3DTV Play Theoretical Question
Hello. First of all, I should state that I have very limited knowledge about HDMI and 3D technologies, however I have some advanced knowledge about computing. Here is my question and reasoning behind it. It was stated almost everywhere that 3DTV Play does not support any resolution-refresh rate combination other than 1080p@24hz or 720p@60hz because HDMI cable cannot carry the data over for others (Talking about 3d data, which AFAIK is nothing but double image, thus requiring either double refresh rate or double resolution to be in the same quality, thus double size). It crossed my mind, how big is the sound data carried by HDMI? If it is anything above mp3 quality, it should have a considerable bandwidth. If we can choose not to carry the sound through hdmi, then IF we can use the bandwidth to carry some more image data, we can increase the quality (The margin however depends on the bandwidth, it by any means does not mean we can go for 1920p@60hz3d). Any fixed rule to make this impossible? Second and related question is, can we somehow add a DVI port to a TV that doesnt originally have it? Assuming we can, does 3DTV play support the Dual-DVI carried data (We now have 1920p@60Hz3d, does 3DTV play have an obligation about it). Thanks and sorry about the overcomplicated sentences.
Hello.

First of all, I should state that I have very limited knowledge about HDMI and 3D technologies, however I have some advanced knowledge about computing. Here is my question and reasoning behind it.

It was stated almost everywhere that 3DTV Play does not support any resolution-refresh rate combination other than 1080p@24hz or 720p@60hz because HDMI cable cannot carry the data over for others (Talking about 3d data, which AFAIK is nothing but double image, thus requiring either double refresh rate or double resolution to be in the same quality, thus double size). It crossed my mind, how big is the sound data carried by HDMI? If it is anything above mp3 quality, it should have a considerable bandwidth. If we can choose not to carry the sound through hdmi, then IF we can use the bandwidth to carry some more image data, we can increase the quality (The margin however depends on the bandwidth, it by any means does not mean we can go for 1920p@60hz3d). Any fixed rule to make this impossible?

Second and related question is, can we somehow add a DVI port to a TV that doesnt originally have it? Assuming we can, does 3DTV play support the Dual-DVI carried data (We now have 1920p@60Hz3d, does 3DTV play have an obligation about it).

Thanks and sorry about the overcomplicated sentences.

#1
Posted 06/10/2014 01:59 PM   
Your first idea is a good one. HDMI does have more bandwidth than needed for the resolutions supported, and there have been experiments into forcing a higher resolution without sacrificing framerate. CaptainTaco has been working on this, and we're waiting on a guide from him. As for adding a DVI port to a TV, I don't think that's possible.
Your first idea is a good one. HDMI does have more bandwidth than needed for the resolutions supported, and there have been experiments into forcing a higher resolution without sacrificing framerate. CaptainTaco has been working on this, and we're waiting on a guide from him.

As for adding a DVI port to a TV, I don't think that's possible.

#2
Posted 06/10/2014 02:26 PM   
Im very interested in this question too and the possibility of tearing apart a 3DTV and "simply" fusing the LCD panel with another control board, like the guys developing new 1080p displays for the Rift development kit 1. Regarding HDMI, I've been told its not the cable, which can be used for 4K i think, 4x the resolution per frame than 1080p. Its supposedly the sender and receiver of the data on either side of the cable that is limited.
Im very interested in this question too and the possibility of tearing apart a 3DTV and "simply" fusing the LCD panel with another control board, like the guys developing new 1080p displays for the Rift development kit 1.

Regarding HDMI, I've been told its not the cable, which can be used for 4K i think, 4x the resolution per frame than 1080p. Its supposedly the sender and receiver of the data on either side of the cable that is limited.

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#3
Posted 06/10/2014 03:01 PM   
Yeah, this sounds like a great idea, remove the audio channel and we should be able to get better resolutions/hertz. So is this possible?
Yeah, this sounds like a great idea, remove the audio channel and we should be able to get better resolutions/hertz. So is this possible?

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#4
Posted 06/10/2014 10:07 PM   
Sky, I answered your question two posts above yours.
Sky, I answered your question two posts above yours.

#5
Posted 06/11/2014 12:06 AM   
I don't think that you can separate out the audio channels to recover bandwidth, as my understanding is that the audio data is embedded in the video stream itself. See this discussion of the bandwidth, and how audio is embedded in the blanking intervals. Also Wikipedia says the same thing. http://www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth
I don't think that you can separate out the audio channels to recover bandwidth, as my understanding is that the audio data is embedded in the video stream itself.

See this discussion of the bandwidth, and how audio is embedded in the blanking intervals. Also Wikipedia says the same thing.


http://www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth

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#6
Posted 06/11/2014 06:39 AM   
^Probably not, but it does seem like there's more overhead in the cables that could be used to run higher 3d resolutions over HDMI.
^Probably not, but it does seem like there's more overhead in the cables that could be used to run higher 3d resolutions over HDMI.

#7
Posted 06/11/2014 11:02 AM   
bo3b, cannot see the link you posted because of a maintenance, however the audio data being embedded in the video stream still means it can be extracted somehow. Yes, the hardware might have been built around it so even if we extract, it might not have a use for us, however that just is a sign of bad design. The only justifiable reason for that can be zipping the data more efficiently when both are together. Reading your post itself carefully, the audio data being placed in the blank spots, it might still make it doable only if that blank area is big enough to handle 10-20Hz of 1080p. Same hardware limitations apply, yet again, this is just brainstorming and theorycrafting so, I'll call it ignorance is hope:P
bo3b, cannot see the link you posted because of a maintenance, however the audio data being embedded in the video stream still means it can be extracted somehow. Yes, the hardware might have been built around it so even if we extract, it might not have a use for us, however that just is a sign of bad design. The only justifiable reason for that can be zipping the data more efficiently when both are together.

Reading your post itself carefully, the audio data being placed in the blank spots, it might still make it doable only if that blank area is big enough to handle 10-20Hz of 1080p. Same hardware limitations apply, yet again, this is just brainstorming and theorycrafting so, I'll call it ignorance is hope:P

#8
Posted 06/11/2014 03:48 PM   
Ah. Well, it's certainly theoretical possible to recover that sort of bandwidth, but it would require some incredible heroics for little reward. You'd need to change the receiver, the TV/monitor to now know about embedded data as extra video data, somehow related to the main stream. More to the point, if you are going to do something heroic like that to gain bandwidth, then do something far better to gain much more bandwidth- compress the video stream. Right now it's uncompressed video. Even a lossless compression at 5% would gain you more bandwidth. But the unfortunate reality is that you can't do much of anything here, because the transceiver chips on both ends are built with the HDMI spec, and doing something beyond the spec would mean changing the chips. Or, changing the received data, but that would require some heavy lifting to modify a receiver. I've thought about that a couple of times, there's at least a small market for a 1080p projector that can handle higher bandwidth, and it would be interesting to change the guts of a projector to allow this. But this is really playing the deep end of the pool, because absolutely nothing will be documented, so it's all reverse-engineering. Probably doable, but super, super hard. Cached link: [url]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:B-S0TuhKjdIJ:www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us[/url] WayBackMachine copy: [url]http://web.archive.org/web/20131205062743/http://www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth[/url]
Ah. Well, it's certainly theoretical possible to recover that sort of bandwidth, but it would require some incredible heroics for little reward. You'd need to change the receiver, the TV/monitor to now know about embedded data as extra video data, somehow related to the main stream.

More to the point, if you are going to do something heroic like that to gain bandwidth, then do something far better to gain much more bandwidth- compress the video stream. Right now it's uncompressed video. Even a lossless compression at 5% would gain you more bandwidth.

But the unfortunate reality is that you can't do much of anything here, because the transceiver chips on both ends are built with the HDMI spec, and doing something beyond the spec would mean changing the chips. Or, changing the received data, but that would require some heavy lifting to modify a receiver.

I've thought about that a couple of times, there's at least a small market for a 1080p projector that can handle higher bandwidth, and it would be interesting to change the guts of a projector to allow this. But this is really playing the deep end of the pool, because absolutely nothing will be documented, so it's all reverse-engineering. Probably doable, but super, super hard.


Cached link:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:B-S0TuhKjdIJ:www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

WayBackMachine copy:
http://web.archive.org/web/20131205062743/http://www.avsforum.com/t/996218/how-to-calculate-hdmi-bandwidth

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#9
Posted 06/12/2014 12:06 AM   
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