General settings and ghost images How to get rid of ghost images at different distances?
Hello to everyone,
I am new with 3D and I have only tried a couple of games so far including Tomb Raider Underworld (with a GTX 260 and Viewsonic VM2268wm). Although the 3D works well with this game overall, one annoying problem I have is that objects in the game appear with 'ghost images' on the left and the right depending on their distance. I am familiar with the in-game settings of depth, convergence, and frustrum. However playing with those does not solve the issue. Indeed it is possible to adjust the convergence to make objects at a certain distance appear perfect but then the other distances become 'unadjusted'. In short there is no setting of convergence that works well for all distances, e.g. when Lara is at a certain distance she can be made to appear perfect at that distance but then ghost images appears for other objects at different distances or when the camera comes closer to her. The same thing is true (even worse) for the other games I have tries and for the Nvidia 3D demo provided with the 3D KIT.
I would like to know whether this is a general limitation of 3D that has to be lived with, or whether there are other settings that can be changed to correct this (and if yes which). Or else, it may be a problem that some games deal better with than others. However, for TRU, while I understand it is normal if some of the cut-scenes are not adjusted (that's what the ctrl+alt+ins says), it is otherwise rated as excellent for 3D so I would have thought the issue can be addressed.
I apologize if this question has already been posted and/or answered elsewhere, however I haven't find it on the forum, although perhaps this may be due to my limited understanding of technical terms.
I am new with 3D and I have only tried a couple of games so far including Tomb Raider Underworld (with a GTX 260 and Viewsonic VM2268wm). Although the 3D works well with this game overall, one annoying problem I have is that objects in the game appear with 'ghost images' on the left and the right depending on their distance. I am familiar with the in-game settings of depth, convergence, and frustrum. However playing with those does not solve the issue. Indeed it is possible to adjust the convergence to make objects at a certain distance appear perfect but then the other distances become 'unadjusted'. In short there is no setting of convergence that works well for all distances, e.g. when Lara is at a certain distance she can be made to appear perfect at that distance but then ghost images appears for other objects at different distances or when the camera comes closer to her. The same thing is true (even worse) for the other games I have tries and for the Nvidia 3D demo provided with the 3D KIT.
I would like to know whether this is a general limitation of 3D that has to be lived with, or whether there are other settings that can be changed to correct this (and if yes which). Or else, it may be a problem that some games deal better with than others. However, for TRU, while I understand it is normal if some of the cut-scenes are not adjusted (that's what the ctrl+alt+ins says), it is otherwise rated as excellent for 3D so I would have thought the issue can be addressed.
I apologize if this question has already been posted and/or answered elsewhere, however I haven't find it on the forum, although perhaps this may be due to my limited understanding of technical terms.
Yorgn.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
Oh well, don't seem to get an answer here, but if anyone comes across this, I did get some hints elsewhere as to what the problem is, though I still don't have a solution. I posted some screenshots too.
[post='problem 3D ghosting'][url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&st=20"]http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=20[/url][/post]
[post='problem 3D ghosting'][url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&st=40"]http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=40[/url][/post]
Basically, the problem seems to be ghosting, for example in a third person game the main character has two ghosts on each side of him/her when in 3D mode, which are situated exactly where the original 2D images are. Thus when an object is at screen depth, it's alright because the 2D images are superposed. However at any other depth there is ghosting. This is why it hurt my eyes when objects are close, because I can still parlty see the original 2D images, as if the glasses did not filter them completly out. If I diminish convergence to the minimum, at least I avoid that but all objects that are further away, not at screen depth, have ghosts (especially clear ones or dark ones on a clear background), strong enough to make it almost unplayable and certainly not enjoyable. Another unsatisfaying solution is to turn down the contrast setting of the monitor but it has to be turned so much it makes a very dull image, really not enjoyable either. Plus in any case I can't get pops-out. Only in the demo nvidia (the one with their logo) do I get satisfactory pop outs (in fact quite amazing), but even there I can see some ghosting.
I understand from other comments this is not normal.
Anyone has any suggestion to what could cause this and what settings could be changed to improve it? Or is the problem elsewhere?
PS: I have tried several games all rated as excellent in 3D, the problem is not there.
Oh well, don't seem to get an answer here, but if anyone comes across this, I did get some hints elsewhere as to what the problem is, though I still don't have a solution. I posted some screenshots too.
Basically, the problem seems to be ghosting, for example in a third person game the main character has two ghosts on each side of him/her when in 3D mode, which are situated exactly where the original 2D images are. Thus when an object is at screen depth, it's alright because the 2D images are superposed. However at any other depth there is ghosting. This is why it hurt my eyes when objects are close, because I can still parlty see the original 2D images, as if the glasses did not filter them completly out. If I diminish convergence to the minimum, at least I avoid that but all objects that are further away, not at screen depth, have ghosts (especially clear ones or dark ones on a clear background), strong enough to make it almost unplayable and certainly not enjoyable. Another unsatisfaying solution is to turn down the contrast setting of the monitor but it has to be turned so much it makes a very dull image, really not enjoyable either. Plus in any case I can't get pops-out. Only in the demo nvidia (the one with their logo) do I get satisfactory pop outs (in fact quite amazing), but even there I can see some ghosting.
I understand from other comments this is not normal.
Anyone has any suggestion to what could cause this and what settings could be changed to improve it? Or is the problem elsewhere?
PS: I have tried several games all rated as excellent in 3D, the problem is not there.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
Yorgn,
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
His is a bit odd, though, because there's ghosting all over the screen, not just near the top and/or bottom. The ViewSonic is one of the oldest 3D monitors but should it really be that bad?? Changing the I/R environment didn't help any.
Yorgn, are you looking straight at your monitor? The monitor isn't tilted in any way, right? And you aren't sitting above or below the screen?
His is a bit odd, though, because there's ghosting all over the screen, not just near the top and/or bottom. The ViewSonic is one of the oldest 3D monitors but should it really be that bad?? Changing the I/R environment didn't help any.
Yorgn, are you looking straight at your monitor? The monitor isn't tilted in any way, right? And you aren't sitting above or below the screen?
[quote name='roller11' date='15 April 2011 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1302902948' post='1225409']
Yorgn,
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
[/quote]
OK, I appreciate this, but my ghosting seems to be much stronger than can be tolerated. It makes a lot of games unplayable, including some rated as excellent (not only by nVidia but players on this forum). Have a look at the screenshots (2 out of 4 have ghosting). By contrast, I don't see ghosting (or hardly noticeable) on the screenshots provided in the 3D setup wizard (except in one of TRU).
Is there anything other than depth, convergence and contrast that can be adjusted?
I don't have MW2, but I have tried COD 4 (rated excellent), and is true it has much less ghosting than TR:U (but still has quite a bit). However it is impossible to get the gun to pop out, or anything else to pop out in any game I have tried for that matter. Either I put the convergence at minimum, so that the closest objects are at screen depth (and should not pop out), or if I don't those closest objects ghost so badly that it hurt my eyes and it is unplayable. Yet I understand it should be possible to do that (I can get pop out in some 3D movies). It makes any game at the third person barely playable because the character will ghost strongly with a convergence set on the closest objects.
[quote name='roller11' date='15 April 2011 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1302902948' post='1225409']
Yorgn,
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
OK, I appreciate this, but my ghosting seems to be much stronger than can be tolerated. It makes a lot of games unplayable, including some rated as excellent (not only by nVidia but players on this forum). Have a look at the screenshots (2 out of 4 have ghosting). By contrast, I don't see ghosting (or hardly noticeable) on the screenshots provided in the 3D setup wizard (except in one of TRU).
Is there anything other than depth, convergence and contrast that can be adjusted?
I don't have MW2, but I have tried COD 4 (rated excellent), and is true it has much less ghosting than TR:U (but still has quite a bit). However it is impossible to get the gun to pop out, or anything else to pop out in any game I have tried for that matter. Either I put the convergence at minimum, so that the closest objects are at screen depth (and should not pop out), or if I don't those closest objects ghost so badly that it hurt my eyes and it is unplayable. Yet I understand it should be possible to do that (I can get pop out in some 3D movies). It makes any game at the third person barely playable because the character will ghost strongly with a convergence set on the closest objects.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
[quote name='Libertine' date='16 April 2011 - 01:46 AM' timestamp='1302918400' post='1225502']
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: [url="http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php"]http://www.flatpanel...com/reviews.php[/url] , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
[/quote]
To Zloth: Yes I have the monitor straight and just in front of me.
[quote name='Libertine' date='16 April 2011 - 01:46 AM' timestamp='1302918400' post='1225502']
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: http://www.flatpanel...com/reviews.php , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
To Zloth: Yes I have the monitor straight and just in front of me.
To Libertine: What's crosstalk?
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
[url="http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/3392"]The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features[/url]
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
[quote name='IC3D' date='16 April 2011 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1302954980' post='1225679']
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
[url="http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/3392"]The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features[/url]
[/quote]
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&pid=1225088&st=40&#entry1225088"]My link (post 45)[/url]
[quote name='IC3D' date='16 April 2011 - 11:56 AM' timestamp='1302954980' post='1225679']
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
[list]
[*]Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
[*]Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
[*]Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
[*]Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
[*]Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
[*]Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
[*]Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
[/list]
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
[quote name='Yorgn' date='16 April 2011 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1302960617' post='1225716']
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&pid=1225088&st=40&#entry1225088"]My link (post 45)[/url]
[/quote]
Some display tech can have zero or imperceptible amounts of crosstalk, like passive glass viewing, projectors, OLED, Plasma, Laser TVs (oops, Mitsubishi), and others, so don't think its normal. But for LCD, it might be normal at the moment.
I don't know how those screenshot are captured, but i doubt the process would capture the crosstalk/ghosting itself. You'd have to take a photo through the lens, would he not?
[quote name='Yorgn' date='16 April 2011 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1302960617' post='1225716']
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
Some display tech can have zero or imperceptible amounts of crosstalk, like passive glass viewing, projectors, OLED, Plasma, Laser TVs (oops, Mitsubishi), and others, so don't think its normal. But for LCD, it might be normal at the moment.
I don't know how those screenshot are captured, but i doubt the process would capture the crosstalk/ghosting itself. You'd have to take a photo through the lens, would he not?
[quote name='Zloth' date='16 April 2011 - 07:18 AM' timestamp='1302963508' post='1225740']
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
[list]
[*]Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
[*]Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
[*]Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
[*]Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
[*]Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
[*]Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
[*]Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
[/list]
[/quote]
I wonder if glasses make a difference since the more i tilt my glasses forward, the more crosstalk i see. I also wonder if the "new" transparent LCD panels displayed at CES could be used for our shutter glasses or if its the same as what were using now.
Zloth, your last post makes me wonder if having control over the timing of the shutter in milliseconds or microseconds would make a difference.
[quote name='Zloth' date='16 April 2011 - 07:18 AM' timestamp='1302963508' post='1225740']
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
I wonder if glasses make a difference since the more i tilt my glasses forward, the more crosstalk i see. I also wonder if the "new" transparent LCD panels displayed at CES could be used for our shutter glasses or if its the same as what were using now.
Zloth, your last post makes me wonder if having control over the timing of the shutter in milliseconds or microseconds would make a difference.
Libertine - for crosstalk ghosting, yeah, the screenshots will look fine to everyone else. Other kinds of ghosting, like when some special lighting effect is showing up in both eyes instead of just one, do show up in screenshots. So I often take a screenshot in order to figure out which kind of ghosting is happening. (Plus, in this case, it helps us see just how much contrast is happening on the screen.)
I also wonder if having access to the timings would matter. These could be caused by some problems with Windows not passing the message from the drivers on up through the USB port. (Or maybe those special USB port drivers we have are specifically there so the video drivers can bypass Windows?)
Libertine - for crosstalk ghosting, yeah, the screenshots will look fine to everyone else. Other kinds of ghosting, like when some special lighting effect is showing up in both eyes instead of just one, do show up in screenshots. So I often take a screenshot in order to figure out which kind of ghosting is happening. (Plus, in this case, it helps us see just how much contrast is happening on the screen.)
I also wonder if having access to the timings would matter. These could be caused by some problems with Windows not passing the message from the drivers on up through the USB port. (Or maybe those special USB port drivers we have are specifically there so the video drivers can bypass Windows?)
Liberrtine - as Zloth says, it depends on the source of the ghosting. If you don't see any on the screenshots I posted, then the problem must be with my glasses, or the settings of my monitor (my being different than yours). If you do see some, then it must be elsewhere (settings 3D, drivers, monitor itself, or graphic card). It narrows down (a bit) the problem. Also it would tell me if this is normal ghosting I have to live with or not.
I have noticed another problem which I don't know if it has anything to do with 3D. In programs like Firefox, words, etc. (and in 2D of course), I often have characters that appear in red, green or blue instead of black (the color can change when I zoom in or out). I should say directly that this is NOT a monitor problem because I have another monitor (not 3D, and thus with a different refresh rate too) which does the same. Also, forcing VSync on in windows did not help. As I say, I don't know if it is related with the ghosting, but it does suggest I have a problem with either the drivers or the graphic card. Anyone has heard of simialr problem with the nvidia drivers or with a GTX260?
Liberrtine - as Zloth says, it depends on the source of the ghosting. If you don't see any on the screenshots I posted, then the problem must be with my glasses, or the settings of my monitor (my being different than yours). If you do see some, then it must be elsewhere (settings 3D, drivers, monitor itself, or graphic card). It narrows down (a bit) the problem. Also it would tell me if this is normal ghosting I have to live with or not.
I have noticed another problem which I don't know if it has anything to do with 3D. In programs like Firefox, words, etc. (and in 2D of course), I often have characters that appear in red, green or blue instead of black (the color can change when I zoom in or out). I should say directly that this is NOT a monitor problem because I have another monitor (not 3D, and thus with a different refresh rate too) which does the same. Also, forcing VSync on in windows did not help. As I say, I don't know if it is related with the ghosting, but it does suggest I have a problem with either the drivers or the graphic card. Anyone has heard of simialr problem with the nvidia drivers or with a GTX260?
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
I am new with 3D and I have only tried a couple of games so far including Tomb Raider Underworld (with a GTX 260 and Viewsonic VM2268wm). Although the 3D works well with this game overall, one annoying problem I have is that objects in the game appear with 'ghost images' on the left and the right depending on their distance. I am familiar with the in-game settings of depth, convergence, and frustrum. However playing with those does not solve the issue. Indeed it is possible to adjust the convergence to make objects at a certain distance appear perfect but then the other distances become 'unadjusted'. In short there is no setting of convergence that works well for all distances, e.g. when Lara is at a certain distance she can be made to appear perfect at that distance but then ghost images appears for other objects at different distances or when the camera comes closer to her. The same thing is true (even worse) for the other games I have tries and for the Nvidia 3D demo provided with the 3D KIT.
I would like to know whether this is a general limitation of 3D that has to be lived with, or whether there are other settings that can be changed to correct this (and if yes which). Or else, it may be a problem that some games deal better with than others. However, for TRU, while I understand it is normal if some of the cut-scenes are not adjusted (that's what the ctrl+alt+ins says), it is otherwise rated as excellent for 3D so I would have thought the issue can be addressed.
I apologize if this question has already been posted and/or answered elsewhere, however I haven't find it on the forum, although perhaps this may be due to my limited understanding of technical terms.
Yorgn.
I am new with 3D and I have only tried a couple of games so far including Tomb Raider Underworld (with a GTX 260 and Viewsonic VM2268wm). Although the 3D works well with this game overall, one annoying problem I have is that objects in the game appear with 'ghost images' on the left and the right depending on their distance. I am familiar with the in-game settings of depth, convergence, and frustrum. However playing with those does not solve the issue. Indeed it is possible to adjust the convergence to make objects at a certain distance appear perfect but then the other distances become 'unadjusted'. In short there is no setting of convergence that works well for all distances, e.g. when Lara is at a certain distance she can be made to appear perfect at that distance but then ghost images appears for other objects at different distances or when the camera comes closer to her. The same thing is true (even worse) for the other games I have tries and for the Nvidia 3D demo provided with the 3D KIT.
I would like to know whether this is a general limitation of 3D that has to be lived with, or whether there are other settings that can be changed to correct this (and if yes which). Or else, it may be a problem that some games deal better with than others. However, for TRU, while I understand it is normal if some of the cut-scenes are not adjusted (that's what the ctrl+alt+ins says), it is otherwise rated as excellent for 3D so I would have thought the issue can be addressed.
I apologize if this question has already been posted and/or answered elsewhere, however I haven't find it on the forum, although perhaps this may be due to my limited understanding of technical terms.
Yorgn.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
[post='problem 3D ghosting'][url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&st=20"]http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=20[/url][/post]
[post='problem 3D ghosting'][url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&st=40"]http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=40[/url][/post]
Basically, the problem seems to be ghosting, for example in a third person game the main character has two ghosts on each side of him/her when in 3D mode, which are situated exactly where the original 2D images are. Thus when an object is at screen depth, it's alright because the 2D images are superposed. However at any other depth there is ghosting. This is why it hurt my eyes when objects are close, because I can still parlty see the original 2D images, as if the glasses did not filter them completly out. If I diminish convergence to the minimum, at least I avoid that but all objects that are further away, not at screen depth, have ghosts (especially clear ones or dark ones on a clear background), strong enough to make it almost unplayable and certainly not enjoyable. Another unsatisfaying solution is to turn down the contrast setting of the monitor but it has to be turned so much it makes a very dull image, really not enjoyable either. Plus in any case I can't get pops-out. Only in the demo nvidia (the one with their logo) do I get satisfactory pop outs (in fact quite amazing), but even there I can see some ghosting.
I understand from other comments this is not normal.
Anyone has any suggestion to what could cause this and what settings could be changed to improve it? Or is the problem elsewhere?
PS: I have tried several games all rated as excellent in 3D, the problem is not there.
[post='problem 3D ghosting']http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=20[/post]
[post='problem 3D ghosting']http://forums.nvidia...ic=183475&st=40[/post]
Basically, the problem seems to be ghosting, for example in a third person game the main character has two ghosts on each side of him/her when in 3D mode, which are situated exactly where the original 2D images are. Thus when an object is at screen depth, it's alright because the 2D images are superposed. However at any other depth there is ghosting. This is why it hurt my eyes when objects are close, because I can still parlty see the original 2D images, as if the glasses did not filter them completly out. If I diminish convergence to the minimum, at least I avoid that but all objects that are further away, not at screen depth, have ghosts (especially clear ones or dark ones on a clear background), strong enough to make it almost unplayable and certainly not enjoyable. Another unsatisfaying solution is to turn down the contrast setting of the monitor but it has to be turned so much it makes a very dull image, really not enjoyable either. Plus in any case I can't get pops-out. Only in the demo nvidia (the one with their logo) do I get satisfactory pop outs (in fact quite amazing), but even there I can see some ghosting.
I understand from other comments this is not normal.
Anyone has any suggestion to what could cause this and what settings could be changed to improve it? Or is the problem elsewhere?
PS: I have tried several games all rated as excellent in 3D, the problem is not there.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
Yorgn, are you looking straight at your monitor? The monitor isn't tilted in any way, right? And you aren't sitting above or below the screen?
Yorgn, are you looking straight at your monitor? The monitor isn't tilted in any way, right? And you aren't sitting above or below the screen?
Yorgn,
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
[/quote]
OK, I appreciate this, but my ghosting seems to be much stronger than can be tolerated. It makes a lot of games unplayable, including some rated as excellent (not only by nVidia but players on this forum). Have a look at the screenshots (2 out of 4 have ghosting). By contrast, I don't see ghosting (or hardly noticeable) on the screenshots provided in the 3D setup wizard (except in one of TRU).
Is there anything other than depth, convergence and contrast that can be adjusted?
I don't have MW2, but I have tried COD 4 (rated excellent), and is true it has much less ghosting than TR:U (but still has quite a bit). However it is impossible to get the gun to pop out, or anything else to pop out in any game I have tried for that matter. Either I put the convergence at minimum, so that the closest objects are at screen depth (and should not pop out), or if I don't those closest objects ghost so badly that it hurt my eyes and it is unplayable. Yet I understand it should be possible to do that (I can get pop out in some 3D movies). It makes any game at the third person barely playable because the character will ghost strongly with a convergence set on the closest objects.
Yorgn,
Ghosting is universal on all 3D platforms, it's elimination is the Holy Grail of 3D. What you are describing is perfectly normal in games, BluRay 3D, 3D broadcast Television, in movie theaters (Real 3D) what have you. You can minimize it, move it around, make depth vs ghosting tradeoffs, but you can't eliminate it. Games with bright light sources and high contrast tend to be the worst offenders. For example, the best game is Modern Warfare2. In that game I don't even see ghosting unless I look for it. BulletStorm has high contrast, so it is noticeable. The graphics and artwork are so spectacular, I put up with ghosting and I agree with the nvidia rating of excellent.
OK, I appreciate this, but my ghosting seems to be much stronger than can be tolerated. It makes a lot of games unplayable, including some rated as excellent (not only by nVidia but players on this forum). Have a look at the screenshots (2 out of 4 have ghosting). By contrast, I don't see ghosting (or hardly noticeable) on the screenshots provided in the 3D setup wizard (except in one of TRU).
Is there anything other than depth, convergence and contrast that can be adjusted?
I don't have MW2, but I have tried COD 4 (rated excellent), and is true it has much less ghosting than TR:U (but still has quite a bit). However it is impossible to get the gun to pop out, or anything else to pop out in any game I have tried for that matter. Either I put the convergence at minimum, so that the closest objects are at screen depth (and should not pop out), or if I don't those closest objects ghost so badly that it hurt my eyes and it is unplayable. Yet I understand it should be possible to do that (I can get pop out in some 3D movies). It makes any game at the third person barely playable because the character will ghost strongly with a convergence set on the closest objects.
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: [url="http://www.flatpanelshd.com/reviews.php"]http://www.flatpanel...com/reviews.php[/url] , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
[/quote]
To Zloth: Yes I have the monitor straight and just in front of me.
To Libertine: What's crosstalk?
I've been reading a lot of reviews lately, many from: http://www.flatpanel...com/reviews.php , who does really excellent reviews IMO. He, and others claim that they've reviewed LCD monitors that have almost imperceptible amounts of ghosting, plasma having the least. Also, its been said that passive 3d glasses have no crosstalk(but half the resolution, but that may change as soon as next year judging from what was seen at CES 2011).
To Zloth: Yes I have the monitor straight and just in front of me.
To Libertine: What's crosstalk?
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
[url="http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/3392"]The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features[/url]
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features
Windows 10 home x64
P9X79
i7-3820 @ 3.6-3.8 GHz
GTX 970 SSC
16GB 4x4 DDR3 RAM
SSD 850 PRO 256GB
VG248QE 144Hz
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
[url="http://www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/uan/3392"]The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features[/url]
[/quote]
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&pid=1225088&st=40&#entry1225088"]My link (post 45)[/url]
I find it impossible to completely remove ghosting on a 120Hz lcd monitor, it is seen in every game i play in 3D, some ok some not so.
According to wiki In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk.
3D Vision blogger says ...The crosstalk or ghosting of images (leaking of part of the image for the left eye into the right eye and vice versa) is a common problem with the current generation of 3D-capable 120Hz LCD monitors with different factors influencing it.
Another common cause for ghosting is having brighter colors on darker backgrounds or vice versa, especially if the separation between the left and the right eye is higher. And then again there is the so called top and bottom ghosting that represents more ghosting on the top and at the bottom of the screen that is usually caused by not so good timing with the image on the screen and the shutter glasses.
The trouble with 3D - AVReview Features
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
My link (post 45)
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
[list]
[*]Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
[*]Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
[*]Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
[*]Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
[*]Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
[*]Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
[*]Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
[/list]
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=183475&pid=1225088&st=40&#entry1225088"]My link (post 45)[/url]
[/quote]
Some display tech can have zero or imperceptible amounts of crosstalk, like passive glass viewing, projectors, OLED, Plasma, Laser TVs (oops, Mitsubishi), and others, so don't think its normal. But for LCD, it might be normal at the moment.
I don't know how those screenshot are captured, but i doubt the process would capture the crosstalk/ghosting itself. You'd have to take a photo through the lens, would he not?
Thanks for the info and the link. So OK, I understand some ghosting/crosstalk is normal and to be expected and has to be lived with.
Still, I am not sure whether the amount of ghosting I have is normal or not. Zloth seems to think it isn't. And I have to say, on a game like TRU which many people on this forum have said is very good in 3D, I find it hard to play without my eyes getting tired very quickly (and hurting on those close shots when a wall or vegetation comes very close to the camera). It's a bit the same effect as if you were looking at a screen which is consistenly flickering (I mean in terms of effect on the eyes). The same applies to other games rated as excellent. It makes the whole 3D experience rather off-putting - yet most people seem to be very happy with it, which makes me think it is not normal.
If you have some time, please have a look at the screenshots and tell me what you think - if it is a normal amount of ghosting or not.
My link (post 45)
Some display tech can have zero or imperceptible amounts of crosstalk, like passive glass viewing, projectors, OLED, Plasma, Laser TVs (oops, Mitsubishi), and others, so don't think its normal. But for LCD, it might be normal at the moment.
I don't know how those screenshot are captured, but i doubt the process would capture the crosstalk/ghosting itself. You'd have to take a photo through the lens, would he not?
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
[list]
[*]Projector vs LCD vs TV: Projectors have a lot less ghosting than LCDs. I don't even know what the story is on TVs.
[*]Monitor model age: People with the early Samsung, Viewsonic, and Alienware monitors seem to have worse problems. My Asus has some. The latest models Bloody has been reviewing on his blog have almost none.
[*]Angles: The edges of the glasses don't work as well as the parts near the nose. Ghosts often vanish for me if I point my face right at them.
[*]Contrast: If a pixel on the monitor has to jump between a bright color and a dark color, it seems to be more likely to lag behind and cause ghosting.
[*]Screen Position: Ghosting is typically easier to get near the top and/or bottom of the monitor. The top seems to be more common but that could just be because you are more likely to get high contrast near the top (moon at night, dark building against daytime sky).
[*]Infrared Settings: I've seen posts where people get a big improvement when they change their I/R settings in any direction.
[*]Other Mysteries: On my own system I've got screenshots that had pretty bad ghosting a couple of months ago that now have barely any. Why? My drivers haven't changed and I haven't changed my settings. The screenshots lock in depth/convergence. Maybe my glasses needed charging before? Maybe the remote for my TV was pointed toward my glasses? Maybe my I/R emitter wasn't plugged into the same USB port? Maybe I removed my external USB hard drive differently last time I backed my system up? It could be a thousand different things.
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I wonder if glasses make a difference since the more i tilt my glasses forward, the more crosstalk i see. I also wonder if the "new" transparent LCD panels displayed at CES could be used for our shutter glasses or if its the same as what were using now.
Zloth, your last post makes me wonder if having control over the timing of the shutter in milliseconds or microseconds would make a difference.
I looked at most of your screenshots, actually. I saw a *tiny* bit of ghosting on one of Lara's legs but all the rest looked fine.
I've been hanging around on these boards for several months now and, from what I've seen, there must be several factors to this whole crosstalk thing.
I wonder if glasses make a difference since the more i tilt my glasses forward, the more crosstalk i see. I also wonder if the "new" transparent LCD panels displayed at CES could be used for our shutter glasses or if its the same as what were using now.
Zloth, your last post makes me wonder if having control over the timing of the shutter in milliseconds or microseconds would make a difference.
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I also wonder if having access to the timings would matter. These could be caused by some problems with Windows not passing the message from the drivers on up through the USB port. (Or maybe those special USB port drivers we have are specifically there so the video drivers can bypass Windows?)
I also wonder if having access to the timings would matter. These could be caused by some problems with Windows not passing the message from the drivers on up through the USB port. (Or maybe those special USB port drivers we have are specifically there so the video drivers can bypass Windows?)
I have noticed another problem which I don't know if it has anything to do with 3D. In programs like Firefox, words, etc. (and in 2D of course), I often have characters that appear in red, green or blue instead of black (the color can change when I zoom in or out). I should say directly that this is NOT a monitor problem because I have another monitor (not 3D, and thus with a different refresh rate too) which does the same. Also, forcing VSync on in windows did not help. As I say, I don't know if it is related with the ghosting, but it does suggest I have a problem with either the drivers or the graphic card. Anyone has heard of simialr problem with the nvidia drivers or with a GTX260?
I have noticed another problem which I don't know if it has anything to do with 3D. In programs like Firefox, words, etc. (and in 2D of course), I often have characters that appear in red, green or blue instead of black (the color can change when I zoom in or out). I should say directly that this is NOT a monitor problem because I have another monitor (not 3D, and thus with a different refresh rate too) which does the same. Also, forcing VSync on in windows did not help. As I say, I don't know if it is related with the ghosting, but it does suggest I have a problem with either the drivers or the graphic card. Anyone has heard of simialr problem with the nvidia drivers or with a GTX260?
Windows 10 64 bits
Asus Z170A
Intel i7 K6700
Geforce GTX980
Viewsonic VX2268wm
Nvidia Driver 361.75