I've been playing around with 3D Vision recently and discovered a peculiarity I'm so far unable to find any way of dealing with. Essentially, as my subject suggests, I believe it to be driver-level crosstalk, but there's a good chance it only affects passive (polarised) 3D screens.
At this point I should probably mention that I'm using an EDID override and registry modification to get 3D Vision to work at all. While this might seem like a probable cause for the issue I'm not inclined to believe that as some titles work perfectly (eg Batman AA and AC), and [u]some[/u]of the affected titles can be made to work perfectly. It would be nice if I didn't have to jump through such hoops since they're clearly unnecessary but that ball squarely in NVidia's court.
Anyway, the three titles that most readily exhibit the issue are The Settlers II (10th Anniversary edition), GTA IV - TBoGT, and World of Warcraft. People might be surprised to see the latter in the list but I'll explain more later. Essentially the resulting output looks as though there's some pretty nasty crosstalk going on at almost all times, making it rather unusable.
World of Warcraft, however, can be made to work. I would normally use Windowed (Fullscreen) mode to play, which is when the problem occurs, but switching to standard Fullscreen fixes the issue completely. The other two titles, however, have no such options and will continue to show problems regardless of what I do. It should be noted that all three work perfectly through TriDef 3D, albeit with much lower performance (especially in the case of WoW).
Is there a solution to this, or is it his a case of depreciated support (ie Anything that isn't 120Hz w/ 3D Vision kit) simply causing irreparable problems?
I've been playing around with 3D Vision recently and discovered a peculiarity I'm so far unable to find any way of dealing with. Essentially, as my subject suggests, I believe it to be driver-level crosstalk, but there's a good chance it only affects passive (polarised) 3D screens.
At this point I should probably mention that I'm using an EDID override and registry modification to get 3D Vision to work at all. While this might seem like a probable cause for the issue I'm not inclined to believe that as some titles work perfectly (eg Batman AA and AC), and someof the affected titles can be made to work perfectly. It would be nice if I didn't have to jump through such hoops since they're clearly unnecessary but that ball squarely in NVidia's court.
Anyway, the three titles that most readily exhibit the issue are The Settlers II (10th Anniversary edition), GTA IV - TBoGT, and World of Warcraft. People might be surprised to see the latter in the list but I'll explain more later. Essentially the resulting output looks as though there's some pretty nasty crosstalk going on at almost all times, making it rather unusable.
World of Warcraft, however, can be made to work. I would normally use Windowed (Fullscreen) mode to play, which is when the problem occurs, but switching to standard Fullscreen fixes the issue completely. The other two titles, however, have no such options and will continue to show problems regardless of what I do. It should be noted that all three work perfectly through TriDef 3D, albeit with much lower performance (especially in the case of WoW).
Is there a solution to this, or is it his a case of depreciated support (ie Anything that isn't 120Hz w/ 3D Vision kit) simply causing irreparable problems?
Well, I've been playing around with this some more. I've found a cause but it's puzzling as to both why it causes problems in situations where it shouldn't have any effect, and also why it's causing problems away from Fullscreen mode.
Turns out it's forward antialiasing but only if any form of supersampling is active. Doesn't matter if it's just TrSSAA or full-on SGSSAA - both of them produce the same issue in the same circumstances, even at just 2x. What makes this particularly weird is that none of these AA techniques have any effect on the in-game results from GTA IV or Settlers II, yet enabling them will cause the problem.
TrMSAA seems to work just fine, however.
WoW makes this even more interesting because SSAA only needs to be disabled when running Windowed(Fullscreen) mode. Any AA setting works fine in true fullscreen.
Well, I've been playing around with this some more. I've found a cause but it's puzzling as to both why it causes problems in situations where it shouldn't have any effect, and also why it's causing problems away from Fullscreen mode.
Turns out it's forward antialiasing but only if any form of supersampling is active. Doesn't matter if it's just TrSSAA or full-on SGSSAA - both of them produce the same issue in the same circumstances, even at just 2x. What makes this particularly weird is that none of these AA techniques have any effect on the in-game results from GTA IV or Settlers II, yet enabling them will cause the problem.
TrMSAA seems to work just fine, however.
WoW makes this even more interesting because SSAA only needs to be disabled when running Windowed(Fullscreen) mode. Any AA setting works fine in true fullscreen.
Please keep sharing your findings. I don't think any of the regulars here are using passive displays, but this could be useful to people who come searching for help later.
Please keep sharing your findings. I don't think any of the regulars here are using passive displays, but this could be useful to people who come searching for help later.
Have you tried taking any screenshots of the issue? (Alt+F1) I'm curious if you can actually capture it, I had an entirely different issue with Signal Ops but the screenshots I tried to take of it wound up looking perfectly fine.
Have you tried taking any screenshots of the issue? (Alt+F1) I'm curious if you can actually capture it, I had an entirely different issue with Signal Ops but the screenshots I tried to take of it wound up looking perfectly fine.
I have a passive display on my Fuji 3D laptop and while playing in windowed mode might seem like I'd get better frame rates (smaller resolution) and better depth the amount of depth and separation you can get is still very minimal compared to active displays. The placement of the window on the screen can also effect L-R switching. In some titles I've found that depth settings between 7-13 seems to be a good compromise between having enough 3D effect to notice it and not to much to have distracting ghosting.
I have a passive display on my Fuji 3D laptop and while playing in windowed mode might seem like I'd get better frame rates (smaller resolution) and better depth the amount of depth and separation you can get is still very minimal compared to active displays. The placement of the window on the screen can also effect L-R switching. In some titles I've found that depth settings between 7-13 seems to be a good compromise between having enough 3D effect to notice it and not to much to have distracting ghosting.
If they made an active 3D screen in either VA or, preferably, IPS with a built-in, validated emitter than I'd be all over that. As it stands there's only TN options and I'll pass having now been spoiled by the colour reproduction of an IPS. I realise IPS can't yet switch that fast, but I'd also rather a 100Hz option - 60Hz flicker over each eye, with 50Hz flicker from the room lighting, makes for an unpleasant experience (used to do exactly that with my old ASUS cards on a CRT).
BTW, I'm only running Windowed so I can task out more quickly. I still use the same resolution which means I'm actually slightly reducing my performance to do it.
[quote="TsaebehT"]Have you tried taking any screenshots of the issue? (Alt+F1) I'm curious if you can actually capture it, I had an entirely different issue with Signal Ops but the screenshots I tried to take of it wound up looking perfectly fine. [/quote]
I was able to screenshot it. More than that, viewing the screenshot at 100% also showed exactly the same problem, so it's not a post-filter causing it either. It also occurs regardless of the separation setting, just that it becomes harder to detect as you get closer to 0 (I normally use 32 and, when it works, have no problem with crosstalk outside of extremes).
The good news is I've been able to further isolate the issue. 100% of the time, SGSSAA causes it. This includes, as mentioned earlier, titles which are completely unaffected by antialiasing due to deferred rendering, and even older titles which cannot possibly be using incompatible shaders (eg Warcraft III). Of course a lot of more recent titles with deferred rendering automatically disable AA in their profiles, but if you manually allow it again than you'll see the problem (eg Dead Island).
WoW, on the other hand, represents a slightly different situation. SGSSAA causes it as expected, but TrSSAA also causes it only if you're running in DX11 mode (while windowed). If you run in DX9 mode it behaves just as anything else does (ie It works if you're not using SGSSAA).
I must have goofed on my earlier testing as it seems DX11 WoW is the only time I've so far found where TrSSAA causes it. If I find some more I'll report back.
If they made an active 3D screen in either VA or, preferably, IPS with a built-in, validated emitter than I'd be all over that. As it stands there's only TN options and I'll pass having now been spoiled by the colour reproduction of an IPS. I realise IPS can't yet switch that fast, but I'd also rather a 100Hz option - 60Hz flicker over each eye, with 50Hz flicker from the room lighting, makes for an unpleasant experience (used to do exactly that with my old ASUS cards on a CRT).
BTW, I'm only running Windowed so I can task out more quickly. I still use the same resolution which means I'm actually slightly reducing my performance to do it.
TsaebehT said:Have you tried taking any screenshots of the issue? (Alt+F1) I'm curious if you can actually capture it, I had an entirely different issue with Signal Ops but the screenshots I tried to take of it wound up looking perfectly fine.
I was able to screenshot it. More than that, viewing the screenshot at 100% also showed exactly the same problem, so it's not a post-filter causing it either. It also occurs regardless of the separation setting, just that it becomes harder to detect as you get closer to 0 (I normally use 32 and, when it works, have no problem with crosstalk outside of extremes).
The good news is I've been able to further isolate the issue. 100% of the time, SGSSAA causes it. This includes, as mentioned earlier, titles which are completely unaffected by antialiasing due to deferred rendering, and even older titles which cannot possibly be using incompatible shaders (eg Warcraft III). Of course a lot of more recent titles with deferred rendering automatically disable AA in their profiles, but if you manually allow it again than you'll see the problem (eg Dead Island).
WoW, on the other hand, represents a slightly different situation. SGSSAA causes it as expected, but TrSSAA also causes it only if you're running in DX11 mode (while windowed). If you run in DX9 mode it behaves just as anything else does (ie It works if you're not using SGSSAA).
I must have goofed on my earlier testing as it seems DX11 WoW is the only time I've so far found where TrSSAA causes it. If I find some more I'll report back.
You should upload some screenshots for us to check out, noting the problem areas in them, just to be absolutely certain it's not display related. You could either attach them to a post here (paperclip icon in the top right of one of your posts) or upload them to 3DVisionLive.com and post the link.
You should upload some screenshots for us to check out, noting the problem areas in them, just to be absolutely certain it's not display related. You could either attach them to a post here (paperclip icon in the top right of one of your posts) or upload them to 3DVisionLive.com and post the link.
So far I've only prepped one screenshot, which I submitted directly to NVidia a few days ago. But it pretty adequately demonstrates the issue. Note that this one was taken using a good old "Print Screen" and then paste into something else, and it's exactly what I was seeing.
If you ignore the obviously wrong convergence setting, take a look at the tip of the left-most spear, and the nearby leaves (especially the ones up the highest). It's only faint, but you can see the "bleeding" showing up on the wrong scanline. Of course, when you use the glasses what was a faint bleed becomes much more obvious
So far I've only prepped one screenshot, which I submitted directly to NVidia a few days ago. But it pretty adequately demonstrates the issue. Note that this one was taken using a good old "Print Screen" and then paste into something else, and it's exactly what I was seeing.
If you ignore the obviously wrong convergence setting, take a look at the tip of the left-most spear, and the nearby leaves (especially the ones up the highest). It's only faint, but you can see the "bleeding" showing up on the wrong scanline. Of course, when you use the glasses what was a faint bleed becomes much more obvious
Strange... I did. At least, I tried to - it's sitting there telling me "SCANNING... PLEASE WAIT" so I can only guess it's awaiting moderator approval, or the forums aren't compatible with PNGs.
I'll try attaching it to that post again and see what happens. Added a JPEG variant as well in case that works a little better.
Strange... I did. At least, I tried to - it's sitting there telling me "SCANNING... PLEASE WAIT" so I can only guess it's awaiting moderator approval, or the forums aren't compatible with PNGs.
I'll try attaching it to that post again and see what happens. Added a JPEG variant as well in case that works a little better.
[s]I don't have any tools to do it, but I'm sure such things exist. Worst case I could probably manually separate it into two images but that would be a pain in the butt.
Even so, if you check the areas I mentioned you can see the ghosting even with the interlacing.[/s]
Correction - I do have the tools. If they decide to work, two PNGs should be shortly attached to this post! PaintShop Pro has a deinterlace filter, apparently, so I just used the odd and even field variants. It appears to apply some kind of interpolation filter to it as well rather than simply doubling each scanline, but the issue is still pretty immediately obvious.
Gah... the heck is wrong with attachments on this forum? Almost seems random as to which attachments work or not.
Meh - screw it. If the attachments ever work they work, but in the meantime there's alternatives.
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Evenfields_zps22f822ac.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Oddfields_zps2fb94234.png.html
I don't have any tools to do it, but I'm sure such things exist. Worst case I could probably manually separate it into two images but that would be a pain in the butt.
Even so, if you check the areas I mentioned you can see the ghosting even with the interlacing.
Correction - I do have the tools. If they decide to work, two PNGs should be shortly attached to this post! PaintShop Pro has a deinterlace filter, apparently, so I just used the odd and even field variants. It appears to apply some kind of interpolation filter to it as well rather than simply doubling each scanline, but the issue is still pretty immediately obvious.
Gah... the heck is wrong with attachments on this forum? Almost seems random as to which attachments work or not.
If I erase ever other row in Gimp there clearly is slight crosstalk in that image (Example.png) but I'd still like to see a source image, a 3D screenshot, you can take one in-game with Alt+F1. I'm just not sure how effective using 'Print Screen' is at getting a screenshot, it looks like it's of both the L and R channels combined which could cause problems in itself.
Best bet would be to upload a PNS, but you can't do that here ... only on 3DVisionLive.com. You could use StereoPhotoMaker http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ to convert it ... Or you could rename it to *.PNG, convert it to JPG with PS, and then rename it to *.JPS ... Or you could just upload it to something like Dropbox and share the link.
[img]https://photos-2.dropbox.com/t/0/AAChUIGwiPrlE7cPpFpXtMJwaYoCHkRNO6kFYYV3MT4BWw/12/228635462/png/1024x768/3/1386086400/0/2/Example.png/529Le92ODpUSezouKOXqYKuVmXs6tE1OWZO6ckUWOiM[/img]
If I erase ever other row in Gimp there clearly is slight crosstalk in that image (Example.png) but I'd still like to see a source image, a 3D screenshot, you can take one in-game with Alt+F1. I'm just not sure how effective using 'Print Screen' is at getting a screenshot, it looks like it's of both the L and R channels combined which could cause problems in itself.
Best bet would be to upload a PNS, but you can't do that here ... only on 3DVisionLive.com. You could use StereoPhotoMaker http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ to convert it ... Or you could rename it to *.PNG, convert it to JPG with PS, and then rename it to *.JPS ... Or you could just upload it to something like Dropbox and share the link.
What I see [u]is[/u] left and right combined, just as the screenshot suggests. Passive 3D doesn't really have much choice - just whether it's horizontal or vertical interlacing, and which eye is the even and which the odd fields. Polarised glasses handle the rest, just like at the movies (in fact, I'm using some Real D glasses at present.
Those merged screenshots are pretty close to the actual results, though. It's actually less painful on the brain when you're only looking at one at a time.
The odd thing is, using Alt+F1 to get a screenshot doesn't do anything - not even a pause, no matter what game or settings I try. Checking the registry suggests that should still be the right key combination (it's set to 0470h) so I can only speculate that the "proper" method requires active 3D to work.
That said, for comparison's sake, here's a trio of shots which show how it should look on that same scene:
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Working_zps33685893.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Workingeven_zpse8b4945f.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Workingodd_zpsd4dd1987.png.html
Same absolutely everything for that shot, except instead of DX11 and SGSSAA it's using DX9 and TrSSAA.
I should perhaps mention that I tried resetting the interlacing patterns, just in case it was off by a row by being reversed. All it did was reverse the "eyes" while retaining all that crosstalk.
What I see is left and right combined, just as the screenshot suggests. Passive 3D doesn't really have much choice - just whether it's horizontal or vertical interlacing, and which eye is the even and which the odd fields. Polarised glasses handle the rest, just like at the movies (in fact, I'm using some Real D glasses at present.
Those merged screenshots are pretty close to the actual results, though. It's actually less painful on the brain when you're only looking at one at a time.
The odd thing is, using Alt+F1 to get a screenshot doesn't do anything - not even a pause, no matter what game or settings I try. Checking the registry suggests that should still be the right key combination (it's set to 0470h) so I can only speculate that the "proper" method requires active 3D to work.
Same absolutely everything for that shot, except instead of DX11 and SGSSAA it's using DX9 and TrSSAA.
I should perhaps mention that I tried resetting the interlacing patterns, just in case it was off by a row by being reversed. All it did was reverse the "eyes" while retaining all that crosstalk.
At this point I should probably mention that I'm using an EDID override and registry modification to get 3D Vision to work at all. While this might seem like a probable cause for the issue I'm not inclined to believe that as some titles work perfectly (eg Batman AA and AC), and someof the affected titles can be made to work perfectly. It would be nice if I didn't have to jump through such hoops since they're clearly unnecessary but that ball squarely in NVidia's court.
Anyway, the three titles that most readily exhibit the issue are The Settlers II (10th Anniversary edition), GTA IV - TBoGT, and World of Warcraft. People might be surprised to see the latter in the list but I'll explain more later. Essentially the resulting output looks as though there's some pretty nasty crosstalk going on at almost all times, making it rather unusable.
World of Warcraft, however, can be made to work. I would normally use Windowed (Fullscreen) mode to play, which is when the problem occurs, but switching to standard Fullscreen fixes the issue completely. The other two titles, however, have no such options and will continue to show problems regardless of what I do. It should be noted that all three work perfectly through TriDef 3D, albeit with much lower performance (especially in the case of WoW).
Is there a solution to this, or is it his a case of depreciated support (ie Anything that isn't 120Hz w/ 3D Vision kit) simply causing irreparable problems?
Turns out it's forward antialiasing but only if any form of supersampling is active. Doesn't matter if it's just TrSSAA or full-on SGSSAA - both of them produce the same issue in the same circumstances, even at just 2x. What makes this particularly weird is that none of these AA techniques have any effect on the in-game results from GTA IV or Settlers II, yet enabling them will cause the problem.
TrMSAA seems to work just fine, however.
WoW makes this even more interesting because SSAA only needs to be disabled when running Windowed(Fullscreen) mode. Any AA setting works fine in true fullscreen.
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
i7-2600K-4.5Ghz/Corsair H100i/8GB/GTX780SC-SLI/Win7-64/1200W-PSU/Samsung 840-500GB SSD/Coolermaster-Tower/Benq 1080ST @ 100"
BTW, I'm only running Windowed so I can task out more quickly. I still use the same resolution which means I'm actually slightly reducing my performance to do it.
I was able to screenshot it. More than that, viewing the screenshot at 100% also showed exactly the same problem, so it's not a post-filter causing it either. It also occurs regardless of the separation setting, just that it becomes harder to detect as you get closer to 0 (I normally use 32 and, when it works, have no problem with crosstalk outside of extremes).
The good news is I've been able to further isolate the issue. 100% of the time, SGSSAA causes it. This includes, as mentioned earlier, titles which are completely unaffected by antialiasing due to deferred rendering, and even older titles which cannot possibly be using incompatible shaders (eg Warcraft III). Of course a lot of more recent titles with deferred rendering automatically disable AA in their profiles, but if you manually allow it again than you'll see the problem (eg Dead Island).
WoW, on the other hand, represents a slightly different situation. SGSSAA causes it as expected, but TrSSAA also causes it only if you're running in DX11 mode (while windowed). If you run in DX9 mode it behaves just as anything else does (ie It works if you're not using SGSSAA).
I must have goofed on my earlier testing as it seems DX11 WoW is the only time I've so far found where TrSSAA causes it. If I find some more I'll report back.
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
If you ignore the obviously wrong convergence setting, take a look at the tip of the left-most spear, and the nearby leaves (especially the ones up the highest). It's only faint, but you can see the "bleeding" showing up on the wrong scanline. Of course, when you use the glasses what was a faint bleed becomes much more obvious
I'll try attaching it to that post again and see what happens. Added a JPEG variant as well in case that works a little better.
I don't have any tools to do it, but I'm sure such things exist. Worst case I could probably manually separate it into two images but that would be a pain in the butt.
Even so, if you check the areas I mentioned you can see the ghosting even with the interlacing.
Correction - I do have the tools. If they decide to work, two PNGs should be shortly attached to this post! PaintShop Pro has a deinterlace filter, apparently, so I just used the odd and even field variants. It appears to apply some kind of interpolation filter to it as well rather than simply doubling each scanline, but the issue is still pretty immediately obvious.
Gah... the heck is wrong with attachments on this forum? Almost seems random as to which attachments work or not.
Meh - screw it. If the attachments ever work they work, but in the meantime there's alternatives.
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Evenfields_zps22f822ac.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Oddfields_zps2fb94234.png.html
Best bet would be to upload a PNS, but you can't do that here ... only on 3DVisionLive.com. You could use StereoPhotoMaker http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ to convert it ... Or you could rename it to *.PNG, convert it to JPG with PS, and then rename it to *.JPS ... Or you could just upload it to something like Dropbox and share the link.
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
Those merged screenshots are pretty close to the actual results, though. It's actually less painful on the brain when you're only looking at one at a time.
The odd thing is, using Alt+F1 to get a screenshot doesn't do anything - not even a pause, no matter what game or settings I try. Checking the registry suggests that should still be the right key combination (it's set to 0470h) so I can only speculate that the "proper" method requires active 3D to work.
That said, for comparison's sake, here's a trio of shots which show how it should look on that same scene:
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Working_zps33685893.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Workingeven_zpse8b4945f.png.html
http://s204.photobucket.com/user/Lord_Thalyn/media/NVidia/Workingodd_zpsd4dd1987.png.html
Same absolutely everything for that shot, except instead of DX11 and SGSSAA it's using DX9 and TrSSAA.
I should perhaps mention that I tried resetting the interlacing patterns, just in case it was off by a row by being reversed. All it did was reverse the "eyes" while retaining all that crosstalk.