Nvidia missed this? (rift mmo) Rift listed as poor for 3-d
Hello all am a bit of a lurker on the boards and I think I have only posted once in the last 3 years.

I have been a 3-d enthusiast since the days when it was marketed by third party companies but still using nvidias separate stereo drivers(which always lagged behind back then!) and we used good old CRT's for 3-d monitors!

But enough of that to the point: Rift planes of telara is listed as poor compatibility, yet from what I have found out it is running on a version of the fallout 3 engine... which looks damn good in 3-d.

So why doesn't rift render more than just the UI in 3-d? apparently nvidia is identifying it as an older game called "the Rift" so after looking around some more, this is what I have found:

You could try taking away permissions to write and delete that file from system and all users, then it can't possibly overwrite it. Where is that resource.dat file btw? Or do you mean the nvstres.dll file?

EDIT: With the current rift beta client, when you have Fullscreen FX disabled only the UI gets seperation, this is what happened when I tried it last beta. With it enabled, everything gets seperation, but the seperation is the same for everything, so there is still no depth.

EDIT2: Haha I GOT IT WORKING! It IS a profile issue. I used Resource Hacker on the riftpatchbeta.exe. Under RCData there is an XML file, where there are 2 mentions of "rift.exe". I changed these to "riftgame.exe" instead and clicked compile script at the top (dunno if this is necessary) and then I saved the file. Then I made a copy of the rift.exe and named it riftgame.exe. Now when I run the patcher it loads riftgame.exe instead and the nvidia driver no longer recognizes the game so it doesn't go into compatibility mode for that other game.

So .... I guess rift works really well nvidia just hasn't made any sort of profile for it yet... well I just followed this gentleman's directions and of course rift has a big patch today but I will post back whether or not it did indeed correct the errant profile.
Hello all am a bit of a lurker on the boards and I think I have only posted once in the last 3 years.



I have been a 3-d enthusiast since the days when it was marketed by third party companies but still using nvidias separate stereo drivers(which always lagged behind back then!) and we used good old CRT's for 3-d monitors!



But enough of that to the point: Rift planes of telara is listed as poor compatibility, yet from what I have found out it is running on a version of the fallout 3 engine... which looks damn good in 3-d.



So why doesn't rift render more than just the UI in 3-d? apparently nvidia is identifying it as an older game called "the Rift" so after looking around some more, this is what I have found:



You could try taking away permissions to write and delete that file from system and all users, then it can't possibly overwrite it. Where is that resource.dat file btw? Or do you mean the nvstres.dll file?



EDIT: With the current rift beta client, when you have Fullscreen FX disabled only the UI gets seperation, this is what happened when I tried it last beta. With it enabled, everything gets seperation, but the seperation is the same for everything, so there is still no depth.



EDIT2: Haha I GOT IT WORKING! It IS a profile issue. I used Resource Hacker on the riftpatchbeta.exe. Under RCData there is an XML file, where there are 2 mentions of "rift.exe". I changed these to "riftgame.exe" instead and clicked compile script at the top (dunno if this is necessary) and then I saved the file. Then I made a copy of the rift.exe and named it riftgame.exe. Now when I run the patcher it loads riftgame.exe instead and the nvidia driver no longer recognizes the game so it doesn't go into compatibility mode for that other game.



So .... I guess rift works really well nvidia just hasn't made any sort of profile for it yet... well I just followed this gentleman's directions and of course rift has a big patch today but I will post back whether or not it did indeed correct the errant profile.

#1
Posted 03/30/2011 08:33 PM   
OK done patching and it works! everything is rendered properly with one exception....

the light sources, it seems each lightsource is comprised of two sources actually and one moves to provide a flickering or wavering effect. while that wouldn't be an issue normally it seems 3d mode makes the second light source visible (so the screen is actually putting out 4 lightsources) and this looks like some horrible form of ghosting or crosstalk. you could probably deal with it during the daytime but even the reflected light is coming from two sources so characters and objects near a light source seem to blur (again crosstalk or ghosting effect).

oh well at least that better than the game using the incorrect profile for The rift instead of a generic profile.

now if we could just bribe someone at nvidia to set up a proper profile for the game that fixes the lightsources then the game would be perfect.

seriously I would pay for this!!!! lol
OK done patching and it works! everything is rendered properly with one exception....



the light sources, it seems each lightsource is comprised of two sources actually and one moves to provide a flickering or wavering effect. while that wouldn't be an issue normally it seems 3d mode makes the second light source visible (so the screen is actually putting out 4 lightsources) and this looks like some horrible form of ghosting or crosstalk. you could probably deal with it during the daytime but even the reflected light is coming from two sources so characters and objects near a light source seem to blur (again crosstalk or ghosting effect).



oh well at least that better than the game using the incorrect profile for The rift instead of a generic profile.



now if we could just bribe someone at nvidia to set up a proper profile for the game that fixes the lightsources then the game would be perfect.



seriously I would pay for this!!!! lol

#2
Posted 03/30/2011 11:17 PM   
UPDATE:

I tried renaming all the appropriate items to fallout3.exe to see if that would assist with the lighting issue while it didn't correct it the rest of the settings matched the game up perfectly and in the daytime it is a joy to play if you avoid torches and what have you, I still hit my button on my laptop to kill the 3d at night however.

well I guess fiddling with the settings in game could help some but probably not enough. if I find anything else i'll post back.
UPDATE:



I tried renaming all the appropriate items to fallout3.exe to see if that would assist with the lighting issue while it didn't correct it the rest of the settings matched the game up perfectly and in the daytime it is a joy to play if you avoid torches and what have you, I still hit my button on my laptop to kill the 3d at night however.



well I guess fiddling with the settings in game could help some but probably not enough. if I find anything else i'll post back.

#3
Posted 03/31/2011 12:00 AM   
as a matter of interest, what happens when you rename the exe(or whatever you are renaming) to "ofdr.exe" ?
as a matter of interest, what happens when you rename the exe(or whatever you are renaming) to "ofdr.exe" ?

#4
Posted 03/31/2011 12:14 AM   
You might want to check this thread:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191358

Starting with the last post.

Yes the ResHack still works.

Ironically, nVidia "profiled" the game, only to list it as poor (actually "not recommended" when you run the game; they can't figure even that part out) instead of using the DEFAULT profile and suggesting low quality renderer with some elements rendered in 2D. Makes me wonder if they even have a copy of the damn game sometimes.

I made a thread on the Rift forums about all the issues with 3DV here ages ago:
http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?96653-nVidia-3D-Vision-Detailed-list-of-bugs

Yes the shadows and lighting are screwed. Yes nVidia doesn't care. Trion MIGHT care. yes the game works once you reshack the EXE and use the default profile, and looks almost flawless in the low quality renderer - if you can stomach the terrible visuals.

nVidia dropped the ball again on this big time.
You might want to check this thread:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191358



Starting with the last post.



Yes the ResHack still works.



Ironically, nVidia "profiled" the game, only to list it as poor (actually "not recommended" when you run the game; they can't figure even that part out) instead of using the DEFAULT profile and suggesting low quality renderer with some elements rendered in 2D. Makes me wonder if they even have a copy of the damn game sometimes.



I made a thread on the Rift forums about all the issues with 3DV here ages ago:

http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?96653-nVidia-3D-Vision-Detailed-list-of-bugs



Yes the shadows and lighting are screwed. Yes nVidia doesn't care. Trion MIGHT care. yes the game works once you reshack the EXE and use the default profile, and looks almost flawless in the low quality renderer - if you can stomach the terrible visuals.



nVidia dropped the ball again on this big time.

Core i7 920 @ 3.6Ghz, 6GB 3 Channel, SLi GTX670 2GB, SSD

#5
Posted 03/31/2011 12:40 AM   
well i'll be damned ok i'm not alone lol yeah i'm using the res hack version and I renamed it to fallout3 and it does work pretty damn good except for the lighting effects. I did go to trion's site and posted my support there as well so hopefully everyone is actually working on it,

my two cents: it really does seem like their lighting effect (and rift effect) makes a copy of the texture in the lighting range and instead of altering it to show reflected light it also adds a wavering effect. However that wavering effect when rendered in 3d leaves the original texture in place (this is intentional I believe) so we have two textures that are out of sync with each other. while this looks great in 2-d (i think the amount of wavering is also amplified in 3-d ie. increased the actual offset of the textures) it causes that horrendous lighting foul-up in 3d. also it seems to me (don't quote me on this) that the rifts use a similar system but with different settings to make it seem like the air is wavering as you step though into the rift. thanks to my asus laptop's dedicated 3-d button it is rather easy to check 2-d vs 3-d for this sort of thing.

as far as Nvidia's working with trion they prolly got the easy stuff already killed like the chat bubble and life bar render depth etc. hell they have done enough games they can propably come close to the point where they copy and paste the code to fix it lol.

oh well lets hope that within a driver revision or two it will be fixed =)
my guess on an eta (oh god did I just do that?) would be around 2 months if they are actually in communication with trion on a regular basis working to fix these things.
well i'll be damned ok i'm not alone lol yeah i'm using the res hack version and I renamed it to fallout3 and it does work pretty damn good except for the lighting effects. I did go to trion's site and posted my support there as well so hopefully everyone is actually working on it,



my two cents: it really does seem like their lighting effect (and rift effect) makes a copy of the texture in the lighting range and instead of altering it to show reflected light it also adds a wavering effect. However that wavering effect when rendered in 3d leaves the original texture in place (this is intentional I believe) so we have two textures that are out of sync with each other. while this looks great in 2-d (i think the amount of wavering is also amplified in 3-d ie. increased the actual offset of the textures) it causes that horrendous lighting foul-up in 3d. also it seems to me (don't quote me on this) that the rifts use a similar system but with different settings to make it seem like the air is wavering as you step though into the rift. thanks to my asus laptop's dedicated 3-d button it is rather easy to check 2-d vs 3-d for this sort of thing.



as far as Nvidia's working with trion they prolly got the easy stuff already killed like the chat bubble and life bar render depth etc. hell they have done enough games they can propably come close to the point where they copy and paste the code to fix it lol.



oh well lets hope that within a driver revision or two it will be fixed =)

my guess on an eta (oh god did I just do that?) would be around 2 months if they are actually in communication with trion on a regular basis working to fix these things.

#6
Posted 03/31/2011 12:58 AM   
That's just fine except they've had half a year to get it sorted. I'd like to buy into your timeline but considering the communication and the end result based on what's been available (crap, if the public has been playing it for 6 months God only knows how long nVidia had to talk to them about this game) it seems pretty dreary.

Just not a great title to totally and utterly fail on. Doesn't look good on nVidia at all and makes it hard to sell the product to the plethora of folk who love Rift.
That's just fine except they've had half a year to get it sorted. I'd like to buy into your timeline but considering the communication and the end result based on what's been available (crap, if the public has been playing it for 6 months God only knows how long nVidia had to talk to them about this game) it seems pretty dreary.



Just not a great title to totally and utterly fail on. Doesn't look good on nVidia at all and makes it hard to sell the product to the plethora of folk who love Rift.

Core i7 920 @ 3.6Ghz, 6GB 3 Channel, SLi GTX670 2GB, SSD

#7
Posted 03/31/2011 03:56 AM   
I wouldn't hang this all on NVidia.
There are a lot of things they simply can't fix in the driver.
3D usually raises it's head late in develoment, and no one is going to change the way they do lighting and shadows to appease a market the size of 3d vision.
I remember NVidia visiting us on a project I worked on, they pointed out the broken shadows, after they left we discussed it for 5 minutes and didn't fix them. Cost was too high, it would have impacted shadow quality for everyone, so we ignored the 3D market.
I would imagine that most interactions with devs go the same way.

Keep complaining to Trion, maybe they'll fix some of it.
I wouldn't hang this all on NVidia.

There are a lot of things they simply can't fix in the driver.

3D usually raises it's head late in develoment, and no one is going to change the way they do lighting and shadows to appease a market the size of 3d vision.

I remember NVidia visiting us on a project I worked on, they pointed out the broken shadows, after they left we discussed it for 5 minutes and didn't fix them. Cost was too high, it would have impacted shadow quality for everyone, so we ignored the 3D market.

I would imagine that most interactions with devs go the same way.



Keep complaining to Trion, maybe they'll fix some of it.
#8
Posted 03/31/2011 05:22 AM   
[quote name='ERP' date='30 March 2011 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1301548928' post='1216478']
I wouldn't hang this all on NVidia.
There are a lot of things they simply can't fix in the driver.
3D usually raises it's head late in develoment, and no one is going to change the way they do lighting and shadows to appease a market the size of 3d vision.
I remember NVidia visiting us on a project I worked on, they pointed out the broken shadows, after they left we discussed it for 5 minutes and didn't fix them. Cost was too high, it would have impacted shadow quality for everyone, so we ignored the 3D market.
I would imagine that most interactions with devs go the same way.

Keep complaining to Trion, maybe they'll fix some of it.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with you. And I will be pestering Trion about it incessantly as well. HOWEVER, nVidia has more pull and communication ability with Trion than we do, and the ability to work with them, which Andrew says they're doing. The thing is, nVidia should've seen this coming and been in touch with Trion a long long time ago like during beta 1 or earlier. What convinces me that they dropped the ball is the fact that there wasn't even a profile recognizing the game until this beta driver release. That strikes me as unprepared and unresearched on a very large release. The Witcher 2 is still 7 weeks away, and they had no problem profiling that game already - which is great, that's another AAA title that will probably work great at launch.

The fact that the game works BETTER with the "unknown" profile than with nVidia's brand new "profile" seems pretty odd to me; they could've used the "unknown" profile and simply suggested "USE LOW QUALITY RENDERING, SOME OBJECTS AT SCREEN DEPTH" in their startup blurb and that would've at least allowed the average unsuspecting user to TRY the game in 3D without doing silly hacks.

nVidia can do a lot more with the situation than we can, I can only think of so many excuses to keep bumping the thread at Trion's forums, and the voice in that thread is probably a whisper to Trion compared to nVidia's pull.
[quote name='ERP' date='30 March 2011 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1301548928' post='1216478']

I wouldn't hang this all on NVidia.

There are a lot of things they simply can't fix in the driver.

3D usually raises it's head late in develoment, and no one is going to change the way they do lighting and shadows to appease a market the size of 3d vision.

I remember NVidia visiting us on a project I worked on, they pointed out the broken shadows, after they left we discussed it for 5 minutes and didn't fix them. Cost was too high, it would have impacted shadow quality for everyone, so we ignored the 3D market.

I would imagine that most interactions with devs go the same way.



Keep complaining to Trion, maybe they'll fix some of it.





I don't disagree with you. And I will be pestering Trion about it incessantly as well. HOWEVER, nVidia has more pull and communication ability with Trion than we do, and the ability to work with them, which Andrew says they're doing. The thing is, nVidia should've seen this coming and been in touch with Trion a long long time ago like during beta 1 or earlier. What convinces me that they dropped the ball is the fact that there wasn't even a profile recognizing the game until this beta driver release. That strikes me as unprepared and unresearched on a very large release. The Witcher 2 is still 7 weeks away, and they had no problem profiling that game already - which is great, that's another AAA title that will probably work great at launch.



The fact that the game works BETTER with the "unknown" profile than with nVidia's brand new "profile" seems pretty odd to me; they could've used the "unknown" profile and simply suggested "USE LOW QUALITY RENDERING, SOME OBJECTS AT SCREEN DEPTH" in their startup blurb and that would've at least allowed the average unsuspecting user to TRY the game in 3D without doing silly hacks.



nVidia can do a lot more with the situation than we can, I can only think of so many excuses to keep bumping the thread at Trion's forums, and the voice in that thread is probably a whisper to Trion compared to nVidia's pull.

Core i7 920 @ 3.6Ghz, 6GB 3 Channel, SLi GTX670 2GB, SSD

#9
Posted 03/31/2011 07:18 PM   
I'll tell you right now, NVidia has no pull at all with Trion unless they are actually offering money either directly or indirectly.

I do agree on the missing profile, though if you read some of the threads from earlier on ( when Rift was still in Beta) NVidia were clearly aware of the title and it's poor 3D showing.

NVidia could well have been in contact with Trion for Months, but it takes Months to close out a game, and when you're looking towards shipping the last thing you want to do is start messing with stable code.

As a developer what we do when shipping is stick all the requests/bugs/missing features in Bug Tracking software and Triage what was there, on a regular basis, unless we were somehow miraculously ahead in development or there was some corporate mandate for 3D support, I guarantee it would get dropped on the floor before we shipped, possibly with the intention of support in a patch. And the latter probably only if someone internally were passionate about the support.

NVidia has limited resources, they have no real leverage with the game companies, so they work with the people who want to work with them.
It's what I'd do, there is no point in trying to push water up hill.

I can only relate my own experience with NVidia and 3DVision support as a developer, they contacted us months before we shipped, they came to our studio, demonstrated the technology, including early builds of our game running on it, they pointed out the only issue we had was with shadows, offered to help. And we still didn't fix them. For devs finishing games, it's all value vs cost, and unless inside a team you have an evangelist the value right now to commit to 3D is at best minimal, so virtually any cost offsets it.

I'd email customer support at Trion, the forums are likely a waste of time, there is too much noise for the real dev's to read and respond to anything that they don't have their attention directed to by the moderators.
I'll tell you right now, NVidia has no pull at all with Trion unless they are actually offering money either directly or indirectly.



I do agree on the missing profile, though if you read some of the threads from earlier on ( when Rift was still in Beta) NVidia were clearly aware of the title and it's poor 3D showing.



NVidia could well have been in contact with Trion for Months, but it takes Months to close out a game, and when you're looking towards shipping the last thing you want to do is start messing with stable code.



As a developer what we do when shipping is stick all the requests/bugs/missing features in Bug Tracking software and Triage what was there, on a regular basis, unless we were somehow miraculously ahead in development or there was some corporate mandate for 3D support, I guarantee it would get dropped on the floor before we shipped, possibly with the intention of support in a patch. And the latter probably only if someone internally were passionate about the support.



NVidia has limited resources, they have no real leverage with the game companies, so they work with the people who want to work with them.

It's what I'd do, there is no point in trying to push water up hill.



I can only relate my own experience with NVidia and 3DVision support as a developer, they contacted us months before we shipped, they came to our studio, demonstrated the technology, including early builds of our game running on it, they pointed out the only issue we had was with shadows, offered to help. And we still didn't fix them. For devs finishing games, it's all value vs cost, and unless inside a team you have an evangelist the value right now to commit to 3D is at best minimal, so virtually any cost offsets it.



I'd email customer support at Trion, the forums are likely a waste of time, there is too much noise for the real dev's to read and respond to anything that they don't have their attention directed to by the moderators.
#10
Posted 03/31/2011 07:36 PM   
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