Toyification - a list of games that achieve this effect Please submit
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Hi Guys!
Well... I've been meaning to get involved on these boards for a while now, but it took this thread to pull me outta the woodwork :D
So, here's what I have to say:
Toyification is a great word to describe this phenomenon. Defining toyification as "100% depth plus a ton of convergance" is highly unscientific and unobservant.
You may as well attribute the wind in the air to big fans in the sky... sure desk fans can make some wind, but WIND is not caused by fans... capisci? So SURE, for a game or two you may need to set depth to 100% in order to achieve toyification, but is toyification CAUSED by 100% depth setting? No. Most of the screenshots posted in this thread are a joke and are horribly mis-adjusted for the stereo settings, especially if toyification was the intent of the screenshots.
I'm sorry, don't hate me. I'm not trying to jump in here and start slinging insults on my very first post, so please don't stoop to that level and assume my intention is so. However if you MUST hate me for what I have to say, so be it... but I don't wanna hear a bunch'a whining about it. I just wanna provide some clarification on what toyification OUGHT to be defined as.
[b]Toyification:[/b] When your X, Y, and Z dimensions are perfectly matched in a 1:1:1 ratio. Once this is achieved, in-game character models appear as if they are living, moving action figures (hence TOYification) running around in a tiny world that your monitor is a window into... creating the same feeling of "playing with toys" that comes from childhood adventures with Legos or GI Joes. Obviously, this would apply to more than just CHARACTER models, but also to the modeling of objects and world details too.
Now, look at those Torchlight screenshots. Are the ones that are "1T" and "2T" supposed to be the same as screenshots "1" and "2" but toyified? If so I'm sorry, but you sir are greatly confused. All the torchlight screenshots with a T after the number are GROSSLY out of proportion and nowhere near a 1:1:1 ratio of X, Y, and Z dimensions.
Setting your depth and convergence CORRECTLY will achieve toyification in just about every game. Thus, this list should be considered a list of games which can toyificate with no other visual bugs such as wrong-depth HUD elements, 2D shadows, or nose-depth ground (just LOOK at the two WoW screenies that say "should" in the name... ICK!). Depth and convergence settings are on a person-to-person basis, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Setting your depth at 100% is very inaccurate and will rarely result in PROPER toyification.
Based on the screenshots I see around these boards, I start to wonder if I'm the only person who goes around in their day-to-day life alternately closing each eye one at a time to get an idea of how much depth separation and convergence there is in different real life situations.
Try looking at a flagpole or other such vertical object that is in the range of 10-15 feet away and focus at something 20-30 feet away. The amount of separation between the double image of the flagpole is quite small, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch if measured against a ruler held at arms distance.
Since in a video game world we are not looking at objects that are actually 10-15 feet away... but rather to the scaled-down character they would be, so you must scale your parallax (what we call "depth" in the S3D settings) accordingly.
Additionally, in real life when you look at an object that is farther away, your eyes will focus at a different depth. With a computer monitor (even when in stereoscopic 3D mode) your monitor is always at the same distance from your eyes and thus there is only ONE focal distance that will result in unblurred images.
Because of this discontinuity between perceived depth and necessary focal distance when using stereoscopic 3D, it essential to keep your parallax (depth) adjustments in a more realistic range... in order to prevent eyestrain.
Take the GTA4 balcony screenshot for example. Just look at the railing running away from you on Niko's left (well I guess it's actually behind him) with your 3D glasses OFF. Now can you HONESTLY say that if you were looking at a railing from approximately 10 feet up and 10 feet away that the angle difference between the left eye and right eye would be THAT much? I think not. If you say yes, I say OGRE, cause you've got some eyes that are FAR apart from each other in your head!
Well... I've been meaning to get involved on these boards for a while now, but it took this thread to pull me outta the woodwork :D
So, here's what I have to say:
Toyification is a great word to describe this phenomenon. Defining toyification as "100% depth plus a ton of convergance" is highly unscientific and unobservant.
You may as well attribute the wind in the air to big fans in the sky... sure desk fans can make some wind, but WIND is not caused by fans... capisci? So SURE, for a game or two you may need to set depth to 100% in order to achieve toyification, but is toyification CAUSED by 100% depth setting? No. Most of the screenshots posted in this thread are a joke and are horribly mis-adjusted for the stereo settings, especially if toyification was the intent of the screenshots.
I'm sorry, don't hate me. I'm not trying to jump in here and start slinging insults on my very first post, so please don't stoop to that level and assume my intention is so. However if you MUST hate me for what I have to say, so be it... but I don't wanna hear a bunch'a whining about it. I just wanna provide some clarification on what toyification OUGHT to be defined as.
Toyification: When your X, Y, and Z dimensions are perfectly matched in a 1:1:1 ratio. Once this is achieved, in-game character models appear as if they are living, moving action figures (hence TOYification) running around in a tiny world that your monitor is a window into... creating the same feeling of "playing with toys" that comes from childhood adventures with Legos or GI Joes. Obviously, this would apply to more than just CHARACTER models, but also to the modeling of objects and world details too.
Now, look at those Torchlight screenshots. Are the ones that are "1T" and "2T" supposed to be the same as screenshots "1" and "2" but toyified? If so I'm sorry, but you sir are greatly confused. All the torchlight screenshots with a T after the number are GROSSLY out of proportion and nowhere near a 1:1:1 ratio of X, Y, and Z dimensions.
Setting your depth and convergence CORRECTLY will achieve toyification in just about every game. Thus, this list should be considered a list of games which can toyificate with no other visual bugs such as wrong-depth HUD elements, 2D shadows, or nose-depth ground (just LOOK at the two WoW screenies that say "should" in the name... ICK!). Depth and convergence settings are on a person-to-person basis, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Setting your depth at 100% is very inaccurate and will rarely result in PROPER toyification.
Based on the screenshots I see around these boards, I start to wonder if I'm the only person who goes around in their day-to-day life alternately closing each eye one at a time to get an idea of how much depth separation and convergence there is in different real life situations.
Try looking at a flagpole or other such vertical object that is in the range of 10-15 feet away and focus at something 20-30 feet away. The amount of separation between the double image of the flagpole is quite small, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch if measured against a ruler held at arms distance.
Since in a video game world we are not looking at objects that are actually 10-15 feet away... but rather to the scaled-down character they would be, so you must scale your parallax (what we call "depth" in the S3D settings) accordingly.
Additionally, in real life when you look at an object that is farther away, your eyes will focus at a different depth. With a computer monitor (even when in stereoscopic 3D mode) your monitor is always at the same distance from your eyes and thus there is only ONE focal distance that will result in unblurred images.
Because of this discontinuity between perceived depth and necessary focal distance when using stereoscopic 3D, it essential to keep your parallax (depth) adjustments in a more realistic range... in order to prevent eyestrain.
Take the GTA4 balcony screenshot for example. Just look at the railing running away from you on Niko's left (well I guess it's actually behind him) with your 3D glasses OFF. Now can you HONESTLY say that if you were looking at a railing from approximately 10 feet up and 10 feet away that the angle difference between the left eye and right eye would be THAT much? I think not. If you say yes, I say OGRE, cause you've got some eyes that are FAR apart from each other in your head!
Welcome to the boards and thanks for a great post!
No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? [i][color="#800080"]Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.[/color][/i]
I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
The 100% depth thingy was my ignorance. On my monitor that where it begins. Anything less than 100% and my games never produce infinite depth (divergence = distance between eyes). Obviously on a bigger screen or projector, infinite depth can be achieved at low depth.
The screenshots you mentioned are perfectly comfortable for my eyes on my monitor. I hear people talking about eyestrain but never once have I heard a case of it. People have suffered motion sickness which I think is cool as it shows the part of the brain which deals with sight (by far the largest organell in the brain) is fooled by the 3D! :) My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Welcome to the boards and thanks for a great post!
No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.
I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
The 100% depth thingy was my ignorance. On my monitor that where it begins. Anything less than 100% and my games never produce infinite depth (divergence = distance between eyes). Obviously on a bigger screen or projector, infinite depth can be achieved at low depth.
The screenshots you mentioned are perfectly comfortable for my eyes on my monitor. I hear people talking about eyestrain but never once have I heard a case of it. People have suffered motion sickness which I think is cool as it shows the part of the brain which deals with sight (by far the largest organell in the brain) is fooled by the 3D! :) My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Andy
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
[quote name='shaolin_monkey' post='1088011' date='Jul 14 2010, 08:28 PM']Has anyone mentioned Tomb Raider Underworld? Geat Toyification in that! Lara Croft looks like an animated Barbie doll! /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />[/quote]
Mate!
That was the first game I played after I noticed the effect and sussed out how to get it! I remember thinking I hate it! I love it! I hate it! I love it etc etc
Loved it won.
TR:U has been on the list since the first edit. :)
[quote name='shaolin_monkey' post='1088011' date='Jul 14 2010, 08:28 PM']Has anyone mentioned Tomb Raider Underworld? Geat Toyification in that! Lara Croft looks like an animated Barbie doll! /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
Mate!
That was the first game I played after I noticed the effect and sussed out how to get it! I remember thinking I hate it! I love it! I hate it! I love it etc etc
Loved it won.
TR:U has been on the list since the first edit. :)
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
I was going to say Street fighter 4 but it looks like someone already has, i tried the benchmark demo and played around with it that way, it was really funny because it was so extreme i couldnt focus on the background at all and for the short time i could focus on the characters it seemed like they were fighting on the frame of my glasses! awesome effect but painful to the eyes, could never play it normally like that but still looked really cool!
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
I was going to say Street fighter 4 but it looks like someone already has, i tried the benchmark demo and played around with it that way, it was really funny because it was so extreme i couldnt focus on the background at all and for the short time i could focus on the characters it seemed like they were fighting on the frame of my glasses! awesome effect but painful to the eyes, could never play it normally like that but still looked really cool!
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
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[quote name='Crashezz' post='1088363' date='Jul 15 2010, 05:40 AM']I was going to say Street fighter 4 but it looks like someone already has, i tried the benchmark demo and played around with it that way, it was really funny because it was so extreme i couldnt focus on the background at all and for the short time i could focus on the characters it seemed like they were fighting on the frame of my glasses! awesome effect but painful to the eyes, could never play it normally like that but still looked really cool!
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)[/quote]
Yes. It looks pretty awful with the default settings, but if you play with them enough, it toys up great! It still has the same U3 engine issues, but bringing the convergence point back to your character at least eliminates the double fog shadows around him.
[quote name='Crashezz' post='1088363' date='Jul 15 2010, 05:40 AM']I was going to say Street fighter 4 but it looks like someone already has, i tried the benchmark demo and played around with it that way, it was really funny because it was so extreme i couldnt focus on the background at all and for the short time i could focus on the characters it seemed like they were fighting on the frame of my glasses! awesome effect but painful to the eyes, could never play it normally like that but still looked really cool!
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
Yes. It looks pretty awful with the default settings, but if you play with them enough, it toys up great! It still has the same U3 engine issues, but bringing the convergence point back to your character at least eliminates the double fog shadows around him.
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Another game that toyificates well, Tiger Woods 08. It looks fantastic in s3D as well, had a little bit of ghosting on the ball while its in mid flight but other than that looked superb, looks really trippy when "toyed" up as well.
Another game that toyificates well, Tiger Woods 08. It looks fantastic in s3D as well, had a little bit of ghosting on the ball while its in mid flight but other than that looked superb, looks really trippy when "toyed" up as well.
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Another vote for World of Warcraft. I achieved the toyification effect last night, and it was fab! It looked like my toy Tauren was running around in a kids Early Learning Centre castle playset. It was most uncanny, but looked great!
Another vote for World of Warcraft. I achieved the toyification effect last night, and it was fab! It looked like my toy Tauren was running around in a kids Early Learning Centre castle playset. It was most uncanny, but looked great!
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Does anyone else notice flashing at the start of the map?
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
If you have a 22" monitor set depth to 100%. Then increase convergence using Ctrl F6. After a short while you should get the effect! :)
Not that I have tried because I havent paid my subscription since it was fixed.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? [i][color="#800080"]Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.[/color][/i][/quote]
HAHA, that's exactly when I ponder stereo vision the most too... during my drive to school using the dirt on my windshield :D
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.[/quote]
Well... I must say I'm a bit lost now. Could you PLEASE give us a new definition of toyification, then? ...something Webster grade?
This is not what I would consider a good definition... it's full of vague references and lacks concrete scientific references, things that are known terms like "screen depth" or "pop-out" or linking to a wikipedia article to help define the terms which you are using to define your new term can help make a good definition:
[quote]What is toyification?
For those not in the know, 'toyification' is the unique effect that can only be achieved with stereo 3D. It is caused, I believe, by slightly stretching a 'fully deep' gameworld so it extends, pops out, slightly into the space infront of the screen. Once achieved, the game world changes into a distinctive, high definition, virtual model world. I guess it is result of perception - seeing your full sized character, model sized, in front of the screen; this obviously extends into the rest of the gameworld.[/quote]
So... enlighten me, please. I've been getting several PMs a week ever since I made my initial post in this thread from people who are asking me for advice on what toyification is and how to achieve it... they all seem to think I'm some kind of expert or something, but currently all I can really tell them is that it's a bunch of bogus, sorry dude... but I can't exactly promote something if I don't actually know what it is, right? Or at least I don't wanna be promoting toyification as ONE thing when the very guy who coined the term is telling me that it's actually ANOTHER thing... in this case a thing which I guess I don't actually understand.
Once we have a better definition, then we can provide better instructions than just:
[quote]How do you get toyification?
Simple. Set depth to 100% and add convergence.[/quote]
I mean that doesn't actually TELL people HOW to get toyification... you may as well teach someone to drive by saying "you turn the key, mash the pedals, and move the wheel" ...yeah that's the gist of it, but that certainly doesn't teach someone HOW to drive.
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.[/quote]
Now, when you go and say something as outlandish as this, I can't help but provide a rebuttal.
See... stereoscopic 3D is pretty different from REAL WORLD stereo vision.
IRL, when we look at something far away, our eyes not only FOCUS on the far away object, but they also adjust their vergence point (see: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence[/url] ) in order to maintain proper binocular vision.
Then when we look at something close to us, our eyes once again adjust BOTH their focal point and their vergence point to correspond with the closer object... so there's TWO things our eyes are changing: their FOCAL point and their VERGENCE point.
With 3D Vision, however, our simulated depth ONLY simulates the vergence aspect of real life stereo vision. The FOCAL POINT is ALWAYS your monitor or screen... because if you WEREN'T focused on your screen, everything would be blurry. So even though your brain is tricked into seeing "depth" and thus your eyes are adjusting their vergence point to accommodate this virtual depth, your actual FOCAL point (the point at which the lenses of your eyes make the image crisp and not blurry) does NOT change.
Thus, I've gotta call the placebo card here, sorry man... but those sugar pills are some powerful stuff ;)
I'm sorry to be so "confrontational" here... and really my intention is not to create an ARGUMENT but to facilitate a good DEBATE... there's a big difference: one involves anger and the other is science in the making! So lets have some fun with this debate in the name of science, for the greater good of all! I only hope in the end we wind up with a very good, concrete, well cited and referenced definition of what toyification is and how it can be achieved.
Please see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28eye%29"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28eye%29[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergence_%28eye%29"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergence_%28eye%29[/url]
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.
HAHA, that's exactly when I ponder stereo vision the most too... during my drive to school using the dirt on my windshield :D
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
Well... I must say I'm a bit lost now. Could you PLEASE give us a new definition of toyification, then? ...something Webster grade?
This is not what I would consider a good definition... it's full of vague references and lacks concrete scientific references, things that are known terms like "screen depth" or "pop-out" or linking to a wikipedia article to help define the terms which you are using to define your new term can help make a good definition:
What is toyification?
For those not in the know, 'toyification' is the unique effect that can only be achieved with stereo 3D. It is caused, I believe, by slightly stretching a 'fully deep' gameworld so it extends, pops out, slightly into the space infront of the screen. Once achieved, the game world changes into a distinctive, high definition, virtual model world. I guess it is result of perception - seeing your full sized character, model sized, in front of the screen; this obviously extends into the rest of the gameworld.
So... enlighten me, please. I've been getting several PMs a week ever since I made my initial post in this thread from people who are asking me for advice on what toyification is and how to achieve it... they all seem to think I'm some kind of expert or something, but currently all I can really tell them is that it's a bunch of bogus, sorry dude... but I can't exactly promote something if I don't actually know what it is, right? Or at least I don't wanna be promoting toyification as ONE thing when the very guy who coined the term is telling me that it's actually ANOTHER thing... in this case a thing which I guess I don't actually understand.
Once we have a better definition, then we can provide better instructions than just:
How do you get toyification?
Simple. Set depth to 100% and add convergence.
I mean that doesn't actually TELL people HOW to get toyification... you may as well teach someone to drive by saying "you turn the key, mash the pedals, and move the wheel" ...yeah that's the gist of it, but that certainly doesn't teach someone HOW to drive.
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Now, when you go and say something as outlandish as this, I can't help but provide a rebuttal.
See... stereoscopic 3D is pretty different from REAL WORLD stereo vision.
IRL, when we look at something far away, our eyes not only FOCUS on the far away object, but they also adjust their vergence point (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence ) in order to maintain proper binocular vision.
Then when we look at something close to us, our eyes once again adjust BOTH their focal point and their vergence point to correspond with the closer object... so there's TWO things our eyes are changing: their FOCAL point and their VERGENCE point.
With 3D Vision, however, our simulated depth ONLY simulates the vergence aspect of real life stereo vision. The FOCAL POINT is ALWAYS your monitor or screen... because if you WEREN'T focused on your screen, everything would be blurry. So even though your brain is tricked into seeing "depth" and thus your eyes are adjusting their vergence point to accommodate this virtual depth, your actual FOCAL point (the point at which the lenses of your eyes make the image crisp and not blurry) does NOT change.
Thus, I've gotta call the placebo card here, sorry man... but those sugar pills are some powerful stuff ;)
I'm sorry to be so "confrontational" here... and really my intention is not to create an ARGUMENT but to facilitate a good DEBATE... there's a big difference: one involves anger and the other is science in the making! So lets have some fun with this debate in the name of science, for the greater good of all! I only hope in the end we wind up with a very good, concrete, well cited and referenced definition of what toyification is and how it can be achieved.
Please insert 'when' and, as you say, change divergence to vergence... so it should read infinite depth (when vergence = distance between eyes) or however you would explain how we perceive infinit distance when the rays of light which enter each eye from a single object are parallel.
Please insert 'when' and, as you say, change divergence to vergence... so it should read infinite depth (when vergence = distance between eyes) or however you would explain how we perceive infinit distance when the rays of light which enter each eye from a single object are parallel.
Cheers
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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That noise you might have heard last night was me thinking about the placebo effect. The thing is, I know my eyesight has got better. It’s not perfect by a long shot but it is definitely better.
I started thinking about the eye and how we focus on objects. This is purely thoughts based on my basic biological knowledge so I might be way out here [i][b]not a first ;)[/b][/i]. I’m going to ignore the iris because I’m fairly sure its main purpose is to moderate light.
What I understand/remember is that the retina changes shape to adjust the focal point. As was pointed out, the focal point is always going to be at screen depth. However, the direction each eye is pointing needs also to be taken into account. (I know I have the physics right about this bit; my math department told me so.) As we look at increasingly distant objects, the precision required for each eye to point towards the required direction becomes finer. Also, the eyes need to align perfectly as we view very distant objects as they do near objects. Muscles control eye tracking. The retinas need to work with the muscles for vision.
This is the empirical bit so bear with me…
I have always noticed that when I walk outside after a long gaming session, my distance vision is shocking. However, my distance vision seems to recover ([i]probably not the best word[/i]) over time. I am 35. Until recently I have stared at a screen no more than two feet away since I got a spectrum at 10. That’s a long time for my eye muscles to atrophy ([i]again probably not the best word[/i]) slightly at the one extent. As far as my muscles are concerned my eyes are looking into the distance far more often which might be helping them lock onto distant objects.
That noise you might have heard last night was me thinking about the placebo effect. The thing is, I know my eyesight has got better. It’s not perfect by a long shot but it is definitely better.
I started thinking about the eye and how we focus on objects. This is purely thoughts based on my basic biological knowledge so I might be way out here not a first ;). I’m going to ignore the iris because I’m fairly sure its main purpose is to moderate light.
What I understand/remember is that the retina changes shape to adjust the focal point. As was pointed out, the focal point is always going to be at screen depth. However, the direction each eye is pointing needs also to be taken into account. (I know I have the physics right about this bit; my math department told me so.) As we look at increasingly distant objects, the precision required for each eye to point towards the required direction becomes finer. Also, the eyes need to align perfectly as we view very distant objects as they do near objects. Muscles control eye tracking. The retinas need to work with the muscles for vision.
This is the empirical bit so bear with me…
I have always noticed that when I walk outside after a long gaming session, my distance vision is shocking. However, my distance vision seems to recover (probably not the best word) over time. I am 35. Until recently I have stared at a screen no more than two feet away since I got a spectrum at 10. That’s a long time for my eye muscles to atrophy (again probably not the best word) slightly at the one extent. As far as my muscles are concerned my eyes are looking into the distance far more often which might be helping them lock onto distant objects.
What do you think? :)
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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Well... I've been meaning to get involved on these boards for a while now, but it took this thread to pull me outta the woodwork :D
So, here's what I have to say:
Toyification is a great word to describe this phenomenon. Defining toyification as "100% depth plus a ton of convergance" is highly unscientific and unobservant.
You may as well attribute the wind in the air to big fans in the sky... sure desk fans can make some wind, but WIND is not caused by fans... capisci? So SURE, for a game or two you may need to set depth to 100% in order to achieve toyification, but is toyification CAUSED by 100% depth setting? No. Most of the screenshots posted in this thread are a joke and are horribly mis-adjusted for the stereo settings, especially if toyification was the intent of the screenshots.
I'm sorry, don't hate me. I'm not trying to jump in here and start slinging insults on my very first post, so please don't stoop to that level and assume my intention is so. However if you MUST hate me for what I have to say, so be it... but I don't wanna hear a bunch'a whining about it. I just wanna provide some clarification on what toyification OUGHT to be defined as.
[b]Toyification:[/b] When your X, Y, and Z dimensions are perfectly matched in a 1:1:1 ratio. Once this is achieved, in-game character models appear as if they are living, moving action figures (hence TOYification) running around in a tiny world that your monitor is a window into... creating the same feeling of "playing with toys" that comes from childhood adventures with Legos or GI Joes. Obviously, this would apply to more than just CHARACTER models, but also to the modeling of objects and world details too.
Now, look at those Torchlight screenshots. Are the ones that are "1T" and "2T" supposed to be the same as screenshots "1" and "2" but toyified? If so I'm sorry, but you sir are greatly confused. All the torchlight screenshots with a T after the number are GROSSLY out of proportion and nowhere near a 1:1:1 ratio of X, Y, and Z dimensions.
Setting your depth and convergence CORRECTLY will achieve toyification in just about every game. Thus, this list should be considered a list of games which can toyificate with no other visual bugs such as wrong-depth HUD elements, 2D shadows, or nose-depth ground (just LOOK at the two WoW screenies that say "should" in the name... ICK!). Depth and convergence settings are on a person-to-person basis, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Setting your depth at 100% is very inaccurate and will rarely result in PROPER toyification.
Based on the screenshots I see around these boards, I start to wonder if I'm the only person who goes around in their day-to-day life alternately closing each eye one at a time to get an idea of how much depth separation and convergence there is in different real life situations.
Try looking at a flagpole or other such vertical object that is in the range of 10-15 feet away and focus at something 20-30 feet away. The amount of separation between the double image of the flagpole is quite small, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch if measured against a ruler held at arms distance.
Since in a video game world we are not looking at objects that are actually 10-15 feet away... but rather to the scaled-down character they would be, so you must scale your parallax (what we call "depth" in the S3D settings) accordingly.
Additionally, in real life when you look at an object that is farther away, your eyes will focus at a different depth. With a computer monitor (even when in stereoscopic 3D mode) your monitor is always at the same distance from your eyes and thus there is only ONE focal distance that will result in unblurred images.
Because of this discontinuity between perceived depth and necessary focal distance when using stereoscopic 3D, it essential to keep your parallax (depth) adjustments in a more realistic range... in order to prevent eyestrain.
Take the GTA4 balcony screenshot for example. Just look at the railing running away from you on Niko's left (well I guess it's actually behind him) with your 3D glasses OFF. Now can you HONESTLY say that if you were looking at a railing from approximately 10 feet up and 10 feet away that the angle difference between the left eye and right eye would be THAT much? I think not. If you say yes, I say OGRE, cause you've got some eyes that are FAR apart from each other in your head!
Well... I've been meaning to get involved on these boards for a while now, but it took this thread to pull me outta the woodwork :D
So, here's what I have to say:
Toyification is a great word to describe this phenomenon. Defining toyification as "100% depth plus a ton of convergance" is highly unscientific and unobservant.
You may as well attribute the wind in the air to big fans in the sky... sure desk fans can make some wind, but WIND is not caused by fans... capisci? So SURE, for a game or two you may need to set depth to 100% in order to achieve toyification, but is toyification CAUSED by 100% depth setting? No. Most of the screenshots posted in this thread are a joke and are horribly mis-adjusted for the stereo settings, especially if toyification was the intent of the screenshots.
I'm sorry, don't hate me. I'm not trying to jump in here and start slinging insults on my very first post, so please don't stoop to that level and assume my intention is so. However if you MUST hate me for what I have to say, so be it... but I don't wanna hear a bunch'a whining about it. I just wanna provide some clarification on what toyification OUGHT to be defined as.
Toyification: When your X, Y, and Z dimensions are perfectly matched in a 1:1:1 ratio. Once this is achieved, in-game character models appear as if they are living, moving action figures (hence TOYification) running around in a tiny world that your monitor is a window into... creating the same feeling of "playing with toys" that comes from childhood adventures with Legos or GI Joes. Obviously, this would apply to more than just CHARACTER models, but also to the modeling of objects and world details too.
Now, look at those Torchlight screenshots. Are the ones that are "1T" and "2T" supposed to be the same as screenshots "1" and "2" but toyified? If so I'm sorry, but you sir are greatly confused. All the torchlight screenshots with a T after the number are GROSSLY out of proportion and nowhere near a 1:1:1 ratio of X, Y, and Z dimensions.
Setting your depth and convergence CORRECTLY will achieve toyification in just about every game. Thus, this list should be considered a list of games which can toyificate with no other visual bugs such as wrong-depth HUD elements, 2D shadows, or nose-depth ground (just LOOK at the two WoW screenies that say "should" in the name... ICK!). Depth and convergence settings are on a person-to-person basis, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Setting your depth at 100% is very inaccurate and will rarely result in PROPER toyification.
Based on the screenshots I see around these boards, I start to wonder if I'm the only person who goes around in their day-to-day life alternately closing each eye one at a time to get an idea of how much depth separation and convergence there is in different real life situations.
Try looking at a flagpole or other such vertical object that is in the range of 10-15 feet away and focus at something 20-30 feet away. The amount of separation between the double image of the flagpole is quite small, maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch if measured against a ruler held at arms distance.
Since in a video game world we are not looking at objects that are actually 10-15 feet away... but rather to the scaled-down character they would be, so you must scale your parallax (what we call "depth" in the S3D settings) accordingly.
Additionally, in real life when you look at an object that is farther away, your eyes will focus at a different depth. With a computer monitor (even when in stereoscopic 3D mode) your monitor is always at the same distance from your eyes and thus there is only ONE focal distance that will result in unblurred images.
Because of this discontinuity between perceived depth and necessary focal distance when using stereoscopic 3D, it essential to keep your parallax (depth) adjustments in a more realistic range... in order to prevent eyestrain.
Take the GTA4 balcony screenshot for example. Just look at the railing running away from you on Niko's left (well I guess it's actually behind him) with your 3D glasses OFF. Now can you HONESTLY say that if you were looking at a railing from approximately 10 feet up and 10 feet away that the angle difference between the left eye and right eye would be THAT much? I think not. If you say yes, I say OGRE, cause you've got some eyes that are FAR apart from each other in your head!
Welcome to the boards and thanks for a great post!
No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? [i][color="#800080"]Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.[/color][/i]
I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
The 100% depth thingy was my ignorance. On my monitor that where it begins. Anything less than 100% and my games never produce infinite depth (divergence = distance between eyes). Obviously on a bigger screen or projector, infinite depth can be achieved at low depth.
The screenshots you mentioned are perfectly comfortable for my eyes on my monitor. I hear people talking about eyestrain but never once have I heard a case of it. People have suffered motion sickness which I think is cool as it shows the part of the brain which deals with sight (by far the largest organell in the brain) is fooled by the 3D! :) My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Andy
Welcome to the boards and thanks for a great post!
No worries about pondering stereo vision; I do it all the time. As I drive to school I often compare the divergence of objects by looking 'through' the dirt on my windscreen and making little discoveries. Just the other day I realised that as the object gets further away the increase of divergence gets less. Consequently as you stare over to very distant objects e.g. a car to a distant tree, to the horizen then to a star, the increase in divergence becomes negligable but makes a massive difference. Is it an inverse square ratio or something? Edit: Just been told by the math department that depth increases exponentially as convergence increases towards eye space. Positive part of the quadratic curve or something.
I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
The 100% depth thingy was my ignorance. On my monitor that where it begins. Anything less than 100% and my games never produce infinite depth (divergence = distance between eyes). Obviously on a bigger screen or projector, infinite depth can be achieved at low depth.
The screenshots you mentioned are perfectly comfortable for my eyes on my monitor. I hear people talking about eyestrain but never once have I heard a case of it. People have suffered motion sickness which I think is cool as it shows the part of the brain which deals with sight (by far the largest organell in the brain) is fooled by the 3D! :) My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Andy
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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Mate!
That was the first game I played after I noticed the effect and sussed out how to get it! I remember thinking I hate it! I love it! I hate it! I love it etc etc
Loved it won.
TR:U has been on the list since the first edit. :)
Mate!
That was the first game I played after I noticed the effect and sussed out how to get it! I remember thinking I hate it! I love it! I hate it! I love it etc etc
Loved it won.
TR:U has been on the list since the first edit. :)
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
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Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)[/quote]
Yes. It looks pretty awful with the default settings, but if you play with them enough, it toys up great! It still has the same U3 engine issues, but bringing the convergence point back to your character at least eliminates the double fog shadows around him.
Thinking about it now the other game i tried was Burnout Paradise, that was great with toyification, specially if you drive slowly past the parked cars! but i see you already got that one too, lol
Anyone tried Transformers WFC? although it has its issues in s3D little toy robots could look really funny (i dont have the game anymore so cant try it)
Yes. It looks pretty awful with the default settings, but if you play with them enough, it toys up great! It still has the same U3 engine issues, but bringing the convergence point back to your character at least eliminates the double fog shadows around him.
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Another game that toyificates well, Tiger Woods 08. It looks fantastic in s3D as well, had a little bit of ghosting on the ball while its in mid flight but other than that looked superb, looks really trippy when "toyed" up as well.
Another game that toyificates well, Tiger Woods 08. It looks fantastic in s3D as well, had a little bit of ghosting on the ball while its in mid flight but other than that looked superb, looks really trippy when "toyed" up as well.
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Added Tigerwoods! Mean chuft about WoW. :)
Added Tigerwoods! Mean chuft about WoW. :)
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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Free game which Ts! Nice
Does anyone else notice flashing at the start of the map?
Free game which Ts! Nice
Does anyone else notice flashing at the start of the map?
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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If you have a 22" monitor set depth to 100%. Then increase convergence using Ctrl F6. After a short while you should get the effect! :)
Not that I have tried because I havent paid my subscription since it was fixed.
If you have a 22" monitor set depth to 100%. Then increase convergence using Ctrl F6. After a short while you should get the effect! :)
Not that I have tried because I havent paid my subscription since it was fixed.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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HAHA, that's exactly when I ponder stereo vision the most too... during my drive to school using the dirt on my windshield :D
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.[/quote]
Well... I must say I'm a bit lost now. Could you PLEASE give us a new definition of toyification, then? ...something Webster grade?
This is not what I would consider a good definition... it's full of vague references and lacks concrete scientific references, things that are known terms like "screen depth" or "pop-out" or linking to a wikipedia article to help define the terms which you are using to define your new term can help make a good definition:
[quote]What is toyification?
For those not in the know, 'toyification' is the unique effect that can only be achieved with stereo 3D. It is caused, I believe, by slightly stretching a 'fully deep' gameworld so it extends, pops out, slightly into the space infront of the screen. Once achieved, the game world changes into a distinctive, high definition, virtual model world. I guess it is result of perception - seeing your full sized character, model sized, in front of the screen; this obviously extends into the rest of the gameworld.[/quote]
So... enlighten me, please. I've been getting several PMs a week ever since I made my initial post in this thread from people who are asking me for advice on what toyification is and how to achieve it... they all seem to think I'm some kind of expert or something, but currently all I can really tell them is that it's a bunch of bogus, sorry dude... but I can't exactly promote something if I don't actually know what it is, right? Or at least I don't wanna be promoting toyification as ONE thing when the very guy who coined the term is telling me that it's actually ANOTHER thing... in this case a thing which I guess I don't actually understand.
Once we have a better definition, then we can provide better instructions than just:
[quote]How do you get toyification?
Simple. Set depth to 100% and add convergence.[/quote]
I mean that doesn't actually TELL people HOW to get toyification... you may as well teach someone to drive by saying "you turn the key, mash the pedals, and move the wheel" ...yeah that's the gist of it, but that certainly doesn't teach someone HOW to drive.
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.[/quote]
Now, when you go and say something as outlandish as this, I can't help but provide a rebuttal.
See... stereoscopic 3D is pretty different from REAL WORLD stereo vision.
IRL, when we look at something far away, our eyes not only FOCUS on the far away object, but they also adjust their vergence point (see: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence[/url] ) in order to maintain proper binocular vision.
Then when we look at something close to us, our eyes once again adjust BOTH their focal point and their vergence point to correspond with the closer object... so there's TWO things our eyes are changing: their FOCAL point and their VERGENCE point.
With 3D Vision, however, our simulated depth ONLY simulates the vergence aspect of real life stereo vision. The FOCAL POINT is ALWAYS your monitor or screen... because if you WEREN'T focused on your screen, everything would be blurry. So even though your brain is tricked into seeing "depth" and thus your eyes are adjusting their vergence point to accommodate this virtual depth, your actual FOCAL point (the point at which the lenses of your eyes make the image crisp and not blurry) does NOT change.
Thus, I've gotta call the placebo card here, sorry man... but those sugar pills are some powerful stuff ;)
I'm sorry to be so "confrontational" here... and really my intention is not to create an ARGUMENT but to facilitate a good DEBATE... there's a big difference: one involves anger and the other is science in the making! So lets have some fun with this debate in the name of science, for the greater good of all! I only hope in the end we wind up with a very good, concrete, well cited and referenced definition of what toyification is and how it can be achieved.
Oh... and by the way:
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']divergence = distance between eyes[/quote]
Please see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28eye%29"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28eye%29[/url] and [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergence_%28eye%29"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergence_%28eye%29[/url]
HAHA, that's exactly when I ponder stereo vision the most too... during my drive to school using the dirt on my windshield :D
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']I am not sure why the 1:1:1 ratio has popped up. I would not call that toyification. In fact I would say for toyification to start you need to go past the unification ratio; one of the axis needs to be stretch e.g. 1 : 1 : > 1. The more convergence you add, the more miniture an toylike the character and the world in the game becomes. Games with potentially little popout can achieve toyification to a ridiculous level. With games where you have popout e.g. GTA4 you can only have a little unless you are comfortable controlling the camera to make sure you keep objects from going behind you.
Well... I must say I'm a bit lost now. Could you PLEASE give us a new definition of toyification, then? ...something Webster grade?
This is not what I would consider a good definition... it's full of vague references and lacks concrete scientific references, things that are known terms like "screen depth" or "pop-out" or linking to a wikipedia article to help define the terms which you are using to define your new term can help make a good definition:
So... enlighten me, please. I've been getting several PMs a week ever since I made my initial post in this thread from people who are asking me for advice on what toyification is and how to achieve it... they all seem to think I'm some kind of expert or something, but currently all I can really tell them is that it's a bunch of bogus, sorry dude... but I can't exactly promote something if I don't actually know what it is, right? Or at least I don't wanna be promoting toyification as ONE thing when the very guy who coined the term is telling me that it's actually ANOTHER thing... in this case a thing which I guess I don't actually understand.
Once we have a better definition, then we can provide better instructions than just:
I mean that doesn't actually TELL people HOW to get toyification... you may as well teach someone to drive by saying "you turn the key, mash the pedals, and move the wheel" ...yeah that's the gist of it, but that certainly doesn't teach someone HOW to drive.
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']My eyesite has improved. I used to have to wear glasses to drive because I couldnt read the number plates passed the legal distance - I can now. I am spending more time focusing on distant objects insteaed of the screen in front of me. Great stuff.
Now, when you go and say something as outlandish as this, I can't help but provide a rebuttal.
See... stereoscopic 3D is pretty different from REAL WORLD stereo vision.
IRL, when we look at something far away, our eyes not only FOCUS on the far away object, but they also adjust their vergence point (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence ) in order to maintain proper binocular vision.
Then when we look at something close to us, our eyes once again adjust BOTH their focal point and their vergence point to correspond with the closer object... so there's TWO things our eyes are changing: their FOCAL point and their VERGENCE point.
With 3D Vision, however, our simulated depth ONLY simulates the vergence aspect of real life stereo vision. The FOCAL POINT is ALWAYS your monitor or screen... because if you WEREN'T focused on your screen, everything would be blurry. So even though your brain is tricked into seeing "depth" and thus your eyes are adjusting their vergence point to accommodate this virtual depth, your actual FOCAL point (the point at which the lenses of your eyes make the image crisp and not blurry) does NOT change.
Thus, I've gotta call the placebo card here, sorry man... but those sugar pills are some powerful stuff ;)
I'm sorry to be so "confrontational" here... and really my intention is not to create an ARGUMENT but to facilitate a good DEBATE... there's a big difference: one involves anger and the other is science in the making! So lets have some fun with this debate in the name of science, for the greater good of all! I only hope in the end we wind up with a very good, concrete, well cited and referenced definition of what toyification is and how it can be achieved.
Oh... and by the way:
[quote name='andysonofbob' post='1087947' date='Jul 14 2010, 10:29 AM']divergence = distance between eyes
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergence and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_%28eye%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergence_%28eye%29
I asked the bods on the mtbs3D site, I think you will like it. :)
[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=10909"]http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=10909[/url]
Please insert 'when' and, as you say, change divergence to vergence... so it should read infinite depth (when vergence = distance between eyes) or however you would explain how we perceive infinit distance when the rays of light which enter each eye from a single object are parallel.
Cheers
I asked the bods on the mtbs3D site, I think you will like it. :)
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=10909
Please insert 'when' and, as you say, change divergence to vergence... so it should read infinite depth (when vergence = distance between eyes) or however you would explain how we perceive infinit distance when the rays of light which enter each eye from a single object are parallel.
Cheers
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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I started thinking about the eye and how we focus on objects. This is purely thoughts based on my basic biological knowledge so I might be way out here [i][b]not a first ;)[/b][/i]. I’m going to ignore the iris because I’m fairly sure its main purpose is to moderate light.
What I understand/remember is that the retina changes shape to adjust the focal point. As was pointed out, the focal point is always going to be at screen depth. However, the direction each eye is pointing needs also to be taken into account. (I know I have the physics right about this bit; my math department told me so.) As we look at increasingly distant objects, the precision required for each eye to point towards the required direction becomes finer. Also, the eyes need to align perfectly as we view very distant objects as they do near objects. Muscles control eye tracking. The retinas need to work with the muscles for vision.
This is the empirical bit so bear with me…
I have always noticed that when I walk outside after a long gaming session, my distance vision is shocking. However, my distance vision seems to recover ([i]probably not the best word[/i]) over time. I am 35. Until recently I have stared at a screen no more than two feet away since I got a spectrum at 10. That’s a long time for my eye muscles to atrophy ([i]again probably not the best word[/i]) slightly at the one extent. As far as my muscles are concerned my eyes are looking into the distance far more often which might be helping them lock onto distant objects.
What do you think? :)
I started thinking about the eye and how we focus on objects. This is purely thoughts based on my basic biological knowledge so I might be way out here not a first ;). I’m going to ignore the iris because I’m fairly sure its main purpose is to moderate light.
What I understand/remember is that the retina changes shape to adjust the focal point. As was pointed out, the focal point is always going to be at screen depth. However, the direction each eye is pointing needs also to be taken into account. (I know I have the physics right about this bit; my math department told me so.) As we look at increasingly distant objects, the precision required for each eye to point towards the required direction becomes finer. Also, the eyes need to align perfectly as we view very distant objects as they do near objects. Muscles control eye tracking. The retinas need to work with the muscles for vision.
This is the empirical bit so bear with me…
I have always noticed that when I walk outside after a long gaming session, my distance vision is shocking. However, my distance vision seems to recover (probably not the best word) over time. I am 35. Until recently I have stared at a screen no more than two feet away since I got a spectrum at 10. That’s a long time for my eye muscles to atrophy (again probably not the best word) slightly at the one extent. As far as my muscles are concerned my eyes are looking into the distance far more often which might be helping them lock onto distant objects.
What do you think? :)
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes