Geforce 3D Vision - old issues fixed? How do the 3D Vision glasses and a 120hz lcd compare to old so
I still own 3D glasses from the late 90s which I used with my old CRT display. However, I was never really satisfied with the results mainly because of two issues:
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
I still own 3D glasses from the late 90s which I used with my old CRT display. However, I was never really satisfied with the results mainly because of two issues:
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
[quote name='Nimrod' post='508427' date='Feb 20 2009, 03:31 PM']I still own 3D glasses from the late 90s which I used with my old CRT display. However, I was never really satisfied with the results mainly because of two issues:
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?[/quote]
Alrighty lol I learned something new trying to answer this lol
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and [url="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080501073111AASONY0"]heres why[/url].
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='508427' date='Feb 20 2009, 03:31 PM']I still own 3D glasses from the late 90s which I used with my old CRT display. However, I was never really satisfied with the results mainly because of two issues:
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
Alrighty lol I learned something new trying to answer this lol
[quote name='UnTaroAdun' post='508519' date='Feb 21 2009, 02:05 AM']Alrighty lol I learned something new trying to answer this lol
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and [url="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080501073111AASONY0"]heres why[/url].
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.[/quote]I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='508921' date='Feb 21 2009, 04:12 PM']I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.[/quote]
The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?
[quote name='Nimrod' post='508921' date='Feb 21 2009, 04:12 PM']I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?
[quote name='3d Gamer Ready' post='508924' date='Feb 21 2009, 11:21 PM']The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?[/quote]I am afraid this is not how it works. You have to count the number of images per eye per second. That number should be well above 60 for ergonomic viewing.
[quote name='3d Gamer Ready' post='508924' date='Feb 21 2009, 11:21 PM']The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?I am afraid this is not how it works. You have to count the number of images per eye per second. That number should be well above 60 for ergonomic viewing.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509045' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:36 AM']I am afraid this is not how it works. You have to count the number of images per eye per second. That number should be well above 60 for ergonomic viewing.[/quote]
You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509045' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:36 AM']I am afraid this is not how it works. You have to count the number of images per eye per second. That number should be well above 60 for ergonomic viewing.
You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.
GTX680 SLI
Asus Rampage/intel 990X
3 X Acer GD235Hz
NVIDIA FOCUS GROUP
Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509101' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:41 PM']You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.[/quote]Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509101' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:41 PM']You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509212' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:41 AM']Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.[/quote]
That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509212' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:41 AM']Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
GTX680 SLI
Asus Rampage/intel 990X
3 X Acer GD235Hz
NVIDIA FOCUS GROUP
Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509212' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:41 AM']Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.[/quote]
I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509212' date='Feb 22 2009, 10:41 AM']Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.
GTX680 SLI
Asus Rampage/intel 990X
3 X Acer GD235Hz
NVIDIA FOCUS GROUP
Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509491' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:59 PM']That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.[/quote]
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509494' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:09 PM']I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.[/quote]Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509491' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:59 PM']That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509494' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:09 PM']I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
One aspect of the original question I would like to see expanded on is the issue of ghosting.
I gamed in 3D for a long period of time on a Sony 24" monitor that I ran at 120hz. Flickering, at that refresh rate, was never a problem I perceived. Ghosting, however, especially in darker scenes, was a problem one just had to accept and get used to. You would see it most profondly in, let's say, a dark street with streetlights along the road. The "double-vision"/ghosting around the lights was quite pronounced.
Is there anyone who was a veteran CRT 3D'er who can compare the ghosting then and now?
One aspect of the original question I would like to see expanded on is the issue of ghosting.
I gamed in 3D for a long period of time on a Sony 24" monitor that I ran at 120hz. Flickering, at that refresh rate, was never a problem I perceived. Ghosting, however, especially in darker scenes, was a problem one just had to accept and get used to. You would see it most profondly in, let's say, a dark street with streetlights along the road. The "double-vision"/ghosting around the lights was quite pronounced.
Is there anyone who was a veteran CRT 3D'er who can compare the ghosting then and now?
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509533' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:10 PM']Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.[/quote]
[url="http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/"]http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/[/url] Andrew Woods has several papers on why CRT caused ghosting, one of the papers here describe the decay levels of the green phosphor not falling off fast enough so you got crosstalk. I would recommend reading all the papers here though if you like scientific information relating to stereo3d. I too suffered from headaches on CRT, even at high refresh rates.
You can also use this link to search for many stereo 3d research papers commissioned by the defense department - there were some very interesting papers in there as well.
[url="http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA390448"]http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA390448[/url] - here was one relating to sickness and stereoscopy.
[quote name='Nimrod' post='509533' date='Feb 23 2009, 02:10 PM']Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/ Andrew Woods has several papers on why CRT caused ghosting, one of the papers here describe the decay levels of the green phosphor not falling off fast enough so you got crosstalk. I would recommend reading all the papers here though if you like scientific information relating to stereo3d. I too suffered from headaches on CRT, even at high refresh rates.
You can also use this link to search for many stereo 3d research papers commissioned by the defense department - there were some very interesting papers in there as well.
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?[/quote]
Alrighty lol I learned something new trying to answer this lol
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and [url="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080501073111AASONY0"]heres why[/url].
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.
1. Flickering
60hz might be enough nowadays because LCDs do not flicker per se. But on CRTs 60hz was barely enough and caused headaches after looking at bright images for longer periods of time. A frequency of 75-85hz was advisable for optimal ergonomics. If a CRT worked at 120Hz and 3D glasses were used, this was aequivalent to only 60Hz as the glasses would make the image appear at this frequency per eye. Ever since the appearance of lcds the frequency was something you did not have to care about.
But now every review of the 3D Vision I read talks about flicker-free 60Hz visuals. How can that be? Do images really not flicker any more if I use shutter glasses and a 120hz lcd? Or are the reviewers simply insensitive to 60hz flicker?
2. Ghosting
When I used my old shutter glasses with games who had high contrast scenes, e.g. streetlights at night, I would see a ghost image of the light, since the image meant for the right eye was partly visible for my left eye, too. As far as I know this happened because the phosphor of the CRT screen had an afterglow, or, in other words, was still partly showing the image from one frame before. Since even fast LCDs are slower than CRTs I imagine this issue should have become worse, not better. Or do I misunderstand something here?
Is there anyone that can comment on these two issues? Maybe someone who used shutter glasses back then and already tested the neu NVidia solution?
Alrighty lol I learned something new trying to answer this lol
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and heres why.
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and [url="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080501073111AASONY0"]heres why[/url].
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.[/quote]I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
This isn't your exact answer but basicly
1. No the LCDs won't flicker
and heres why.
Also if you don't understand the question in the topic i posted ( I didn't at first :] )
It's Why is it when you film a CRT with a video camera that you get a flicker across the screen?
Same thing happens with T.V.s since their the same.I do not think that describes the same problem. CRTs flicker at 60hz even when you do not look at them through shutter glasses or another camera. This may not be instantly noticed by everyone, but it is visible when looking at bright images, like a Word or Excel document, and causes headaches for many people. This is because at 60hz an CRT just flashes the image 60 times a second, unlike a LCD which constantly shows an image, but is able to change its content 60 times a second at 60hz.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.[/quote]
The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?
Now with a LCD and shutter glasses at 120hz, each eye gets to see 60 images while the other 60 are blocked, which should result in the same experience as looking at a CRT at 60hz. The only thing I am usure of is whether it makes a difference that within the 1/60 of a second each frame is shown completely on an LCD, while on an CRT the frame is build up by the cathode ray.
Also, If you are looking at a CRT or LCD with shutter glasses, the frequencies of the glasses and the screen are synced, unlike the camera and the tv in your example. Therefore this specifically strong flickering does not occur.
The way it works is each eye gets 60 hz at the same time resulting in a total of 120 hz per second. When 1 hz is shown through one side of the glasses the other side is blocked creating the 3d. The WHOLE 120 HZ happens every second resulting in a flicker free experience. IT IS AMAZING. You get no headaches, no eye strain only a great experience. Keep in mind you need a monster GPU to render these images. Each second each eye opens and closes 60 times each that makes up the 120 hz. Make sense?
You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.
You don't understand, and are stating something cannot be the case in the face of all the people using it who know.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.
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Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.[/quote]Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
The flicker of CRTs is caused by the way CRTs need higher refresh rates to give the illusion of a static image. LCDs don't need that, as you note, the image is on constantly and capable of change 60 times per second. If a CRT displays a still image at 50Hz you see the image flashed on the screen 50X, 60X for 60Hz, 70X for 70Hz, etc.. It's like looking at a strobe light, until it gets fast enough that your eye can't detect the flashing. (around 75Hz for most people)
Flicker is not a problem with 3d Vision. The ghosting you mention sometimes is, depends on the game, what's being displayed in the game.Yet the flicker is caused by the glasses as shutter glasses block every second frame for each eye by turning non-transparent, resulting in 60 flashes of the image per eye per second if the lcd runs at 120Hz.
That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
That is what you, who have never used it, think without benefit of experience.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
GTX680 SLI
Asus Rampage/intel 990X
3 X Acer GD235Hz
NVIDIA FOCUS GROUP
Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.
I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.
GTX680 SLI
Asus Rampage/intel 990X
3 X Acer GD235Hz
NVIDIA FOCUS GROUP
Not employed by NVIDIA, nor do my views represent NVIDIA's in any way.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.[/quote]
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509494' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:09 PM']I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.[/quote]Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
Those of us who have been using it for months say it doesn't flicker. I remember all too well what the CRT version of this was like at even 140/70Hz- painful.
Whatever reason, 120/60hz on a LCD results in the same experience as 60Hz on a LCD- no eyestrain. If this was like CRT stereo, I wouldn't even use it because that gave me headaches pretty quickly.
[quote name='Brian_S' post='509494' date='Feb 23 2009, 01:09 PM']I wonder if the nature of the CRT display mechanics (the monitor flashing with with the shutter glasses switching off and on) causes more eyestrain? In any case, with the 120/60Hz it feels like a normal 60Hz on a LCD.Interesting and nice to hear, thx. Hopefully I will get a chance to test the system.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
I gamed in 3D for a long period of time on a Sony 24" monitor that I ran at 120hz. Flickering, at that refresh rate, was never a problem I perceived. Ghosting, however, especially in darker scenes, was a problem one just had to accept and get used to. You would see it most profondly in, let's say, a dark street with streetlights along the road. The "double-vision"/ghosting around the lights was quite pronounced.
Is there anyone who was a veteran CRT 3D'er who can compare the ghosting then and now?
Thanks!
I gamed in 3D for a long period of time on a Sony 24" monitor that I ran at 120hz. Flickering, at that refresh rate, was never a problem I perceived. Ghosting, however, especially in darker scenes, was a problem one just had to accept and get used to. You would see it most profondly in, let's say, a dark street with streetlights along the road. The "double-vision"/ghosting around the lights was quite pronounced.
Is there anyone who was a veteran CRT 3D'er who can compare the ghosting then and now?
Thanks!
i7-7700k. 1080ti GTX. 32 gig RAM. Windows 10. Soundblaster Titanium Creative 7.1 Surround Sound.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.[/quote]
[url="http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/"]http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/[/url] Andrew Woods has several papers on why CRT caused ghosting, one of the papers here describe the decay levels of the green phosphor not falling off fast enough so you got crosstalk. I would recommend reading all the papers here though if you like scientific information relating to stereo3d. I too suffered from headaches on CRT, even at high refresh rates.
[url="http://www.dtic.mil/srch/search?searchview=d4&c=t2&changequery=1&template=%2Fdtic%2Fsearch%2Ftr%2Fresults-template-tr.html&s=1&fql=y&n=30&sort=-RD&xml=1&xmlcontent=stereoscopic&pdfitems=&enableLemmatization=YES"]http://www.dtic.mil/srch/search?searchview...mmatization=YES[/url]
You can also use this link to search for many stereo 3d research papers commissioned by the defense department - there were some very interesting papers in there as well.
[url="http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA390448"]http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA390448[/url] - here was one relating to sickness and stereoscopy.
I would be interested in a scientific explanation for this difference.
http://www.3d.curtin.edu.au/ Andrew Woods has several papers on why CRT caused ghosting, one of the papers here describe the decay levels of the green phosphor not falling off fast enough so you got crosstalk. I would recommend reading all the papers here though if you like scientific information relating to stereo3d. I too suffered from headaches on CRT, even at high refresh rates.
http://www.dtic.mil/srch/search?searchview...mmatization=YES
You can also use this link to search for many stereo 3d research papers commissioned by the defense department - there were some very interesting papers in there as well.
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA390448 - here was one relating to sickness and stereoscopy.