WARNING about Rollermod
  10 / 12    
My assumptions is that whatever the method is it has to be fairly quick and I would assume it is using the image data coming in and producing two images in parallell hardware.

Unless we can start using cameras and static extreme test images it would be hard to find the real algorithm.

Two extreme images is alternating black and white lines with pixel spacing 1 either horizontal or vertical.

In the four neighbour average I applied this would make all the missing pixels gray rather than the pure white and plack of the original.

You could consider it bluring but then this averaging is better than my first attempt at restoring which caused severe and unessesary bluring.

The frequency response of each CB image is lacing in half the resolution in each diagonal direction and this lack of information can definitively be seen however the image is restored.
My assumptions is that whatever the method is it has to be fairly quick and I would assume it is using the image data coming in and producing two images in parallell hardware.



Unless we can start using cameras and static extreme test images it would be hard to find the real algorithm.



Two extreme images is alternating black and white lines with pixel spacing 1 either horizontal or vertical.



In the four neighbour average I applied this would make all the missing pixels gray rather than the pure white and plack of the original.



You could consider it bluring but then this averaging is better than my first attempt at restoring which caused severe and unessesary bluring.



The frequency response of each CB image is lacing in half the resolution in each diagonal direction and this lack of information can definitively be seen however the image is restored.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

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Posted 02/02/2012 04:34 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='02 February 2012 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1328198797' post='1364190']
Does the CB image [last image down] in Flint Eastwood's thread look exactly like CB, if not exactly, how is it different? Does CB have the tiny "teeth" that i see on my display? If CB has the "teeth", is it that bad, or not as bad?
[/quote]
This statement is utterly wrong:
"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",
no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode.

Image #2 can't be used to judge CB mode because the two images aren't composited onto each other to make a single frame as they are when in-game. CB works only because of this composition which can't happen in screen shots. that's why I keep telling you that these pics are extremely misleading, they are worse than useless because they give people the wrong idea. Like you, they assume they are a true representation of what they will see when gaming in CB, they aren't.
[quote name='Libertine' date='02 February 2012 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1328198797' post='1364190']

Does the CB image [last image down] in Flint Eastwood's thread look exactly like CB, if not exactly, how is it different? Does CB have the tiny "teeth" that i see on my display? If CB has the "teeth", is it that bad, or not as bad?



This statement is utterly wrong:

"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",

no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode.



Image #2 can't be used to judge CB mode because the two images aren't composited onto each other to make a single frame as they are when in-game. CB works only because of this composition which can't happen in screen shots. that's why I keep telling you that these pics are extremely misleading, they are worse than useless because they give people the wrong idea. Like you, they assume they are a true representation of what they will see when gaming in CB, they aren't.

Posted 02/02/2012 04:34 PM   
[quote name='eqzitara' date='02 February 2012 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1328200238' post='1364204']
Just a suggestion but this is my last post under this topic.
[/quote] Good! Cause your posts are the only spam i see in here. Every one else is just trying to get to the bottom of CB.
[quote name='eqzitara' date='02 February 2012 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1328200238' post='1364204']

Just a suggestion but this is my last post under this topic.

Good! Cause your posts are the only spam i see in here. Every one else is just trying to get to the bottom of CB.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 02/02/2012 05:04 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='02 February 2012 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1328200470' post='1364207']
This statement is utterly wrong:
"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",
no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode.[/quote] Thank you. Would you say CB is as blurry as the image Flugan took?


Like you, they assume they are a true representation of what they will see when gaming in CB, they aren't.
[/quote]
Me? I don't assume those are true representations, again, hence the questions.... /blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
[quote name='roller11' date='02 February 2012 - 08:34 AM' timestamp='1328200470' post='1364207']

This statement is utterly wrong:

"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",

no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode. Thank you. Would you say CB is as blurry as the image Flugan took?





Like you, they assume they are a true representation of what they will see when gaming in CB, they aren't.



Me? I don't assume those are true representations, again, hence the questions.... /blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 02/02/2012 05:14 PM   
[quote]1) 720p - Your picture would most likely represent 720p frame sequential, not 720p frame packing. As I detailed a bit earlier, I think 720p goes through more processing that ultimately degrades the image, but I have no direct proof of this other than what I provided. The main driving force behind my conclusion is the extreme disdain users have for 720p FP using 3DTV Play, while 720p FS is quite playable imo if I had to do so on my 1080p panel. [/quote] I don't see the extreme disdain for it, other than Roller. Frangcom didn't like it either, but then said his panel was applying sharpening by default, which highlighted the aliasing. The same thing happened to me.

My Metro screenshots in my sig look exactly the same to me in-game as they do when viewed using the Nvidia viewer. I assume they would look the same to you. Do they look bad to you on your monitor?

Im very confused over all this. So many different opinions.

I want to upgrade my display and i just saw a good demo of the HX929, [which looked amazing btw], but i want to move beyond 720p. Roller and Frangcom say SBS looks like CB. SBS using Tridef looks horrible in dead space 2 compared to 720p and im noticing its a little blurrier in general. Maybe its Tridef? Or is it SBS? Maybe its Sony's scaling algorithms? Do i trust what someone says, which i usually don't do, or do i wait for some kind sole to [b]heave[/b] his [b]heavy[/b] camera [b]all the way[/b] up onto a stack of books and take some close up photos in different modes?
1) 720p - Your picture would most likely represent 720p frame sequential, not 720p frame packing. As I detailed a bit earlier, I think 720p goes through more processing that ultimately degrades the image, but I have no direct proof of this other than what I provided. The main driving force behind my conclusion is the extreme disdain users have for 720p FP using 3DTV Play, while 720p FS is quite playable imo if I had to do so on my 1080p panel.
I don't see the extreme disdain for it, other than Roller. Frangcom didn't like it either, but then said his panel was applying sharpening by default, which highlighted the aliasing. The same thing happened to me.



My Metro screenshots in my sig look exactly the same to me in-game as they do when viewed using the Nvidia viewer. I assume they would look the same to you. Do they look bad to you on your monitor?



Im very confused over all this. So many different opinions.



I want to upgrade my display and i just saw a good demo of the HX929, [which looked amazing btw], but i want to move beyond 720p. Roller and Frangcom say SBS looks like CB. SBS using Tridef looks horrible in dead space 2 compared to 720p and im noticing its a little blurrier in general. Maybe its Tridef? Or is it SBS? Maybe its Sony's scaling algorithms? Do i trust what someone says, which i usually don't do, or do i wait for some kind sole to heave his heavy camera all the way up onto a stack of books and take some close up photos in different modes?

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 02/02/2012 05:58 PM   
I guess I'm not really that helpful regarding CB.

Anyone currently capable of running CB can also run 1080p and 720p and maybe even separately on a PC monitor.

I'm wondering how the following picture looks using the different modes.

There is a lot of detail in the trees.

As the original image is 2x 7MP we should be able to compare 720p and 1080p quite well using one picture.

http://www.mediafire.com/?kb3kl484vyo74ki
I guess I'm not really that helpful regarding CB.



Anyone currently capable of running CB can also run 1080p and 720p and maybe even separately on a PC monitor.



I'm wondering how the following picture looks using the different modes.



There is a lot of detail in the trees.



As the original image is 2x 7MP we should be able to compare 720p and 1080p quite well using one picture.



http://www.mediafire.com/?kb3kl484vyo74ki

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

Posted 02/02/2012 07:13 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='02 February 2012 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1328200470' post='1364207']This statement is utterly wrong:
"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",
no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode.[/quote]
Maybe a 3DTV does some more intelligent interpolation on the source.

Is there no possibility for you to take some macro-photos of your screen through one eye of your shutter-glasses? You can use my 1080p JPS and shoot some of the high-detail parts - for example the spikes.
[quote name='roller11' date='02 February 2012 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1328200470' post='1364207']This statement is utterly wrong:

"CB has these cross-pixelation-artifacts(maybe the main reason why some people are disappointed with CB),",

no such thing as "cross-pixelation-artifacts" in CB, and I have no idea where those tiny teeth come from. These pics are from the game "BulletStorm", the game I've done more testing with than any other 3D game. Those teeth don't exit when in CB mode.

Maybe a 3DTV does some more intelligent interpolation on the source.



Is there no possibility for you to take some macro-photos of your screen through one eye of your shutter-glasses? You can use my 1080p JPS and shoot some of the high-detail parts - for example the spikes.

Desktop-PC

i7 870 @ 3.8GHz + MSI GTX1070 Gaming X + 16GB RAM + Win10 64Bit Home + AW2310+3D-Vision

Posted 02/02/2012 07:18 PM   
I would expect any photo of 3D through shutter glasses to be very timing sensitive and even if you can get a good one it's not really trivial to recreate the colors of each pixel from the sub-elements.

Are there any changes to CB requirements in the new beta driver?

Seemed like they are starting to support the new mitsubishi DLP TVs that has internal sync.
I would expect any photo of 3D through shutter glasses to be very timing sensitive and even if you can get a good one it's not really trivial to recreate the colors of each pixel from the sub-elements.



Are there any changes to CB requirements in the new beta driver?



Seemed like they are starting to support the new mitsubishi DLP TVs that has internal sync.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

Posted 02/02/2012 07:43 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='02 February 2012 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1328205487' post='1364240']
I don't see the extreme disdain for it, other than Roller. Frangcom didn't like it either, but then said his panel was applying sharpening by default, which highlighted the aliasing. The same thing happened to me.

My Metro screenshots in my sig look exactly the same to me in-game as they do when viewed using the Nvidia viewer. I assume they would look the same to you. Do they look bad to you on your monitor?

Im very confused over all this. So many different opinions.

I want to upgrade my display and i just saw a good demo of the HX929, [which looked amazing btw], but i want to move beyond 720p. Roller and Frangcom say SBS looks like CB. SBS using Tridef looks horrible in dead space 2 compared to 720p and im noticing its a little blurrier in general. Maybe its Tridef? Or is it SBS? Maybe its Sony's scaling algorithms? Do i trust what someone says, which i usually don't do, or do i wait for some kind sole to [b]heave[/b] his [b]heavy[/b] camera [b]all the way[/b] up onto a stack of books and take some close up photos in different modes?
[/quote]
There's far more than just those 2, I've glanced through some of the threads "requesting" CB, SBS-half or 1080p/30 and its definitely more than just a few in those threads who think 720p FP looks worst than I'd expect from their reactions. Again, to me it doesn't make sense because sure, 720p on a 1080p matrix is non-optimal but it wouldn't elicit that kind of response if it looked the same as 720p FS imo.

I won't be able to tell the difference from a screenshot you post, because the screenshot you post is coming from your framebuffer, which is the same for everyone at that resolution regardless of output method. That's the same reason CB users can't just take a screenshot and show us exactly what they see and why Flugan/Flint needed to simulate it in a photo editor. Because additional processing occurs after the image leaves the framebuffer by the driver before its sent over the HDMI cable and then MORE processing occurs once the HDTV receives the image and displays it in L/R stereo output. The problem is we don't know exactly how the images are processed at those two points.

Let me ask you this. If you view a game in 2D at 1080p and 720p with 3D Vision completely disabled, do you see a big difference? Does 720p look bad or noticeably blurrier? Now take a look at 720p and 1080p pictures in 3D, they shouldn't be subject to framepacking. Make note of the image differences, and also relative to 2D. Now finally, try 1080p/24 3D and 720p/60 3D and compare again. Is the 720p better/worst relative to the other two tests?

As for decisions, have you considered taking a USB drive with some 3D photos into a big box store like Best Buy and testing out different TVs in 3D? You may be able to get a better idea of the different formats that way. If you had a laptop with 3DTV Play and HDMI, you might even be able to check games/movies and see apples-to-apples difference.
[quote name='Libertine' date='02 February 2012 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1328205487' post='1364240']

I don't see the extreme disdain for it, other than Roller. Frangcom didn't like it either, but then said his panel was applying sharpening by default, which highlighted the aliasing. The same thing happened to me.



My Metro screenshots in my sig look exactly the same to me in-game as they do when viewed using the Nvidia viewer. I assume they would look the same to you. Do they look bad to you on your monitor?



Im very confused over all this. So many different opinions.



I want to upgrade my display and i just saw a good demo of the HX929, [which looked amazing btw], but i want to move beyond 720p. Roller and Frangcom say SBS looks like CB. SBS using Tridef looks horrible in dead space 2 compared to 720p and im noticing its a little blurrier in general. Maybe its Tridef? Or is it SBS? Maybe its Sony's scaling algorithms? Do i trust what someone says, which i usually don't do, or do i wait for some kind sole to heave his heavy camera all the way up onto a stack of books and take some close up photos in different modes?



There's far more than just those 2, I've glanced through some of the threads "requesting" CB, SBS-half or 1080p/30 and its definitely more than just a few in those threads who think 720p FP looks worst than I'd expect from their reactions. Again, to me it doesn't make sense because sure, 720p on a 1080p matrix is non-optimal but it wouldn't elicit that kind of response if it looked the same as 720p FS imo.



I won't be able to tell the difference from a screenshot you post, because the screenshot you post is coming from your framebuffer, which is the same for everyone at that resolution regardless of output method. That's the same reason CB users can't just take a screenshot and show us exactly what they see and why Flugan/Flint needed to simulate it in a photo editor. Because additional processing occurs after the image leaves the framebuffer by the driver before its sent over the HDMI cable and then MORE processing occurs once the HDTV receives the image and displays it in L/R stereo output. The problem is we don't know exactly how the images are processed at those two points.



Let me ask you this. If you view a game in 2D at 1080p and 720p with 3D Vision completely disabled, do you see a big difference? Does 720p look bad or noticeably blurrier? Now take a look at 720p and 1080p pictures in 3D, they shouldn't be subject to framepacking. Make note of the image differences, and also relative to 2D. Now finally, try 1080p/24 3D and 720p/60 3D and compare again. Is the 720p better/worst relative to the other two tests?



As for decisions, have you considered taking a USB drive with some 3D photos into a big box store like Best Buy and testing out different TVs in 3D? You may be able to get a better idea of the different formats that way. If you had a laptop with 3DTV Play and HDMI, you might even be able to check games/movies and see apples-to-apples difference.

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Posted 02/03/2012 03:31 AM   
[font="Calibri"]Hi All[/font]



[font="Calibri"]I have been playing with video and 3d for a while but am new here. Although I have some interest in games my core focus is video work including managing the multi streams of 3d, so please excuse me if this description is more about 3d video that games. It’s long so get comfortable.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]Platform: win7 64, GTX 590, 24gig mem, few clusters of SSDs and disks etc., Acer 120hz screen run DVI, Samsung 7000 series run from mini usb on 590
(small note for those that shut off their page files – yes you can and it will all be fine <have done it a few times> but with mem management , disk caching system and operating system so intertwined I find my system run faster if I have a page file and place it on a sata3 ssd.)[/font]

[font="Calibri"]Here is how I think it all works - please correct.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]Terms I will use - again correct if u wish but this is more concept than individual values.

[/font]1. [font="Calibri"]Speed – the number of data units per sec. (frame rate)
[/font]2. [font="Calibri"]Data Unit: - the amount of data sent in each cycle: going to simplify here by using screen res. Eg 1920 by 1080 (an image)
[/font]3. [font="Calibri"]Compression/expansion – this is basically compressing the data so it is smaller during transmission so you can fit more and then expanding at other end. Unless specifically mentioned below I am usually talking about uncompressed data.
[/font]4. [font="Calibri"]Information: (stolen from physics) This is very simple it’s what information the data unit contains (the image). Data units can be compressed and expanded or turned into 3d in different ways sometimes information is lost some times it is retained. Examples:
[/font]a. [font="Calibri"]Compression/expansion – varies sometimes information is retained sometimes lost. Good luck working out which does which but obviously any form slows down your data flow causing synchronization issues and hence more space needed for cashing.
[/font]b. [font="Calibri"]3d conversion – again sometimes lost sometimes retained examples:
[/font] i. [font="Calibri"]Anaglyph – information is lost – no matter what you do with it you cannot get back to 2 individual streams – some color is lost when overwritten to create the two virtual streams - so information is lost.
[/font] ii. [font="Calibri"]HDMI 1.4 - 2 streams at 24 Hz and 1080p – Whether information is lost depends on the data and speed from the source. (The game app for u guys the video stream for me). If the available data is more than 1080p at 48hz information is lost unless fancy compression is used and I know of none at moment.[/font]
iii. [font="Calibri"]Compression: Side by Side, above below, checkerboard (don’t freak just keep reading), interleaved etc. All these methods take a duel data stream and compress it single stream data. Whether information is retained or not depends on that compression and decompression algorithm. Example: In side by side which does not compress at all other than lumping them together you would get better 3d on a 60hz line than you can get on HDMI 1.4 duel steam unless it uses compression which the default stuff we use doesn’t to my knowledge.[/font]<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[font="Calibri"]HW Connection types.[/font]
<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

1. · [font="Calibri"]Duel DVI – [/font][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface#Dual-link_DVI"][color="#0000ff"]http://en.wikipedia....e#Dual-link_DVI [/color][/url]

a. [font="Calibri"]Config summary:[/font]

i. [font="Calibri"]Speed: Has twin data lines that can each carry 60 hz or be combined into a single 120hz stream.[/font]

ii. [font="Calibri"]Data Unit: 1920/1080 or larger but must cards and screens top out here.[/font]

b. S[font="Calibri"]ummary: A technical interface designed to enable future functionality.[/font]

c. [font="Calibri"]Hence the wonderful 3d in pc displays as you have 2 full streams of 60hz to play around with.[/font]

2. [font="Calibri"]HDMI 1.4 - [/font][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4"][color="#0000ff"]http://en.wikipedia....DMI#Version_1.4 [/color][/url]

a. [font="Calibri"]Config summary:[/font]

i. [font="Calibri"]Speed up to 60hz but in 1.4 a back channel was introduce that allowed 2 by 24 Hz to be used (but this only provides a combined 48hz in total).[/font]

ii. [font="Calibri"]Data Unit: 1920/1080 or larger as above but I think the largest available unit is smaller than DVI (feel free to check).[/font]

b. [font="Calibri"]Summary: A marketing interface designed to provide version dependence in the devices that support it and regular changes to force device obsolescence. [/font]

c. [font="Calibri"]Hence the ****ty 3d by comparison you have less data units per sec to play with no matter what you do (but don’t worry you can buy something next year to fix it). We will talk about additional software limitations later.[/font]

d. [font="Calibri"]There is some sort next version of HDMI that includes 2 * 60hz channels but can’t find link now.[/font]<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[font="Calibri"]Software I use for this discussion:[/font]

1. [font="Calibri"]PowerDVD 11. A video display toot that has one VERY useful menu option. Once you feed it a multi stream file (eg MKV) you can chose the output method. Some of these are:[/font]

a. [font="Calibri"]Anaglyph – a horrible thing. Information loss.[/font]

b. [font="Calibri"]Micro polarized lcd - interleaved – no idea most likely information loss.[/font]

c. [font="Calibri"]HDMI 1.4 duel 24 hz – no information loss if input stream less that less than 48hz. To go higher than that requires compression which could cause information loss.[/font]

d. [font="Calibri"]NVidia 3d monitor 3d vision ready monitor (120hz) – this is the standard duel 60 NVidia standard – no data loss if input. I tried this once – lots of flashing and scary noises both TV and PC hung – powered down fast happily no damage. I think I tried to pumped 120hz of data down the HDMI duel channel causing overwrites and crash. (read conclusion for how this relates to rollermod)[/font]

e. [font="Calibri"]NVidia 3dVision – The driver and tools provided by NVidia except 3dtv Play. An excellent graphics, 3d, games and processing platform. Providing you a way to get around some of the HDMI built in obsolescence. [/font]

i. [font="Calibri"]3dtv Play – the “driver” that tries to connect this collection of TVs. As we all know it sux in many situations as any generalized driver often does. I am “lucky” that 3dTV does not have a parameter file for the 46’ D7000 so it has never worked correctly for me. It most likely a cheap internal or 3[sup]rd[/sup] party tool that can be used for the “marketing” function of we work with TVs. NVidia fears the unified TV platform – sadly it should fight it by using its lack of version obsolescence to increase its penetration into TVs but sadly it appears to be convinced that if it ignores it the TV companies and unified platforms like A and G will go away.[/font]
<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

[font="Calibri"]Rollermod.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]I am not entirely sure what rollermod does exactly (I would like to) but here is what it does in concept I think.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]It creates or modifies the drivers and/or driver setup to allow checkerboard 3d information to be pumped down any line (if it can handle it) at a speed of 60hz and a data size of 1080p. (This is all fine and allowed by standard). This is already more information than is possible on the 1.4 duel 24hz line.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]So now it depends on your TV, if your TV has the ability to take a 60hz 1080p checkerboard stream and turn it into 3d then you have the possibility of getting more information and hence BETTER 3d running on your TV BUT…[/font]

[font="Calibri"]How well this works It all depends on a HUGE number of factors – in random ones that do or don’t. [/font]

· [font="Calibri"]Funny screen resolutions – this is almost always your problem in game, pc or TV – pain in but to fix though but a bad installation or missing resolution set could cause this to happen.[/font]

· [font="Calibri"]Checkerboard 3d - how good is the compression on app and how good is expansion on TV. Roller is right this is a pseudo “standard” for 3dtv at moment .[/font]

· [font="Calibri"]Input stream data and speed – you have your game in 3d on your 120hz screen and the frame rate is less than 60hz then it don’t matter. If its higher that 60h its all dependant on how the game decides which frames it sends and this slows it down more.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]Summary.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]As a rule I do not download and run strange utilities unless I am convinced as to what they do so here is my summary.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]1.[/font] [font="Calibri"]You will never get at good 3d resolution on your TV as you get on your PC unless you find a TV with DVI and 120hz or the next version of HDMI comes out and u have to get a new TV (surprise surprise).[/font]

[font="Calibri"]2.[/font] [font="Calibri"]In concept duel stream is better than any compression including checkerboard but as checkerboard is this so called TV “standard” it would be a reasonable to expect a good algorithm. [/font]

[font="Calibri"]3.[/font] [font="Calibri"]It will allow better 3d than what is available today to a TV from NVidia card – there is just more information available so a better pair of images can be built. 60hz at 1080p is just better than the 48hz of 2 24hz streams at 1080p. [/font]

[font="Calibri"]4.[/font] [font="Calibri"]Will it blow up my PC or TV. To me this is the main worry as there are no HW checks on these boards, or TVs they just expect u to stick to the standard. Driving too much data down cables can cause issues. If I understand this correctly this is covered by limiting the driver to 60 hz which is fine I hope as the board can hapily send 120 hz down that channel.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]5.[/font] [font="Calibri"]Does it contain a virus payload – seems unlikely this is some giant plot to load something that he will use later to do something nasty – he been here too long – but mistakes do happen in creating software. So I will scan it before and after install if i use it.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]6.[/font] [font="Calibri"]Can I uninstall it if I don’t like it or a proper version of 3dtv comes out (unlikely) – will take a restore point and a backup before my first testing and then just hope.[/font]



[font="Calibri"]Final note: By modifying my TV as described by roller and modifying powerDVD 11 to run checkerboard I am now watching one of my Vids at 60hz 1080p rather than duel 24hz and it is better but does seem a little blury – hard to tell – will set up a duel channel to TV as this is only 60hz and can use any DVI port and DVI HDMI conversion plug – will update as I compare – just so we are all sure what I am testing I am comparing the compression algorithm of powerdvd and decompression of Samsung not anything to do with rolermod.[/font]

[font="Calibri"]Sorry for the huge message but just wanted to write it all down as part of my own review before I consider installing rollermod - comments appreciated.[/font]
Hi All







I have been playing with video and 3d for a while but am new here. Although I have some interest in games my core focus is video work including managing the multi streams of 3d, so please excuse me if this description is more about 3d video that games. It’s long so get comfortable.



Platform: win7 64, GTX 590, 24gig mem, few clusters of SSDs and disks etc., Acer 120hz screen run DVI, Samsung 7000 series run from mini usb on 590

(small note for those that shut off their page files – yes you can and it will all be fine <have done it a few times> but with mem management , disk caching system and operating system so intertwined I find my system run faster if I have a page file and place it on a sata3 ssd.)



Here is how I think it all works - please correct.



Terms I will use - again correct if u wish but this is more concept than individual values.



1. Speed – the number of data units per sec. (frame rate)

2. Data Unit: - the amount of data sent in each cycle: going to simplify here by using screen res. Eg 1920 by 1080 (an image)

3. Compression/expansion – this is basically compressing the data so it is smaller during transmission so you can fit more and then expanding at other end. Unless specifically mentioned below I am usually talking about uncompressed data.

4. Information: (stolen from physics) This is very simple it’s what information the data unit contains (the image). Data units can be compressed and expanded or turned into 3d in different ways sometimes information is lost some times it is retained. Examples:

a. Compression/expansion – varies sometimes information is retained sometimes lost. Good luck working out which does which but obviously any form slows down your data flow causing synchronization issues and hence more space needed for cashing.

b. 3d conversion – again sometimes lost sometimes retained examples:

i. Anaglyph – information is lost – no matter what you do with it you cannot get back to 2 individual streams – some color is lost when overwritten to create the two virtual streams - so information is lost.

ii. HDMI 1.4 - 2 streams at 24 Hz and 1080p – Whether information is lost depends on the data and speed from the source. (The game app for u guys the video stream for me). If the available data is more than 1080p at 48hz information is lost unless fancy compression is used and I know of none at moment.

iii. Compression: Side by Side, above below, checkerboard (don’t freak just keep reading), interleaved etc. All these methods take a duel data stream and compress it single stream data. Whether information is retained or not depends on that compression and decompression algorithm. Example: In side by side which does not compress at all other than lumping them together you would get better 3d on a 60hz line than you can get on HDMI 1.4 duel steam unless it uses compression which the default stuff we use doesn’t to my knowledge.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">



HW Connection types.

<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">



1. · Duel DVI – http://en.wikipedia....e#Dual-link_DVI



a. Config summary:



i. Speed: Has twin data lines that can each carry 60 hz or be combined into a single 120hz stream.



ii. Data Unit: 1920/1080 or larger but must cards and screens top out here.



b. Summary: A technical interface designed to enable future functionality.



c. Hence the wonderful 3d in pc displays as you have 2 full streams of 60hz to play around with.



2. HDMI 1.4 - http://en.wikipedia....DMI#Version_1.4



a. Config summary:



i. Speed up to 60hz but in 1.4 a back channel was introduce that allowed 2 by 24 Hz to be used (but this only provides a combined 48hz in total).



ii. Data Unit: 1920/1080 or larger as above but I think the largest available unit is smaller than DVI (feel free to check).



b. Summary: A marketing interface designed to provide version dependence in the devices that support it and regular changes to force device obsolescence.



c. Hence the ****ty 3d by comparison you have less data units per sec to play with no matter what you do (but don’t worry you can buy something next year to fix it). We will talk about additional software limitations later.



d. There is some sort next version of HDMI that includes 2 * 60hz channels but can’t find link now.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">



Software I use for this discussion:



1. PowerDVD 11. A video display toot that has one VERY useful menu option. Once you feed it a multi stream file (eg MKV) you can chose the output method. Some of these are:



a. Anaglyph – a horrible thing. Information loss.



b. Micro polarized lcd - interleaved – no idea most likely information loss.



c. HDMI 1.4 duel 24 hz – no information loss if input stream less that less than 48hz. To go higher than that requires compression which could cause information loss.



d. NVidia 3d monitor 3d vision ready monitor (120hz) – this is the standard duel 60 NVidia standard – no data loss if input. I tried this once – lots of flashing and scary noises both TV and PC hung – powered down fast happily no damage. I think I tried to pumped 120hz of data down the HDMI duel channel causing overwrites and crash. (read conclusion for how this relates to rollermod)



e. NVidia 3dVision – The driver and tools provided by NVidia except 3dtv Play. An excellent graphics, 3d, games and processing platform. Providing you a way to get around some of the HDMI built in obsolescence.



i. 3dtv Play – the “driver” that tries to connect this collection of TVs. As we all know it sux in many situations as any generalized driver often does. I am “lucky” that 3dTV does not have a parameter file for the 46’ D7000 so it has never worked correctly for me. It most likely a cheap internal or 3[sup]rd[/sup] party tool that can be used for the “marketing” function of we work with TVs. NVidia fears the unified TV platform – sadly it should fight it by using its lack of version obsolescence to increase its penetration into TVs but sadly it appears to be convinced that if it ignores it the TV companies and unified platforms like A and G will go away.

<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">



Rollermod.



I am not entirely sure what rollermod does exactly (I would like to) but here is what it does in concept I think.



It creates or modifies the drivers and/or driver setup to allow checkerboard 3d information to be pumped down any line (if it can handle it) at a speed of 60hz and a data size of 1080p. (This is all fine and allowed by standard). This is already more information than is possible on the 1.4 duel 24hz line.



So now it depends on your TV, if your TV has the ability to take a 60hz 1080p checkerboard stream and turn it into 3d then you have the possibility of getting more information and hence BETTER 3d running on your TV BUT…



How well this works It all depends on a HUGE number of factors – in random ones that do or don’t.



· Funny screen resolutions – this is almost always your problem in game, pc or TV – pain in but to fix though but a bad installation or missing resolution set could cause this to happen.



· Checkerboard 3d - how good is the compression on app and how good is expansion on TV. Roller is right this is a pseudo “standard” for 3dtv at moment .



· Input stream data and speed – you have your game in 3d on your 120hz screen and the frame rate is less than 60hz then it don’t matter. If its higher that 60h its all dependant on how the game decides which frames it sends and this slows it down more.



Summary.



As a rule I do not download and run strange utilities unless I am convinced as to what they do so here is my summary.



1. You will never get at good 3d resolution on your TV as you get on your PC unless you find a TV with DVI and 120hz or the next version of HDMI comes out and u have to get a new TV (surprise surprise).



2. In concept duel stream is better than any compression including checkerboard but as checkerboard is this so called TV “standard” it would be a reasonable to expect a good algorithm.



3. It will allow better 3d than what is available today to a TV from NVidia card – there is just more information available so a better pair of images can be built. 60hz at 1080p is just better than the 48hz of 2 24hz streams at 1080p.



4. Will it blow up my PC or TV. To me this is the main worry as there are no HW checks on these boards, or TVs they just expect u to stick to the standard. Driving too much data down cables can cause issues. If I understand this correctly this is covered by limiting the driver to 60 hz which is fine I hope as the board can hapily send 120 hz down that channel.



5. Does it contain a virus payload – seems unlikely this is some giant plot to load something that he will use later to do something nasty – he been here too long – but mistakes do happen in creating software. So I will scan it before and after install if i use it.



6. Can I uninstall it if I don’t like it or a proper version of 3dtv comes out (unlikely) – will take a restore point and a backup before my first testing and then just hope.







Final note: By modifying my TV as described by roller and modifying powerDVD 11 to run checkerboard I am now watching one of my Vids at 60hz 1080p rather than duel 24hz and it is better but does seem a little blury – hard to tell – will set up a duel channel to TV as this is only 60hz and can use any DVI port and DVI HDMI conversion plug – will update as I compare – just so we are all sure what I am testing I am comparing the compression algorithm of powerdvd and decompression of Samsung not anything to do with rolermod.



Sorry for the huge message but just wanted to write it all down as part of my own review before I consider installing rollermod - comments appreciated.

Posted 02/03/2012 03:40 AM   
[quote name='Flugan' date='02 February 2012 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1328211818' post='1364278']I would expect any photo of 3D through shutter glasses to be very timing sensitive and even if you can get a good one it's not really trivial to recreate the colors of each pixel from the sub-elements[/quote]Where is the problem when shooting at a still image? With a tripod or a stack of books you can take time as much as you want for shooting.

This pictures are a quick try on my 23-inch screen without tripod. It should be no problem to take pictures from a screen thats more as double in size /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> .
You clearly see in the first picture my CB-try with the black pixels.
[url=http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2098/img3606x.jpg][img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2098/img3606x.th.jpg[/img][/url]
The second one shows my cheap interpolation try - with the teeth.
[url=http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5389/img3607x.jpg][img]http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5389/img3607x.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Now it would be fine if somebody sacrifices himself to shoot some photos from a CB-3DTV with the 1080p-JPS from my earlier post. /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />
[quote name='Flugan' date='02 February 2012 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1328211818' post='1364278']I would expect any photo of 3D through shutter glasses to be very timing sensitive and even if you can get a good one it's not really trivial to recreate the colors of each pixel from the sub-elementsWhere is the problem when shooting at a still image? With a tripod or a stack of books you can take time as much as you want for shooting.



This pictures are a quick try on my 23-inch screen without tripod. It should be no problem to take pictures from a screen thats more as double in size /wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> .

You clearly see in the first picture my CB-try with the black pixels.

Image

The second one shows my cheap interpolation try - with the teeth.

Image



Now it would be fine if somebody sacrifices himself to shoot some photos from a CB-3DTV with the 1080p-JPS from my earlier post. /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />

Desktop-PC

i7 870 @ 3.8GHz + MSI GTX1070 Gaming X + 16GB RAM + Win10 64Bit Home + AW2310+3D-Vision

Posted 02/03/2012 10:48 AM   
Flint, took your CB image (actually the 1080p jps), and applied my averaging algorithm using the four nearest pixels.

http://www.mediafire.com/i/?5ma8llwd8d1f1tz

I find it a lot less blocky than your method and does indeed wonder how you recreated the picture after CB reduction.
Flint, took your CB image (actually the 1080p jps), and applied my averaging algorithm using the four nearest pixels.



http://www.mediafire.com/i/?5ma8llwd8d1f1tz



I find it a lot less blocky than your method and does indeed wonder how you recreated the picture after CB reduction.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

Posted 02/03/2012 04:40 PM   
@Chiz: I don't see why the video card would do anything to the image before sending it to the TV when the resolution of the game is set to 720p. For frame packing 3D, the images are said to be laid out on on a 2560 x 720 container and sent through to the TV. On top of that, game mode does 4:4:4, which i've tested. The image is certainly scaled up by the display obviously, but the main job of this TV is to display 720p content from a TV signal and its made by Sony, so i would think there algorithms are top notch.

If i cold get AA going with 3DTV Play, i'd probably be a happy camper and go for an Sony H929, but as it stands, i've got 5 games on my plate that go blurry when in-game AA is applied and now im noticing that Tridef is blurry for some reason which i've got to figure out...

As for taking a usb disk to preview photos on TVs in a store. I've tried it with jpg images and they don't go into SBS mode while viewing pictures.
@Chiz: I don't see why the video card would do anything to the image before sending it to the TV when the resolution of the game is set to 720p. For frame packing 3D, the images are said to be laid out on on a 2560 x 720 container and sent through to the TV. On top of that, game mode does 4:4:4, which i've tested. The image is certainly scaled up by the display obviously, but the main job of this TV is to display 720p content from a TV signal and its made by Sony, so i would think there algorithms are top notch.



If i cold get AA going with 3DTV Play, i'd probably be a happy camper and go for an Sony H929, but as it stands, i've got 5 games on my plate that go blurry when in-game AA is applied and now im noticing that Tridef is blurry for some reason which i've got to figure out...



As for taking a usb disk to preview photos on TVs in a store. I've tried it with jpg images and they don't go into SBS mode while viewing pictures.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 02/03/2012 07:38 PM   
@Libertine

Have you tried applying a very sharp static image at 1080p to see if there is any bluring inherent´to the TV or if it only happens with AA enabled.

AA is a kind of bluring by design as it makes sharp aliased edges smooth.
@Libertine



Have you tried applying a very sharp static image at 1080p to see if there is any bluring inherent´to the TV or if it only happens with AA enabled.



AA is a kind of bluring by design as it makes sharp aliased edges smooth.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

Posted 02/03/2012 08:29 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='03 February 2012 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1328297935' post='1364808']
@Chiz: I don't see why the video card would do anything to the image before sending it to the TV when the resolution of the game is set to 720p. For frame packing 3D, the images are said to be laid out on on a 2560 x 720 container and sent through to the TV. On top of that, game mode does 4:4:4, which i've tested. The image is certainly scaled up by the display obviously, but the main job of this TV is to display 720p content from a TV signal and its made by Sony, so i would think there algorithms are top notch.

If i cold get AA going with 3DTV Play, i'd probably be a happy camper and go for an Sony H929, but as it stands, i've got 5 games on my plate that go blurry when in-game AA is applied and now im noticing that Tridef is blurry for some reason which i've got to figure out...

As for taking a usb disk to preview photos on TVs in a store. I've tried it with jpg images and they don't go into SBS mode while viewing pictures.
[/quote]
I've already covered most of this and why I don't think 3DTV Play is sending a 2560x720p double-wide 2x1280x720 frame here: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=221494&view=findpost&p=1362253

This is why I asked if you could test 2D 720p vs. 2D 1080p with 3D Vision completely disabled and check the image quality against 3D 720p FP and 3D 1080p/24 FS to see if there was consistent image degradation, or not.
[quote name='Libertine' date='03 February 2012 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1328297935' post='1364808']

@Chiz: I don't see why the video card would do anything to the image before sending it to the TV when the resolution of the game is set to 720p. For frame packing 3D, the images are said to be laid out on on a 2560 x 720 container and sent through to the TV. On top of that, game mode does 4:4:4, which i've tested. The image is certainly scaled up by the display obviously, but the main job of this TV is to display 720p content from a TV signal and its made by Sony, so i would think there algorithms are top notch.



If i cold get AA going with 3DTV Play, i'd probably be a happy camper and go for an Sony H929, but as it stands, i've got 5 games on my plate that go blurry when in-game AA is applied and now im noticing that Tridef is blurry for some reason which i've got to figure out...



As for taking a usb disk to preview photos on TVs in a store. I've tried it with jpg images and they don't go into SBS mode while viewing pictures.



I've already covered most of this and why I don't think 3DTV Play is sending a 2560x720p double-wide 2x1280x720 frame here: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=221494&view=findpost&p=1362253



This is why I asked if you could test 2D 720p vs. 2D 1080p with 3D Vision completely disabled and check the image quality against 3D 720p FP and 3D 1080p/24 FS to see if there was consistent image degradation, or not.

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
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Posted 02/03/2012 08:43 PM   
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