The Future Of 3d Vision (2)
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Yey! So.. 3DVision is officially dead (sorry... catching with the news a bit later...) I guess, I can either buy another 2080ti for SLI and Future usage (SLI...the thing that never worked properly out of the box...right... rofl) OR just sell my 3D Surround monitors (while I still can) and buy a generic and bland "4k" shitty 2D monitor in case I want to get SOFTWARE updates for the 1200£ GPU I bought a few months ago... RIGHT? It seems now that I'm locked on 425.31 driver (that should get updates until April 2020 for 3D Vision, but what about OTHER important and bug fixes?!?! - They don't say). Is the current 425.31 driver mature enough for the RTX series, so I can stay on it until EOL?! Somehow I wonder... NVIDIA, AT LEAST RELEASE YOUR PROPRIETARY 3DVISION DRIVER AS A STAND-ALONE and SEPARATE INSTALL so I am not forced on 425.31 driver until the END OF DAYS... PLEASE!!! (Somehow... I think this will fall on deaf ears...)
Yey! So.. 3DVision is officially dead (sorry... catching with the news a bit later...)

I guess, I can either buy another 2080ti for SLI and Future usage (SLI...the thing that never worked properly out of the box...right... rofl) OR just sell my 3D Surround monitors (while I still can) and buy a generic and bland "4k" shitty 2D monitor in case I want to get SOFTWARE updates for the 1200£ GPU I bought a few months ago... RIGHT?

It seems now that I'm locked on 425.31 driver (that should get updates until April 2020 for 3D Vision, but what about OTHER important and bug fixes?!?! - They don't say).

Is the current 425.31 driver mature enough for the RTX series, so I can stay on it until EOL?! Somehow I wonder...

NVIDIA, AT LEAST RELEASE YOUR PROPRIETARY 3DVISION DRIVER AS A STAND-ALONE and SEPARATE INSTALL so I am not forced on 425.31 driver until the END OF DAYS... PLEASE!!! (Somehow... I think this will fall on deaf ears...)

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#16
Posted 05/02/2019 12:16 AM   
Has anyone taken this to the general NVidia forum? Maybe the RTX 2000 and 1000 series boards? Posting in here is probably the least effective place to make any noise at this point.
Has anyone taken this to the general NVidia forum? Maybe the RTX 2000 and 1000 series boards?

Posting in here is probably the least effective place to make any noise at this point.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.-------------------Vitals: Windows 10 64bit, Ryzen 5 2600x, GTX 1070, 16GB, 3D Vision, CV1
Handy Driver DiscussionHelix Mod - community fixes Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes

#17
Posted 05/02/2019 09:35 AM   
[url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1102231/geforce-drivers/nvidia-please-don-t-kill-3d-vision-/1/[/url] [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1108402/geforce-drivers/so-nvidia-made-a-choice-/[/url]

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NVidia driver 419.17
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#18
Posted 05/02/2019 10:50 AM   
Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.
Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.

#19
Posted 05/02/2019 12:04 PM   
[quote="costiq"][url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1102231/geforce-drivers/nvidia-please-don-t-kill-3d-vision-/1/[/url] [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1108402/geforce-drivers/so-nvidia-made-a-choice-/[/url][/quote] That's some amazing artowrk mate, very moving and to the point! Well done!

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#20
Posted 05/02/2019 12:28 PM   
[quote="RAGEdemon"][quote="costiq"][url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1102231/geforce-drivers/nvidia-please-don-t-kill-3d-vision-/1/[/url] [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1108402/geforce-drivers/so-nvidia-made-a-choice-/[/url][/quote] That's some amazing artowrk mate, very moving and to the point! Well done![/quote] Thanks RAGEdemon! Your nice feedback is appreciated. :)
RAGEdemon said:
costiq said:https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1102231/geforce-drivers/nvidia-please-don-t-kill-3d-vision-/1/
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1108402/geforce-drivers/so-nvidia-made-a-choice-/


That's some amazing artowrk mate, very moving and to the point! Well done!


Thanks RAGEdemon! Your nice feedback is appreciated. :)

Overclocked Intel® Core™i5-4690k Quad Core
32 Gb RAM
8GB GEFORCE GTX 1080
3D Vision 2
Windows 10 64 Bit
NVidia driver 419.17
SAMSUNG - UE55H8000 Smart 3D 55" Curved
Philips G-Sync 272G
Oculus Rift with Touch controlers

#21
Posted 05/02/2019 01:02 PM   
[quote="StevieNvidia"]Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.[/quote] I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone. It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver. I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.
StevieNvidia said:Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.


I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone.

It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver.

I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.

#22
Posted 05/02/2019 01:27 PM   
[quote="BazzaLB"]I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.[/quote] I'm afraid English is not my first language, so I must have missed that. Could you please guide me to where exactly has NVidia been insulted in that thread?
BazzaLB said:I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.


I'm afraid English is not my first language, so I must have missed that. Could you please guide me to where exactly has NVidia been insulted in that thread?

Overclocked Intel® Core™i5-4690k Quad Core
32 Gb RAM
8GB GEFORCE GTX 1080
3D Vision 2
Windows 10 64 Bit
NVidia driver 419.17
SAMSUNG - UE55H8000 Smart 3D 55" Curved
Philips G-Sync 272G
Oculus Rift with Touch controlers

#23
Posted 05/02/2019 02:09 PM   
[quote="Helifax"]NVIDIA, AT LEAST RELEASE YOUR PROPRIETARY 3DVISION DRIVER AS A STAND-ALONE and SEPARATE INSTALL so I am not forced on 425.31 driver until the END OF DAYS... PLEASE!!! (Somehow... I think this will fall on deaf ears...) [/quote] I guess you missed [url=https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1101775/3d-vision/future-of-3d-vision-support-official-announcement-from-nvidia-/post/6039406/#6039406]this[/url] [quote="Tim@NVIDIA"] Hey everyone - Thank you for your enthusiasm here. We elevated your concerns internally in March, and there has been discussion around your requests. Unfortunately, at this time, NVIDIA will not be making 3D Vision open source. Our teams are focused on continuing to provide high-quality drivers and support for our other great products. I know this is not the result many of you would like to hear, but it is the current reality. We appreciate your support throughout the years. If there are other questions about the end of support for 3D Vision, please refer to our support page. https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781[/quote]
Helifax said:NVIDIA, AT LEAST RELEASE YOUR PROPRIETARY 3DVISION DRIVER AS A STAND-ALONE and SEPARATE INSTALL so I am not forced on 425.31 driver until the END OF DAYS... PLEASE!!! (Somehow... I think this will fall on deaf ears...)



I guess you missed this


Tim@NVIDIA said:
Hey everyone -

Thank you for your enthusiasm here. We elevated your concerns internally in March, and there has been discussion around your requests. Unfortunately, at this time, NVIDIA will not be making 3D Vision open source. Our teams are focused on continuing to provide high-quality drivers and support for our other great products.

I know this is not the result many of you would like to hear, but it is the current reality. We appreciate your support throughout the years. If there are other questions about the end of support for 3D Vision, please refer to our support page. https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4781

#24
Posted 05/02/2019 02:50 PM   
[quote="BazzaLB"][quote="StevieNvidia"]Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.[/quote] I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone. It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver. I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.[/quote] This is BS I have thousands of dollars tied up in 3D Vision related equipment I want to know the status of 3D Vision and yes NVidia we are not happy with your decision.
BazzaLB said:
StevieNvidia said:Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.


I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone.

It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver.

I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.


This is BS I have thousands of dollars tied up in 3D Vision related equipment I want to know the status of 3D Vision and yes NVidia we are not happy with your decision.

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

#25
Posted 05/02/2019 03:14 PM   
[quote="BazzaLB"]I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.[/quote] Well none of us had no clue Nvidia was discontinuing 3D Vision, so the announcement itself is what derailed the thread. Personally, I can't see a way going forward. Being stuck on a driver limits too many things and the community here is too small to substain the needed cash flow. I proposed long ago that helixblog impose a log in, so that we could have actual feedback on the size of the user base of the fixes. bo3b suggested a monthly fee, so if 100 of us pledge, how are fixes distributed? The pledge is just for wrapper maintenance? How do we keep the fixes out of the hands of non contributors? How do we handle day 1 pledgers vs day 365 pledgers? Day one pledgers would have several hundred dollars invested and Johnnny come lately shouldn't be entitled to the same level of access, if it is subscription based. There's a thousand questions and what ifs. But currently, it looks like it will be limited to a closed eco system of Nvidia Legacy drivers. I personally suggest that shader hackers no longer post fixes to the blog, until the monetization of continued support is sorted out. Any new fixes should move away from helixblog and it should be put in archive status. What is there, will remain there. A new monetized site should be introduced where there is nothing available for lurkers/non supporters/non registerers. If the only way forward, is through our wallets, fixes should not be available to the masses. Nor should some pay pennies, while other pay hundreds. It seems the day of Donations has passed, imho
BazzaLB said:I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.


Well none of us had no clue Nvidia was discontinuing 3D Vision, so the announcement itself is what derailed the thread.

Personally, I can't see a way going forward. Being stuck on a driver limits too many things and the community here is too small to substain the needed cash flow. I proposed long ago that helixblog impose a log in, so that we could have actual feedback on the size of the user base of the fixes.


bo3b suggested a monthly fee, so if 100 of us pledge, how are fixes distributed? The pledge is just for wrapper maintenance? How do we keep the fixes out of the hands of non contributors? How do we handle day 1 pledgers vs day 365 pledgers? Day one pledgers would have several hundred dollars invested and Johnnny come lately shouldn't be entitled to the same level of access, if it is subscription based.

There's a thousand questions and what ifs. But currently, it looks like it will be limited to a closed eco system of Nvidia Legacy drivers.

I personally suggest that shader hackers no longer post fixes to the blog, until the monetization of continued support is sorted out.

Any new fixes should move away from helixblog and it should be put in archive status. What is there, will remain there.

A new monetized site should be introduced where there is nothing available for lurkers/non supporters/non registerers.

If the only way forward, is through our wallets, fixes should not be available to the masses. Nor should some pay pennies, while other pay hundreds.

It seems the day of Donations has passed, imho

#26
Posted 05/02/2019 04:03 PM   
I think that the future of 3d vision requires that Nvidia respect the operation of our pyramid when it comes to installing its new drivers ... I do not worry about how they must do. Either with a program external to the drivers, with a small code in the new drivers, or even changing their way of installing the new drivers so they do not uninstall the quad buffer ... I do not care how they do it, I just care that my computer continues to light the green light of the pyramid ... I think that this small "club of the elect" that Dman proposes for people with a lot of money is not the way to turn the efforts ... I think that you have to be creative, yes, but in a universal solution that serves the rich and the poor, in which you have to see Nvidia involved as the ultimate responsible for the hardware that they have sold to us. I think that somehow we have to be able to be listened to and taken care of as customers and force Nvidia to fulfill the commitment acquired with us. If they do not wish to update it, it is up to them, but it should continue to work when I have it connected to my PC, as their obligation.
I think that the future of 3d vision requires that Nvidia respect the operation of our pyramid when it comes to installing its new drivers ...
I do not worry about how they must do.
Either with a program external to the drivers, with a small code in the new drivers, or even changing their way of installing the new drivers so they do not uninstall the quad buffer ...
I do not care how they do it, I just care that my computer continues to light the green light of the pyramid ...
I think that this small "club of the elect" that Dman proposes for people with a lot of money is not the way to turn the efforts ...
I think that you have to be creative, yes, but in a universal solution that serves the rich and the poor, in which you have to see Nvidia involved as the ultimate responsible for the hardware that they have sold to us.
I think that somehow we have to be able to be listened to and taken care of as customers and force Nvidia to fulfill the commitment acquired with us.
If they do not wish to update it, it is up to them, but it should continue to work when I have it connected to my PC, as their obligation.

An old man with an old 24" 3D gamer Pc, Helixmod Disciples fan

#27
Posted 05/02/2019 06:21 PM   
[quote="BazzaLB"][quote="StevieNvidia"]Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.[/quote] I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone. It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver. I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.[/quote] Agree with your comments about the 3dvision driver and the difficulties with extricating it from the display driver. Disagree with your commentary on the thread. The purpose was exactly what you stated and it was that way right from the start. It wasn't until there was talk of sending emails or using twitter that Nvidia locked it. Ridiculous. It was never solely about open sourcing the driver, that was just an avenue of exploration. It's like someone shook the wrong tree and a long lost fabled moderator deigned to appear just to wield a ban hammer. Laughable really given how the community have propped up the product for so many years.
BazzaLB said:
StevieNvidia said:Couldn't they just leave the 3D Vision driver inside new drivers without updating it? So it would work at least.


I would expect that the 3DVision driver would make calls into the standard driver. I would be surprised if it was completely stand alone. They probably want to be able to change some of these standard driver calls (parameters, return values etc) without worrying about breaking the 3DVision driver that calls the same functions. Makes perfect sense to me and I am not sure why anyone expects the 3DVision driver to be completely standalone.

It would probably be a large amount of work to duplicate all the shared calls and create deprecated versions of them in order to make the 3DVision driver able to operate in isolation and independent of the standard driver.

I actually thought the other thread was so DSS could gather feedback on the likelihood of community support for an independent software effort on his and Bo3b's behalf and whether there was any financial return possible on that which would help drive its overall plausability. I guess I was wrong about that thread's purpose because it basically just turned into a thread for insulting nvidia. Not sure what that was supposed to achieve.. well.. exactly what it did I guess.


Agree with your comments about the 3dvision driver and the difficulties with extricating it from the display driver.

Disagree with your commentary on the thread. The purpose was exactly what you stated and it was that way right from the start. It wasn't until there was talk of sending emails or using twitter that Nvidia locked it. Ridiculous. It was never solely about open sourcing the driver, that was just an avenue of exploration.

It's like someone shook the wrong tree and a long lost fabled moderator deigned to appear just to wield a ban hammer.
Laughable really given how the community have propped up the product for so many years.

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#28
Posted 05/02/2019 06:35 PM   
By way of observation, there are a few points that I'd like to make. 1. The fact that DarkStarSword's post was locked without explanation, really isn't a good sign folks. If there is any possible future for stereoscopic 3D gaming in general, it no longer resides on a site that is indifferent at best or even hostile at worst to its own long-standing community and which, as a separate sub-forum could very well be shut down without prior notice at any time. Other alternative forum sites exist, and really should be sought out right now and frequented in parallel along with this one, if only to have the option of freer discussion. 2. Although there may perhaps be the ambition, there still doesn't appear to be a game plan as yet, and time seems to be running out. As a community we should be assessing what resources we still, currently and collectively speaking, have at our disposal in terms of:- Intellectual and technical ability and expertise. Financial resources. Ability to organize and co-ordinate. The will to act. 3. In the absence of some kind of formal structure or approach, all prior accomplishments are in danger of going to waste, which needless to say would be a great pity, considering just how much effort has been put in to keeping stereoscopic 3D gaming alive by so many truly talented people. 4. 3D Vision, may or may not be dead, but perhaps 3D gaming isn't, just so long as glasses-free or eye tracking technology is finally brought to market, hopefully in the near future. There are examples that exist that are currently out there, that may well have the potential to extend the life of 3D gaming a good deal longer. Ultimately, it may well turn out that sufficient resources simply aren't available amongst what's left of the 3D community in order to overcome any seemingly insurmountable technical hurdles. If that is indeed the case, then it's been a hell of a ride, in a good way of course, and it has to be accepted that all good things must eventually come to an end. It just appears as though an exercise to definitively determine that, hasn't as yet been carried out. My two cents.
By way of observation, there are a few points that I'd like to make.

1. The fact that DarkStarSword's post was locked without explanation, really isn't a good sign folks. If there is any possible future for stereoscopic 3D gaming in general, it no longer resides on a site that is indifferent at best or even hostile at worst to its own long-standing community and which, as a separate sub-forum could very well be shut down without prior notice at any time. Other alternative forum sites exist, and really should be sought out right now and frequented in parallel along with this one, if only to have the option of freer discussion.

2. Although there may perhaps be the ambition, there still doesn't appear to be a game plan as yet, and time seems to be running out. As a community we should be assessing what resources we still, currently and collectively speaking, have at our disposal in terms of:-

Intellectual and technical ability and expertise.

Financial resources.

Ability to organize and co-ordinate.

The will to act.

3. In the absence of some kind of formal structure or approach, all prior accomplishments are in danger of going to waste, which needless to say would be a great pity, considering just how much effort has been put in to keeping stereoscopic 3D gaming alive by so many truly talented people.

4. 3D Vision, may or may not be dead, but perhaps 3D gaming isn't, just so long as glasses-free or eye tracking technology is finally brought to market, hopefully in the near future. There are examples that exist that are currently out there, that may well have the potential to extend the life of 3D gaming a good deal longer.


Ultimately, it may well turn out that sufficient resources simply aren't available amongst what's left of the 3D community in order to overcome any seemingly insurmountable technical hurdles. If that is indeed the case, then it's been a hell of a ride, in a good way of course, and it has to be accepted that all good things must eventually come to an end. It just appears as though an exercise to definitively determine that, hasn't as yet been carried out. My two cents.

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#29
Posted 05/02/2019 08:47 PM   
What was the name of that other program that allowed stereoscopic gaming which was discontinued a few years back? I use a projector and never had the actual 3DVision glasses and that program seemed to work fine for me. I assume it would still work on the current drivers. It didn't rely on any proprietary hardware afaik, it just put out a side-by-side/top-bottom/etc image which pretty much any 3D display can then work with. I'm mostly a layman when it comes to how this is all accomplished but what's there to stop something like that from being made again?
What was the name of that other program that allowed stereoscopic gaming which was discontinued a few years back? I use a projector and never had the actual 3DVision glasses and that program seemed to work fine for me. I assume it would still work on the current drivers.

It didn't rely on any proprietary hardware afaik, it just put out a side-by-side/top-bottom/etc image which pretty much any 3D display can then work with. I'm mostly a layman when it comes to how this is all accomplished but what's there to stop something like that from being made again?

#30
Posted 05/03/2019 01:23 AM   
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