144 Hz Support?
Hi, for several days I looked up monitors and different 3D Solutions. Normally Nvidias 3D vision is used together with 120 Hz Monitors. But as there are a few 144 Hz Monitors I wondered if 144 Hz are usable in 3D. I mean in 2D there is no real difference between 120 and 144 Hz. But for someone who is sensitive to flickering those 24 Hz can help in 3D, because each eye gets 12 Hz more. I often read, that Nvidias 3D Vision doesn't support 144 Hz and instead caps the monitor to 120 Hz in the settings. In one video on youtube someone showed, that the glasses could however shutter at 144 Hz what clearly reduces flickering. He just got this 144 Hz working due to a bug(? not described in detail) and not in games/movies in 3D, because of the 120 Hz cap of Nvidia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szx6iO3ggbQ Unfortunately there is not much information in the internet about this topic. I searched for hours. For more confusion I found a site, promoting a monitor from ASUS with 144 Hz, which said, that each eye would benefit from the 72 Hz. And on another thread somone suggested he has 72 Hz on each eye, due to the FPS at 71 instead of 60 FPS when playing with 60 Hz per eye. Now I am very confused if or if not the Nvidia 3D Vision Kit supports 144 Hz or only 120 Hz. If it only supports 120 Hz, then the question why? Because 144 Hz would only be useful in 3D imho.
Hi,

for several days I looked up monitors and different 3D Solutions.

Normally Nvidias 3D vision is used together with 120 Hz Monitors.
But as there are a few 144 Hz Monitors I wondered if 144 Hz are usable in 3D.
I mean in 2D there is no real difference between 120 and 144 Hz.
But for someone who is sensitive to flickering those 24 Hz can help in 3D,
because each eye gets 12 Hz more.

I often read, that Nvidias 3D Vision doesn't support 144 Hz and instead caps the monitor to 120 Hz in the settings.
In one video on youtube someone showed, that the glasses could however shutter at 144 Hz what clearly reduces flickering.
He just got this 144 Hz working due to a bug(? not described in detail) and not in games/movies in 3D, because of the 120 Hz cap of Nvidia.


Unfortunately there is not much information in the internet about this topic. I searched for hours. For more confusion I found a site, promoting a monitor from ASUS with 144 Hz, which said, that each eye would benefit from the 72 Hz.
And on another thread somone suggested he has 72 Hz on each eye, due to the FPS at 71 instead of 60 FPS when playing with 60 Hz per eye.

Now I am very confused if or if not the Nvidia 3D Vision Kit supports 144 Hz or only 120 Hz.
If it only supports 120 Hz, then the question why? Because 144 Hz would only be useful in 3D imho.

#1
Posted 01/04/2015 01:38 AM   
I've wondered about this myself. I think Nvidia only supports 120Hz via 3D Vision because LCD Displays are susceptible to crosstalk due to pixel persistence. If the glasses were shuttered at 144Hz, the extinction would be terrible imo. But on a DLP projector, I'd think it would work.
I've wondered about this myself.

I think Nvidia only supports 120Hz via 3D Vision because LCD Displays are susceptible to crosstalk due to pixel persistence.

If the glasses were shuttered at 144Hz, the extinction would be terrible imo.

But on a DLP projector, I'd think it would work.

#2
Posted 01/04/2015 01:53 AM   
[quote="D-Man11"]I've wondered about this myself. I think Nvidia only supports 120Hz via 3D Vision because LCD Displays are susceptible to crosstalk due to pixel persistence. If the glasses were shuttered at 144Hz, the extinction would be terrible imo. But on a DLP projector, I'd think it would work. [/quote] I don't know what you mean with pixel persistence. Image persistence, pixel response time, or something else? I think you mean response time. But i don't see how that could lead to crosstalk for 144 Hz shuttering. If I understand crosstalk/ghosting correctly there can be only 2 sources: 1. Wrong timing 2. Imperfect opacity As I think/hope, the Nvidia 3D Kit doesn't have the 2. problem of imperfect opacity and therefore this couldn't lead to crosstalk/ghosting. As for problem 1. it could be either the screen or the glasses. So, what could lead to ghosting is, when the glasses can't handle 144 Hz and therefore are going out of synch with the monitor. But as the video suggests the glasses CAN shutter at 144 Hz and if they couldn't there should be Kit number 3 that can do it. What also could lead to ghosting, when the screen can't change fast enough and therefore the next image is displayed while the old image still "glows". But I tought, that exactly that problem could not appear (more than at 120 Hz) with a 144 Hz monitor, as the monitor is designated for changing the images 144 times per second. Even if the monitor would be "too slow" at 144 Hz, the quality should still be better, than for example 120 Hz with a monitor, that has max. 120 Hz, as the 144 Hz monitor should have the same "speed"/response time at 144 Hz as the 120 Hz monitor at 120 Hz. Hard to explain what I mean. ^^ So at 120 Hz each image has about 8 milliseconds to be shown and at 140 Hz about 7 milliseconds. If the monitor is promoted as 144 Hz, normally it also is able to change its state within those 7 milliseconds (instead of 8). For a LCD display the crystals need some time to change state and therefore there is a physical limitation. But if 144 Hz is promoted, normally the display should be able to handle it. In a DLP projector the mirrors can change 5000(?) times a second, if I didn't make mistakes reading wikipedia. As i would understand that, it means 5000 Hz would be possible??
D-Man11 said:I've wondered about this myself.

I think Nvidia only supports 120Hz via 3D Vision because LCD Displays are susceptible to crosstalk due to pixel persistence.

If the glasses were shuttered at 144Hz, the extinction would be terrible imo.

But on a DLP projector, I'd think it would work.



I don't know what you mean with pixel persistence. Image persistence, pixel response time, or something else? I think you mean response time.
But i don't see how that could lead to crosstalk for 144 Hz shuttering.

If I understand crosstalk/ghosting correctly there can be only 2 sources:

1. Wrong timing
2. Imperfect opacity

As I think/hope, the Nvidia 3D Kit doesn't have the 2. problem of imperfect opacity and therefore this couldn't lead to crosstalk/ghosting.

As for problem 1. it could be either the screen or the glasses.
So, what could lead to ghosting is, when the glasses can't handle 144 Hz and therefore are going out of synch with the monitor.
But as the video suggests the glasses CAN shutter at 144 Hz and if they couldn't there should be Kit number 3 that can do it.

What also could lead to ghosting, when the screen can't change fast enough and therefore the next image is displayed while the old image still "glows".
But I tought, that exactly that problem could not appear (more than at 120 Hz) with a 144 Hz monitor, as the monitor is designated for changing the images 144 times per second.
Even if the monitor would be "too slow" at 144 Hz, the quality should still be better, than for example 120 Hz with a monitor, that has max. 120 Hz, as the 144 Hz monitor should have the same "speed"/response time at 144 Hz as the 120 Hz monitor at 120 Hz. Hard to explain what I mean. ^^

So at 120 Hz each image has about 8 milliseconds to be shown and at 140 Hz about 7 milliseconds.
If the monitor is promoted as 144 Hz, normally it also is able to change its state within those 7 milliseconds (instead of 8).

For a LCD display the crystals need some time to change state and therefore there is a physical limitation. But if 144 Hz is promoted, normally the display should be able to handle it.
In a DLP projector the mirrors can change 5000(?) times a second, if I didn't make mistakes reading wikipedia. As i would understand that, it means 5000 Hz would be possible??

#3
Posted 01/04/2015 03:49 AM   
I'm not certain, but I think this is a software limitation, not a hardware limitation. All 3D Vision setups work at 120 Hz only, even if the monitor supports 144Hz. You can only use 144Hz (or 85Hz for that matter) in 2D. The opacity of the glasses when shuttering on is quite good. But only in the sweet spot of standard IPD. (pupil distance). If you have significantly different IPD, it's not as good. The monitors also support the LightBoost function, which runs at 120Hz to match the glasses. This significantly improves the brightness of the image. LightBoost at 144Hz is not supported, but it can be hacked to make it work. Short story is that it's locked to 120Hz by software, and getting around it will be hard. 3D Vision is not well supported now, which is why it hasn't been improved to handle 144Hz. For DLP, that's right, it shutters 10x or 15x faster, so it would be possible to make 5000Hz work. But... the glasses are LCD, so you have the same slowness in the glasses themselves.
I'm not certain, but I think this is a software limitation, not a hardware limitation.

All 3D Vision setups work at 120 Hz only, even if the monitor supports 144Hz. You can only use 144Hz (or 85Hz for that matter) in 2D.

The opacity of the glasses when shuttering on is quite good. But only in the sweet spot of standard IPD. (pupil distance). If you have significantly different IPD, it's not as good.

The monitors also support the LightBoost function, which runs at 120Hz to match the glasses. This significantly improves the brightness of the image. LightBoost at 144Hz is not supported, but it can be hacked to make it work.

Short story is that it's locked to 120Hz by software, and getting around it will be hard. 3D Vision is not well supported now, which is why it hasn't been improved to handle 144Hz.


For DLP, that's right, it shutters 10x or 15x faster, so it would be possible to make 5000Hz work. But... the glasses are LCD, so you have the same slowness in the glasses themselves.

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#4
Posted 01/04/2015 07:37 AM   
Hm ok. I also think that the hardware should be able to handle it. But if its "only" the software, I don't understand why Nvidia limits the possibilities of the 3D Vision Kit. I hope they fix this with a new driver. Or maybe someone else smart enough can make it work. [quote="bo3b"] The opacity of the glasses when shuttering on is quite good. But only in the sweet spot of standard IPD. (pupil distance). If you have significantly different IPD, it's not as good.[/quote] How and why does the opacity of the glasses change, when not in the sweet spot? I tought in shutter there is no sweet spot, as its not important from where you look at the screen, the left and right eye (when perfectly in sync) only get to see their respective frames (with perfect opacity) and therefore then there is no ghosting. I mean ghosting can happen if not perfect opaque or not perfectly in sync, but how does the seating positin affect that? [quote="bo3b"] For DLP, that's right, it shutters 10x or 15x faster, so it would be possible to make 5000Hz work. But... the glasses are LCD, so you have the same slowness in the glasses themselves. [/quote] Hm right, but I read a webpage, where it says their shutter glasses have 200µs switching time, that would result in 5000 Hz possible, right? http://www.focux.us/cinema-3d-glasses.html I think its only the software that limits everything for now.
Hm ok. I also think that the hardware should be able to handle it.

But if its "only" the software, I don't understand why Nvidia limits the possibilities of the 3D Vision Kit. I hope they fix this with a new driver.
Or maybe someone else smart enough can make it work.

bo3b said:
The opacity of the glasses when shuttering on is quite good. But only in the sweet spot of standard IPD. (pupil distance). If you have significantly different IPD, it's not as good.


How and why does the opacity of the glasses change, when not in the sweet spot? I tought in shutter there is no sweet spot, as its not important from where you look at the screen, the left and right eye (when perfectly in sync) only get to see their respective frames (with perfect opacity) and therefore then there is no ghosting. I mean ghosting can happen if not perfect opaque or not perfectly in sync, but how does the seating positin affect that?

bo3b said:
For DLP, that's right, it shutters 10x or 15x faster, so it would be possible to make 5000Hz work. But... the glasses are LCD, so you have the same slowness in the glasses themselves.

Hm right, but I read a webpage, where it says their shutter glasses have 200µs switching time, that would result in 5000 Hz possible, right?

http://www.focux.us/cinema-3d-glasses.html


I think its only the software that limits everything for now.

#5
Posted 01/04/2015 06:34 PM   
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