Moving Forward.......
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So official 3D Vision support had ended. DSS and bo3b have expressed interest in "moving forward". It's a do or die type of situation for future triple AAA releases. Either we start "moving forward" soon or watch any hope of stereoscopic gaming using 3Dmigoto type fixes die with the abandonment of the wrapper. Compatibility Mode and Superdepth 3D are options and can provide a good experience, along with CM Unleased and Helifaxe's integration of SuperDepth 3D into his wrapper. So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided. If games like Rage 2, Tale of Innocence and others get fixes posted, what incentive is there for lurkers/users to contribute to any future development of the wrapper until it's too late. It's Open Sourced, so if it dies, it could be resurrected. But let's be honest, the chances of 3Dmigoto continuing without DSS and bo3b is exxxxtremely unlikely. What's everyone elses thoughts? Taking a wait or see approach will likely lead to the end of 3Dmigoto. So as previously stated, other than fixes to existing releases, all other fixes should not be posted and should be limited to the new ecosystem that evolves going forward and whatever distribution system that it uses regarding contributors. Otherwise there is no incentive to contribute sooner, rather than later, when it's too late......
So official 3D Vision support had ended.

DSS and bo3b have expressed interest in "moving forward". It's a do or die type of situation for future triple AAA releases. Either we start "moving forward" soon or watch any hope of stereoscopic gaming using 3Dmigoto type fixes die with the abandonment of the wrapper.

Compatibility Mode and Superdepth 3D are options and can provide a good experience, along with CM Unleased and Helifaxe's integration of SuperDepth 3D into his wrapper.

So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided.

If games like Rage 2, Tale of Innocence and others get fixes posted, what incentive is there for lurkers/users to contribute to any future development of the wrapper until it's too late.

It's Open Sourced, so if it dies, it could be resurrected. But let's be honest, the chances of 3Dmigoto continuing without DSS and bo3b is exxxxtremely unlikely.


What's everyone elses thoughts?

Taking a wait or see approach will likely lead to the end of 3Dmigoto.

So as previously stated, other than fixes to existing releases, all other fixes should not be posted and should be limited to the new ecosystem that evolves going forward and whatever distribution system that it uses regarding contributors.

Otherwise there is no incentive to contribute sooner, rather than later, when it's too late......

#1
Posted 05/14/2019 08:55 PM   
[quote="DarkStarSword"]Going forward, Bo3b and I have been talking about the possibility of writing a replacement for the 3D Vision driver. As it turns out, we already have quite a lot of pieces in place that we need to do this, but there is still plenty of work left do to. So, Bo3b and I do see a future for stereoscopic 3D, but - although we do see a future here, there is a lot of work to do to make it happen and we both agree that this is not something we could really do for free. [/quote] Quoted from [url=https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1101775/3d-vision/future-of-3d-vision-support-official-announcement-from-nvidia-/post/6005820/#6005820]here[/url] <---- click here to see the "full" post
DarkStarSword said:Going forward, Bo3b and I have been talking about the possibility of writing a replacement for the 3D Vision driver. As it turns out, we already have quite a lot of pieces in place that we need to do this, but there is still plenty of work left do to.


So, Bo3b and I do see a future for stereoscopic 3D, but - although we do see a future here, there is a lot of work to do to make it happen and we both agree that this is not something we could really do for free.


Quoted from here <---- click here to see the "full" post

#2
Posted 05/14/2019 08:56 PM   
It's time to talk about the elephant in the room, less he trample all of our hopes for any type of future that includes 3Dmigoto. Numerous posters expressed interest in supporting such an endeavor, but bo3b and DSS have been somewhat silent on all of it. My thoughts are that there are not enough users/posters that are currently onboard to even get the basic traction needed to move forward in a sustainable manner.
It's time to talk about the elephant in the room, less he trample all of our hopes for any type of future that includes 3Dmigoto.

Numerous posters expressed interest in supporting such an endeavor, but bo3b and DSS have been somewhat silent on all of it.

My thoughts are that there are not enough users/posters that are currently onboard to even get the basic traction needed to move forward in a sustainable manner.

#3
Posted 05/14/2019 09:20 PM   
Well... I always said... that we should not piggy-back on Nvidia's 3D Vision driver, but instead make our own 3D Stereo Driver. Getting the emitter to work on any driver version shouldn't be impossible as I have already done it in Linux (where 3D Vision driver was non-existent), so we should be able to enable the 3D Vision Emitter and glasses in Windows as well... (sure it will not be as flawless as the official support-which now is non-existent, but it works). Now, neither making a Stereo3D driver, not making the driver work beyond the official supported drivers is a "walk-in-the-park" aka easy. But not impossible. I guess it all depends on how many gamers/users will actually want that. If we are like 10, sure we can do it for us, but I think all those 10 should have a tight collaboration. If we are "Legion" this changes things ;) (At least this is my POV - take it as you wish:) )
Well... I always said... that we should not piggy-back on Nvidia's 3D Vision driver, but instead make our own 3D Stereo Driver.
Getting the emitter to work on any driver version shouldn't be impossible as I have already done it in Linux (where 3D Vision driver was non-existent), so we should be able to enable the 3D Vision Emitter and glasses in Windows as well... (sure it will not be as flawless as the official support-which now is non-existent, but it works).

Now, neither making a Stereo3D driver, not making the driver work beyond the official supported drivers is a "walk-in-the-park" aka easy. But not impossible. I guess it all depends on how many gamers/users will actually want that. If we are like 10, sure we can do it for us, but I think all those 10 should have a tight collaboration. If we are "Legion" this changes things ;) (At least this is my POV - take it as you wish:) )

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3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
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etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
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(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#4
Posted 05/14/2019 09:35 PM   
I think more than few are interested to financially participate. But of course for this some cornerstones of such an endeavour must be set up. In the end it should however not depend on those contributions; they wont be big enough to really support anyone or be really a counterpart to all the work that a driver would require.
I think more than few are interested to financially participate. But of course for this some cornerstones of such an endeavour must be set up. In the end it should however not depend on those contributions; they wont be big enough to really support anyone or be really a counterpart to all the work that a driver would require.

Intel Core i7-3820, 4 X 3,60 GHz overclocked to 4,50 GHz ; EVGA Titan X 12VRAM ; 16 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR-1600 (4x 4 GB) ; Asus VG278H 27-inch incl. 3D vision 2 glasses, integrated transmitter ; Xbox One Elite wireless controller ; Windows 10HTC VIVE 2,5 m2 roomscale3D VISION GAMERS - VISIT ME ON STEAM and feel free to add me: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198064106555 YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1UE5TPoF0HX0HVpF_E4uPQ STEAM CURATOR: https://store.steampowered.com/curator/33611530-Streaming-Deluxe/ Image

#5
Posted 05/14/2019 09:42 PM   
From my POV, I don't think posting/contributing to new fixes and contributing $$ for the development of the new solution are mutually exclusive (if I am understanding you correctly, D-Man.) I, for one, will contribute for both. If there are not enough of us that are willing/able to sustain both simultaneously, then I would agree that the priority has to be directing our resources toward developing the solution that extends the life of the tech.
From my POV, I don't think posting/contributing to new fixes and contributing $$ for the development of the new solution are mutually exclusive (if I am understanding you correctly, D-Man.)

I, for one, will contribute for both. If there are not enough of us that are willing/able to sustain both simultaneously, then I would agree that the priority has to be directing our resources toward developing the solution that extends the life of the tech.

#6
Posted 05/14/2019 09:52 PM   
I'm onboard and I will contribute from the start. I would like to state all the user's in this forum realize that it's a do or die now user's have thousands of dollars tie up in 3D related hardware (monitors, 3DTVs and projectors). So I think everyone in the forum knows and will do there best to keep 3D going.
I'm onboard and I will contribute from the start.
I would like to state all the user's in this forum realize that it's a do or die now user's have thousands of dollars tie up in 3D related hardware (monitors, 3DTVs and projectors).


So I think everyone in the forum knows and will do there best to keep 3D going.

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

#7
Posted 05/14/2019 09:59 PM   
During this interim period, I suggest continuing/starting paypal or patreon support for DSS, in addition to other shaderhacker contributors. In a PM to DSS, I have advocated substituting NVidia's VRWorks (and OpenXR) library calls for current 3D Vision library links, if possible - as an alternative to building a new 3Dmigoto foundation from scratch. Perhaps NVidia might even support such an effort, if it included a VR display option? See [url]https://devblogs.nvidia.com/turing-multi-view-rendering-vrworks/[/url].
During this interim period, I suggest continuing/starting paypal or patreon support for DSS, in addition to other shaderhacker contributors.

In a PM to DSS, I have advocated substituting NVidia's VRWorks (and OpenXR) library calls for current 3D Vision library links, if possible - as an alternative to building a new 3Dmigoto foundation from scratch. Perhaps NVidia might even support such an effort, if it included a VR display option? See https://devblogs.nvidia.com/turing-multi-view-rendering-vrworks/.

#8
Posted 05/14/2019 10:12 PM   
[quote="D-Man11"]So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided.[/quote] Nah. I'll keep releasing and updating fixes for years, for as long as I can use my hardware. I don't want to hold any fix hostage when people could be enjoying it. I won't mind "porting" a lot of my fixes to whatever new 3D technologies appear, if they have different tools for shader editing. I hope bo3b and DSS can make something happen. I want to keep playing in 3D forever. Rage 2 uses Vulkan, by the way.
D-Man11 said:So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided.

Nah. I'll keep releasing and updating fixes for years, for as long as I can use my hardware. I don't want to hold any fix hostage when people could be enjoying it.

I won't mind "porting" a lot of my fixes to whatever new 3D technologies appear, if they have different tools for shader editing. I hope bo3b and DSS can make something happen. I want to keep playing in 3D forever.

Rage 2 uses Vulkan, by the way.

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Donations account: masterotakusuko@gmail.com

#9
Posted 05/14/2019 10:17 PM   
I haven't contributed very much in the way of comments in this forum since I joined it in 2010, but I have followed it, enjoyed it, occasionally posted replies and created topics, and have learned much from it. I have been in awe of and deeply grateful for those of you who have worked tirelessly to create tools, make game fixes, and more. Though I don't use 3D Vision for gaming very often these days in the advent of VR, I truly never want to lose the ability to play PC games in 3D and especially the couple hundred user created Portal 2 maps that I've subscribed to over the past 7 years. If this group somehow keeps 3D gaming alive for the foreseeable future, I will happily contribute financially to the cause and wish I was capable of doing more.
I haven't contributed very much in the way of comments in this forum since I joined it in 2010, but I have followed it, enjoyed it, occasionally posted replies and created topics, and have learned much from it. I have been in awe of and deeply grateful for those of you who have worked tirelessly to create tools, make game fixes, and more. Though I don't use 3D Vision for gaming very often these days in the advent of VR, I truly never want to lose the ability to play PC games in 3D and especially the couple hundred user created Portal 2 maps that I've subscribed to over the past 7 years. If this group somehow keeps 3D gaming alive for the foreseeable future, I will happily contribute financially to the cause and wish I was capable of doing more.

#10
Posted 05/14/2019 10:38 PM   
[quote="masterotaku"]I don't want to hold any fix hostage when people could be enjoying it. I want to keep playing in 3D forever.[/quote] I'm just saying, that as long as fixes are coming forth, there is little incentive for fence sitters to hop on board. IMHO, any future endeavors require a larger participation other than the small forum poster base. I still think it would be prudent to withhold fixes until such a time as a path is laid out to continue wrapper development. Unless helixblog users come out of the closet and aid in the effort, I do not see how it would be possible for a small minority of people to support anything going forward. Personally, I think it's the end, because there are too few of us. While there might be others around the world that would offer support, if they knew it was needed. There are many that would simply not step up to help in any way. Though some certainly do not have the means due to so, because of the economic conditions in their country.
masterotaku said:I don't want to hold any fix hostage when people could be enjoying it.

I want to keep playing in 3D forever.


I'm just saying, that as long as fixes are coming forth, there is little incentive for fence sitters to hop on board. IMHO, any future endeavors require a larger participation other than the small forum poster base.

I still think it would be prudent to withhold fixes until such a time as a path is laid out to continue wrapper development. Unless helixblog users come out of the closet and aid in the effort, I do not see how it would be possible for a small minority of people to support anything going forward.

Personally, I think it's the end, because there are too few of us.

While there might be others around the world that would offer support, if they knew it was needed. There are many that would simply not step up to help in any way. Though some certainly do not have the means due to so, because of the economic conditions in their country.

#11
Posted 05/14/2019 11:21 PM   
Anyone have a guess as to how many supporters would be on board? Certainly 100? I would think 200? I doubt it How many do you think that we would need to be sustainable? I think at least 500
Anyone have a guess as to how many supporters would be on board?

Certainly 100? I would think

200? I doubt it

How many do you think that we would need to be sustainable?

I think at least 500

#12
Posted 05/14/2019 11:25 PM   
Could helixmod include a poll to collect potential donor/user email address and amount user could contribute per month? We need more quantifiable information to move forward (including source of eqzitara’s download spike)...
Could helixmod include a poll to collect potential donor/user email address and amount user could contribute per month? We need more quantifiable information to move forward (including source of eqzitara’s download spike)...

#13
Posted 05/14/2019 11:44 PM   
That would be a great idea. I suggested before that helixmod require that people register to download fixes. So that an accurate user base profile could be compiled. As it is, there is no way to tell, every number could be skewed by anything. Lets say that game XYXY had 600 downloads, but the fix was revised 6 times. Does that mean that 100 users downloaded each version release? Thus accounting for all 600 downloads. Obviously not, probably a few down loaded the first, a few more the second, a few more each time. So how many actually downloaded the final version? There is no way of telling. How many redownloaded the final version, because of a hard drive failure, game re-install, OS reinstall or any other reason. There is just no way to tell. So in the end, we know there wasn't 600, but likely less than 500 or even 400. Just a random example, bo3b posted some statistics several years ago, but I can't find the post. Anyhow, the numbers are useless, unless the downloaders are tracked. Even then, fixes can be shared or hosted elsewhere.
That would be a great idea. I suggested before that helixmod require that people register to download fixes. So that an accurate user base profile could be compiled.

As it is, there is no way to tell, every number could be skewed by anything.

Lets say that game XYXY had 600 downloads, but the fix was revised 6 times. Does that mean that 100 users downloaded each version release? Thus accounting for all 600 downloads.

Obviously not, probably a few down loaded the first, a few more the second, a few more each time. So how many actually downloaded the final version? There is no way of telling. How many redownloaded the final version, because of a hard drive failure, game re-install, OS reinstall or any other reason. There is just no way to tell.

So in the end, we know there wasn't 600, but likely less than 500 or even 400.

Just a random example, bo3b posted some statistics several years ago, but I can't find the post. Anyhow, the numbers are useless, unless the downloaders are tracked. Even then, fixes can be shared or hosted elsewhere.

#14
Posted 05/14/2019 11:56 PM   
For me, I don't think we needed another thread, because Moving Forward sounds a lot like Future Of to me. That's why I worked the back channels to unlock the main thread. [quote="D-Man11"]So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided. If games like Rage 2, Tale of Innocence and others get fixes posted, what incentive is there for lurkers/users to contribute to any future development of the wrapper until it's too late.[/quote]I understand the motivation here to get people off the sidelines and more active, but in my opinion, this is a terrible idea. Holding fixes back until a mythical future where lurkers are more engaged would simply kill us faster. The lurkers/part-timers don't care that much, or they'd be more engaged. They probably would not even realize that no fixes were coming out. They would simply move on. [quote="D-Man11"]Anyone have a guess as to how many supporters would be on board? Certainly 100? I would think 200? I doubt it How many do you think that we would need to be sustainable? I think at least 500[/quote]This was actually part of my asking in the main thread about how many people might contribute and what they might feel is reasonable. Part of that was to try to get a rough feel for the level of support. Everyone who posts here are pretty reasonable and willing to contribute far beyond what should be necessary. I think we all appreciate the comments from everyone, and the level of support. But... my take is that we are just too few to make a difference here. To do this kind of work, it's going to take at least a full year of full-time effort from DarkStarSword, or 2 years of full-time effort from me. (Helifax could do this too, at 1 year of full-time effort) None of us can justify that level of time. Back of the envelope calculation, we are off by an order of magnitude in terms of financial support. If everyone here donated to their maximum ability, we are in the very roughly $5,000 range. Full time engineering for people at our level pays roughly $200,000/year now. Even if we as engineers bite the bullet and go for low pay for something we want to work on, none of us could justify going below tight living expenses of roughly $50,000/year. We are off by a factor of 10, and that's not a one-time price, that's a yearly price. This is why I was asking about a yearly fee as well. I do not think this can be done on a donation/patreon basis, there simply are not enough of us who care. It's not impossible that we could make a go of it as a commercial product, where if you want to use it, you have to buy it. That gets people of the sidelines, and straight into the commercial aspect, where they are buying a product. Everyone understands this, and if we were the only game in town, we could conceivably get the 1,000 people at $50/year that it would take. This was actually part of my goal with getting a VR TV out the door as a commercial product. Not that it itself would make money, but would provide direct feedback on how many VR people might be interested in 3D, if it were cheap. This is less sure today, because Oculus just prematurely destroyed the Rift side of the market. Also, freakin' hard. It's limping along at present, but I don't think it's currently viable. It seems fairly clear that VorpX already fills this gap for people with VR headsets. Multiple people have posted that VorpX is terrific, so it's hardly worth trying to create another one. VorpX is also a good example of someone who can at least eke out a living doing 3D middleware. To answer the OP- it's still not impossible that this happens, but it's not going to be fast, and I think it is clear that it cannot be done with donations. Being a commercial product is the way to get people off the sidelines. In the meantime, we still have a viable way to game, and we can still fix AAA games until drivers start to get in the way. Dual booting will last indefinitely for the back catalog, and maybe we wind up settling for that. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
For me, I don't think we needed another thread, because Moving Forward sounds a lot like Future Of to me. That's why I worked the back channels to unlock the main thread.


D-Man11 said:So imo, all shaderhackers should continue working on fixes, but should no longer release any, until the future is decided.

If games like Rage 2, Tale of Innocence and others get fixes posted, what incentive is there for lurkers/users to contribute to any future development of the wrapper until it's too late.
I understand the motivation here to get people off the sidelines and more active, but in my opinion, this is a terrible idea.

Holding fixes back until a mythical future where lurkers are more engaged would simply kill us faster. The lurkers/part-timers don't care that much, or they'd be more engaged. They probably would not even realize that no fixes were coming out. They would simply move on.


D-Man11 said:Anyone have a guess as to how many supporters would be on board?

Certainly 100? I would think

200? I doubt it

How many do you think that we would need to be sustainable?

I think at least 500
This was actually part of my asking in the main thread about how many people might contribute and what they might feel is reasonable. Part of that was to try to get a rough feel for the level of support.

Everyone who posts here are pretty reasonable and willing to contribute far beyond what should be necessary. I think we all appreciate the comments from everyone, and the level of support.


But... my take is that we are just too few to make a difference here. To do this kind of work, it's going to take at least a full year of full-time effort from DarkStarSword, or 2 years of full-time effort from me. (Helifax could do this too, at 1 year of full-time effort) None of us can justify that level of time.

Back of the envelope calculation, we are off by an order of magnitude in terms of financial support. If everyone here donated to their maximum ability, we are in the very roughly $5,000 range. Full time engineering for people at our level pays roughly $200,000/year now. Even if we as engineers bite the bullet and go for low pay for something we want to work on, none of us could justify going below tight living expenses of roughly $50,000/year.

We are off by a factor of 10, and that's not a one-time price, that's a yearly price. This is why I was asking about a yearly fee as well. I do not think this can be done on a donation/patreon basis, there simply are not enough of us who care.


It's not impossible that we could make a go of it as a commercial product, where if you want to use it, you have to buy it. That gets people of the sidelines, and straight into the commercial aspect, where they are buying a product. Everyone understands this, and if we were the only game in town, we could conceivably get the 1,000 people at $50/year that it would take.


This was actually part of my goal with getting a VR TV out the door as a commercial product. Not that it itself would make money, but would provide direct feedback on how many VR people might be interested in 3D, if it were cheap. This is less sure today, because Oculus just prematurely destroyed the Rift side of the market. Also, freakin' hard. It's limping along at present, but I don't think it's currently viable.

It seems fairly clear that VorpX already fills this gap for people with VR headsets. Multiple people have posted that VorpX is terrific, so it's hardly worth trying to create another one. VorpX is also a good example of someone who can at least eke out a living doing 3D middleware.


To answer the OP- it's still not impossible that this happens, but it's not going to be fast, and I think it is clear that it cannot be done with donations. Being a commercial product is the way to get people off the sidelines.

In the meantime, we still have a viable way to game, and we can still fix AAA games until drivers start to get in the way. Dual booting will last indefinitely for the back catalog, and maybe we wind up settling for that. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

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#15
Posted 05/15/2019 12:51 AM   
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