Dilemma: Many VR headset owners view wrong scaling as a hardware issue.
2 / 2
true but to be fair, I can understand why people would want to discuss the stereoscopic aspects of VR in here, as it's one of the few place on the internet where people are likely to know what they're talking about...
true but to be fair, I can understand why people would want to discuss the stereoscopic aspects of VR in here, as it's one of the few place on the internet where people are likely to know what they're talking about...
Yes and I am literally wanting to get the opinion of 3D Vision users, for many reasons. Another being the 3D Vision settings and how they adjust can act as a frame of reference to help clear some things up.
I have a response, but im short on time, but here is an initial observation:
------------------------------
I was in-part basing my judgement that a convergence adjustment (the way that Nvidia does it) is important because people were saying their FOV increased with certain changes in eye distance, changing the 2D size of things, which has an over-all effect on 3D perception because of course, the angles of view would then change. However based on this analysis of the FOV of the RIFT, it looks like the 2D FOV change may not be that big at all, however, it sounds like that may be because of the current lens, which according to the charts in the link, cause the FOV to actually get larger with greater lens-eye distance, the opposite of what happens with our 3D Vision displays when we back away from the screen. So it seems there is some sort of evening-out effect with changes with lens-eye distance.
http://doc-ok.org/?p=1414
In particular this part: (He did apparently account for overlap btw)
Lens-camera distance 0mm 5mm 10mm 15mm 20mm 25mm
Left Horizontal FoV 35° 36° 37° 37° 35° 30°
Right Horizontal FoV 43° 45° 47° 47° 44° 39°
Total Horizontal FoV 78° 81° 84° 84° 79° 69°
Vertical FoV 84° 89° 93° 86° 78° 69°
(ill have to fix this chart later, i must be at work soon)
And, like Bo3b said when he switches from wearing glasses to no glasses on the Rift, he notices no difference in 3D scale, that alone is a big relief for me.
So that seems to remove the importance of a convergence adjustment for the Rift, at least to a degree, i guess. There are still use cases for it, such as correcting 3D videos from youtube, which will be different for almost every video maker, IPD as well, which would make easy and quick to use IPD/convergence sliders, like Trine 2 had, very useful.
If you're not aware of those sliders, see this video: (start at 0:40 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ak_nPcNbxQ
----------
However, what about the Vive and the PSVR?, Do they have the same lens arrangement leading to the same balancing effect on FOV and thus 2D size of things? The PSVR has no god ray problem. Could it be a very different lens?
-------------
@DarkStarSword: Only the Rift has screens that move apart. Both the PSVR and Vive i think have single screens. The only thing that matters is the angles. Anything that effect angles changes the size.
@Sammy123 Some people were saying the IPD reported problem wasn't fixed for them in those threads. Not sure why. Correct IPD reporting should be a high priority for them.
Yes and I am literally wanting to get the opinion of 3D Vision users, for many reasons. Another being the 3D Vision settings and how they adjust can act as a frame of reference to help clear some things up.
I have a response, but im short on time, but here is an initial observation:
------------------------------
I was in-part basing my judgement that a convergence adjustment (the way that Nvidia does it) is important because people were saying their FOV increased with certain changes in eye distance, changing the 2D size of things, which has an over-all effect on 3D perception because of course, the angles of view would then change. However based on this analysis of the FOV of the RIFT, it looks like the 2D FOV change may not be that big at all, however, it sounds like that may be because of the current lens, which according to the charts in the link, cause the FOV to actually get larger with greater lens-eye distance, the opposite of what happens with our 3D Vision displays when we back away from the screen. So it seems there is some sort of evening-out effect with changes with lens-eye distance.
http://doc-ok.org/?p=1414
In particular this part: (He did apparently account for overlap btw)
(ill have to fix this chart later, i must be at work soon)
And, like Bo3b said when he switches from wearing glasses to no glasses on the Rift, he notices no difference in 3D scale, that alone is a big relief for me.
So that seems to remove the importance of a convergence adjustment for the Rift, at least to a degree, i guess. There are still use cases for it, such as correcting 3D videos from youtube, which will be different for almost every video maker, IPD as well, which would make easy and quick to use IPD/convergence sliders, like Trine 2 had, very useful.
If you're not aware of those sliders, see this video: (start at 0:40 )
----------
However, what about the Vive and the PSVR?, Do they have the same lens arrangement leading to the same balancing effect on FOV and thus 2D size of things? The PSVR has no god ray problem. Could it be a very different lens?
-------------
@DarkStarSword: Only the Rift has screens that move apart. Both the PSVR and Vive i think have single screens. The only thing that matters is the angles. Anything that effect angles changes the size.
@Sammy123 Some people were saying the IPD reported problem wasn't fixed for them in those threads. Not sure why. Correct IPD reporting should be a high priority for them.
Here is the chart i tried to copy/paste above. It shows the FOV (aka 2D size) getting larger as you move away form the lenes and screen (to a degree), the opposite of what happens when you move away from the screen, reducing the FOV and thus 2D size of things. So again, at least for the Rift, there is a built-in neutralizing effect of screen distance, something that normally needs to be compensated for in your 3D adjustments with normal 3D monitor 3D calibrations. But do all and will all VR headsets have this capability?
Remember that the 2D size of things at it relates to 3D is like a static variable in an equation, or code or whatever (im a house painter..). You can change the 3D all you want but that information will be locked down, if you will, within the 2D image. Too bad i never cared enough about 3D itself to actually learn the correct terms...
[img]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x241/libertine04/rift_fov.jpg[/img]
For anyone interested, heres is a discussion i had with an Oculus users who's scale was off. You can see how hard it is to explain this stuff, at least for me. I'm "Thane" in that thread.
https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/38033/cv1-scale-is-off/p1
Here is the chart i tried to copy/paste above. It shows the FOV (aka 2D size) getting larger as you move away form the lenes and screen (to a degree), the opposite of what happens when you move away from the screen, reducing the FOV and thus 2D size of things. So again, at least for the Rift, there is a built-in neutralizing effect of screen distance, something that normally needs to be compensated for in your 3D adjustments with normal 3D monitor 3D calibrations. But do all and will all VR headsets have this capability?
Remember that the 2D size of things at it relates to 3D is like a static variable in an equation, or code or whatever (im a house painter..). You can change the 3D all you want but that information will be locked down, if you will, within the 2D image. Too bad i never cared enough about 3D itself to actually learn the correct terms...
Yey... more talk about lenses and VR in the 3D Vision forums....
Is the VR forum dead already ?
What you talk there is related to optics and how the lenses work...
VR is different in matters of "how it presents" things, as we need to use lenses and other things... from 3D Vision where your "lens" is your screen...
You are also talking about FOV... where there are 2 types of FOVs:
- Game FOV which you can or can't change
- Lens "FOV" based on what type it is : concave vs convex. The closer/further you are from it, the FOV will change... or better said warp/distort.
Anyway, just ignore me... Don't know why I posted it;))
Other people have more experience with VR than me;)
Yey... more talk about lenses and VR in the 3D Vision forums....
Is the VR forum dead already ?
What you talk there is related to optics and how the lenses work...
VR is different in matters of "how it presents" things, as we need to use lenses and other things... from 3D Vision where your "lens" is your screen...
You are also talking about FOV... where there are 2 types of FOVs:
- Game FOV which you can or can't change
- Lens "FOV" based on what type it is : concave vs convex. The closer/further you are from it, the FOV will change... or better said warp/distort.
Anyway, just ignore me... Don't know why I posted it;))
Other people have more experience with VR than me;)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Its about 3D, not VR and the comparison between 3D Vision and "VR" 3D. Its also using 3D Vision adjustments as a frame of reference.
Helifax, what made you think we didn't know all of that already? LIKE ALL OF IT.
Helifax, never used one of your fixes yet btw. Just thought you should know. So maybe get THE FUCK off my back, im trying to help people get their shit working.
Its about 3D, not VR and the comparison between 3D Vision and "VR" 3D. Its also using 3D Vision adjustments as a frame of reference.
Helifax, what made you think we didn't know all of that already? LIKE ALL OF IT.
Helifax, never used one of your fixes yet btw. Just thought you should know. So maybe get THE FUCK off my back, im trying to help people get their shit working.
Edit:
Removed flaming post on purpose not to create further confusion or "fuel for the flame or argument".
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
[quote="Libertine"]Its about 3D, not VR and the comparison between 3D Vision and "VR" 3D. Its also using 3D Vision adjustments as a frame of reference. [/quote]
It certainly seems to me that it's more about VR than 3D Vision. But I understand, the VR forums are a scary and lonely place.
[quote="helifax"]Yey... more talk about lenses and VR in the 3D Vision forums....
Is the VR forum dead already ?
What you talk there is related to optics and how the lenses work...
VR is different in matters of "how it presents" things, as we need to use lenses and other things... from 3D Vision where your "lens" is your screen...
You are also talking about FOV... where there are 2 types of FOVs:
- Game FOV which you can or can't change
- Lens "FOV" based on what type it is : concave vs convex. The closer/further you are from it, the FOV will change... or better said warp/distort.
Anyway, just ignore me... Don't know why I posted it;))
Other people have more experience with VR than me;)[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from. For me at least, as long as it is at least tangentially related to 3D Vision, it's OK. In other words, if it explains something about 3D perception, or how it all works.
Take for example, DarkStarSwords [i]awesome[/i] post on the prior page. Super interesting and helpful.
Here is this sort of idea, xkcd style:
[img]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/depth_perception.png[/img]
helifax said:Yey... more talk about lenses and VR in the 3D Vision forums....
Is the VR forum dead already ?
What you talk there is related to optics and how the lenses work...
VR is different in matters of "how it presents" things, as we need to use lenses and other things... from 3D Vision where your "lens" is your screen...
You are also talking about FOV... where there are 2 types of FOVs:
- Game FOV which you can or can't change
- Lens "FOV" based on what type it is : concave vs convex. The closer/further you are from it, the FOV will change... or better said warp/distort.
Anyway, just ignore me... Don't know why I posted it;))
Other people have more experience with VR than me;)
I understand where you are coming from. For me at least, as long as it is at least tangentially related to 3D Vision, it's OK. In other words, if it explains something about 3D perception, or how it all works.
Take for example, DarkStarSwords awesome post on the prior page. Super interesting and helpful.
Here is this sort of idea, xkcd style:
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
[quote="Libertine"]Im currently suicidal and I'm currently watching a movie in a library.[/quote]Please find some time to go and see your GP about this. Mental health issues are very serious and should be treated just as seriously as a broken arm or any other "visible" illness. A GP is your first point of contact to diagnose what you have and discuss what treatment options are available and can refer you to specialists.
If it's an emergency, especially as you are suicidal, please call whatever support services are available in your country! These are some Australian organisations with contacts for emergency help, you should be able to find some for your country with a quick google search:
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/get-immediate-support
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/gettinghelp/emergencyhelp.cfm
Most importantly, I hope you know that you are not alone - I personally have suffered from clinical depression for the last 14 years, and a couple of times have been driven to the point where I seriously considered taking my life as sometimes it seemed like it might be the only way out. There is always another way, and try to remember that - there are people who love you, and there are lots of other people who have been through exactly what you are going through.
I just grabbed some words and contact details from the Depression Awareness Support Group on Facebook that might help you (it's a secret group where sufferers of depression can support each other in confidence - if you think that might be of use to you, get in touch with me on Facebook and I can send you an invite):
Words borrowed from 'Blunt' fb page:
Depression convinces us that we're helpless, hopeless and unworthy. Because of that, reaching out for help doesn't always make sense. We don't want to be a burden, we don't want to take help away from someone who we perceive to be more deserving.
We can 100% assure you that depression really is lying and that you are TOTALLY worthy and deserving of help. Here are some resources which we hope you find useful in reaching out for help:
Get Support: https://www.blurtitout.org/get-support/
Blurt's Peer Support Group: http://bit.ly/2a1kaa1
Elefriends: http://bit.ly/1delhAF
Friends in Need: http://bit.ly/1xSf6as
The Samaritans: http://www.samaritans.org/
I'm Alive: https://www.imalive.org/
Letting Loved Ones In: http://bit.ly/2a5dzcM
Managing Depression: Hacks and Hints for Difficult Days: http://bit.ly/29OkRkQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-IR48Mb3W0
Libertine said:Im currently suicidal and I'm currently watching a movie in a library.
Please find some time to go and see your GP about this. Mental health issues are very serious and should be treated just as seriously as a broken arm or any other "visible" illness. A GP is your first point of contact to diagnose what you have and discuss what treatment options are available and can refer you to specialists.
Most importantly, I hope you know that you are not alone - I personally have suffered from clinical depression for the last 14 years, and a couple of times have been driven to the point where I seriously considered taking my life as sometimes it seemed like it might be the only way out. There is always another way, and try to remember that - there are people who love you, and there are lots of other people who have been through exactly what you are going through.
I just grabbed some words and contact details from the Depression Awareness Support Group on Facebook that might help you (it's a secret group where sufferers of depression can support each other in confidence - if you think that might be of use to you, get in touch with me on Facebook and I can send you an invite):
Words borrowed from 'Blunt' fb page:
Depression convinces us that we're helpless, hopeless and unworthy. Because of that, reaching out for help doesn't always make sense. We don't want to be a burden, we don't want to take help away from someone who we perceive to be more deserving.
We can 100% assure you that depression really is lying and that you are TOTALLY worthy and deserving of help. Here are some resources which we hope you find useful in reaching out for help:
I should have been more clear, but i was trying to get Helifax to understand where I was coming from since people rely on him for fixes. If he had seen what I've been through in the recent past I was sure he would understand why I would be a little quick to anger, so I was just trying to get him to understand. Trust me, I'm doing fine, no need to try and help, but that was very nice of you to write all that out Darkstar.
Helixfax, sorry, but from my point of view, you basically came into this thread twice and said "hey i don't like what you guys are talking about, please go have your conversation in the place where they don't have conversations", in essence, telling me "shut up" and about something i really care about, a problem im trying to solve, then proceeded to give me the run down on the basics of 3D, like everyone else in this thread did for some strange reason.
I should have been more clear, but i was trying to get Helifax to understand where I was coming from since people rely on him for fixes. If he had seen what I've been through in the recent past I was sure he would understand why I would be a little quick to anger, so I was just trying to get him to understand. Trust me, I'm doing fine, no need to try and help, but that was very nice of you to write all that out Darkstar.
Helixfax, sorry, but from my point of view, you basically came into this thread twice and said "hey i don't like what you guys are talking about, please go have your conversation in the place where they don't have conversations", in essence, telling me "shut up" and about something i really care about, a problem im trying to solve, then proceeded to give me the run down on the basics of 3D, like everyone else in this thread did for some strange reason.
Ok, but suicide is no laughing matter - if you have had any suicidal thoughts that is cause for concern, even if they are rare or you quickly dismissed them.
I'm just going to leave you with this link:
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-facts/suicide-prevention/worried-about-suicide/talking-to-someone-about-your-suicidal-feelings
Ok, but suicide is no laughing matter - if you have had any suicidal thoughts that is cause for concern, even if they are rare or you quickly dismissed them.
[quote="DarkStarSword"][quote]You are of course right, that if the IPD is being used wrong by the game, sent in as 64 always, with no respect to the actual IPD, that different users will get different scaling. At infinity, if a person has a >64 IPD they'd see less depth than desired, just like turning down the separation. If a person has <64, they'd see hyperstereo, more separation than desired, and probably eyestrain as their eyes diverge.[/quote]I don't think that is quite right - it certainly will have an effect on the percieved scale, but getting it wrong - even vastly wrong - should not cause their eyes to diverge.
"Separation" as we know it comes from the *off-center* part of the projection matrix - this is what causes our eyes to diverge if it is set too high. For VR, the 3D effect is not created in this manner as separation comes from physically separating the screens (wheras in 3D Vision we only have one screen and have to simulate separating it into two). VR *does* use an off-center projection matrix, but it is only to account for the alignment difference between the lenses and center of the screens, and is otherwise unrelated to the IPD.
"Convergence" as we know it is mathematically equivelent to moving the camera in space, which is how VR achieves 3D, whereas we use it for pop-out and toyification (in the case of 3D Vision that is multiplied by separation to achieve this equivalence, but that is just maths and doesn't change the concept). This controls the percieved scale of the world and for realistic results in VR should be tied to the IPD, but getting it wrong will only change the percieved scale, and should not cause the eyes to diverge. Setting it way too high does require the eyes to go cross-eyed to focus on something close as I'm sure we are all quite familiar with, but that is the opposite of diverging... and no different to trying to focus on something very small and very close in real life (just that in a virtual world there is no nose stopping things from getting *really* close).
You can think of it this way - no matter how far apart your eyes are, the light rays coming from an object infinitely far away are still parallel, so under no circumstances will your eyes need to diverge, and the same applies to VR. The reason 3D Vision can cause the eyes to diverge is because it simulates infinity based on however many pixels match the IPD (which depends on the monitor size and your IPD), whereas in VR that answer is always 0 pixels.[/quote]
Super helpful explanation, thanks very much for this detail.
I've been doing some experimentation with VR and 3D software, and setting the separation to zero, and only using convergence gives good results.
One thing that was suggestive, although I don't have any strong data, is that the convergence value itself seems to be the IPD number in cm. I get good results with convergence=6.4 for example, and get Alice-in-Wonderland scaling either too big or too small in either direction. Just thought I'd share that in case it had explanatory value.
I don't quite understand what you mean by "convergence being mathematically equivalent to moving the camera in space." It seems like that would be a translation, and whenever I use convergence even in 3D Vision it always seems like a scaling effect.
Like if I dial up convergence to bring pop-out, that 'feels' more like a scaling of the z axis, where it was all compressed behind the screen, and convergence is decompressing it into a larger volume, including outside the screen depth.
You are of course right, that if the IPD is being used wrong by the game, sent in as 64 always, with no respect to the actual IPD, that different users will get different scaling. At infinity, if a person has a >64 IPD they'd see less depth than desired, just like turning down the separation. If a person has <64, they'd see hyperstereo, more separation than desired, and probably eyestrain as their eyes diverge.
I don't think that is quite right - it certainly will have an effect on the percieved scale, but getting it wrong - even vastly wrong - should not cause their eyes to diverge.
"Separation" as we know it comes from the *off-center* part of the projection matrix - this is what causes our eyes to diverge if it is set too high. For VR, the 3D effect is not created in this manner as separation comes from physically separating the screens (wheras in 3D Vision we only have one screen and have to simulate separating it into two). VR *does* use an off-center projection matrix, but it is only to account for the alignment difference between the lenses and center of the screens, and is otherwise unrelated to the IPD.
"Convergence" as we know it is mathematically equivelent to moving the camera in space, which is how VR achieves 3D, whereas we use it for pop-out and toyification (in the case of 3D Vision that is multiplied by separation to achieve this equivalence, but that is just maths and doesn't change the concept). This controls the percieved scale of the world and for realistic results in VR should be tied to the IPD, but getting it wrong will only change the percieved scale, and should not cause the eyes to diverge. Setting it way too high does require the eyes to go cross-eyed to focus on something close as I'm sure we are all quite familiar with, but that is the opposite of diverging... and no different to trying to focus on something very small and very close in real life (just that in a virtual world there is no nose stopping things from getting *really* close).
You can think of it this way - no matter how far apart your eyes are, the light rays coming from an object infinitely far away are still parallel, so under no circumstances will your eyes need to diverge, and the same applies to VR. The reason 3D Vision can cause the eyes to diverge is because it simulates infinity based on however many pixels match the IPD (which depends on the monitor size and your IPD), whereas in VR that answer is always 0 pixels.
Super helpful explanation, thanks very much for this detail.
I've been doing some experimentation with VR and 3D software, and setting the separation to zero, and only using convergence gives good results.
One thing that was suggestive, although I don't have any strong data, is that the convergence value itself seems to be the IPD number in cm. I get good results with convergence=6.4 for example, and get Alice-in-Wonderland scaling either too big or too small in either direction. Just thought I'd share that in case it had explanatory value.
I don't quite understand what you mean by "convergence being mathematically equivalent to moving the camera in space." It seems like that would be a translation, and whenever I use convergence even in 3D Vision it always seems like a scaling effect.
Like if I dial up convergence to bring pop-out, that 'feels' more like a scaling of the z axis, where it was all compressed behind the screen, and convergence is decompressing it into a larger volume, including outside the screen depth.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Since we are talking about lenses, and I had mentioned getting VR lenses in this thread, I thought I should report back.
I got the free form RABS lenses from VR Lens Lab as opposed to the normal lenses which caused all manner of distortion problems reportedly. Although I do not have a comparison to make with the old lenses, these RABS lenses are pretty good - they are designed specifically to reduce distortions. There definitely is barrel distortion, but only most noticeable in the outer extremities.
I would suggest glasses wearers to give these new lenses a go.
@bo3b, I remember a while back from one of your reddit posts, you mentioned that you had tried reversing the VR lenses but this wasn't acceptable due to astigmatism. I was thinking - you could get your correct lens position just by rotating the lens till you saw clearly and then sticking the lenses down with foam or blue tack etc. Since they would be near 180 degrees out of revolution, you might be able to swap the lens adaptors for each lens to make the rotating easier.
One point which I wanted to make in this thread in general, which I had omitted in my previous posts was that depth of field combined with object depth focus also play a huge role in 3D depth perception. VR lacks these two abilities completely DOF, or to focus or eyes on objects near or far - in VR, everything is presented at infinity. It is logical that - all other things being equal - a person would get less feeling of depth if they were not able to use DOF nor focus on close / far objects as a part of their brain's perception toolset.
It's a identical problem to 3D Vision - they eyes, although being able to sense convergence and seperation cannot sense depth of field or focus on anything other than the monitor / projector screen.
[img]https://klebnikova.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/deep-dof-ex-1.jpg[/img]
[img]https://klebnikova.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/gnome-dof.jpg[/img]
Even in a 2D flat image without utilising our eye focus, one can really sense the depth.
IIRC, nvidia designed an HMD specifically to address this issue....
Link:
[url]http://lightfield-forum.com/2013/07/refocus-your-eyes-nvidia-presents-near-eye-light-field-display-prototype/[/url]
Since we are talking about lenses, and I had mentioned getting VR lenses in this thread, I thought I should report back.
I got the free form RABS lenses from VR Lens Lab as opposed to the normal lenses which caused all manner of distortion problems reportedly. Although I do not have a comparison to make with the old lenses, these RABS lenses are pretty good - they are designed specifically to reduce distortions. There definitely is barrel distortion, but only most noticeable in the outer extremities.
I would suggest glasses wearers to give these new lenses a go.
@bo3b, I remember a while back from one of your reddit posts, you mentioned that you had tried reversing the VR lenses but this wasn't acceptable due to astigmatism. I was thinking - you could get your correct lens position just by rotating the lens till you saw clearly and then sticking the lenses down with foam or blue tack etc. Since they would be near 180 degrees out of revolution, you might be able to swap the lens adaptors for each lens to make the rotating easier.
One point which I wanted to make in this thread in general, which I had omitted in my previous posts was that depth of field combined with object depth focus also play a huge role in 3D depth perception. VR lacks these two abilities completely DOF, or to focus or eyes on objects near or far - in VR, everything is presented at infinity. It is logical that - all other things being equal - a person would get less feeling of depth if they were not able to use DOF nor focus on close / far objects as a part of their brain's perception toolset.
It's a identical problem to 3D Vision - they eyes, although being able to sense convergence and seperation cannot sense depth of field or focus on anything other than the monitor / projector screen.
Even in a 2D flat image without utilising our eye focus, one can really sense the depth.
I have a response, but im short on time, but here is an initial observation:
------------------------------
I was in-part basing my judgement that a convergence adjustment (the way that Nvidia does it) is important because people were saying their FOV increased with certain changes in eye distance, changing the 2D size of things, which has an over-all effect on 3D perception because of course, the angles of view would then change. However based on this analysis of the FOV of the RIFT, it looks like the 2D FOV change may not be that big at all, however, it sounds like that may be because of the current lens, which according to the charts in the link, cause the FOV to actually get larger with greater lens-eye distance, the opposite of what happens with our 3D Vision displays when we back away from the screen. So it seems there is some sort of evening-out effect with changes with lens-eye distance.
http://doc-ok.org/?p=1414
In particular this part: (He did apparently account for overlap btw)
Lens-camera distance 0mm 5mm 10mm 15mm 20mm 25mm
Left Horizontal FoV 35° 36° 37° 37° 35° 30°
Right Horizontal FoV 43° 45° 47° 47° 44° 39°
Total Horizontal FoV 78° 81° 84° 84° 79° 69°
Vertical FoV 84° 89° 93° 86° 78° 69°
(ill have to fix this chart later, i must be at work soon)
And, like Bo3b said when he switches from wearing glasses to no glasses on the Rift, he notices no difference in 3D scale, that alone is a big relief for me.
So that seems to remove the importance of a convergence adjustment for the Rift, at least to a degree, i guess. There are still use cases for it, such as correcting 3D videos from youtube, which will be different for almost every video maker, IPD as well, which would make easy and quick to use IPD/convergence sliders, like Trine 2 had, very useful.
If you're not aware of those sliders, see this video: (start at 0:40 )
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However, what about the Vive and the PSVR?, Do they have the same lens arrangement leading to the same balancing effect on FOV and thus 2D size of things? The PSVR has no god ray problem. Could it be a very different lens?
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@DarkStarSword: Only the Rift has screens that move apart. Both the PSVR and Vive i think have single screens. The only thing that matters is the angles. Anything that effect angles changes the size.
@Sammy123 Some people were saying the IPD reported problem wasn't fixed for them in those threads. Not sure why. Correct IPD reporting should be a high priority for them.
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
Remember that the 2D size of things at it relates to 3D is like a static variable in an equation, or code or whatever (im a house painter..). You can change the 3D all you want but that information will be locked down, if you will, within the 2D image. Too bad i never cared enough about 3D itself to actually learn the correct terms...
For anyone interested, heres is a discussion i had with an Oculus users who's scale was off. You can see how hard it is to explain this stuff, at least for me. I'm "Thane" in that thread.
https://forums.oculus.com/community/discussion/38033/cv1-scale-is-off/p1
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
Is the VR forum dead already ?
What you talk there is related to optics and how the lenses work...
VR is different in matters of "how it presents" things, as we need to use lenses and other things... from 3D Vision where your "lens" is your screen...
You are also talking about FOV... where there are 2 types of FOVs:
- Game FOV which you can or can't change
- Lens "FOV" based on what type it is : concave vs convex. The closer/further you are from it, the FOV will change... or better said warp/distort.
Anyway, just ignore me... Don't know why I posted it;))
Other people have more experience with VR than me;)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Helifax, what made you think we didn't know all of that already? LIKE ALL OF IT.
Helifax, never used one of your fixes yet btw. Just thought you should know. So maybe get THE FUCK off my back, im trying to help people get their shit working.
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
Removed flaming post on purpose not to create further confusion or "fuel for the flame or argument".
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
It certainly seems to me that it's more about VR than 3D Vision. But I understand, the VR forums are a scary and lonely place.
snip for privacy...
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
I understand where you are coming from. For me at least, as long as it is at least tangentially related to 3D Vision, it's OK. In other words, if it explains something about 3D perception, or how it all works.
Take for example, DarkStarSwords awesome post on the prior page. Super interesting and helpful.
Here is this sort of idea, xkcd style:
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
If it's an emergency, especially as you are suicidal, please call whatever support services are available in your country! These are some Australian organisations with contacts for emergency help, you should be able to find some for your country with a quick google search:
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/get-support/get-immediate-support
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/public/gettinghelp/emergencyhelp.cfm
Most importantly, I hope you know that you are not alone - I personally have suffered from clinical depression for the last 14 years, and a couple of times have been driven to the point where I seriously considered taking my life as sometimes it seemed like it might be the only way out. There is always another way, and try to remember that - there are people who love you, and there are lots of other people who have been through exactly what you are going through.
I just grabbed some words and contact details from the Depression Awareness Support Group on Facebook that might help you (it's a secret group where sufferers of depression can support each other in confidence - if you think that might be of use to you, get in touch with me on Facebook and I can send you an invite):
Words borrowed from 'Blunt' fb page:
Depression convinces us that we're helpless, hopeless and unworthy. Because of that, reaching out for help doesn't always make sense. We don't want to be a burden, we don't want to take help away from someone who we perceive to be more deserving.
We can 100% assure you that depression really is lying and that you are TOTALLY worthy and deserving of help. Here are some resources which we hope you find useful in reaching out for help:
Get Support: https://www.blurtitout.org/get-support/
Blurt's Peer Support Group: http://bit.ly/2a1kaa1
Elefriends: http://bit.ly/1delhAF
Friends in Need: http://bit.ly/1xSf6as
The Samaritans: http://www.samaritans.org/
I'm Alive: https://www.imalive.org/
Letting Loved Ones In: http://bit.ly/2a5dzcM
Managing Depression: Hacks and Hints for Difficult Days: http://bit.ly/29OkRkQ
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D, Intel i7 3740QM, GTX 680m 2GB, 16GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM, Win7 64bit, 1TB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750GB HDD
Pre-release 3D fixes, shadertool.py and other goodies: http://github.com/DarkStarSword/3d-fixes
Support me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DarkStarSword or PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/DarkStarSword
Helixfax, sorry, but from my point of view, you basically came into this thread twice and said "hey i don't like what you guys are talking about, please go have your conversation in the place where they don't have conversations", in essence, telling me "shut up" and about something i really care about, a problem im trying to solve, then proceeded to give me the run down on the basics of 3D, like everyone else in this thread did for some strange reason.
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
I'm just going to leave you with this link:
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-facts/suicide-prevention/worried-about-suicide/talking-to-someone-about-your-suicidal-feelings
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D, Intel i7 3740QM, GTX 680m 2GB, 16GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM, Win7 64bit, 1TB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750GB HDD
Pre-release 3D fixes, shadertool.py and other goodies: http://github.com/DarkStarSword/3d-fixes
Support me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DarkStarSword or PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/DarkStarSword
Super helpful explanation, thanks very much for this detail.
I've been doing some experimentation with VR and 3D software, and setting the separation to zero, and only using convergence gives good results.
One thing that was suggestive, although I don't have any strong data, is that the convergence value itself seems to be the IPD number in cm. I get good results with convergence=6.4 for example, and get Alice-in-Wonderland scaling either too big or too small in either direction. Just thought I'd share that in case it had explanatory value.
I don't quite understand what you mean by "convergence being mathematically equivalent to moving the camera in space." It seems like that would be a translation, and whenever I use convergence even in 3D Vision it always seems like a scaling effect.
Like if I dial up convergence to bring pop-out, that 'feels' more like a scaling of the z axis, where it was all compressed behind the screen, and convergence is decompressing it into a larger volume, including outside the screen depth.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
I got the free form RABS lenses from VR Lens Lab as opposed to the normal lenses which caused all manner of distortion problems reportedly. Although I do not have a comparison to make with the old lenses, these RABS lenses are pretty good - they are designed specifically to reduce distortions. There definitely is barrel distortion, but only most noticeable in the outer extremities.
I would suggest glasses wearers to give these new lenses a go.
@bo3b, I remember a while back from one of your reddit posts, you mentioned that you had tried reversing the VR lenses but this wasn't acceptable due to astigmatism. I was thinking - you could get your correct lens position just by rotating the lens till you saw clearly and then sticking the lenses down with foam or blue tack etc. Since they would be near 180 degrees out of revolution, you might be able to swap the lens adaptors for each lens to make the rotating easier.
One point which I wanted to make in this thread in general, which I had omitted in my previous posts was that depth of field combined with object depth focus also play a huge role in 3D depth perception. VR lacks these two abilities completely DOF, or to focus or eyes on objects near or far - in VR, everything is presented at infinity. It is logical that - all other things being equal - a person would get less feeling of depth if they were not able to use DOF nor focus on close / far objects as a part of their brain's perception toolset.
It's a identical problem to 3D Vision - they eyes, although being able to sense convergence and seperation cannot sense depth of field or focus on anything other than the monitor / projector screen.
Even in a 2D flat image without utilising our eye focus, one can really sense the depth.
IIRC, nvidia designed an HMD specifically to address this issue....
Link:
http://lightfield-forum.com/2013/07/refocus-your-eyes-nvidia-presents-near-eye-light-field-display-prototype/
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.