Nvidia, tell me, are you going to let 3d Vision die?
2 / 4
There are a lot of reasons why 3D Vision flopped the way it did, I think. It's too expensive (for the forseeable future) to be of interest for the "average" customer. Thus game developers don't have an economic reason to invest into making their games 3DV-ready. That's why probably Nvidia would have had to invest more, on all fronts.
While proper 3D hardware setups are too expensive for the masses, I wonder why so many hardware enthusiasts out there don't use 3D Vision. These types always want the best graphics cards and monitors, but many of them simply seem totally clueless about the HUGE advance in visuals 3D Vision can provide - compared to "just" higher resolution or some fancy graphical (2D) effect.
Who is to blame for that? In part Nvidia, I believe, but also all the people in gaming media who are NOT independantly thinking journalists and who mostly aren't tech savvy enough to investigate something like 3D Vision on their own.
So 3D Vision flopped. But does this justify Nvidia's neglect of its own tech? I don't think so. They must know that thousands of people around the planet are enthusiastic about 3D Vision and have bought into expensive Nvidia graphics cards, 3D Vision glasses and licensed monitors. And because of this they should feel obliged to at least keep supporting it on "low level".
That should include support for modding (the most popular games) as is done by some fine people around here - I mean, is it really too much to ask for that Nvidia pays 1 or 2 people doing this? The cost of such minimum activities would really be peanuts in comparison to what they invest in otherwise.
And then there is the matter of publishing new drivers that break community patches. In my opinion it's hard to defend something like that like some people on this board constantly do...
There are a lot of reasons why 3D Vision flopped the way it did, I think. It's too expensive (for the forseeable future) to be of interest for the "average" customer. Thus game developers don't have an economic reason to invest into making their games 3DV-ready. That's why probably Nvidia would have had to invest more, on all fronts.
While proper 3D hardware setups are too expensive for the masses, I wonder why so many hardware enthusiasts out there don't use 3D Vision. These types always want the best graphics cards and monitors, but many of them simply seem totally clueless about the HUGE advance in visuals 3D Vision can provide - compared to "just" higher resolution or some fancy graphical (2D) effect.
Who is to blame for that? In part Nvidia, I believe, but also all the people in gaming media who are NOT independantly thinking journalists and who mostly aren't tech savvy enough to investigate something like 3D Vision on their own.
So 3D Vision flopped. But does this justify Nvidia's neglect of its own tech? I don't think so. They must know that thousands of people around the planet are enthusiastic about 3D Vision and have bought into expensive Nvidia graphics cards, 3D Vision glasses and licensed monitors. And because of this they should feel obliged to at least keep supporting it on "low level".
That should include support for modding (the most popular games) as is done by some fine people around here - I mean, is it really too much to ask for that Nvidia pays 1 or 2 people doing this? The cost of such minimum activities would really be peanuts in comparison to what they invest in otherwise.
And then there is the matter of publishing new drivers that break community patches. In my opinion it's hard to defend something like that like some people on this board constantly do...
3D is by far too expensive for what it offers, in terms of money, confort, time, etc.
Another big factor (that usually nobody speak about): psicologically you get a big problem..., you get obsesed with playing 3D once you have experienced it, and you now do not enjoy games playing 2D. That is not something good as some people claim, that is something that really happens in our brain, and that would be acceptable if every game were supported to be played decently with 3D, but it does not happen at all, and the result is that you really do not enjoy circunstances that without this technology you would. So the result is that you get more frustration than good experiences (at least in my case).
I still own a Nvidia GTX 660 TI and samsung 2233RZ monitor + Acer H5360 pj (I barely use the pj), and the reason I have not bought better hardware is not just only for the money, but for the sensation that it is not fair/worthy to pay a lot more for something "a bit" better but just the same, and in exchange obtain poorer support as the time advance, and not to be sure if tomorrow my hardware is going to be compatible (it happened before something similar, a few years ago).
No ISP support, no G-sync, no profiles for new games, no more than 60hz, ghosting, hardware demanding, darknes of the scene, wearing weird glasses, a lot of money to spend, a company that do not deserve a single euro acording to the support, the insecurity of what is going to happen tomorrow in terms of support of your hardware, headache, flickering images..., what else?, ah, of course, it is not very usefull to play online.
Do not missunderstand me, this is not only empty pesimistic criticism, I am the first who wants a good 3D experience, but it does not happen. This text is just an alert about things that are not going well. If Nvidia has any kind of interest in continue developing this tech, it has to be sense, and must solve a lot of problems it has. Otherwise this tech is going to remain to really lovers of 3D who don't care about paying a lot of money (because the have) to play at any cost something in 3D, even if it is only a couple of titles.
I agree that once you have experienced playing 3D games you want always play games that way. That is a real problem in this situation, not somthing telling us that the tech is impresive. That is a real problem because you, in esence, what want to do is to play a game, and every details (graphics, etc) surrounding the game are secondary things. When I was 12 years old I imagined the perfect game..., it was not 3D, and it was not needed to be 3D. "It is happier not who own more, but who needs less". If I had the opportunity to go back in time and choose whether to know about this tech or not, I would choose NOT, that is something I have clear in my mind.
Good potential tech + bad implementation = expensive frustration
3D is by far too expensive for what it offers, in terms of money, confort, time, etc.
Another big factor (that usually nobody speak about): psicologically you get a big problem..., you get obsesed with playing 3D once you have experienced it, and you now do not enjoy games playing 2D. That is not something good as some people claim, that is something that really happens in our brain, and that would be acceptable if every game were supported to be played decently with 3D, but it does not happen at all, and the result is that you really do not enjoy circunstances that without this technology you would. So the result is that you get more frustration than good experiences (at least in my case).
I still own a Nvidia GTX 660 TI and samsung 2233RZ monitor + Acer H5360 pj (I barely use the pj), and the reason I have not bought better hardware is not just only for the money, but for the sensation that it is not fair/worthy to pay a lot more for something "a bit" better but just the same, and in exchange obtain poorer support as the time advance, and not to be sure if tomorrow my hardware is going to be compatible (it happened before something similar, a few years ago).
No ISP support, no G-sync, no profiles for new games, no more than 60hz, ghosting, hardware demanding, darknes of the scene, wearing weird glasses, a lot of money to spend, a company that do not deserve a single euro acording to the support, the insecurity of what is going to happen tomorrow in terms of support of your hardware, headache, flickering images..., what else?, ah, of course, it is not very usefull to play online.
Do not missunderstand me, this is not only empty pesimistic criticism, I am the first who wants a good 3D experience, but it does not happen. This text is just an alert about things that are not going well. If Nvidia has any kind of interest in continue developing this tech, it has to be sense, and must solve a lot of problems it has. Otherwise this tech is going to remain to really lovers of 3D who don't care about paying a lot of money (because the have) to play at any cost something in 3D, even if it is only a couple of titles.
I agree that once you have experienced playing 3D games you want always play games that way. That is a real problem in this situation, not somthing telling us that the tech is impresive. That is a real problem because you, in esence, what want to do is to play a game, and every details (graphics, etc) surrounding the game are secondary things. When I was 12 years old I imagined the perfect game..., it was not 3D, and it was not needed to be 3D. "It is happier not who own more, but who needs less". If I had the opportunity to go back in time and choose whether to know about this tech or not, I would choose NOT, that is something I have clear in my mind.
Good potential tech + bad implementation = expensive frustration
so according to b4thman, if something is better -- don't try it -- keep using the lesser thing -- because when you use the better thing you will never want to go back. So always use inferior products!!
thanks, b4thman! I will take this advice to heart!
.... LOL
so according to b4thman, if something is better -- don't try it -- keep using the lesser thing -- because when you use the better thing you will never want to go back. So always use inferior products!!
thanks, b4thman! I will take this advice to heart!
[quote="ibnlanizi"]so according to b4thman, if something is better -- don't try it -- keep using the lesser thing -- because when you use the better thing you will never want to go back. So always use inferior products!!
thanks, b4thman! I will take this advice to heart!
.... LOL[/quote]
ROFL! This really made my day:)) I literally giggled in the office reading this :))) hahahaha
ibnlanizi said:so according to b4thman, if something is better -- don't try it -- keep using the lesser thing -- because when you use the better thing you will never want to go back. So always use inferior products!!
thanks, b4thman! I will take this advice to heart!
.... LOL
ROFL! This really made my day:)) I literally giggled in the office reading this :))) hahahaha
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
If say true... Guys really.. Once getting in 3D gaming there is a real problem to get back to 2D gaming =).
Sometimes i really envy people who just buy that shooter, just install it and just play it.. while i wait when 3D support is implemented >_<. And if not i just don't buy this shooter, because i just can't play some type of games in 2D at all. And yes i prefer to skip the game at all instead of "wasting" time playing it 2D. In some way it is a little problem =)
If say true... Guys really.. Once getting in 3D gaming there is a real problem to get back to 2D gaming =).
Sometimes i really envy people who just buy that shooter, just install it and just play it.. while i wait when 3D support is implemented >_<. And if not i just don't buy this shooter, because i just can't play some type of games in 2D at all. And yes i prefer to skip the game at all instead of "wasting" time playing it 2D. In some way it is a little problem =)
ROOOOFL, basicaly what b4thman said is, he is so addicted to 3D gaming, he doesn't want to play 2D anymore at all. Thats why he would like to go back in time so he could enjoy 2D games again. So he might still be at the right place here in the forum!!!
ROOOOFL, basicaly what b4thman said is, he is so addicted to 3D gaming, he doesn't want to play 2D anymore at all. Thats why he would like to go back in time so he could enjoy 2D games again. So he might still be at the right place here in the forum!!!
ASUS X99-A, i7-5960X, GTX980, 16GB DDR4 2666MHz Corsair, Plextor M.2 SSD 512GB, 3D Vision 2
Well, actually I have been spending more time playing 2D than 3D games in the last year, so my complain is that 3D is not enough supported to convince me to play with it, and not enough to convince me to invest a big amount of money in a powerfull Nvidia videocard and a expensive monitor compatible with Nvidia 3D Vision.
Today there are other options in the market if you decide to buy PC hardware, and is a bit risky to choose Nvidia's hardware oriented to play 3D, because the list of cons I described in the previous post (and surelly others).
If you consider that you play more 2D, and provided that Nvidia 3D Vision's future life is a bit controversial, maybe is better to think about a good system oriented to play 2D, I mean, to think about the best ISP/incoming OLED panel with freesync or G-sync support, the best videocard in terms of quality/price, etc. Maybe that way you have more fun and your head suffer less pain, and maybe you have less trouble playing games, you can play online in better conditions, you can play in the living room without feeling a bug without ants, and maybe (only maybe) you can recover your forgotten passion for videogames, instead of fighting against graphics options and .ini files everytime you decide to play a stuttering game.
Well, actually I have been spending more time playing 2D than 3D games in the last year, so my complain is that 3D is not enough supported to convince me to play with it, and not enough to convince me to invest a big amount of money in a powerfull Nvidia videocard and a expensive monitor compatible with Nvidia 3D Vision.
Today there are other options in the market if you decide to buy PC hardware, and is a bit risky to choose Nvidia's hardware oriented to play 3D, because the list of cons I described in the previous post (and surelly others).
If you consider that you play more 2D, and provided that Nvidia 3D Vision's future life is a bit controversial, maybe is better to think about a good system oriented to play 2D, I mean, to think about the best ISP/incoming OLED panel with freesync or G-sync support, the best videocard in terms of quality/price, etc. Maybe that way you have more fun and your head suffer less pain, and maybe you have less trouble playing games, you can play online in better conditions, you can play in the living room without feeling a bug without ants, and maybe (only maybe) you can recover your forgotten passion for videogames, instead of fighting against graphics options and .ini files everytime you decide to play a stuttering game.
[quote="b4thman"]Well, actually I have been spending more time playing 2D than 3D games in the last year[/quote]
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ all patch are here
i played alien iso, mordor, dragon age, dying light, La noire in 3d dsr 4k amazing, alan wake. all thanks to helix team
can't play in 2d =) when I have this ->
[img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/64519/[/img]
Why helix team don't do a partnership with nvidia or put advertising on your http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ to make money ? Imagine you are only in the world to fix 3d games =)
you will not tell me there is no globally market. I saw lot of people who have 3d kit and dont know you on forums. They are lost and say why 3d doesn't works!
Why helix team don't do a partnership with nvidia or put advertising on your http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ to make money ? Imagine you are only in the world to fix 3d games =)
you will not tell me there is no globally market. I saw lot of people who have 3d kit and dont know you on forums. They are lost and say why 3d doesn't works!
[quote="xXBeeshopXx"]Why helix team don't do a partnership with nvidia or put advertising on your http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ to make money ? Imagine you are only in the world to fix 3d games =)
you will not tell me there is no globally market. I saw lot of people who have 3d kit and dont know you on forums. They are lost and say why 3d doesn't works![/quote]
Because all the fixes are open sourced :) and free:) We do this out of passion, (maybe bored of playing the games hahaha) or for other reasons like "We like the challenge":)
Last I checked we are opened to partnership with nvidia, but we didn't get any news/information/contact from them:) sooo.... :)
xXBeeshopXx said:Why helix team don't do a partnership with nvidia or put advertising on your http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ to make money ? Imagine you are only in the world to fix 3d games =)
you will not tell me there is no globally market. I saw lot of people who have 3d kit and dont know you on forums. They are lost and say why 3d doesn't works!
Because all the fixes are open sourced :) and free:) We do this out of passion, (maybe bored of playing the games hahaha) or for other reasons like "We like the challenge":)
Last I checked we are opened to partnership with nvidia, but we didn't get any news/information/contact from them:) sooo.... :)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Arrgghh! I had a whole post almost done in response to bo3b last night and I bluescreened before posting.
I agree with everything in his post and all the following posts, Zappologist took the words right out of my mouth. What a great community 3D Vision users have created. I kick myself for not getting in sooner. I had to go out and get 2 more monitors after falling in love with 3D and go 3D Surround.
Between games with native support, Helix mods (and other modders) and CM, I have been able to play almost all of my games in 3D and only play without it if I absolutely have to.
Can't we get rough numbers through Steam on how many 3D Vision users are out there? I can't believe they don't know our exact hw profiles and even how much time we spend in 3D. Nvidia must have sales figures at least... I feel the community is also larger than people think.
Arrgghh! I had a whole post almost done in response to bo3b last night and I bluescreened before posting.
I agree with everything in his post and all the following posts, Zappologist took the words right out of my mouth. What a great community 3D Vision users have created. I kick myself for not getting in sooner. I had to go out and get 2 more monitors after falling in love with 3D and go 3D Surround.
Between games with native support, Helix mods (and other modders) and CM, I have been able to play almost all of my games in 3D and only play without it if I absolutely have to.
Can't we get rough numbers through Steam on how many 3D Vision users are out there? I can't believe they don't know our exact hw profiles and even how much time we spend in 3D. Nvidia must have sales figures at least... I feel the community is also larger than people think.
@[u]b4thman[/u]: I'm curious why you even bother with PC gaming at all? If your goal is to have a simple, worry free gaming session, then PC Gaming itself is just a pit of despair. Look at Witcher3 on PC for evidence #1 of how life is harder for PC gamers. If you want ease of use, kick back on the couch, you really should skip all this and just use a PS4.
PC Gaming is all about the freedom to do what we like, and not be locked in by corporate masters. With that freedom comes a lot of problems and variants that can be a huge time sink. I prefer freedom and will pay the cost in complexity and glitches. It's not for everyone though.
@[u]D-Man11, Remo99[/u]: I can answer at least part of that question. The community of 3D gamers is small, really, really small. When I spoke with NVidia people about market size, they also agreed that the overall market of [i]active [/i]3D Vision users is approximately 500,000 people. Could be twice or 3 times that big, could also be half that big, but somewhere in that range is going to pretty right.
Now compare that number to [i]active [/i]PC Gamers of maybe 50,000,000. NVidia sells something like 35M cards a [i]year[/i], AMD something like 20M a [i]year[/i]. That's every year. Can we agree that the absolute vast majority of those people are buying them for gaming? Steam has 75M accounts, with 8M on at any given time. So, somewhere in the 50M to 100M range is going to be close. Using engineering type estimates, it's clearly not 5M, and it's clearly not 500M.
Consoles are an even bigger market of course, because of their slow upgrade cycle. Last gen Xbox360 and PS3 sold something like 80M apiece. You can see why the PC market has become interesting to game developers again, as it's easily the same size as consoles, albeit a lot more complicated development. Current gen consoles are off to a 15M a year sales start, which doesn't really look that good relative to PC sales.
These are just ballpark numbers, I'm looking for engineering approximations, not absolute accuracy.
So in terms of market, we as 3D enthusiasts are maybe 1% if you want to be generous, 0.25% if you don't.
HelixModBlog itself consistently gets around 2500 hits per day. 73,000 for last month, with a slight uptrend. Right now, Dishonored, Dragon Age:Inquisition, and Skryim are the top hits.
For specific game page hits, I use the approximation that anyone going to that specific page wants the fix. There will be some random hits, and comments and the like, but I think it's unlikely that people go to each page just to look at the pictures.
Lifetime hits for the top few are: Skyrim:55K, Borderlands2:27K, DragonAge:15K, FarCry3:12K, and an interesting one of NARUTO SHIPPUDEN Ultimate Ninja STORM 3 Full Burst:12K.
Those numbers can easily be off by 2x, because the top level numbers there would not include someone starting with GameList and working down to the game. If I look at the specific page hits, Having looked through the numbers a bit, I can say that popular games get something like 20K lifetime hits, and less popular games get around 1K lifetime hits. Some examples: Skyrim:100K, FC3:28K, DS3:21K, AC4:12K, AC3:4K, Outlast:10K, Fear2:2K, DG1:1K.
Using those as a rough proxy for activity of users, that suggests the active HelixModBlog users at somewhere around 50K, maybe as high as 100K. Engineering estimate: clearly not 1M, not 10K.
All of that does suggest that maybe there are active 3D users who don't know of HelixMod, although that seems hard to believe. But unless you actively search for games, or modding, or ways to improve it, you won't find HelixMod. That's part of the gap that the dev team at NVidia would like to address, so we'll see if it can be improved. They have said they'd like to put links on 3DVisionLive, but you know, NVidia. I work hard at keeping my natural cynicism at mere skepticism, but don't hold your breath.
I'm not giving you all these numbers to make a depressing argument, I still think things are actually pretty good. As an engineer, I really want to have some fairly solid facts, not just marketing or business fluff. We have maybe 50K active 3D Vision users, who are wildly enjoying their games. That's nothing to sneeze at. But, you can see why there is no business case to be made. Even the uptick in GPU sales and monitors isn't enough to turn the dial.
Hope this helps. And by all means, if you think my estimates are faulty, show me.
@b4thman: I'm curious why you even bother with PC gaming at all? If your goal is to have a simple, worry free gaming session, then PC Gaming itself is just a pit of despair. Look at Witcher3 on PC for evidence #1 of how life is harder for PC gamers. If you want ease of use, kick back on the couch, you really should skip all this and just use a PS4.
PC Gaming is all about the freedom to do what we like, and not be locked in by corporate masters. With that freedom comes a lot of problems and variants that can be a huge time sink. I prefer freedom and will pay the cost in complexity and glitches. It's not for everyone though.
@D-Man11, Remo99: I can answer at least part of that question. The community of 3D gamers is small, really, really small. When I spoke with NVidia people about market size, they also agreed that the overall market of active 3D Vision users is approximately 500,000 people. Could be twice or 3 times that big, could also be half that big, but somewhere in that range is going to pretty right.
Now compare that number to active PC Gamers of maybe 50,000,000. NVidia sells something like 35M cards a year, AMD something like 20M a year. That's every year. Can we agree that the absolute vast majority of those people are buying them for gaming? Steam has 75M accounts, with 8M on at any given time. So, somewhere in the 50M to 100M range is going to be close. Using engineering type estimates, it's clearly not 5M, and it's clearly not 500M.
Consoles are an even bigger market of course, because of their slow upgrade cycle. Last gen Xbox360 and PS3 sold something like 80M apiece. You can see why the PC market has become interesting to game developers again, as it's easily the same size as consoles, albeit a lot more complicated development. Current gen consoles are off to a 15M a year sales start, which doesn't really look that good relative to PC sales.
These are just ballpark numbers, I'm looking for engineering approximations, not absolute accuracy.
So in terms of market, we as 3D enthusiasts are maybe 1% if you want to be generous, 0.25% if you don't.
HelixModBlog itself consistently gets around 2500 hits per day. 73,000 for last month, with a slight uptrend. Right now, Dishonored, Dragon Age:Inquisition, and Skryim are the top hits.
For specific game page hits, I use the approximation that anyone going to that specific page wants the fix. There will be some random hits, and comments and the like, but I think it's unlikely that people go to each page just to look at the pictures.
Lifetime hits for the top few are: Skyrim:55K, Borderlands2:27K, DragonAge:15K, FarCry3:12K, and an interesting one of NARUTO SHIPPUDEN Ultimate Ninja STORM 3 Full Burst:12K.
Those numbers can easily be off by 2x, because the top level numbers there would not include someone starting with GameList and working down to the game. If I look at the specific page hits, Having looked through the numbers a bit, I can say that popular games get something like 20K lifetime hits, and less popular games get around 1K lifetime hits. Some examples: Skyrim:100K, FC3:28K, DS3:21K, AC4:12K, AC3:4K, Outlast:10K, Fear2:2K, DG1:1K.
Using those as a rough proxy for activity of users, that suggests the active HelixModBlog users at somewhere around 50K, maybe as high as 100K. Engineering estimate: clearly not 1M, not 10K.
All of that does suggest that maybe there are active 3D users who don't know of HelixMod, although that seems hard to believe. But unless you actively search for games, or modding, or ways to improve it, you won't find HelixMod. That's part of the gap that the dev team at NVidia would like to address, so we'll see if it can be improved. They have said they'd like to put links on 3DVisionLive, but you know, NVidia. I work hard at keeping my natural cynicism at mere skepticism, but don't hold your breath.
I'm not giving you all these numbers to make a depressing argument, I still think things are actually pretty good. As an engineer, I really want to have some fairly solid facts, not just marketing or business fluff. We have maybe 50K active 3D Vision users, who are wildly enjoying their games. That's nothing to sneeze at. But, you can see why there is no business case to be made. Even the uptick in GPU sales and monitors isn't enough to turn the dial.
Hope this helps. And by all means, if you think my estimates are faulty, show me.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
While proper 3D hardware setups are too expensive for the masses, I wonder why so many hardware enthusiasts out there don't use 3D Vision. These types always want the best graphics cards and monitors, but many of them simply seem totally clueless about the HUGE advance in visuals 3D Vision can provide - compared to "just" higher resolution or some fancy graphical (2D) effect.
Who is to blame for that? In part Nvidia, I believe, but also all the people in gaming media who are NOT independantly thinking journalists and who mostly aren't tech savvy enough to investigate something like 3D Vision on their own.
So 3D Vision flopped. But does this justify Nvidia's neglect of its own tech? I don't think so. They must know that thousands of people around the planet are enthusiastic about 3D Vision and have bought into expensive Nvidia graphics cards, 3D Vision glasses and licensed monitors. And because of this they should feel obliged to at least keep supporting it on "low level".
That should include support for modding (the most popular games) as is done by some fine people around here - I mean, is it really too much to ask for that Nvidia pays 1 or 2 people doing this? The cost of such minimum activities would really be peanuts in comparison to what they invest in otherwise.
And then there is the matter of publishing new drivers that break community patches. In my opinion it's hard to defend something like that like some people on this board constantly do...
Graphics Card: GTX 980 Ti; Monitor: Acer VG274H
OS: Windows 8.1
Another big factor (that usually nobody speak about): psicologically you get a big problem..., you get obsesed with playing 3D once you have experienced it, and you now do not enjoy games playing 2D. That is not something good as some people claim, that is something that really happens in our brain, and that would be acceptable if every game were supported to be played decently with 3D, but it does not happen at all, and the result is that you really do not enjoy circunstances that without this technology you would. So the result is that you get more frustration than good experiences (at least in my case).
I still own a Nvidia GTX 660 TI and samsung 2233RZ monitor + Acer H5360 pj (I barely use the pj), and the reason I have not bought better hardware is not just only for the money, but for the sensation that it is not fair/worthy to pay a lot more for something "a bit" better but just the same, and in exchange obtain poorer support as the time advance, and not to be sure if tomorrow my hardware is going to be compatible (it happened before something similar, a few years ago).
No ISP support, no G-sync, no profiles for new games, no more than 60hz, ghosting, hardware demanding, darknes of the scene, wearing weird glasses, a lot of money to spend, a company that do not deserve a single euro acording to the support, the insecurity of what is going to happen tomorrow in terms of support of your hardware, headache, flickering images..., what else?, ah, of course, it is not very usefull to play online.
Do not missunderstand me, this is not only empty pesimistic criticism, I am the first who wants a good 3D experience, but it does not happen. This text is just an alert about things that are not going well. If Nvidia has any kind of interest in continue developing this tech, it has to be sense, and must solve a lot of problems it has. Otherwise this tech is going to remain to really lovers of 3D who don't care about paying a lot of money (because the have) to play at any cost something in 3D, even if it is only a couple of titles.
I agree that once you have experienced playing 3D games you want always play games that way. That is a real problem in this situation, not somthing telling us that the tech is impresive. That is a real problem because you, in esence, what want to do is to play a game, and every details (graphics, etc) surrounding the game are secondary things. When I was 12 years old I imagined the perfect game..., it was not 3D, and it was not needed to be 3D. "It is happier not who own more, but who needs less". If I had the opportunity to go back in time and choose whether to know about this tech or not, I would choose NOT, that is something I have clear in my mind.
Good potential tech + bad implementation = expensive frustration
- Windows 7 64bits (SSD OCZ-Vertez2 128Gb)
- "ASUS P6X58D-E" motherboard
- "MSI GTX 660 TI"
- "Intel Xeon X5670" @4000MHz CPU (20.0[12-25]x200MHz)
- RAM 16 Gb DDR3 1600
- "Dell S2716DG" monitor (2560x1440 @144Hz)
- "Corsair Carbide 600C" case
- Labrador dog (cinnamon edition)
thanks, b4thman! I will take this advice to heart!
.... LOL
ROFL! This really made my day:)) I literally giggled in the office reading this :))) hahahaha
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
this part of the forum is for 3D vision not for 3D haters.
Joker78 .... dude change nickname :p
Intel i7 8086K
Gigabyte GTX 1080Ti Aorus Extreme
DDR4 2x8gb 3200mhz Cl14
TV LG OLED65E6V
Windows 10 64bits
But in no way a valid life philosophy.
Sometimes i really envy people who just buy that shooter, just install it and just play it.. while i wait when 3D support is implemented >_<. And if not i just don't buy this shooter, because i just can't play some type of games in 2D at all. And yes i prefer to skip the game at all instead of "wasting" time playing it 2D. In some way it is a little problem =)
ASUS X99-A, i7-5960X, GTX980, 16GB DDR4 2666MHz Corsair, Plextor M.2 SSD 512GB, 3D Vision 2
Today there are other options in the market if you decide to buy PC hardware, and is a bit risky to choose Nvidia's hardware oriented to play 3D, because the list of cons I described in the previous post (and surelly others).
If you consider that you play more 2D, and provided that Nvidia 3D Vision's future life is a bit controversial, maybe is better to think about a good system oriented to play 2D, I mean, to think about the best ISP/incoming OLED panel with freesync or G-sync support, the best videocard in terms of quality/price, etc. Maybe that way you have more fun and your head suffer less pain, and maybe you have less trouble playing games, you can play online in better conditions, you can play in the living room without feeling a bug without ants, and maybe (only maybe) you can recover your forgotten passion for videogames, instead of fighting against graphics options and .ini files everytime you decide to play a stuttering game.
- Windows 7 64bits (SSD OCZ-Vertez2 128Gb)
- "ASUS P6X58D-E" motherboard
- "MSI GTX 660 TI"
- "Intel Xeon X5670" @4000MHz CPU (20.0[12-25]x200MHz)
- RAM 16 Gb DDR3 1600
- "Dell S2716DG" monitor (2560x1440 @144Hz)
- "Corsair Carbide 600C" case
- Labrador dog (cinnamon edition)
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ all patch are here
i played alien iso, mordor, dragon age, dying light, La noire in 3d dsr 4k amazing, alan wake. all thanks to helix team
can't play in 2d =) when I have this ->
you will not tell me there is no globally market. I saw lot of people who have 3d kit and dont know you on forums. They are lost and say why 3d doesn't works!
Because all the fixes are open sourced :) and free:) We do this out of passion, (maybe bored of playing the games hahaha) or for other reasons like "We like the challenge":)
Last I checked we are opened to partnership with nvidia, but we didn't get any news/information/contact from them:) sooo.... :)
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
I agree with everything in his post and all the following posts, Zappologist took the words right out of my mouth. What a great community 3D Vision users have created. I kick myself for not getting in sooner. I had to go out and get 2 more monitors after falling in love with 3D and go 3D Surround.
Between games with native support, Helix mods (and other modders) and CM, I have been able to play almost all of my games in 3D and only play without it if I absolutely have to.
Can't we get rough numbers through Steam on how many 3D Vision users are out there? I can't believe they don't know our exact hw profiles and even how much time we spend in 3D. Nvidia must have sales figures at least... I feel the community is also larger than people think.
PC Gaming is all about the freedom to do what we like, and not be locked in by corporate masters. With that freedom comes a lot of problems and variants that can be a huge time sink. I prefer freedom and will pay the cost in complexity and glitches. It's not for everyone though.
@D-Man11, Remo99: I can answer at least part of that question. The community of 3D gamers is small, really, really small. When I spoke with NVidia people about market size, they also agreed that the overall market of active 3D Vision users is approximately 500,000 people. Could be twice or 3 times that big, could also be half that big, but somewhere in that range is going to pretty right.
Now compare that number to active PC Gamers of maybe 50,000,000. NVidia sells something like 35M cards a year, AMD something like 20M a year. That's every year. Can we agree that the absolute vast majority of those people are buying them for gaming? Steam has 75M accounts, with 8M on at any given time. So, somewhere in the 50M to 100M range is going to be close. Using engineering type estimates, it's clearly not 5M, and it's clearly not 500M.
Consoles are an even bigger market of course, because of their slow upgrade cycle. Last gen Xbox360 and PS3 sold something like 80M apiece. You can see why the PC market has become interesting to game developers again, as it's easily the same size as consoles, albeit a lot more complicated development. Current gen consoles are off to a 15M a year sales start, which doesn't really look that good relative to PC sales.
These are just ballpark numbers, I'm looking for engineering approximations, not absolute accuracy.
So in terms of market, we as 3D enthusiasts are maybe 1% if you want to be generous, 0.25% if you don't.
HelixModBlog itself consistently gets around 2500 hits per day. 73,000 for last month, with a slight uptrend. Right now, Dishonored, Dragon Age:Inquisition, and Skryim are the top hits.
For specific game page hits, I use the approximation that anyone going to that specific page wants the fix. There will be some random hits, and comments and the like, but I think it's unlikely that people go to each page just to look at the pictures.
Lifetime hits for the top few are: Skyrim:55K, Borderlands2:27K, DragonAge:15K, FarCry3:12K, and an interesting one of NARUTO SHIPPUDEN Ultimate Ninja STORM 3 Full Burst:12K.
Those numbers can easily be off by 2x, because the top level numbers there would not include someone starting with GameList and working down to the game. If I look at the specific page hits, Having looked through the numbers a bit, I can say that popular games get something like 20K lifetime hits, and less popular games get around 1K lifetime hits. Some examples: Skyrim:100K, FC3:28K, DS3:21K, AC4:12K, AC3:4K, Outlast:10K, Fear2:2K, DG1:1K.
Using those as a rough proxy for activity of users, that suggests the active HelixModBlog users at somewhere around 50K, maybe as high as 100K. Engineering estimate: clearly not 1M, not 10K.
All of that does suggest that maybe there are active 3D users who don't know of HelixMod, although that seems hard to believe. But unless you actively search for games, or modding, or ways to improve it, you won't find HelixMod. That's part of the gap that the dev team at NVidia would like to address, so we'll see if it can be improved. They have said they'd like to put links on 3DVisionLive, but you know, NVidia. I work hard at keeping my natural cynicism at mere skepticism, but don't hold your breath.
I'm not giving you all these numbers to make a depressing argument, I still think things are actually pretty good. As an engineer, I really want to have some fairly solid facts, not just marketing or business fluff. We have maybe 50K active 3D Vision users, who are wildly enjoying their games. That's nothing to sneeze at. But, you can see why there is no business case to be made. Even the uptick in GPU sales and monitors isn't enough to turn the dial.
Hope this helps. And by all means, if you think my estimates are faulty, show me.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers