4K Ultra HD (3840x2160) stereoscopic 3D gaming (videos)
4 / 6
[quote="HDGametest2"]720p to 1080p is no big step. 1080 to 2160 p is huge. Calculate pixels.[/quote]
I count pixels. 1080p is twice as many pixels as 720p. It's not twice as good. I have a 90" screen and two projectors, one 1080p and the other 720p. I think the 1080p projector looks about 20% better given the same high quality source. 2160p is four times as many pixels as 1080p. At best, I hope it can match the same 20% subjective improvement. Diminishing returns.
[quote="HDGametest2"]All 4k devices I was working with, and also many on the consumer marked are equipped with frame interpolation. Not as good as real 60 frames[/quote]
Indeed, and frame interpolation is rarely used with games because of the inherent input lag. How many gamers run their games at 30fps and let their displays interpolate to 60? It has nothing to do with 4k, frame interpolation is available to a whole lot of gamers, but it's generally not used for good reason.
I love frame interpolation for video by the way. I always use Smooth Video Player for video files. But you don't have to worry about input lag for video.
[quote="HDGametest2"]But I and many other prefer 4k. You will watch the marked kill 1080p, even at 30hz - soon as 4k goes down in price. [/quote]
All things being equal, sure. The problem is that with your setup, it's not all equal. You're sacrificing all the visual quality you can in order to reach a 4k number in the settings menu.
HDGametest2 said:720p to 1080p is no big step. 1080 to 2160 p is huge. Calculate pixels.
I count pixels. 1080p is twice as many pixels as 720p. It's not twice as good. I have a 90" screen and two projectors, one 1080p and the other 720p. I think the 1080p projector looks about 20% better given the same high quality source. 2160p is four times as many pixels as 1080p. At best, I hope it can match the same 20% subjective improvement. Diminishing returns.
HDGametest2 said:All 4k devices I was working with, and also many on the consumer marked are equipped with frame interpolation. Not as good as real 60 frames
Indeed, and frame interpolation is rarely used with games because of the inherent input lag. How many gamers run their games at 30fps and let their displays interpolate to 60? It has nothing to do with 4k, frame interpolation is available to a whole lot of gamers, but it's generally not used for good reason.
I love frame interpolation for video by the way. I always use Smooth Video Player for video files. But you don't have to worry about input lag for video.
HDGametest2 said:But I and many other prefer 4k. You will watch the marked kill 1080p, even at 30hz - soon as 4k goes down in price.
All things being equal, sure. The problem is that with your setup, it's not all equal. You're sacrificing all the visual quality you can in order to reach a 4k number in the settings menu.
My projector is 720P and readily accepts a 1080P input signal, that does not make it a 1080P projector.
It simply downsamples the 1080P resolution to 720P. But according to the OP I have a 1080P projector by his way of thinking.
Or if I input 3840x2160, I now have a 4K projector..woo hoo.
It only cost me $500 too, what a bargain for a 4K projector.
Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them. And then you would also be able, as you seem to be an advanced user, to use it in 4096x2306 at 60hz, 4085x2095 or 60hz or 3840x2160 at 60hz. Resolutions that were nerver achieved via Downsapling (exept 3840, but was it done at 60?)
Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them. And then you would also be able, as you seem to be an advanced user, to use it in 4096x2306 at 60hz, 4085x2095 or 60hz or 3840x2160 at 60hz. Resolutions that were nerver achieved via Downsapling (exept 3840, but was it done at 60?)
Well I don't know exactly what kit the OP has, but I think he's been treated in a harsh way.
Even if he's upscaling and interpolating, maybe he's only trying to give us a demonstration of what might be possible in the future.
There appears to be a language barrier there too, but it's a shame that people seem to have jumped at the chance to prove a newcomer wrong.
On a related note, from all the accounts I've read, 4K is a massive and very discernible leap up in fidelity from 1080p.
Well I don't know exactly what kit the OP has, but I think he's been treated in a harsh way.
Even if he's upscaling and interpolating, maybe he's only trying to give us a demonstration of what might be possible in the future.
There appears to be a language barrier there too, but it's a shame that people seem to have jumped at the chance to prove a newcomer wrong.
On a related note, from all the accounts I've read, 4K is a massive and very discernible leap up in fidelity from 1080p.
GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
[quote="rustyk"]Well I don't know exactly what kit the OP has, but I think he's been treated in a harsh way.[/quote]
Whatever....the guy is a charlatan
Watch his videos...he speaks English.
I started asking out how he was achieving it and what he was using. He's the one not offering up any evidence. He's backpeddled several times confronted with facts.
He IS NOT stereoscopic gaming in 4K using real resolutions.
Why should I simply stand by why he feeds the community lies?
rustyk said:Well I don't know exactly what kit the OP has, but I think he's been treated in a harsh way.
Whatever....the guy is a charlatan
Watch his videos...he speaks English.
I started asking out how he was achieving it and what he was using. He's the one not offering up any evidence. He's backpeddled several times confronted with facts.
He IS NOT stereoscopic gaming in 4K using real resolutions.
Why should I simply stand by why he feeds the community lies?
Here's his friends post over at AV Science
We use a recent Intel quad @4ghz plus a 760gtx and dedicated physx card. With most games this is ok, but Crisis 3 for sure needs more (Crisis Warhead certainly runs better). This project is young, so an uprgrade in hardware will follow soon. In recent setups I did go up to four way sli with older cards. So this is an option for us, but requires also a mainboard change. But SLI and probably three way SLI can be done faster.
But please also consider that Youtube donwgrades to 30fps, so if your upload material is inconsistend in frames but ok to play - Youtube will make it even more laggy as it decides what frames to use. So we have to get very good 60fps material to reach a good 30fps video experiance. Thats what we learnd so far...
[quote="HDGametest"]Hello,
and thanks for your feedbacks. I did some posts before in in other forums, but received only very low feedback (google: real single display 4k). I should have gone here early! So I am very happy to provide details, as long as I do not break my business contract. A friend of mine and I work for a broadcast company, and we are entitled to use the equipment in our private time - as long as we do not share company procedures or secrets.
CRTs I only use in my homecinema, and I did some tests with them how far they can go with 4k equipment. Not far, not if you use only one 200 pound beast.
For our 4k project we did some video to get in touch with the need of the PCs. As you can see, some of the first video do lag. But at the end of the week we should have a multi GPU (7xx series geforce) setup, and in the comppany we have access to a reccent multi "Quardro" systems (read again, read again read again after multi ). And sponsors are welcome...
On the first simple setups, we captured 4k at 30hz in an sbs format, generated by tridef on Nvidia 760 cards (and displayed by a Sony 4k projector via HDMI). I can not tell you what capturing solutions we use, but for normal usage basic systems like Blackmagic 4k or AJA Kona are good, but even they are out of reach for most budgets. And yes, our capturing solutions handle copmpresions 4k real time - thanks for your very qualified question. I am sorried that I can not tell you more, even if I woulld be allowed to, I am not 100 percent sure myself what these devices do.
After far more than a decade with Nvidia and also quite some time with their pro cards, I will focus on 3d by Nvidia. Let me say so much: We can capture simulanteusly eight 1080p steams at 60hz, or 4 2160p strams at 30hz, or two 2160p streams at 60 hz, or one......
And yes, 4k can now be done higher than 30hz. At home with motivation at 60hz (google: ATI 4k 60hz) (Nvidia Pixelclockpatcher plus the right monitors), and on the professional level up to 120hz.
So stay tuned for the next 3D 4k series.[/quote]
We use a recent Intel quad @4ghz plus a 760gtx and dedicated physx card. With most games this is ok, but Crisis 3 for sure needs more (Crisis Warhead certainly runs better). This project is young, so an uprgrade in hardware will follow soon. In recent setups I did go up to four way sli with older cards. So this is an option for us, but requires also a mainboard change. But SLI and probably three way SLI can be done faster.
But please also consider that Youtube donwgrades to 30fps, so if your upload material is inconsistend in frames but ok to play - Youtube will make it even more laggy as it decides what frames to use. So we have to get very good 60fps material to reach a good 30fps video experiance. Thats what we learnd so far...
HDGametest said:Hello,
and thanks for your feedbacks. I did some posts before in in other forums, but received only very low feedback (google: real single display 4k). I should have gone here early! So I am very happy to provide details, as long as I do not break my business contract. A friend of mine and I work for a broadcast company, and we are entitled to use the equipment in our private time - as long as we do not share company procedures or secrets.
CRTs I only use in my homecinema, and I did some tests with them how far they can go with 4k equipment. Not far, not if you use only one 200 pound beast.
For our 4k project we did some video to get in touch with the need of the PCs. As you can see, some of the first video do lag. But at the end of the week we should have a multi GPU (7xx series geforce) setup, and in the comppany we have access to a reccent multi "Quardro" systems (read again, read again read again after multi ). And sponsors are welcome...
On the first simple setups, we captured 4k at 30hz in an sbs format, generated by tridef on Nvidia 760 cards (and displayed by a Sony 4k projector via HDMI). I can not tell you what capturing solutions we use, but for normal usage basic systems like Blackmagic 4k or AJA Kona are good, but even they are out of reach for most budgets. And yes, our capturing solutions handle copmpresions 4k real time - thanks for your very qualified question. I am sorried that I can not tell you more, even if I woulld be allowed to, I am not 100 percent sure myself what these devices do.
After far more than a decade with Nvidia and also quite some time with their pro cards, I will focus on 3d by Nvidia. Let me say so much: We can capture simulanteusly eight 1080p steams at 60hz, or 4 2160p strams at 30hz, or two 2160p streams at 60 hz, or one......
And yes, 4k can now be done higher than 30hz. At home with motivation at 60hz (google: ATI 4k 60hz) (Nvidia Pixelclockpatcher plus the right monitors), and on the professional level up to 120hz.
So stay tuned for the next 3D 4k series.
I was very interested in finding out how he was doing/achieving this.
I wish it was possible using a single cable with only 3 TMDS pairs.
But due to the inherent technology used by the HDMI tards that be....it's not.
I just wish HDMI would go away, they are doing nothing but stagnating consumer display technology.
HDMI is like being restricted to Dial Up instead of being able to use Broadband.
Anyone that wants to learn more about HDMI watch the training videos at HDMI.org
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/installer_training.aspx
Be sure to watch ...HDMI Higher Speed...
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/videos_higherspeed.aspx
[quote="HDGametest2"]Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them.[/quote]
Granted, I've never seen a 4k display myself. However, I've read a ton on the subject from both average users and experts and the consensus seems to be that there's benefit (of course) but it's fairly limited. It's highly dependent on screen size and viewing distance.
I'm curious then, what's your screen size and viewing distance?
HDGametest2 said:Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them.
Granted, I've never seen a 4k display myself. However, I've read a ton on the subject from both average users and experts and the consensus seems to be that there's benefit (of course) but it's fairly limited. It's highly dependent on screen size and viewing distance.
I'm curious then, what's your screen size and viewing distance?
[quote="Cookybiscuit"][quote="Libertine"]I thought all current 4k tvs use passive 3D.
I saw the Sony 4K demo on a 55" and the interlaced 3D was a huge disappointment, the lines are very intrusive and degrade the image quality. My Samsung checkerboard offers a much, much finer pucture in some ways, certainly more pleasing to the eye, imo. I will say i didn't spend much time with the 3D though....[/quote]
Huh, you'd have thought 4K would be the way forward for passive 3D, smaller pixels making for a less obvious lines effect. [/quote]
Oh, it is for normal home TV viewing distances im sure. I just meant for gaming up close at 1 meter or less for the wider FOV, which is what I always do..
Libertine said:I thought all current 4k tvs use passive 3D.
I saw the Sony 4K demo on a 55" and the interlaced 3D was a huge disappointment, the lines are very intrusive and degrade the image quality. My Samsung checkerboard offers a much, much finer pucture in some ways, certainly more pleasing to the eye, imo. I will say i didn't spend much time with the 3D though....
Huh, you'd have thought 4K would be the way forward for passive 3D, smaller pixels making for a less obvious lines effect.
Oh, it is for normal home TV viewing distances im sure. I just meant for gaming up close at 1 meter or less for the wider FOV, which is what I always do..
[quote="HDGametest2"]Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them. And then you would also be able, as you seem to be an advanced user, to use it in 4096x2306 at 60hz, 4085x2095 or 60hz or 3840x2160 at 60hz. Resolutions that were nerver achieved via Downsapling (exept 3840, but was it done at 60?)[/quote]
4K displays until now against 1080p (aka FULL HD) are completely NOT worth the effort. IT is WORTH the effort if you push a native 4k image to it (but some of them don't accept it, instead they upsample a 1080p one) at least this one a year ago...Probably has changed...
I tested 4K TVs at the time most people weren't even imagining 4k(prototypes) ...
From my experience I can say 4k is very very nice IF the feed is 4K but there are restrictions to the maximum FPS it can display and so on...Currently 4k is still an infant....Way too overpriced for what it offers...as for 4k in 3D...never heard...and btw passive 3D 4k doesn't count as passive 1080p is not actually 1080p ( you lose half the H resolution)
Don't get me wrong I WOULD LOOOVE to see a FULL SBS 4k VIdeo (that would actually be 8k) at acceptable FPS (not 30fps)!!!
If you could provide a link with a native 4k FULL SBS movie I wouldn't mind taking a look at it:)
HDGametest2 said:Airion, you really should get a 4k display, or use one for a longer time bofore talking about them. And then you would also be able, as you seem to be an advanced user, to use it in 4096x2306 at 60hz, 4085x2095 or 60hz or 3840x2160 at 60hz. Resolutions that were nerver achieved via Downsapling (exept 3840, but was it done at 60?)
4K displays until now against 1080p (aka FULL HD) are completely NOT worth the effort. IT is WORTH the effort if you push a native 4k image to it (but some of them don't accept it, instead they upsample a 1080p one) at least this one a year ago...Probably has changed...
I tested 4K TVs at the time most people weren't even imagining 4k(prototypes) ...
From my experience I can say 4k is very very nice IF the feed is 4K but there are restrictions to the maximum FPS it can display and so on...Currently 4k is still an infant....Way too overpriced for what it offers...as for 4k in 3D...never heard...and btw passive 3D 4k doesn't count as passive 1080p is not actually 1080p ( you lose half the H resolution)
Don't get me wrong I WOULD LOOOVE to see a FULL SBS 4k VIdeo (that would actually be 8k) at acceptable FPS (not 30fps)!!!
If you could provide a link with a native 4k FULL SBS movie I wouldn't mind taking a look at it:)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="D-Man11"]Here's his friends post over at AV Science
In recent setups I did go up to four way sli with older cards. So this is an option for us, but requires also a mainboard change. But SLI and probably three way SLI can be done faster.
[/quote]
Tridef doesnt support SLI. So this is kind of already at the limit. 780 is literally the limit in hardware performance that can be used to test this.
D-Man11 said:Here's his friends post over at AV Science
In recent setups I did go up to four way sli with older cards. So this is an option for us, but requires also a mainboard change. But SLI and probably three way SLI can be done faster.
Tridef doesnt support SLI. So this is kind of already at the limit. 780 is literally the limit in hardware performance that can be used to test this.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
I saw a link posted in the Surround Vision sub thread. The linked article show just what it takes to push 3 Display Eyefinity at 4K 60Hz.
AMD supplied a hastily written "special" driver to support the endeavor.
It's a good read and shows how much horsepower is required as well as the how the amount of "SIX" Displayport input connections are needed.
http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/extremewindows/archive/2013/07/25/pushing-the-12k-pc-gaming-boundary-at-1-5-billion-pixels-per-second.aspx
article link provided by NLPsajeeth
Here is something interesting. Going crazy with K - 12K in this case.
12K gaming rig renders 1.5 billion pixels per second for just $17,000
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/12k_gaming_rig_renders_1_5_billion_pixels_per_second_for_just_17000.html
source: Guru3D
With 4K i understand the greater field of view and that is what i am looking forward to - but there is one thing which is missing. With this ressolution (more pixels on the screen) i thought AA wotnt be necessery. Look closer at one of the screenshots. I think i got better with my screen.
It might be more seen because of 32 inch but my hopes were higher.
With 4K i understand the greater field of view and that is what i am looking forward to - but there is one thing which is missing. With this ressolution (more pixels on the screen) i thought AA wotnt be necessery. Look closer at one of the screenshots. I think i got better with my screen.
It might be more seen because of 32 inch but my hopes were higher.
I count pixels. 1080p is twice as many pixels as 720p. It's not twice as good. I have a 90" screen and two projectors, one 1080p and the other 720p. I think the 1080p projector looks about 20% better given the same high quality source. 2160p is four times as many pixels as 1080p. At best, I hope it can match the same 20% subjective improvement. Diminishing returns.
Indeed, and frame interpolation is rarely used with games because of the inherent input lag. How many gamers run their games at 30fps and let their displays interpolate to 60? It has nothing to do with 4k, frame interpolation is available to a whole lot of gamers, but it's generally not used for good reason.
I love frame interpolation for video by the way. I always use Smooth Video Player for video files. But you don't have to worry about input lag for video.
All things being equal, sure. The problem is that with your setup, it's not all equal. You're sacrificing all the visual quality you can in order to reach a 4k number in the settings menu.
It simply downsamples the 1080P resolution to 720P. But according to the OP I have a 1080P projector by his way of thinking.
Or if I input 3840x2160, I now have a 4K projector..woo hoo.
It only cost me $500 too, what a bargain for a 4K projector.
Even if he's upscaling and interpolating, maybe he's only trying to give us a demonstration of what might be possible in the future.
There appears to be a language barrier there too, but it's a shame that people seem to have jumped at the chance to prove a newcomer wrong.
On a related note, from all the accounts I've read, 4K is a massive and very discernible leap up in fidelity from 1080p.
GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
Whatever....the guy is a charlatan
Watch his videos...he speaks English.
I started asking out how he was achieving it and what he was using. He's the one not offering up any evidence. He's backpeddled several times confronted with facts.
He IS NOT stereoscopic gaming in 4K using real resolutions.
Why should I simply stand by why he feeds the community lies?
We use a recent Intel quad @4ghz plus a 760gtx and dedicated physx card. With most games this is ok, but Crisis 3 for sure needs more (Crisis Warhead certainly runs better). This project is young, so an uprgrade in hardware will follow soon. In recent setups I did go up to four way sli with older cards. So this is an option for us, but requires also a mainboard change. But SLI and probably three way SLI can be done faster.
But please also consider that Youtube donwgrades to 30fps, so if your upload material is inconsistend in frames but ok to play - Youtube will make it even more laggy as it decides what frames to use. So we have to get very good 60fps material to reach a good 30fps video experiance. Thats what we learnd so far...
I wish it was possible using a single cable with only 3 TMDS pairs.
But due to the inherent technology used by the HDMI tards that be....it's not.
I just wish HDMI would go away, they are doing nothing but stagnating consumer display technology.
HDMI is like being restricted to Dial Up instead of being able to use Broadband.
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/installer_training.aspx
Be sure to watch ...HDMI Higher Speed...
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/videos_higherspeed.aspx
Granted, I've never seen a 4k display myself. However, I've read a ton on the subject from both average users and experts and the consensus seems to be that there's benefit (of course) but it's fairly limited. It's highly dependent on screen size and viewing distance.
I'm curious then, what's your screen size and viewing distance?
Oh, it is for normal home TV viewing distances im sure. I just meant for gaming up close at 1 meter or less for the wider FOV, which is what I always do..
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
4K displays until now against 1080p (aka FULL HD) are completely NOT worth the effort. IT is WORTH the effort if you push a native 4k image to it (but some of them don't accept it, instead they upsample a 1080p one) at least this one a year ago...Probably has changed...
I tested 4K TVs at the time most people weren't even imagining 4k(prototypes) ...
From my experience I can say 4k is very very nice IF the feed is 4K but there are restrictions to the maximum FPS it can display and so on...Currently 4k is still an infant....Way too overpriced for what it offers...as for 4k in 3D...never heard...and btw passive 3D 4k doesn't count as passive 1080p is not actually 1080p ( you lose half the H resolution)
Don't get me wrong I WOULD LOOOVE to see a FULL SBS 4k VIdeo (that would actually be 8k) at acceptable FPS (not 30fps)!!!
If you could provide a link with a native 4k FULL SBS movie I wouldn't mind taking a look at it:)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Tridef doesnt support SLI. So this is kind of already at the limit. 780 is literally the limit in hardware performance that can be used to test this.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
AMD supplied a hastily written "special" driver to support the endeavor.
It's a good read and shows how much horsepower is required as well as the how the amount of "SIX" Displayport input connections are needed.
http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/extremewindows/archive/2013/07/25/pushing-the-12k-pc-gaming-boundary-at-1-5-billion-pixels-per-second.aspx
article link provided by NLPsajeeth
12K gaming rig renders 1.5 billion pixels per second for just $17,000
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/12k_gaming_rig_renders_1_5_billion_pixels_per_second_for_just_17000.html
source: Guru3D
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198014296177/
It might be more seen because of 32 inch but my hopes were higher.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198014296177/