Nvidia Ground Loop. Noise under load.
  4 / 5    
OK. I took the earth pin off an old extension cable and all the noise disappeared. Literally silent. So now I know how to fix it dangerously, is there a way of fixing it safely? Will an RCD plug work or does that work off the ground connection? Remember I'm in the UK where we have a 3 pin plug. Looks like nvidia need to test their cards in the UK. Talk about a bad design!
OK. I took the earth pin off an old extension cable and all the noise disappeared.
Literally silent.
So now I know how to fix it dangerously, is there a way of fixing it safely?

Will an RCD plug work or does that work off the ground connection?
Remember I'm in the UK where we have a 3 pin plug.

Looks like nvidia need to test their cards in the UK. Talk about a bad design!

#46
Posted 07/06/2017 05:55 PM   
Can anyone advise me on this please? Is there a safe fix for my issue now I have discovered a workaround? (albeit dangerous) Cheers.
Can anyone advise me on this please?
Is there a safe fix for my issue now I have discovered a workaround? (albeit dangerous)
Cheers.

#47
Posted 07/08/2017 01:31 PM   
If your properly does not have earthed cabling atleast here in EU what they do is connect The ground to zero. But this needs to be the zero not the phase L. And i don't know if it needs to be done from the electronic closer Also, Ask your local electricians. Buing and monster extension power cable box could Also help. I remember when i liveä in an old building that had only one phase electicity the monster power cable extension Box eliminated and yellowish tint from my projectors white. Been using it since 2005
If your properly does not have earthed cabling atleast here in EU what they do is connect The ground to zero.
But this needs to be the zero not the phase L.
And i don't know if it needs to be done from the electronic closer Also,
Ask your local electricians.
Buing and monster extension power cable box could Also help.
I remember when i liveä in an old building that had only one phase electicity the monster power cable extension
Box eliminated and yellowish tint from my projectors white.
Been using it since 2005

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#48
Posted 07/08/2017 08:18 PM   
[quote="GibsonRed"]Can anyone advise me on this please? Is there a safe fix for my issue now I have discovered a workaround? (albeit dangerous) Cheers.[/quote] Just pulling the ground pin on the one side should be sufficient, and not dangerous. The reason you have a ground loop is because your connections have somehow made two grounds. By killing one of them, you'll still have a ground that is connected in some other part of the chain. I'm not clear on exactly how all your gear is connected. If you are still concerned, you can make a more clear ground chain, by connecting the back panel/chassis grounds for all your equipment, so that the path is clear. Work upstream from your known good grounded equipment.
GibsonRed said:Can anyone advise me on this please?
Is there a safe fix for my issue now I have discovered a workaround? (albeit dangerous)
Cheers.

Just pulling the ground pin on the one side should be sufficient, and not dangerous.

The reason you have a ground loop is because your connections have somehow made two grounds. By killing one of them, you'll still have a ground that is connected in some other part of the chain.

I'm not clear on exactly how all your gear is connected.


If you are still concerned, you can make a more clear ground chain, by connecting the back panel/chassis grounds for all your equipment, so that the path is clear. Work upstream from your known good grounded equipment.

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#49
Posted 07/10/2017 11:19 PM   
Thanks for the replies. I guess there's nothing I can do but lift the ground. Nvidias EMI must be off the charts when the gfx cards are underload. I found this Ebtech HumX elimiator adaptor that looks like it would work, but it's only available in the states and they don't do a UK one.... https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-Voltage-Filter/dp/B0002E4YI8 They do a version that lifts the ground on balanced speaker cables but I have 11 speakers in my setup so would get ridiculously expensive as I'd need two of them....... https://www.amazon.co.uk/EBTECH-HE-8-XLR-Hum-Eliminator-XLR/dp/B001TDKUB6/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1500044105&sr=1-1&keywords=ebtech+hum+8+xlr I've toyed with the idea of a isolating power transformer but i'm not sure they would work.... https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Luggage/Goldsource-ST-1000-1000-Watt-Step-Voltage-Converter/B00AAWODNI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_23_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WZJYCAAP9PY1MB5DQG1E Maybe if I used one of the isolating transformers then used the hum X American plug jobbie on it? This is getting ridiculous though. Surely NVidia have to work on better shielding??? Looking at the problem from another angle, does anyone know of a soundcard that outputs to HDMI that supports dolby atmos and preferably HDCP 2.2? With PC audio are we limited to NVidias noisy ass bitstreaming? My USB RME Fireface soundcard had balanced outputs and was silent. No atmos or bitstreaming on that that though! Any advice, tips, suggestions appreciated! :D I've got an electrician coming round to make me an extension cable with a switch on it to lift the ground when required and check for continuity and make sure my case isn't constantly live when i'm lifting the ground. My 10 year old son likes to use my PC and don't want to take any risks! Is there a double insulated PC case you can buy so lifting the ground would be safe? Could I cover all the metal parts of my case with electrical tape? It's not good lifting the power ground on a watercooled PC! :D Thanks.
Thanks for the replies.
I guess there's nothing I can do but lift the ground. Nvidias EMI must be off the charts when the gfx cards are underload.

I found this Ebtech HumX elimiator adaptor that looks like it would work, but it's only available in the states and they don't do a UK one....

https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-Voltage-Filter/dp/B0002E4YI8

They do a version that lifts the ground on balanced speaker cables but I have 11 speakers in my setup so would get ridiculously expensive as I'd need two of them.......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EBTECH-HE-8-XLR-Hum-Eliminator-XLR/dp/B001TDKUB6/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1500044105&sr=1-1&keywords=ebtech+hum+8+xlr

I've toyed with the idea of a isolating power transformer but i'm not sure they would work....
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Luggage/Goldsource-ST-1000-1000-Watt-Step-Voltage-Converter/B00AAWODNI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_23_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=WZJYCAAP9PY1MB5DQG1E

Maybe if I used one of the isolating transformers then used the hum X American plug jobbie on it?

This is getting ridiculous though. Surely NVidia have to work on better shielding???

Looking at the problem from another angle, does anyone know of a soundcard that outputs to HDMI that supports dolby atmos and preferably HDCP 2.2?

With PC audio are we limited to NVidias noisy ass bitstreaming? My USB RME Fireface soundcard had balanced outputs and was silent. No atmos or bitstreaming on that that though!

Any advice, tips, suggestions appreciated! :D
I've got an electrician coming round to make me an extension cable with a switch on it to lift the ground when required and check for continuity and make sure my case isn't constantly live when i'm lifting the ground.
My 10 year old son likes to use my PC and don't want to take any risks!
Is there a double insulated PC case you can buy so lifting the ground would be safe?
Could I cover all the metal parts of my case with electrical tape?

It's not good lifting the power ground on a watercooled PC! :D

Thanks.

#50
Posted 07/14/2017 03:03 PM   
don´t use tape. it gets sticky really quick. use some adhesive foam or paint that does not conduct. or make a big wooden case over it with 2 big fans swithcing air. get your son a pair of rubber gloves...okei that was not funnu..well in an idea level maby ,,lol.. daddys gotta glue these on........
don´t use tape. it gets sticky really quick. use some adhesive foam or paint that does not conduct.
or make a big wooden case over it with 2 big fans swithcing air.
get your son a pair of rubber gloves...okei that was not funnu..well in an idea level maby ,,lol..
daddys gotta glue these on........

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Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
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#51
Posted 07/14/2017 03:13 PM   
Assuming that you do have two grounds as being the root cause of the ground loop, you can lift the ground on either end to solve the problem. If that's true, you could leave the computer grounded, and lift the ground on the audio equipment instead.
Assuming that you do have two grounds as being the root cause of the ground loop, you can lift the ground on either end to solve the problem.

If that's true, you could leave the computer grounded, and lift the ground on the audio equipment instead.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
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#52
Posted 07/15/2017 01:50 AM   
I have the same issue with my computer. Motherboard and/or GPU has a grounding issue and whenever it draws powers, it changes the pitch. It even picks up my mouse movements! I think the ground is going through my USB to my interface, then to my speakers. I eliminated this by using DI boxes with ground lifters as well as using a USB cable with ferrite chokes. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KUA8G6/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003MQ29B2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Hope this helps.
I have the same issue with my computer. Motherboard and/or GPU has a grounding issue and whenever it draws powers, it changes the pitch. It even picks up my mouse movements! I think the ground is going through my USB to my interface, then to my speakers. I eliminated this by using DI boxes with ground lifters as well as using a USB cable with ferrite chokes.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KUA8G6/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003MQ29B2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Hope this helps.

#53
Posted 07/18/2017 05:43 PM   
I have this exact issue on my current build. I primarily use headphones, but still the same issue. I fixed mine (or eliminated 95% of it). I use a usb dac/amp and plug headphones into them. When I'm at the desktop or browsing, etc there is no background noise. However when gaming and the GPU is under load, there is an audible buzz in the background that's noticeable at quiet times like at a pause menu and whatnot. The pitch of the buzz also changes with GPU load just as you have described. Even weirder, if I move my head while wearing the headphones to the side panel of my case, the noise gets loud as I approach the GPU, and its at its maximum volume when my head is right next to the GPU. Definitely caused by the GPU (in my case an EVGA GTX 1070 SC). I believe its intense RFI from the GPU under load causing the buzzing in the USB ports. I tried all of them (all mobo USB ports and front panel), and they all buzz, some worse than others. The buzz is not audible at all when plugging directly into my onboard audio via 3.5mm cable. THe fix for me was getting a [b]powered usb hub[/b] and plugging my usb dac/amp into it. Its important that its a powered hub, as the key part is having a clean, separate source of power. When plugged into a powered hub, the buzz is completely gone regardless of GPU load. If I move my head with headphones next to the GPU, there is only an EXTREMELY faint buzz if I'm RIGHT next to it. So there is still extremely slight interference getting through. H Having a separate source of power for my usb audio solution and not relying on power from a case or mobo usb port fixed it for me. I am assuming a ground loop isolator might work, but the cheapest one I could find was ~ $40. For $15 I purchased an Amazon Basics powered usb hub, plugged my dac/amp into it, and solved the problem. I think these monster GPUs throw crazy amounts of EMI. I'm sure they are within spec for consumer electronics, but they probably don't test their effects on usb audio interference. My onboard has shielding specifically for this (in the documentation) and therefore doesn't have the buzz. Please try a powered usb hub for your usb audio interface and see if that fixes it. I'd recommend getting a dac/amp with line out for your receiver (I'm not sure exactly what you are using). The FiiO E10k (what I have) would work for this, as would a Schiit Fulla 2. The Fulla 2 also has an additional micro usb port to provide clean power from a normal 5V usb charger (like a phone charger). That could eliminate having to buy the powered USB hub.
I have this exact issue on my current build. I primarily use headphones, but still the same issue. I fixed mine (or eliminated 95% of it).

I use a usb dac/amp and plug headphones into them. When I'm at the desktop or browsing, etc there is no background noise. However when gaming and the GPU is under load, there is an audible buzz in the background that's noticeable at quiet times like at a pause menu and whatnot. The pitch of the buzz also changes with GPU load just as you have described. Even weirder, if I move my head while wearing the headphones to the side panel of my case, the noise gets loud as I approach the GPU, and its at its maximum volume when my head is right next to the GPU. Definitely caused by the GPU (in my case an EVGA GTX 1070 SC).

I believe its intense RFI from the GPU under load causing the buzzing in the USB ports. I tried all of them (all mobo USB ports and front panel), and they all buzz, some worse than others.

The buzz is not audible at all when plugging directly into my onboard audio via 3.5mm cable.

THe fix for me was getting a powered usb hub and plugging my usb dac/amp into it. Its important that its a powered hub, as the key part is having a clean, separate source of power. When plugged into a powered hub, the buzz is completely gone regardless of GPU load. If I move my head with headphones next to the GPU, there is only an EXTREMELY faint buzz if I'm RIGHT next to it. So there is still extremely slight interference getting through. H

Having a separate source of power for my usb audio solution and not relying on power from a case or mobo usb port fixed it for me. I am assuming a ground loop isolator might work, but the cheapest one I could find was ~ $40. For $15 I purchased an Amazon Basics powered usb hub, plugged my dac/amp into it, and solved the problem.

I think these monster GPUs throw crazy amounts of EMI. I'm sure they are within spec for consumer electronics, but they probably don't test their effects on usb audio interference. My onboard has shielding specifically for this (in the documentation) and therefore doesn't have the buzz.

Please try a powered usb hub for your usb audio interface and see if that fixes it.

I'd recommend getting a dac/amp with line out for your receiver (I'm not sure exactly what you are using). The FiiO E10k (what I have) would work for this, as would a Schiit Fulla 2. The Fulla 2 also has an additional micro usb port to provide clean power from a normal 5V usb charger (like a phone charger). That could eliminate having to buy the powered USB hub.

#54
Posted 08/15/2017 08:32 PM   
Searching for a solution to this problem brought me here. OP: Was it an actual HDBaseT (model?) you tried or just a CATx extender? I'm having similar problems (noisy PC w/ 980TI sent over HDMI ground to Marantz AVR), and have been considering trying one but they range from ~£25 for the simple extenders to ~£200+ for the HDBTs. PC + display at one side of room - bluray player + AVR + power amp at other side of room all on one outlet (Philips AV surge protector). 5m HDMI between GPU and AVR generates constant noise, static - crackling - pops - whine from mouse movement - the works! If I disconnect that link it still sends the same noise at lowered gain through the 1m DP to the monitor which is connected back to the AVR with a 6m HDMI for watching bluray. Currently limited to audio via toslink from PC and connecting/disconnecting DP/HDMI at display; depending on what I'm doing, don't fancy lifting ground on the amp or PC.
Searching for a solution to this problem brought me here.

OP: Was it an actual HDBaseT (model?) you tried or just a CATx extender?

I'm having similar problems (noisy PC w/ 980TI sent over HDMI ground to Marantz AVR), and have been considering trying one but they range from ~£25 for the simple extenders to ~£200+ for the HDBTs.

PC + display at one side of room - bluray player + AVR + power amp at other side of room all on one outlet (Philips AV surge protector).

5m HDMI between GPU and AVR generates constant noise, static - crackling - pops - whine from mouse movement - the works!

If I disconnect that link it still sends the same noise at lowered gain through the 1m DP to the monitor which is connected back to the AVR with a 6m HDMI for watching bluray.

Currently limited to audio via toslink from PC and connecting/disconnecting DP/HDMI at display; depending on what I'm doing, don't fancy lifting ground on the amp or PC.

#55
Posted 10/20/2017 10:53 PM   
I bought this and it didnt work. .... https://www.amazon.co.uk/SDS-Extender-HDBase-T-Uncompressed-Bi-directional/dp/B01LXAQNPD I've tried literally everything to get rid of the hum and the only method I've discovered that removes hum without degrading the sound is by lifting the earth on my pc power My old RME fireface soundcard never made the hum but the built in asus xonar D2X before that hummed too. It's when you use active speakers with an earthe source you get the noise. My xbox and ps4 pro and switch don't do it but they all have a plastic earth pin. I'm currently looking for all plastic PC cases so I know its safer.
I bought this and it didnt work.
....


https://www.amazon.co.uk/SDS-Extender-HDBase-T-Uncompressed-Bi-directional/dp/B01LXAQNPD


I've tried literally everything to get rid of the hum and the only method I've discovered that removes hum without degrading the sound is by lifting the earth on my pc power

My old RME fireface soundcard never made the hum but the built in asus xonar D2X before that hummed too.

It's when you use active speakers with an earthe source you get the noise. My xbox and ps4 pro and switch don't do it but they all have a plastic earth pin.

I'm currently looking for all plastic PC cases so I know its safer.

#56
Posted 10/21/2017 01:39 AM   
Thanks for posting, that saved me some trouble. Is the inside of your case painted?, mine is. I have seen someone fix a noise injection issue by removing paint from around the mobo standoff's; but now struggling to find their post. When I threw this rig together I didn't bend the little flaps on the IO shield out the way enough and they're blocking entry to the onboard GPU HDMI slot, since I need to remove the mobo to get to this; I will try removing some paint at the same time, but remain doubtful. I also can't see how using the onboard GPU will result in clean audio for me, since if I remove the 1m DP but plug the USB3 cable from PC to monitor hub - avoiding direct connection to the GPU; the (attenuated) noise is still carried through that back to the AVR via the 6m HDMI. There's some fully acrylic cases out there but they look a bit naff imo and will also be transparent to RFI/EMI etc I'd of thought.
Thanks for posting, that saved me some trouble.

Is the inside of your case painted?, mine is. I have seen someone fix a noise injection issue by removing paint from around the mobo standoff's; but now struggling to find their post.

When I threw this rig together I didn't bend the little flaps on the IO shield out the way enough and they're blocking entry to the onboard GPU HDMI slot, since I need to remove the mobo to get to this; I will try removing some paint at the same time, but remain doubtful.

I also can't see how using the onboard GPU will result in clean audio for me, since if I remove the 1m DP but plug the USB3 cable from PC to monitor hub - avoiding direct connection to the GPU; the (attenuated) noise is still carried through that back to the AVR via the 6m HDMI.

There's some fully acrylic cases out there but they look a bit naff imo and will also be transparent to RFI/EMI etc I'd of thought.

#57
Posted 10/21/2017 01:29 PM   
The noise is coming from the NVidia graphics card. I can' tell you the vcountless hours/days/weeks I've spent trying to resolve this. Are you using active (powered) speakers with balanced inputs? If so and you aren't bothered about dolby atmos or DTS X just buy an RME USB soundcard with balanced outputs (XLR/TRS) Yes they are expensive but you will have no hum. They are also great for recording audio if you play an instrument. The DACS will destroy the Marantz sound quality wise also. You can use powerDVD to decode DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby HD formats if you watch films on your setup. The only formats PowerDVD doesn't decode is Dolby Atmos and DTS X. This was the only reason I bought the Marantz AV7702mk2. I contacted Marantz directly about the issue a few weeks ago and got talking to an engineer. He says the balanced outputs of the Marantz only stop ground loops on the outputs and can't stop a ground loop coming through an input. It's definitely a ground loop as if you plug headphones into the Marantz the hum wont be there. The inside of my case is painted black. Not tried removing paint but I've use plastic washers and tried covering the standoffs with electrical tape (as well as the entire graphics card) I've tried foil, lead, everything you can think of. I just got my electrician mate to build a custom plug socket with an oven type on off switch that lifts the pc ground. I can literally have a game running with massive noise then push the switch and it disappears. As bo3b mentioned the noise is there as there are too many grounds. Unless you are stood in a pool of water touching the inside of the PC and a radiator at the same time whilst their is a fault in the PC you don't have much chance of being electrocuted. The Xbox X and the PS4 Pro aren't grounded as they are 'double insulated' i.e have no exposed metal parts. I'm going to do the same with this PC and then wall mount it out of the way. If there was a electrical fault with the PC it wouldn't be working anyway. I'm not saying do it, as I know there is a risk, if you find a better way let me know. You could always the the Ebitech Hum eliminator boxs too.
The noise is coming from the NVidia graphics card. I can' tell you the vcountless hours/days/weeks I've spent trying to resolve this.

Are you using active (powered) speakers with balanced inputs?
If so and you aren't bothered about dolby atmos or DTS X just buy an RME USB soundcard with balanced outputs (XLR/TRS)
Yes they are expensive but you will have no hum. They are also great for recording audio if you play an instrument. The DACS will destroy the Marantz sound quality wise also.

You can use powerDVD to decode DTS HD MA 7.1 and Dolby HD formats if you watch films on your setup. The only formats PowerDVD doesn't decode is Dolby Atmos and DTS X. This was the only reason I bought the Marantz AV7702mk2.

I contacted Marantz directly about the issue a few weeks ago and got talking to an engineer.
He says the balanced outputs of the Marantz only stop ground loops on the outputs and can't stop a ground loop coming through an input.

It's definitely a ground loop as if you plug headphones into the Marantz the hum wont be there.

The inside of my case is painted black. Not tried removing paint but I've use plastic washers and tried covering the standoffs with electrical tape (as well as the entire graphics card) I've tried foil, lead, everything you can think of.

I just got my electrician mate to build a custom plug socket with an oven type on off switch that lifts the pc ground.

I can literally have a game running with massive noise then push the switch and it disappears.
As bo3b mentioned the noise is there as there are too many grounds. Unless you are stood in a pool of water touching the inside of the PC and a radiator at the same time whilst their is a fault in the PC you don't have much chance of being electrocuted.

The Xbox X and the PS4 Pro aren't grounded as they are 'double insulated' i.e have no exposed metal parts. I'm going to do the same with this PC and then wall mount it out of the way.

If there was a electrical fault with the PC it wouldn't be working anyway.

I'm not saying do it, as I know there is a risk, if you find a better way let me know.
You could always the the Ebitech Hum eliminator boxs too.

#58
Posted 10/21/2017 04:10 PM   
Not active speakers, just a power amp for a sub which will form the other side of this ground loop. Tried braking the shield on the RCA to TS at the power amp side but that just caused the sub to hum badly. I have just finished stripping/rebuilding the PC, sanded to bare metal all required standoff thread points on the case and bent the IO shield to allow use of IGPU, as I suspected neither fix the noise.
Not active speakers, just a power amp for a sub which will form the other side of this ground loop. Tried braking the shield on the RCA to TS at the power amp side but that just caused the sub to hum badly.

I have just finished stripping/rebuilding the PC, sanded to bare metal all required standoff thread points on the case and bent the IO shield to allow use of IGPU, as I suspected neither fix the noise.

#59
Posted 10/21/2017 04:44 PM   
Have any of you tried audio ground isolators? They're transformerbased so it means analogue signals only. I can also imagine that the lower bandwidth would be a little limited due to the transformers. With a quality solution this should be neglectable though. Quick lazy google: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/HIFI-ground-loop-isolator-for-Audiophile/600142_32735865125.html
Have any of you tried audio ground isolators? They're transformerbased so it means analogue signals only. I can also imagine that the lower bandwidth would be a little limited due to the transformers. With a quality solution this should be neglectable though.
Quick lazy google: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/HIFI-ground-loop-isolator-for-Audiophile/600142_32735865125.html

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#60
Posted 10/21/2017 05:05 PM   
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