Hello!
I currently own a GTX 760 2GB, and I'm planning on buying a 3D Vision Monitor.
Now 1. When I buy a 2nd GTX 760 will they be able to render seperately the frames for my left and right eye? 2. How well would a single GTX 760 perform with 3D Vision? (On Current-Next Gen games like Titanfall Assassin's Creed 4) vs two GTX 760 in SLI? Is there still that microstuttering everyone's complaining about?
Thanks!
Hello!
I currently own a GTX 760 2GB, and I'm planning on buying a 3D Vision Monitor.
Now 1. When I buy a 2nd GTX 760 will they be able to render seperately the frames for my left and right eye? 2. How well would a single GTX 760 perform with 3D Vision? (On Current-Next Gen games like Titanfall Assassin's Creed 4) vs two GTX 760 in SLI? Is there still that microstuttering everyone's complaining about?
3D vision enables vsync to work at all.
Whatever the settings 3D Vison forces vsync.
There is very good scaling with SLI almost double the performance
In 2D the scaling is about 50-70% depending on game.
[quote="Flugan"]3D vision enables vsync to work at all.
Whatever the settings 3D Vison forces vsync.
There is very good scaling with SLI almost double the performance
In 2D the scaling is about 50-70% depending on game.[/quote]
So you would recommend the second GTX 760? How about microstutters?
I've gone from one 580 to SLI.
It ended up fairly costly as my motherboard stopped working.
Had to replace motherboard as well as CPU.
The new motherboard has a nice spacing between the size 2 Graphics cards.
[quote="Flugan"]I've gone from one 580 to SLI.
It ended up fairly costly as my motherboard stopped working.
Had to replace motherboard as well as CPU.
The new motherboard has a nice spacing between the size 2 Graphics cards.[/quote]
Can you see any microstutters?
And I think my i7 4770k and Asus Gryphon Z87 should handle it :)
With vsync on which is how I usually play 99% of the time in both 2D and 3D I can't say I've seen microstutter.
Only way to turn of VSYNC is to turn off 3D in the control panel which I tend to forget when playing 2D. I find VSYNC on to be less of a problem at refreshrate >=120hz on the monitor.
With vsync on which is how I usually play 99% of the time in both 2D and 3D I can't say I've seen microstutter.
Only way to turn of VSYNC is to turn off 3D in the control panel which I tend to forget when playing 2D. I find VSYNC on to be less of a problem at refreshrate >=120hz on the monitor.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
Definitely get a second one. In most games (not all), the second card will give you a really significant performance increase in 3d, as you get a card rendering each eye. There are some exceptions to this though. Assassin's Creed 3 (aside from being horribly optimised in general) receives almost no performance boost from SLI. I've not yet tested AC4, but from what I've heard it's better optimised - but still not well optimised.
Titanfall actually performs noticeably worse with two cards (in 2d and 3d), however this is something Respawn and nVidia are currently working on fixing.
A lot of the time though, SLI gives you much better performance, and microstuttering isn't an issue.
As for 3d in the titles you've mentioned:
AC4 uses a depth buffer method of 3d. It's not ideal, in that it doesn't actually render the frame twice - it renders once and works out an approximation of what the second frame should look like. This results in a blurry "halo" effect around objects closer to your face. It's a big improvement over 2d, but it's not ideal. There are people (Flugan is one of them) looking into "fixing" AC4 to run in proper 3d (which would look incredible), but it's not a fast process, and there are no guarantees.
As for Titanfall, 3d is about 70% of what it needs to be. 3d works, and looks good...mostly. Things that are in the distance (beyond the playable area) render closer than they should be. It's visually confusing, but as most of your attention is on the battlefield and you're not gazing off too much, it's not a major issue. The more significant issue is the fact that the HUD (including crosshair) is rendered at "screen depth". Try holding your finger in front of your nose and looking at an object behind it. See how it splits in two? The crosshair does that, making it functionally useless. nVidia do have a "laser sight" that appears at the correct depth, but you have to learn to tune out the distracting hud elements to play. It's annoying, but playable (and gives a great sense of scale, particularly when in a titan).
So while I'd still encourage you to make the leap to 3d and get a second card (as it really is amazing), just temper your expectations a little, as it's rarely a trouble-free experience.
Also, it's well worth spending time on these forums. You'll learn all the tricks to get games working their best.
Definitely get a second one. In most games (not all), the second card will give you a really significant performance increase in 3d, as you get a card rendering each eye. There are some exceptions to this though. Assassin's Creed 3 (aside from being horribly optimised in general) receives almost no performance boost from SLI. I've not yet tested AC4, but from what I've heard it's better optimised - but still not well optimised.
Titanfall actually performs noticeably worse with two cards (in 2d and 3d), however this is something Respawn and nVidia are currently working on fixing.
A lot of the time though, SLI gives you much better performance, and microstuttering isn't an issue.
As for 3d in the titles you've mentioned:
AC4 uses a depth buffer method of 3d. It's not ideal, in that it doesn't actually render the frame twice - it renders once and works out an approximation of what the second frame should look like. This results in a blurry "halo" effect around objects closer to your face. It's a big improvement over 2d, but it's not ideal. There are people (Flugan is one of them) looking into "fixing" AC4 to run in proper 3d (which would look incredible), but it's not a fast process, and there are no guarantees.
As for Titanfall, 3d is about 70% of what it needs to be. 3d works, and looks good...mostly. Things that are in the distance (beyond the playable area) render closer than they should be. It's visually confusing, but as most of your attention is on the battlefield and you're not gazing off too much, it's not a major issue. The more significant issue is the fact that the HUD (including crosshair) is rendered at "screen depth". Try holding your finger in front of your nose and looking at an object behind it. See how it splits in two? The crosshair does that, making it functionally useless. nVidia do have a "laser sight" that appears at the correct depth, but you have to learn to tune out the distracting hud elements to play. It's annoying, but playable (and gives a great sense of scale, particularly when in a titan).
So while I'd still encourage you to make the leap to 3d and get a second card (as it really is amazing), just temper your expectations a little, as it's rarely a trouble-free experience.
Also, it's well worth spending time on these forums. You'll learn all the tricks to get games working their best.
[quote="Flugan"]Just checked, your motherboard is not ideal for SLI. there will be a tiny airgap between cards.[/quote]
Oh, what does that mean? Won't I be able to SLI?
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]Definitely get a second one. In most games (not all), the second card will give you a really significant performance increase in 3d, as you get a card rendering each eye. There are some exceptions to this though. Assassin's Creed 3 (aside from being horribly optimised in general) receives almost no performance boost from SLI. I've not yet tested AC4, but from what I've heard it's better optimised - but still not well optimised.
Titanfall actually performs noticeably worse with two cards (in 2d and 3d), however this is something Respawn and nVidia are currently working on fixing.
A lot of the time though, SLI gives you much better performance, and microstuttering isn't an issue.
As for 3d in the titles you've mentioned:
AC4 uses a depth buffer method of 3d. It's not ideal, in that it doesn't actually render the frame twice - it renders once and works out an approximation of what the second frame should look like. This results in a blurry "halo" effect around objects closer to your face. It's a big improvement over 2d, but it's not ideal. There are people (Flugan is one of them) looking into "fixing" AC4 to run in proper 3d (which would look incredible), but it's not a fast process, and there are no guarantees.
As for Titanfall, 3d is about 70% of what it needs to be. 3d works, and looks good...mostly. Things that are in the distance (beyond the playable area) render closer than they should be. It's visually confusing, but as most of your attention is on the battlefield and you're not gazing off too much, it's not a major issue. The more significant issue is the fact that the HUD (including crosshair) is rendered at "screen depth". Try holding your finger in front of your nose and looking at an object behind it. See how it splits in two? The crosshair does that, making it functionally useless. nVidia do have a "laser sight" that appears at the correct depth, but you have to learn to tune out the distracting hud elements to play. It's annoying, but playable (and gives a great sense of scale, particularly when in a titan).
So while I'd still encourage you to make the leap to 3d and get a second card (as it really is amazing), just temper your expectations a little, as it's rarely a trouble-free experience.
Also, it's well worth spending time on these forums. You'll learn all the tricks to get games working their best.[/quote]
Wow, thanks for the long text. About the microstuttering, I've heard that it's very person-dependent, and I would call my self very high-sensitive about frame rates.
So you like 3D? And where do I find the 3D-Vision Ready gamelist?
I think I'm gonna do like this:
1. Buy a 3D Monitor (hopefully with give-back guarantee)
2. If I like how my single GTX 760 performs I'll stay with it, if I don't like it I'll buy another GTX 760 with give-back guarantee, and I'll try them to run in SLI, and if I expierence any microstutters I will give the monitor + 2nd GTX 760 back.
Sounds like a good plan? :D
Thanks for your responses!
Flugan said:Just checked, your motherboard is not ideal for SLI. there will be a tiny airgap between cards.
Oh, what does that mean? Won't I be able to SLI?
Pirateguybrush said:Definitely get a second one. In most games (not all), the second card will give you a really significant performance increase in 3d, as you get a card rendering each eye. There are some exceptions to this though. Assassin's Creed 3 (aside from being horribly optimised in general) receives almost no performance boost from SLI. I've not yet tested AC4, but from what I've heard it's better optimised - but still not well optimised.
Titanfall actually performs noticeably worse with two cards (in 2d and 3d), however this is something Respawn and nVidia are currently working on fixing.
A lot of the time though, SLI gives you much better performance, and microstuttering isn't an issue.
As for 3d in the titles you've mentioned:
AC4 uses a depth buffer method of 3d. It's not ideal, in that it doesn't actually render the frame twice - it renders once and works out an approximation of what the second frame should look like. This results in a blurry "halo" effect around objects closer to your face. It's a big improvement over 2d, but it's not ideal. There are people (Flugan is one of them) looking into "fixing" AC4 to run in proper 3d (which would look incredible), but it's not a fast process, and there are no guarantees.
As for Titanfall, 3d is about 70% of what it needs to be. 3d works, and looks good...mostly. Things that are in the distance (beyond the playable area) render closer than they should be. It's visually confusing, but as most of your attention is on the battlefield and you're not gazing off too much, it's not a major issue. The more significant issue is the fact that the HUD (including crosshair) is rendered at "screen depth". Try holding your finger in front of your nose and looking at an object behind it. See how it splits in two? The crosshair does that, making it functionally useless. nVidia do have a "laser sight" that appears at the correct depth, but you have to learn to tune out the distracting hud elements to play. It's annoying, but playable (and gives a great sense of scale, particularly when in a titan).
So while I'd still encourage you to make the leap to 3d and get a second card (as it really is amazing), just temper your expectations a little, as it's rarely a trouble-free experience.
Also, it's well worth spending time on these forums. You'll learn all the tricks to get games working their best.
Wow, thanks for the long text. About the microstuttering, I've heard that it's very person-dependent, and I would call my self very high-sensitive about frame rates.
So you like 3D? And where do I find the 3D-Vision Ready gamelist?
I think I'm gonna do like this:
1. Buy a 3D Monitor (hopefully with give-back guarantee)
2. If I like how my single GTX 760 performs I'll stay with it, if I don't like it I'll buy another GTX 760 with give-back guarantee, and I'll try them to run in SLI, and if I expierence any microstutters I will give the monitor + 2nd GTX 760 back.
Sounds like a good plan? :D
Yep, that's a good plan. The best way to find out if a game is 3d ready is to google it, or ask here.
Also, this is your new best friend. There's a great group of people who fix broken games in 3d (though DX11 is proving to be a different beast altogether and fixes are in their infancy)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
As for the microstuttering, I'd imagine it's unlikely to be as noticeable in 3d, because each card renders one "eye", as opposed to the other ways in which SLI works.
Yep, that's a good plan. The best way to find out if a game is 3d ready is to google it, or ask here.
Also, this is your new best friend. There's a great group of people who fix broken games in 3d (though DX11 is proving to be a different beast altogether and fixes are in their infancy)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
As for the microstuttering, I'd imagine it's unlikely to be as noticeable in 3d, because each card renders one "eye", as opposed to the other ways in which SLI works.
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]
Also, this is your new best friend. There's a great group of people who fix broken games in 3d (though DX11 is proving to be a different beast altogether and fixes are in their infancy)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com[/quote]
Thank you! There doesn't seem to be any information about AC4 though?
And BTW, Battlefield 4 hasn't got 3D Vision support right?
Oh, and what monitor do you use? And do you know if the Asus VG278H is compatible with a mac?
Thanks!
Also, this is your new best friend. There's a great group of people who fix broken games in 3d (though DX11 is proving to be a different beast altogether and fixes are in their infancy)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
Thank you! There doesn't seem to be any information about AC4 though?
And BTW, Battlefield 4 hasn't got 3D Vision support right?
Oh, and what monitor do you use? And do you know if the Asus VG278H is compatible with a mac?
Thanks!
No info about AC4 because there's no fix available yet, and everything pertaining to DX11 fixes is very much in it's infancy.
Battlefield 4 I'm not sure about, but I don't think it works. If it does, it'll be with the depth buffer 3d, which isn't as good (and this method doesn't benefit as much from SLI cards, it seems)
I use an Asys VG278H, no idea if it works on a mac.
No info about AC4 because there's no fix available yet, and everything pertaining to DX11 fixes is very much in it's infancy.
Battlefield 4 I'm not sure about, but I don't think it works. If it does, it'll be with the depth buffer 3d, which isn't as good (and this method doesn't benefit as much from SLI cards, it seems)
I use an Asys VG278H, no idea if it works on a mac.
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]
I use an Asys VG278H, no idea if it works on a mac.[/quote]
As it has a VGA input, shouldn't it be able to just run "normally" as a monitor? I wouldn't be using 3D Stuff on the mac, as there isn't something like that, but I mean what display is one, that couldn't work simply as a display?
Pirateguybrush said:
I use an Asys VG278H, no idea if it works on a mac.
As it has a VGA input, shouldn't it be able to just run "normally" as a monitor? I wouldn't be using 3D Stuff on the mac, as there isn't something like that, but I mean what display is one, that couldn't work simply as a display?
Since you are frame-rate sensitive, I'm pretty sure that you will not be happy with a single 760 for 3D, but your plan to try it first is sound.
The GTX 760 usually has DVI connectors which are far better than VGA for monitor connection, why do you feel you would use VGA?
What Mac are you using? In general Macs tend to not emphasize CPU, and in 3D CPU can be more important than better GPUs. The only Mac I know of that is expandable is the old Mac Pro, and the CPU on that will be a bottleneck for 3D, especially in games like BF3.
Here is a list of games that have been fixed with HelixMods. They tend to be older games because those are possible to fix, at present no DX11 games are possible to fix, with the only exception being Bioshock Infinite.
[url]http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2013/07/game-list-full.html[/url]
Here is a list of games that were voted as being the best experience by people on the forum:
[url]http://lists.bo3b.net/s3d/[/url]
Since you are frame-rate sensitive, I'm pretty sure that you will not be happy with a single 760 for 3D, but your plan to try it first is sound.
The GTX 760 usually has DVI connectors which are far better than VGA for monitor connection, why do you feel you would use VGA?
What Mac are you using? In general Macs tend to not emphasize CPU, and in 3D CPU can be more important than better GPUs. The only Mac I know of that is expandable is the old Mac Pro, and the CPU on that will be a bottleneck for 3D, especially in games like BF3.
Here is a list of games that have been fixed with HelixMods. They tend to be older games because those are possible to fix, at present no DX11 games are possible to fix, with the only exception being Bioshock Infinite.
[quote="bo3b"]Since you are frame-rate sensitive, I'm pretty sure that you will not be happy with a single 760 for 3D, but your plan to try it first is sound.
The GTX 760 usually has DVI connectors which are far better than VGA for monitor connection, why do you feel you would use VGA?
What Mac are you using? In general Macs tend to not emphasize CPU, and in 3D CPU can be more important than better GPUs. The only Mac I know of that is expandable is the old Mac Pro, and the CPU on that will be a bottleneck for 3D, especially in games like BF3.
Here is a list of games that have been fixed with HelixMods. They tend to be older games because those are possible to fix, at present no DX11 games are possible to fix, with the only exception being Bioshock Infinite.
[url]http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2013/07/game-list-full.html[/url]
Here is a list of games that were voted as being the best experience by people on the forum:
[url]http://lists.bo3b.net/s3d/[/url][/quote]
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant to say "I don't use 3D on a mac, and I want to connect the monitor to the mac with VGA/DVI". I will most probably use HDMI to connect the monitor with my GTX 760. Unless my 760 hasnt got a HDMI connector, although I'm pretty sure about that.
And at the moment, I'm kinda sad about it but I guess you're right, a single GTX 760 won't suffice and I kinda fear the microstutters.
And in general, I already spent too much on this pc (1400€/1900$) because I failed with the PC-reseller. Thought it was a good deal :P (I've got WLan + Blu Ray though..)
EDIT: Mac Mini
bo3b said:Since you are frame-rate sensitive, I'm pretty sure that you will not be happy with a single 760 for 3D, but your plan to try it first is sound.
The GTX 760 usually has DVI connectors which are far better than VGA for monitor connection, why do you feel you would use VGA?
What Mac are you using? In general Macs tend to not emphasize CPU, and in 3D CPU can be more important than better GPUs. The only Mac I know of that is expandable is the old Mac Pro, and the CPU on that will be a bottleneck for 3D, especially in games like BF3.
Here is a list of games that have been fixed with HelixMods. They tend to be older games because those are possible to fix, at present no DX11 games are possible to fix, with the only exception being Bioshock Infinite.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant to say "I don't use 3D on a mac, and I want to connect the monitor to the mac with VGA/DVI". I will most probably use HDMI to connect the monitor with my GTX 760. Unless my 760 hasnt got a HDMI connector, although I'm pretty sure about that.
And at the moment, I'm kinda sad about it but I guess you're right, a single GTX 760 won't suffice and I kinda fear the microstutters.
And in general, I already spent too much on this pc (1400€/1900$) because I failed with the PC-reseller. Thought it was a good deal :P (I've got WLan + Blu Ray though..)
I currently own a GTX 760 2GB, and I'm planning on buying a 3D Vision Monitor.
Now 1. When I buy a 2nd GTX 760 will they be able to render seperately the frames for my left and right eye? 2. How well would a single GTX 760 perform with 3D Vision? (On Current-Next Gen games like Titanfall Assassin's Creed 4) vs two GTX 760 in SLI? Is there still that microstuttering everyone's complaining about?
Thanks!
Whatever the settings 3D Vison forces vsync.
There is very good scaling with SLI almost double the performance
In 2D the scaling is about 50-70% depending on game.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
So you would recommend the second GTX 760? How about microstutters?
It ended up fairly costly as my motherboard stopped working.
Had to replace motherboard as well as CPU.
The new motherboard has a nice spacing between the size 2 Graphics cards.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
Can you see any microstutters?
And I think my i7 4770k and Asus Gryphon Z87 should handle it :)
Only way to turn of VSYNC is to turn off 3D in the control panel which I tend to forget when playing 2D. I find VSYNC on to be less of a problem at refreshrate >=120hz on the monitor.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
Titanfall actually performs noticeably worse with two cards (in 2d and 3d), however this is something Respawn and nVidia are currently working on fixing.
A lot of the time though, SLI gives you much better performance, and microstuttering isn't an issue.
As for 3d in the titles you've mentioned:
AC4 uses a depth buffer method of 3d. It's not ideal, in that it doesn't actually render the frame twice - it renders once and works out an approximation of what the second frame should look like. This results in a blurry "halo" effect around objects closer to your face. It's a big improvement over 2d, but it's not ideal. There are people (Flugan is one of them) looking into "fixing" AC4 to run in proper 3d (which would look incredible), but it's not a fast process, and there are no guarantees.
As for Titanfall, 3d is about 70% of what it needs to be. 3d works, and looks good...mostly. Things that are in the distance (beyond the playable area) render closer than they should be. It's visually confusing, but as most of your attention is on the battlefield and you're not gazing off too much, it's not a major issue. The more significant issue is the fact that the HUD (including crosshair) is rendered at "screen depth". Try holding your finger in front of your nose and looking at an object behind it. See how it splits in two? The crosshair does that, making it functionally useless. nVidia do have a "laser sight" that appears at the correct depth, but you have to learn to tune out the distracting hud elements to play. It's annoying, but playable (and gives a great sense of scale, particularly when in a titan).
So while I'd still encourage you to make the leap to 3d and get a second card (as it really is amazing), just temper your expectations a little, as it's rarely a trouble-free experience.
Also, it's well worth spending time on these forums. You'll learn all the tricks to get games working their best.
Oh, what does that mean? Won't I be able to SLI?
Wow, thanks for the long text. About the microstuttering, I've heard that it's very person-dependent, and I would call my self very high-sensitive about frame rates.
So you like 3D? And where do I find the 3D-Vision Ready gamelist?
I think I'm gonna do like this:
1. Buy a 3D Monitor (hopefully with give-back guarantee)
2. If I like how my single GTX 760 performs I'll stay with it, if I don't like it I'll buy another GTX 760 with give-back guarantee, and I'll try them to run in SLI, and if I expierence any microstutters I will give the monitor + 2nd GTX 760 back.
Sounds like a good plan? :D
Thanks for your responses!
Also, this is your new best friend. There's a great group of people who fix broken games in 3d (though DX11 is proving to be a different beast altogether and fixes are in their infancy)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
As for the microstuttering, I'd imagine it's unlikely to be as noticeable in 3d, because each card renders one "eye", as opposed to the other ways in which SLI works.
Thank you! There doesn't seem to be any information about AC4 though?
And BTW, Battlefield 4 hasn't got 3D Vision support right?
Oh, and what monitor do you use? And do you know if the Asus VG278H is compatible with a mac?
Thanks!
Battlefield 4 I'm not sure about, but I don't think it works. If it does, it'll be with the depth buffer 3d, which isn't as good (and this method doesn't benefit as much from SLI cards, it seems)
I use an Asys VG278H, no idea if it works on a mac.
As it has a VGA input, shouldn't it be able to just run "normally" as a monitor? I wouldn't be using 3D Stuff on the mac, as there isn't something like that, but I mean what display is one, that couldn't work simply as a display?
The GTX 760 usually has DVI connectors which are far better than VGA for monitor connection, why do you feel you would use VGA?
What Mac are you using? In general Macs tend to not emphasize CPU, and in 3D CPU can be more important than better GPUs. The only Mac I know of that is expandable is the old Mac Pro, and the CPU on that will be a bottleneck for 3D, especially in games like BF3.
Here is a list of games that have been fixed with HelixMods. They tend to be older games because those are possible to fix, at present no DX11 games are possible to fix, with the only exception being Bioshock Infinite.
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2013/07/game-list-full.html
Here is a list of games that were voted as being the best experience by people on the forum:
http://lists.bo3b.net/s3d/
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I meant to say "I don't use 3D on a mac, and I want to connect the monitor to the mac with VGA/DVI". I will most probably use HDMI to connect the monitor with my GTX 760. Unless my 760 hasnt got a HDMI connector, although I'm pretty sure about that.
And at the moment, I'm kinda sad about it but I guess you're right, a single GTX 760 won't suffice and I kinda fear the microstutters.
And in general, I already spent too much on this pc (1400€/1900$) because I failed with the PC-reseller. Thought it was a good deal :P (I've got WLan + Blu Ray though..)
EDIT: Mac Mini