3D Vision Cpu Core Bottleneck
  8 / 14    
[quote="DHR"]@terintamel 7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in [b]real 3D[/b] using community fix: * Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game. * Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always * Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU * Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU [/quote] I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me. I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.
DHR said:@terintamel


7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in real 3D using community fix:
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game.
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always
* Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU
* Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU



I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me.

I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 07:51 PM   
Also I know @helifax and @bo3b has seen them but @RAGEdemon/@DHR have you seen my videos I posted in the other thread that show what my stutter looks like? I tried my best to capture the stuttering but I was recording with a cell phone in one hand and a gamepad in the other. [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/961616/3d-vision/stuttering-low-fps-in-3dvision-with-only-certain-games/post/4965878/#4965878[/url] Posts 30,36,37.
Also I know @helifax and @bo3b has seen them but @RAGEdemon/@DHR have you seen my videos I posted in the other thread that show what my stutter looks like? I tried my best to capture the stuttering but I was recording with a cell phone in one hand and a gamepad in the other.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/961616/3d-vision/stuttering-low-fps-in-3dvision-with-only-certain-games/post/4965878/#4965878 Posts 30,36,37.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 08:01 PM   
[quote="DHR"]6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode.[/quote] Just a note on this, I was studying the JC3 stutters yesterday, and the big surprise is that it doesn't happen in 2D with 3D disabled. I get a smallish frame rate drop during times it would stutter, but nothing that causes stutter. 3D enabled, but inactive, no 3Dmigoto installed, I get massive stutters. Even in CM. Newest driver made this better, but it still happens. Also, no more memory leak that I can tell. I monitored it specifically, and I think they nailed down the main RAM memory leak. I'm less certain of VRAM, it seems like it might still be leaking slowly there.
DHR said:6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode.

Just a note on this, I was studying the JC3 stutters yesterday, and the big surprise is that it doesn't happen in 2D with 3D disabled. I get a smallish frame rate drop during times it would stutter, but nothing that causes stutter.

3D enabled, but inactive, no 3Dmigoto installed, I get massive stutters. Even in CM. Newest driver made this better, but it still happens.

Also, no more memory leak that I can tell. I monitored it specifically, and I think they nailed down the main RAM memory leak. I'm less certain of VRAM, it seems like it might still be leaking slowly there.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

Posted 09/15/2016 08:45 PM   
[quote="terintamel"]At this point I really wish I had not sold my 660ti so quickly as I could have put it in my system to see if the issue is a Pascal problem or not. Ok. Please bear with me as I have some questions. I ask them because I truly want to understand things better. 1. If I install Win 7 and my hard stuttering continues what is to stop Nvidia from still claiming the problem is my system and not their drivers? If the stuttering stops what is to stop them from claiming the issue is one of my other system components that must not work well in Win 10 and the issue is still not their drivers?[/quote] Nothing would stop them, but it's not their approach. If NVidia were in the mode to ignore bug reports, they could just say 3D is unsupported altogether, which they don't do. They say it's legacy, but they have demonstrated they are willing to fix bugs. They are not looking for excuses to not fix things, they are trying to narrow down the parameters. BTW, this is the best chance of finding what goes on, and get it fixed. But, you need to make a simple, clear, test case for them. If they can reproduce it, they'll fix it. If you add to much noise and variables, they will skip it. [quote]2. In games that offer DX9 and DX11 modes where DX9 shows NO stuttering, what is the major differences in DX11 that could cause the stuttering in DX11 mode only? As I understand it the only things that should be different are the code that is executed by the CPU, GPU, Sound, and probably input devices (KB, mouse, gamepad). The other PC subsystems (PCI bus, storage controllers, etc) should be operating with the same "code" as they were before so I can't see them being the problem. That to me limits the potential cause of the stutter directly to the CPU,GPU,and sound systems/drivers. Now when running in 3dvision there should be no change to how the audio is processed so I want to rule out the soundcard as the cause. That leaves the CPU/GPU. So I guess my question is when the 3dVision driver is enabled (even when 3d is off in game) are the CPU and the GPU both now processing altered code than when the 3dvision driver is disabled?[/quote] No, these are totally different code paths. There is essentially nothing to be learned from DX9 vs. DX11 comparisons, the programming models are completely different. And how they load the system are totally different. As a general rule, DX9 code paths are lighter weight, doing less work. With DX11 the developers tend to be sloppy and add a bunch of junk that burns cycles for marginal image quality gains. And, the performance bar for DX11 games tends to be super low like 1080p@30. If they hit that for consoles, they stop looking. The comparison here could be as simple as DX9 doesn't add a bunch of junk effects and thus runs smoother. [quote]3. I hear mentioning of draw calls and things like that being doubled in 3d and that makes sense. My question is are the draw calls and the like effectively being doubled when 3dvision is on, but 3d is off in game?[/quote] That's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered. With 3D inactive but enabled, I would most definitely not expect it do do the double-draw calls. I think we can definitively conclude that this is true, because even though we get a performance hit, it's not even close to the 2x+ we get when 3D Vision Automatic is active. Based on that thought, that suggests that your stutter cannot be the draw-calls bottleneck, because simply enabling 3D would not increase draw calls. [quote]4. If when running in 3dvision is causing a CPU or GPU bottleneck shouldn't the bottle neck be removed or severely lessened when I turn all graphics settings to their lowest value and run at a much lower resolution? For me the hard stutter remains no matter what in game resolution or graphics settings I choose.[/quote] If it's a GPU bottleneck, we'd expect it to get better when lowering the resolution (and maybe effects.) Effects don't always have a lot of impact, so it's less clear there, but resolution *always* has an impact. Lowering resolution means the GPU has to work less, and can usually pick up the pace. So much so that it will shift the bottleneck back to CPU, which cannot feed fast enough. The alternate is also true and worth experimenting with. If you up the resolution dramatically, the GPU will be the bottleneck, and free up the CPU. [i]This would be a particularly interesting experiment for your scenario[/i], because you might eliminate stutter, while actually getting a slower frame rate. You said 30 fps is fine as long as there is no stutter, and this might work. [quote]5. I know it has been dismissed as irrelevant, but I still find it a very odd coincidence that the following seems to be true about each user who says they are having stuttering or low GPU usage issues. The pattern seems to be at least one or some combination of the following is true. * User has a Pascal card * Game is running DX11 * Game is open world * Game does not have native 3d and is relying on the driver ton convert to 3d (either CM or 3d auto) * User is running Window 10[/quote] Based on your list of games, we can rule several of these out. BTW, these are specific to your system, we can't really make general conclusions because things are always complicated. DX11: No. You have multiple games using DX11 that do not stutter. Open world: No. Deus ex games are both open-world. Automatic vs. Direct: Unlikely. GTA5 stutters and it's Direct. CM is 100% different than Automatic and it stutters. Win10: maybe. Pascal: maybe. Latest drivers: maybe. [quote]6. Here is the list of games that I have issues with and some games other users in this thread have mentioned as well. I hope you see a pattern. Games with performance issues when 3dvision driver is enabled. I have listed the user who reported the problem if it was not me. The ones reported by me all have hard stutter that comes a sudden drop in GPU usage * Witcher 3 - DX11 open world (RAGEdemon) * Just Cause 3 - DX11 open world (bo3b) * Watch Dogs - DX11 open world (CM mode) * Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX11 open world (CM/auto mode) * Arkham Origins - DX11 open world (native 3d) (terintamel, masterotaku, sammy123) * Mirrors Edge Catalyst - DX11 open world (CM mode) (terintamel, seregin)[/quote] I'm inclined to agree with DHR that it's more a question of CPU usage/demand in these games. All are known to be CPU pigs. I'm not as fast to declare your AMD CPU the problem, but it's possible. It could be something weird like the single-core performance that matters the most for 3D Vision Automatic. Helifax tends to not have problems with his wicked high OC. You tend to have more problems than the rest of us. The rest of us seem to be in the middle, sometimes problems, usually not. Our "3 core limit" idea might simply be that in 3D Vision Automatic, there is too much work for a single thread to do, and that it's actually single-core performance that we are seeing, where it cannot hand off work to other threads fast enough, and those other cores stall. I still think it's not that clear, but it is suggestive of single-core performance. [quote]7. List of games I have recently tested on my system that show no GPU usage/stutter problems. Games I have tested with no issues. * Deus EX: HR - DX11 (native 3d) * Deus Ex: MD - DX11 (native 3d) * Hitman Absolution - DX11 (native 3d running in CM mode?) * Thief 2013 - DX11 (native 3d) * Tomb Raider 2013 - DX11 (native 3d) * Bioshock Infinite - DX11 (CM mode) * Akrham Origins - DX9 (native 3d) * Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX9 (3d auto and helixmod) * DarkSiders 2: Deathfinitive - DX9 (helixmod) * Borderland 2 - DX9 (helix) * Source Engine games (HL2, Portal2, BlackMesa) - DX9 (3d auto) * Doom 3: BFG - Opengl (native 3d) * Crysis 2 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d) * Crysis 3 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d) * Mirror's Edge - DX9 (helix) * Alien Isolation - DX11 (CM mode) * Metro 2033/LL Redux - DX11 (3d auto?)[/quote] Great lists, and thank you for doing the leg work. This is the essence of community- where we all share our experiences and do some work to help out. If we all only ever take, then it's not a community. [quote]8. Results of the DPC tests showed no latency spikes or issues when not in game. Should I also run the DPC monitor and test while in game as well?[/quote] Definitely worth running in-game. Could be latency spikes wildly when things are busy. I think this one is not super likely, but it would be worth ruling out on your system. [quote]9. I will see if I can do the Win 7 tests, but it will take some time for me to get that setup. I am already spending more time on this than my wife likes :).[/quote] Yeah, it's a drag to setup, but it makes ruling out problems much, much easier. Dual boot is the way to go. Your system is a bit unique with a high power GPU and lower power CPU, which is why this is more valuable on your specific setup. I've got a dual boot for example, but it's not enough to say Win10/7 for your scenario. Make an image backup before you do anything, I've had Win10 destroy my alternate partitions and/or blow up their boots.
terintamel said:At this point I really wish I had not sold my 660ti so quickly as I could have put it in my system to see if the issue is a Pascal problem or not.

Ok. Please bear with me as I have some questions. I ask them because I truly want to understand things better.

1. If I install Win 7 and my hard stuttering continues what is to stop Nvidia from still claiming the problem is my system and not their drivers? If the stuttering stops what is to stop them from claiming the issue is one of my other system components that must not work well in Win 10 and the issue is still not their drivers?

Nothing would stop them, but it's not their approach. If NVidia were in the mode to ignore bug reports, they could just say 3D is unsupported altogether, which they don't do. They say it's legacy, but they have demonstrated they are willing to fix bugs. They are not looking for excuses to not fix things, they are trying to narrow down the parameters.

BTW, this is the best chance of finding what goes on, and get it fixed. But, you need to make a simple, clear, test case for them. If they can reproduce it, they'll fix it. If you add to much noise and variables, they will skip it.


2. In games that offer DX9 and DX11 modes where DX9 shows NO stuttering, what is the major differences in DX11 that could cause the stuttering in DX11 mode only? As I understand it the only things that should be different are the code that is executed by the CPU, GPU, Sound, and probably input devices (KB, mouse, gamepad). The other PC subsystems (PCI bus, storage controllers, etc) should be operating with the same "code" as they were before so I can't see them being the problem. That to me limits the potential cause of the stutter directly to the CPU,GPU,and sound systems/drivers. Now when running in 3dvision there should be no change to how the audio is processed so I want to rule out the soundcard as the cause. That leaves the CPU/GPU. So I guess my question is when the 3dVision driver is enabled (even when 3d is off in game) are the CPU and the GPU both now processing altered code than when the 3dvision driver is disabled?

No, these are totally different code paths. There is essentially nothing to be learned from DX9 vs. DX11 comparisons, the programming models are completely different. And how they load the system are totally different.

As a general rule, DX9 code paths are lighter weight, doing less work. With DX11 the developers tend to be sloppy and add a bunch of junk that burns cycles for marginal image quality gains. And, the performance bar for DX11 games tends to be super low like 1080p@30. If they hit that for consoles, they stop looking.

The comparison here could be as simple as DX9 doesn't add a bunch of junk effects and thus runs smoother.


3. I hear mentioning of draw calls and things like that being doubled in 3d and that makes sense. My question is are the draw calls and the like effectively being doubled when 3dvision is on, but 3d is off in game?

That's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered. With 3D inactive but enabled, I would most definitely not expect it do do the double-draw calls. I think we can definitively conclude that this is true, because even though we get a performance hit, it's not even close to the 2x+ we get when 3D Vision Automatic is active.

Based on that thought, that suggests that your stutter cannot be the draw-calls bottleneck, because simply enabling 3D would not increase draw calls.


4. If when running in 3dvision is causing a CPU or GPU bottleneck shouldn't the bottle neck be removed or severely lessened when I turn all graphics settings to their lowest value and run at a much lower resolution? For me the hard stutter remains no matter what in game resolution or graphics settings I choose.

If it's a GPU bottleneck, we'd expect it to get better when lowering the resolution (and maybe effects.) Effects don't always have a lot of impact, so it's less clear there, but resolution *always* has an impact. Lowering resolution means the GPU has to work less, and can usually pick up the pace. So much so that it will shift the bottleneck back to CPU, which cannot feed fast enough.

The alternate is also true and worth experimenting with. If you up the resolution dramatically, the GPU will be the bottleneck, and free up the CPU.

This would be a particularly interesting experiment for your scenario, because you might eliminate stutter, while actually getting a slower frame rate. You said 30 fps is fine as long as there is no stutter, and this might work.


5. I know it has been dismissed as irrelevant, but I still find it a very odd coincidence that the following seems to be true about each user who says they are having stuttering or low GPU usage issues. The pattern seems to be at least one or some combination of the following is true.
* User has a Pascal card
* Game is running DX11
* Game is open world
* Game does not have native 3d and is relying on the driver ton convert to 3d (either CM or 3d auto)
* User is running Window 10

Based on your list of games, we can rule several of these out. BTW, these are specific to your system, we can't really make general conclusions because things are always complicated.

DX11: No. You have multiple games using DX11 that do not stutter.
Open world: No. Deus ex games are both open-world.
Automatic vs. Direct: Unlikely. GTA5 stutters and it's Direct. CM is 100% different than Automatic and it stutters.

Win10: maybe.
Pascal: maybe.
Latest drivers: maybe.


6. Here is the list of games that I have issues with and some games other users in this thread have mentioned as well. I hope you see a pattern.

Games with performance issues when 3dvision driver is enabled. I have listed the user who reported the problem if it was not me. The ones reported by me all have hard stutter that comes a sudden drop in GPU usage
* Witcher 3 - DX11 open world (RAGEdemon)
* Just Cause 3 - DX11 open world (bo3b)
* Watch Dogs - DX11 open world (CM mode)
* Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX11 open world (CM/auto mode)
* Arkham Origins - DX11 open world (native 3d) (terintamel, masterotaku, sammy123)
* Mirrors Edge Catalyst - DX11 open world (CM mode) (terintamel, seregin)

I'm inclined to agree with DHR that it's more a question of CPU usage/demand in these games. All are known to be CPU pigs.

I'm not as fast to declare your AMD CPU the problem, but it's possible. It could be something weird like the single-core performance that matters the most for 3D Vision Automatic. Helifax tends to not have problems with his wicked high OC. You tend to have more problems than the rest of us. The rest of us seem to be in the middle, sometimes problems, usually not.

Our "3 core limit" idea might simply be that in 3D Vision Automatic, there is too much work for a single thread to do, and that it's actually single-core performance that we are seeing, where it cannot hand off work to other threads fast enough, and those other cores stall.

I still think it's not that clear, but it is suggestive of single-core performance.


7. List of games I have recently tested on my system that show no GPU usage/stutter problems.
Games I have tested with no issues.
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 (native 3d)
* Deus Ex: MD - DX11 (native 3d)
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 (native 3d running in CM mode?)
* Thief 2013 - DX11 (native 3d)
* Tomb Raider 2013 - DX11 (native 3d)
* Bioshock Infinite - DX11 (CM mode)
* Akrham Origins - DX9 (native 3d)
* Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX9 (3d auto and helixmod)
* DarkSiders 2: Deathfinitive - DX9 (helixmod)
* Borderland 2 - DX9 (helix)
* Source Engine games (HL2, Portal2, BlackMesa) - DX9 (3d auto)
* Doom 3: BFG - Opengl (native 3d)
* Crysis 2 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d)
* Crysis 3 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d)
* Mirror's Edge - DX9 (helix)
* Alien Isolation - DX11 (CM mode)
* Metro 2033/LL Redux - DX11 (3d auto?)

Great lists, and thank you for doing the leg work. This is the essence of community- where we all share our experiences and do some work to help out. If we all only ever take, then it's not a community.


8. Results of the DPC tests showed no latency spikes or issues when not in game. Should I also run the DPC monitor and test while in game as well?

Definitely worth running in-game. Could be latency spikes wildly when things are busy. I think this one is not super likely, but it would be worth ruling out on your system.


9. I will see if I can do the Win 7 tests, but it will take some time for me to get that setup. I am already spending more time on this than my wife likes :).

Yeah, it's a drag to setup, but it makes ruling out problems much, much easier. Dual boot is the way to go. Your system is a bit unique with a high power GPU and lower power CPU, which is why this is more valuable on your specific setup. I've got a dual boot for example, but it's not enough to say Win10/7 for your scenario.

Make an image backup before you do anything, I've had Win10 destroy my alternate partitions and/or blow up their boots.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

Posted 09/15/2016 09:13 PM   
Just did a quick test on my AWESOME 5 years OLD Alienware laptop: - Intel I5 @ 2.4 GHZ. It has 2 Real cores and 2 HT cores (simulated ones). It tends to pass as quad core if you query it, but is not a real quad;) - 8 GB of VRAM - AWESOME state of the art GT 555M GPU overclocked by 30% :)) - Kepler GPU. I did the tests on the following games (I will try to keep this simple): - Witcher 3. Awesome performance of 10 FPS in 3D (1680x1050), GPU running 99%, CPU running 98/76/66/66%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering. - Metro 2033. 30 FPS in 3D, GPU 99%, CPU running below 88% per core. No stutters. - Far Cry 3 / Blood Dragon. Again awesome 15 FPS in 3D. GPU 99%. CPU stressed out on all for cores to 93%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering. I only tested these cause I had to download them again. This was on Windows 10, no "Millennium" update, latest Nvidia drivers... I am at a loss... Surely the FPS was crap in 3D but I put everything on High on all games as I wanted to stress out. Those 10 FPS were very rounded. I actually measured the Frame latency in MSI and it was a constant number. I didn't see any stutters like in the video either, just round all over low FPS... I have no idea:-s Like the OP, this is a Kepler based GPU similar to his 660Ti. And like him, I don't see any issues... I tend to believe more and more that is a problem around the Pascal architecture and the 3D Vision driver. @terintamel: Tell you what! We can experiment this quite easily and I know how;) Do you have any of the OpenGL games that my wrapper supports? Best game to test would be DOOM (2016) http://3dsurroundgaming.com/OpenGL3DVisionGames.html Recently, I swapped the wrapper from 3D Vision Automatic to 3D Vision Direct. In 3D Automatic the performance was a bit lower than what I can do with 3D Vision Automatic. I can provide the wrapper as using both 3D Vision Automatic and 3D Vision Direct and we can SBS to see if the Pascal GPU behaves differently between different code paths in 3D Vision driver. If a driver bug is there, it should trigger hopefully:)
Just did a quick test on my AWESOME 5 years OLD Alienware laptop:

- Intel I5 @ 2.4 GHZ. It has 2 Real cores and 2 HT cores (simulated ones). It tends to pass as quad core if you query it, but is not a real quad;)
- 8 GB of VRAM
- AWESOME state of the art GT 555M GPU overclocked by 30% :)) - Kepler GPU.

I did the tests on the following games (I will try to keep this simple):

- Witcher 3. Awesome performance of 10 FPS in 3D (1680x1050), GPU running 99%, CPU running 98/76/66/66%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering.

- Metro 2033. 30 FPS in 3D, GPU 99%, CPU running below 88% per core. No stutters.

- Far Cry 3 / Blood Dragon. Again awesome 15 FPS in 3D. GPU 99%. CPU stressed out on all for cores to 93%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering.

I only tested these cause I had to download them again.

This was on Windows 10, no "Millennium" update, latest Nvidia drivers...

I am at a loss... Surely the FPS was crap in 3D but I put everything on High on all games as I wanted to stress out. Those 10 FPS were very rounded. I actually measured the Frame latency in MSI and it was a constant number. I didn't see any stutters like in the video either, just round all over low FPS...

I have no idea:-s

Like the OP, this is a Kepler based GPU similar to his 660Ti. And like him, I don't see any issues...
I tend to believe more and more that is a problem around the Pascal architecture and the 3D Vision driver.


@terintamel:
Tell you what!

We can experiment this quite easily and I know how;)
Do you have any of the OpenGL games that my wrapper supports? Best game to test would be DOOM (2016)
http://3dsurroundgaming.com/OpenGL3DVisionGames.html

Recently, I swapped the wrapper from 3D Vision Automatic to 3D Vision Direct. In 3D Automatic the performance was a bit lower than what I can do with 3D Vision Automatic.

I can provide the wrapper as using both 3D Vision Automatic and 3D Vision Direct and we can SBS to see if the Pascal GPU behaves differently between different code paths in 3D Vision driver.
If a driver bug is there, it should trigger hopefully:)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

Posted 09/15/2016 09:31 PM   
[quote="helifax"]Just did a quick test on my AWESOME 5 years OLD Alienware laptop: - Intel I5 @ 2.4 GHZ. It has 2 Real cores and 2 HT cores (simulated ones). It tends to pass as quad core if you query it, but is not a real quad;) - 8 GB of VRAM - AWESOME state of the art GT 555M GPU overclocked by 30% :)) - Kepler GPU. I did the tests on the following games (I will try to keep this simple): - Witcher 3. Awesome performance of 10 FPS in 3D (1680x1050), GPU running 99%, CPU running 98/76/66/66%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering. - Metro 2033. 30 FPS in 3D, GPU 99%, CPU running below 88% per core. No stutters. - Far Cry 3 / Blood Dragon. Again awesome 15 FPS in 3D. GPU 99%. CPU stressed out on all for cores to 93%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering. I only tested these cause I had to download them again. This was on Windows 10, no "Millennium" update, latest Nvidia drivers... I am at a loss... Surely the FPS was crap in 3D but I put everything on High on all games as I wanted to stress out. Those 10 FPS were very rounded. I actually measured the Frame latency in MSI and it was a constant number. I didn't see any stutters like in the video either, just round all over low FPS... I have no idea:-s Like the OP, this is a Kepler based GPU similar to his 660Ti. And like him, I don't see any issues... I tend to believe more and more that is a problem around the Pascal architecture and the 3D Vision driver.[/quote] That's a cool test with an old and weak by current standards CPU. But... set the resolution to low, and settings to low. I think the interesting question with that setup would be how the CPU performs as the bottleneck, not the whole system. Unload the GPU, force it over to CPU bottleneck.
helifax said:Just did a quick test on my AWESOME 5 years OLD Alienware laptop:

- Intel I5 @ 2.4 GHZ. It has 2 Real cores and 2 HT cores (simulated ones). It tends to pass as quad core if you query it, but is not a real quad;)
- 8 GB of VRAM
- AWESOME state of the art GT 555M GPU overclocked by 30% :)) - Kepler GPU.

I did the tests on the following games (I will try to keep this simple):

- Witcher 3. Awesome performance of 10 FPS in 3D (1680x1050), GPU running 99%, CPU running 98/76/66/66%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering.

- Metro 2033. 30 FPS in 3D, GPU 99%, CPU running below 88% per core. No stutters.

- Far Cry 3 / Blood Dragon. Again awesome 15 FPS in 3D. GPU 99%. CPU stressed out on all for cores to 93%. No stutters. Real 3D/CM makes no diff. to stuttering.

I only tested these cause I had to download them again.

This was on Windows 10, no "Millennium" update, latest Nvidia drivers...

I am at a loss... Surely the FPS was crap in 3D but I put everything on High on all games as I wanted to stress out. Those 10 FPS were very rounded. I actually measured the Frame latency in MSI and it was a constant number. I didn't see any stutters like in the video either, just round all over low FPS...

I have no idea:-s

Like the OP, this is a Kepler based GPU similar to his 660Ti. And like him, I don't see any issues...
I tend to believe more and more that is a problem around the Pascal architecture and the 3D Vision driver.

That's a cool test with an old and weak by current standards CPU.

But... set the resolution to low, and settings to low. I think the interesting question with that setup would be how the CPU performs as the bottleneck, not the whole system. Unload the GPU, force it over to CPU bottleneck.

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Posted 09/15/2016 10:09 PM   
Ok here are some quick tests I did based on bo3b's suggestions. I still have more to do. These tests were to compare trying to introduce a GPU bottleneck vs a CPU bottleneck. Far Cry 3 - 3dvision enabled * Set the game to highest resolution and turned on all features to the highest along with 8X MSAA. This put the GPU at a constant 99%. Game still stutters heavily where the GPU usage drops and framerates drop causing a very noticeable pause in the action. * I then did the reverse and lowered all the settings and resolution to the lowest and GPU usage was 60% or less. Still noticeable stutter with GPU usage dropping below 20% during the hitch * I then limited the game in riva tuner to 30fps and ran the game. Still get the same stutter except the frame rate drop during the hitch is not as noticeable because I am already at 30fps. However I still see at times less than 15% GPU usage during the hitch. 3dVision Disabled * I ran all the same tests at the same settings as above and could not cause it to hitch or stall at all. Arkham Origins - worse stuttering than FC3 3dvision enabled * Set the game to highest resolution and turned on all features to the highest along with 8X MSAA. This put the GPU at a constant 99%. Game still stutters heavily where the GPU usage drops and framerates drop causing a very noticeable pause in the action. * I then limited the game in riva tuner to 30fps and ran the game. Still get the same stutter and it is still really bad with framerates dropping to under 15fps with sub 8% GPU usage. 3dVision Disabled * I ran all the same tests at the same settings as above and could not cause it to hitch or stall at all.
Ok here are some quick tests I did based on bo3b's suggestions. I still have more to do.

These tests were to compare trying to introduce a GPU bottleneck vs a CPU bottleneck.

Far Cry 3 -
3dvision enabled
* Set the game to highest resolution and turned on all features to the highest along with 8X MSAA. This put the GPU at a constant 99%. Game still stutters heavily where the GPU usage drops and framerates drop causing a very noticeable pause in the action.
* I then did the reverse and lowered all the settings and resolution to the lowest and GPU usage was 60% or less. Still noticeable stutter with GPU usage dropping below 20% during the hitch
* I then limited the game in riva tuner to 30fps and ran the game. Still get the same stutter except the frame rate drop during the hitch is not as noticeable because I am already at 30fps. However I still see at times less than 15% GPU usage during the hitch.

3dVision Disabled
* I ran all the same tests at the same settings as above and could not cause it to hitch or stall at all.

Arkham Origins - worse stuttering than FC3
3dvision enabled
* Set the game to highest resolution and turned on all features to the highest along with 8X MSAA. This put the GPU at a constant 99%. Game still stutters heavily where the GPU usage drops and framerates drop causing a very noticeable pause in the action.
* I then limited the game in riva tuner to 30fps and ran the game. Still get the same stutter and it is still really bad with framerates dropping to under 15fps with sub 8% GPU usage.

3dVision Disabled
* I ran all the same tests at the same settings as above and could not cause it to hitch or stall at all.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
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G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
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Posted 09/15/2016 10:16 PM   
[quote="terintamel"]I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me.[/quote] In this case you are stressing the GPU, not the CPU, so the stutter goes away. In this game try disable AA, low some settings, lower the resolution, etc....the idea is to remove some load to the GPU and start to stress the CPU... you will probably start to see the stutter.
terintamel said:I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me.

In this case you are stressing the GPU, not the CPU, so the stutter goes away. In this game try disable AA, low some settings, lower the resolution, etc....the idea is to remove some load to the GPU and start to stress the CPU... you will probably start to see the stutter.

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Posted 09/15/2016 10:19 PM   
[quote="terintamel"][quote="DHR"]@terintamel 7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in [b]real 3D[/b] using community fix: * Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game. * Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always * Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU * Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU [/quote] I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me. I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.[/quote][quote="terintamel"][quote="DHR"]@terintamel 7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in [b]real 3D[/b] using community fix: * Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game. * Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always * Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU * Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU [/quote] I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me. I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.[/quote] I could not get Crysis 3 to launch. It just starts to try to load than exists with the fix installed. Is there still an issue with 3dmigoto and the latest Nvidia Win10 drivers? I tested the game however at maximum settings to get my GPU to run at 99-100% in the level "Welcome to the Jungle" which I seem to recall is a very intensive level. No matter what I could not get any stutter at all. Wish I could try it in true 3d as suggested to see if that makes a difference.
terintamel said:
DHR said:@terintamel


7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in real 3D using community fix:
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game.
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always
* Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU
* Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU



I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me.

I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.
terintamel said:
DHR said:@terintamel


7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in real 3D using community fix:
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game.
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always
* Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU
* Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU



I will try Crysis 3 this weekend in True 3d and see if I get any hard stutter or just low framerates. I am perfectly fine with low framerates as long at there is no stutter and it is at least above 30 fps. That is why I can play Deus Ex:Mankind Divided at High settings with all options ON in 3d because it keeps a steady 30 fps for me.

I just have to find out why some games give that heavy stutter where the whole game stalls and goes right back to normal.


I could not get Crysis 3 to launch. It just starts to try to load than exists with the fix installed. Is there still an issue with 3dmigoto and the latest Nvidia Win10 drivers?

I tested the game however at maximum settings to get my GPU to run at 99-100% in the level "Welcome to the Jungle" which I seem to recall is a very intensive level. No matter what I could not get any stutter at all. Wish I could try it in true 3d as suggested to see if that makes a difference.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 10:22 PM   
[i]bo3b said: "Our "3 core limit" idea might simply be that in 3D Vision Automatic, there is too much work for a single thread to do, and that it's actually single-core performance that we are seeing, where it cannot hand off work to other threads fast enough, and those other cores stall."[/i] That's my gut feeling too. It would be very interesting to see what happens in a game properly coded for DX12 (not just wrapped DX12 support for 'marketing').
bo3b said:

"Our "3 core limit" idea might simply be that in 3D Vision Automatic, there is too much work for a single thread to do, and that it's actually single-core performance that we are seeing, where it cannot hand off work to other threads fast enough, and those other cores stall."


That's my gut feeling too. It would be very interesting to see what happens in a game properly coded for DX12 (not just wrapped DX12 support for 'marketing').

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

Posted 09/15/2016 11:07 PM   
[quote="DHR"]@terintamel I also think is the CPU that is stressing too much with some games (the more CPU demanding ones). And also there are some games that are not CPU demanding, so you don't see the stutter or is very minimal. 6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode. 7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in [b]real 3D[/b] using community fix: * Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game. * Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always * Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU * Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU 9. If your wife is already starting to get angry....go and buy an intel CPU, you will save a lot of troubles with your wife and avoid those angry stares (and you in the other side looking through your 3D glasses).[/quote] I have to make a correction and update to a previous statement. I said that the new Deus Ex did not stutter in 3d mode. I made that statement because I believed any pauses/hitches I got were because I ran in 3d will all settings enabled and on High or Very High causing my GPU to run at a constant 99%. However after some tests influenced by what I am learning here I have some new insight on this game. Not sure what it all means though. I loaded up the game and turned everything off or to low if off was not an option. This lessened the GPU load from 99%. I ran around the city of Prague (Hub area) and to my surprise saw the same stutter I got with the GPU at 99%. I then turned off 3d in game (3d vision enabled) and my FPS was stuttery with fps between 42-55 while running through the city with GPU load bouncing betwee 30-40%. As a test I decided to run the game again at these setting except with 3dvision driver off. To my surprise my FPS increased to 60-70fps with no stutter and a constant GPU load around 60-70%. This could be in line with the ~15% overhead you guys say the 3dvision driver adds, but the stutter that is introduced is again the main problem. Does this still lean towards my CPU being the issue or maybe something in the 3dvision driver (w/Pascal cards?) that is exposed more when using my type of CPU? Does it point to something else?
DHR said:@terintamel
I also think is the CPU that is stressing too much with some games (the more CPU demanding ones). And also there are some games that are not CPU demanding, so you don't see the stutter or is very minimal.

6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode.


7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in real 3D using community fix:
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game.
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always
* Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU
* Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU


9. If your wife is already starting to get angry....go and buy an intel CPU, you will save a lot of troubles with your wife and avoid those angry stares (and you in the other side looking through your 3D glasses).


I have to make a correction and update to a previous statement. I said that the new Deus Ex did not stutter in 3d mode. I made that statement because I believed any pauses/hitches I got were because I ran in 3d will all settings enabled and on High or Very High causing my GPU to run at a constant 99%. However after some tests influenced by what I am learning here I have some new insight on this game. Not sure what it all means though.

I loaded up the game and turned everything off or to low if off was not an option. This lessened the GPU load from 99%.

I ran around the city of Prague (Hub area) and to my surprise saw the same stutter I got with the GPU at 99%. I then turned off 3d in game (3d vision enabled) and my FPS was stuttery with fps between 42-55 while running through the city with GPU load bouncing betwee 30-40%.

As a test I decided to run the game again at these setting except with 3dvision driver off. To my surprise my FPS increased to 60-70fps with no stutter and a constant GPU load around 60-70%. This could be in line with the ~15% overhead you guys say the 3dvision driver adds, but the stutter that is introduced is again the main problem.

Does this still lean towards my CPU being the issue or maybe something in the 3dvision driver (w/Pascal cards?) that is exposed more when using my type of CPU? Does it point to something else?

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 11:09 PM   
I honestly don't know what to say here... I think I said in a previous post, that I also run an AMD CPU with 3D Vision and had HUGE issues: stuttering, freezing, crashing, not loading, not detecting 3D Screen, not synching properly between glasses & screen... And this was back in 2010 ... Since I ditched the AMD platform and went Intel all the way + Nvidia + 3D Vision I had basically zero issues. And is funny really... cause I always loved SLI (and SLI was developed and introduced on AMD platform a long time ago ^_^). What was a driver issue, I could reproduce and Nvidia got it fixed... Problem is, Andrew is not with Nvidia 3D Vision anymore or else he would have asked you to ship your PC;) ^_^ For some weird reason, I am not inclined to put the blame on the AMD CPU, but actually on the motherboard chipset/controller. I think there is where the problem actually lies. What motherboard do you have exactly?;) PS: Sorry for thinking out loud;) Edit: Found it, sorry: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3. Rev1.0? they go from Rev 1.0 to Rev 5.0 :-s EDIT2: IS THIS YOUR MOTHERBOAR? [url]http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4672#sp[/url] IF so... that is ancient.... :-s (and by ancient I mean both the north + south bridge controllers...) That I expect will add a lot of instability in your system... but is hard to tell unless you try a new mobo with your config... oh the joy... of making everything work together :(
I honestly don't know what to say here...

I think I said in a previous post, that I also run an AMD CPU with 3D Vision and had HUGE issues: stuttering, freezing, crashing, not loading, not detecting 3D Screen, not synching properly between glasses & screen...
And this was back in 2010 ... Since I ditched the AMD platform and went Intel all the way + Nvidia + 3D Vision I had basically zero issues.

And is funny really... cause I always loved SLI (and SLI was developed and introduced on AMD platform a long time ago ^_^).

What was a driver issue, I could reproduce and Nvidia got it fixed... Problem is, Andrew is not with Nvidia 3D Vision anymore or else he would have asked you to ship your PC;) ^_^

For some weird reason, I am not inclined to put the blame on the AMD CPU, but actually on the motherboard chipset/controller. I think there is where the problem actually lies.
What motherboard do you have exactly?;)

PS: Sorry for thinking out loud;)

Edit: Found it, sorry: Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3. Rev1.0? they go from Rev 1.0 to Rev 5.0 :-s

EDIT2: IS THIS YOUR MOTHERBOAR? http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4672#sp

IF so... that is ancient.... :-s (and by ancient I mean both the north + south bridge controllers...)
That I expect will add a lot of instability in your system... but is hard to tell unless you try a new mobo with your config... oh the joy... of making everything work together :(

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
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- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
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Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

Posted 09/15/2016 11:26 PM   
[quote="RAGEdemon"] Friend, to be frank, you seem to have a good job. You obviously place great value on your gaming time. Might I suggest that you invest in yourself, your happiness, and the child inside yourself who always wanted more than a mediocre experience, and just go and buy yourself a 6700k with a Titan XP. The cost of this setup will be a fraction of your wages, and you will have a far better gaming experience. If you will allow me to boldly state something: if your wife truly cares for you, she will not only understand this, but will actively encourage it. You slave away every day, and for what? You deserve this. [/quote] Part of the problem is I am also a semi-harcore Transformers collector so a lot of my "disposable" income goes into that as well as my Computer/Playstation. That is why I have to be selective on what I spend and how much. Trade off is sometimes I get lower end PC components so I can buy the latest Transformer figure. Not to get too far off topic but here is what I mean. [url]http://imgur.com/a/nCr0R[/url] [url]http://imgur.com/a/bigHO[/url]
RAGEdemon said:
Friend, to be frank, you seem to have a good job. You obviously place great value on your gaming time. Might I suggest that you invest in yourself, your happiness, and the child inside yourself who always wanted more than a mediocre experience, and just go and buy yourself a 6700k with a Titan XP. The cost of this setup will be a fraction of your wages, and you will have a far better gaming experience. If you will allow me to boldly state something: if your wife truly cares for you, she will not only understand this, but will actively encourage it. You slave away every day, and for what? You deserve this.


Part of the problem is I am also a semi-harcore Transformers collector so a lot of my "disposable" income goes into that as well as my Computer/Playstation. That is why I have to be selective on what I spend and how much. Trade off is sometimes I get lower end PC components so I can buy the latest Transformer figure.

Not to get too far off topic but here is what I mean.
http://imgur.com/a/nCr0R
http://imgur.com/a/bigHO

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 11:27 PM   
[quote="helifax"]I honestly don't know what to say here... I think I said in a previous post, that I also run an AMD CPU with 3D Vision and had HUGE issues: stuttering, freezing, crashing, not loading, not detecting 3D Screen, not synching properly between glasses & screen... And this was back in 2010 ... Since I ditched the AMD platform and went Intel all the way + Nvidia + 3D Vision I had basically zero issues. What was a driver issue, I could reproduce and Nvidia got it fixed... Problem is, Andrew is not with Nvidia 3D Vision anymore or else he would have asked you to ship your PC;) ^_^ For some weird reason, I am not inclined to put the blame on the AMD CPU, but actually on the motherboard chipset/controller. I think there is where the problem actually lies. What motherboard do you have exactly?;) PS: Sorry for thinking out loud;)[/quote] Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0 [url]http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4672#ov[/url]
helifax said:I honestly don't know what to say here...

I think I said in a previous post, that I also run an AMD CPU with 3D Vision and had HUGE issues: stuttering, freezing, crashing, not loading, not detecting 3D Screen, not synching properly between glasses & screen...
And this was back in 2010 ... Since I ditched the AMD platform and went Intel all the way + Nvidia + 3D Vision I had basically zero issues.

What was a driver issue, I could reproduce and Nvidia got it fixed... Problem is, Andrew is not with Nvidia 3D Vision anymore or else he would have asked you to ship your PC;) ^_^

For some weird reason, I am not inclined to put the blame on the AMD CPU, but actually on the motherboard chipset/controller. I think there is where the problem actually lies.
What motherboard do you have exactly?;)

PS: Sorry for thinking out loud;)

Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4672#ov

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 11:29 PM   
[quote="terintamel"]Also I know @helifax and @bo3b has seen them but @RAGEdemon/@DHR have you seen my videos I posted in the other thread that show what my stutter looks like? I tried my best to capture the stuttering but I was recording with a cell phone in one hand and a gamepad in the other. [url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/961616/3d-vision/stuttering-low-fps-in-3dvision-with-only-certain-games/post/4965878/#4965878[/url] Posts 30,36,37.[/quote] I just saw your videos mate. Through all my experiences of building my own systems and doing intricate tests, that's a CPU bottleneck if ever I saw one. 2 games which are extremely heavy on CPU are Fallout 4 and ARMA. I bet these will be a stuttering mess if you load them up. Also, look at what you pasted a few posts prior in that thread, and my calculation/conclusion in GREEN below: 35 FPS 47% GPU usage Core 1 - 55 Core 2 - 40 Core 3 - 49 Core 4 - 39 Core 5 - 30 Core 6 - 19 Core 7 - 16 Core 8 - 60 [color="green"]Average = 38.5% usage per core[/color] Now same except 3d off in game, but still on in drivers 88 FPS 49% GPU usage Core 1 - 60 Core 2 - 62 Core 3 - 59 Core 4 - 53 Core 5 - 48 Core 6 - 32 Core 7 - 32 Core 8 - 80 [color="green"]Average = 53.25% usage per core.[/color] In conclusion, again, you have replicated my results on your system. Your CPU cores stop being utilised properly when 3D Vision is activated, which destroys your FPS. This also manifests itself in lower GPU usage. Remember here that 3D Vision takes 2x the power, so your GPU usage should be double in 3D vision compared to toggled off. It is instead about the same, hence why you are getting half the FPS in 3D vs 2D. I thank you for inadvertently corroborating my results. I know you don't want to hear that we don't know how to fix this issue or whether it is even fixable at all. All we know is that a better IPC is the best that we can aim for at the moment. The tragic long term effect is that this problem will get worse exponentially. So far, PC CPUs have been many times faster than console CPUs, which almost all games are designed for nowadays. This means that PCs have been able to brute force their way past this limit in the past. Unfortunately, IPC has only been going up ~5% every 1.5 years over the last 7 years or so, and CPU speed has been capped at 5GHz for quite some time now. What this means is that newer consoles such as the XBox Scorpio and the PS4 Pro and later gen consoles, will use modern CPUs which will be fast enough to compete with PC CPUs. As time progresses, we will no longer be able to brute force the half core bottleneck. The emergence is now, and it will get exponentially worse from this point onwards. I don't think nVidia will revamp their driver just for us - they already consider 3D Vision legacy. So, what now?
terintamel said:Also I know @helifax and @bo3b has seen them but @RAGEdemon/@DHR have you seen my videos I posted in the other thread that show what my stutter looks like? I tried my best to capture the stuttering but I was recording with a cell phone in one hand and a gamepad in the other.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/961616/3d-vision/stuttering-low-fps-in-3dvision-with-only-certain-games/post/4965878/#4965878 Posts 30,36,37.


I just saw your videos mate.

Through all my experiences of building my own systems and doing intricate tests, that's a CPU bottleneck if ever I saw one.

2 games which are extremely heavy on CPU are Fallout 4 and ARMA. I bet these will be a stuttering mess if you load them up.

Also, look at what you pasted a few posts prior in that thread, and my calculation/conclusion in GREEN below:

35 FPS
47% GPU usage
Core 1 - 55
Core 2 - 40
Core 3 - 49
Core 4 - 39
Core 5 - 30
Core 6 - 19
Core 7 - 16
Core 8 - 60

Average = 38.5% usage per core



Now same except 3d off in game, but still on in drivers
88 FPS
49% GPU usage
Core 1 - 60
Core 2 - 62
Core 3 - 59
Core 4 - 53
Core 5 - 48
Core 6 - 32
Core 7 - 32
Core 8 - 80

Average = 53.25% usage per core.


In conclusion, again, you have replicated my results on your system. Your CPU cores stop being utilised properly when 3D Vision is activated, which destroys your FPS. This also manifests itself in lower GPU usage. Remember here that 3D Vision takes 2x the power, so your GPU usage should be double in 3D vision compared to toggled off. It is instead about the same, hence why you are getting half the FPS in 3D vs 2D.

I thank you for inadvertently corroborating my results. I know you don't want to hear that we don't know how to fix this issue or whether it is even fixable at all. All we know is that a better IPC is the best that we can aim for at the moment.

The tragic long term effect is that this problem will get worse exponentially.

So far, PC CPUs have been many times faster than console CPUs, which almost all games are designed for nowadays. This means that PCs have been able to brute force their way past this limit in the past.

Unfortunately, IPC has only been going up ~5% every 1.5 years over the last 7 years or so, and CPU speed has been capped at 5GHz for quite some time now.

What this means is that newer consoles such as the XBox Scorpio and the PS4 Pro and later gen consoles, will use modern CPUs which will be fast enough to compete with PC CPUs.

As time progresses, we will no longer be able to brute force the half core bottleneck. The emergence is now, and it will get exponentially worse from this point onwards. I don't think nVidia will revamp their driver just for us - they already consider 3D Vision legacy.

So, what now?

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

Posted 09/15/2016 11:37 PM   
  8 / 14    
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