Decline of 3D Vision - Thought you all should know - Dark Times Ahead :(
  8 / 14    
Guys, stop the drama :D I see nvidia has never been one for three dee. But I think you wont abandon us on AC unity nor AC COMET!!! :D who would like to sail without mike or bo3b or helifax or eqzitara ) cmon guys, if it is not you, then who is it?
Guys, stop the drama :D I see nvidia has never been one for three dee. But I think you wont abandon us on AC unity nor AC COMET!!! :D who would like to sail without mike or bo3b or helifax or eqzitara ) cmon guys, if it is not you, then who is it?

Win 7 64bit ; i7 4790K ; GTX 980 ASUS OC ;10 gb ram ; 353.06 ; 42" edid 3Dvision passive interleaved screen

Posted 07/28/2014 07:32 PM   
Well that sucks. For me 3D has been pretty much the only positive thing to happen to gaming since the turn of the century and you guy's efforts to keep it alive have more or less kept me from becoming an old-school-only gamer. Sure VR will eventually be a better experience and an even bigger step forward, but not all games are going to be designed with that in mind, so I'd like to think that 3D support won't die altogether for such games. Either way, I've still only scratched the surface of the huge amount of good 3D games already fixed so I'll be gaming with 3Dvision for years to come. Not touching any fake-3D junk though, barf.
Well that sucks. For me 3D has been pretty much the only positive thing to happen to gaming since the turn of the century and you guy's efforts to keep it alive have more or less kept me from becoming an old-school-only gamer.

Sure VR will eventually be a better experience and an even bigger step forward, but not all games are going to be designed with that in mind, so I'd like to think that 3D support won't die altogether for such games. Either way, I've still only scratched the surface of the huge amount of good 3D games already fixed so I'll be gaming with 3Dvision for years to come. Not touching any fake-3D junk though, barf.

Posted 07/28/2014 08:32 PM   
@mike I am fully aware that bo3b is working hard with 3Dmigoto. Not much to add except I had suprising amount of progress today. I am currently starting to improve the user interface. If you can contribute feel free to PM.
@mike I am fully aware that bo3b is working hard with 3Dmigoto.

Not much to add except I had suprising amount of progress today.

I am currently starting to improve the user interface.

If you can contribute feel free to PM.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

Posted 07/28/2014 10:49 PM   
[quote="jeno86"]without decent 3D vision support, there's nothing to keep me buying nvidia.[/quote] That's an interesting comment, because I've always thought the reason 3D Vision exists is to tie people down to using nvidia GPUs. Same reason nvidia purchased PhysX. It's not about the money they make from the glasses, assuming they even make any, it's about the money they make from you buying nvidia GPUs for 10 years. On paper it's a good strategy, it's just a shame they wouldn't employ one programmer to actually make 3D Vision good enough to achieve this. You just have to look at what Helix and eqzitara have achieved to see that nvidia could have almost every big game working great in S3D if they wanted it. I also think they did a miserable job advertising 3D Vision, to the point where most PC gamers still don't know it exists. Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread.
jeno86 said:without decent 3D vision support, there's nothing to keep me buying nvidia.

That's an interesting comment, because I've always thought the reason 3D Vision exists is to tie people down to using nvidia GPUs. Same reason nvidia purchased PhysX. It's not about the money they make from the glasses, assuming they even make any, it's about the money they make from you buying nvidia GPUs for 10 years.

On paper it's a good strategy, it's just a shame they wouldn't employ one programmer to actually make 3D Vision good enough to achieve this. You just have to look at what Helix and eqzitara have achieved to see that nvidia could have almost every big game working great in S3D if they wanted it. I also think they did a miserable job advertising 3D Vision, to the point where most PC gamers still don't know it exists.

Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread.

Posted 07/29/2014 12:19 AM   
I've been using 3Dvision for a bit over a year, and throughout most of that time, people have been declaring the death of 3D for one reason or another. Meanwhile, it has felt very much alive to me, with some 90% of the games I've wanted to play being 3dvision compatible, and I've loved every minute of it. Bob is right. The future looked much bleaker about 6 months ago, when Helix disappeared and all hope for a dx11 fix was lost, yet there was none of this doom and gloom fanfare. The difference was that Helix quietly receded into the night without making an official community statement as mike and eqzitara have. If he had made such a statement, the funeral procession for 3Dvision would have been even more sombre than this one. Yet the world didn't end without Helix, as the DX11 3Dmigoto has shown. Obviously, Mike and eqzitara's absence will be felt. They've given more of themselves than could be reasonably expected of anybody. They're heroes of the community. There'll certainly be fewer DX9 fixes for a while with eqzitara gone, but dX9 is dying anyway. And even with Mike gone, the future for DX11 games looks better than it did this time last year. Anyone who 'jumps ship' to the Oculus Rift and expects things to be half as good as how they are for 3Dvision - let alone better - is in for a nasty surprise. Things have probably improved a little since the last time I used the Rift, but the last time I checked, things there were dismal. Zero AAA game support today or in the foreseeable future. Almost nothing that you'd dare call 'Oculus-Rift-Ready' barring a few mediocre demos and decade-old Source games. A confusing array of third-party mods that try to fix games, none of which are particularly easy to use or effective in any widespread sense. Even the few games that are fixed don't feel right, because of various UI complications. And then there's the small mountain of hardware problems yet to be solved, no doubt including several that are yet to be discovered. And remember, this is all in a pre-release climate, where everything's experimental and everyone's forgiving. If the Rift were to be commercially released in its current state tomorrow, the public and press would tear it to shreds. Sure, the Rift has infinitely more public goodwill and corporate dollars behind it, so it will eventually be a rich, user-friendly gaming landscape teeming with great games. But that day is years away, not months. Yep, 3Dvision is a slowly sinking ship, but it's been sinking for years, yet has still managed to remained seaworthy all this time. Meanwhile, the Oculus Rift is a bunch of half-assembled planks and scaffolding at the shipyards. If you want to actually spend time at sea, there's still only one feasible option for now.
I've been using 3Dvision for a bit over a year, and throughout most of that time, people have been declaring the death of 3D for one reason or another. Meanwhile, it has felt very much alive to me, with some 90% of the games I've wanted to play being 3dvision compatible, and I've loved every minute of it.

Bob is right. The future looked much bleaker about 6 months ago, when Helix disappeared and all hope for a dx11 fix was lost, yet there was none of this doom and gloom fanfare. The difference was that Helix quietly receded into the night without making an official community statement as mike and eqzitara have. If he had made such a statement, the funeral procession for 3Dvision would have been even more sombre than this one. Yet the world didn't end without Helix, as the DX11 3Dmigoto has shown.

Obviously, Mike and eqzitara's absence will be felt. They've given more of themselves than could be reasonably expected of anybody. They're heroes of the community. There'll certainly be fewer DX9 fixes for a while with eqzitara gone, but dX9 is dying anyway. And even with Mike gone, the future for DX11 games looks better than it did this time last year.

Anyone who 'jumps ship' to the Oculus Rift and expects things to be half as good as how they are for 3Dvision - let alone better - is in for a nasty surprise. Things have probably improved a little since the last time I used the Rift, but the last time I checked, things there were dismal. Zero AAA game support today or in the foreseeable future. Almost nothing that you'd dare call 'Oculus-Rift-Ready' barring a few mediocre demos and decade-old Source games. A confusing array of third-party mods that try to fix games, none of which are particularly easy to use or effective in any widespread sense.

Even the few games that are fixed don't feel right, because of various UI complications. And then there's the small mountain of hardware problems yet to be solved, no doubt including several that are yet to be discovered. And remember, this is all in a pre-release climate, where everything's experimental and everyone's forgiving. If the Rift were to be commercially released in its current state tomorrow, the public and press would tear it to shreds.

Sure, the Rift has infinitely more public goodwill and corporate dollars behind it, so it will eventually be a rich, user-friendly gaming landscape teeming with great games. But that day is years away, not months. Yep, 3Dvision is a slowly sinking ship, but it's been sinking for years, yet has still managed to remained seaworthy all this time. Meanwhile, the Oculus Rift is a bunch of half-assembled planks and scaffolding at the shipyards. If you want to actually spend time at sea, there's still only one feasible option for now.

ImageVolnaPC.com - Tips, tweaks, performance comparisons (PhysX card, SLI scaling, etc)

Posted 07/29/2014 01:00 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]@mike I am fully aware that bo3b is working hard with 3Dmigoto. Not much to add except I had suprising amount of progress today. I am currently starting to improve the user interface. If you can contribute feel free to PM.[/quote] Sorry - did not mean to sound terse, was at work ...;-)
Flugan said:@mike I am fully aware that bo3b is working hard with 3Dmigoto.

Not much to add except I had suprising amount of progress today.

I am currently starting to improve the user interface.

If you can contribute feel free to PM.

Sorry - did not mean to sound terse, was at work ...;-)

Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278

Posted 07/29/2014 02:01 AM   
It's a shame to see such excellent modders move on, but it is understandable. I had actually started learning shader modding myself over the last year, even submitting comments to the helixmod blog for games like Miasmata and Assassins Creed II where I had fixed or improved upon the existing mods. I was just starting to try to learn some more advanced techniques, like adjusting crosshair depth based on the Z-buffer rather than constants, when my 3D Alienware laptop decided to die on me back in April. It's still in for repair at the moment (Dell really dropped the ball on this one), but I'm still keen on learning more and contributing 3D fixes as I get better. Eqzitara's post mentions that the web server & file server will remain online for years, but I do wonder if it will be kept up to date with new mods by other members of the community? I have wondered if a wiki might be better suited to the nature of these mods (the blog does seem sensible for announcing new mods as it is at the moment)? Perhaps with Mike and Eqzitara leaving they might consider documenting some more advanced techniques (such as the crosshair depth to Z-buffer depth I just mentioned) - at least give us an idea of how these work if they can't be generalised. I'd also love to see Helix mod open sourced and tracked on github. I'm an open source developer (day job & hobby) and tend to do a lot of "drive-by coding" - that is, if I'm using a project and find an issue, I'll checkout it's source code, figure out what the issue is and then submit a patch to fix it to the project. I've done this on numerous projects already, including zsnes, apvlv, the Linux kernel, SDL_Mixer, pentadactyl and The GIMP. While trying to learn shader modding with Helix mod I've come across issues with it that I would love to fix - mostly just simple stuff, like a typo in a shader override file causes the original shader to be used rather than giving me a verbose warning, or the fact that the keybinding to reload shaders on the fly just doesn't seem to work, or the fact that some config options seem to be ignored when using the debug version of helix mod. These are the kind of things I could pretty easily fix myself if it was open source. Another advantage to open sourcing it would be that it would give us the ultimate guaranteed to always be up to date documentation for how to use it - the source code itself. Obviously there's no substitute for guides written by the experts, but sometimes I just want to know how to correctly use some obscure option that I've seen another mod using, or if some debug option that was documented in an old guide on the forums but doesn't seem to work for me even still exists?
It's a shame to see such excellent modders move on, but it is understandable.

I had actually started learning shader modding myself over the last year, even submitting comments to the helixmod blog for games like Miasmata and Assassins Creed II where I had fixed or improved upon the existing mods.

I was just starting to try to learn some more advanced techniques, like adjusting crosshair depth based on the Z-buffer rather than constants, when my 3D Alienware laptop decided to die on me back in April. It's still in for repair at the moment (Dell really dropped the ball on this one), but I'm still keen on learning more and contributing 3D fixes as I get better.

Eqzitara's post mentions that the web server & file server will remain online for years, but I do wonder if it will be kept up to date with new mods by other members of the community? I have wondered if a wiki might be better suited to the nature of these mods (the blog does seem sensible for announcing new mods as it is at the moment)?

Perhaps with Mike and Eqzitara leaving they might consider documenting some more advanced techniques (such as the crosshair depth to Z-buffer depth I just mentioned) - at least give us an idea of how these work if they can't be generalised.

I'd also love to see Helix mod open sourced and tracked on github. I'm an open source developer (day job & hobby) and tend to do a lot of "drive-by coding" - that is, if I'm using a project and find an issue, I'll checkout it's source code, figure out what the issue is and then submit a patch to fix it to the project. I've done this on numerous projects already, including zsnes, apvlv, the Linux kernel, SDL_Mixer, pentadactyl and The GIMP.

While trying to learn shader modding with Helix mod I've come across issues with it that I would love to fix - mostly just simple stuff, like a typo in a shader override file causes the original shader to be used rather than giving me a verbose warning, or the fact that the keybinding to reload shaders on the fly just doesn't seem to work, or the fact that some config options seem to be ignored when using the debug version of helix mod. These are the kind of things I could pretty easily fix myself if it was open source.

Another advantage to open sourcing it would be that it would give us the ultimate guaranteed to always be up to date documentation for how to use it - the source code itself. Obviously there's no substitute for guides written by the experts, but sometimes I just want to know how to correctly use some obscure option that I've seen another mod using, or if some debug option that was documented in an old guide on the forums but doesn't seem to work for me even still exists?

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Posted 07/29/2014 04:02 AM   
@DarkStarSword Awesome. [quote="Milamber*"]If I can be taught I will learn and learn fast too.[/quote] Time for me to put the money where my mouth is and say, "Me too!" For purely selfish reasons, I would like to know how to fix DX9 games as well learn how to update previously fixed shaders that have become broken due to patches etc. e.g. Rome2. I would also like to learn how to fix 3DMitogo too - again for purely selfish reasons. (If I want to fix a game, I can just do it.) And then share it obviously... How long would you say it would take me to learn and say fix a previously fixed game like Rome2? (Copy a good example...) Thanks!
@DarkStarSword

Awesome.

Milamber* said:If I can be taught I will learn and learn fast too.


Time for me to put the money where my mouth is and say, "Me too!"

For purely selfish reasons, I would like to know how to fix DX9 games as well learn how to update previously fixed shaders that have become broken due to patches etc. e.g. Rome2.

I would also like to learn how to fix 3DMitogo too - again for purely selfish reasons. (If I want to fix a game, I can just do it.) And then share it obviously...

How long would you say it would take me to learn and say fix a previously fixed game like Rome2? (Copy a good example...)

Thanks!

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
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3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes

Posted 07/29/2014 10:16 AM   
[quote="fish99"] On paper it's a good strategy, it's just a shame they wouldn't employ one programmer to actually make 3D Vision good enough to achieve this. You just have to look at what Helix and eqzitara have achieved to see that nvidia could have almost every big game working great in S3D if they wanted it. I also think they did a miserable job advertising 3D Vision, to the point where most PC gamers still don't know it exists. Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread.[/quote] Please, and for the last time: Nvidia -as a company- has not the right to use or alter software parts of external studios and redistribute them. Copyright laws does not allow that. So stop blame Nvidia not wanting or being able to do what has been done by helix modders. All they can do is to "hack" shaders on-the-fly using specific drivers, or use fake 3D methods. That's why they will never hire Helix, or anyone else, to do a full time job fixing games.
fish99 said:
On paper it's a good strategy, it's just a shame they wouldn't employ one programmer to actually make 3D Vision good enough to achieve this. You just have to look at what Helix and eqzitara have achieved to see that nvidia could have almost every big game working great in S3D if they wanted it. I also think they did a miserable job advertising 3D Vision, to the point where most PC gamers still don't know it exists.

Anyway, this is probably a discussion for another thread.


Please, and for the last time: Nvidia -as a company- has not the right to use or alter software parts of external studios and redistribute them. Copyright laws does not allow that. So stop blame Nvidia not wanting or being able to do what has been done by helix modders. All they can do is to "hack" shaders on-the-fly using specific drivers, or use fake 3D methods.

That's why they will never hire Helix, or anyone else, to do a full time job fixing games.

Posted 07/29/2014 10:33 AM   
at least for their own TWIMTBP games they could! Nvidia pay money so they could influence (nearly) anything. If only they wanted to.
at least for their own TWIMTBP games they could! Nvidia pay money so they could influence (nearly) anything. If only they wanted to.

Posted 07/29/2014 11:29 AM   
NVidia could do something similar to Tridef
NVidia could do something similar to Tridef

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

Posted 07/29/2014 12:43 PM   
[quote="Laast"]Please, and for the last time: Nvidia -as a company- has not the right to use or alter software parts of external studios and redistribute them. Copyright laws does not allow that. So stop blame Nvidia not wanting or being able to do what has been done by helix modders. All they can do is to "hack" shaders on-the-fly using specific drivers, or use fake 3D methods. That's why they will never hire Helix, or anyone else, to do a full time job fixing games.[/quote] This is my understanding as well. What I've not gotten a good sense of is, as zig11727 suggests above, why Tridef can successfully "fix" games while Nvidia cannot. If Tridef is simply using driver level solutions, why can't Nvidia do the same? Could it be a gray legal issue where Tridef is willing to take a risk while Nvidia wants to play it safe?
Laast said:Please, and for the last time: Nvidia -as a company- has not the right to use or alter software parts of external studios and redistribute them. Copyright laws does not allow that. So stop blame Nvidia not wanting or being able to do what has been done by helix modders. All they can do is to "hack" shaders on-the-fly using specific drivers, or use fake 3D methods.

That's why they will never hire Helix, or anyone else, to do a full time job fixing games.


This is my understanding as well.

What I've not gotten a good sense of is, as zig11727 suggests above, why Tridef can successfully "fix" games while Nvidia cannot. If Tridef is simply using driver level solutions, why can't Nvidia do the same? Could it be a gray legal issue where Tridef is willing to take a risk while Nvidia wants to play it safe?

Posted 07/29/2014 01:08 PM   
sad news, but no to be expected. Eqzitara, you were a great asset to the community. I'm glad to see your moving onto another platform though as opposed to completely disappearing. I am still yet to try an Oculus (waiting for the full on consumer Model) but it seems to already have more support from tech sites and reviews than Nvidia 3D ever had (which I find weird). Thanks again to all the guys who put in hours of work for the community on here. You work will always be appreciated by me, and you have my complete support and understanding to hang up your gloves.
sad news, but no to be expected. Eqzitara, you were a great asset to the community. I'm glad to see your moving onto another platform though as opposed to completely disappearing. I am still yet to try an Oculus (waiting for the full on consumer Model) but it seems to already have more support from tech sites and reviews than Nvidia 3D ever had (which I find weird).

Thanks again to all the guys who put in hours of work for the community on here. You work will always be appreciated by me, and you have my complete support and understanding to hang up your gloves.

OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti

Posted 07/29/2014 04:05 PM   
@Volnaiskra have you tried Tridef, Vorpx or Vireio wrappers with the Oculus Rift? They work surprisingly well for commercial games. The biggest issue is that increasing the FOV can hide the interface in some cases, though Vorpx made a great tool with "edge peek" to help with that. Still I've tried lots of commercial games and they work great in 3d and at least for me, they are more immersive with the OR than 3d vision, though DK1 limitations made it not worth the effort in the end. However all wrapper developers for OR are releasing versions of their wrappers for DK2, so even if dedicated content for VR is scarce, you can still play many commercial games with those wrappers.
@Volnaiskra have you tried Tridef, Vorpx or Vireio wrappers with the Oculus Rift? They work surprisingly well for commercial games. The biggest issue is that increasing the FOV can hide the interface in some cases, though Vorpx made a great tool with "edge peek" to help with that. Still I've tried lots of commercial games and they work great in 3d and at least for me, they are more immersive with the OR than 3d vision, though DK1 limitations made it not worth the effort in the end. However all wrapper developers for OR are releasing versions of their wrappers for DK2, so even if dedicated content for VR is scarce, you can still play many commercial games with those wrappers.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

Posted 07/29/2014 08:48 PM   
[quote="andysonofbob"] For purely selfish reasons, I would like to know how to fix DX9 games as well learn how to update previously fixed shaders that have become broken due to patches etc. e.g. Rome2. How long would you say it would take me to learn and say fix a previously fixed game like Rome2? (Copy a good example...) [/quote] Hi Andy - I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be documenting top tips for fixing DX9 games, and I will include in that DX11 Migoto as well. Regarding Rome2, that was a difficult fix if I am being completely honest with you, however if you remember I did a WIP fix for Shogun 2 that was finished off and published by Kankegeforce on the blog. I wrote some details about the shadow pixel shaders for those games (they are the same) in the thread at the time (starts here: [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/513190/3d-vision/how-to-fix-disable-shaders-in-games-dll-guide-and-fixes-/post/4069186/#4069186[/url]). Not sure how useful it will be.
andysonofbob said:
For purely selfish reasons, I would like to know how to fix DX9 games as well learn how to update previously fixed shaders that have become broken due to patches etc. e.g. Rome2.

How long would you say it would take me to learn and say fix a previously fixed game like Rome2? (Copy a good example...)

Hi Andy - I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be documenting top tips for fixing DX9 games, and I will include in that DX11 Migoto as well. Regarding Rome2, that was a difficult fix if I am being completely honest with you, however if you remember I did a WIP fix for Shogun 2 that was finished off and published by Kankegeforce on the blog. I wrote some details about the shadow pixel shaders for those games (they are the same) in the thread at the time (starts here: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/513190/3d-vision/how-to-fix-disable-shaders-in-games-dll-guide-and-fixes-/post/4069186/#4069186). Not sure how useful it will be.

Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278

Posted 07/29/2014 09:28 PM   
  8 / 14    
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