3D HDTV's 1080p@60Hz Per Eye?
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Hey guys,
I was just wondering if there is any way, or any planned ways, for Nvidia to get around the 1080p@24hz problem? I realize most 3D TV sets don't come with a DVI port (if not all of them) and wondered if Nvidia is doing anything to get around this problem?
I've been looking online at possibly fixes, incl. adapters - is it possibly to simply plug in two HDMI cables, or to use one HDMI, one VGA (all 3D TV's I know of have a VGA input) or possibly make a USB->DisplayPort/Dual-Link DVI adapter? Would it not be possible to use one HDMI + one USB to deliver the picture ?

Here are some links to some current adapters, do you guys know of any way, or are Nvidia doing anything to get around the 1080p24hz?


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I'm quite new to the 3D world so I'm probably missing a few things (probably a lot) but I really hope it's possible to game at 1080/60fps -is Nvidia doing anything?
Hey guys,

I was just wondering if there is any way, or any planned ways, for Nvidia to get around the 1080p@24hz problem? I realize most 3D TV sets don't come with a DVI port (if not all of them) and wondered if Nvidia is doing anything to get around this problem?

I've been looking online at possibly fixes, incl. adapters - is it possibly to simply plug in two HDMI cables, or to use one HDMI, one VGA (all 3D TV's I know of have a VGA input) or possibly make a USB->DisplayPort/Dual-Link DVI adapter? Would it not be possible to use one HDMI + one USB to deliver the picture ?



Here are some links to some current adapters, do you guys know of any way, or are Nvidia doing anything to get around the 1080p24hz?





HDMI->Display Port?

HDMI->DVI-D?



I'm quite new to the 3D world so I'm probably missing a few things (probably a lot) but I really hope it's possible to game at 1080/60fps -is Nvidia doing anything?

#1
Posted 03/13/2011 06:14 PM   
It would have to be fixed by the TV manufacturers.
If there is no way for a TV to take a full 1080P image at 60 Hz / eye there is nothing NVidia can do to change that.

Right now the manufacturers have little or no insentive to provide the feature.
It would have to be fixed by the TV manufacturers.

If there is no way for a TV to take a full 1080P image at 60 Hz / eye there is nothing NVidia can do to change that.



Right now the manufacturers have little or no insentive to provide the feature.
#2
Posted 03/13/2011 06:33 PM   
Part of the problem is that these displays use standardized input only.
If you combine all the inputs simultaneously on these TV (usually minimum 2 hdmi, most have 3 hdmi if not more + 1 VGA and/or YUV + composite + S-Video + DTV Tuner), you could get theoretical bandwidth that exceed stereo 4K@60Hz, the problem is that these TVs electronics would not be able to understand it and reassemble the picture.

You'd need to either :
-overclock the hdmi input chip, all the rest of the TV electronics and update firmware to allow the TV to detect and process stereo 1080p60 (I know none that can do it at the moment)
-get a new TV which supports hdmi1.4 stereo 1080p60 (it is specified by hdmi 1.4, just not mandatory t be called hdmi1.4 : I know none that can do it at the moment)
-get a new TV which supports DisplayPort 1.2 3D format. (there is none at the moment)
-don't even hope for 3DTVs via DVI Dual-link : it won't happen, it's not a 3D standard : TV manufacturers don't even want to hear about it.

Once you got a compatible TV, you'll be able to ask Nvidia if either of these can be done :
-overclock your graphics card's hdmi output to support hdmi 1.4 stereo 1080p60 and have a driver update.
-get a new graphics card with certified hdmi 1.4 1080p60 support (i don't know any)
-get a new graphics card with DisplayPort 1.2 3D output (AMD claims some HD5xxx and all HD6xxx series are compatible, Nvidia has internal support but I do not know any manufacturer that provides an actual Nvidia graphics cards with DisplayPort 1.2)
Part of the problem is that these displays use standardized input only.

If you combine all the inputs simultaneously on these TV (usually minimum 2 hdmi, most have 3 hdmi if not more + 1 VGA and/or YUV + composite + S-Video + DTV Tuner), you could get theoretical bandwidth that exceed stereo 4K@60Hz, the problem is that these TVs electronics would not be able to understand it and reassemble the picture.



You'd need to either :

-overclock the hdmi input chip, all the rest of the TV electronics and update firmware to allow the TV to detect and process stereo 1080p60 (I know none that can do it at the moment)

-get a new TV which supports hdmi1.4 stereo 1080p60 (it is specified by hdmi 1.4, just not mandatory t be called hdmi1.4 : I know none that can do it at the moment)

-get a new TV which supports DisplayPort 1.2 3D format. (there is none at the moment)

-don't even hope for 3DTVs via DVI Dual-link : it won't happen, it's not a 3D standard : TV manufacturers don't even want to hear about it.



Once you got a compatible TV, you'll be able to ask Nvidia if either of these can be done :

-overclock your graphics card's hdmi output to support hdmi 1.4 stereo 1080p60 and have a driver update.

-get a new graphics card with certified hdmi 1.4 1080p60 support (i don't know any)

-get a new graphics card with DisplayPort 1.2 3D output (AMD claims some HD5xxx and all HD6xxx series are compatible, Nvidia has internal support but I do not know any manufacturer that provides an actual Nvidia graphics cards with DisplayPort 1.2)

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#3
Posted 03/13/2011 06:42 PM   
[quote name='ERP' date='13 March 2011 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1300041212' post='1206971']

Right now the manufacturers have little or no insentive to provide the feature.
[/quote]
Every owner of a gaming console would have a compeling reason to buy a 3DTV that supports 3D gaming at full res/full framerate. Any TV maker to offer this feature would therefore potentially see sales increase by however many gaming consoles there are worldwide. That amounts to several million TV sets, which I believe would be a huge incentive.
[quote name='ERP' date='13 March 2011 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1300041212' post='1206971']



Right now the manufacturers have little or no insentive to provide the feature.



Every owner of a gaming console would have a compeling reason to buy a 3DTV that supports 3D gaming at full res/full framerate. Any TV maker to offer this feature would therefore potentially see sales increase by however many gaming consoles there are worldwide. That amounts to several million TV sets, which I believe would be a huge incentive.

#4
Posted 03/13/2011 07:00 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' date='13 March 2011 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1300041721' post='1206974']
Part of the problem is that these displays use standardized input only.
If you combine all the inputs simultaneously on these TV (usually minimum 2 hdmi, most have 3 hdmi if not more + 1 VGA and/or YUV + composite + S-Video + DTV Tuner), you could get theoretical bandwidth that exceed stereo 4K@60Hz, the problem is that these TVs electronics would not be able to understand it and reassemble the picture.

You'd need to either :
-overclock the hdmi input chip, all the rest of the TV electronics and update firmware to allow the TV to detect and process stereo 1080p60 (I know none that can do it at the moment)
-get a new TV which supports hdmi1.4 stereo 1080p60 (it is specified by hdmi 1.4, just not mandatory t be called hdmi1.4 : I know none that can do it at the moment)
-get a new TV which supports DisplayPort 1.2 3D format. (there is none at the moment)
-don't even hope for 3DTVs via DVI Dual-link : it won't happen, it's not a 3D standard : TV manufacturers don't even want to hear about it.

Once you got a compatible TV, you'll be able to ask Nvidia if either of these can be done :
-overclock your graphics card's hdmi output to support hdmi 1.4 stereo 1080p60 and have a driver update.
-get a new graphics card with certified hdmi 1.4 1080p60 support (i don't know any)
-get a new graphics card with DisplayPort 1.2 3D output (AMD claims some HD5xxx and all HD6xxx series are compatible, Nvidia has internal support but I do not know any manufacturer that provides an actual Nvidia graphics cards with DisplayPort 1.2)
[/quote]

I see what you're saying; but isn't there some sort of Checkboard 60hz per eye? Isn't that 1080p? I heard people saying it's equal in pixels to something, didn't quite catch what they meant; is that a substitute to 1080p(ie 1080i?) or is it just as good?
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' date='13 March 2011 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1300041721' post='1206974']

Part of the problem is that these displays use standardized input only.

If you combine all the inputs simultaneously on these TV (usually minimum 2 hdmi, most have 3 hdmi if not more + 1 VGA and/or YUV + composite + S-Video + DTV Tuner), you could get theoretical bandwidth that exceed stereo 4K@60Hz, the problem is that these TVs electronics would not be able to understand it and reassemble the picture.



You'd need to either :

-overclock the hdmi input chip, all the rest of the TV electronics and update firmware to allow the TV to detect and process stereo 1080p60 (I know none that can do it at the moment)

-get a new TV which supports hdmi1.4 stereo 1080p60 (it is specified by hdmi 1.4, just not mandatory t be called hdmi1.4 : I know none that can do it at the moment)

-get a new TV which supports DisplayPort 1.2 3D format. (there is none at the moment)

-don't even hope for 3DTVs via DVI Dual-link : it won't happen, it's not a 3D standard : TV manufacturers don't even want to hear about it.



Once you got a compatible TV, you'll be able to ask Nvidia if either of these can be done :

-overclock your graphics card's hdmi output to support hdmi 1.4 stereo 1080p60 and have a driver update.

-get a new graphics card with certified hdmi 1.4 1080p60 support (i don't know any)

-get a new graphics card with DisplayPort 1.2 3D output (AMD claims some HD5xxx and all HD6xxx series are compatible, Nvidia has internal support but I do not know any manufacturer that provides an actual Nvidia graphics cards with DisplayPort 1.2)





I see what you're saying; but isn't there some sort of Checkboard 60hz per eye? Isn't that 1080p? I heard people saying it's equal in pixels to something, didn't quite catch what they meant; is that a substitute to 1080p(ie 1080i?) or is it just as good?

#5
Posted 03/13/2011 07:10 PM   
Checkerboard is half resolution : 1080p is shared between the two eyes.
It cannot match real 1080p per eye but it looks better than the current Hdmi 1.4 implementation because :
-1080p60 checkerboard contains more pixels per eye than 720p60 full-resolution per eye
-it scales much better to 1080p panels (which most 3DTVs use) than 720p.
Checkerboard is half resolution : 1080p is shared between the two eyes.

It cannot match real 1080p per eye but it looks better than the current Hdmi 1.4 implementation because :

-1080p60 checkerboard contains more pixels per eye than 720p60 full-resolution per eye

-it scales much better to 1080p panels (which most 3DTVs use) than 720p.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#6
Posted 03/13/2011 07:20 PM   
[quote name='Cheddarcheese' date='13 March 2011 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1300043429' post='1206987']
is that a substitute to 1080p(ie 1080i?) or is it just as good?
[/quote]

In most games, it is difficult to tell the difference between checkerboard and full res framepacking (1920x1080 per eye). For example, in Black ops, the difference is obvious but I like CB better because it has much less ghosting, and has a slicker look. In Bioshock, CB and FP are hard tell apart, I prefer FP because the colors are every so slightly more vibrant. So it really depends on the game, but even with Blu Ray 3D, ghosting is much decreased with CB vs FP.
[quote name='Cheddarcheese' date='13 March 2011 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1300043429' post='1206987']

is that a substitute to 1080p(ie 1080i?) or is it just as good?





In most games, it is difficult to tell the difference between checkerboard and full res framepacking (1920x1080 per eye). For example, in Black ops, the difference is obvious but I like CB better because it has much less ghosting, and has a slicker look. In Bioshock, CB and FP are hard tell apart, I prefer FP because the colors are every so slightly more vibrant. So it really depends on the game, but even with Blu Ray 3D, ghosting is much decreased with CB vs FP.

#7
Posted 03/13/2011 08:12 PM   
If you get different ghosting amounts between CB and FP, it's the fault of your display's internal electronics.
CB and FP in essence contain no element that should increase of reduce ghosting.
The result could be completely different with an other display brand/model.
If you get different ghosting amounts between CB and FP, it's the fault of your display's internal electronics.

CB and FP in essence contain no element that should increase of reduce ghosting.

The result could be completely different with an other display brand/model.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#8
Posted 03/13/2011 08:21 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' date='13 March 2011 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1300047671' post='1207017']
If you get different ghosting amounts between CB and FP, it's the fault of your display's internal electronics.
CB and FP in essence contain no element that should increase of reduce ghosting.
The result could be completely different with an other display brand/model.
[/quote]

Yeah, I seriously think that their is more to ghosting than than we think/assume, on my Samsung, there's a 3d 'optimization' option, with -1/0/+1 options, whilst each one appears to have minimal difference, just going from 0-> 1 and then back to 0 appears to eliminate a lot of crosstalk - but this process has to be repeated each time you restart the television/3d mode.
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' date='13 March 2011 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1300047671' post='1207017']

If you get different ghosting amounts between CB and FP, it's the fault of your display's internal electronics.

CB and FP in essence contain no element that should increase of reduce ghosting.

The result could be completely different with an other display brand/model.





Yeah, I seriously think that their is more to ghosting than than we think/assume, on my Samsung, there's a 3d 'optimization' option, with -1/0/+1 options, whilst each one appears to have minimal difference, just going from 0-> 1 and then back to 0 appears to eliminate a lot of crosstalk - but this process has to be repeated each time you restart the television/3d mode.

#9
Posted 03/13/2011 08:36 PM   
Anyway, the OP asked:

" I really hope it's possible to game at 1080/60fps -is Nvidia doing anything? "

The answer is yes and yes. It is definitely possible to game at 1080P/60 fps (1 frame = 1 left eye image plus 1 right eye image) in 3D. Nvidia did this by supporting checkerboard mode in 3D Vision.
Anyway, the OP asked:



" I really hope it's possible to game at 1080/60fps -is Nvidia doing anything? "



The answer is yes and yes. It is definitely possible to game at 1080P/60 fps (1 frame = 1 left eye image plus 1 right eye image) in 3D. Nvidia did this by supporting checkerboard mode in 3D Vision.

#10
Posted 03/13/2011 10:46 PM   
At the moment the only TRUE 1080p 60 Frames Per Eye is a 120Hz 3D Monitor. IE, Supports 1080p at 120Hz Input via the DVI Dual Link port.

Anything else that is using 1080p/60 is only giving you HALF the Resolution or HALF the frame rate. IE, Side by side is Half the Horizontal Resolution. Top and Bottom is Half the Verticle Resolotion. Checkerboard is again only half the resolution but implemented differantly. And page flipping is half the Frame Rate.

If HDMI is here to stay we are not going to get 1080p/120 back again.

The HDMI specs have screwed the Gaming world.

It is possable to do as others have suggested by supporting Dual HDMI cables. But again, it's extreamly unlikely the TV manufacturers will do this.


Charles
At the moment the only TRUE 1080p 60 Frames Per Eye is a 120Hz 3D Monitor. IE, Supports 1080p at 120Hz Input via the DVI Dual Link port.



Anything else that is using 1080p/60 is only giving you HALF the Resolution or HALF the frame rate. IE, Side by side is Half the Horizontal Resolution. Top and Bottom is Half the Verticle Resolotion. Checkerboard is again only half the resolution but implemented differantly. And page flipping is half the Frame Rate.



If HDMI is here to stay we are not going to get 1080p/120 back again.



The HDMI specs have screwed the Gaming world.



It is possable to do as others have suggested by supporting Dual HDMI cables. But again, it's extreamly unlikely the TV manufacturers will do this.





Charles

#11
Posted 03/14/2011 02:20 AM   
[quote name='roller11' date='13 March 2011 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1300056393' post='1207073']

The answer is yes and yes. It is definitely possible to game at 1080P/60 fps (1 frame = 1 left eye image plus 1 right eye image) in 3D. Nvidia did this by supporting checkerboard mode in 3D Vision.
[/quote]
I thought Nvidia didn't support checkerboard mode in 1080p?
[quote name='roller11' date='13 March 2011 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1300056393' post='1207073']



The answer is yes and yes. It is definitely possible to game at 1080P/60 fps (1 frame = 1 left eye image plus 1 right eye image) in 3D. Nvidia did this by supporting checkerboard mode in 3D Vision.



I thought Nvidia didn't support checkerboard mode in 1080p?

#12
Posted 03/14/2011 04:11 PM   
[quote name='Yunti McGunti' date='14 March 2011 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1300119068' post='1207376']
I thought Nvidia didn't support checkerboard mode in 1080p?
[/quote]

We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.

We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.
[quote name='Yunti McGunti' date='14 March 2011 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1300119068' post='1207376']

I thought Nvidia didn't support checkerboard mode in 1080p?





We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.



We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.

#13
Posted 03/14/2011 04:18 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='14 March 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1300119486' post='1207382']
We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.

We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.
[/quote]

Ah! Thanks for the reply :D
Guess I'll have to wait for that to be implemented then - thanks a lot!
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='14 March 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1300119486' post='1207382']

We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.



We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.





Ah! Thanks for the reply :D

Guess I'll have to wait for that to be implemented then - thanks a lot!

#14
Posted 03/14/2011 07:27 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='14 March 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1300119486' post='1207382']
We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.

We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.
[/quote]

Sounds good (and then side by side support?)
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='14 March 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1300119486' post='1207382']

We support it on DLPs when using 3D vision glasases.



We are going to add it to 3DTV Play for HDMI 1.4 3D TVs next. No schedule yet though.





Sounds good (and then side by side support?)

#15
Posted 03/15/2011 02:36 PM   
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