Monitor vs 3DTV and other questions. Looking for advice on possibly upgrading to 3D Vision.
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Hello, I'm considering trying out 3D Vision but I have a number of questions. I'm not too tech savvy but I have been doing some research to decide whether or not it's for me. I've been using a 37" LCD TV as my monitor for the past 4 years or so (Sharp LC37GP1U Gaming LCD @ 1080p via DVI). I mostly play MMORPGS. I usually spend about 6 months to a year on the same title, and I rarely play single player games. I'm currently playing RIFT which I read has some issues in 3D, but I'm going to be playing TERA and Blade and Soul in the future. I will be waiting until these games release before upgrading to make sure they are compatible and work well with 3D Vision.

So after learning more about 3DTV Play I found out that games are meant to be played at 720p@60Hz due to 3DTV limitations, but can be played at 1080p@24Hz but with a large performance drop. Looking at the requirements for compatible displays, it looks like the largest monitor option would be a 27" (Acer HN274H) which would allow me to play at 1080p@60hz, but I would be downsizing 10 inches from my current display. The other option I'm considering is a 37" 3DTV (looking at the new Panasonic TC-L37DT30) but I'm assuming I would have to play at 720p for it to run smoothly. Also, it says this TV is 240Hz, does that change anything? I'm not considering anything larger than a 37" mainly because I sit very close to the screen in order to read text. So my question for anyone who's experienced 3D Vision on both a 3D monitor and a 3DTV, which is ultimately the better option? It seems either way I would have to sacrifice something for the 3D effect, either resolution or screen size. Is it worth it?

Another concern I have is with eye strain and possible headaches. I am aware that long gaming sessions in 3D can cause this. I'm used to sitting very close to a bright screen for extended periods of time. Gaming sessions for me are usually around 5 hours at a time. I tried out the iZ3D Driver in anaglyph using red/cyan glasses in World of Warcraft and RIFT, and I really liked the 3D effect. I did get a slight headache after about an hour, but I'm assuming that was caused by the red and blue glow that persisted even after playing with the settings. The extra level of immersion was really impressive and I did enjoy it overall.

Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm not experienced with this technical stuff so if you could explain in simple terms that would be really helpful. Thanks! :)

PC Specs: Intel Core i7 930 OC 3.4GHz, 2 GTX 480s SLI, 256GB Samsung SSD, 6GB RAM, Liquid Cooling
Hello, I'm considering trying out 3D Vision but I have a number of questions. I'm not too tech savvy but I have been doing some research to decide whether or not it's for me. I've been using a 37" LCD TV as my monitor for the past 4 years or so (Sharp LC37GP1U Gaming LCD @ 1080p via DVI). I mostly play MMORPGS. I usually spend about 6 months to a year on the same title, and I rarely play single player games. I'm currently playing RIFT which I read has some issues in 3D, but I'm going to be playing TERA and Blade and Soul in the future. I will be waiting until these games release before upgrading to make sure they are compatible and work well with 3D Vision.



So after learning more about 3DTV Play I found out that games are meant to be played at 720p@60Hz due to 3DTV limitations, but can be played at 1080p@24Hz but with a large performance drop. Looking at the requirements for compatible displays, it looks like the largest monitor option would be a 27" (Acer HN274H) which would allow me to play at 1080p@60hz, but I would be downsizing 10 inches from my current display. The other option I'm considering is a 37" 3DTV (looking at the new Panasonic TC-L37DT30) but I'm assuming I would have to play at 720p for it to run smoothly. Also, it says this TV is 240Hz, does that change anything? I'm not considering anything larger than a 37" mainly because I sit very close to the screen in order to read text. So my question for anyone who's experienced 3D Vision on both a 3D monitor and a 3DTV, which is ultimately the better option? It seems either way I would have to sacrifice something for the 3D effect, either resolution or screen size. Is it worth it?



Another concern I have is with eye strain and possible headaches. I am aware that long gaming sessions in 3D can cause this. I'm used to sitting very close to a bright screen for extended periods of time. Gaming sessions for me are usually around 5 hours at a time. I tried out the iZ3D Driver in anaglyph using red/cyan glasses in World of Warcraft and RIFT, and I really liked the 3D effect. I did get a slight headache after about an hour, but I'm assuming that was caused by the red and blue glow that persisted even after playing with the settings. The extra level of immersion was really impressive and I did enjoy it overall.



Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm not experienced with this technical stuff so if you could explain in simple terms that would be really helpful. Thanks! :)



PC Specs: Intel Core i7 930 OC 3.4GHz, 2 GTX 480s SLI, 256GB Samsung SSD, 6GB RAM, Liquid Cooling

#1
Posted 04/30/2011 09:11 PM   
In 3D gaming, you want to maximize the immersion factor.
Therefore, the bigger screen the better because it allows a greater viewing distance for a given FOV resulting in greater immersion. For example, a 4" screen at a viewing distance of 4" will have the same FOV as a 100" screen viewed at 100", but the immersion is vastly superior with the 100" screen/distance. As far as "reading the text" the text will scale up with larger size so that's a non-factor. If you go with a HDTV, be sure to get Samsung because that's the only brand that will allow you to 3D game at native resolution via checkerboard mode. (Panasonic and the rest don't have checkerboard). Scaled 720P is super ugly so you don't want framepacking, the only mode available with Nvidia software and non-Samsung HDTV. If you go the Samsung route, be sure to D/L the owners manual if considering a 2011 model because Samsung abandoned CB in most of their 2011 models. If 2010 sammy, all 3DTVs do CB. To do native rez CB, you'll need 3D Vision because 3DTV Play doesn'tsupport CB.
In 3D gaming, you want to maximize the immersion factor.

Therefore, the bigger screen the better because it allows a greater viewing distance for a given FOV resulting in greater immersion. For example, a 4" screen at a viewing distance of 4" will have the same FOV as a 100" screen viewed at 100", but the immersion is vastly superior with the 100" screen/distance. As far as "reading the text" the text will scale up with larger size so that's a non-factor. If you go with a HDTV, be sure to get Samsung because that's the only brand that will allow you to 3D game at native resolution via checkerboard mode. (Panasonic and the rest don't have checkerboard). Scaled 720P is super ugly so you don't want framepacking, the only mode available with Nvidia software and non-Samsung HDTV. If you go the Samsung route, be sure to D/L the owners manual if considering a 2011 model because Samsung abandoned CB in most of their 2011 models. If 2010 sammy, all 3DTVs do CB. To do native rez CB, you'll need 3D Vision because 3DTV Play doesn'tsupport CB.

#2
Posted 04/30/2011 09:38 PM   
Ok so I looked up supported 3DTVS, the smallest Samsung model listed was a 40". Found the user manual for the UN40C7000WF and it does have a "checkerboard" mode. So If I purchased this TV I would not be using the 3DTV Play software and Samsung Glasses, but Rather the 3D Vision Glasses and transmitter? And I would be a able to play in 1080p as well?
Ok so I looked up supported 3DTVS, the smallest Samsung model listed was a 40". Found the user manual for the UN40C7000WF and it does have a "checkerboard" mode. So If I purchased this TV I would not be using the 3DTV Play software and Samsung Glasses, but Rather the 3D Vision Glasses and transmitter? And I would be a able to play in 1080p as well?

#3
Posted 04/30/2011 10:18 PM   
[quote name='airene' date='30 April 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1304201888' post='1232131']
Ok so I looked up supported 3DTVS, the smallest Samsung model listed was a 40". Found the user manual for the UN40C7000WF and it does have a "checkerboard" mode. So If I purchased this TV I would not be using the 3DTV Play software and Samsung Glasses, but Rather the 3D Vision Glasses and transmitter? And I would be a able to play in 1080p as well?
[/quote]
Not quite. You would use only the emitter and the USB cable from the 3D Vision kit. You would use the Samsung glasses. You would then be able to 3D game in 1920x1080 per frame, 60 fps in checkerboard mode. Gaming in native rez is critical, so I wouldn't go with any driver that forces you into framepacking mode. For the sake of completeness, you could also use iZ3D or TriDef 3D drivers, although they have their own set of issues. But they also allow native rez 3D gaming.
Finally, Samsung pretty much abandoned CB mode in 2011 so stick with a 2010 model.
[quote name='airene' date='30 April 2011 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1304201888' post='1232131']

Ok so I looked up supported 3DTVS, the smallest Samsung model listed was a 40". Found the user manual for the UN40C7000WF and it does have a "checkerboard" mode. So If I purchased this TV I would not be using the 3DTV Play software and Samsung Glasses, but Rather the 3D Vision Glasses and transmitter? And I would be a able to play in 1080p as well?



Not quite. You would use only the emitter and the USB cable from the 3D Vision kit. You would use the Samsung glasses. You would then be able to 3D game in 1920x1080 per frame, 60 fps in checkerboard mode. Gaming in native rez is critical, so I wouldn't go with any driver that forces you into framepacking mode. For the sake of completeness, you could also use iZ3D or TriDef 3D drivers, although they have their own set of issues. But they also allow native rez 3D gaming.

Finally, Samsung pretty much abandoned CB mode in 2011 so stick with a 2010 model.

#4
Posted 04/30/2011 10:36 PM   
Thank you very much, I didn't know anything about checkerboard so this puts any other 3DTV out of the question. I'd be willing to go a few inches higher to get 1080p at 60 fps since Samsung doesn't have a 37" model available. As for drivers I'm still a bit confused, using the current Nvidia Driver would force framepacking mode? So uninstalling the Nvidia Driver and using one of the 3D drivers would automatically enable checkerboard at 1080p? Sorry, I know very little about how all this works.
Thank you very much, I didn't know anything about checkerboard so this puts any other 3DTV out of the question. I'd be willing to go a few inches higher to get 1080p at 60 fps since Samsung doesn't have a 37" model available. As for drivers I'm still a bit confused, using the current Nvidia Driver would force framepacking mode? So uninstalling the Nvidia Driver and using one of the 3D drivers would automatically enable checkerboard at 1080p? Sorry, I know very little about how all this works.

#5
Posted 04/30/2011 10:50 PM   
I'm not so sure how MMOs really play in 3D. One of the problems in stereoscopic 3D is using a 2D pointer to pick out an item that appears to be 50 feet away. Point your finger up about a foot in front of your nose and try to cover up a verticle edge of a door frame with it. You can't do it! If you focus on the door frame you'll see two fingers and if you focus on your finger you'll see two door frames! The exact same thing happens when you try to select some evil critter for targetting. It's not too bad if the critter is close to you but when they are far away you have to try and click between the two images, which can be quite tricky.

I think World of Warcraft actually has a 3D pointer that solves this problem. (NVIDIA provides a 3D crosshair but that only works at the exact center of the screen.) If you normally use tab to switch between targets you'll be fine but, if you're mostly playing games where you pick targets with the mouse, you'll probably be forced into turning the 3D off a lot of the time.

TVs can't do 1080p and 60fps. It's a limitation of the HDMI standard. They think you just want to watch movies at 24fps, I guess.

Then there's also the angles. Turning your head much with the glasses on can be a little weird. 10 degrees isn't a problem but if you're sitting right up next to a wall of video, you're going to have to turn your head quite a bit to see stuff in the corners (like, say, a health bar).

Unless you also need an actual TV, you might want to consider one of the new model monitors or a projector setup.
I'm not so sure how MMOs really play in 3D. One of the problems in stereoscopic 3D is using a 2D pointer to pick out an item that appears to be 50 feet away. Point your finger up about a foot in front of your nose and try to cover up a verticle edge of a door frame with it. You can't do it! If you focus on the door frame you'll see two fingers and if you focus on your finger you'll see two door frames! The exact same thing happens when you try to select some evil critter for targetting. It's not too bad if the critter is close to you but when they are far away you have to try and click between the two images, which can be quite tricky.



I think World of Warcraft actually has a 3D pointer that solves this problem. (NVIDIA provides a 3D crosshair but that only works at the exact center of the screen.) If you normally use tab to switch between targets you'll be fine but, if you're mostly playing games where you pick targets with the mouse, you'll probably be forced into turning the 3D off a lot of the time.



TVs can't do 1080p and 60fps. It's a limitation of the HDMI standard. They think you just want to watch movies at 24fps, I guess.



Then there's also the angles. Turning your head much with the glasses on can be a little weird. 10 degrees isn't a problem but if you're sitting right up next to a wall of video, you're going to have to turn your head quite a bit to see stuff in the corners (like, say, a health bar).



Unless you also need an actual TV, you might want to consider one of the new model monitors or a projector setup.

#6
Posted 05/01/2011 01:53 AM   
I use a 46" Sony 3D Tv and i love it. I'm very familiar with the look of a high resolution display coming from a Dell 30" 2560x1600 monitor, used for 4 years, then a 1920x1200 24" before that. I find 720p in 3D wonderful, especially once everything [colors, brightness,etc] is dialed in. I find the difference between the picture quality for 1080 and 720 in 3D is not nearly as drastic as in 2D, I still haven't fully grasped why yet. On eye strain and headaches, i have now gamed for 8 plus hours straight, with not even eye strain, however everyone is different. I did hear a recommendation to take a break every 10-20 minutes and looks up,down, left, right to relax or condition your eyes, but again, i don't feel the need. As far as looking around a high fov view screen and the slight warping effect the glasses have in 3D when moving your head around: a complete non-issue for me and im happy to report I [b]do not ever[/b] notice it when in-game, this on a 46" Tv 2'8" [exactly] away from my eyes.

I'm a little bit skeptical of the claim that checkerboard on a Samsung is the absolute [b]only[/b] way to go for a couple reasons that i'll put down since they might apply to you.
1. I've not seen a single comparison shot, nothing on google.
2. Someone said it can look worse than 720p sometimes...
3. I hear a lot about significant amounts crosstalk on Samsung 2010 LCDs
4. I always found that scaled, non-native resolutions look perfectly fine apart from their lower resolution.
5. I can tolerate high amounts of jaggies, I think because i'm 34 and started gaming before Doom 1 and before AA was invented

Of course i hope to be proven wrong, soon, with screenshots!
I use a 46" Sony 3D Tv and i love it. I'm very familiar with the look of a high resolution display coming from a Dell 30" 2560x1600 monitor, used for 4 years, then a 1920x1200 24" before that. I find 720p in 3D wonderful, especially once everything [colors, brightness,etc] is dialed in. I find the difference between the picture quality for 1080 and 720 in 3D is not nearly as drastic as in 2D, I still haven't fully grasped why yet. On eye strain and headaches, i have now gamed for 8 plus hours straight, with not even eye strain, however everyone is different. I did hear a recommendation to take a break every 10-20 minutes and looks up,down, left, right to relax or condition your eyes, but again, i don't feel the need. As far as looking around a high fov view screen and the slight warping effect the glasses have in 3D when moving your head around: a complete non-issue for me and im happy to report I do not ever notice it when in-game, this on a 46" Tv 2'8" [exactly] away from my eyes.



I'm a little bit skeptical of the claim that checkerboard on a Samsung is the absolute only way to go for a couple reasons that i'll put down since they might apply to you.

1. I've not seen a single comparison shot, nothing on google.

2. Someone said it can look worse than 720p sometimes...

3. I hear a lot about significant amounts crosstalk on Samsung 2010 LCDs

4. I always found that scaled, non-native resolutions look perfectly fine apart from their lower resolution.

5. I can tolerate high amounts of jaggies, I think because i'm 34 and started gaming before Doom 1 and before AA was invented



Of course i hope to be proven wrong, soon, with screenshots!

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#7
Posted 05/01/2011 05:22 AM   
Zloth - The two MMOs I plan to play in 3D actually have very different targeting systems that don't involve tab targeting or selecting a target with the mouse. TERA is an "action MMO", rather than targeting you actually aim all of your attacks through a reticle at the center of the screen. Blade and Soul has an auto target system that automatically selects the target you are facing in combat. Again, I will be waiting until at least the end of the year to make sure that these games are fully 3D compatible, as neither of them have been released in the US yet.

I'm so used to sitting close to a large screen now that I'm afraid switching to a much smaller monitor would not be the same. Even before I had my Sharp TV I used a Viewsonic 37" at 720p, so its been a very long time since I've used an actual computer monitor. So if I can get 1080p on a 3DTV with good performance that would be the best way to go for me. I don't use my TV for anything other than internet browsing and PC gaming. When people see how close I sit the first thing they ask me is "don't you get a headache from all the camera movement being that close to the screen?" but I really never had any issue. I think I would have a pretty high tolerance for the 3D effect based on that, but I can't know for sure.

I have no way of comparing 3DTVs other than going on other people's advice who have tested 3D Vision and know a whole lot more about the 3D technology than I do. You never get any information on PC Gaming in 3D reading reviews for these TVs. I don't know anything about scaled resolutions vs checkerboard because I've always played at my TV's native resolution.
Zloth - The two MMOs I plan to play in 3D actually have very different targeting systems that don't involve tab targeting or selecting a target with the mouse. TERA is an "action MMO", rather than targeting you actually aim all of your attacks through a reticle at the center of the screen. Blade and Soul has an auto target system that automatically selects the target you are facing in combat. Again, I will be waiting until at least the end of the year to make sure that these games are fully 3D compatible, as neither of them have been released in the US yet.



I'm so used to sitting close to a large screen now that I'm afraid switching to a much smaller monitor would not be the same. Even before I had my Sharp TV I used a Viewsonic 37" at 720p, so its been a very long time since I've used an actual computer monitor. So if I can get 1080p on a 3DTV with good performance that would be the best way to go for me. I don't use my TV for anything other than internet browsing and PC gaming. When people see how close I sit the first thing they ask me is "don't you get a headache from all the camera movement being that close to the screen?" but I really never had any issue. I think I would have a pretty high tolerance for the 3D effect based on that, but I can't know for sure.



I have no way of comparing 3DTVs other than going on other people's advice who have tested 3D Vision and know a whole lot more about the 3D technology than I do. You never get any information on PC Gaming in 3D reading reviews for these TVs. I don't know anything about scaled resolutions vs checkerboard because I've always played at my TV's native resolution.

#8
Posted 05/01/2011 02:20 PM   
What's this? MMOs coming out this year other than Star Wars: TOR and Guild Wars 2?? Inconceivable! Who would dare such a thing!? <smirk>

It sounds like you're set for the targetting issue, though! Now if only SW:TOR and GW2 would work well for me.

Plenty of folks are using 3D TVs so I'm sure you'll be good. It just seems odd to me that, in the name of filling your peripheral vision with game images, you're going to drop the dots per inch and make it so you'll have to turn your head to see UI elements in the corners.
What's this? MMOs coming out this year other than Star Wars: TOR and Guild Wars 2?? Inconceivable! Who would dare such a thing!? <smirk>



It sounds like you're set for the targetting issue, though! Now if only SW:TOR and GW2 would work well for me.



Plenty of folks are using 3D TVs so I'm sure you'll be good. It just seems odd to me that, in the name of filling your peripheral vision with game images, you're going to drop the dots per inch and make it so you'll have to turn your head to see UI elements in the corners.

#9
Posted 05/01/2011 02:45 PM   
[quote name='airene' date='01 May 2011 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1304259618' post='1232304']
I have no way of comparing 3DTVs other than going on other people's advice[/quote]
Taking advice from others can be extremely misleading as illustrated by Libertine's "five reasons to avoid Samsung":

"1. I've not seen a single comparison shot, nothing on google."
Comparison shots are worthless because they are viewed on a display different from the one on which they are taken.

"2. Someone said it can look worse than 720p sometimes..."

Nobody, and I mean *NOBODY* is making this absurd claim. There is exactly one person in this forum who's life work is to make people hate Samsung displays who started this rumor. When pressed, he will admit that he has never seen a 3D game on a Samsung display yet he will go on a pathetic rant as to how bad Samsungs look. All he can do is offer "some guy said" testimony. To get a feel for the overwhelming preference of checkerboard over scaled low resolution 720P, look at the thread that explains how to access checkerboard on Samsung. That post has 290,000 views, more than all other posts in this forum *combined*. That should give you an idea of how highly valued checkerboard is. Read it for yourself, it is filled with people begging Nvidia to implement checkerboard in 3DTV Play. You won't find a single post that claims native rez 1920x1080 looks worse than scaled low rez 1280x720. You will find only post after post saying "checkerboard at last....YES!"

"3. I hear a lot about significant amounts crosstalk on Samsung 2010 LCDs"
Again, "some guy said" proof. Every display from front projectors to LEDs and plasmas has "significant amounts of crosstalk" in 3D games.

"4. I always found that scaled, non-native resolutions look perfectly fine apart from their lower resolution."
Perhaps the best reason to go native rez. Scaled low resolution images (720P) intensify the jaggies (aliasing). It's positively gross on 1920x1080 displays. But don't take my word, go to the thread that has 290,000 checkerboard views.
[quote] I don't know anything about scaled resolutions vs checkerboard because I've always played at my TV's native resolution.
[/quote]
Exactly. You play at native rez because common sense tells you it looks better. Ask Libertine if he has set his desktop resolution to 1280x720.
Not knowing any better, in Nov 2010, I bought a Sony 1920x1080 3DTV (55hx800). I was appauled by the 720P image quality offered by 3DTV Play. I was resigned because I believed that checkerboard was impossible on any display including Samsung. Then Nobsi figured out a way to use 3D Vision in checkerboard on a Samsung. Luckily I was within the return period for my Sony so I ditched it for the Samsung realizing how much better native 1920x1080 looked vs scaled 1280x720.

I respect Libertine's decision to stick with the Sony, it's a lot of trouble to return a TV set. But I knew I would never be satisfied with low rez scaled gaming, especially when there's a high rez alternative. No matter the inconvenience, it was worth it.
[quote name='airene' date='01 May 2011 - 08:20 AM' timestamp='1304259618' post='1232304']

I have no way of comparing 3DTVs other than going on other people's advice

Taking advice from others can be extremely misleading as illustrated by Libertine's "five reasons to avoid Samsung":



"1. I've not seen a single comparison shot, nothing on google."

Comparison shots are worthless because they are viewed on a display different from the one on which they are taken.



"2. Someone said it can look worse than 720p sometimes..."



Nobody, and I mean *NOBODY* is making this absurd claim. There is exactly one person in this forum who's life work is to make people hate Samsung displays who started this rumor. When pressed, he will admit that he has never seen a 3D game on a Samsung display yet he will go on a pathetic rant as to how bad Samsungs look. All he can do is offer "some guy said" testimony. To get a feel for the overwhelming preference of checkerboard over scaled low resolution 720P, look at the thread that explains how to access checkerboard on Samsung. That post has 290,000 views, more than all other posts in this forum *combined*. That should give you an idea of how highly valued checkerboard is. Read it for yourself, it is filled with people begging Nvidia to implement checkerboard in 3DTV Play. You won't find a single post that claims native rez 1920x1080 looks worse than scaled low rez 1280x720. You will find only post after post saying "checkerboard at last....YES!"



"3. I hear a lot about significant amounts crosstalk on Samsung 2010 LCDs"

Again, "some guy said" proof. Every display from front projectors to LEDs and plasmas has "significant amounts of crosstalk" in 3D games.



"4. I always found that scaled, non-native resolutions look perfectly fine apart from their lower resolution."

Perhaps the best reason to go native rez. Scaled low resolution images (720P) intensify the jaggies (aliasing). It's positively gross on 1920x1080 displays. But don't take my word, go to the thread that has 290,000 checkerboard views.

I don't know anything about scaled resolutions vs checkerboard because I've always played at my TV's native resolution.



Exactly. You play at native rez because common sense tells you it looks better. Ask Libertine if he has set his desktop resolution to 1280x720.

Not knowing any better, in Nov 2010, I bought a Sony 1920x1080 3DTV (55hx800). I was appauled by the 720P image quality offered by 3DTV Play. I was resigned because I believed that checkerboard was impossible on any display including Samsung. Then Nobsi figured out a way to use 3D Vision in checkerboard on a Samsung. Luckily I was within the return period for my Sony so I ditched it for the Samsung realizing how much better native 1920x1080 looked vs scaled 1280x720.



I respect Libertine's decision to stick with the Sony, it's a lot of trouble to return a TV set. But I knew I would never be satisfied with low rez scaled gaming, especially when there's a high rez alternative. No matter the inconvenience, it was worth it.

#10
Posted 05/01/2011 04:47 PM   
@ Roller - So you can't switch to 720p and take a screenshot and/or a checkerboard screenshot won't show the detail? Couldn't you take a screenshot in 2d 1080p, then, without moving the mouse, take another shot in 3D 1080p checkerboard without enabling AA? I would REALLY like to see this.

Im not necessarily sticking with the Sony, in fact, im looking to upgrade already since the crosstalk on many 2011 Tv's is said to be better, i just havn't seen a good explanation of checkerboard yet and some people say its half-resolution ( which would be 960x540), one guy says it can look worse at times and the consensus seems to be it looks "slightly better". I just read that HALF of the pixels in each frame are interpolated with their nearest neighbors, that could lead to some softening of the picture no? This is why i'd really like to see comparison shots, because i am concerned with picture quality and this IS important to me. But you'll have to forgive me because im VERY impressed with the 3D picture im getting at 720p.../wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />. As far as scaling, of course i don't scale my desktop, but i do scale games quite a bit since my gfx cards are never the latest ones and my resolution has been 2560x1600, but like i said, jaggies don't bother me very much, at least compared to people who insist on 32x AA...

...and again, just my opinions...

This photo seems to indicate that some of Samsung TVs arent bad at all when it comes to crosstalk:
http://img1.lesnumeriques.com/produits/16/9807/HX900-cross-grand-l.jpg
@ Roller - So you can't switch to 720p and take a screenshot and/or a checkerboard screenshot won't show the detail? Couldn't you take a screenshot in 2d 1080p, then, without moving the mouse, take another shot in 3D 1080p checkerboard without enabling AA? I would REALLY like to see this.



Im not necessarily sticking with the Sony, in fact, im looking to upgrade already since the crosstalk on many 2011 Tv's is said to be better, i just havn't seen a good explanation of checkerboard yet and some people say its half-resolution ( which would be 960x540), one guy says it can look worse at times and the consensus seems to be it looks "slightly better". I just read that HALF of the pixels in each frame are interpolated with their nearest neighbors, that could lead to some softening of the picture no? This is why i'd really like to see comparison shots, because i am concerned with picture quality and this IS important to me. But you'll have to forgive me because im VERY impressed with the 3D picture im getting at 720p.../wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />. As far as scaling, of course i don't scale my desktop, but i do scale games quite a bit since my gfx cards are never the latest ones and my resolution has been 2560x1600, but like i said, jaggies don't bother me very much, at least compared to people who insist on 32x AA...



...and again, just my opinions...



This photo seems to indicate that some of Samsung TVs arent bad at all when it comes to crosstalk:

http://img1.lesnumeriques.com/produits/16/9807/HX900-cross-grand-l.jpg

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#11
Posted 05/01/2011 07:43 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='01 May 2011 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1304278981' post='1232393']
Couldn't you take a screenshot in 2d 1080p, then, without moving the mouse, take another shot in 3D 1080p checkerboard without enabling AA? I would REALLY like to see this.[/quote]
I can take a 3D SS in checkerboard and post it. Problem is, it can be viewed only in CB mode, so all you would see is an overlapped double image on your Sony. After observing your Metro screens, I did some experiments of my own and came to the conclusion that observing in CB tends to make everything look good, almost to the extent that the mode the pic was taken in is irrelevent, all that matters is the mode in which the pic is observed.

[quote]some people say its half-resolution ( which would be 960x540), one guy says it can look worse[/quote]
Sounds like you've been reading DanielJoy's irrational rants. Checkerboard is 960x1080 per image, 1920x1080 per frame, native rez, no interpolation. Image retention of the human eye combines these two images into full rez 1920x1080 with perfect 1 to 1 mapping. The CB haters never take human physiology into account because that hurts their cause.
[quote]I just read that HALF of the pixels in each frame are interpolated with their nearest neighbors, that could lead to some softening of the picture no?[/quote]
The exact opposite is true. Checkerboard is distinctly not interpolated, that's why it looks so crisp.
[quote] the consensus seems to be it looks "slightly better". [/quote]
The consensus *OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE GAMED IN CB on A SAMSUNG* is it looks vastly better. The only people who have trashed CB are those who have never seen it. On the other hand, dozens of people have 3D gamed extensively on Samsungs in 720P framepack from Aug. 2010 through Jan. 27,2011. On Jan. 27,2011 these hordes suddenly switched to CB on their Samsungs and that's when the praise for CB began. So the praise for CB comes from all the people who have seen both CB and framepack on their Samsungs. The few posts that either trash CB outright, or, "damn with faint praise" with "slightly better" remarks are those who have never seen Samsung CB. If you have doubts, go back to and Apr.13 (I think it's page 6 of this 3D Vision sub forum) and read "HDMI1.4 checkerboard for all!" and francomg's "Nvidia, give us checkerboard!" threads. While you are reading comments, ask yourself the question "has this poster actually seen CB? Or are his comments based on resentment that he can't have it?" You won't see a post that says "Hi. I have been 3D gaming extensively on my Samsung in both scaled 720P and native rez 1080P CB. I don't see a difference." Go back even further to Jan.18 and see Bobeggy's "Nvidia, did you kill 3D Vision?" That's when the demand for CB really started.
[quote]This is why i'd really like to see comparison shots, because i am concerned with picture quality and this IS important to me.[/quote]
Static SS don't begin to show the differences. That's because in game, you get an effect knows as 'crawlies'. The scaling artifacts 'crawl' along straight diagonal edges making them especially noticeable, but of course in a snapshot there is no crawling. Also, framepacking tends to over saturate the colors making them look cartoonish, unnatural and this can make the scene look less crisp due to the blooming effect. I played various games such as Metro in both frame sequential and framepacking, both of which are called "full rez" by the CB haters. Both are 1920x1080 per eye. So there should be no difference at all because they are identical resolution. To my surprise, they looked extremely different, framepacking is processing the pixels differently. But when I compared FS to CB in-game, I could see no difference between Frame sequential and CB even though CB is 960x1080 per eye. So I used Nvidia's photo viewer to closely examine 3D SS for both FS and CB captures of the same scene in Bullet storm. By viewing left eye images of both FS and CB statically, I could find minute differences, differences that you could never notice in-game because of motion and because the LR images are intergrated together to erase the tiny differnces that are visible only when the images are seperated. Given these results, I hope that future TVs with 120 Hz 1080P capabilities, I will have the choice of frame sequential and framepacking. FS looks WAY better due to the way pixels are processed in 3D.
There's a way to see this on your Sony. In your menu there's a setting that refers to "scene". Under it you will see several options of which 'auto" is the default. Try other options and some of then show this blooming effect which can be a prob with framepacking.
[quote name='Libertine' date='01 May 2011 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1304278981' post='1232393']

Couldn't you take a screenshot in 2d 1080p, then, without moving the mouse, take another shot in 3D 1080p checkerboard without enabling AA? I would REALLY like to see this.

I can take a 3D SS in checkerboard and post it. Problem is, it can be viewed only in CB mode, so all you would see is an overlapped double image on your Sony. After observing your Metro screens, I did some experiments of my own and came to the conclusion that observing in CB tends to make everything look good, almost to the extent that the mode the pic was taken in is irrelevent, all that matters is the mode in which the pic is observed.



some people say its half-resolution ( which would be 960x540), one guy says it can look worse


Sounds like you've been reading DanielJoy's irrational rants. Checkerboard is 960x1080 per image, 1920x1080 per frame, native rez, no interpolation. Image retention of the human eye combines these two images into full rez 1920x1080 with perfect 1 to 1 mapping. The CB haters never take human physiology into account because that hurts their cause.

I just read that HALF of the pixels in each frame are interpolated with their nearest neighbors, that could lead to some softening of the picture no?


The exact opposite is true. Checkerboard is distinctly not interpolated, that's why it looks so crisp.

the consensus seems to be it looks "slightly better".


The consensus *OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE GAMED IN CB on A SAMSUNG* is it looks vastly better. The only people who have trashed CB are those who have never seen it. On the other hand, dozens of people have 3D gamed extensively on Samsungs in 720P framepack from Aug. 2010 through Jan. 27,2011. On Jan. 27,2011 these hordes suddenly switched to CB on their Samsungs and that's when the praise for CB began. So the praise for CB comes from all the people who have seen both CB and framepack on their Samsungs. The few posts that either trash CB outright, or, "damn with faint praise" with "slightly better" remarks are those who have never seen Samsung CB. If you have doubts, go back to and Apr.13 (I think it's page 6 of this 3D Vision sub forum) and read "HDMI1.4 checkerboard for all!" and francomg's "Nvidia, give us checkerboard!" threads. While you are reading comments, ask yourself the question "has this poster actually seen CB? Or are his comments based on resentment that he can't have it?" You won't see a post that says "Hi. I have been 3D gaming extensively on my Samsung in both scaled 720P and native rez 1080P CB. I don't see a difference." Go back even further to Jan.18 and see Bobeggy's "Nvidia, did you kill 3D Vision?" That's when the demand for CB really started.

This is why i'd really like to see comparison shots, because i am concerned with picture quality and this IS important to me.


Static SS don't begin to show the differences. That's because in game, you get an effect knows as 'crawlies'. The scaling artifacts 'crawl' along straight diagonal edges making them especially noticeable, but of course in a snapshot there is no crawling. Also, framepacking tends to over saturate the colors making them look cartoonish, unnatural and this can make the scene look less crisp due to the blooming effect. I played various games such as Metro in both frame sequential and framepacking, both of which are called "full rez" by the CB haters. Both are 1920x1080 per eye. So there should be no difference at all because they are identical resolution. To my surprise, they looked extremely different, framepacking is processing the pixels differently. But when I compared FS to CB in-game, I could see no difference between Frame sequential and CB even though CB is 960x1080 per eye. So I used Nvidia's photo viewer to closely examine 3D SS for both FS and CB captures of the same scene in Bullet storm. By viewing left eye images of both FS and CB statically, I could find minute differences, differences that you could never notice in-game because of motion and because the LR images are intergrated together to erase the tiny differnces that are visible only when the images are seperated. Given these results, I hope that future TVs with 120 Hz 1080P capabilities, I will have the choice of frame sequential and framepacking. FS looks WAY better due to the way pixels are processed in 3D.

There's a way to see this on your Sony. In your menu there's a setting that refers to "scene". Under it you will see several options of which 'auto" is the default. Try other options and some of then show this blooming effect which can be a prob with framepacking.

#12
Posted 05/01/2011 09:36 PM   
Libertine,
It occured to me that there's a way you can see the eqivalent of 1920x1080 CB on your Sony. You don't have CB, but you do have SBS. Get the free D/L of either iZ3D or TriDef 3D. Using these drivers on my Samsung plasma, SBS and CB are indistinguishable from each other, no difference whatever. Play Metro in framepack 720P and then in 1080P side by side, and in 1920x1080 frame sequential. Your feedback would be valuable, it would show if you see the effects of framepacking on your Sony.
Libertine,

It occured to me that there's a way you can see the eqivalent of 1920x1080 CB on your Sony. You don't have CB, but you do have SBS. Get the free D/L of either iZ3D or TriDef 3D. Using these drivers on my Samsung plasma, SBS and CB are indistinguishable from each other, no difference whatever. Play Metro in framepack 720P and then in 1080P side by side, and in 1920x1080 frame sequential. Your feedback would be valuable, it would show if you see the effects of framepacking on your Sony.

#13
Posted 05/01/2011 09:59 PM   
I moved this conversation over to your thread Roller11, so we don't highjack Airene's anymore. [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=191819&view=findpost&p=1232678"]http://forums.nvidia...dpost&p=1232678[/url]

@ Airene Btw, if you end up going the monitor route, theres a couple things that might help. One is connecting the monitor to an articulating arm attached to your desk or to a heavy base, so you could swing the monitor closer to your eyes and fill in more of your fov. The other is a freznel lens, which will make any small screen look like an IMAX screen. Its basically a magnifier. I used one over a 19" monitor a long time ago and it had the effect of making the monitor look like it was twice the size. Most office supply stores carry smaller ones your can try out to see what its like. If you do, medical supply stores will cary larger ones.
I moved this conversation over to your thread Roller11, so we don't highjack Airene's anymore. http://forums.nvidia...dpost&p=1232678



@ Airene Btw, if you end up going the monitor route, theres a couple things that might help. One is connecting the monitor to an articulating arm attached to your desk or to a heavy base, so you could swing the monitor closer to your eyes and fill in more of your fov. The other is a freznel lens, which will make any small screen look like an IMAX screen. Its basically a magnifier. I used one over a 19" monitor a long time ago and it had the effect of making the monitor look like it was twice the size. Most office supply stores carry smaller ones your can try out to see what its like. If you do, medical supply stores will cary larger ones.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#14
Posted 05/02/2011 04:45 PM   
[quote name='airene' date='30 April 2011 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1304203806' post='1232136']
As for drivers I'm still a bit confused, using the current Nvidia Driver would force framepacking mode?[/quote]
No. You can't play 3D games at all with only the geforce drivers. Using 3DTV Play will force you to 3D game in either 720P/60 framepacking, or 1080P/24 framepacking.
[quote] So uninstalling the Nvidia Driver and using one of the 3D drivers would automatically enable checkerboard at 1080p?[/quote]
No. You must use one of the geforce drivers such as 270.61 along with either 3DTV Play or 3D Vision. If you go with 3DTV Play, you will be forced to play in framepacking mode. If you go with 3D Vision, you can enable native rez checkerboard. Of course only a few 3DTVs, namely the Samsungs, have checkerboard capability. All 3DTVs have native rez SBS mode, but no Nvidia 3D software has SBS mode in games.
Of course you can always go with either iZ3D or TriDef 3D drivers, they support both SBS and CB so you can use just about any 3DTV, not just Samsung. If you go Samsung, just be sure to get a 2010 model.
[quote name='airene' date='30 April 2011 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1304203806' post='1232136']

As for drivers I'm still a bit confused, using the current Nvidia Driver would force framepacking mode?

No. You can't play 3D games at all with only the geforce drivers. Using 3DTV Play will force you to 3D game in either 720P/60 framepacking, or 1080P/24 framepacking.

So uninstalling the Nvidia Driver and using one of the 3D drivers would automatically enable checkerboard at 1080p?


No. You must use one of the geforce drivers such as 270.61 along with either 3DTV Play or 3D Vision. If you go with 3DTV Play, you will be forced to play in framepacking mode. If you go with 3D Vision, you can enable native rez checkerboard. Of course only a few 3DTVs, namely the Samsungs, have checkerboard capability. All 3DTVs have native rez SBS mode, but no Nvidia 3D software has SBS mode in games.

Of course you can always go with either iZ3D or TriDef 3D drivers, they support both SBS and CB so you can use just about any 3DTV, not just Samsung. If you go Samsung, just be sure to get a 2010 model.

#15
Posted 05/02/2011 10:58 PM   
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