[quote="Laast"][quote="Volnaiskra"]If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?[/quote]
Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal).
Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders.
[/quote]I didn't realise helixmod shared actual game content. The mods are usually so small in filesize that I assumed they just contained code snippets that overwrote the game's original code.
Either way, a question that needs to be asked is: would the devs give a shit? It's hard to see why they would. These patches would never alter the game's creative intent, and any profit Nvidia generated from such shader changes would spill directly into profit for the dev. They would expand the game's marketability into the 3D niche. It'd also fix perceived bugs and keep disgruntled customers off the devs' forums. It'd be a free win for the devs.
Of course, Nvidia would still need to operate by the book, so would probably need to get an official agreement from the devs. I can imagine that this might cause lots of red tape, and perhaps long delays getting the fixes out sometimes, but other than that, I can see it working.
Devs with explicit AMD connections might decline, as AMD mightn't want Nvidia to have any advantage with those games. But otherwise, I don't see why most devs wouldn't generally issue a blanket green light for Nvidia to implement such changes.
Who knows - if Nvidia had someone like Helix working on shaders for them, they might even work with the devs before the games are actually released. My understanding is that they do this in other areas already.
Volnaiskra said:If that were the case, wouldn't Tridef be illegal?
Tridef is a driver, just like 3Dvision drivers from Nvidia. It doesn't modify and share game content like Helix mod does. It is "DX post-processing" (legal) versus modified copyrighted files (not so legal).
Excepted if Nvidia gets official agreements from every devs, I doubt it could happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I would like to have the opinion of Helix modders.
I didn't realise helixmod shared actual game content. The mods are usually so small in filesize that I assumed they just contained code snippets that overwrote the game's original code.
Either way, a question that needs to be asked is: would the devs give a shit? It's hard to see why they would. These patches would never alter the game's creative intent, and any profit Nvidia generated from such shader changes would spill directly into profit for the dev. They would expand the game's marketability into the 3D niche. It'd also fix perceived bugs and keep disgruntled customers off the devs' forums. It'd be a free win for the devs.
Of course, Nvidia would still need to operate by the book, so would probably need to get an official agreement from the devs. I can imagine that this might cause lots of red tape, and perhaps long delays getting the fixes out sometimes, but other than that, I can see it working.
Devs with explicit AMD connections might decline, as AMD mightn't want Nvidia to have any advantage with those games. But otherwise, I don't see why most devs wouldn't generally issue a blanket green light for Nvidia to implement such changes.
Who knows - if Nvidia had someone like Helix working on shaders for them, they might even work with the devs before the games are actually released. My understanding is that they do this in other areas already.
"I didn't realise helixmod shared actual game content. The mods are usually so small in filesize that I assumed they just contained code snippets that overwrote the game's original code."
Yes this is all the mods do, no actual original game files are altered or distributed, but from a strictly legal perspective this might still require a devs approval. I agree with everything else you said, this would be a win for them, free bug fixing and an expansion of their market.
"I didn't realise helixmod shared actual game content. The mods are usually so small in filesize that I assumed they just contained code snippets that overwrote the game's original code."
Yes this is all the mods do, no actual original game files are altered or distributed, but from a strictly legal perspective this might still require a devs approval. I agree with everything else you said, this would be a win for them, free bug fixing and an expansion of their market.
From a strictly legal standpoint the devs have been assaulting ours eyes on numerous occasions for years, anything done by the community is done so purely as a defensive measure ... :)
From a strictly legal standpoint the devs have been assaulting ours eyes on numerous occasions for years, anything done by the community is done so purely as a defensive measure ... :)
All the legalities aside, we can always be sure that it always comes down to money. If no one is making money off it, then typically no one cares enough to spend the money it costs to sue. If someone is making serious money off it, then you get sued regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
I'm pretty sure that we aren't talking serious money here. Even if NVidia had a pay-for-fix system setup, it's pretty small change from a developer perspective. And, as noted, it actually frees them up from having to fix stuff, which is actually a benefit to them.
I could see it working sort of like NVidia paying for 3D Vision Ready support. They already pay the devs to do a weak job, this could be paying someone who cares to do a good job. And then skip paying for 3D Vision Ready to pay for someone who cares.
All theoretically possible, but unlikely to happen. Which is a real drag, because we at least know that Chiri was interested in doing this work for hire. He has a crappy job that pays the bills, but is no fun. Fixing games is fun, but we pretty much got to see that we can't reach enough 3D gamers to make it work as a living.
I can still dream that NVidia hires Chiri to fix games properly.
All the legalities aside, we can always be sure that it always comes down to money. If no one is making money off it, then typically no one cares enough to spend the money it costs to sue. If someone is making serious money off it, then you get sued regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
I'm pretty sure that we aren't talking serious money here. Even if NVidia had a pay-for-fix system setup, it's pretty small change from a developer perspective. And, as noted, it actually frees them up from having to fix stuff, which is actually a benefit to them.
I could see it working sort of like NVidia paying for 3D Vision Ready support. They already pay the devs to do a weak job, this could be paying someone who cares to do a good job. And then skip paying for 3D Vision Ready to pay for someone who cares.
All theoretically possible, but unlikely to happen. Which is a real drag, because we at least know that Chiri was interested in doing this work for hire. He has a crappy job that pays the bills, but is no fun. Fixing games is fun, but we pretty much got to see that we can't reach enough 3D gamers to make it work as a living.
I can still dream that NVidia hires Chiri to fix games properly.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Hmm..
well isn't NVIDIA already MODIFYING shaders? I mean..just LOOK at 3D Vision Automatic..IT'S exactly what it does! The problem is that the AUTO mode doesn't work 100%
Don't get me wrong or anything... but isn't Helix Mod RELYING on the Nvidia 3D Automatic also?
From the legal point of view...No one will ever ever sue you for a shader or any type of reverse engineering that modifies any code AS LONG AS IS NOT MALICIOUS and the respective company DOESN'T LOSE MONEY!
On the contrary any type of modification to a CODE that ADDS functionality is beneficial for them !
(This I know from a dev, I actually had quite a long chat regarding this)
Another thing! They give us Binary CODE (aka already compiled code, NO SOURCE code) and thus THEY cannot sue you for anything since IS impossible to copy any assembly code from a program and use it (it will not work is not like copying a high level programming method/function and use it in your application)
I did a bit of research around this area (still making) since I am thinking of going with my Surround fixes commercial (and thus having much more time investing in this aka full time job rather than a hobby...an idea atm)
The debate can go on..but they need proof to sue you and to prove that you are affecting their business in a way...and as long as you are adding to their code they cannot do anything (and OFC respect the copyright stuff)
well isn't NVIDIA already MODIFYING shaders? I mean..just LOOK at 3D Vision Automatic..IT'S exactly what it does! The problem is that the AUTO mode doesn't work 100%
Don't get me wrong or anything... but isn't Helix Mod RELYING on the Nvidia 3D Automatic also?
From the legal point of view...No one will ever ever sue you for a shader or any type of reverse engineering that modifies any code AS LONG AS IS NOT MALICIOUS and the respective company DOESN'T LOSE MONEY!
On the contrary any type of modification to a CODE that ADDS functionality is beneficial for them !
(This I know from a dev, I actually had quite a long chat regarding this)
Another thing! They give us Binary CODE (aka already compiled code, NO SOURCE code) and thus THEY cannot sue you for anything since IS impossible to copy any assembly code from a program and use it (it will not work is not like copying a high level programming method/function and use it in your application)
I did a bit of research around this area (still making) since I am thinking of going with my Surround fixes commercial (and thus having much more time investing in this aka full time job rather than a hobby...an idea atm)
The debate can go on..but they need proof to sue you and to prove that you are affecting their business in a way...and as long as you are adding to their code they cannot do anything (and OFC respect the copyright stuff)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Hi. Any news on this? Has anyone an idea WHEN we will hear further details from nvidia. Before the end of this year?
I am still hoping for a DX 11 Solution. Making DX11 games playable or not decides between life and death of 3d Vision in the future.
Btw, only a living 3D vision makes me buy High End Nvidia Hardware again and again :-)
Heck, I'll be impressed if we just get to assign a hotkey and target directory for screenshots and finally enable convergence by default. I've been waiting for those things for about three years now.
Heck, I'll be impressed if we just get to assign a hotkey and target directory for screenshots and finally enable convergence by default. I've been waiting for those things for about three years now.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
Either way, a question that needs to be asked is: would the devs give a shit? It's hard to see why they would. These patches would never alter the game's creative intent, and any profit Nvidia generated from such shader changes would spill directly into profit for the dev. They would expand the game's marketability into the 3D niche. It'd also fix perceived bugs and keep disgruntled customers off the devs' forums. It'd be a free win for the devs.
Of course, Nvidia would still need to operate by the book, so would probably need to get an official agreement from the devs. I can imagine that this might cause lots of red tape, and perhaps long delays getting the fixes out sometimes, but other than that, I can see it working.
Devs with explicit AMD connections might decline, as AMD mightn't want Nvidia to have any advantage with those games. But otherwise, I don't see why most devs wouldn't generally issue a blanket green light for Nvidia to implement such changes.
Who knows - if Nvidia had someone like Helix working on shaders for them, they might even work with the devs before the games are actually released. My understanding is that they do this in other areas already.
Yes this is all the mods do, no actual original game files are altered or distributed, but from a strictly legal perspective this might still require a devs approval. I agree with everything else you said, this would be a win for them, free bug fixing and an expansion of their market.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
I'm pretty sure that we aren't talking serious money here. Even if NVidia had a pay-for-fix system setup, it's pretty small change from a developer perspective. And, as noted, it actually frees them up from having to fix stuff, which is actually a benefit to them.
I could see it working sort of like NVidia paying for 3D Vision Ready support. They already pay the devs to do a weak job, this could be paying someone who cares to do a good job. And then skip paying for 3D Vision Ready to pay for someone who cares.
All theoretically possible, but unlikely to happen. Which is a real drag, because we at least know that Chiri was interested in doing this work for hire. He has a crappy job that pays the bills, but is no fun. Fixing games is fun, but we pretty much got to see that we can't reach enough 3D gamers to make it work as a living.
I can still dream that NVidia hires Chiri to fix games properly.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
well isn't NVIDIA already MODIFYING shaders? I mean..just LOOK at 3D Vision Automatic..IT'S exactly what it does! The problem is that the AUTO mode doesn't work 100%
Don't get me wrong or anything... but isn't Helix Mod RELYING on the Nvidia 3D Automatic also?
From the legal point of view...No one will ever ever sue you for a shader or any type of reverse engineering that modifies any code AS LONG AS IS NOT MALICIOUS and the respective company DOESN'T LOSE MONEY!
On the contrary any type of modification to a CODE that ADDS functionality is beneficial for them !
(This I know from a dev, I actually had quite a long chat regarding this)
Another thing! They give us Binary CODE (aka already compiled code, NO SOURCE code) and thus THEY cannot sue you for anything since IS impossible to copy any assembly code from a program and use it (it will not work is not like copying a high level programming method/function and use it in your application)
I did a bit of research around this area (still making) since I am thinking of going with my Surround fixes commercial (and thus having much more time investing in this aka full time job rather than a hobby...an idea atm)
The debate can go on..but they need proof to sue you and to prove that you are affecting their business in a way...and as long as you are adding to their code they cannot do anything (and OFC respect the copyright stuff)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
I am still hoping for a DX 11 Solution. Making DX11 games playable or not decides between life and death of 3d Vision in the future.
Btw, only a living 3D vision makes me buy High End Nvidia Hardware again and again :-)
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.
-- Doctor Who, "Face of Evil"