Is toyification just the effect of hyper stereo?
We have various different screen sizes. A depth slider. The ability to change convergence most of the time but very little Control or ways to measure how close the in-game Eye separation is to a normal human. Most other 3D work is working with human ocular distances for the cameras. One notable exception is the stop motion movie Coraline which used the ocular distance of the dolls. On the other hand I wouldn't call hyperstereo photography mainstream but neither is 3D macro photography. Did some calculations aimed at Portal 2 with 90 fov. Assuming my viewing distance is 30cm while playing I set the convergence to match. Given my 27" monitor 50% depth results in about 6.5cm camera distance while 100% depth would produce hyperstereo. I have no means of trying the following but setting 1m convergence which I don't know if it's at all usable would also stay around 50% depth to keep cameras at occular distance. Cutting convergence in half to 50cm brings depth to 100%. As cranking either convergence or depth pushes towards hyperstereo there is definitelly something in common between the two. Hyperstereo is so good at providing depth were normally it would be flat. When photographing large Buildings in 3D hyperstereo is often used otherwise the image will be pretty flat. Are people getting used to and expecting hyper stereo?
We have various different screen sizes. A depth slider. The ability to change convergence most of the time but very little Control or ways to measure how close the in-game Eye separation is to a normal human.

Most other 3D work is working with human ocular distances for the cameras. One notable exception is the stop motion movie Coraline which used the ocular distance of the dolls.

On the other hand I wouldn't call hyperstereo photography mainstream but neither is 3D macro photography.

Did some calculations aimed at Portal 2 with 90 fov. Assuming my viewing distance is 30cm while playing I set the convergence to match. Given my 27" monitor 50% depth results in about 6.5cm camera distance while 100% depth would produce hyperstereo.

I have no means of trying the following but setting 1m convergence which I don't know if it's at all usable would also stay around 50% depth to keep cameras at occular distance. Cutting convergence in half to 50cm brings depth to 100%.

As cranking either convergence or depth pushes towards hyperstereo there is definitelly something in common between the two. Hyperstereo is so good at providing depth were normally it would be flat. When photographing large Buildings in 3D hyperstereo is often used otherwise the image will be pretty flat. Are people getting used to and expecting hyper stereo?

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#1
Posted 08/18/2013 08:21 PM   
Higher convergence brings the 3D scene further out of the monitor towards you. Since the objects don't get larger as they get closer (as they would in real life) your brain interprets that as the objects being smaller versions of themselves. Enough of that and you get toys. I always play at 100% depth and just enough convergence to give it a decent 3D'ness. I like to keep the scale of the objects as large as possible in game. My way is definitely not the norm based on what I read in here.
Higher convergence brings the 3D scene further out of the monitor towards you. Since the objects don't get larger as they get closer (as they would in real life) your brain interprets that as the objects being smaller versions of themselves. Enough of that and you get toys.

I always play at 100% depth and just enough convergence to give it a decent 3D'ness. I like to keep the scale of the objects as large as possible in game. My way is definitely not the norm based on what I read in here.

#2
Posted 08/19/2013 02:36 PM   
I'm using Mirror's Edge as an example: The fov is 90 My screen is 27" and 45cm away I set the convergence Point in-game at the furthest finger of Faith which is approx 45cm away to match. I calculated that 35% depth would make the in-game camera spacing approx 6.5cm [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img43/8919/hy6m.jpg[/IMG] Just to prove my point I exaggerate the settings below: 100% depth 4-5m convergence distance approx [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img546/896/fgkw.jpg[/IMG] There is no way the cameras are still inside Faith's head we are clearly talking about hyper stereo. And because some people use higher settings than in my first picture I would say hyper stereo is common.
I'm using Mirror's Edge as an example:

The fov is 90
My screen is 27" and 45cm away
I set the convergence Point in-game at the furthest finger of Faith which is approx 45cm away to match.

I calculated that 35% depth would make the in-game camera spacing approx 6.5cm
Image

Just to prove my point I exaggerate the settings below:
100% depth
4-5m convergence distance approx
Image
There is no way the cameras are still inside Faith's head we are clearly talking about hyper stereo.

And because some people use higher settings than in my first picture I would say hyper stereo is common.

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#3
Posted 08/19/2013 04:11 PM   
I don't think hyper stereo to that extent is common. With that much difference between the two images, I don't think anyone can actually view that as a 3d image.
I don't think hyper stereo to that extent is common. With that much difference between the two images, I don't think anyone can actually view that as a 3d image.

#4
Posted 08/19/2013 04:28 PM   
If you look at the info in my sig there are a couple of articles about toyification. I like a little of the effect as I find it adds 'definition' but could never game push convergence as high as you have it set. Not every game is playable that way.
If you look at the info in my sig there are a couple of articles about toyification. I like a little of the effect as I find it adds 'definition' but could never game push convergence as high as you have it set. Not every game is playable that way.

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#5
Posted 08/19/2013 06:31 PM   
[img]https://forums.geforce.com/avatars/100/1857307_3b41a481c945d0819d61320aca4ceed1.jpg[/img] ... I couldn't resist. :)
Image

... I couldn't resist. :)
#6
Posted 08/19/2013 06:47 PM   
My example was constrained by my gaming setup. I chose to match convergence with viewing distance. I could have played with 13cm convergence and 100% depth and still get the same camera separation. In the second image the camera distance was > 2m. Both increasing the convergence and depth increases the in-game eye separation eventually bringing it into the land of hyperstereo. The only process that Changes between high 3D settings and low 3D settings is the in-game camera separation. From my perspective it seems that when the only thing changing is eye-separation amd thus remdering in hyperstereo. As far as I can tell the relationship is as follows: Toyification involves hyperstereo which is applied with 100% depth and high but playable convergence. At one point the game becomes unplayable but it is still applying hyperstereo. 100% depth maximizes the depth seen by the player. Hyperstereo amplifies the 3D effect beyond normal 6,5cm camera distance to give improved depth to more distant object. Hyperstereo is usually applied when sterephotographing very large objects that would appear flat using normal camera separation. Google for some nice sbs hyperstereo images and notice how even distant objects get significant stereo separation.
My example was constrained by my gaming setup. I chose to match convergence with viewing distance.

I could have played with 13cm convergence and 100% depth and still get the same camera separation.

In the second image the camera distance was > 2m.

Both increasing the convergence and depth increases the in-game eye separation eventually bringing it into the land of hyperstereo. The only process that Changes between high 3D settings and low 3D settings is the in-game camera separation. From my perspective it seems that when the only thing changing is eye-separation amd thus remdering in hyperstereo.

As far as I can tell the relationship is as follows:
Toyification involves hyperstereo which is applied with 100% depth and high but playable convergence.
At one point the game becomes unplayable but it is still applying hyperstereo.

100% depth maximizes the depth seen by the player. Hyperstereo amplifies the 3D effect beyond normal 6,5cm camera distance to give improved depth to more distant object.
Hyperstereo is usually applied when sterephotographing very large objects that would appear flat using normal camera separation.

Google for some nice sbs hyperstereo images and notice how even distant objects get significant stereo separation.

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#7
Posted 08/19/2013 08:44 PM   
The basic principle of toyification seems extremely uncomplicated to me: People on a monitor are about 15cm tall. In 2D, the image is too abstract for your brain to take much notice of their tinyness. But the more realistic the 3D becomes, the more your brain is likely to perceive it as a REAL object, and start to notice that it's only 15cm tall. Convergence affects this in particular, because objects that pop out of the screen seem to inhabit *real physical space* more convincingly than objects in the distance. Convergence doesn't *create* toyification, since the figures were always tiny. It simply makes their tinyness more immediately apparent. I'm sure there are plenty of other factors and subtleties that affect it, such as what Drayth pointed out. But I believe that the core principle of toyification is pretty straightforward: Figures on a monitor are tiny, and 3D popout helps your brain realise just how tiny they are.
The basic principle of toyification seems extremely uncomplicated to me:

People on a monitor are about 15cm tall. In 2D, the image is too abstract for your brain to take much notice of their tinyness. But the more realistic the 3D becomes, the more your brain is likely to perceive it as a REAL object, and start to notice that it's only 15cm tall.

Convergence affects this in particular, because objects that pop out of the screen seem to inhabit *real physical space* more convincingly than objects in the distance. Convergence doesn't *create* toyification, since the figures were always tiny. It simply makes their tinyness more immediately apparent.

I'm sure there are plenty of other factors and subtleties that affect it, such as what Drayth pointed out. But I believe that the core principle of toyification is pretty straightforward: Figures on a monitor are tiny, and 3D popout helps your brain realise just how tiny they are.

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#8
Posted 08/20/2013 12:43 AM   
If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms lenght that person will also be tiny. If you've ever been inside a small aeroplane you will probably at some Point experience real World toyification due to the low altitude. I don't know if it is a rare thing. I would actually like to see just a single screenshot that has achieved toyification taken on a computer monitor setup. I kind of want to see the effect to be able to discuss it in depth. If you are able to produce an example of toyification without relying on hyperstereo that would be really interesting. toyification != hyperstereo toyification => hyperstereo (implies) Are both of these always true or are there exceptions.
If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms lenght that person will also be tiny.

If you've ever been inside a small aeroplane you will probably at some Point experience real World toyification due to the low altitude. I don't know if it is a rare thing.

I would actually like to see just a single screenshot that has achieved toyification taken on a computer monitor setup. I kind of want to see the effect to be able to discuss it in depth.

If you are able to produce an example of toyification without relying on hyperstereo that would be really interesting.

toyification != hyperstereo
toyification => hyperstereo (implies)
Are both of these always true or are there exceptions.

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#9
Posted 08/20/2013 01:08 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms length that person will also be tiny.[/quote]Yeah, but the person is 10m away, and your brain knows that. Whereas a game character popping out of the screen appears to be 30cm away from you. It's entirely logical that it would look like a toy. I mean, it's a man, who is 15cm tall, and is standing right under your nose.....of course he's going to look like a toy. I probably don't really understand what you mean by hyperstereo, but I doubt you need hyper- anything or extremes of any kind to achieve toyification, since it's a perfectly natural phenomenon: convince the brain that there's a tiny man standing in front of you, and it will naturally perceive it as a tiny man (ie. a toy). A little bit of convergence seems to do the trick in many cases. It's not rocket science.
Flugan said:If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms length that person will also be tiny.
Yeah, but the person is 10m away, and your brain knows that.

Whereas a game character popping out of the screen appears to be 30cm away from you. It's entirely logical that it would look like a toy. I mean, it's a man, who is 15cm tall, and is standing right under your nose.....of course he's going to look like a toy.

I probably don't really understand what you mean by hyperstereo, but I doubt you need hyper- anything or extremes of any kind to achieve toyification, since it's a perfectly natural phenomenon: convince the brain that there's a tiny man standing in front of you, and it will naturally perceive it as a tiny man (ie. a toy). A little bit of convergence seems to do the trick in many cases. It's not rocket science.

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#10
Posted 08/20/2013 03:00 AM   
[quote="Flugan"] [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img546/896/fgkw.jpg[/IMG] [/quote] Boy am I happy I did that "final" update[two "finals" lol]... shadows would of been a black smear in between the two models lol.
Flugan said:
Image


Boy am I happy I did that "final" update[two "finals" lol]... shadows would of been a black smear in between the two models lol.

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#11
Posted 08/20/2013 03:24 AM   
I think it's important to understand that stereoscopic vision has a certain fixed range. It's most intense up close, because each eye gets a very unique view. Right in front of our faces, the 6.5" separation between our eyes makes a big difference in what each eye sees. This is why toyification gives better definition, there are in fact more details to be seen when the brain combines the two images. The further away you go, the less the difference there is between what our eyes see. It decays exponentially. The 6.5" separation becomes less and less significant. The limit of stereoscopic vision is around 200 yards. Beyond that, our left and right eyes see the same thing, and all our stereo vision is good for is to confirm that "yes indeed, those buildings and mountains are at least 200 yards away (in other words, at infinity)!" In gaming, if we're going for realism, that's important information and we want it to look like that. For toyification, we just need to move everything forward into the more effective range of our stereo vision. If 6.5" is limiting, we can just move the "eyes," or in reality the cameras. We can move them so far apart that the left and right cameras can take relatively unique pictures of a far off mountain. When we then reproduce the images on a 3D screen that is calibrated for our 6.5" separated eyes, we see the image as if we were giants. Except we aren't giants, so it feels more like the scene just got smaller. (It's important to note that the separation of the cameras and how the monitor separates the two images on the screen are two different things. For 3D Vision, my understanding is that depth essentially calibrates the monitor. Your eyes and screen size are not going to change, and I think that's why it's a global setting. Meanwhile convergence lets you adjust the separation of the cameras in the game, and that's why this setting is saved on a game by game basis.) [quote="Volnaiskra"][quote="Flugan"]If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms length that person will also be tiny.[/quote]Yeah, but the person is 10m away, and your brain knows that. Whereas a game character popping out of the screen appears to be 30cm away from you. It's entirely logical that it would look like a toy. I mean, it's a man, who is 15cm tall, and is standing right under your nose.....of course he's going to look like a toy.[/quote] I would also add that we're getting a more detailed image of the small man too. The left eye gets a good look at the guy's left side, your right eye gets a good look at his right side, and our brains combine the details. If the guy is 10m away, Both eyes get almost the same straight on view and there's almost no cumulative effect.
I think it's important to understand that stereoscopic vision has a certain fixed range. It's most intense up close, because each eye gets a very unique view. Right in front of our faces, the 6.5" separation between our eyes makes a big difference in what each eye sees. This is why toyification gives better definition, there are in fact more details to be seen when the brain combines the two images.

The further away you go, the less the difference there is between what our eyes see. It decays exponentially. The 6.5" separation becomes less and less significant. The limit of stereoscopic vision is around 200 yards. Beyond that, our left and right eyes see the same thing, and all our stereo vision is good for is to confirm that "yes indeed, those buildings and mountains are at least 200 yards away (in other words, at infinity)!" In gaming, if we're going for realism, that's important information and we want it to look like that.

For toyification, we just need to move everything forward into the more effective range of our stereo vision. If 6.5" is limiting, we can just move the "eyes," or in reality the cameras. We can move them so far apart that the left and right cameras can take relatively unique pictures of a far off mountain. When we then reproduce the images on a 3D screen that is calibrated for our 6.5" separated eyes, we see the image as if we were giants. Except we aren't giants, so it feels more like the scene just got smaller.

(It's important to note that the separation of the cameras and how the monitor separates the two images on the screen are two different things. For 3D Vision, my understanding is that depth essentially calibrates the monitor. Your eyes and screen size are not going to change, and I think that's why it's a global setting. Meanwhile convergence lets you adjust the separation of the cameras in the game, and that's why this setting is saved on a game by game basis.)

Volnaiskra said:
Flugan said:If you measure a persons height who is standing 10m away using your hands at arms length that person will also be tiny.
Yeah, but the person is 10m away, and your brain knows that.

Whereas a game character popping out of the screen appears to be 30cm away from you. It's entirely logical that it would look like a toy. I mean, it's a man, who is 15cm tall, and is standing right under your nose.....of course he's going to look like a toy.


I would also add that we're getting a more detailed image of the small man too. The left eye gets a good look at the guy's left side, your right eye gets a good look at his right side, and our brains combine the details. If the guy is 10m away, Both eyes get almost the same straight on view and there's almost no cumulative effect.

#12
Posted 08/20/2013 06:54 AM   
Great explanations Airion and Volnaiskra :)
Great explanations Airion and Volnaiskra :)

#13
Posted 08/20/2013 08:00 AM   
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