A HUGE PROBLEM DISCOVERED WITH 3D VISION! ARE YOU AWARE OF THIS?
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[quote name='Ferry' date='26 September 2011 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1317067563' post='1299082']Fps changes slowly between 40-60 fps...
Doesn't jump from 30-60 ![/quote]
As it should, considering that the phenomenon is produced in the end of the pipeline and that FPS readouts universally rely on API hooks to determine when a frame is ready to be mapped to hardware, not when it's completed. The CPU is doing the same amount of work at 45 FPS regardless of vertical synchronization, which gives an inaccurate account for such limitations. Given these conditions, it's somewhat fair to call it a subjective experience.
Separately, let's leave the hostility at the door. There's no need to stir up conflict over something like this. I've edited/deleted posts to keep things civil.
[quote name='Ferry' date='26 September 2011 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1317067563' post='1299082']Fps changes slowly between 40-60 fps...
Doesn't jump from 30-60 !
As it should, considering that the phenomenon is produced in the end of the pipeline and that FPS readouts universally rely on API hooks to determine when a frame is ready to be mapped to hardware, not when it's completed. The CPU is doing the same amount of work at 45 FPS regardless of vertical synchronization, which gives an inaccurate account for such limitations. Given these conditions, it's somewhat fair to call it a subjective experience.
Separately, let's leave the hostility at the door. There's no need to stir up conflict over something like this. I've edited/deleted posts to keep things civil.
[quote name='JaMiR' date='26 September 2011 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1317065808' post='1299055']
I did two quick tests because i have not seen this with 3D vision, only 2D games with V-Sync but without triple buffering and it is very annoying. I have always enabled TB if it's in games Video settings. These two that i tested do not had TB in game settings, i have not forcet it either. Used latest Fraps full.
The Witcher 2, smooth frame rate transition. Most of the time fps was 40-50 at the place i tested. No 60--->30 thing here.
Mafia 2, same as Witcher but frame rate was 40-60.
[quote name='JaMiR' date='26 September 2011 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1317065808' post='1299055']
I did two quick tests because i have not seen this with 3D vision, only 2D games with V-Sync but without triple buffering and it is very annoying. I have always enabled TB if it's in games Video settings. These two that i tested do not had TB in game settings, i have not forcet it either. Used latest Fraps full.
The Witcher 2, smooth frame rate transition. Most of the time fps was 40-50 at the place i tested. No 60--->30 thing here.
Mafia 2, same as Witcher but frame rate was 40-60.
I have single 470GTX
Hope this help.
I get similar results
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
What he says it is true... Actually if we read about the docs and know about some DirectX programming (Direct3D) indeed this can be calculated.... as Exitios says. What I wanted to say to "the guy" is that this problem seems to not manifest (or very little) when running in SLI. However, instead he likes sending me PMs to stay out of his thread of mega discovery....
So I suggest get another card in SLI and drop the yelling in the title:)
And as a side note English is not my 1st language but I have a TEOFL language certificate of 115/120 (IBT). I am saying this since I really "like" how my grammar bothers you and since this topic is weird to begin with....
What he says it is true... Actually if we read about the docs and know about some DirectX programming (Direct3D) indeed this can be calculated.... as Exitios says. What I wanted to say to "the guy" is that this problem seems to not manifest (or very little) when running in SLI. However, instead he likes sending me PMs to stay out of his thread of mega discovery....
So I suggest get another card in SLI and drop the yelling in the title:)
And as a side note English is not my 1st language but I have a TEOFL language certificate of 115/120 (IBT). I am saying this since I really "like" how my grammar bothers you and since this topic is weird to begin with....
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Sorry for lack of understanding but some replies I've had are questionable! I wouldn't lol at someone's post in such a way!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1317075993' post='1299154']
Sorry for lack of understanding but some replies I've had are questionable! I wouldn't lol at someone's post in such a way!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
[/quote]
Hmm I made a small video. You can see fraps in the corner.
- At first I show the framerate in 2D (Surround)
- Than I move to 3D Surround and show the FPS.
As it can be seen from the movie the FPS tend to reach 60FPS (58-60) and than 40(35-40)FPS.
As stated above the framerate is not constant in between 30,40,50,60..but from the 2nd part of the movie it can be seen(measured by Fraps) that tends to reach 40. It cannot reach so the "constant" is around 37-38 fps in 3D with Vsync On (both ingame and forced by 3D Vision).
In other words...If the game cannot reach 40FPS the framerate isn't downgraded to 30fps instead it tries to be "constant" around 37-38.
Link to the video: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of4IWwK1K0M"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Of4IWwK1K0M[/url]
So now that we have proof, I would like if possible to talk about it and see why this is the case (as seen in video).
[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision. - [/color][/size][/font][b]YES this is correct![/b]
[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - [/color][/size][/font][b][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]Not necessary. As you can see from my video in the 1st place I didn't had 120fps. Yet when I kicked 3D on, the framerate caped at 60.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1317075993' post='1299154']
Sorry for lack of understanding but some replies I've had are questionable! I wouldn't lol at someone's post in such a way!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
Hmm I made a small video. You can see fraps in the corner.
- At first I show the framerate in 2D (Surround)
- Than I move to 3D Surround and show the FPS.
As it can be seen from the movie the FPS tend to reach 60FPS (58-60) and than 40(35-40)FPS.
As stated above the framerate is not constant in between 30,40,50,60..but from the 2nd part of the movie it can be seen(measured by Fraps) that tends to reach 40. It cannot reach so the "constant" is around 37-38 fps in 3D with Vsync On (both ingame and forced by 3D Vision).
In other words...If the game cannot reach 40FPS the framerate isn't downgraded to 30fps instead it tries to be "constant" around 37-38.
So now that we have proof, I would like if possible to talk about it and see why this is the case (as seen in video).
Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision. - YES this is correct!
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - Not necessary. As you can see from my video in the 1st place I didn't had 120fps. Yet when I kicked 3D on, the framerate caped at 60.
Best Regards,
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great. /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again! /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great. /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again! /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1317085701' post='1299226']
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great. /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4[/url]
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc[/url]
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again! /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />
[/quote]
Hi! I will make a single monitor & single card test this evening when I reach home and will present the result!
I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' /> - [b]Yes this is true. I put ingame also ON to stress the framerate even more to see (show) how the framerate performs. I don't have any screen tearing if the in-game VSYNC is OFF (and only the 3D Vision one is active ). [/b]
[b]
[/b]
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!! [b] - Yes this sometimes happens. Usually the center screen goes out of sync. The result is : On center screen I see 3D but the eyes are flipped while on the lateral screens the 3D is...well 3D (no flipped eyes). Usually disabling and re-enabling 3D vision via CTRL+T solves this. So I suspect that even when the screen don't go "out of sync that much" there still is a very small synchronization problem between them.[/b]
[b]
[/b]Thanks for the video, here's a present -
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4[/url]
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc[/url]
-[b]A yes!! I saw these movies some time ago. It looks veeeeryy promising !! If indeed it is possible (and programmers uses that engine and that way of rendering) then.....I won't say more...but everything that we find "realistic" now in a game will look extremely "plastic" compared to that:D[/b]
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1317085701' post='1299226']
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great. /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again! /thanks.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thanks:' />
Hi! I will make a single monitor & single card test this evening when I reach home and will present the result!
I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on! /pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' /> - Yes this is true. I put ingame also ON to stress the framerate even more to see (show) how the framerate performs. I don't have any screen tearing if the in-game VSYNC is OFF (and only the 3D Vision one is active ).
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!! - Yes this sometimes happens. Usually the center screen goes out of sync. The result is : On center screen I see 3D but the eyes are flipped while on the lateral screens the 3D is...well 3D (no flipped eyes). Usually disabling and re-enabling 3D vision via CTRL+T solves this. So I suspect that even when the screen don't go "out of sync that much" there still is a very small synchronization problem between them.
-A yes!! I saw these movies some time ago. It looks veeeeryy promising !! If indeed it is possible (and programmers uses that engine and that way of rendering) then.....I won't say more...but everything that we find "realistic" now in a game will look extremely "plastic" compared to that:D
Best Regards,
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Yes, you *can* have 47FPS or similar with 3D Vision (aka not 60FPS, than bang down to 30).
Reason is TRIPPLE BUFFERING.
With double buffering you have 2 buffers:
1) What is shown on screen
2) What is rendered
With double buffering you will suffer forementioned 60FPS drop to 30FPS, etc...
Reason:
When one frame is switched to be displayed, other can be rendered.
However, if it takes more then 16.66ms (16.666ms x 60 = 1sec), if will not flip for this frame.
So, if it takes to render 1 frame 17ms, you will dip to 30FPS display.
However, when frame is rendered in back buffer, gfx card will WAIT for 16.3ms until page flip, and then start rendering next frame.
However, with tripple buffering this is resolved differently:
You have 1 frame which is displayed, and another is started to be drawn in back buffer 1.
It is finished in 17ms. Yes, on 1st pass, after 1st frame is display, it will be shown again.
But, when 1st back buffer is done rendering, it will immediately continue to render into 2nd back buffer.
What this means for what is shown on screen:
[code]
Frames on screen: | 1 2 3 4 5 6
-------------------------------------------------------------
Double buffer | 2222222222 1111111111 2222222222
Rendering |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Double buffer | 1 1 2 2 1 1
shown on screen |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tripple buffer | 2222222222333333333311111111112222222222333
rendering |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tripple buffer | 1 1 2 3 1 2
shown on screen |
[/code]
In this example in 6 'screen refreshes', with double buffering you had 3 different pictures, with tripple buffering you had 5.
So, with tripple buffering you WILL get smoother then 30-60FPS, as you WILL have odd FPS as 47FPS, 53FPS and similar, and not limited to dip to 60FPS from 30FPS.
In this example in 6 'screen refreshes', with double buffering you had 3 different pictures, with tripple buffering you had 5.
So, with tripple buffering you WILL get smoother then 30-60FPS, as you WILL have odd FPS as 47FPS, 53FPS and similar, and not limited to dip to 60FPS from 30FPS.
Excellent explanation, Nick. I was wondering if I should jump in and write something similar, but you explained it much better than I would have done it.
Excellent explanation, Nick. I was wondering if I should jump in and write something similar, but you explained it much better than I would have done it.
Yes:) Just for the reference, I want to provide a link. It talks about the basics of direct x programming.
What the above post refers to is the [b]SwapChain. [/b] Read that section well to understand the concept and understand what he is referring to. In the picture you can see 2 Buffers: Front + Back = [b]Double buffering.[/b] Also in the article there is a reference about [b]triplebuffering , [/b]when 2 back buffers are used and 1 front buffer.
I think anyone who want to understand the "tick-tack" should read at least the article from the link: [url="http://www.directxtutorial.com/Tutorial11/B-A/BA1.aspx"]http://www.directxtutorial.com/Tutorial11/B-A/BA1.aspx[/url]
Yes:) Just for the reference, I want to provide a link. It talks about the basics of direct x programming.
What the above post refers to is the SwapChain. Read that section well to understand the concept and understand what he is referring to. In the picture you can see 2 Buffers: Front + Back = Double buffering. Also in the article there is a reference about triplebuffering , when 2 back buffers are used and 1 front buffer.
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
The argument for triple buffering (believe it or not) is actually not related to my initial issue.
This would be better to have enabled in nvidia control panel, and it simply enables an extra frame to
be kept in memory - for when the card would otherwise have to skip cycles and drop a frame.
But my issue is with v-sync AND 3d vision. The way they seem to react would suggest framerates of 30,40 and 60 being viable only!
Now helifax's multi monitor experiment would be viable with double or triple buffering on.
I am solely concerned with the way 3d has to be 'split-timed' between left and right frames -
In other words , perhaps anything other than multiples of 120 will give bad 'split-times' and cause
screen tear!
Hope I haven't got too technical, thanks.
P.S. Please continue 'the experiment' will be testing Driver San
Francisco as well as hard reset later too! Will post pics or just say results. Also do not use any averages or 'sudden' fps, just observe the most steady framerates - everything else is just fraps
playing catch-up.
The argument for triple buffering (believe it or not) is actually not related to my initial issue.
This would be better to have enabled in nvidia control panel, and it simply enables an extra frame to
be kept in memory - for when the card would otherwise have to skip cycles and drop a frame.
But my issue is with v-sync AND 3d vision. The way they seem to react would suggest framerates of 30,40 and 60 being viable only!
Now helifax's multi monitor experiment would be viable with double or triple buffering on.
I am solely concerned with the way 3d has to be 'split-timed' between left and right frames -
In other words , perhaps anything other than multiples of 120 will give bad 'split-times' and cause
screen tear!
Hope I haven't got too technical, thanks.
P.S. Please continue 'the experiment' will be testing Driver San
Francisco as well as hard reset later too! Will post pics or just say results. Also do not use any averages or 'sudden' fps, just observe the most steady framerates - everything else is just fraps
it's really quite simple: No matter what, each of the glasses switch 120 times per second. Each eye can see half of the frames, alternating left and right. So each eye sees exactly 60 images i.e. 60 Hz. That's independent from the framerate and true for all games.
The framerate is a different matter. In theory, if the game would be able to calculate at least 120 frames per second constantly, each image presented to the left and right eye would be a matching pair, and each subsequent image pair will show a slightly different, newly calculated scene. In that case, you'd see an actual frame rate of 60 fps in fraps (60 pairs of frames in fact).
If the game can't sustain 60 fps (i.e. can't calculate 120 individual frames in one second), some of the subsequent images will just be exactly the same as the previous ones. Again, the driver will still make sure that the image shown to the left and the right eye are matching, it can't happen that the right eye sees a "later" image that the left eye.
So if, for example, the actual framerate would be a constant 54 fps (i.e. the game can calculate 108 frames in one second), each 10th pair of images shown to the player would just be exactly the same as the previous pair, while all the other image-pairs would be shown only once.
See Nick's illustration to make that even more transparent.
3D doesn't change anything to the rendering pipeline, you just have to consider that you always have to think in pairs of images (which will cause the actual framerate to be halfed) and that VSync is a neccessity. Otherwise it's just the same is monoscopic rendering with VSync activated.
it's really quite simple: No matter what, each of the glasses switch 120 times per second. Each eye can see half of the frames, alternating left and right. So each eye sees exactly 60 images i.e. 60 Hz. That's independent from the framerate and true for all games.
The framerate is a different matter. In theory, if the game would be able to calculate at least 120 frames per second constantly, each image presented to the left and right eye would be a matching pair, and each subsequent image pair will show a slightly different, newly calculated scene. In that case, you'd see an actual frame rate of 60 fps in fraps (60 pairs of frames in fact).
If the game can't sustain 60 fps (i.e. can't calculate 120 individual frames in one second), some of the subsequent images will just be exactly the same as the previous ones. Again, the driver will still make sure that the image shown to the left and the right eye are matching, it can't happen that the right eye sees a "later" image that the left eye.
So if, for example, the actual framerate would be a constant 54 fps (i.e. the game can calculate 108 frames in one second), each 10th pair of images shown to the player would just be exactly the same as the previous pair, while all the other image-pairs would be shown only once.
See Nick's illustration to make that even more transparent.
3D doesn't change anything to the rendering pipeline, you just have to consider that you always have to think in pairs of images (which will cause the actual framerate to be halfed) and that VSync is a neccessity. Otherwise it's just the same is monoscopic rendering with VSync activated.
Can the administrator remove above post?
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1317160984' post='1299704']
Can the administrator remove above post?
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
[/quote]
Have you considered the possibility you found one of the few games made in the last 3-4 years that doesn't use triple buffering? I don't think anyone is doubting that possibility, just a bit premature to to make blanket statements that its a huge problem. This is really a non-starter for a few reasons:
1) as many have already pointed out, most newer titles do use triple buffering and allow for incremental FPS between 30 and 60.
2) older games (that don't use triple buffering) are generally less demanding, so the chance of these incremental frame drops occurring below 60FPS diminishes as graphics hardware improves.
3) most people who venture into the realm of 3D Vision know and understand the benefits from increased performance and are willing to spend on top-notch hardware including SLI.
I doubt the admin will delete this post as one of the main purposes of a technical forum is to provide reference and information, and there's a lot of very good explanations and information in this thread that shouldn't be tossed away imo.
[quote name='deathorb' date='27 September 2011 - 06:03 PM' timestamp='1317160984' post='1299704']
Can the administrator remove above post?
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
Have you considered the possibility you found one of the few games made in the last 3-4 years that doesn't use triple buffering? I don't think anyone is doubting that possibility, just a bit premature to to make blanket statements that its a huge problem. This is really a non-starter for a few reasons:
1) as many have already pointed out, most newer titles do use triple buffering and allow for incremental FPS between 30 and 60.
2) older games (that don't use triple buffering) are generally less demanding, so the chance of these incremental frame drops occurring below 60FPS diminishes as graphics hardware improves.
3) most people who venture into the realm of 3D Vision know and understand the benefits from increased performance and are willing to spend on top-notch hardware including SLI.
I doubt the admin will delete this post as one of the main purposes of a technical forum is to provide reference and information, and there's a lot of very good explanations and information in this thread that shouldn't be tossed away imo.
Doesn't jump from 30-60 ![/quote]
As it should, considering that the phenomenon is produced in the end of the pipeline and that FPS readouts universally rely on API hooks to determine when a frame is ready to be mapped to hardware, not when it's completed. The CPU is doing the same amount of work at 45 FPS regardless of vertical synchronization, which gives an inaccurate account for such limitations. Given these conditions, it's somewhat fair to call it a subjective experience.
Separately, let's leave the hostility at the door. There's no need to stir up conflict over something like this. I've edited/deleted posts to keep things civil.
Doesn't jump from 30-60 !
As it should, considering that the phenomenon is produced in the end of the pipeline and that FPS readouts universally rely on API hooks to determine when a frame is ready to be mapped to hardware, not when it's completed. The CPU is doing the same amount of work at 45 FPS regardless of vertical synchronization, which gives an inaccurate account for such limitations. Given these conditions, it's somewhat fair to call it a subjective experience.
Separately, let's leave the hostility at the door. There's no need to stir up conflict over something like this. I've edited/deleted posts to keep things civil.
NVIDIA | Content & Technology
Technical Marketing Analyst, Gaming Products and Technologies
I did two quick tests because i have not seen this with 3D vision, only 2D games with V-Sync but without triple buffering and it is very annoying. I have always enabled TB if it's in games Video settings. These two that i tested do not had TB in game settings, i have not forcet it either. Used latest Fraps full.
The Witcher 2, smooth frame rate transition. Most of the time fps was 40-50 at the place i tested. No 60--->30 thing here.
Mafia 2, same as Witcher but frame rate was 40-60.
I have single 470GTX
Hope this help.
[/quote]
I get similar results
I did two quick tests because i have not seen this with 3D vision, only 2D games with V-Sync but without triple buffering and it is very annoying. I have always enabled TB if it's in games Video settings. These two that i tested do not had TB in game settings, i have not forcet it either. Used latest Fraps full.
The Witcher 2, smooth frame rate transition. Most of the time fps was 40-50 at the place i tested. No 60--->30 thing here.
Mafia 2, same as Witcher but frame rate was 40-60.
I have single 470GTX
Hope this help.
I get similar results
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
So I suggest get another card in SLI and drop the yelling in the title:)
And as a side note English is not my 1st language but I have a TEOFL language certificate of 115/120 (IBT). I am saying this since I really "like" how my grammar bothers you and since this topic is weird to begin with....
Helifax
So I suggest get another card in SLI and drop the yelling in the title:)
And as a side note English is not my 1st language but I have a TEOFL language certificate of 115/120 (IBT). I am saying this since I really "like" how my grammar bothers you and since this topic is weird to begin with....
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
Sorry for lack of understanding but some replies I've had are questionable! I wouldn't lol at someone's post in such a way!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
[/quote]
Hmm I made a small video. You can see fraps in the corner.
- At first I show the framerate in 2D (Surround)
- Than I move to 3D Surround and show the FPS.
As it can be seen from the movie the FPS tend to reach 60FPS (58-60) and than 40(35-40)FPS.
As stated above the framerate is not constant in between 30,40,50,60..but from the 2nd part of the movie it can be seen(measured by Fraps) that tends to reach 40. It cannot reach so the "constant" is around 37-38 fps in 3D with Vsync On (both ingame and forced by 3D Vision).
In other words...If the game cannot reach 40FPS the framerate isn't downgraded to 30fps instead it tries to be "constant" around 37-38.
Link to the video: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of4IWwK1K0M"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Of4IWwK1K0M[/url]
So now that we have proof, I would like if possible to talk about it and see why this is the case (as seen in video).
[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision. - [/color][/size][/font][b]YES this is correct![/b]
[font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - [/color][/size][/font][b][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"][size="2"][color="#ffffff"]Not necessary. As you can see from my video in the 1st place I didn't had 120fps. Yet when I kicked 3D on, the framerate caped at 60.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
Best Regards,
Helifax
Sorry for lack of understanding but some replies I've had are questionable! I wouldn't lol at someone's post in such a way!
Any way I think I know the issue - Your 3d and it's needed v-sync will only allow 30, 40 and 60 fps - measured with fraps.
This , if true , will justify my post. Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision.
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps (3d) - any less should result in, 40 or 30 fps (not 53 or 47,etc.)
The v-sync forces a multiple of 120 (for reasons stated previously)
Now that's sorted - can someone show me otherwise? Any constant framerate other than 30,40 and 60 in 3d would suffice!
Hmm I made a small video. You can see fraps in the corner.
- At first I show the framerate in 2D (Surround)
- Than I move to 3D Surround and show the FPS.
As it can be seen from the movie the FPS tend to reach 60FPS (58-60) and than 40(35-40)FPS.
As stated above the framerate is not constant in between 30,40,50,60..but from the 2nd part of the movie it can be seen(measured by Fraps) that tends to reach 40. It cannot reach so the "constant" is around 37-38 fps in 3D with Vsync On (both ingame and forced by 3D Vision).
In other words...If the game cannot reach 40FPS the framerate isn't downgraded to 30fps instead it tries to be "constant" around 37-38.
Link to the video: " rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Of4IWwK1K0M
So now that we have proof, I would like if possible to talk about it and see why this is the case (as seen in video).
Therefore a slight boost in fps does not always mean a boost in 3d vision. - YES this is correct!
In fact you need to get over 120 fps (2d) to get 60 fps per eye (3d) - Not necessary. As you can see from my video in the 1st place I didn't had 120fps. Yet when I kicked 3D on, the framerate caped at 60.
Best Regards,
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great.
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again!
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great.
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again!
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on!
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great.
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4[/url]
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc[/url]
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again!
[/quote]
Hi! I will make a single monitor & single card test this evening when I reach home and will present the result!
I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on!
[b]
[/b]
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!! [b] - Yes this sometimes happens. Usually the center screen goes out of sync. The result is : On center screen I see 3D but the eyes are flipped while on the lateral screens the 3D is...well 3D (no flipped eyes). Usually disabling and re-enabling 3D vision via CTRL+T solves this. So I suspect that even when the screen don't go "out of sync that much" there still is a very small synchronization problem between them.[/b]
[b]
[/b]Thanks for the video, here's a present -
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4[/url]
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc[/url]
-[b]A yes!! I saw these movies some time ago. It looks veeeeryy promising !! If indeed it is possible (and programmers uses that engine and that way of rendering) then.....I won't say more...but everything that we find "realistic" now in a game will look extremely "plastic" compared to that:D[/b]
Best Regards,
Helifax
[b]
[/b]
Excellent! (rubs hands). I can rule this fps switching - down to hard reset then? I wish I had tried whilst I had other games installed! But there is one question - why have v-sync enabled twice? I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on!
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!!
Still, I could put it down to what the kcuf, but somethings bugging me about your multi-screen setup - would it cause a fluctuation? And what about SLI? A test done on a single screen with a single card and no in game v-sync would be great.
Maybe a quick tamper with the nvidia controls and just tell me the results!!
Look forward to reply!
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
" rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
" rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc
Soon - this kind of forum argument will be a thing of the past! But do try my single solution if possible! Thanx again!
Hi! I will make a single monitor & single card test this evening when I reach home and will present the result!
I believe someone 'in the know' once said that it causes slight problems with 3d vision. Should be 'off' in game. But I would love to know if you are getting any screen tear - with those 'uneven' fps and 3d glasses on!
Anyway I wonder how the monitor outputs these odd numbered frames? They must occasionally go out of sync?!! - Yes this sometimes happens. Usually the center screen goes out of sync. The result is : On center screen I see 3D but the eyes are flipped while on the lateral screens the 3D is...well 3D (no flipped eyes). Usually disabling and re-enabling 3D vision via CTRL+T solves this. So I suspect that even when the screen don't go "out of sync that much" there still is a very small synchronization problem between them.
Thanks for the video, here's a present -
" rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=00gAbgBu8R4
Seems legit, watch the independent analysis here-
" rel="nofollow" target = "_blank">http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JVB1ayT6Fdc
-A yes!! I saw these movies some time ago. It looks veeeeryy promising !! If indeed it is possible (and programmers uses that engine and that way of rendering) then.....I won't say more...but everything that we find "realistic" now in a game will look extremely "plastic" compared to that:D
Best Regards,
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Yes, you *can* have 47FPS or similar with 3D Vision (aka not 60FPS, than bang down to 30).
Reason is TRIPPLE BUFFERING.
With double buffering you have 2 buffers:
1) What is shown on screen
2) What is rendered
With double buffering you will suffer forementioned 60FPS drop to 30FPS, etc...
Reason:
When one frame is switched to be displayed, other can be rendered.
However, if it takes more then 16.66ms (16.666ms x 60 = 1sec), if will not flip for this frame.
So, if it takes to render 1 frame 17ms, you will dip to 30FPS display.
However, when frame is rendered in back buffer, gfx card will WAIT for 16.3ms until page flip, and then start rendering next frame.
However, with tripple buffering this is resolved differently:
You have 1 frame which is displayed, and another is started to be drawn in back buffer 1.
It is finished in 17ms. Yes, on 1st pass, after 1st frame is display, it will be shown again.
But, when 1st back buffer is done rendering, it will immediately continue to render into 2nd back buffer.
What this means for what is shown on screen:
[code]
Frames on screen: | 1 2 3 4 5 6
-------------------------------------------------------------
Double buffer | 2222222222 1111111111 2222222222
Rendering |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Double buffer | 1 1 2 2 1 1
shown on screen |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tripple buffer | 2222222222333333333311111111112222222222333
rendering |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tripple buffer | 1 1 2 3 1 2
shown on screen |
[/code]
In this example in 6 'screen refreshes', with double buffering you had 3 different pictures, with tripple buffering you had 5.
So, with tripple buffering you WILL get smoother then 30-60FPS, as you WILL have odd FPS as 47FPS, 53FPS and similar, and not limited to dip to 60FPS from 30FPS.
Yes, you *can* have 47FPS or similar with 3D Vision (aka not 60FPS, than bang down to 30).
Reason is TRIPPLE BUFFERING.
With double buffering you have 2 buffers:
1) What is shown on screen
2) What is rendered
With double buffering you will suffer forementioned 60FPS drop to 30FPS, etc...
Reason:
When one frame is switched to be displayed, other can be rendered.
However, if it takes more then 16.66ms (16.666ms x 60 = 1sec), if will not flip for this frame.
So, if it takes to render 1 frame 17ms, you will dip to 30FPS display.
However, when frame is rendered in back buffer, gfx card will WAIT for 16.3ms until page flip, and then start rendering next frame.
However, with tripple buffering this is resolved differently:
You have 1 frame which is displayed, and another is started to be drawn in back buffer 1.
It is finished in 17ms. Yes, on 1st pass, after 1st frame is display, it will be shown again.
But, when 1st back buffer is done rendering, it will immediately continue to render into 2nd back buffer.
What this means for what is shown on screen:
In this example in 6 'screen refreshes', with double buffering you had 3 different pictures, with tripple buffering you had 5.
So, with tripple buffering you WILL get smoother then 30-60FPS, as you WILL have odd FPS as 47FPS, 53FPS and similar, and not limited to dip to 60FPS from 30FPS.
What the above post refers to is the [b]SwapChain. [/b] Read that section well to understand the concept and understand what he is referring to. In the picture you can see 2 Buffers: Front + Back = [b]Double buffering.[/b] Also in the article there is a reference about [b]triplebuffering , [/b]when 2 back buffers are used and 1 front buffer.
I think anyone who want to understand the "tick-tack" should read at least the article from the link: [url="http://www.directxtutorial.com/Tutorial11/B-A/BA1.aspx"]http://www.directxtutorial.com/Tutorial11/B-A/BA1.aspx[/url]
Best Regards,
Helifax
What the above post refers to is the SwapChain. Read that section well to understand the concept and understand what he is referring to. In the picture you can see 2 Buffers: Front + Back = Double buffering. Also in the article there is a reference about triplebuffering , when 2 back buffers are used and 1 front buffer.
I think anyone who want to understand the "tick-tack" should read at least the article from the link: http://www.directxtutorial.com/Tutorial11/B-A/BA1.aspx
Best Regards,
Helifax
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
Yes, you *can* have 47FPS or similar with 3D Vision (aka not 60FPS, than bang down to 30).
Reason is TRIPPLE BUFFERING.[/quote]
Very true, but I believe most were arguing the point about this happening explicitly with double-buffered v sync.
A very good explanation nonetheless, so thank you.
Yes, you *can* have 47FPS or similar with 3D Vision (aka not 60FPS, than bang down to 30).
Reason is TRIPPLE BUFFERING.
Very true, but I believe most were arguing the point about this happening explicitly with double-buffered v sync.
A very good explanation nonetheless, so thank you.
NVIDIA | Content & Technology
Technical Marketing Analyst, Gaming Products and Technologies
This would be better to have enabled in nvidia control panel, and it simply enables an extra frame to
be kept in memory - for when the card would otherwise have to skip cycles and drop a frame.
But my issue is with v-sync AND 3d vision. The way they seem to react would suggest framerates of 30,40 and 60 being viable only!
Now helifax's multi monitor experiment would be viable with double or triple buffering on.
I am solely concerned with the way 3d has to be 'split-timed' between left and right frames -
In other words , perhaps anything other than multiples of 120 will give bad 'split-times' and cause
screen tear!
Hope I haven't got too technical, thanks.
P.S. Please continue 'the experiment' will be testing Driver San
Francisco as well as hard reset later too! Will post pics or just say results. Also do not use any averages or 'sudden' fps, just observe the most steady framerates - everything else is just fraps
playing catch-up.
This would be better to have enabled in nvidia control panel, and it simply enables an extra frame to
be kept in memory - for when the card would otherwise have to skip cycles and drop a frame.
But my issue is with v-sync AND 3d vision. The way they seem to react would suggest framerates of 30,40 and 60 being viable only!
Now helifax's multi monitor experiment would be viable with double or triple buffering on.
I am solely concerned with the way 3d has to be 'split-timed' between left and right frames -
In other words , perhaps anything other than multiples of 120 will give bad 'split-times' and cause
screen tear!
Hope I haven't got too technical, thanks.
P.S. Please continue 'the experiment' will be testing Driver San
Francisco as well as hard reset later too! Will post pics or just say results. Also do not use any averages or 'sudden' fps, just observe the most steady framerates - everything else is just fraps
playing catch-up.
it's really quite simple: No matter what, each of the glasses switch 120 times per second. Each eye can see half of the frames, alternating left and right. So each eye sees exactly 60 images i.e. 60 Hz. That's independent from the framerate and true for all games.
The framerate is a different matter. In theory, if the game would be able to calculate at least 120 frames per second constantly, each image presented to the left and right eye would be a matching pair, and each subsequent image pair will show a slightly different, newly calculated scene. In that case, you'd see an actual frame rate of 60 fps in fraps (60 pairs of frames in fact).
If the game can't sustain 60 fps (i.e. can't calculate 120 individual frames in one second), some of the subsequent images will just be exactly the same as the previous ones. Again, the driver will still make sure that the image shown to the left and the right eye are matching, it can't happen that the right eye sees a "later" image that the left eye.
So if, for example, the actual framerate would be a constant 54 fps (i.e. the game can calculate 108 frames in one second), each 10th pair of images shown to the player would just be exactly the same as the previous pair, while all the other image-pairs would be shown only once.
See Nick's illustration to make that even more transparent.
3D doesn't change anything to the rendering pipeline, you just have to consider that you always have to think in pairs of images (which will cause the actual framerate to be halfed) and that VSync is a neccessity. Otherwise it's just the same is monoscopic rendering with VSync activated.
it's really quite simple: No matter what, each of the glasses switch 120 times per second. Each eye can see half of the frames, alternating left and right. So each eye sees exactly 60 images i.e. 60 Hz. That's independent from the framerate and true for all games.
The framerate is a different matter. In theory, if the game would be able to calculate at least 120 frames per second constantly, each image presented to the left and right eye would be a matching pair, and each subsequent image pair will show a slightly different, newly calculated scene. In that case, you'd see an actual frame rate of 60 fps in fraps (60 pairs of frames in fact).
If the game can't sustain 60 fps (i.e. can't calculate 120 individual frames in one second), some of the subsequent images will just be exactly the same as the previous ones. Again, the driver will still make sure that the image shown to the left and the right eye are matching, it can't happen that the right eye sees a "later" image that the left eye.
So if, for example, the actual framerate would be a constant 54 fps (i.e. the game can calculate 108 frames in one second), each 10th pair of images shown to the player would just be exactly the same as the previous pair, while all the other image-pairs would be shown only once.
See Nick's illustration to make that even more transparent.
3D doesn't change anything to the rendering pipeline, you just have to consider that you always have to think in pairs of images (which will cause the actual framerate to be halfed) and that VSync is a neccessity. Otherwise it's just the same is monoscopic rendering with VSync activated.
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
Can the administrator remove above post?
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
[/quote]
Have you considered the possibility you found one of the few games made in the last 3-4 years that doesn't use triple buffering? I don't think anyone is doubting that possibility, just a bit premature to to make blanket statements that its a huge problem. This is really a non-starter for a few reasons:
1) as many have already pointed out, most newer titles do use triple buffering and allow for incremental FPS between 30 and 60.
2) older games (that don't use triple buffering) are generally less demanding, so the chance of these incremental frame drops occurring below 60FPS diminishes as graphics hardware improves.
3) most people who venture into the realm of 3D Vision know and understand the benefits from increased performance and are willing to spend on top-notch hardware including SLI.
I doubt the admin will delete this post as one of the main purposes of a technical forum is to provide reference and information, and there's a lot of very good explanations and information in this thread that shouldn't be tossed away imo.
Can the administrator remove above post?
It is 100% correct but assumes that the 'pipeline' isn't affected by nvidia's tech, drivers or individual games!
This is the point I am making - and me and helifax are experimenting to find out.
Hard reset DOES flip between 30 and 60 for me. Fact.
Please delete this one as well - thanks! (and no offence grestorm - u explained that well - it's just a bit basic)
Have you considered the possibility you found one of the few games made in the last 3-4 years that doesn't use triple buffering? I don't think anyone is doubting that possibility, just a bit premature to to make blanket statements that its a huge problem. This is really a non-starter for a few reasons:
1) as many have already pointed out, most newer titles do use triple buffering and allow for incremental FPS between 30 and 60.
2) older games (that don't use triple buffering) are generally less demanding, so the chance of these incremental frame drops occurring below 60FPS diminishes as graphics hardware improves.
3) most people who venture into the realm of 3D Vision know and understand the benefits from increased performance and are willing to spend on top-notch hardware including SLI.
I doubt the admin will delete this post as one of the main purposes of a technical forum is to provide reference and information, and there's a lot of very good explanations and information in this thread that shouldn't be tossed away imo.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W