Enabling 3d Causes 70-85% FPS drop in certain games?
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#61
Posted 10/06/2016 10:58 PM   
[quote="J0hnnieW4lker"]@ D-Man11 Thank you for the tip. I turned on custom focus and adjusted the focus settings just like convergence in 3D Vision. it works great now on AC2! 60fps beautiful in 3D just like 3D Vision! I am definitely buying a license for tridef as it runs better in my pc.[/quote] Just a heads up on TriDef there- you are nearly certain to be running in their version of Compatibility Mode (Power3D), which is fake-3D. It's not a surprise the fake-3D is not as demanding, because it only draws one eye, not two. Other options include SuperDepth and CM itself using different profiles.
J0hnnieW4lker said:@ D-Man11

Thank you for the tip. I turned on custom focus and adjusted the focus settings just like convergence in 3D Vision. it works great now on AC2! 60fps beautiful in 3D just like 3D Vision! I am definitely buying a license for tridef as it runs better in my pc.

Just a heads up on TriDef there- you are nearly certain to be running in their version of Compatibility Mode (Power3D), which is fake-3D. It's not a surprise the fake-3D is not as demanding, because it only draws one eye, not two. Other options include SuperDepth and CM itself using different profiles.

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#62
Posted 10/07/2016 01:11 AM   
[quote="bo3b"][quote="J0hnnieW4lker"]@ D-Man11 Thank you for the tip. I turned on custom focus and adjusted the focus settings just like convergence in 3D Vision. it works great now on AC2! 60fps beautiful in 3D just like 3D Vision! I am definitely buying a license for tridef as it runs better in my pc.[/quote] Just a heads up on TriDef there- you are nearly certain to be running in their version of Compatibility Mode (Power3D), which is fake-3D. It's not a surprise the fake-3D is not as demanding, because it only draws one eye, not two. Other options include SuperDepth and CM itself using different profiles.[/quote] No mate, i would know if it was fake 3D! (Power3D is off) As I said the quality of the 3D is the same or better to 3D Vision, as I can tweak more options and get good convergence. For instance in Assassins Creed 2 I played almost the entire game in 3D Vision with constant fps drops to 30/25, mainly in the city while running it would be avarage 30fps. In tridef i am getting 60 fps with very very few drops to 45 and yes this is real geometric 3D. Mafia 2 also better result, 60fps too
bo3b said:
J0hnnieW4lker said:@ D-Man11

Thank you for the tip. I turned on custom focus and adjusted the focus settings just like convergence in 3D Vision. it works great now on AC2! 60fps beautiful in 3D just like 3D Vision! I am definitely buying a license for tridef as it runs better in my pc.

Just a heads up on TriDef there- you are nearly certain to be running in their version of Compatibility Mode (Power3D), which is fake-3D. It's not a surprise the fake-3D is not as demanding, because it only draws one eye, not two. Other options include SuperDepth and CM itself using different profiles.


No mate, i would know if it was fake 3D! (Power3D is off) As I said the quality of the 3D is the same or better to 3D Vision, as I can tweak more options and get good convergence.
For instance in Assassins Creed 2 I played almost the entire game in 3D Vision with constant fps drops to 30/25, mainly in the city while running it would be avarage 30fps.
In tridef i am getting 60 fps with very very few drops to 45 and yes this is real geometric 3D.
Mafia 2 also better result, 60fps too

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#63
Posted 10/07/2016 02:19 AM   
It is strange that you have better performance in Tridef. I never found one game with better performance in Tridef than Nvidia.
It is strange that you have better performance in Tridef. I never found one game with better performance in Tridef than Nvidia.

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#64
Posted 10/07/2016 04:59 AM   
[quote="joker18"]It is strange that you have better performance in Tridef. I never found one game with better performance in Tridef than Nvidia. [/quote] Yes, I dont understand why I have bad performance in some games with 3D Vision. My last two options before I think about an upgrade are test with Windows 7 and do an overclock on my CPU to 4GHz if I can. For now, the next games I want to play are running fine, so not gonna do anything about it.
joker18 said:It is strange that you have better performance in Tridef. I never found one game with better performance in Tridef than Nvidia.


Yes, I dont understand why I have bad performance in some games with 3D Vision.
My last two options before I think about an upgrade are test with Windows 7 and do an overclock on my CPU to 4GHz if I can.
For now, the next games I want to play are running fine, so not gonna do anything about it.

EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
Motherboard MSI Z370 SLI PLUS
Processor i5-8600K @ 4.2 | Cooler SilverStone AR02
Corsair Vengeance 8GB 3000Mhz | Windows 10 Pro
SSD 240gb Kingston UV400 | 2x HDs 1TB RAID0 | 2x HD 2TB RAID1
TV LG Cinema 3D 49lb6200 | ACER EDID override | Oculus Rift CV1
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#65
Posted 10/07/2016 12:49 PM   
[quote="helifax"] Also, FRAPS or MSI afteburner are NOT reliable. They HOOK the same Present/glSwapBuffers as the 3D Vision driver does. It then counts how many time the Present() function was called in a second. So, if the 3D Vision driver calls Present() 2 times (instead of 1 time) Fraps will report DOUBLE THE FPS. Hence, exactly what you see in CM as being DOUBLED FPS. It is false! It doesn't actually measure the time between a Begin of Frame and End of Frame. The only reliable FPS overlay that works every single time is from Geforce Experience - Share. Nvidia is actually smart on how they calculate the FPS;) [/quote] I tried the FPS overlay of Geforce Experience at it too shows the same framerate drops in Dishonored as my videos on the first page. 38FPS in 3d in one area. 115fps in 2d in the same area. [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/968321/3d-vision/enabling-3d-causes-70-85-fps-drop-in-certain-games-/post/4984947/#4984947[/url]
helifax said:
Also, FRAPS or MSI afteburner are NOT reliable. They HOOK the same Present/glSwapBuffers as the 3D Vision driver does. It then counts how many time the Present() function was called in a second. So, if the 3D Vision driver calls Present() 2 times (instead of 1 time) Fraps will report DOUBLE THE FPS. Hence, exactly what you see in CM as being DOUBLED FPS. It is false!
It doesn't actually measure the time between a Begin of Frame and End of Frame.

The only reliable FPS overlay that works every single time is from Geforce Experience - Share. Nvidia is actually smart on how they calculate the FPS;)


I tried the FPS overlay of Geforce Experience at it too shows the same framerate drops in Dishonored as my videos on the first page. 38FPS in 3d in one area. 115fps in 2d in the same area.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/968321/3d-vision/enabling-3d-causes-70-85-fps-drop-in-certain-games-/post/4984947/#4984947

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#66
Posted 10/07/2016 10:11 PM   
[quote="terintamel"][quote="helifax"] Also, FRAPS or MSI afteburner are NOT reliable. They HOOK the same Present/glSwapBuffers as the 3D Vision driver does. It then counts how many time the Present() function was called in a second. So, if the 3D Vision driver calls Present() 2 times (instead of 1 time) Fraps will report DOUBLE THE FPS. Hence, exactly what you see in CM as being DOUBLED FPS. It is false! It doesn't actually measure the time between a Begin of Frame and End of Frame. The only reliable FPS overlay that works every single time is from Geforce Experience - Share. Nvidia is actually smart on how they calculate the FPS;) [/quote] I tried the FPS overlay of Geforce Experience at it too shows the same framerate drops in Dishonored as my videos on the first page. 38FPS in 3d in one area. 115fps in 2d in the same area. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWfCObQDAEs[/quote] Cool;) No idea what to say there (besides what was already said). Although, I want to say Thanks for making the same test again using GFE. Now, we know is not Fraps or MSI afterburner that makes false calculations;)
terintamel said:
helifax said:
Also, FRAPS or MSI afteburner are NOT reliable. They HOOK the same Present/glSwapBuffers as the 3D Vision driver does. It then counts how many time the Present() function was called in a second. So, if the 3D Vision driver calls Present() 2 times (instead of 1 time) Fraps will report DOUBLE THE FPS. Hence, exactly what you see in CM as being DOUBLED FPS. It is false!
It doesn't actually measure the time between a Begin of Frame and End of Frame.

The only reliable FPS overlay that works every single time is from Geforce Experience - Share. Nvidia is actually smart on how they calculate the FPS;)


I tried the FPS overlay of Geforce Experience at it too shows the same framerate drops in Dishonored as my videos on the first page. 38FPS in 3d in one area. 115fps in 2d in the same area.



Cool;) No idea what to say there (besides what was already said). Although, I want to say Thanks for making the same test again using GFE.
Now, we know is not Fraps or MSI afterburner that makes false calculations;)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#67
Posted 10/07/2016 10:14 PM   
Here is an odd one. Can someone explain why, at least in Dishonored, the penalty in certain areas for 3d is much less than with Helixmod uninstalled? Here are example videos from Dishonored with helixmod uninstalled. You can see the FPS drop is less than with it installed. Videos with Helixmod installed are on first page. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxsNNmOQSBM&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh1lX4C1B9Q&feature=youtu.be
Here is an odd one. Can someone explain why, at least in Dishonored, the penalty in certain areas for 3d is much less than with Helixmod uninstalled?

Here are example videos from Dishonored with helixmod uninstalled. You can see the FPS drop is less than with it installed. Videos with Helixmod installed are on first page.

;feature=youtu.be

;feature=youtu.be

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#68
Posted 10/08/2016 02:23 PM   
Here is what Nvidia support is saying and my response about this at least in Arkham City. This ticket was opened about the stuttering (which is fixed for me in 372.90), but also referenced the large FPS drops in 3d. [quote="terintamel"]Customer via CSS Web 10/07/2016 03:59 PM Ok I did as you asked Vsync ON and loaded up Arkham City and turned everything to max including 8X MSAA and Physx to High. Going to the same area where I see the bad drops to below 30fps the Framerate does not drop below 53 fps. I tried the same in Dishonored and with everything maxed and vsync on I got no less than 114 fps in 2d where I get ~30fps in 3d. Please see this thread I started on the geforce forums (w/video examples) about the 70-80% FPS drop with 3d enabled in only certain games. My username on the forum is terinamel. https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/968321/3d-vision/enabling-3d-causes-70-85-fps-drop-in-certain-games-/post/4984947/#4984947[/quote] [quote]Staff Account via Email 10/07/2016 03:32 PM Hi, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've been out of the office and playing catch up so apologize for the lack of update. I did discuss this with our development team, specifically the FPS drop with Arkham City when 3DV is enabled but off in-game. Development suggest this may be due to the fact that 3DV always force V-SYNC On and can impact GPU usage and FPS during missed frames, even if it's off in-game. In the case where you don't see the FPS drop, with 3DV disabled, was V-SYNC set to On or Off? If V-SYNC was Off then do you see the same behavior if you disable 3DV from the NVIDIA Control Panel and run the game at max settings with V-SYNC On? You have to max the settings in order to push the GPU since without 3DV it won't be as taxing on the GPU. If development suspicion is correct then you will see similar FPS drops when V-SYNC is forced On. Bet regards, [/quote]
Here is what Nvidia support is saying and my response about this at least in Arkham City. This ticket was opened about the stuttering (which is fixed for me in 372.90), but also referenced the large FPS drops in 3d.

terintamel said:Customer via CSS Web 10/07/2016 03:59 PM
Ok I did as you asked Vsync ON and loaded up Arkham City and turned everything to max including 8X MSAA and Physx to High. Going to the same area where I see the bad drops to below 30fps the Framerate does not drop below 53 fps.

I tried the same in Dishonored and with everything maxed and vsync on I got no less than 114 fps in 2d where I get ~30fps in 3d.

Please see this thread I started on the geforce forums (w/video examples) about the 70-80% FPS drop with 3d enabled in only certain games. My username on the forum is terinamel.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/968321/3d-vision/enabling-3d-causes-70-85-fps-drop-in-certain-games-/post/4984947/#4984947


Staff Account via Email 10/07/2016 03:32 PM
Hi,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've been out of the office and playing catch up so apologize for the lack of update. I did discuss this with our development team, specifically the FPS drop with Arkham City when 3DV is enabled but off in-game. Development suggest this may be due to the fact that 3DV always force V-SYNC On and can impact GPU usage and FPS during missed frames, even if it's off in-game.

In the case where you don't see the FPS drop, with 3DV disabled, was V-SYNC set to On or Off? If V-SYNC was Off then do you see the same behavior if you disable 3DV from the NVIDIA Control Panel and run the game at max settings with V-SYNC On? You have to max the settings in order to push the GPU since without 3DV it won't be as taxing on the GPU. If development suspicion is correct then you will see similar FPS drops when V-SYNC is forced On.


Bet regards,

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#69
Posted 10/08/2016 02:27 PM   
Did some benchmarks on Heaven 4.0 Would anybody do a benchmark to compare with my system? I wonder if this benchmark would tell me if my hardware CPU/MOBO/Memories could be causing bottleneck. Preset: Custom DX11 Quality: Ultra Tessellation: Extreme AA: x8 Resolution 1920x1080 3D Disabled [img]https://s18.postimg.org/xzk30k9kp/heaven.jpg[/img] 3D Enabled - Side by Side [img]https://s18.postimg.org/6evun1hfd/heaven_sbs.jpg[/img] 3D Enabled - 3D Vision [img]https://s18.postimg.org/xbb8hmaux/heaven_3dvision.jpg[/img]
Did some benchmarks on Heaven 4.0
Would anybody do a benchmark to compare with my system? I wonder if this benchmark would tell me if my hardware CPU/MOBO/Memories could be causing bottleneck.

Preset: Custom
DX11
Quality: Ultra
Tessellation: Extreme
AA: x8
Resolution 1920x1080

3D Disabled
Image

3D Enabled - Side by Side
Image

3D Enabled - 3D Vision
Image

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#70
Posted 10/09/2016 06:37 AM   
Interesting, how with 3D Vision your MIN FPS is 14.9 (15) and without it is almost HALF. 8.9 FPS. Based on those numbers alone I would say the GPU is working better with 3D Vision Enabled, but it doesn't SPIKE (up and down) as much as without 3D Vision Enabled. Try to make the same test again but: - Disable 3D VIsion - FORCE VSYN to always ON (on the Global Profile). See if you get better MIN FPS and how your MAX and AVG fps is handled.
Interesting,
how with 3D Vision your MIN FPS is 14.9 (15) and without it is almost HALF. 8.9 FPS.
Based on those numbers alone I would say the GPU is working better with 3D Vision Enabled, but it doesn't SPIKE (up and down) as much as without 3D Vision Enabled.

Try to make the same test again but:
- Disable 3D VIsion
- FORCE VSYN to always ON (on the Global Profile).

See if you get better MIN FPS and how your MAX and AVG fps is handled.

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#71
Posted 10/09/2016 10:12 AM   
Did some more benchmarks today. Don't know why I got better results yesterday with 3D Vision (60fps vs 40fps today) Regarding the minimum fps I cannot see any drops during the test, it is probably just the first second of the test that starts with very low fps. [u][b]3D Vision off vsync off[/b][/u] FPS: 92.7 Score: 2334 Min FPS: 21.4 Max FPS: 195.6 [u][b]3D Vision off vsync on[/b][/u] FPS: 58.6 Score: 1476 Min FPS: 10.6 Max FPS: 62.5 [u][b] 3D Vision on in the control panel 3D Vision off in Heaven vsync off[/b][/u] FPS: 84.1 Score: 2119 Min: 8.8 Max: 186.1 [u][b]3D Vision on in the control panel 3D Vision off in Heaven vsync on[/b][/u] FPS: 57.1 Score: 1439 Min 8.8 Max: 62.6 [u][b] 3D Vision on vsync off[/b][/u] FPS: 43.6 Score: 1100 Min 13.3 Max: 91.7 [u] [b]3D Vision on vsync on[/b][/u] FPS: 41.7 Score: 1051 Min 11.5 Max: 64.2
Did some more benchmarks today.

Don't know why I got better results yesterday with 3D Vision (60fps vs 40fps today)
Regarding the minimum fps I cannot see any drops during the test, it is probably just the first second of the test that starts with very low fps.

3D Vision off
vsync off


FPS: 92.7
Score: 2334
Min FPS: 21.4
Max FPS: 195.6

3D Vision off
vsync on


FPS: 58.6
Score: 1476
Min FPS: 10.6
Max FPS: 62.5

3D Vision on in the control panel
3D Vision off in Heaven
vsync off


FPS: 84.1
Score: 2119
Min: 8.8
Max: 186.1

3D Vision on in the control panel
3D Vision off in Heaven
vsync on


FPS: 57.1
Score: 1439
Min 8.8
Max: 62.6

3D Vision on
vsync off


FPS: 43.6
Score: 1100
Min 13.3
Max: 91.7

3D Vision on
vsync on


FPS: 41.7
Score: 1051
Min 11.5
Max: 64.2

EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
Motherboard MSI Z370 SLI PLUS
Processor i5-8600K @ 4.2 | Cooler SilverStone AR02
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#72
Posted 10/09/2016 05:01 PM   
I just dont understand why I get low fps in some games. Like just got SOMA and in 3D Vision fps is around 35 in the beginning of the game, there is no action that would require like CPU. In 2D I get like 140 fps. In theory fps in 3D should be half, so I should be over 60 on this game. Editing post... Strange thing, on SOMA the steam fps counter shows 25fps and the MSI Afterburn show 75fps. Question is, which one is true steam or afterburn?
I just dont understand why I get low fps in some games. Like just got SOMA and in 3D Vision fps is around 35 in the beginning of the game, there is no action that would require like CPU.
In 2D I get like 140 fps. In theory fps in 3D should be half, so I should be over 60 on this game.

Editing post... Strange thing, on SOMA the steam fps counter shows 25fps and the MSI Afterburn show 75fps. Question is, which one is true steam or afterburn?

EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
Motherboard MSI Z370 SLI PLUS
Processor i5-8600K @ 4.2 | Cooler SilverStone AR02
Corsair Vengeance 8GB 3000Mhz | Windows 10 Pro
SSD 240gb Kingston UV400 | 2x HDs 1TB RAID0 | 2x HD 2TB RAID1
TV LG Cinema 3D 49lb6200 | ACER EDID override | Oculus Rift CV1
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#73
Posted 10/10/2016 02:05 AM   
SOMA uses the OpenGL-3DVision wrapper to make it work in 3D Vision. I do a lot of things inside there;) so most overlays are wrong on what they display. (GF Experience is the one that is reliable) I don't know how STEAM overlay works but I know MSI Afterburner. Those 75 FPS from MSI afterburner are wrong! I incline to think that Steam Overlay calculates correctly. Those 75 number comes from here: 25 real FPS * 2 (we have 2 eyes) = 50FPS + 25FPS (which you see on the screen) = 75 FPS. I can replicate this every time on SOMA. The problem is why you have so little FPS. I can easily get 60FPS in 3D Vision on a single 980Ti (Single Screen) in the game.
SOMA uses the OpenGL-3DVision wrapper to make it work in 3D Vision. I do a lot of things inside there;) so most overlays are wrong on what they display. (GF Experience is the one that is reliable)
I don't know how STEAM overlay works but I know MSI Afterburner. Those 75 FPS from MSI afterburner are wrong!
I incline to think that Steam Overlay calculates correctly.

Those 75 number comes from here:
25 real FPS * 2 (we have 2 eyes) = 50FPS + 25FPS (which you see on the screen) = 75 FPS. I can replicate this every time on SOMA.

The problem is why you have so little FPS. I can easily get 60FPS in 3D Vision on a single 980Ti (Single Screen) in the game.

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#74
Posted 10/10/2016 09:43 AM   
[quote="helifax"]SOMA uses the OpenGL-3DVision wrapper to make it work in 3D Vision. I do a lot of things inside there;) so most overlays are wrong on what they display. (GF Experience is the one that is reliable) I don't know how STEAM overlay works but I know MSI Afterburner. Those 75 FPS from MSI afterburner are wrong! I incline to think that Steam Overlay calculates correctly. Those 75 number comes from here: 25 real FPS * 2 (we have 2 eyes) = 50FPS + 25FPS (which you see on the screen) = 75 FPS. I can replicate this every time on SOMA. The problem is why you have so little FPS. I can easily get 60FPS in 3D Vision on a single 980Ti (Single Screen) in the game.[/quote] Installed Windows 7 in another disk and now i am getting 60 fps in SOMA. But now it doesnt load 3D Vision, it opens in SBS. I have already put to run as administrator in the soma.exe Any idea to get the game to load in 3D Vision?
helifax said:SOMA uses the OpenGL-3DVision wrapper to make it work in 3D Vision. I do a lot of things inside there;) so most overlays are wrong on what they display. (GF Experience is the one that is reliable)
I don't know how STEAM overlay works but I know MSI Afterburner. Those 75 FPS from MSI afterburner are wrong!
I incline to think that Steam Overlay calculates correctly.

Those 75 number comes from here:
25 real FPS * 2 (we have 2 eyes) = 50FPS + 25FPS (which you see on the screen) = 75 FPS. I can replicate this every time on SOMA.

The problem is why you have so little FPS. I can easily get 60FPS in 3D Vision on a single 980Ti (Single Screen) in the game.


Installed Windows 7 in another disk and now i am getting 60 fps in SOMA. But now it doesnt load 3D Vision, it opens in SBS. I have already put to run as administrator in the soma.exe
Any idea to get the game to load in 3D Vision?

EVGA GTX 1070 FTW
Motherboard MSI Z370 SLI PLUS
Processor i5-8600K @ 4.2 | Cooler SilverStone AR02
Corsair Vengeance 8GB 3000Mhz | Windows 10 Pro
SSD 240gb Kingston UV400 | 2x HDs 1TB RAID0 | 2x HD 2TB RAID1
TV LG Cinema 3D 49lb6200 | ACER EDID override | Oculus Rift CV1
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/J0hnnieW4lker
Screenshots: http://phereo.com/583b3a2f8884282d5d000007

#75
Posted 10/10/2016 08:56 PM   
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