Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
[img]https://cdn.pcpartpicker.com/static/forever/images/userbuild/193463.76e6f961dcd342c3b2a8adbb327cf75c.1600.jpg[/img]
Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
[quote="tygeezy"]I found a guy with a somewhat similar build as me. It looks like he mounted at the top and did install intake fans at the bottom.
[img]https://cdn.pcpartpicker.com/static/forever/images/userbuild/193918.1ce766e8861a6e01b093b5bd82484b66.1600.jpg[/img][/quote]
That's a nice setup.
If I were setting this up, I'd actually make all of the fans except the large one on the back input fans.
1) Radiator on top should draw cold in air, blow into case. CPU radiator should always use cold air if you want to maximum your OC. And as the video notes, you can clean the inputs easier, if you put the fans on the other side of the radiator, and pull through.
2) Fans on bottom of case should pull cold air in from the floor, to blow directly onto the GPU. This will also optimize your OC for the GPU.
3) I'd also set the front fans to pull in cold air, all three of them. They can blow across the motherboard VRMs, which will help OC. With only hot air from the top radiator, the VRMs will otherwise get toasty.
4) Back large fan would be the sole output fan. This keeps postive pressure in the case.
Top radiator counts as maybe 1 fan, because there is high resistance through the radiator. 6:1 ratio is probably high, so it would maybe make sense to put bottom fans into output for a 4:3 ratio, but I still think cold air to the FTW is more important. And, it is also outputting some air through the back.
All these shenanigans really only matter for OC. For normal operation it won't make any difference how it's setup.
tygeezy said:I found a guy with a somewhat similar build as me. It looks like he mounted at the top and did install intake fans at the bottom.
That's a nice setup.
If I were setting this up, I'd actually make all of the fans except the large one on the back input fans.
1) Radiator on top should draw cold in air, blow into case. CPU radiator should always use cold air if you want to maximum your OC. And as the video notes, you can clean the inputs easier, if you put the fans on the other side of the radiator, and pull through.
2) Fans on bottom of case should pull cold air in from the floor, to blow directly onto the GPU. This will also optimize your OC for the GPU.
3) I'd also set the front fans to pull in cold air, all three of them. They can blow across the motherboard VRMs, which will help OC. With only hot air from the top radiator, the VRMs will otherwise get toasty.
4) Back large fan would be the sole output fan. This keeps postive pressure in the case.
Top radiator counts as maybe 1 fan, because there is high resistance through the radiator. 6:1 ratio is probably high, so it would maybe make sense to put bottom fans into output for a 4:3 ratio, but I still think cold air to the FTW is more important. And, it is also outputting some air through the back.
All these shenanigans really only matter for OC. For normal operation it won't make any difference how it's setup.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
By the way, I have 4 dogs. Three giant great pyrenees and one small pekingese. So dust and hair is an issue. Although we do vacuum a lot.
[img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17156193_10105321392084433_5371718668355802437_n.jpg?oh=86315af6b487efce73dd543a0a8496d6&oe=59335C11[/img]
[quote="tygeezy"]Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
[img]https://cdn.pcpartpicker.com/static/forever/images/userbuild/193463.76e6f961dcd342c3b2a8adbb327cf75c.1600.jpg[/img][/quote]
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
With the bottom of the three blowing in cold air to feed the GPU, I wouldn't worry too much about the missing bottom fans.
And keeping the large output fan on back.
As RageDemon notes, you can test different scenarios to see if you note any difference.
With 3 big ol' shaggy dogs, I'd definitely make sure that the input fans have easy to clean filters. And go with the seemingly too high 4:1 ratio of input to output. It's not just the hair, it's also the dander you want to keep out.
tygeezy said:Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
With the bottom of the three blowing in cold air to feed the GPU, I wouldn't worry too much about the missing bottom fans.
And keeping the large output fan on back.
As RageDemon notes, you can test different scenarios to see if you note any difference.
With 3 big ol' shaggy dogs, I'd definitely make sure that the input fans have easy to clean filters. And go with the seemingly too high 4:1 ratio of input to output. It's not just the hair, it's also the dander you want to keep out.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
[quote="bo3b"][quote="tygeezy"]Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
[img]https://cdn.pcpartpicker.com/static/forever/images/userbuild/193463.76e6f961dcd342c3b2a8adbb327cf75c.1600.jpg[/img][/quote]
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
And keeping the large output fan on back.[/quote]So mount the fans on top of the radiator to the roof of my case setting the fans to intake? Then have three front fans in-taking with 1 exhaust out the back?
Or mount the fans underneath the radiator from the roof? mounting from underneath the radiator to the roof makes it easier to clean the dust it would seem.
My pc will be under a desk, so it might not have the best air to pull from top.
tygeezy said:Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
And keeping the large output fan on back.
So mount the fans on top of the radiator to the roof of my case setting the fans to intake? Then have three front fans in-taking with 1 exhaust out the back?
Or mount the fans underneath the radiator from the roof? mounting from underneath the radiator to the roof makes it easier to clean the dust it would seem.
My pc will be under a desk, so it might not have the best air to pull from top.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]It certainly looks good, and it's 5 in vs 3 out which means ++ air pressure inside the case.
I have 2 fans at the bottom, and so can tell you that they are indeed a great help cooling the 2 graphics cards.
I think the best thing to do would be to experiment when you get it. With the system in hand, you might be able to think of configurations which are not occurring to us at the moment, for example possibly mounting it outside the case on one of the the wide sides :)[/quote]I actually read further down and he set his bottom fans to exhaust because of having dogs + carpet. I would think that is what the dust filter is for. Maybe it doesn't do that good of a job? If it's on the ground I would think it could properly exhaust all the hot air built up in the case.
RAGEdemon said:It certainly looks good, and it's 5 in vs 3 out which means ++ air pressure inside the case.
I have 2 fans at the bottom, and so can tell you that they are indeed a great help cooling the 2 graphics cards.
I think the best thing to do would be to experiment when you get it. With the system in hand, you might be able to think of configurations which are not occurring to us at the moment, for example possibly mounting it outside the case on one of the the wide sides :)
I actually read further down and he set his bottom fans to exhaust because of having dogs + carpet. I would think that is what the dust filter is for. Maybe it doesn't do that good of a job? If it's on the ground I would think it could properly exhaust all the hot air built up in the case.
You scienced the crap out of that one bo3b, well done!
Unfortunately, I don't believe it is correct. I was going through the calculation for academic reasons, and got a different answer.
Out of interest:
g = 9.8
B = 3.43 x10^-3
Ts = 80
Ti = 20
L = 0.1
v = 15.11 x10^-6
Figures obtained from here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
Thus: Gr = (9.8 * 3.43 x10^-3 * (80-20) * 0.1^3)/(15.11 x10^-6)^2 ≈ 9,000,000
That article speaking about the Reynolds number also seems to be suspect.
We have:
[img]https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/bb12081d939ee0401d7dc37a7182828e95ab2a0b[/img]
u is the velocity of the fluid with respect to the object (m/s) = 3m/s for 100 CFM 140mm AIO fan.
http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow-unit-conversion
ν is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid (m2/s) = same as the Gr calculation: 15.11 x10^-6
L is a characteristic linear dimension, presumably 0.1m in this case
So, Re = (3 * 0.1)/15.11 x10^-6 = 20,000
Re^2 = 40,000,000
So, Gr/Re^2 = 9,000,000 / 40,000,000 = 0.225
If the ratio was 1, then both convection and forced air would have equal impact i.e. 50%. Since the Ratio is 0.225, then convection seems to have an impact of 11.25%.
This is not taking into account the 10x multiplication of the fins you suggested, nor does it taken into account the slowed down effect of air as it hits the radiator (air coming out of the other side is significantly slower).
I don't think either of us fully understands the deep mechanisms that these equations deal with. We could be out by many orders of magnitude and not even know it because we don't have an intuition for these numbers - I have a hunch that we may be approaching it completely wrong :)
ν is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid (m2/s) = same as the Gr calculation: 15.11 x10^-6
L is a characteristic linear dimension, presumably 0.1m in this case
So, Re = (3 * 0.1)/15.11 x10^-6 = 20,000
Re^2 = 40,000,000
So, Gr/Re^2 = 9,000,000 / 40,000,000 = 0.225
If the ratio was 1, then both convection and forced air would have equal impact i.e. 50%. Since the Ratio is 0.225, then convection seems to have an impact of 11.25%.
This is not taking into account the 10x multiplication of the fins you suggested, nor does it taken into account the slowed down effect of air as it hits the radiator (air coming out of the other side is significantly slower).
I don't think either of us fully understands the deep mechanisms that these equations deal with. We could be out by many orders of magnitude and not even know it because we don't have an intuition for these numbers - I have a hunch that we may be approaching it completely wrong :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="tygeezy"]I actually read further down and he set his bottom fans to exhaust because of having dogs + carpet. I would think that is what the dust filter is for. Maybe it doesn't do that good of a job? If it's on the ground I would think it could properly exhaust all the hot air built up in the case.[/quote]
I can't say mate. Nice dogs btw! Generally, the coolest air in the room is at the bottom - it would be a shame to not have the cool air being injected into the case, and the case exhausting from the top or top-rear.
If you are at all interested in what I have done, then my setup is a little different - my 2 fans are actually at the side of the case at the bottom - custom design after taking a hack-saw to it. It is designed to force air in between the closely spaced SLi cards. I have cut a hole in the bottom of the case too to allow the bottom card to get direct fresh air. Both the 2 fans at the side and the hole at the bottom have air filters. The fans turn on when the GPU temp reached 50 degrees, otherwise they are off to prevent micro-dust coming in through the filters.
I think we might be over-thinking it. You have got a great cooler and a fantastic case. I don't think cooling is going to be an issue at all.
Giving you an example, I am at 1.56V on all cores @ 5.1 when benchmarking as you know, and the temp never reaches >85 degrees.
What will matter the most is the quality of the chip and the de-lid. I would recommend it - it only looks sketchy but it's quite straight forward. In fact, I repasted my GFX cards too with the same compound - 5 degrees difference and I can OC higher.
tygeezy said:I actually read further down and he set his bottom fans to exhaust because of having dogs + carpet. I would think that is what the dust filter is for. Maybe it doesn't do that good of a job? If it's on the ground I would think it could properly exhaust all the hot air built up in the case.
I can't say mate. Nice dogs btw! Generally, the coolest air in the room is at the bottom - it would be a shame to not have the cool air being injected into the case, and the case exhausting from the top or top-rear.
If you are at all interested in what I have done, then my setup is a little different - my 2 fans are actually at the side of the case at the bottom - custom design after taking a hack-saw to it. It is designed to force air in between the closely spaced SLi cards. I have cut a hole in the bottom of the case too to allow the bottom card to get direct fresh air. Both the 2 fans at the side and the hole at the bottom have air filters. The fans turn on when the GPU temp reached 50 degrees, otherwise they are off to prevent micro-dust coming in through the filters.
I think we might be over-thinking it. You have got a great cooler and a fantastic case. I don't think cooling is going to be an issue at all.
Giving you an example, I am at 1.56V on all cores @ 5.1 when benchmarking as you know, and the temp never reaches >85 degrees.
What will matter the most is the quality of the chip and the de-lid. I would recommend it - it only looks sketchy but it's quite straight forward. In fact, I repasted my GFX cards too with the same compound - 5 degrees difference and I can OC higher.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="tygeezy"][quote="bo3b"][quote="tygeezy"]Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?[/quote]Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
And keeping the large output fan on back.[/quote]So mount the fans on top of the radiator to the roof of my case setting the fans to intake? Then have three front fans in-taking with 1 exhaust out the back?
Or mount the fans underneath the radiator from the roof? mounting from underneath the radiator to the roof makes it easier to clean the dust it would seem.
My pc will be under a desk, so it might not have the best air to pull from top.[/quote]
I'd put it with roof->radiator->fans.
With fans pulling through the radiator for cold air. That way you don't get build up on the surface of the radiator, between the fans and the radiator like Linux Tips showed. You can have a good filter on top.
I wouldn't worry about limited air flow under the desk unless it's like 2" or less. It's hard to pull air through a radiator so the input draw will be less than normal. Be sure to use High Pressure fans, not high airflow.
tygeezy said:Here's a built I can do with the default fans that come with my case. I can't tell if he is intaking through the front and exhausting through the roof and back or in-taking from the roof and back and exhausting out the front. Bob, do you have a suggestion for my radiator mount?
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
And keeping the large output fan on back.
So mount the fans on top of the radiator to the roof of my case setting the fans to intake? Then have three front fans in-taking with 1 exhaust out the back?
Or mount the fans underneath the radiator from the roof? mounting from underneath the radiator to the roof makes it easier to clean the dust it would seem.
My pc will be under a desk, so it might not have the best air to pull from top.
I'd put it with roof->radiator->fans.
With fans pulling through the radiator for cold air. That way you don't get build up on the surface of the radiator, between the fans and the radiator like Linux Tips showed. You can have a good filter on top.
I wouldn't worry about limited air flow under the desk unless it's like 2" or less. It's hard to pull air through a radiator so the input draw will be less than normal. Be sure to use High Pressure fans, not high airflow.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Thanks Rage, we love our dogs! Anyway, I think I got it. This picture from corsairs website gave me the idea.
[img]http://www.corsair.com/en-us/~/media/5DA96E36F11D4175B928A6F1B4A4CE81.ashx?w=780[/img]
I would still do it differently though and I know this is a different case, but it has a lot of similarities. So, I can take my radiator and mount it in the front, but the bottom front; since it only takes up two fan slots. That top fan slot can blow cold air towards the cpu. I can then take one of the front fans that has no place anymore because of the radiator and put it on the bottom so that it blows towards the gpu. I can then set my top fans to intake, and just have one exhaust out the back? What are your guys thoughts on that? I'm not sure if my case comes with a dust filter for the top since most people use it as exhaust. Also, by in-taking into the radiator from the front wouldn't that cause a lot of dust buildup underneath the fans? It does have a dust filter, how much do they help?
So i'd drop the radiator down a notch from the picture below and then have that bottom fan op top pointing towards the cpu
[img]https://cdn.pcpartpicker.com/static/forever/images/userbuild/193463.76e6f961dcd342c3b2a8adbb327cf75c.1600.jpg[/img]
Thanks Rage, we love our dogs! Anyway, I think I got it. This picture from corsairs website gave me the idea.
I would still do it differently though and I know this is a different case, but it has a lot of similarities. So, I can take my radiator and mount it in the front, but the bottom front; since it only takes up two fan slots. That top fan slot can blow cold air towards the cpu. I can then take one of the front fans that has no place anymore because of the radiator and put it on the bottom so that it blows towards the gpu. I can then set my top fans to intake, and just have one exhaust out the back? What are your guys thoughts on that? I'm not sure if my case comes with a dust filter for the top since most people use it as exhaust. Also, by in-taking into the radiator from the front wouldn't that cause a lot of dust buildup underneath the fans? It does have a dust filter, how much do they help?
So i'd drop the radiator down a notch from the picture below and then have that bottom fan op top pointing towards the cpu
Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNAMxZgvves
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Edit:
Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]You scienced the crap out of that one bo3b, well done!
Unfortunately, I don't believe it is correct. I was going through the calculation for academic reasons, and got a different answer.
Out of interest:
g = 9.8
B = 3.43 x10^-3
Ts = 80
Ti = 20
L = 0.1
v = 15.11 x10^-6
Figures obtained from here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
Thus: Gr = (9.8 * 3.43 x10^-3 * (80-20) * 0.1^3)/(15.11 x10^-6)^2 ≈ 9,000,000
That article speaking about the Reynolds number also seems to be suspect.
We have:
[img]https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/bb12081d939ee0401d7dc37a7182828e95ab2a0b[/img]
u is the velocity of the fluid with respect to the object (m/s) = 3m/s for 100 CFM 140mm AIO fan.
http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow-unit-conversion
ν is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid (m2/s) = same as the Gr calculation: 15.11 x10^-6
L is a characteristic linear dimension, presumably 0.1m in this case
So, Re = (3 * 0.1)/15.11 x10^-6 = 20,000
Re^2 = 40,000,000
So, Gr/Re^2 = 9,000,000 / 40,000,000 = 0.225
If the ratio was 1, then both convection and forced air would have equal impact i.e. 50%. Since the Ratio is 0.225, then convection seems to have an impact of 11.25%.
This is not taking into account the 10x multiplication of the fins you suggested, nor does it taken into account the slowed down effect of air as it hits the radiator (air coming out of the other side is significantly slower).
I don't think either of us fully understands the deep mechanisms that these equations deal with. We could be out by many orders of magnitude and not even know it because we don't have an intuition for these numbers - I have a hunch that we may be approaching it completely wrong :)[/quote]
Nicely reviewed! I was worried that my units were off, and I think you clarified that was true.
I was using the Engineering Toolbox numbers, but made the error of neglecting their table headers which dramatically changes the v.
Looking more carefully, I think your 9 million Grashof number seems pretty right.
On the Reynolds number, I already burned my available time looking at Greshof numbers, and was using the shortcut from that page. Not at all sure that is right.
Using the formula approach: [img]https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/bb12081d939ee0401d7dc37a7182828e95ab2a0b[/img]
u=0.52 m/s
Actual Corsair fan: [url]http://www.corsair.com/en-us/air-series-af140-quiet-edition-high-airflow-140mm-fan[/url] Giving 67.8 CFM.
Using the unit conversion tool: [url]http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow-unit-conversion[/url] With 67.8 CFM and 140 mm circular duct.
L=0.2 m
Hard to say, but 20 cm doesn't seem unreasonable for 'width' or 'diameter'. Maybe 20 cm for an ATX case like in the above pictures.
v=15.11x10^-6 m^2/s
From: [url]http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html[/url]
Which comes to (0.52 * 0.2)/15.11x10^-6 ≈ 7000
Different order of magnitude for your 20,000 number. The big difference here is our u numbers. Your value of 3 is for 400 CFM, mine is for a single fan at 67.8 CFM. With 4 or 5 fives that's about right.
[img]https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/e613fdccb49dfe29e44d3622bc6b60f51e9fb1ab[/img]
So... Gr=9x10^6 and Re^2=49x10^6 with a ratio of 0.18
(In your example, your Re^2 is wrong, it should be 400,000,000. Giving a ratio of 0.02)
So we are maybe somewhere in the range of 0.2 to 0.02 for the ratio. For a single fan, versus maybe 4 fans. With a single fan, these numbers suggest that there would possibly be a natural convection impact, but for 4 fans, it would fall into the too small range.
I also have to agree that these formulas may not be the right ones for this scenario. Lots of engineering formulas only work in specific scenarios, and I also can't be certain they apply here. There is some discussion about compressible fluids, which air clearly is compressible.
In particular, these formulas are assuming laminar flow, and I'm not at all sure that'd be expected here, although the numbers seem to be below the points where we'd expect chaotic flow.
These formulas do give you some insight into what matters, even if we are off on numbers. Simplifying the formula, we remove the v^2 and get
ratio = gB(T-T)L/u^2
So, it's roughly dependent upon the temperature delta, the Length, and the velocity.
My short takeaway is that I still think natural convection is not worth worrying about in case flow.
It's much more important to get cold air to the right spots, because that delta between temperatures is important.
ν is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid (m2/s) = same as the Gr calculation: 15.11 x10^-6
L is a characteristic linear dimension, presumably 0.1m in this case
So, Re = (3 * 0.1)/15.11 x10^-6 = 20,000
Re^2 = 40,000,000
So, Gr/Re^2 = 9,000,000 / 40,000,000 = 0.225
If the ratio was 1, then both convection and forced air would have equal impact i.e. 50%. Since the Ratio is 0.225, then convection seems to have an impact of 11.25%.
This is not taking into account the 10x multiplication of the fins you suggested, nor does it taken into account the slowed down effect of air as it hits the radiator (air coming out of the other side is significantly slower).
I don't think either of us fully understands the deep mechanisms that these equations deal with. We could be out by many orders of magnitude and not even know it because we don't have an intuition for these numbers - I have a hunch that we may be approaching it completely wrong :)
Nicely reviewed! I was worried that my units were off, and I think you clarified that was true.
I was using the Engineering Toolbox numbers, but made the error of neglecting their table headers which dramatically changes the v.
Looking more carefully, I think your 9 million Grashof number seems pretty right.
On the Reynolds number, I already burned my available time looking at Greshof numbers, and was using the shortcut from that page. Not at all sure that is right.
Different order of magnitude for your 20,000 number. The big difference here is our u numbers. Your value of 3 is for 400 CFM, mine is for a single fan at 67.8 CFM. With 4 or 5 fives that's about right.
So... Gr=9x10^6 and Re^2=49x10^6 with a ratio of 0.18
(In your example, your Re^2 is wrong, it should be 400,000,000. Giving a ratio of 0.02)
So we are maybe somewhere in the range of 0.2 to 0.02 for the ratio. For a single fan, versus maybe 4 fans. With a single fan, these numbers suggest that there would possibly be a natural convection impact, but for 4 fans, it would fall into the too small range.
I also have to agree that these formulas may not be the right ones for this scenario. Lots of engineering formulas only work in specific scenarios, and I also can't be certain they apply here. There is some discussion about compressible fluids, which air clearly is compressible.
In particular, these formulas are assuming laminar flow, and I'm not at all sure that'd be expected here, although the numbers seem to be below the points where we'd expect chaotic flow.
These formulas do give you some insight into what matters, even if we are off on numbers. Simplifying the formula, we remove the v^2 and get
ratio = gB(T-T)L/u^2
So, it's roughly dependent upon the temperature delta, the Length, and the velocity.
My short takeaway is that I still think natural convection is not worth worrying about in case flow.
It's much more important to get cold air to the right spots, because that delta between temperatures is important.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
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[quote="tygeezy"]Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA Edit:[/quote]
Took a look at the video, and I really like that he actually did the experiment instead of just talking about it like a lot of Tubers. I'd always defer to actual experiments over math, the real world is... messy.
For this one, the important part is not that it's up top, it's that it was using hot air to cool the CPU. If he had flipped his top radiator fans to pull air in from the outside, I'm nearly certain he'd get the same result.
This is similar to what I said before, which is that what matters is that the CPU radiator and GPU both get fresh cold air. (And that the motherboard VRMs get at least a bit of overflow.)
tygeezy said:Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
Took a look at the video, and I really like that he actually did the experiment instead of just talking about it like a lot of Tubers. I'd always defer to actual experiments over math, the real world is... messy.
For this one, the important part is not that it's up top, it's that it was using hot air to cool the CPU. If he had flipped his top radiator fans to pull air in from the outside, I'm nearly certain he'd get the same result.
This is similar to what I said before, which is that what matters is that the CPU radiator and GPU both get fresh cold air. (And that the motherboard VRMs get at least a bit of overflow.)
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SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
[quote="bo3b"][quote="tygeezy"]Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA Edit:[/quote]
Took a look at the video, and I really like that he actually did the experiment instead of just talking about it like a lot of Tubers. I'd always defer to actual experiments over math, the real world is... messy.
For this one, the important part is not that it's up top, it's that it was using hot air to cool the CPU. If he had flipped his top radiator fans to pull air in from the outside, I'm nearly certain he'd get the same result.
This is similar to what I said before, which is that what matters is that the CPU radiator and GPU both get fresh cold air. (And that the motherboard VRMs get at least a bit of overflow.)[/quote]So based on this video are we leaning towards front mounted intake for radiator? Based on me having an open card I'm thinking yes. Unless we really do think that putting the radiator up top with the fans up top pulling in the fresh air would do the trick. Then again, dust problem. At the moment I'm leaning heavily on front mount and moving the one extra fan below as I take to blow on the gpu with the loan front ran not atta led to the rad on top to blow towards the CPU and ram while using the top and back as exhaust. I could still switch the top as intake there so I have two fans blowing at CPU with one exhaust in the back, but I will need additional dust covers.
Edit:
Reading the comments Bob and somebody there suggested the same thing as you mounting at top intaking cool air on rad. Another person wanted him to have a fan at the bottom of the case. Your idea of three front intakes, two bottom intakes, and the radiator up top with a si for exhaust does sound very viable.
tygeezy said:Okay, so some more research indicates that my case only comes with a front air filter. That'd pretty damn annoying considering the price of the case. I can however buy some magnetic ones from frys for a reasonable price. I would have to buy 4 of those for either Bobs plan or the one I mentioned.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
Took a look at the video, and I really like that he actually did the experiment instead of just talking about it like a lot of Tubers. I'd always defer to actual experiments over math, the real world is... messy.
For this one, the important part is not that it's up top, it's that it was using hot air to cool the CPU. If he had flipped his top radiator fans to pull air in from the outside, I'm nearly certain he'd get the same result.
This is similar to what I said before, which is that what matters is that the CPU radiator and GPU both get fresh cold air. (And that the motherboard VRMs get at least a bit of overflow.)
So based on this video are we leaning towards front mounted intake for radiator? Based on me having an open card I'm thinking yes. Unless we really do think that putting the radiator up top with the fans up top pulling in the fresh air would do the trick. Then again, dust problem. At the moment I'm leaning heavily on front mount and moving the one extra fan below as I take to blow on the gpu with the loan front ran not atta led to the rad on top to blow towards the CPU and ram while using the top and back as exhaust. I could still switch the top as intake there so I have two fans blowing at CPU with one exhaust in the back, but I will need additional dust covers.
Edit:
Reading the comments Bob and somebody there suggested the same thing as you mounting at top intaking cool air on rad. Another person wanted him to have a fan at the bottom of the case. Your idea of three front intakes, two bottom intakes, and the radiator up top with a si for exhaust does sound very viable.
We did some basic testing with my old i5-2500k + TitanX / cousins i7-6700k + TitanX
And got some stupid Numbers. I5@4.3Ghz i7@4.4Ghz.
2500k firestrike ultra 6050 points
6700k firestrike ultra 6550 points
Friend just put 700€ into his machine Last summer i can't but laugh
About these differences, there has to be Something terribly wrong in the test
Or some one is pissing into peoples eyes with new tech. If this it the dirrerence
Isnt it kind of pointless to pay for cpu upgrade ? Offcourse benchmarks don't tell
The whole truth but i. Dirt rally for example both systems scored average 101
Frames in 3D......Damn i should have tested in 2D.....on the other hand who even
plays in 2D anymore
We did some basic testing with my old i5-2500k + TitanX / cousins i7-6700k + TitanX
And got some stupid Numbers. I5@4.3Ghz i7@4.4Ghz.
2500k firestrike ultra 6050 points
6700k firestrike ultra 6550 points
Friend just put 700€ into his machine Last summer i can't but laugh
About these differences, there has to be Something terribly wrong in the test
Or some one is pissing into peoples eyes with new tech. If this it the dirrerence
Isnt it kind of pointless to pay for cpu upgrade ? Offcourse benchmarks don't tell
The whole truth but i. Dirt rally for example both systems scored average 101
Frames in 3D......Damn i should have tested in 2D.....on the other hand who even
plays in 2D anymore
CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@4.7
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
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That's a nice setup.
If I were setting this up, I'd actually make all of the fans except the large one on the back input fans.
1) Radiator on top should draw cold in air, blow into case. CPU radiator should always use cold air if you want to maximum your OC. And as the video notes, you can clean the inputs easier, if you put the fans on the other side of the radiator, and pull through.
2) Fans on bottom of case should pull cold air in from the floor, to blow directly onto the GPU. This will also optimize your OC for the GPU.
3) I'd also set the front fans to pull in cold air, all three of them. They can blow across the motherboard VRMs, which will help OC. With only hot air from the top radiator, the VRMs will otherwise get toasty.
4) Back large fan would be the sole output fan. This keeps postive pressure in the case.
Top radiator counts as maybe 1 fan, because there is high resistance through the radiator. 6:1 ratio is probably high, so it would maybe make sense to put bottom fans into output for a 4:3 ratio, but I still think cold air to the FTW is more important. And, it is also outputting some air through the back.
All these shenanigans really only matter for OC. For normal operation it won't make any difference how it's setup.
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Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Did a cross post there-
For this layout, I'd put the CPU radiator on the top, pulling in cold air, and move the two top fans to the front for all three on the front pulling in cold air.
With the bottom of the three blowing in cold air to feed the GPU, I wouldn't worry too much about the missing bottom fans.
And keeping the large output fan on back.
As RageDemon notes, you can test different scenarios to see if you note any difference.
With 3 big ol' shaggy dogs, I'd definitely make sure that the input fans have easy to clean filters. And go with the seemingly too high 4:1 ratio of input to output. It's not just the hair, it's also the dander you want to keep out.
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Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Or mount the fans underneath the radiator from the roof? mounting from underneath the radiator to the roof makes it easier to clean the dust it would seem.
My pc will be under a desk, so it might not have the best air to pull from top.
Unfortunately, I don't believe it is correct. I was going through the calculation for academic reasons, and got a different answer.
Out of interest:
g = 9.8
B = 3.43 x10^-3
Ts = 80
Ti = 20
L = 0.1
v = 15.11 x10^-6
Figures obtained from here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
Thus: Gr = (9.8 * 3.43 x10^-3 * (80-20) * 0.1^3)/(15.11 x10^-6)^2 ≈ 9,000,000
That article speaking about the Reynolds number also seems to be suspect.
We have:
u is the velocity of the fluid with respect to the object (m/s) = 3m/s for 100 CFM 140mm AIO fan.
http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow-unit-conversion
ν is the kinematic viscosity of the fluid (m2/s) = same as the Gr calculation: 15.11 x10^-6
L is a characteristic linear dimension, presumably 0.1m in this case
So, Re = (3 * 0.1)/15.11 x10^-6 = 20,000
Re^2 = 40,000,000
So, Gr/Re^2 = 9,000,000 / 40,000,000 = 0.225
If the ratio was 1, then both convection and forced air would have equal impact i.e. 50%. Since the Ratio is 0.225, then convection seems to have an impact of 11.25%.
This is not taking into account the 10x multiplication of the fins you suggested, nor does it taken into account the slowed down effect of air as it hits the radiator (air coming out of the other side is significantly slower).
I don't think either of us fully understands the deep mechanisms that these equations deal with. We could be out by many orders of magnitude and not even know it because we don't have an intuition for these numbers - I have a hunch that we may be approaching it completely wrong :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I can't say mate. Nice dogs btw! Generally, the coolest air in the room is at the bottom - it would be a shame to not have the cool air being injected into the case, and the case exhausting from the top or top-rear.
If you are at all interested in what I have done, then my setup is a little different - my 2 fans are actually at the side of the case at the bottom - custom design after taking a hack-saw to it. It is designed to force air in between the closely spaced SLi cards. I have cut a hole in the bottom of the case too to allow the bottom card to get direct fresh air. Both the 2 fans at the side and the hole at the bottom have air filters. The fans turn on when the GPU temp reached 50 degrees, otherwise they are off to prevent micro-dust coming in through the filters.
I think we might be over-thinking it. You have got a great cooler and a fantastic case. I don't think cooling is going to be an issue at all.
Giving you an example, I am at 1.56V on all cores @ 5.1 when benchmarking as you know, and the temp never reaches >85 degrees.
What will matter the most is the quality of the chip and the de-lid. I would recommend it - it only looks sketchy but it's quite straight forward. In fact, I repasted my GFX cards too with the same compound - 5 degrees difference and I can OC higher.
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I'd put it with roof->radiator->fans.
With fans pulling through the radiator for cold air. That way you don't get build up on the surface of the radiator, between the fans and the radiator like Linux Tips showed. You can have a good filter on top.
I wouldn't worry about limited air flow under the desk unless it's like 2" or less. It's hard to pull air through a radiator so the input draw will be less than normal. Be sure to use High Pressure fans, not high airflow.
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I would still do it differently though and I know this is a different case, but it has a lot of similarities. So, I can take my radiator and mount it in the front, but the bottom front; since it only takes up two fan slots. That top fan slot can blow cold air towards the cpu. I can then take one of the front fans that has no place anymore because of the radiator and put it on the bottom so that it blows towards the gpu. I can then set my top fans to intake, and just have one exhaust out the back? What are your guys thoughts on that? I'm not sure if my case comes with a dust filter for the top since most people use it as exhaust. Also, by in-taking into the radiator from the front wouldn't that cause a lot of dust buildup underneath the fans? It does have a dust filter, how much do they help?
So i'd drop the radiator down a notch from the picture below and then have that bottom fan op top pointing towards the cpu
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Bob, did you see this video? According to this guy because of the cooling setup I have on my GPU(open) it would increase temps on my cpu by mounting at the top. Of course he mounted the fans below the radiator insuring a really dusty radiator after awhile.
http://www.frys.com/product/8185855?source=google&gclid=CN_1-u_HzdICFYhqfgodoLgBOA
Edit:
Nicely reviewed! I was worried that my units were off, and I think you clarified that was true.
I was using the Engineering Toolbox numbers, but made the error of neglecting their table headers which dramatically changes the v.
Looking more carefully, I think your 9 million Grashof number seems pretty right.
On the Reynolds number, I already burned my available time looking at Greshof numbers, and was using the shortcut from that page. Not at all sure that is right.
Using the formula approach:
u=0.52 m/s
Actual Corsair fan: http://www.corsair.com/en-us/air-series-af140-quiet-edition-high-airflow-140mm-fan Giving 67.8 CFM.
Using the unit conversion tool: http://www.comairrotron.com/airflow-unit-conversion With 67.8 CFM and 140 mm circular duct.
L=0.2 m
Hard to say, but 20 cm doesn't seem unreasonable for 'width' or 'diameter'. Maybe 20 cm for an ATX case like in the above pictures.
v=15.11x10^-6 m^2/s
From: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html
Which comes to (0.52 * 0.2)/15.11x10^-6 ≈ 7000
Different order of magnitude for your 20,000 number. The big difference here is our u numbers. Your value of 3 is for 400 CFM, mine is for a single fan at 67.8 CFM. With 4 or 5 fives that's about right.
So... Gr=9x10^6 and Re^2=49x10^6 with a ratio of 0.18
(In your example, your Re^2 is wrong, it should be 400,000,000. Giving a ratio of 0.02)
So we are maybe somewhere in the range of 0.2 to 0.02 for the ratio. For a single fan, versus maybe 4 fans. With a single fan, these numbers suggest that there would possibly be a natural convection impact, but for 4 fans, it would fall into the too small range.
I also have to agree that these formulas may not be the right ones for this scenario. Lots of engineering formulas only work in specific scenarios, and I also can't be certain they apply here. There is some discussion about compressible fluids, which air clearly is compressible.
In particular, these formulas are assuming laminar flow, and I'm not at all sure that'd be expected here, although the numbers seem to be below the points where we'd expect chaotic flow.
These formulas do give you some insight into what matters, even if we are off on numbers. Simplifying the formula, we remove the v^2 and get
ratio = gB(T-T)L/u^2
So, it's roughly dependent upon the temperature delta, the Length, and the velocity.
My short takeaway is that I still think natural convection is not worth worrying about in case flow.
It's much more important to get cold air to the right spots, because that delta between temperatures is important.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
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Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Took a look at the video, and I really like that he actually did the experiment instead of just talking about it like a lot of Tubers. I'd always defer to actual experiments over math, the real world is... messy.
For this one, the important part is not that it's up top, it's that it was using hot air to cool the CPU. If he had flipped his top radiator fans to pull air in from the outside, I'm nearly certain he'd get the same result.
This is similar to what I said before, which is that what matters is that the CPU radiator and GPU both get fresh cold air. (And that the motherboard VRMs get at least a bit of overflow.)
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Edit:
Reading the comments Bob and somebody there suggested the same thing as you mounting at top intaking cool air on rad. Another person wanted him to have a fan at the bottom of the case. Your idea of three front intakes, two bottom intakes, and the radiator up top with a si for exhaust does sound very viable.
And got some stupid Numbers. I5@4.3Ghz i7@4.4Ghz.
2500k firestrike ultra 6050 points
6700k firestrike ultra 6550 points
Friend just put 700€ into his machine Last summer i can't but laugh
About these differences, there has to be Something terribly wrong in the test
Or some one is pissing into peoples eyes with new tech. If this it the dirrerence
Isnt it kind of pointless to pay for cpu upgrade ? Offcourse benchmarks don't tell
The whole truth but i. Dirt rally for example both systems scored average 101
Frames in 3D......Damn i should have tested in 2D.....on the other hand who even
plays in 2D anymore
CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@4.7
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele