Future of 3D Vision Support (Official announcement from NVIDIA)
  15 / 42    
This is my first time on the forums, but this news is enough for me to add my 2 cents to the bucket of 3d Vision users. I only started using it about 2 years ago with my 3D television. Just a few weeks ago I decided to invest in the glasses kit and 3d Vision monitor. Its been great getting my old games to work in 3D vision using the info from this forum. Even for games without fixes like Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine (works fantastic by the way with zero problems in 3D vision with dgVoodoo and 3dmigoto) I got to work because of other users posting configurations and information. Without this great community, 3d Vision would not be nearly as good. I think it will be the community long supporting it after its gone as well. Nvidia seems to have just put out this great product and then sat back and worked on other things. Now we are finally losing it. I would donate to a kickstarter if we decide to go that route. It would be great if we have a software solution going forward in the short term. For the long term I'm going to echo what someone else has already said about the hardware. If Nvidia or some other company can keep producing the emitters, glasses and monitors (unless we hack newer monitors to work) then we should be okay. I don't know if I want to join in on using the VR route though. Shutting out the world while I game is mostly impractical for me in my situation. Regardless, hopefully some kind of solution presents itself.
This is my first time on the forums, but this news is enough for me to add my 2 cents to the bucket of 3d Vision users. I only started using it about 2 years ago with my 3D television. Just a few weeks ago I decided to invest in the glasses kit and 3d Vision monitor. Its been great getting my old games to work in 3D vision using the info from this forum. Even for games without fixes like Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine (works fantastic by the way with zero problems in 3D vision with dgVoodoo and 3dmigoto) I got to work because of other users posting configurations and information.

Without this great community, 3d Vision would not be nearly as good. I think it will be the community long supporting it after its gone as well. Nvidia seems to have just put out this great product and then sat back and worked on other things. Now we are finally losing it.

I would donate to a kickstarter if we decide to go that route. It would be great if we have a software solution going forward in the short term. For the long term I'm going to echo what someone else has already said about the hardware. If Nvidia or some other company can keep producing the emitters, glasses and monitors (unless we hack newer monitors to work) then we should be okay. I don't know if I want to join in on using the VR route though. Shutting out the world while I game is mostly impractical for me in my situation. Regardless, hopefully some kind of solution presents itself.

Posted 03/13/2019 10:10 PM   
[quote="mistermorcus"]This is my first time on the forums, but this news is enough for me to add my 2 cents Shutting out the world while I game is mostly impractical for me in my situation. Regardless, hopefully some kind of solution presents itself. [/quote] That and the fact that is a bit unweildy is why Im shocked VR is taking off as much as it has. 3D all you need at least in my case is to slap on some glasses
mistermorcus said:This is my first time on the forums, but this news is enough for me to add my 2 cents Shutting out the world while I game is mostly impractical for me in my situation. Regardless, hopefully some kind of solution presents itself.


That and the fact that is a bit unweildy is why Im shocked VR is taking off as much as it has. 3D all you need at least in my case is to slap on some glasses

Posted 03/13/2019 10:37 PM   
I like to say: VR brings you inside the game, which is cool... but 3D brings the game into the real world, which might be even cooler still.
I like to say: VR brings you inside the game, which is cool... but 3D brings the game into the real world, which might be even cooler still.

Posted 03/13/2019 10:43 PM   
Well, it's spring, so it's time for our annual "3D Vision is going to die". Long time readers will remember that we celebrate spring this way every year. Unfortunately for us, this year it's actually true. With the caveat that NVidia is clearly not the be-all/end-all of 3D technology. As DarkStarSword noted we have enough experience and knowledge now that we can roll our own. Here's how I've been thinking about this. This echoes what others have posted. I'm separating out the problem into multiple time frames. 1) Short term, for the next year, maybe two years. Nothing really changes. New drivers will come out without 3D Vision support, but we can ride on the last version for at least a year. The real problem here is Win10 as a moving target that will destroy support at some point, and force feed the update to all users. Win10 force feed updates can only be deferred for a year, mostly. Somebody like Oculus might make another dumb decision to force people to a newer driver than we can use. A dual boot system can solve this temporarily. There will most likely be some high profile games that come out, that require some future driver version that has no 3D Vision Driver. The 'game-ready' drivers are sometimes required by games, even as there is no actual need. On balance, our users tend to be early adopters and care more about the most recent games, not older ones. Even as the newer games get more and more similar. This will be the biggest problem for short term, and I don't have any suggestions here. We will of course try to hack the drivers for games like CyberPunk. This also gives us a little bit of time to roll our own. 2) Medium term, two years to 5 years. In this time frame, we can expect new video cards to release with no support, Win10 will have clumsily broken the old driver, games no longer run with the old driver even on Win7, and some stupid decision at Oculus will be made that requires any VR user to run a specific newer driver that has no 3D support. For this time frame, we do have a decent, but imperfect, alternative; and that is to run Win7, with the LastDriver. In this time frame, I don't really expect to need to upgrade past an 8700K, or a 2080ti. By 5 years, this will maybe, maybe, start to be weak, but even that is unclear now that Moore's Law is broken. Certainly for the 800 or so fixes we already have, this is a completely workable solution, and is what I expect to do personally. Win7 will be deprecated, and is 'broken' on 8700K, but so what? That just means no security patches, and I really don't care for a gaming environment. I disabled that Spectre mitigation to get the performance back. The best part of this environment is actually the stability. No changes means no more capricious breakage from random OS/Driver/Game madness. Pretty much all games will still run on Win7 because its 30% of the market even today, and game developers would be foolish to ignore it. We will still be able to fix any games that remain compatible with LastDriver, but it is certain that some high-profile games will be unreachable here, without disabling their driver checks. Games might move to DX12/Vulkan, but at present I can't see this happening. There's not enough value added there for game makers to [i]require [/i]it, so I expect a DX11 path to still be supported. Only if new Xbox requires it. Unless we roll our own, at least some new games will be out of reach. However, I don't know about you, but my backlog of fully fixed 3D games is [i]already [/i]mocking me. And at least for me, every modern game that comes out just reminds me of how shallow the game industry is now. I personally find almost every modern AAA game to be boring because I've already played 5 just like them. There will be exceptions, but I can't play lame-ass exclusives on PS4 either. 3) Long term, past 5 years. Here we get into hardware problems. Projectors are going to be failing, monitors might be dying, no 3D TVs remain. VR is probably dead, although there will be lots and lots of 2nd hand headsets. Probably there will still be VR headsets for sale, but expensive, because for business use I think they've reached critical mass. In consumer electronics VR is following the exact same path as 3D. We might still have some resurgent 3D TVs, and projectors, because 3D movies are not going away, and there is a whole large library now. People are still going to want their 3D movie nights. Not impossible that we have some hardware. G-Sync monitors with 1ms GtG will very likely still work. Lightboost for ULMB is still a selling feature, and I'm sure we will have hacked the emitter by then. Your 3D Vision glasses still work, I've got a V1 pair running that are 8 years old. Assuming we have VR headsets, we can do BigScreen/VirtualDesktop or 3Dmigoto VR without trouble for DX11. For DX9, what I can say is that this is actually a really sticky problem because sharing surfaces between DX9 games and the required DX11 VR runtime has been very hard. I've done 2 different failing paths so far, I'm on my third and close to proof of concept on third. I might be alone in my interest for old DX9 games. But seriously, isn't Halo 3 (in 3D!) going to be more interesting and fun than the next Assassins Creed BlahBlah? Currently it's already possible to use the cool DarkStarSword SBS shader output for most DX11 games and drive this to VirtualDesktop or BigScreen. Setting the colors of the red/blue to black/white makes it work pretty well. Performance is terrible, but may be acceptable. Resolution and quality sucks badly, but it's playable. Setup is a huuuge pain in the ass. Your average person is simply not going to do this. But as enthusiasts we can expect this to run essentially indefinitely on a Win7+OpenVR setup. Oculus already requires Win10, so anything required past LastDriver will break them. For me personally, I'd like to see us continue to develop 3D, but on our own terms, not bound by ignorant and poorly run corporations. We have the skills and knowledge to do this, the only real question is whether we can justify the time. Within the next year of end-of-life support, this will surely become clear. Even if we decide not to Kickstarter something, we can probably do a slow-burn open-source development process. I'm predicting that NVidia won't have enough sense to do the obvious win-win of open-sourcing 3D Vision Automatic, but please keep asking for this. If you get Jensen on the horn, bring this up. Ask the support people for it.
Well, it's spring, so it's time for our annual "3D Vision is going to die". Long time readers will remember that we celebrate spring this way every year. Unfortunately for us, this year it's actually true.

With the caveat that NVidia is clearly not the be-all/end-all of 3D technology. As DarkStarSword noted we have enough experience and knowledge now that we can roll our own.


Here's how I've been thinking about this. This echoes what others have posted. I'm separating out the problem into multiple time frames.

1) Short term, for the next year, maybe two years.

Nothing really changes. New drivers will come out without 3D Vision support, but we can ride on the last version for at least a year. The real problem here is Win10 as a moving target that will destroy support at some point, and force feed the update to all users. Win10 force feed updates can only be deferred for a year, mostly. Somebody like Oculus might make another dumb decision to force people to a newer driver than we can use. A dual boot system can solve this temporarily.

There will most likely be some high profile games that come out, that require some future driver version that has no 3D Vision Driver. The 'game-ready' drivers are sometimes required by games, even as there is no actual need. On balance, our users tend to be early adopters and care more about the most recent games, not older ones. Even as the newer games get more and more similar. This will be the biggest problem for short term, and I don't have any suggestions here. We will of course try to hack the drivers for games like CyberPunk.

This also gives us a little bit of time to roll our own.


2) Medium term, two years to 5 years.

In this time frame, we can expect new video cards to release with no support, Win10 will have clumsily broken the old driver, games no longer run with the old driver even on Win7, and some stupid decision at Oculus will be made that requires any VR user to run a specific newer driver that has no 3D support.

For this time frame, we do have a decent, but imperfect, alternative; and that is to run Win7, with the LastDriver. In this time frame, I don't really expect to need to upgrade past an 8700K, or a 2080ti. By 5 years, this will maybe, maybe, start to be weak, but even that is unclear now that Moore's Law is broken. Certainly for the 800 or so fixes we already have, this is a completely workable solution, and is what I expect to do personally.

Win7 will be deprecated, and is 'broken' on 8700K, but so what? That just means no security patches, and I really don't care for a gaming environment. I disabled that Spectre mitigation to get the performance back. The best part of this environment is actually the stability. No changes means no more capricious breakage from random OS/Driver/Game madness. Pretty much all games will still run on Win7 because its 30% of the market even today, and game developers would be foolish to ignore it. We will still be able to fix any games that remain compatible with LastDriver, but it is certain that some high-profile games will be unreachable here, without disabling their driver checks.

Games might move to DX12/Vulkan, but at present I can't see this happening. There's not enough value added there for game makers to require it, so I expect a DX11 path to still be supported. Only if new Xbox requires it.

Unless we roll our own, at least some new games will be out of reach. However, I don't know about you, but my backlog of fully fixed 3D games is already mocking me. And at least for me, every modern game that comes out just reminds me of how shallow the game industry is now. I personally find almost every modern AAA game to be boring because I've already played 5 just like them. There will be exceptions, but I can't play lame-ass exclusives on PS4 either.


3) Long term, past 5 years.

Here we get into hardware problems. Projectors are going to be failing, monitors might be dying, no 3D TVs remain. VR is probably dead, although there will be lots and lots of 2nd hand headsets. Probably there will still be VR headsets for sale, but expensive, because for business use I think they've reached critical mass. In consumer electronics VR is following the exact same path as 3D.

We might still have some resurgent 3D TVs, and projectors, because 3D movies are not going away, and there is a whole large library now. People are still going to want their 3D movie nights. Not impossible that we have some hardware. G-Sync monitors with 1ms GtG will very likely still work. Lightboost for ULMB is still a selling feature, and I'm sure we will have hacked the emitter by then. Your 3D Vision glasses still work, I've got a V1 pair running that are 8 years old.

Assuming we have VR headsets, we can do BigScreen/VirtualDesktop or 3Dmigoto VR without trouble for DX11.

For DX9, what I can say is that this is actually a really sticky problem because sharing surfaces between DX9 games and the required DX11 VR runtime has been very hard. I've done 2 different failing paths so far, I'm on my third and close to proof of concept on third. I might be alone in my interest for old DX9 games. But seriously, isn't Halo 3 (in 3D!) going to be more interesting and fun than the next Assassins Creed BlahBlah?

Currently it's already possible to use the cool DarkStarSword SBS shader output for most DX11 games and drive this to VirtualDesktop or BigScreen. Setting the colors of the red/blue to black/white makes it work pretty well. Performance is terrible, but may be acceptable. Resolution and quality sucks badly, but it's playable. Setup is a huuuge pain in the ass. Your average person is simply not going to do this. But as enthusiasts we can expect this to run essentially indefinitely on a Win7+OpenVR setup. Oculus already requires Win10, so anything required past LastDriver will break them.


For me personally, I'd like to see us continue to develop 3D, but on our own terms, not bound by ignorant and poorly run corporations. We have the skills and knowledge to do this, the only real question is whether we can justify the time. Within the next year of end-of-life support, this will surely become clear.

Even if we decide not to Kickstarter something, we can probably do a slow-burn open-source development process.

I'm predicting that NVidia won't have enough sense to do the obvious win-win of open-sourcing 3D Vision Automatic, but please keep asking for this. If you get Jensen on the horn, bring this up. Ask the support people for it.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

Posted 03/13/2019 10:48 PM   
W8.1 is also an option isn't it? AFAIK, it worked well with 3D Vision
W8.1 is also an option isn't it?

AFAIK, it worked well with 3D Vision

Posted 03/13/2019 10:56 PM   
Thanks for this bo3b _ I think you have a very clear and accurate vision of what the three terms will look like, and I agree with you on your backlog/sameness of modern games comments. When I purchased my new rig a few weeks back, I figured I would eventually go the W7/W10 dual boot route. Between the at-death's-door announcement and the fact that I am finding that some of my favorite older games (Shadow Complex, Xmen Origins: Wolverine, Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb, etc.) are not kicking in in 3DV on W10/latest drivers, I think I know what I'll be doing this weekend. And again, to all that would be doing the work in helping to extend the life of 3DV, I will support the efforts financially... with a higher priority given than to any new games coming down the pipe.
Thanks for this bo3b _ I think you have a very clear and accurate vision of what the three terms will look like, and I agree with you on your backlog/sameness of modern games comments.

When I purchased my new rig a few weeks back, I figured I would eventually go the W7/W10 dual boot route.

Between the at-death's-door announcement and the fact that I am finding that some of my favorite older games (Shadow Complex, Xmen Origins: Wolverine, Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb, etc.) are not kicking in in 3DV on W10/latest drivers, I think I know what I'll be doing this weekend.

And again, to all that would be doing the work in helping to extend the life of 3DV, I will support the efforts financially... with a higher priority given than to any new games coming down the pipe.

Posted 03/13/2019 11:08 PM   
I understand that Nvidia does not have any interest in supporting 3D vision anymore. But they should be able to leave some kind of backdoor solution for us to be able to keep using the tech. Even as new games come out and not completely shut us out as new Drivers/hardware stars coming out.
I understand that Nvidia does not have any interest in supporting 3D vision anymore. But they should be able to leave some kind of backdoor solution for us to be able to keep using the tech. Even as new games come out and not completely shut us out as new Drivers/hardware stars coming out.

Posted 03/13/2019 11:27 PM   
I have noticed that only certain drivers fully work with Windows 10 and 3D Version the best ones are now 417.71 419.34 VK Dev Edition
I have noticed that only certain drivers fully work with Windows 10 and 3D Version the best ones are now

417.71
419.34 VK Dev Edition

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

Posted 03/13/2019 11:36 PM   
[quote="bo3b"]Well, it's spring, so it's time for our annual "3D Vision is going to die". Long time readers will remember that we celebrate spring this way every year.[/quote] I laughed for hard at this one :)) Yes, I think it's the 8th or even 9th spring, I read something like this :)) You know what they say... :P [quote="D-Man11"]W8.1 is also an option isn't it? AFAIK, it worked well with 3D Vision[/quote] The what now? Never heard of it. I only know of a few Windows OS-es: Win95, Win98, WinXP, Win7 and Win10. Were there "other" in between ?! ^_^
bo3b said:Well, it's spring, so it's time for our annual "3D Vision is going to die". Long time readers will remember that we celebrate spring this way every year.


I laughed for hard at this one :)) Yes, I think it's the 8th or even 9th spring, I read something like this :))

You know what they say... :P

D-Man11 said:W8.1 is also an option isn't it?
AFAIK, it worked well with 3D Vision


The what now? Never heard of it. I only know of a few Windows OS-es: Win95, Win98, WinXP, Win7 and Win10.
Were there "other" in between ?! ^_^

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

Posted 03/13/2019 11:47 PM   
[quote="bo3b"] I'm predicting that NVidia won't have enough sense to do the obvious win-win of open-sourcing 3D Vision Automatic, but please keep asking for this. If you get Jensen on the horn, bring this up. Ask the support people for it.[/quote] I suggest we do everything in our power to try and hammer this point home to nvidia. I'll personally be writing up something and submitting it to them/support. We may be a small user base relatively speaking but if we all pitch in it might register for them somewhere.
bo3b said:
I'm predicting that NVidia won't have enough sense to do the obvious win-win of open-sourcing 3D Vision Automatic, but please keep asking for this. If you get Jensen on the horn, bring this up. Ask the support people for it.


I suggest we do everything in our power to try and hammer this point home to nvidia. I'll personally be writing up something and submitting it to them/support. We may be a small user base relatively speaking but if we all pitch in it might register for them somewhere.

i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
ASUS Turbo 2080TI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
ASUS Z97-WS3D
Surround ASUS Rog Swift PG278Q(R), 2x PG278Q (yes it works)
Obutto R3volution.
Windows 10 pro 64x (Windows 7 Dual boot)

Posted 03/14/2019 12:16 AM   
I will certainly be writing to NVidia as well, 3D gaming has been part of my life for almost 20 years going back to the ELSA days. I am thankful to all of the fixers and this community more than most would ever know. I will help in anyway I am able. Not sure many of you know, but there is a Win10 version that is around for business that is called LTSB which stands for "long term service branch". This was developed for businesses that did not want to have to deal with constant version updates every quarter or half year. The only thing that is really missing from Win10 LTSB is the Microsoft Store which I don't think will hurt anyone's feelings here. LTSB is on the 1607 version of Win10 and has a 10 year support cycle with security and patching. May be something to consider for a stable platform.
I will certainly be writing to NVidia as well, 3D gaming has been part of my life for almost 20 years going back to the ELSA days. I am thankful to all of the fixers and this community more than most would ever know. I will help in anyway I am able.

Not sure many of you know, but there is a Win10 version that is around for business that is called LTSB which stands for "long term service branch". This was developed for businesses that did not want to have to deal with constant version updates every quarter or half year. The only thing that is really missing from Win10 LTSB is the Microsoft Store which I don't think will hurt anyone's feelings here. LTSB is on the 1607 version of Win10 and has a 10 year support cycle with security and patching. May be something to consider for a stable platform.

Intel 7700k @ 4.2Ghz / 32GB @ 3200
Asus Z270 / 2 x Evga 1070
4 x Samsung 840 Raid 0
4 x Samsung 850 Pro Raid 0
Samsung 950 Pro
Epson 5040UB 3DTVPlay

Posted 03/14/2019 12:24 AM   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8.1 I know W 8.0 was a bit of a mess, but W 8.1 was pretty much problem free from what I read here on the forums. Windows 8.1 Extended Support stops on January 10, 2023 if someone is worried about W7 support ending from MS. Plus W8.1 has that box that you tic in the Screen Resolution tab for 3D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8.1

I know W 8.0 was a bit of a mess, but W 8.1 was pretty much problem free from what I read here on the forums.

Windows 8.1 Extended Support stops on January 10, 2023 if someone is worried about W7 support ending from MS.

Plus W8.1 has that box that you tic in the Screen Resolution tab for 3D

Posted 03/14/2019 12:28 AM   
Isn't Microsoft changing that, though? Like - support the spring update for a year and the fall update for two or three years?
Isn't Microsoft changing that, though? Like - support the spring update for a year and the fall update for two or three years?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.

-- Doctor Who, "Face of Evil"

Posted 03/14/2019 12:28 AM   
[quote="Zloth"]Isn't Microsoft changing that, though? Like - support the spring update for a year and the fall update for two or three years?[/quote] This has all the lifecycle information for all Versions of Win10 including LTSB https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet
Zloth said:Isn't Microsoft changing that, though? Like - support the spring update for a year and the fall update for two or three years?


This has all the lifecycle information for all Versions of Win10 including LTSB


https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

Intel 7700k @ 4.2Ghz / 32GB @ 3200
Asus Z270 / 2 x Evga 1070
4 x Samsung 840 Raid 0
4 x Samsung 850 Pro Raid 0
Samsung 950 Pro
Epson 5040UB 3DTVPlay

Posted 03/14/2019 12:36 AM   
I read W7 was getting extended support via a paid fee that doubles each year. I think $50, then 100 and 200.
I read W7 was getting extended support via a paid fee that doubles each year. I think $50, then 100 and 200.

Posted 03/14/2019 12:37 AM   
  15 / 42    
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