3d Vision 2 kit supply vanishing
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[quote="vulcan78"]imagine being blind in one eye youre whole life only to suddenly, miraculously have vision restored in the other.[/quote] This actually kind of happened to me about a year and a half ago. It's not as rare people might think. I don't mean having vision restored, but sometimes one eye, for one reason or another, is not used by the brain to see. This is called stereoblindness, where someone sees out of only one eye, without stereovision. Depending on the cause, it is possible to fix this and gain stereovision. Let me tell you, this was the most incredible thing I've ever experienced. 3D games really are the closest analogy I've found. Think back to the first time you saw a game in 3D, and that amazing sense of depth you saw. Now imagine one day you saw the whole world like that, after always seeing in 2D. It feels like I gained a super power. My spatial awareness is through the roof! And mirrors... mirrors are an incredible sight. Really though, everything is. I've been meaning to write up my story to share here for a while now ( I keep saying that every so often, I swear I'm going to do it eventually). It really is an amazing story, if not a little out there and hard to believe, but I think people here will appreciate it more than most. In the meantime, for anyone interested, here's a talk by Susan Barry ("Stereo Sue"), the first famous case of someone developing stereovision later in life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCCtphdXhq8
vulcan78 said:imagine being blind in one eye youre whole life only to suddenly, miraculously have vision restored in the other.


This actually kind of happened to me about a year and a half ago. It's not as rare people might think. I don't mean having vision restored, but sometimes one eye, for one reason or another, is not used by the brain to see. This is called stereoblindness, where someone sees out of only one eye, without stereovision.

Depending on the cause, it is possible to fix this and gain stereovision. Let me tell you, this was the most incredible thing I've ever experienced. 3D games really are the closest analogy I've found. Think back to the first time you saw a game in 3D, and that amazing sense of depth you saw. Now imagine one day you saw the whole world like that, after always seeing in 2D. It feels like I gained a super power. My spatial awareness is through the roof! And mirrors... mirrors are an incredible sight. Really though, everything is.

I've been meaning to write up my story to share here for a while now ( I keep saying that every so often, I swear I'm going to do it eventually). It really is an amazing story, if not a little out there and hard to believe, but I think people here will appreciate it more than most. In the meantime, for anyone interested, here's a talk by Susan Barry ("Stereo Sue"), the first famous case of someone developing stereovision later in life:

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#16
Posted 12/04/2014 07:15 AM   
[quote="bo3b"]Dudes, seriously, did you even read what Josh wrote? Please allow me to quote:[/quote] Who's calling him a liar? That was a great post, the discussion just kind of diverged from there since the OP's points were taken care of by that post. ..and as I said earlier, I still see to this day positive posts concerning 3D Vision on various forums by users. Saul good man.
bo3b said:Dudes, seriously, did you even read what Josh wrote? Please allow me to quote:


Who's calling him a liar? That was a great post, the discussion just kind of diverged from there since the OP's points were taken care of by that post.

..and as I said earlier, I still see to this day positive posts concerning 3D Vision on various forums by users. Saul good man.

#17
Posted 12/04/2014 09:40 AM   
CCL computers (UK) most recently had advertised 8 units due on the 5th December. It's now the 4th and that had changed to "More expected around 27th december". When I spoke to CCL about a month ago they told me that their supplier was giving them estimates but weren't able to confirm; the 27th is more or less a default holding date until they get information. I solved my problem by buying a second hand 3d vision (1) kit for the emmiter and a new pair of 3d vision 2 glasses for £50 from ebay. I appreciate Josh's input and have been told directly by an Nvidia rep that this product is most definitely not discontinued. I would also be entirely unsurprised if, in 6 months time, we were told that it was.
CCL computers (UK) most recently had advertised 8 units due on the 5th December. It's now the 4th and that had changed to "More expected around 27th december".

When I spoke to CCL about a month ago they told me that their supplier was giving them estimates but weren't able to confirm; the 27th is more or less a default holding date until they get information.

I solved my problem by buying a second hand 3d vision (1) kit for the emmiter and a new pair of 3d vision 2 glasses for £50 from ebay. I appreciate Josh's input and have been told directly by an Nvidia rep that this product is most definitely not discontinued. I would also be entirely unsurprised if, in 6 months time, we were told that it was.

#18
Posted 12/04/2014 11:51 AM   
[quote="Drayth"][quote="bo3b"]Dudes, seriously, did you even read what Josh wrote? Please allow me to quote:[/quote] Who's calling him a liar? That was a great post, the discussion just kind of diverged from there since the OP's points were taken care of by that post. ..and as I said earlier, I still see to this day positive posts concerning 3D Vision on various forums by users. Saul good man. [/quote] My objections: [quote="RonsonPL"]What if they did gave up? Anyone seriously believe they would announce it? What for? It wouldn't make them money, more likely the opposite. There is no question if Nvidia gave up on 3D, their "support" for it speaks for it. I'd stick to the facts instead of PR talk, I'm afraid we're dealing with here.[/quote] [quote="vulcan78"]It's truly sad that the support for 3D Vision is waning with very few new title supporting it. The only glimmer of hope on the horizon would be Occulus Rift, and I think that part of the reason 3D Vision kits are being discontinued by Nvidia is that they wan't to avoid investment in an inventory of a product that there will be little interest in with the arrival of Occulus Rift in the next year or so. [/quote]
Drayth said:
bo3b said:Dudes, seriously, did you even read what Josh wrote? Please allow me to quote:


Who's calling him a liar? That was a great post, the discussion just kind of diverged from there since the OP's points were taken care of by that post.

..and as I said earlier, I still see to this day positive posts concerning 3D Vision on various forums by users. Saul good man.


My objections:

RonsonPL said:What if they did gave up? Anyone seriously believe they would announce it? What for? It wouldn't make them money, more likely the opposite. There is no question if Nvidia gave up on 3D, their "support" for it speaks for it.
I'd stick to the facts instead of PR talk, I'm afraid we're dealing with here.


vulcan78 said:It's truly sad that the support for 3D Vision is waning with very few new title supporting it. The only glimmer of hope on the horizon would be Occulus Rift, and I think that part of the reason 3D Vision kits are being discontinued by Nvidia is that they wan't to avoid investment in an inventory of a product that there will be little interest in with the arrival of Occulus Rift in the next year or so.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
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#19
Posted 12/04/2014 09:14 PM   
bo3b I hate to argue with someone I respect so much, for their work on fixes. I bow before people like you, and always will be. But I still don't agree so I'm forced to argue ;) Don't you think the amount of problems with 3D Vision people have to deal with is enough to say that Nvidia is totally ignoring 3D Vision? You very well know what insulting problems we all struggle with, that should absolutely not be even considered by a company that cares about its consumers. I think I don't have to list them, but just a few for anyone else reading this post: - You bought Win 8.1 and it's summer 2014? Too bad. Either you use drivers from 2013 or no 3D for you. Unless you love to risk situation when suddenly 3DV stops working properly and you get something like 2fps in every game. - their attitude to 3D Vision "angels", which I call everyone that posts their fixes on helixmod page. - the fake 3D issue, when we had to create a PETITION so Nvidia would fix what they broke. - still no full depth sliders in fake 3D mode - I have stutter on newer drives when moving my mouse in BF4, I don't have this issue on older drivers, but on them - the depth is blocked at not even medium, but low settings, which makes 3D look like crap in comparison to high separation settings. And of course - I often have to exit the game, ONCE AGAIN change the settings from "Nvidia discoverer" to "3D Vision 120Hz". So rolling back to older drivers isn't exactly a good solution. - DISASTER with 3D on newest drivers (reported by many users here, in recent days) - availability issue. They seem to have production stopped a year ago, and only now they asked themselves "Will we even sell enough glasses to produce more?" and the answer was "naaah... who cares.". I didn't see any 3DV advertisements, and may I remind you - drivers, when you download them, are PACKED with advertisements. In fact, I was denied installing the driver once, just because I didn't have an internet connection. Yes, I downloaded the full driver package, and I couldn't install them because... I would be unable to download recent ads that the installer wanted to put on my face, while I waited for drivers to install. I won't repeat what I screamed at this point, because it's a not a language level I like to communicate with. ;) - DICE makes BF3. They make BF3 3D compatible. With new version of their engine, on their conference, they release a PDF. In this documents they talk about the 3D, they abandoned the correct 3D path because it's too time and work consuming. Instead they choose to just render everything again. Performance is lower, but at least now, a game that uses the engine, can do 3D without any effort on developer's side. BF4 hits the market and... no 3D. Year later. only "compatibility mode". What do you think that says about Nvidia? They pump the money into titles that have not important details, but don't even lift a finger for 3D Vision support in big games, when it's easy? The same engine - DA:I - and again - no 3D. - there's no option for ShadowPlay for 3D. You cannot record 1080p120, not even 720p120. Only 960x1080p is available. - I'm not sure about that, but it seems there's no support for HDMI 2.0 now. I mean - 1080p120 signal without any image degrading compression or formats like 4:2:0. Soon we'll have Nvidia cards without DVI-DL port and then what? I already had to trash my first 3D glasses, because Nvidia stopped the support for 3D on CRT monitors (the era of ELSA/Gainward glasses). - If Nvidia sells so little in terms of 3D Vision kits/monitors, then why is it still a closed standard? AMD uses open one, even MS allowed for 3D in DX 11.something. If Nvidia cared about the success of 3D in PC gaming, it would realize that improving the popularity of 3D will benefit them. - and more My view: If it wasn't for you, guys, 3D Vision would already be dead. Nvidia doesn't care.
bo3b

I hate to argue with someone I respect so much, for their work on fixes. I bow before people like you, and always will be. But I still don't agree so I'm forced to argue ;)

Don't you think the amount of problems with 3D Vision people have to deal with is enough to say that Nvidia is totally ignoring 3D Vision?
You very well know what insulting problems we all struggle with, that should absolutely not be even considered by a company that cares about its consumers. I think I don't have to list them, but just a few for anyone else reading this post:

- You bought Win 8.1 and it's summer 2014? Too bad. Either you use drivers from 2013 or no 3D for you. Unless you love to risk situation when suddenly 3DV stops working properly and you get something like 2fps in every game.

- their attitude to 3D Vision "angels", which I call everyone that posts their fixes on helixmod page.

- the fake 3D issue, when we had to create a PETITION so Nvidia would fix what they broke.

- still no full depth sliders in fake 3D mode

- I have stutter on newer drives when moving my mouse in BF4, I don't have this issue on older drivers, but on them - the depth is blocked at not even medium, but low settings, which makes 3D look like crap in comparison to high separation settings. And of course - I often have to exit the game, ONCE AGAIN change the settings from "Nvidia discoverer" to "3D Vision 120Hz". So rolling back to older drivers isn't exactly a good solution.

- DISASTER with 3D on newest drivers (reported by many users here, in recent days)

- availability issue. They seem to have production stopped a year ago, and only now they asked themselves "Will we even sell enough glasses to produce more?" and the answer was "naaah... who cares.". I didn't see any 3DV advertisements, and may I remind you - drivers, when you download them, are PACKED with advertisements. In fact, I was denied installing the driver once, just because I didn't have an internet connection. Yes, I downloaded the full driver package, and I couldn't install them because... I would be unable to download recent ads that the installer wanted to put on my face, while I waited for drivers to install. I won't repeat what I screamed at this point, because it's a not a language level I like to communicate with. ;)
- DICE makes BF3. They make BF3 3D compatible. With new version of their engine, on their conference, they release a PDF. In this documents they talk about the 3D, they abandoned the correct 3D path because it's too time and work consuming. Instead they choose to just render everything again. Performance is lower, but at least now, a game that uses the engine, can do 3D without any effort on developer's side. BF4 hits the market and... no 3D. Year later. only "compatibility mode". What do you think that says about Nvidia? They pump the money into titles that have not important details, but don't even lift a finger for 3D Vision support in big games, when it's easy?
The same engine - DA:I - and again - no 3D.

- there's no option for ShadowPlay for 3D. You cannot record 1080p120, not even 720p120. Only 960x1080p is available.

- I'm not sure about that, but it seems there's no support for HDMI 2.0 now. I mean - 1080p120 signal without any image degrading compression or formats like 4:2:0. Soon we'll have Nvidia cards without DVI-DL port and then what? I already had to trash my first 3D glasses, because Nvidia stopped the support for 3D on CRT monitors (the era of ELSA/Gainward glasses).

- If Nvidia sells so little in terms of 3D Vision kits/monitors, then why is it still a closed standard? AMD uses open one, even MS allowed for 3D in DX 11.something. If Nvidia cared about the success of 3D in PC gaming, it would realize that improving the popularity of 3D will benefit them.

- and more

My view: If it wasn't for you, guys, 3D Vision would already be dead. Nvidia doesn't care.

#20
Posted 12/05/2014 03:03 PM   
[quote="RonsonPL"]and more My view: If it wasn't for you, guys, 3D Vision would already be dead.[quote] Well that is the fact
RonsonPL said:and more My view: If it wasn't for you, guys, 3D Vision would already be dead.

Well that is the fact

#21
Posted 12/05/2014 03:25 PM   
@RonsonPL: Well... I don't really disagree with a lot that you are saying, and I don't mind people arguing with me at all. I think this really comes down to expectations, you expect more than they provide, I expect nothing and am pleasantly surprised when I don't get a stick in the eye. (I still get a stick in the eye periodically, like WatchDogs not loading dlls because of bogus changes on their part. Part and parcel of being a hacker though.) There is absolutely no question that 3D Vision is a legacy product. Now it's important to think clearly about what 'legacy' means, and not construe it with other expectations. Most importantly, I think you are confusing legacy with being canceled, or no support whatsoever. That's not what that means. Legacy products still get regular updates and bug fixes, they just don't get any further development. You see this in the current drivers, where they still add 3D profiles. If it were canceled, they wouldn't do any of that. You also see this in them introducing CM. It's not awesome, but it is a genuine investment in time and engineering money into 3D Vision. If it were canceled, they wouldn't bother. Also, they are moving toward open standards. That's essentially the entire point of 3D TV Play- to use the millions of 3D TV compatible hardware out there, and avoid having their own proprietary stuff for 3D. This naturally means less focus on 3D Vision certified hardware, which looks like abandonment, but is actually better overall. The Windows8.1 problem is totally lame, but that's on Microsoft not NVidia. MS sprung some seriously bogus changes on the DXGI API, and NVidia has to workaround their bogus changes. I think the only real problem with NVidia is the pace of fixes is surprisingly slow, minimum of 6 months after a problem is reported. I cut them a tiny bit of slack because the video driver is freakin' impossibly complicated. The driver level problems are serious and notable, but it's not just 3D. Look at the forums and you see a LOT of angst about performance problems, SLI being broken, DisplayPort monitors going black when coming out of sleep, crashing bugs, etc. So from my perspective, this is just buggy drivers all around, and I cannot say that 3D Vision is ignored as part of that. The availability problems are part of the ebb and flow of business. It could [i]easily [/i]be that 3D Vision is enjoying some sort of renaissance because of VR hype, and the low availability is because of demand, not supply. When companies are surprised by demand spikes, it takes awhile to get more product out. My only real argument with your post is that Josh comes on the board to specifically say, as an NVidia employee, that it's temporary, and that they have no intention of canceling the product. And your response is to call him out and say it's just PR. I believe the better response is to wait for the time frame he specified, then come back if it seems faked. So to say "Nvidia is totally ignoring 3D Vision" I think is dramatically overstating the case. It's legacy, so I do not expect new monitors, but I do expect regular driver updates, and I believe we see those.
@RonsonPL: Well... I don't really disagree with a lot that you are saying, and I don't mind people arguing with me at all.

I think this really comes down to expectations, you expect more than they provide, I expect nothing and am pleasantly surprised when I don't get a stick in the eye. (I still get a stick in the eye periodically, like WatchDogs not loading dlls because of bogus changes on their part. Part and parcel of being a hacker though.)


There is absolutely no question that 3D Vision is a legacy product. Now it's important to think clearly about what 'legacy' means, and not construe it with other expectations.

Most importantly, I think you are confusing legacy with being canceled, or no support whatsoever. That's not what that means. Legacy products still get regular updates and bug fixes, they just don't get any further development.

You see this in the current drivers, where they still add 3D profiles. If it were canceled, they wouldn't do any of that. You also see this in them introducing CM. It's not awesome, but it is a genuine investment in time and engineering money into 3D Vision. If it were canceled, they wouldn't bother.

Also, they are moving toward open standards. That's essentially the entire point of 3D TV Play- to use the millions of 3D TV compatible hardware out there, and avoid having their own proprietary stuff for 3D. This naturally means less focus on 3D Vision certified hardware, which looks like abandonment, but is actually better overall.


The Windows8.1 problem is totally lame, but that's on Microsoft not NVidia. MS sprung some seriously bogus changes on the DXGI API, and NVidia has to workaround their bogus changes. I think the only real problem with NVidia is the pace of fixes is surprisingly slow, minimum of 6 months after a problem is reported. I cut them a tiny bit of slack because the video driver is freakin' impossibly complicated.

The driver level problems are serious and notable, but it's not just 3D. Look at the forums and you see a LOT of angst about performance problems, SLI being broken, DisplayPort monitors going black when coming out of sleep, crashing bugs, etc. So from my perspective, this is just buggy drivers all around, and I cannot say that 3D Vision is ignored as part of that.


The availability problems are part of the ebb and flow of business. It could easily be that 3D Vision is enjoying some sort of renaissance because of VR hype, and the low availability is because of demand, not supply. When companies are surprised by demand spikes, it takes awhile to get more product out.

My only real argument with your post is that Josh comes on the board to specifically say, as an NVidia employee, that it's temporary, and that they have no intention of canceling the product. And your response is to call him out and say it's just PR. I believe the better response is to wait for the time frame he specified, then come back if it seems faked.


So to say "Nvidia is totally ignoring 3D Vision" I think is dramatically overstating the case. It's legacy, so I do not expect new monitors, but I do expect regular driver updates, and I believe we see those.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#22
Posted 12/05/2014 10:35 PM   
About "PR". I don't call it just a PR. I suspect it, I'm afraid of it. But I also wrote " I hope this somehow is true". I am sceptical about every positive scenario since that's what Nvidia thought me to behave. So I hope you are right about the increased demand, but I'm afraid it's not due to this. This is not arguing - I'm just more pessimistic or you more optimistic here. Drivers. w8.1 - How do you explain the fact that older drivers work, then? I'm not attacking, I seriously think there might be an answer I simply cannot come up with now, since I'm not a programmer, nor I know much about W8.1 code. "Also, they are moving toward open standards." Two "buts". Why there are new 120Hz monitors without 3D Vision support? It's not like there's really something built into monitors needed for 3D to work. Back in CRT days you could use any monitor you want. Another "but" is - correct me if I'm wrong - but 3D Vision supports true 1440p60 signal (1440p120) and highest 3DTV play can go is 720p60 (720p120). As to the other arguments - they might be true, you might be right, and I might be not. But as I said - I'm just more pessimistic. I wasn't always like that. But I've got one pair of 3D glasses that are useless, because they are for CRT (and I do have a usable 24" CRT), and a second one - 3D Vision 1 for LCD, that died because of a design flaw. Then I've lost about 10 hours on fights with 8.1 until I finally found a thread on some forum, where other people reported the same. And I am furious about new driver issues since I plan to upgrade my card some day. And that means I won't be able to play some games properly. For example - I already don't know what drivers should I use for Burnout Paradise - it won't work 100% stable 60fps, it has some minor, yet very annoying, stutter. The same happened with Sega Rally Revo in 2D a few years ago - you just had to use older drivers, or no stable 60fps for you. But I digress (again) from "3D Vision problems" to "Nvidia related problems". Now I'll wait hoping you were right.
About "PR".
I don't call it just a PR. I suspect it, I'm afraid of it. But I also wrote " I hope this somehow is true".

I am sceptical about every positive scenario since that's what Nvidia thought me to behave. So I hope you are right about the increased demand, but I'm afraid it's not due to this. This is not arguing - I'm just more pessimistic or you more optimistic here.

Drivers.
w8.1 - How do you explain the fact that older drivers work, then? I'm not attacking, I seriously think there might be an answer I simply cannot come up with now, since I'm not a programmer, nor I know much about W8.1 code.

"Also, they are moving toward open standards."
Two "buts". Why there are new 120Hz monitors without 3D Vision support? It's not like there's really something built into monitors needed for 3D to work. Back in CRT days you could use any monitor you want.
Another "but" is - correct me if I'm wrong - but 3D Vision supports true 1440p60 signal (1440p120) and highest 3DTV play can go is 720p60 (720p120).



As to the other arguments - they might be true, you might be right, and I might be not. But as I said - I'm just more pessimistic. I wasn't always like that. But I've got one pair of 3D glasses that are useless, because they are for CRT (and I do have a usable 24" CRT), and a second one - 3D Vision 1 for LCD, that died because of a design flaw. Then I've lost about 10 hours on fights with 8.1 until I finally found a thread on some forum, where other people reported the same. And I am furious about new driver issues since I plan to upgrade my card some day. And that means I won't be able to play some games properly. For example - I already don't know what drivers should I use for Burnout Paradise - it won't work 100% stable 60fps, it has some minor, yet very annoying, stutter. The same happened with Sega Rally Revo in 2D a few years ago - you just had to use older drivers, or no stable 60fps for you. But I digress (again) from "3D Vision problems" to "Nvidia related problems".

Now I'll wait hoping you were right.

#23
Posted 12/05/2014 11:07 PM   
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