I see mention of "fake 3D" ocasionally on here. What is it, and what are the differences
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I was hoping I could get some exampled so I could see what people mean when they say it. It was mentioned in the Battlefield 3 thread and I was curious.
I was hoping I could get some exampled so I could see what people mean when they say it.

It was mentioned in the Battlefield 3 thread and I was curious.

#1
Posted 08/18/2013 05:58 PM   
Look at the "3D" in crisis 2 or crisis 3, and then compare it to something like Skyrim. Cryengine creates its 3D by rendering 2 images, but the 2nd image is calculated in software from the 1st image, and this causes it to have almost no real depth, plus it has crap like halo's round the weapons. If you look at the image separation in these games and then look at the separation you get in proper stereo 3D games there is a massive difference in depth and 3D quality. Convergence is also locked in the Crysis games, which doesn't help, but if you mess about with it in the Crysis 3 CVAR config utility it just makes the gun halo's look even worse.
Look at the "3D" in crisis 2 or crisis 3, and then compare it to something like Skyrim.

Cryengine creates its 3D by rendering 2 images, but the 2nd image is calculated in software from the 1st image, and this causes it to have almost no real depth, plus it has crap like halo's round the weapons.

If you look at the image separation in these games and then look at the separation you get in proper stereo 3D games there is a massive difference in depth and 3D quality.

Convergence is also locked in the Crysis games, which doesn't help, but if you mess about with it in the Crysis 3 CVAR config utility it just makes the gun halo's look even worse.

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#2
Posted 08/18/2013 06:17 PM   
Basically, Real 3d: The entire scene is rendered twice, from two different "cameras" offset a little to create depth. Fake 3d: The entire scene is rendered once, then the depth information is extracted from the z buffer and the second angle is constructed using that depth information. It really limits how much depth/convergence you can have, and there are "halos" around objects close to the camera - as the software has no way of working out what should be drawn behind it in the second camera when that object is shifted over.
Basically,

Real 3d: The entire scene is rendered twice, from two different "cameras" offset a little to create depth.

Fake 3d: The entire scene is rendered once, then the depth information is extracted from the z buffer and the second angle is constructed using that depth information. It really limits how much depth/convergence you can have, and there are "halos" around objects close to the camera - as the software has no way of working out what should be drawn behind it in the second camera when that object is shifted over.

#3
Posted 08/18/2013 06:23 PM   
Basically it means instead of objects having depth it looks like a pop up book, you can tell how far things away are, but say, a sphere would look like a piece of paper you cut out and placed there, not an actual sphere.
Basically it means instead of objects having depth it looks like a pop up book, you can tell how far things away are, but say, a sphere would look like a piece of paper you cut out and placed there, not an actual sphere.

#4
Posted 08/18/2013 06:50 PM   
Alright I appreciate the posts helping me out. I get what you guys are talking about now. I'm guessing developers do it because either A) they're trying to not make it too resource intensive or B) don't want to put the time or efforts into proper 3D implementation. Thanks for explaining.
Alright I appreciate the posts helping me out. I get what you guys are talking about now. I'm guessing developers do it because either A) they're trying to not make it too resource intensive or B) don't want to put the time or efforts into proper 3D implementation.

Thanks for explaining.

#5
Posted 08/18/2013 08:15 PM   
Battlefield, it turns out, is real 3D. It would just score poorly on the GG3D scale because you cannot increase convergence without something breaking. (In B3's case: your weapon.) I can't think of many examples of fake 3D in gaming. There are more typical in cinema where the producers use software, post filming, to create the 3D effect. Like gaming, this produces a 3D effect well below par and is (I believe) one of the reasons 3D is flamed at cinemas. To justify my opinion, I remember people and critics universally liking 3D when they reviewed Beowolf then Avatar and Christmas Carol, that was probably because it was designed and filmed for 3D. [quote="Alo81"]Alright I appreciate the posts helping me out. I get what you guys are talking about now. I'm guessing developers do it because either A) they're trying to not make it too resource intensive or B) don't want to put the time or efforts into proper 3D implementation. Thanks for explaining. [/quote] Yeah I remember seeing a dev video for Crysis 2 where he commented on the high frames even with 3D. Edit Sorry to get on my high horse but I am becoming loath when devs try to get involved in 3D. For every Trine2/Witcher2 where it turned out OK there are too many who mess up. This could be through ignorance (Alan Wake where the dev was suprised to see his game run in 3D so advertised it as 3D even though it was pants) or greed like Bioshock 2, Borderlands2 or DE:HR (where the devs locked out nvidia for a time and it is still VERY VERY broken). Most devs tend to not get depth either and never offer enough by default forcing us to ask them to unlock it - Trine 2...
Battlefield, it turns out, is real 3D. It would just score poorly on the GG3D scale because you cannot increase convergence without something breaking. (In B3's case: your weapon.)

I can't think of many examples of fake 3D in gaming. There are more typical in cinema where the producers use software, post filming, to create the 3D effect. Like gaming, this produces a 3D effect well below par and is (I believe) one of the reasons 3D is flamed at cinemas. To justify my opinion, I remember people and critics universally liking 3D when they reviewed Beowolf then Avatar and Christmas Carol, that was probably because it was designed and filmed for 3D.

Alo81 said:Alright I appreciate the posts helping me out. I get what you guys are talking about now. I'm guessing developers do it because either A) they're trying to not make it too resource intensive or B) don't want to put the time or efforts into proper 3D implementation.

Thanks for explaining.


Yeah I remember seeing a dev video for Crysis 2 where he commented on the high frames even with 3D.


Edit

Sorry to get on my high horse but I am becoming loath when devs try to get involved in 3D. For every Trine2/Witcher2 where it turned out OK there are too many who mess up. This could be through ignorance (Alan Wake where the dev was suprised to see his game run in 3D so advertised it as 3D even though it was pants) or greed like Bioshock 2, Borderlands2 or DE:HR (where the devs locked out nvidia for a time and it is still VERY VERY broken). Most devs tend to not get depth either and never offer enough by default forcing us to ask them to unlock it - Trine 2...

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#6
Posted 08/18/2013 08:42 PM   
While we are on the topic can anyone post a 3d screenshot using default convergence settings in Crysis 2? I'm having trouble seeing the flaws. If discussing a dual 3D renderer for Crysis 2 I think a lot of problems would show as there are a lot of effects going on as far as I can see.
While we are on the topic can anyone post a 3d screenshot using default convergence settings in Crysis 2? I'm having trouble seeing the flaws.

If discussing a dual 3D renderer for Crysis 2 I think a lot of problems would show as there are a lot of effects going on as far as I can see.

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#7
Posted 08/18/2013 08:49 PM   
You should be able to see distortion around thing closer to camera. Anything exceeding 2D makes the distortion very apparent.
You should be able to see distortion around thing closer to camera. Anything exceeding 2D makes the distortion very apparent.

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#8
Posted 08/18/2013 09:03 PM   
They are clearly different in 3D mode compared to 2D mode. Thus left and right is not identical.
They are clearly different in 3D mode compared to 2D mode.

Thus left and right is not identical.

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#9
Posted 08/18/2013 09:04 PM   
Sorry, I misspoke. Very insignificant difference between left/ right eye. Unless you want horrible distortion. Either you can ramp up your settings and live with horrible distortion/ still bad 3d or.. the only thing that appears 3d is gun anything past like 2 feet away appears max distance [url]http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/specter/image/4d8d21d137850149469e0100/[/url] Like thats the limit of how much "3D effect" you can get out of it before objects show distortion around them. Anything past this point kind of beats the purpose of 3D which is immersion imo [Distortion detracts way too much from game]
Sorry, I misspoke.
Very insignificant difference between left/ right eye. Unless you want horrible distortion.

Either you can ramp up your settings and live with horrible distortion/ still bad 3d or..
the only thing that appears 3d is gun anything past like 2 feet away appears max distance

http://photos.3dvisionlive.com/specter/image/4d8d21d137850149469e0100/
Like thats the limit of how much "3D effect" you can get out of it before objects show distortion around them. Anything past this point kind of beats the purpose of 3D which is immersion imo [Distortion detracts way too much from game]

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#10
Posted 08/18/2013 10:25 PM   
Sorry, I'm still confused. Maybe being on a projector makes it less objectionable. I bought the Origin promo and got Crysis2 in that, and had never looked at it because of the bad reports. Here's a screenshot for something specific to look at. I set the 3D slider in game to max. I'm using anaglyph here because a lot of times it's easier to see what's happening in a specific picture. I also attach the original jps screenshot. [img]http://bo3b.net/Crysis2/Crysis2anaglyph.jpg[/img] Note the curving walkway to the left of the gunsight. Note how it increases in separation the farther from the gun you get. The gun here has no convergence and thus is in screen, I used totally stock settings, no mods yet. This all looks right to me. Maximum separation at distance could probably be a little better, but is not significantly different than what I normally see. I don't see any edge clipping, or halos around the guns or other items. I don't see anything that looks like the billboard effect. What am I missing here? (Always possible my standards are just low.)
Sorry, I'm still confused. Maybe being on a projector makes it less objectionable.

I bought the Origin promo and got Crysis2 in that, and had never looked at it because of the bad reports.


Here's a screenshot for something specific to look at. I set the 3D slider in game to max. I'm using anaglyph here because a lot of times it's easier to see what's happening in a specific picture. I also attach the original jps screenshot.

Image


Note the curving walkway to the left of the gunsight. Note how it increases in separation the farther from the gun you get. The gun here has no convergence and thus is in screen, I used totally stock settings, no mods yet.

This all looks right to me.

Maximum separation at distance could probably be a little better, but is not significantly different than what I normally see. I don't see any edge clipping, or halos around the guns or other items. I don't see anything that looks like the billboard effect.

What am I missing here? (Always possible my standards are just low.)

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#11
Posted 08/19/2013 08:03 AM   
Look at the JPS. Look around the right edge of the gun, and through the scope. You can see the halo there. Also, that's an extremely low depth for "max"
Look at the JPS. Look around the right edge of the gun, and through the scope. You can see the halo there.

Also, that's an extremely low depth for "max"

#12
Posted 08/19/2013 11:06 AM   
[quote="andysonofbob"] [b]Yeah I remember seeing a dev video for Crysis 2 where he commented on the high frames even with 3D.[/b] [/quote] Which was also during the height of the 3D push. This was a cheap trick for them to get the 3D checkbox filled on the back of the box. Ironically, it's awful 3D solutions like this that make up the vast majority of consumer experiences. And wrongly leads them to the conclusion 3D is a gimmick that sucks.
andysonofbob said:


Yeah I remember seeing a dev video for Crysis 2 where he commented on the high frames even with 3D.





Which was also during the height of the 3D push. This was a cheap trick for them to get the 3D checkbox filled on the back of the box.

Ironically, it's awful 3D solutions like this that make up the vast majority of consumer experiences. And wrongly leads them to the conclusion 3D is a gimmick that sucks.

#13
Posted 08/19/2013 01:58 PM   
[quote="bo3b"]Sorry, I'm still confused. Maybe being on a projector makes it less objectionable. I bought the Origin promo and got Crysis2 in that, and had never looked at it because of the bad reports. Here's a screenshot for something specific to look at. I set the 3D slider in game to max. I'm using anaglyph here because a lot of times it's easier to see what's happening in a specific picture. I also attach the original jps screenshot. [img]http://bo3b.net/Crysis2/Crysis2anaglyph.jpg[/img] Note the curving walkway to the left of the gunsight. Note how it increases in separation the farther from the gun you get. The gun here has no convergence and thus is in screen, I used totally stock settings, no mods yet. This all looks right to me. Maximum separation at distance could probably be a little better, but is not significantly different than what I normally see. I don't see any edge clipping, or halos around the guns or other items. I don't see anything that looks like the billboard effect. What am I missing here? (Always possible my standards are just low.)[/quote] Mate this is 2D with depth. If you look at my image I have superimposed the right view onto the left. Syncing it at the pavement. There is very little (if any at all) depth. :( edit You might want to download it an open it as a jpg.
bo3b said:Sorry, I'm still confused. Maybe being on a projector makes it less objectionable.

I bought the Origin promo and got Crysis2 in that, and had never looked at it because of the bad reports.


Here's a screenshot for something specific to look at. I set the 3D slider in game to max. I'm using anaglyph here because a lot of times it's easier to see what's happening in a specific picture. I also attach the original jps screenshot.

Image


Note the curving walkway to the left of the gunsight. Note how it increases in separation the farther from the gun you get. The gun here has no convergence and thus is in screen, I used totally stock settings, no mods yet.

This all looks right to me.

Maximum separation at distance could probably be a little better, but is not significantly different than what I normally see. I don't see any edge clipping, or halos around the guns or other items. I don't see anything that looks like the billboard effect.

What am I missing here? (Always possible my standards are just low.)


Mate this is 2D with depth. If you look at my image I have superimposed the right view onto the left. Syncing it at the pavement. There is very little (if any at all) depth. :(

edit
You might want to download it an open it as a jpg.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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Handy Driver Discussion
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3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes

#14
Posted 08/19/2013 08:06 PM   
I started tinkering with Crysis 2 today and I found that a 2-3cm separation on my 27" would mean a 6,5cm ish camera separation in-game. Setting 3d strength to 3 in the console resulted in approximatelly the right separation. [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img832/5429/aftr.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img404/1217/oi6u.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img28/835/kz5v.jpg[/IMG] In my esperience this fake 3D implementation is impressing me. Ever tried to convert a 2D Movie to 3D in realtime? I would definitelly rank it as good as some of the best 2D->3D converted movies. But in stark contrast to dual camera 3D you can't just crank up the depth to whatever you want and Everything will still work well.
I started tinkering with Crysis 2 today and I found that a 2-3cm separation on my 27" would mean a 6,5cm ish camera separation in-game.

Setting 3d strength to 3 in the console resulted in approximatelly the right separation.

Image
Image
Image

In my esperience this fake 3D implementation is impressing me.
Ever tried to convert a 2D Movie to 3D in realtime?

I would definitelly rank it as good as some of the best 2D->3D converted movies.

But in stark contrast to dual camera 3D you can't just crank up the depth to whatever you want and Everything will still work well.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

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#15
Posted 08/19/2013 09:41 PM   
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