3D Vision + SLI + VSync = broken?
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Hi guys I've been having a rather strange problem with 3D vision since I upgraded to SLI. The problem is that whenever I enable 3D Vision in certain games (Tomb Raider, Max Payne 3 and a few others), my FPS drops to 40. I know it's not performance related, because it does this at the main menu when both cards are only at 30% usage. If I disable VSync, the problem goes away, but I'm left with tearing, even if I limit the FPS to 60 using NVidia Inspector. It's the same with many of the games I try. It drops to exactly 40 FPS. If I leave 3D mode enabled in the NVidia control panel, but disable 3D in-game (ctrl-t), then the FPS hit 60, but it seems to flicker between 59 and 60 really fast. Is it possible that the 2 video cards are running different refresh rates maybe? One is at 60 and one is at 59 (without triple buffering, this would cause vsync to drop the FPS to 30)? I'm on Windows 8.1, which I've read has some issues with 60hz refresh rate and sometimes drops the refresh to 59, but I've created custom resolutions with modified refresh rates and still get the same thing. If anyone could help, I'd really appreciate it. I've been looking around for quite a while, but haven't found anything that can help. Thanks!
Hi guys

I've been having a rather strange problem with 3D vision since I upgraded to SLI. The problem is that whenever I enable 3D Vision in certain games (Tomb Raider, Max Payne 3 and a few others), my FPS drops to 40. I know it's not performance related, because it does this at the main menu when both cards are only at 30% usage.

If I disable VSync, the problem goes away, but I'm left with tearing, even if I limit the FPS to 60 using NVidia Inspector.

It's the same with many of the games I try. It drops to exactly 40 FPS. If I leave 3D mode enabled in the NVidia control panel, but disable 3D in-game (ctrl-t), then the FPS hit 60, but it seems to flicker between 59 and 60 really fast. Is it possible that the 2 video cards are running different refresh rates maybe? One is at 60 and one is at 59 (without triple buffering, this would cause vsync to drop the FPS to 30)?

I'm on Windows 8.1, which I've read has some issues with 60hz refresh rate and sometimes drops the refresh to 59, but I've created custom resolutions with modified refresh rates and still get the same thing.

If anyone could help, I'd really appreciate it. I've been looking around for quite a while, but haven't found anything that can help.

Thanks!

#1
Posted 11/30/2013 03:02 AM   
Thats what Vsync does. Since it syncs the frames to the monitor, once it dips below 60FPS, the next number that goes into 120 (your refresh in 3D) is 40, so it goes to 40FPS. Same reason why Vsync on a 60Hz monitor dips to 30FPS.
Thats what Vsync does. Since it syncs the frames to the monitor, once it dips below 60FPS, the next number that goes into 120 (your refresh in 3D) is 40, so it goes to 40FPS. Same reason why Vsync on a 60Hz monitor dips to 30FPS.

#2
Posted 11/30/2013 03:39 AM   
[quote="Cookybiscuit"]Thats what Vsync does. Since it syncs the frames to the monitor, once it dips below 60FPS, the next number that goes into 120 (your refresh in 3D) is 40, so it goes to 40FPS. Same reason why Vsync on a 60Hz monitor dips to 30FPS.[/quote] Hi Thanks for the response. I understand how vsync works, the problem I'm having is that the frames shouldn't be dipping below 60 at all, especially with GPU usage for both cards at 30% and CPU usage similarly low. It seems as though one of the cards is syncing to 59hz instead of 60, which is causing the drop. It's definitely not performance related, as my machine is practically idling on the game menu. EDIT: I also force triple buffering with D3DOverrider to try and eliminate the 60-30 lock.
Cookybiscuit said:Thats what Vsync does. Since it syncs the frames to the monitor, once it dips below 60FPS, the next number that goes into 120 (your refresh in 3D) is 40, so it goes to 40FPS. Same reason why Vsync on a 60Hz monitor dips to 30FPS.


Hi

Thanks for the response. I understand how vsync works, the problem I'm having is that the frames shouldn't be dipping below 60 at all, especially with GPU usage for both cards at 30% and CPU usage similarly low. It seems as though one of the cards is syncing to 59hz instead of 60, which is causing the drop. It's definitely not performance related, as my machine is practically idling on the game menu.

EDIT: I also force triple buffering with D3DOverrider to try and eliminate the 60-30 lock.

#3
Posted 11/30/2013 03:52 AM   
Are the two cards identical?
Are the two cards identical?

#4
Posted 11/30/2013 09:26 AM   
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]Are the two cards identical?[/quote] Unfortunately not. They're both GTX 770's with the same amount of RAM though, and I'm using MSI Afterburner to match the clock and memory speeds, as the 1 card is factory overclocked a little more than the other. From all of the testing I've been doing, this is what I've come up with so far: Triple buffering doesn't work with 2-card SLI in AFR or AFR2 mode, so if the frames drop below 60, they go all the way down to 30. It does, however, work in SFR mode. I've tested this with Tomb Raider and get all the frames between 30 and 60. However, when I enable 3D Vision with the hotkey, it seems like triple buffering gets disabled and the frames lock down to 30 or 40, even though both cards are practically idling. Everything works fine if I disable vsync, but the tearing is unacceptable to me. Thanks for the responses guys. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Pirateguybrush said:Are the two cards identical?


Unfortunately not. They're both GTX 770's with the same amount of RAM though, and I'm using MSI Afterburner to match the clock and memory speeds, as the 1 card is factory overclocked a little more than the other.

From all of the testing I've been doing, this is what I've come up with so far:

Triple buffering doesn't work with 2-card SLI in AFR or AFR2 mode, so if the frames drop below 60, they go all the way down to 30. It does, however, work in SFR mode. I've tested this with Tomb Raider and get all the frames between 30 and 60. However, when I enable 3D Vision with the hotkey, it seems like triple buffering gets disabled and the frames lock down to 30 or 40, even though both cards are practically idling.

Everything works fine if I disable vsync, but the tearing is unacceptable to me.

Thanks for the responses guys. Any help is greatly appreciated.

#5
Posted 11/30/2013 02:10 PM   
This is really wierd. I just got 2 770s and am running them with different clock speeds (one is OCd) and am not seeing a problem. I am on Win7 64 though. I also thought that triple buffering was only an OpenGL thing? Might be worth asking on the SLI forum, because even though this is a '3D vision' problem, its rooted in SLI so someone might have additional insights.
This is really wierd. I just got 2 770s and am running them with different clock speeds (one is OCd) and am not seeing a problem. I am on Win7 64 though. I also thought that triple buffering was only an OpenGL thing? Might be worth asking on the SLI forum, because even though this is a '3D vision' problem, its rooted in SLI so someone might have additional insights.

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#6
Posted 11/30/2013 02:24 PM   
Last I checked the Triple buffering not working is broken in the latest drivers.. Triple buffering IS NOT OpenGL ONLY. The technique is done in any rendering environment( even software rendering if you want) Technically YOU SHOUDN'T FORCE V-SYNC on since 3D VIsion should Automatically do that. I also noticed a few wrong behaviors between 3D Vision and 3D Surround (it tends to be more buggy on single screen when it comes to triple buggering and vsync) I would try some older drivers around 320.xx and see if that helps;))
Last I checked the Triple buffering not working is broken in the latest drivers..
Triple buffering IS NOT OpenGL ONLY. The technique is done in any rendering environment( even software rendering if you want)

Technically YOU SHOUDN'T FORCE V-SYNC on since 3D VIsion should Automatically do that. I also noticed a few wrong behaviors between 3D Vision and 3D Surround (it tends to be more buggy on single screen when it comes to triple buggering and vsync)
I would try some older drivers around 320.xx and see if that helps;))

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#7
Posted 11/30/2013 07:24 PM   
Hi guys Thanks for the responses. After all my own tests, it appears that the problem is 3D Vision related. With normal SLI and no 3D Vision, everything is perfect. Helifax, thanks for the suggestion. I'll download an older driver and see what happens. Hopefully it is just a driver issue, in which case I can stop wasting days of my life trying to fix this! Thanks again. EDIT: I switched to driver version 320.49 but had the same problem. I've disabled SLI and get frame locked at 30 when I enable 3D Vision. My conclusion is that when 3D Vision is enabled, triple buffering is disabled. This is the same for both SLI and single-card configurations. I've tried D3DOverrider, and even though it's registering (with the sound) that it's working, it isn't. It's not all games, though. Guild Wars 2 runs amazingly well in 3D, especially with SLI. No issues with triple buffering. Tomb Raider and Max Payne 3, however, get capped at 30. Tomb Raider even has an option for triple buffering under its vsync option, but it does nothing when 3D is enabled.
Hi guys

Thanks for the responses. After all my own tests, it appears that the problem is 3D Vision related. With normal SLI and no 3D Vision, everything is perfect.

Helifax, thanks for the suggestion. I'll download an older driver and see what happens. Hopefully it is just a driver issue, in which case I can stop wasting days of my life trying to fix this!

Thanks again.

EDIT: I switched to driver version 320.49 but had the same problem. I've disabled SLI and get frame locked at 30 when I enable 3D Vision. My conclusion is that when 3D Vision is enabled, triple buffering is disabled. This is the same for both SLI and single-card configurations. I've tried D3DOverrider, and even though it's registering (with the sound) that it's working, it isn't.

It's not all games, though. Guild Wars 2 runs amazingly well in 3D, especially with SLI. No issues with triple buffering. Tomb Raider and Max Payne 3, however, get capped at 30. Tomb Raider even has an option for triple buffering under its vsync option, but it does nothing when 3D is enabled.

#8
Posted 12/01/2013 02:10 AM   
For most games I have the adaptive vsync turned on as a global setting in NCP and don't never use the in game setting (if there is one). I'm suspecting that something else is going on as SLI770's ought to eat TR2013 for lunch and not require triple buffering.
For most games I have the adaptive vsync turned on as a global setting in NCP and don't never use the in game setting (if there is one).

I'm suspecting that something else is going on as SLI770's ought to eat TR2013 for lunch and not require triple buffering.

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#9
Posted 12/01/2013 06:28 AM   
[quote="mbloof"]For most games I have the adaptive vsync turned on as a global setting in NCP and don't never use the in game setting (if there is one). I'm suspecting that something else is going on as SLI770's ought to eat TR2013 for lunch and not require triple buffering.[/quote] Hi there This is exactly what I've been thinking. There's nothing happening on the game menu that should be dropping the frames to below 60, so this really shouldn't be an issue. I've tried adaptive vsync, but the overall experience is very jerky and slow. Edit: The same with Max Payne 3. With Max Payne, I can supersample and crank everything max and still be way above 60 FPS, but the minute I enable 3D Vision, my frames get locked to vsync, even though there's nothing stressing the cards.
mbloof said:For most games I have the adaptive vsync turned on as a global setting in NCP and don't never use the in game setting (if there is one).

I'm suspecting that something else is going on as SLI770's ought to eat TR2013 for lunch and not require triple buffering.


Hi there

This is exactly what I've been thinking. There's nothing happening on the game menu that should be dropping the frames to below 60, so this really shouldn't be an issue.

I've tried adaptive vsync, but the overall experience is very jerky and slow.

Edit: The same with Max Payne 3. With Max Payne, I can supersample and crank everything max and still be way above 60 FPS, but the minute I enable 3D Vision, my frames get locked to vsync, even though there's nothing stressing the cards.

#10
Posted 12/01/2013 11:49 AM   
How are you measuring FPS? Also, what is your hardware configuration? It seems like it might be a bottleneck someplace else. Lastly, did you install the SLI bridge? I think it will still work, but be slow with no bridge. Also, when you disable vsync and are in 2D mode, I would expect the FPS to skyrocket to something like 200 fps, not cap at 60.
How are you measuring FPS?

Also, what is your hardware configuration? It seems like it might be a bottleneck someplace else.

Lastly, did you install the SLI bridge? I think it will still work, but be slow with no bridge.


Also, when you disable vsync and are in 2D mode, I would expect the FPS to skyrocket to something like 200 fps, not cap at 60.

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#11
Posted 12/01/2013 12:27 PM   
[quote="bo3b"]How are you measuring FPS? Also, what is your hardware configuration? It seems like it might be a bottleneck someplace else. Lastly, did you install the SLI bridge? I think it will still work, but be slow with no bridge.[/quote] Hi bo3b I'm using FRAPS to measure the FPS, and I'm using MSI Afterburner to monitor the video card usage and ram, as well as the CPU usage. I'm overclocking both video cards (although I have tried it with both of them on stock settings) and I'm overclocking my i5 2500k to 4.5Ghz. I doubt very much that there's a bottleneck anywhere, since I can really run most games completely maxed out without really breaking a sweat. I also have 8 gigs of ram. I'm also running it all on a 50 inch LED 3DTV. I am using the Acer HR274H EDID override driver for the TV. My method of 3D is Line Interlaced, which I also use on Tridef 3D without any issues. I want to use 3D Vision because it can utilize SLI, whereas Tridef can not.
bo3b said:How are you measuring FPS?

Also, what is your hardware configuration? It seems like it might be a bottleneck someplace else.

Lastly, did you install the SLI bridge? I think it will still work, but be slow with no bridge.


Hi bo3b

I'm using FRAPS to measure the FPS, and I'm using MSI Afterburner to monitor the video card usage and ram, as well as the CPU usage.

I'm overclocking both video cards (although I have tried it with both of them on stock settings) and I'm overclocking my i5 2500k to 4.5Ghz. I doubt very much that there's a bottleneck anywhere, since I can really run most games completely maxed out without really breaking a sweat. I also have 8 gigs of ram.

I'm also running it all on a 50 inch LED 3DTV. I am using the Acer HR274H EDID override driver for the TV. My method of 3D is Line Interlaced, which I also use on Tridef 3D without any issues.

I want to use 3D Vision because it can utilize SLI, whereas Tridef can not.

#12
Posted 12/01/2013 12:52 PM   
Forgot to mention: Yes, the SLI bridge is installed and SLI is definitely working properly. Without vsync or 3D, the frames shoot way up. On the menu screen for Tomb Raider, I get 170FPS without vsync (forced off in the control panel). I just ran Tomb Raider again without vsync in 2D, but then enabled 3D, and vsync didn't turn on, meaning I'm running the game in 3D without vsync at 90 FPS on the menu and 160FPS on the particular level I'm on in the game. VSync off: [url]http://www.uploadit.org/f/5a96f44e5ee2004d84fe19140e0beb8c.jpg[/url] VSync on: [url]http://www.uploadit.org/f/84f7e628e5d15e8ae2a4542e73d7c4bb.jpg[/url]
Forgot to mention: Yes, the SLI bridge is installed and SLI is definitely working properly. Without vsync or 3D, the frames shoot way up. On the menu screen for Tomb Raider, I get 170FPS without vsync (forced off in the control panel).

I just ran Tomb Raider again without vsync in 2D, but then enabled 3D, and vsync didn't turn on, meaning I'm running the game in 3D without vsync at 90 FPS on the menu and 160FPS on the particular level I'm on in the game.

VSync off: http://www.uploadit.org/f/5a96f44e5ee2004d84fe19140e0beb8c.jpg
VSync on: http://www.uploadit.org/f/84f7e628e5d15e8ae2a4542e73d7c4bb.jpg

#13
Posted 12/01/2013 12:55 PM   
I wonder if it has something to do with the 3DTV, or the cable type it uses? I don't get your problem on my monitor. If my fps dips below 60, it does it by small and irregular increments, rather than flatlining straight to 40fps or 30fps. Some thoughts - they might help or not: Make sure you only use vsync in the control panel or in the game (experiment with both), but don't turn it on in both at the same time. When I've done that in the past is pretty much the only time I've had your sort of problem. I'm with mbloof - adaptive vsync in control panel (and off in games) gives me satisfactory results for most games: almost zero tearing, minimal lag, minimal fps interference. Do you have "maximum prerendered frames" in control panel set to 1? They say that's the best setting for 3dvision I've always found vsync to be an extremely finicky beast. Sometimes it causes lag, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work (ie. still causes tearing), even when it's on. Sometimes forcing in the control panel gets better results than in the game, or vice versa. In Crysis, I used to have to turn on vsync, then turn it off, then turn it on again...doing so would magically increase my fps by about 10-20fps. It's as if it was doing vsync twice or something until I did that. Perhaps try something similar - while in game, turn vsync on and off a few times and see if that 'resets' something. have you tried a clean reinstall of the nvidia driver? I'll tell you one thing: as soon as g-sync screens become available, I'm getting one. All this faffing around with vync is too annoying.
I wonder if it has something to do with the 3DTV, or the cable type it uses? I don't get your problem on my monitor. If my fps dips below 60, it does it by small and irregular increments, rather than flatlining straight to 40fps or 30fps.

Some thoughts - they might help or not:

Make sure you only use vsync in the control panel or in the game (experiment with both), but don't turn it on in both at the same time. When I've done that in the past is pretty much the only time I've had your sort of problem.

I'm with mbloof - adaptive vsync in control panel (and off in games) gives me satisfactory results for most games: almost zero tearing, minimal lag, minimal fps interference.

Do you have "maximum prerendered frames" in control panel set to 1? They say that's the best setting for 3dvision

I've always found vsync to be an extremely finicky beast. Sometimes it causes lag, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't work (ie. still causes tearing), even when it's on. Sometimes forcing in the control panel gets better results than in the game, or vice versa.

In Crysis, I used to have to turn on vsync, then turn it off, then turn it on again...doing so would magically increase my fps by about 10-20fps. It's as if it was doing vsync twice or something until I did that. Perhaps try something similar - while in game, turn vsync on and off a few times and see if that 'resets' something.

have you tried a clean reinstall of the nvidia driver?


I'll tell you one thing: as soon as g-sync screens become available, I'm getting one. All this faffing around with vync is too annoying.

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#14
Posted 12/01/2013 02:19 PM   
Hi Volnaiskra [quote="Volnaiskra"]I wonder if it has something to do with the 3DTV, or the cable type it uses? I don't get your problem on my monitor. If my fps dips below 60, it does it by small and irregular increments, rather than flatlining straight to 40fps or 30fps.[/quote] It could be, although I'm using a standard HDMI cable. I thought it may have something to do with the EDID override driver, but I can't be sure. [quote] Make sure you only use vsync in the control panel or in the game (experiment with both), but don't turn it on in both at the same time. When I've done that in the past is pretty much the only time I've had your sort of problem. [/quote] Yup, I figured the best option would be to enable it using the NVidia control panel and disable it in-game. [quote] I'm with mbloof - adaptive vsync in control panel (and off in games) gives me satisfactory results for most games: almost zero tearing, minimal lag, minimal fps interference. [/quote] If I use adaptive vsync in Max Payne, the game is jerky. Looking at FRAPS, it seems the frames are all over the place between 50 and 60. This number changes with every frame, meaning it's so fast that the numbers just appear as a blur. [quote] Do you have "maximum prerendered frames" in control panel set to 1? They say that's the best setting for 3dvision [/quote] Now this I didn't know. I changed this setting and enabled adaptive vsync with Tomb Raider and it's smooth as silk with no tearing in sight, so thanks a lot for this! Max Payne is a different story, though, but I'm going to keep on messing around with it. To me it feels like the 2 cards are just not in proper synchronization as far as vsync is concerned. It's just a feeling, though, no way to actually prove it. [quote] have you tried a clean reinstall of the nvidia driver? [/quote] Yes, I even tried an older driver, and chose a clean install each time.
Hi Volnaiskra

Volnaiskra said:I wonder if it has something to do with the 3DTV, or the cable type it uses? I don't get your problem on my monitor. If my fps dips below 60, it does it by small and irregular increments, rather than flatlining straight to 40fps or 30fps.

It could be, although I'm using a standard HDMI cable. I thought it may have something to do with the EDID override driver, but I can't be sure.


Make sure you only use vsync in the control panel or in the game (experiment with both), but don't turn it on in both at the same time. When I've done that in the past is pretty much the only time I've had your sort of problem.

Yup, I figured the best option would be to enable it using the NVidia control panel and disable it in-game.


I'm with mbloof - adaptive vsync in control panel (and off in games) gives me satisfactory results for most games: almost zero tearing, minimal lag, minimal fps interference.

If I use adaptive vsync in Max Payne, the game is jerky. Looking at FRAPS, it seems the frames are all over the place between 50 and 60. This number changes with every frame, meaning it's so fast that the numbers just appear as a blur.


Do you have "maximum prerendered frames" in control panel set to 1? They say that's the best setting for 3dvision

Now this I didn't know. I changed this setting and enabled adaptive vsync with Tomb Raider and it's smooth as silk with no tearing in sight, so thanks a lot for this! Max Payne is a different story, though, but I'm going to keep on messing around with it. To me it feels like the 2 cards are just not in proper synchronization as far as vsync is concerned. It's just a feeling, though, no way to actually prove it.


have you tried a clean reinstall of the nvidia driver?

Yes, I even tried an older driver, and chose a clean install each time.

#15
Posted 12/01/2013 03:56 PM   
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