the company but they made certain claims a while back that more choices would appear and yet few new ones have thus far. What I want is what nearly everyone shopping for a new TV is buying right now, a 1080p LCD in the 40" - 60" range. Its Nvidia's tech and therefor their job to get their supported manufacturers rolling on it. I'm not sure what it is you want me to further educate myself on here, the list of what is supported is clearly visibly on Nvidia's site and I've looked at each and every single one in detail and they're all either too small, have too short a lifespan or are way too expensive. I very much want to buy in on this, I really, desperately do but the monitor choice is the only hold out left. SO what I want from Andrew is what only he and Nvidia can give me, some faith that there are definitely better choices coming and soon so that I have a real reason to hold out.

#13
Posted 12/22/2009 12:16 AM   
[quote name='AudibleDefect' post='968387' date='Dec 21 2009, 10:38 AM']DONT GO THE PN50B450 rout...
Sure, its 3d 'capable' ready, but its a POS.

I actually bought this TV last week, and returned it 3 days later..

1. Ist a bitch to get running (which may have been in part to a nvidia softaware bug, now fixed).

2. its not 720p 3d, but 1024 x 726

3. the 3d it gives off SUCKs. - i just got into all of this via the 2233 (10 days ago), and wanted a bigger screen. ATM wait till summer of 2010 for sony to release their 3d readys lcd's... -[/quote]


I own this TV.

I haven't taken the time to full configure it, it works great with 3D movies on nVidia's site, gaming requires a bit more tweaking.

The 50" version runs 3D at 1360x768, the 42" version runs 3D at 1024x768. I do not recommend the 42" version for 3D.

[quote]Doubleangetnt, I'm familiar with that TV but I'm no where near interested in a 720p TV. Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.[/quote]

You can tell the difference between 1360x768 and 1920x1080? I certainly can't. Besides, you would need to have some good hardware to run 3D games at 1080p, considering it basically halves your framerate.
[quote name='AudibleDefect' post='968387' date='Dec 21 2009, 10:38 AM']DONT GO THE PN50B450 rout...

Sure, its 3d 'capable' ready, but its a POS.



I actually bought this TV last week, and returned it 3 days later..



1. Ist a bitch to get running (which may have been in part to a nvidia softaware bug, now fixed).



2. its not 720p 3d, but 1024 x 726



3. the 3d it gives off SUCKs. - i just got into all of this via the 2233 (10 days ago), and wanted a bigger screen. ATM wait till summer of 2010 for sony to release their 3d readys lcd's... -





I own this TV.



I haven't taken the time to full configure it, it works great with 3D movies on nVidia's site, gaming requires a bit more tweaking.



The 50" version runs 3D at 1360x768, the 42" version runs 3D at 1024x768. I do not recommend the 42" version for 3D.



Doubleangetnt, I'm familiar with that TV but I'm no where near interested in a 720p TV. Nvidia needs to work harder on getting an 1080p LCD TV in the 40 to 60 inch range out for its base if they want this thing to take off.




You can tell the difference between 1360x768 and 1920x1080? I certainly can't. Besides, you would need to have some good hardware to run 3D games at 1080p, considering it basically halves your framerate.

#14
Posted 12/22/2009 12:22 AM   
Bottom line is Nvidia don't make TVs & monitors.

Yes, they make the 3D tech & they may have some pull with screen manufacturers as to what devices they should produce to get the most out of it. But no major corporation is going to sink a bunch of money & resources into products simply to support what is still a niche market. Nvidia can suggest, cajole & perhaps even demand that Samsung or anyone else produce X-size display with true 120Mhz refresh but if the company determines that it won't sell enough of them to make it profitable, it ain't gonna happen. Business 101.
Bottom line is Nvidia don't make TVs & monitors.



Yes, they make the 3D tech & they may have some pull with screen manufacturers as to what devices they should produce to get the most out of it. But no major corporation is going to sink a bunch of money & resources into products simply to support what is still a niche market. Nvidia can suggest, cajole & perhaps even demand that Samsung or anyone else produce X-size display with true 120Mhz refresh but if the company determines that it won't sell enough of them to make it profitable, it ain't gonna happen. Business 101.

#15
Posted 12/22/2009 12:36 AM   
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