my 3dvis/DepthQ setup broke today - why (cable / ms patch?)
Hi. My 3dvision/DepthQ-HD projector setup suddenly stopped working today.
Until now, it had been working impressively for a bit more than a week.
I will describe the symptoms and the 'what other things have changed at the same time,
that might have caused it'.

Symptoms: Using e.g. the 3d-vision setup wizard, the projector
no longer displays the expected flipping between 2 different graphics pages

- at least not in the normal way. Instead of showing alternating polygons quickly,
it now shows 7-8 seconds of one type of polygons, followed by 7-8 seconds of the other type of polygons.
(So, you could argue the page-flipping is still happening,
but now 420 times slower. At least it looks that way to the naked eye..)
The IR pyramid still lights up, and the glasses react too, but given that I can't see any
page flipping with the naked eye, I can't see any with the glasses either (and it doesn't work in games either).

I've tried various combinations of uninstalling and reinstalling the graphics drivers and IR driver,
but to no avail/no changed behaviour.
Both windows and the projector claim to still be running in 120 hz mode
(at (only) one point I think I saw something reporting 60 hz instead of 120 hz, which might account for the weird behaviour?)


Answers to "What did you touch to break it?"
Well I'm only aware of two-three things.
One thing (which I assume is not the cause, but.. it happened at the same time..)
is a windows security update: Last night or this morning, windows suddenly told me,
that it intended to install/had installed some security patch it felt I needed badly(KB972270).
I just know that my 3dvision stuff worked before it arrived on the scene..

The second thing (which is the only other suspect I have), is
"messing with USB cables for the IR emitter".
The 3-meter USB cable for IR emitter that came with the box, is a bit short for my setup (think tripping wires).
So tonight I tried to hook up the IR emitter with a shielded(?thick) USB 2.0 5 meter cable,
with a mini-USB adapter at the end. It didn't work. The 3d-V setup wizard accepted it all,
and the IR emitter lighted bright green, but instead of working normally,
I got the behaviour listed above, with the 7 second page flipping interval..

So - this was sort of 'the official moment it broke', ie the point in time when I first noticed a problem.
I then tried to switch back to the "official 3 meter cable", but since then I haven't been able
to get out of the 7 second pageflipping behaviour.

Unfortunately, I hadn't just tried the ordinary 3-meter cable just before I experimented
with the 5-meter cable (I wasn't expecting it to break)
- so I lost a 'precious opportunity' to determine whether the system had already
broken because of windows-security-patch (before I started messing with 5meter cable).

A third issue is that I have the desktop duplicated on a secondary CRT display.
But: It used to work anyway. And that screen also synced to 120 hz.
And/but: Even after I've now removed the secondary-monitor duplication, the issue remains.

So.. until I've resolved this, I have a very pricey non-3d setup.. :-).
I've considered buying a new set of "3d vision kit", but (a) it probably won't solve the issue
and (B) it would be rather expensive in the long run?
My reason for considering this, is if the IR emitter part broke because of the USB cable experiments?
Alternatively, I could also reinstall windows and everything from scratch...
I'd really really prefer not to do that part, not fun..

I hope the DepthQ projector is not part of the issue.. But I can't really see
how it could be(?) Of course it's involved in the delicate timing-thingy,
but I'd assume it just does its 120hz thing as it should? (I don't really know if there
is some way I can 'catch/trick' the projector into revealing if it's not doing its part of the bargain..?
But at least the plain image looks nice and solid..?)

A note on the "7 second page-flip": it's not just a page-flip,
the 7-8 second interval has a slight sense of 'phasing/interference',
as if something slightly off is happening with some timing (I sense a slight shifting in colors).

I also tried to remove this newest windows-security patch, but that didn't seem to solve it.
However, (a) I'm not quite sure removing patches can always undo any harm they managed to wreak,
and (B) secondly the patch was very quick to re-install itself again (I've since disabled auto-(re)install of these,
but I admit I haven't tried the sequence of (1) remove patch, (2) reinstall all drivers.. I have a suspicion it won't help(?)).

But.. at least the system setup worked admirably for a bit over a week.. (but now, not at all).
I liked it very much while it lasted! A tad expensive for a week though.

I'd very much appreciate any help/suggestions/guidance in two areas:
(1) to determine what has broken (ie which 'internal part' is making things fail
- is it the driver software configuration and/or windows,
or is it the hardware, either the IR syncing or the DepthQ projector).
(2) a better understanding of how the components of 3d vision all function together, .. when they work...
The DepthQ projector came with a lot of good documentation /PDFs..
So far, I'm not exactly impressed with the 3d-vision fare on documentation:
In the supplied documentation, I couldn't find a description of the IR cable
more accurate than "USB cable" - it would be nice to read "It is USB 2.0"(is it?), "it is a mini-B 5-pin connector (is it?)"
I appreciate these forums though, and hope I might eventually find a solution/explanation here.
I have read through the forum 3d vision FAQ, but didn't find much technical detail to go on?
If there are any NVIDIA detailed PDF docs (or HTML/whatever) on 3d vision that I haven't found yet, please enlighten me.
I'm a software engineer for 15+ years, but right now I have no clue..
Sorry if I sound longwinded and a bit ranty, but I've just shelled out massive amounts of cash (8000$+)
for an (excellent) toy that now has stopped working after a week :-).
Hi. My 3dvision/DepthQ-HD projector setup suddenly stopped working today.

Until now, it had been working impressively for a bit more than a week.

I will describe the symptoms and the 'what other things have changed at the same time,

that might have caused it'.



Symptoms: Using e.g. the 3d-vision setup wizard, the projector

no longer displays the expected flipping between 2 different graphics pages



- at least not in the normal way. Instead of showing alternating polygons quickly,

it now shows 7-8 seconds of one type of polygons, followed by 7-8 seconds of the other type of polygons.

(So, you could argue the page-flipping is still happening,

but now 420 times slower. At least it looks that way to the naked eye..)

The IR pyramid still lights up, and the glasses react too, but given that I can't see any

page flipping with the naked eye, I can't see any with the glasses either (and it doesn't work in games either).



I've tried various combinations of uninstalling and reinstalling the graphics drivers and IR driver,

but to no avail/no changed behaviour.

Both windows and the projector claim to still be running in 120 hz mode

(at (only) one point I think I saw something reporting 60 hz instead of 120 hz, which might account for the weird behaviour?)





Answers to "What did you touch to break it?"

Well I'm only aware of two-three things.

One thing (which I assume is not the cause, but.. it happened at the same time..)

is a windows security update: Last night or this morning, windows suddenly told me,

that it intended to install/had installed some security patch it felt I needed badly(KB972270).

I just know that my 3dvision stuff worked before it arrived on the scene..



The second thing (which is the only other suspect I have), is

"messing with USB cables for the IR emitter".

The 3-meter USB cable for IR emitter that came with the box, is a bit short for my setup (think tripping wires).

So tonight I tried to hook up the IR emitter with a shielded(?thick) USB 2.0 5 meter cable,

with a mini-USB adapter at the end. It didn't work. The 3d-V setup wizard accepted it all,

and the IR emitter lighted bright green, but instead of working normally,

I got the behaviour listed above, with the 7 second page flipping interval..



So - this was sort of 'the official moment it broke', ie the point in time when I first noticed a problem.

I then tried to switch back to the "official 3 meter cable", but since then I haven't been able

to get out of the 7 second pageflipping behaviour.



Unfortunately, I hadn't just tried the ordinary 3-meter cable just before I experimented

with the 5-meter cable (I wasn't expecting it to break)

- so I lost a 'precious opportunity' to determine whether the system had already

broken because of windows-security-patch (before I started messing with 5meter cable).



A third issue is that I have the desktop duplicated on a secondary CRT display.

But: It used to work anyway. And that screen also synced to 120 hz.

And/but: Even after I've now removed the secondary-monitor duplication, the issue remains.



So.. until I've resolved this, I have a very pricey non-3d setup.. :-).

I've considered buying a new set of "3d vision kit", but (a) it probably won't solve the issue

and (B) it would be rather expensive in the long run?

My reason for considering this, is if the IR emitter part broke because of the USB cable experiments?

Alternatively, I could also reinstall windows and everything from scratch...

I'd really really prefer not to do that part, not fun..



I hope the DepthQ projector is not part of the issue.. But I can't really see

how it could be(?) Of course it's involved in the delicate timing-thingy,

but I'd assume it just does its 120hz thing as it should? (I don't really know if there

is some way I can 'catch/trick' the projector into revealing if it's not doing its part of the bargain..?

But at least the plain image looks nice and solid..?)



A note on the "7 second page-flip": it's not just a page-flip,

the 7-8 second interval has a slight sense of 'phasing/interference',

as if something slightly off is happening with some timing (I sense a slight shifting in colors).



I also tried to remove this newest windows-security patch, but that didn't seem to solve it.

However, (a) I'm not quite sure removing patches can always undo any harm they managed to wreak,

and (B) secondly the patch was very quick to re-install itself again (I've since disabled auto-(re)install of these,

but I admit I haven't tried the sequence of (1) remove patch, (2) reinstall all drivers.. I have a suspicion it won't help(?)).



But.. at least the system setup worked admirably for a bit over a week.. (but now, not at all).

I liked it very much while it lasted! A tad expensive for a week though.



I'd very much appreciate any help/suggestions/guidance in two areas:

(1) to determine what has broken (ie which 'internal part' is making things fail

- is it the driver software configuration and/or windows,

or is it the hardware, either the IR syncing or the DepthQ projector).

(2) a better understanding of how the components of 3d vision all function together, .. when they work...

The DepthQ projector came with a lot of good documentation /PDFs..

So far, I'm not exactly impressed with the 3d-vision fare on documentation:

In the supplied documentation, I couldn't find a description of the IR cable

more accurate than "USB cable" - it would be nice to read "It is USB 2.0"(is it?), "it is a mini-B 5-pin connector (is it?)"

I appreciate these forums though, and hope I might eventually find a solution/explanation here.

I have read through the forum 3d vision FAQ, but didn't find much technical detail to go on?

If there are any NVIDIA detailed PDF docs (or HTML/whatever) on 3d vision that I haven't found yet, please enlighten me.

I'm a software engineer for 15+ years, but right now I have no clue..

Sorry if I sound longwinded and a bit ranty, but I've just shelled out massive amounts of cash (8000$+)

for an (excellent) toy that now has stopped working after a week :-).

#1
Posted 01/14/2010 09:16 PM   
A note on the security patch:
As far I as I can find out, the patch concerns this:
"MS10-001: Vulnerability in the Embedded OpenType Font Engine could allow remote code execution"

which (depending on how the fix actually works..)
doesn't sound like something that should break 3d vision syncing...?

So if that rules out the 'ms patch did it',
then the main suspect is 'me, experimenting with 5 meter USB cable, broke it'...

I wish I knew more about the interaction between the 3 parts, for syncing, for
(1) "nvidia 3d vision driver",
(2) IR emitter
(3) projector

IE I can see with naked eye, that something is wrong regarding what is being output
on the projector screen - when it normally works, the projector screen
shows a continous blur of 2 different image sources flipping at 120 hz.
Now this blur seems entirely gone.

But I don't have any technical info on 'which parts drive what' in the 1/2/3 above..
Does (2), the IR, play an active/passive slave/master role in the setup?
IE can a broken (2) cause (3) to display bad behaviour?

(I'm thinking: In an "ideal" world, the projector (3) will march to its own steady drum of 120hz,
and the computer will just keep sync to this and output flipping images accordingly..(but..))
But: I guess that thinking is flawed..? The projector doesn't control the timing.. the graphics card does, I guess..?
So when the projector says "I can do 120 hz", what it's really saying is
"I can keep up to the pace of a 120 hz signal from a graphics card".

But if the graphics card controls the timing, then I can't see that messing with (or even breaking) the IR emitter,
should be able to affect the projector output..?
(IE I'd expect failures with to be restricted to experience with 3d glasses and their dependence on the 'presumedly broken' IR emitter
- ie no influence on the expected 'good 120 hz blur on the projector' (which alas doesn't happen)).

One un-anchored theory regarding how the IR emitter might still be involved in screwing things up..
What if the broken IR emitter continually "reboots" / is re-synced / started up by the 3d vision driver..?
Such a "rendez-vous" would presumably be sync'ed with a starting/stopping of the page-flipping..
So if the IR emitter never starts up its run properly, then maybe the page-flipping isn't started properly either..
(ie if the page-flipping part is continuously waiting for the IR emitter to get up on its horse).
I know that sounds like a bad hallucination, but I can't figure out why a broken IR-thingy would otherwise
affect the page-flipping on the display-device.
Without knowing anything about it, I'd assume the IR emitter was a passive slave to the rest of the bits,
just having to output the sync that must match what the other parts are already doing/have already established.

I'll go cry now.
A note on the security patch:

As far I as I can find out, the patch concerns this:

"MS10-001: Vulnerability in the Embedded OpenType Font Engine could allow remote code execution"



which (depending on how the fix actually works..)

doesn't sound like something that should break 3d vision syncing...?



So if that rules out the 'ms patch did it',

then the main suspect is 'me, experimenting with 5 meter USB cable, broke it'...



I wish I knew more about the interaction between the 3 parts, for syncing, for

(1) "nvidia 3d vision driver",

(2) IR emitter

(3) projector



IE I can see with naked eye, that something is wrong regarding what is being output

on the projector screen - when it normally works, the projector screen

shows a continous blur of 2 different image sources flipping at 120 hz.

Now this blur seems entirely gone.



But I don't have any technical info on 'which parts drive what' in the 1/2/3 above..

Does (2), the IR, play an active/passive slave/master role in the setup?

IE can a broken (2) cause (3) to display bad behaviour?



(I'm thinking: In an "ideal" world, the projector (3) will march to its own steady drum of 120hz,

and the computer will just keep sync to this and output flipping images accordingly..(but..))

But: I guess that thinking is flawed..? The projector doesn't control the timing.. the graphics card does, I guess..?

So when the projector says "I can do 120 hz", what it's really saying is

"I can keep up to the pace of a 120 hz signal from a graphics card".



But if the graphics card controls the timing, then I can't see that messing with (or even breaking) the IR emitter,

should be able to affect the projector output..?

(IE I'd expect failures with to be restricted to experience with 3d glasses and their dependence on the 'presumedly broken' IR emitter

- ie no influence on the expected 'good 120 hz blur on the projector' (which alas doesn't happen)).



One un-anchored theory regarding how the IR emitter might still be involved in screwing things up..

What if the broken IR emitter continually "reboots" / is re-synced / started up by the 3d vision driver..?

Such a "rendez-vous" would presumably be sync'ed with a starting/stopping of the page-flipping..

So if the IR emitter never starts up its run properly, then maybe the page-flipping isn't started properly either..

(ie if the page-flipping part is continuously waiting for the IR emitter to get up on its horse).

I know that sounds like a bad hallucination, but I can't figure out why a broken IR-thingy would otherwise

affect the page-flipping on the display-device.

Without knowing anything about it, I'd assume the IR emitter was a passive slave to the rest of the bits,

just having to output the sync that must match what the other parts are already doing/have already established.



I'll go cry now.

#2
Posted 01/14/2010 09:40 PM   
A quick note on mini-USB 4-pin / 5-pin:
I sometimes see both 4-pin and 5-pin mentioned.
Do both kinds exist, and do they erroneously plug into same ports?
(I'd expect them to have different form factors and not be able to plug into the other kind?).

I ask this because I wonder if it's possible to break
USB devices by plugging a 4pin into a 5pin..?

(I can only count the pins in one part, the other part is rather dark and hidden)
- I think I count 5 pins on the ones I see..?
A quick note on mini-USB 4-pin / 5-pin:

I sometimes see both 4-pin and 5-pin mentioned.

Do both kinds exist, and do they erroneously plug into same ports?

(I'd expect them to have different form factors and not be able to plug into the other kind?).



I ask this because I wonder if it's possible to break

USB devices by plugging a 4pin into a 5pin..?



(I can only count the pins in one part, the other part is rather dark and hidden)

- I think I count 5 pins on the ones I see..?

#3
Posted 01/14/2010 10:09 PM   
Hi. I thought I'd put in an update for this,
in order to possibly help/not help others.
In general: "a lot has happened, and I don't really know what to conclude from it".

First: I tried the 5m cable - and - I still believe/assume the 5m cable
suggestion is a sensible one (USB cables _can_ definitely be too long,
but I don't think 5m is bad here).
Also, I believe it has to be a USB 2.0 compliant cable, but I'm not sure
(I couldn't find anything in the "documentation" that described
the USB as anything less generic than "USB"...?)

Originally, when I tried this, my 3d setup broke, as described in this posting.
I have still no idea why; I don't know if the issues are related,
and I still don't know if the fault lies with 3d vision or DepthQ projector
or in some relationship between them.
I switched back to 3m cable, but it didn't help.
After a couple of days, where the 3d stuff would "never" work,
then on the following days, instead it started working "on and off"
- sometimes it would work, sometimes not.
After a further couple of days, now it works "most of the time",
ie it sort of works quite like it did for the first week, before I messed with the cables.

Finally, after it had been stable for quite some time, I did a 'very controlled' test
again of the 5 meter cable (since I don't have any reason to assume there
is something wrong with the cable(?)).
And now it suddenly works OK, even with the 5 meter cable, and has worked
ok for quite some time.
So... if you are willing to risk your entire system, 5m cable seems to actually
work as it should..

Two additional things: I've had a support case open with nvidia for this issue;
they were quite polite and helpful, but 'in a very general way';
we never got so far that any kind of technical discussion on why it fails happened,
(it was on the level of 'have you tried rebooting your computer/sure there is no banana in the cd bay?')
and since the issue seems to (?) have resolved itself, I've for now closed the case
before they wasted more time on a spurious hard-to-nail issue.

Second: They DID suggest I update the 3d vision CD driver version
- so I've switched from 'the version that was current a month or so ago',
to the downloadable (beta) version available currently.
I was under the assumption, that this newer version mainly adds support
for some further display devices, but it may be that it also contains updates/fixes
to how the USB IR emitter driver operates...?
(I don't know if there are release notes for it available to us, to check for such stuff?)
IF the newer driver also contains updates to the USB/IR driver,
that might explain my problems and their disappearance, which otherwise seems very mysterious..

Long story short:
5m cable seems to work.
5m cable seemed to break my system.
5m cable now works again, without(?) breaking system.
I have no idea what happened or why it stopped (?) happening,
but I DID update the driver.

Apart from this, I sometimes experience that the DepthQ projector
starts up in a weird display mode, where the colours are 'very bluish',
and the colour depth/resolution seems very reduced (old 1980's style colour dithering).
However this resolves itself either by turning it off/on again,
or by remote-control clicking 'auto-adjust image'.
I originally thought this was related to 3d stereo problems,
but I've now seen the 3d stereo work, even in this 'weird off-kilter mode'.

So, to other 5m cablers.. "good luck" :-).
Hi. I thought I'd put in an update for this,

in order to possibly help/not help others.

In general: "a lot has happened, and I don't really know what to conclude from it".



First: I tried the 5m cable - and - I still believe/assume the 5m cable

suggestion is a sensible one (USB cables _can_ definitely be too long,

but I don't think 5m is bad here).

Also, I believe it has to be a USB 2.0 compliant cable, but I'm not sure

(I couldn't find anything in the "documentation" that described

the USB as anything less generic than "USB"...?)



Originally, when I tried this, my 3d setup broke, as described in this posting.

I have still no idea why; I don't know if the issues are related,

and I still don't know if the fault lies with 3d vision or DepthQ projector

or in some relationship between them.

I switched back to 3m cable, but it didn't help.

After a couple of days, where the 3d stuff would "never" work,

then on the following days, instead it started working "on and off"

- sometimes it would work, sometimes not.

After a further couple of days, now it works "most of the time",

ie it sort of works quite like it did for the first week, before I messed with the cables.



Finally, after it had been stable for quite some time, I did a 'very controlled' test

again of the 5 meter cable (since I don't have any reason to assume there

is something wrong with the cable(?)).

And now it suddenly works OK, even with the 5 meter cable, and has worked

ok for quite some time.

So... if you are willing to risk your entire system, 5m cable seems to actually

work as it should..



Two additional things: I've had a support case open with nvidia for this issue;

they were quite polite and helpful, but 'in a very general way';

we never got so far that any kind of technical discussion on why it fails happened,

(it was on the level of 'have you tried rebooting your computer/sure there is no banana in the cd bay?')

and since the issue seems to (?) have resolved itself, I've for now closed the case

before they wasted more time on a spurious hard-to-nail issue.



Second: They DID suggest I update the 3d vision CD driver version

- so I've switched from 'the version that was current a month or so ago',

to the downloadable (beta) version available currently.

I was under the assumption, that this newer version mainly adds support

for some further display devices, but it may be that it also contains updates/fixes

to how the USB IR emitter driver operates...?

(I don't know if there are release notes for it available to us, to check for such stuff?)

IF the newer driver also contains updates to the USB/IR driver,

that might explain my problems and their disappearance, which otherwise seems very mysterious..



Long story short:

5m cable seems to work.

5m cable seemed to break my system.

5m cable now works again, without(?) breaking system.

I have no idea what happened or why it stopped (?) happening,

but I DID update the driver.



Apart from this, I sometimes experience that the DepthQ projector

starts up in a weird display mode, where the colours are 'very bluish',

and the colour depth/resolution seems very reduced (old 1980's style colour dithering).

However this resolves itself either by turning it off/on again,

or by remote-control clicking 'auto-adjust image'.

I originally thought this was related to 3d stereo problems,

but I've now seen the 3d stereo work, even in this 'weird off-kilter mode'.



So, to other 5m cablers.. "good luck" :-).

#4
Posted 01/29/2010 08:30 AM   
Hi

I have sent this form thread to DepthQ and hopefully they can respond with a solution for you.
Hi



I have sent this form thread to DepthQ and hopefully they can respond with a solution for you.

#5
Posted 01/29/2010 03:45 PM   
The problem you describe where [i]the colours are 'very bluish'[/i] can likely be fixed without restarting the projector. See the "Troubleshooting" section of the DepthQ WXGA Quick Start Guide under the heading "If the colors are wrong".

When you were having the problem where the stereo image flipping was not happening as expected, were you only seeing one set of polygons at a time? If so, the [b]Troubleshooting[/b] section of the DepthQ WXGA Quick Start Guide under the heading [b]If the stereo-sync is malfunctioning[/b] might help.

If you don't have your Quick Start Guide handy, you can download it in PDF form from the DepthQ Support page here:
[url="http://depthq.com/support.html"]http://depthq.com/support.html[/url]
The problem you describe where the colours are 'very bluish' can likely be fixed without restarting the projector. See the "Troubleshooting" section of the DepthQ WXGA Quick Start Guide under the heading "If the colors are wrong".



When you were having the problem where the stereo image flipping was not happening as expected, were you only seeing one set of polygons at a time? If so, the Troubleshooting section of the DepthQ WXGA Quick Start Guide under the heading If the stereo-sync is malfunctioning might help.



If you don't have your Quick Start Guide handy, you can download it in PDF form from the DepthQ Support page here:

http://depthq.com/support.html

#6
Posted 01/30/2010 02:52 AM   
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