nVidia, did you kill 3D Vision?
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Thats a shame....so what will i be seeing if i get a samsung TV? 720P/60Hz if i do HDMI? what about with VGA connection?
Thats a shame....so what will i be seeing if i get a samsung TV? 720P/60Hz if i do HDMI? what about with VGA connection?

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#61
Posted 01/21/2011 06:24 PM   
[b]To Andrew:[/b]

[quote]My intepretation of this manual is that it is showing that the Samsung's TV menu has the ability to allow users to input and format that they want, but if its NOT an HDMI 1.4 format, it requires end user interaction to switch to one of the other formats. Is that correct, can you confirm it?[/quote]
Yes, while the 2 mandatory frame packing 3D formats are automatically detected by the Samsung TV, for the others (e.g. checkerboard, side-by-side, etc.) the TV must be set manually to the correct 3D mode via the 3D menu of the Samsung TV.

[quote]We currently are not looking to add formats that require end user interaction to switch the TV into that mode. Do you really want that? Is it more important for you to get that resolution or to have automatic 3D enable/disalbe from the source device?[/quote]
Selecting the checkerboard 3D mode in the Samsung menu before starting gaming is a small price to pay for the superior 3D quality the checkerboard format offers compared to 720p frame packing. So yes, checkerboard is more important than automatic 3D detection!

[quote]3DTV Play is designed for HDMI 1.4 formats and supporting formats that carry the 3D flag in the signal.[/quote]
Ok, but I'm a 3D vision customer, not a 3DTV Play customer. I was able to use the checkerboard and page flipping mode before you integrated 3DTV Play in the driver and took away that option for me.
To Andrew:



My intepretation of this manual is that it is showing that the Samsung's TV menu has the ability to allow users to input and format that they want, but if its NOT an HDMI 1.4 format, it requires end user interaction to switch to one of the other formats. Is that correct, can you confirm it?


Yes, while the 2 mandatory frame packing 3D formats are automatically detected by the Samsung TV, for the others (e.g. checkerboard, side-by-side, etc.) the TV must be set manually to the correct 3D mode via the 3D menu of the Samsung TV.



We currently are not looking to add formats that require end user interaction to switch the TV into that mode. Do you really want that? Is it more important for you to get that resolution or to have automatic 3D enable/disalbe from the source device?


Selecting the checkerboard 3D mode in the Samsung menu before starting gaming is a small price to pay for the superior 3D quality the checkerboard format offers compared to 720p frame packing. So yes, checkerboard is more important than automatic 3D detection!



3DTV Play is designed for HDMI 1.4 formats and supporting formats that carry the 3D flag in the signal.


Ok, but I'm a 3D vision customer, not a 3DTV Play customer. I was able to use the checkerboard and page flipping mode before you integrated 3DTV Play in the driver and took away that option for me.

#62
Posted 01/21/2011 06:47 PM   
This is a stunning revelation, we finally have the truth as to why Nvidia prohibits checkerboard mode for HDMI1.4! With HDMI1.3, checkerboard is automatically invoked. With HDMI1.4, 720P is automatic. I am astounded beyond words that anyone at Nvidia could so grossly underestimate their customers desire for a quality product.
No gamer will ever say "Nvidia, I am extremely lazy. Please eliminate beautiful checkerboard and give me ugly grotesque 720P so that I will not need to pick up my remote!"
I have asked myself 1000 times "why did Nvidia eliminate checkerboard on HDMI1.4 displays?" I have come up with many theories, but I would have NEVER guessed in 100 years that the answer would be "Nvidia thinks they are doing us a favor by saving us from pushing the 3D button on our remote". *This* is why Nvidia crippled 3DTV Play, I cannot express my shock.
This is a stunning revelation, we finally have the truth as to why Nvidia prohibits checkerboard mode for HDMI1.4! With HDMI1.3, checkerboard is automatically invoked. With HDMI1.4, 720P is automatic. I am astounded beyond words that anyone at Nvidia could so grossly underestimate their customers desire for a quality product.

No gamer will ever say "Nvidia, I am extremely lazy. Please eliminate beautiful checkerboard and give me ugly grotesque 720P so that I will not need to pick up my remote!"

I have asked myself 1000 times "why did Nvidia eliminate checkerboard on HDMI1.4 displays?" I have come up with many theories, but I would have NEVER guessed in 100 years that the answer would be "Nvidia thinks they are doing us a favor by saving us from pushing the 3D button on our remote". *This* is why Nvidia crippled 3DTV Play, I cannot express my shock.

#63
Posted 01/21/2011 07:47 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='21 January 2011 - 08:08 AM' timestamp='1295626115' post='1181159']
Hi

Thank you for the picture and explanation, this clears it up.

My intepretation of this manual is that it is showing that the Samsung's TV menu has the ability to allow users to input and format that they want, but if its NOT an HDMI 1.4 format, it requires end user interaction to switch to one of the other formats. Is that correct, can you confirm it?

If you go back to my original response, 3DTV Play is designed for HDMI 1.4 formats and supporting formats that carry the 3D flag in the signal. We currently are not looking to add formats that require end user interaction to switch the TV into that mode. Do you really want that? Is it more important for you to get that resolution or to have automatic 3D enable/disalbe from the source device?
[/quote]
Like Roller said, I bought 3D vision and it should support what I paid for. I'm not going to act shocked or anything, but this is a simple flag change somewhere, and it used to work. Don't lock us out of something that's easy to fix.

As for the importance of this ... go to the SLI forum and ask them why they have to game in 1080p/60 instead of 720p/60. Maybe ask them if 1080p/24 would be good enough instead. It's a pretty obvious question when you look at it.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='21 January 2011 - 08:08 AM' timestamp='1295626115' post='1181159']

Hi



Thank you for the picture and explanation, this clears it up.



My intepretation of this manual is that it is showing that the Samsung's TV menu has the ability to allow users to input and format that they want, but if its NOT an HDMI 1.4 format, it requires end user interaction to switch to one of the other formats. Is that correct, can you confirm it?



If you go back to my original response, 3DTV Play is designed for HDMI 1.4 formats and supporting formats that carry the 3D flag in the signal. We currently are not looking to add formats that require end user interaction to switch the TV into that mode. Do you really want that? Is it more important for you to get that resolution or to have automatic 3D enable/disalbe from the source device?



Like Roller said, I bought 3D vision and it should support what I paid for. I'm not going to act shocked or anything, but this is a simple flag change somewhere, and it used to work. Don't lock us out of something that's easy to fix.



As for the importance of this ... go to the SLI forum and ask them why they have to game in 1080p/60 instead of 720p/60. Maybe ask them if 1080p/24 would be good enough instead. It's a pretty obvious question when you look at it.

#64
Posted 01/21/2011 08:40 PM   
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1295628225' post='1181173']
Thing with 3D is that there are many options regarding glasses, emitters and TV options as well, i think the easiest and best way for things to go is people use 3D vision for their PCs and 3D Play for their TVs USING their Tv's glasses and emitters.

andrewwf, actually thank you for taking the time to answer some of these questions but i have one of my own, i will be getting one of the new samsung 3D LEd tvs (probably a 40 inch, it will be equivalant to last years model http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/UN40C7000WFXZA),my question is when i hook up my GTX 295 (or any other high end NVIDIA graphic card for that matter) to the TV using HDMI, will i be able to play at 1080p/60Hz? If not will this option be supported in the future?
[/quote]

Hi

TVs do not support 1080p60 yet. So that is the limitation.
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1295628225' post='1181173']

Thing with 3D is that there are many options regarding glasses, emitters and TV options as well, i think the easiest and best way for things to go is people use 3D vision for their PCs and 3D Play for their TVs USING their Tv's glasses and emitters.



andrewwf, actually thank you for taking the time to answer some of these questions but i have one of my own, i will be getting one of the new samsung 3D LEd tvs (probably a 40 inch, it will be equivalant to last years model http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/UN40C7000WFXZA),my question is when i hook up my GTX 295 (or any other high end NVIDIA graphic card for that matter) to the TV using HDMI, will i be able to play at 1080p/60Hz? If not will this option be supported in the future?





Hi



TVs do not support 1080p60 yet. So that is the limitation.

#65
Posted 01/21/2011 10:07 PM   
Cant you guys use the previous drivers that allowed this option? If you cant i dont think this is a problem for Nvidia at all to be honest, they should easily fix this problem beucase it isnt really a problem to begin with, i know alot of people cant game on 3D but people who invest heavily in DLPs, LEDs and 3 or 4 Geforce high end cards want to play the highest resolution, getting the best FPS so i dont really think it will take long until you get 1080p/60Hz or even higher than that since all the new LEDs and new 3D panels support until 240Hz or even higher. It just a matter of Nvidia realising that 3D gaming is growing and i am sure it wont be hard for them to please Geforce users, at the end of the day they want to make their cusotmers happy.

Me personaly ,3D or no 3D i dont think gaming at less than 60FPS is any good and since 3D takes a big toll on the cards, i dont think anything less than SLI would be good for 3D.

Anyways thats why i decided against getting a 3D vision kit (until now since i will be getting a samsung LED soon) since i knew that the LCD screens will be replaced with LED ones soon and that with 3D since its new there may be many changes yet to come.
Cant you guys use the previous drivers that allowed this option? If you cant i dont think this is a problem for Nvidia at all to be honest, they should easily fix this problem beucase it isnt really a problem to begin with, i know alot of people cant game on 3D but people who invest heavily in DLPs, LEDs and 3 or 4 Geforce high end cards want to play the highest resolution, getting the best FPS so i dont really think it will take long until you get 1080p/60Hz or even higher than that since all the new LEDs and new 3D panels support until 240Hz or even higher. It just a matter of Nvidia realising that 3D gaming is growing and i am sure it wont be hard for them to please Geforce users, at the end of the day they want to make their cusotmers happy.



Me personaly ,3D or no 3D i dont think gaming at less than 60FPS is any good and since 3D takes a big toll on the cards, i dont think anything less than SLI would be good for 3D.



Anyways thats why i decided against getting a 3D vision kit (until now since i will be getting a samsung LED soon) since i knew that the LCD screens will be replaced with LED ones soon and that with 3D since its new there may be many changes yet to come.

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#66
Posted 01/21/2011 10:14 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='22 January 2011 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1295647667' post='1181371']
Hi

TVs do not support 1080p60 yet. So that is the limitation.
[/quote]

So what do they support in 3D?
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='22 January 2011 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1295647667' post='1181371']

Hi



TVs do not support 1080p60 yet. So that is the limitation.





So what do they support in 3D?

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#67
Posted 01/21/2011 10:20 PM   
[quote name='RB19' date='21 January 2011 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1295629214' post='1181190']
Hi Andrew,
With regards to this, yes I did have to switch to other 3d modes manually using tv. The automatic 3d switch is not that important for me (I also have sky-3d, that requires me to change manually and is the main way people in the uk watch 3d content!)

I would really like 3dtvplay to enable me to manually chose other modes (perhaps an advanced option in the driver?). Checkerboard in 1080 looks so much better on the samsung tv's than 720p.

Although I can understand 3d working automatically, I think manual selection of other modes (for advanced users) would be really appreciated - I would really like 30hz frequency mode and 1080 checkerboard modes for my tv (samsung c7000).

Thanks
[/quote]

Hi

Thanks for the comments. Ok I think I understand what you want and I will discus it internally. What you are asking for was never intended to be a part of the 3DTV Play product since its all about HDMI 1.4 automatic 3D modes.
[quote name='RB19' date='21 January 2011 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1295629214' post='1181190']

Hi Andrew,

With regards to this, yes I did have to switch to other 3d modes manually using tv. The automatic 3d switch is not that important for me (I also have sky-3d, that requires me to change manually and is the main way people in the uk watch 3d content!)



I would really like 3dtvplay to enable me to manually chose other modes (perhaps an advanced option in the driver?). Checkerboard in 1080 looks so much better on the samsung tv's than 720p.



Although I can understand 3d working automatically, I think manual selection of other modes (for advanced users) would be really appreciated - I would really like 30hz frequency mode and 1080 checkerboard modes for my tv (samsung c7000).



Thanks





Hi



Thanks for the comments. Ok I think I understand what you want and I will discus it internally. What you are asking for was never intended to be a part of the 3DTV Play product since its all about HDMI 1.4 automatic 3D modes.

#68
Posted 01/21/2011 10:41 PM   
[quote name='Nobsi' date='21 January 2011 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1295635668' post='1181261']
[b]To Andrew:[/b]


Yes, while the 2 mandatory frame packing 3D formats are automatically detected by the Samsung TV, for the others (e.g. checkerboard, side-by-side, etc.) the TV must be set manually to the correct 3D mode via the 3D menu of the Samsung TV.


Selecting the checkerboard 3D mode in the Samsung menu before starting gaming is a small price to pay for the superior 3D quality the checkerboard format offers compared to 720p frame packing. So yes, checkerboard is more important than automatic 3D detection!


Ok, but I'm a 3D vision customer, not a 3DTV Play customer. I was able to use the checkerboard and page flipping mode before you integrated 3DTV Play in the driver and took away that option for me.
[/quote]

You were using the NVIDIA 3D Vision Glasses with which TV though?
[quote name='Nobsi' date='21 January 2011 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1295635668' post='1181261']

To Andrew:





Yes, while the 2 mandatory frame packing 3D formats are automatically detected by the Samsung TV, for the others (e.g. checkerboard, side-by-side, etc.) the TV must be set manually to the correct 3D mode via the 3D menu of the Samsung TV.





Selecting the checkerboard 3D mode in the Samsung menu before starting gaming is a small price to pay for the superior 3D quality the checkerboard format offers compared to 720p frame packing. So yes, checkerboard is more important than automatic 3D detection!





Ok, but I'm a 3D vision customer, not a 3DTV Play customer. I was able to use the checkerboard and page flipping mode before you integrated 3DTV Play in the driver and took away that option for me.





You were using the NVIDIA 3D Vision Glasses with which TV though?

#69
Posted 01/21/2011 10:42 PM   
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1295648421' post='1181381']
So what do they support in 3D?
[/quote]

Feel free to read the TV specs. Most are 720p60/50 and 1080p24.
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1295648421' post='1181381']

So what do they support in 3D?





Feel free to read the TV specs. Most are 720p60/50 and 1080p24.

#70
Posted 01/21/2011 10:43 PM   
[quote name='rkuo' date='20 January 2011 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1295572762' post='1180792']
Andrew, the crux of the matter is that with the current drivers, I'm forced to use 720p/60 or 1080p/24 on my Samsung TV, despite the 1080p checkerboard format being the highest quality supported 3D mode on the TV for gaming purposes.

1. The checkerboard format at 1080p is significantly superior in visual quality to 720p/60. There are quite a few HDMI 1.4 capable TV's out there that support 3D checkerboard in addition to the frame-packed formats of HDMI. In fact, I just ordered a Samsung 58PNC7000 which supports exactly this.
2. The ability to enable 3D checkerboard on HDMI 1.4 capable TV's was eliminated at some point after the 258.xx drivers, forcing the user to choose 720p/60 or 1080p/24. (3DTV Play mode)

Obviously, I paid quite a bit for the original 3D Vision bundle and I dislike the idea of this option being taken away from me in the most recent drivers.

I ordered parts to hack this all up but the drivers actually allowing me to use my TV properly is the best solution.
[/quote]

Hi

I understand your frustation.

However we have never officially supported Samsung TVs with 3D Vision in checkerboard as you are trying to do.
[quote name='rkuo' date='20 January 2011 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1295572762' post='1180792']

Andrew, the crux of the matter is that with the current drivers, I'm forced to use 720p/60 or 1080p/24 on my Samsung TV, despite the 1080p checkerboard format being the highest quality supported 3D mode on the TV for gaming purposes.



1. The checkerboard format at 1080p is significantly superior in visual quality to 720p/60. There are quite a few HDMI 1.4 capable TV's out there that support 3D checkerboard in addition to the frame-packed formats of HDMI. In fact, I just ordered a Samsung 58PNC7000 which supports exactly this.

2. The ability to enable 3D checkerboard on HDMI 1.4 capable TV's was eliminated at some point after the 258.xx drivers, forcing the user to choose 720p/60 or 1080p/24. (3DTV Play mode)



Obviously, I paid quite a bit for the original 3D Vision bundle and I dislike the idea of this option being taken away from me in the most recent drivers.



I ordered parts to hack this all up but the drivers actually allowing me to use my TV properly is the best solution.





Hi



I understand your frustation.



However we have never officially supported Samsung TVs with 3D Vision in checkerboard as you are trying to do.

#71
Posted 01/21/2011 10:44 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='21 January 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1295629511' post='1181194']
As a user of Samsung HDMI1.4 3D TV, I can tell you that by design, the samsung always needs to be manually put into 3D mode, no automatic switching. True with broadcast TV, true with Blu Ray 3D, true with 3D gaming.

Is it really that simply? This whole issue is not about checkerboard/no checkerboard, it's about required end user interaction?
Andrew, I cannot say this forcefully enough. I speak for everybody when I say that Samsung owners expect that they will need to manually switch their TVs to checkerboard mode, that's totally acceptable. If lack of automatic switching is the reason for denying checkerboard on our HDMI1.4 Samsung 3D TVs, then let the craziness end right now.
To answer your question, it is indeed more important to get checkerboard mode than to have automatic switching to 720P frame packing. Having to push the 3D button on the Samsung remote is a small price to pay for 3D gaming in checkerboard.
[/quote]

Hi

Ok i completely understand your point. I will need to discuss this internally to see if we can support this.
[quote name='roller11' date='21 January 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1295629511' post='1181194']

As a user of Samsung HDMI1.4 3D TV, I can tell you that by design, the samsung always needs to be manually put into 3D mode, no automatic switching. True with broadcast TV, true with Blu Ray 3D, true with 3D gaming.



Is it really that simply? This whole issue is not about checkerboard/no checkerboard, it's about required end user interaction?

Andrew, I cannot say this forcefully enough. I speak for everybody when I say that Samsung owners expect that they will need to manually switch their TVs to checkerboard mode, that's totally acceptable. If lack of automatic switching is the reason for denying checkerboard on our HDMI1.4 Samsung 3D TVs, then let the craziness end right now.

To answer your question, it is indeed more important to get checkerboard mode than to have automatic switching to 720P frame packing. Having to push the 3D button on the Samsung remote is a small price to pay for 3D gaming in checkerboard.





Hi



Ok i completely understand your point. I will need to discuss this internally to see if we can support this.

#72
Posted 01/21/2011 10:47 PM   
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1295648073' post='1181376']
Cant you guys use the previous drivers that allowed this option?[/quote]Yes, in fact that's what I'm doing, using old drivers. But there are two problems: Game support stops with the driver rev, so driver 258.xx only supports games prior to spring 2010. No CoD black ops, or batman, Medal of Honor etc.
Other prob is technical. When you launch a game, the big red warning is overlaid over the screen complaining "no 3D stereo signal detected". This is a false error message since the signal is not needed. But false or not, you're stuck with this retarded overlay plastered all over the screen and it never goes away. My solution was to design and build a square wave generator and plug the output into the emitter to minic the signal it was complaining about. That suppressed the message, but I still can't play any new game.
[quote]at the end of the day they want to make their cusotmers happy.[/quote]Andrew is on record as saying
"We want to make you guys happy, I just think there is perhaps so misunderstandings." see post #38. If Andrew is sincere we'll get checkerboard mode as there is no doubt that the answer to his question is "WE WANT CHECKERBOARD, NOT AUTOMATIC 3D MODE SELECTION". He knows it, he has promised it, time to put the fix in the drivers.

[quote] what will i be seeing if i get a samsung TV? 720P/60Hz if i do HDMI? what about with VGA connection? [/quote]Your choice of mode up to 1080P checkerboard. If Andrew keeps his promise, you'll just get it, nothing you need do except select checkerboard from the samsung remote. If he doesn't and we're stuck with ugly 720P by default, get out your soldering iron and build a contraption to fool the drivers. Either way, you'll be gaming in checkerboard IF you're a Samsung owner.
[quote name='Khaled_SLI' date='21 January 2011 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1295648073' post='1181376']

Cant you guys use the previous drivers that allowed this option?Yes, in fact that's what I'm doing, using old drivers. But there are two problems: Game support stops with the driver rev, so driver 258.xx only supports games prior to spring 2010. No CoD black ops, or batman, Medal of Honor etc.

Other prob is technical. When you launch a game, the big red warning is overlaid over the screen complaining "no 3D stereo signal detected". This is a false error message since the signal is not needed. But false or not, you're stuck with this retarded overlay plastered all over the screen and it never goes away. My solution was to design and build a square wave generator and plug the output into the emitter to minic the signal it was complaining about. That suppressed the message, but I still can't play any new game.

at the end of the day they want to make their cusotmers happy.
Andrew is on record as saying

"We want to make you guys happy, I just think there is perhaps so misunderstandings." see post #38. If Andrew is sincere we'll get checkerboard mode as there is no doubt that the answer to his question is "WE WANT CHECKERBOARD, NOT AUTOMATIC 3D MODE SELECTION". He knows it, he has promised it, time to put the fix in the drivers.



what will i be seeing if i get a samsung TV? 720P/60Hz if i do HDMI? what about with VGA connection?
Your choice of mode up to 1080P checkerboard. If Andrew keeps his promise, you'll just get it, nothing you need do except select checkerboard from the samsung remote. If he doesn't and we're stuck with ugly 720P by default, get out your soldering iron and build a contraption to fool the drivers. Either way, you'll be gaming in checkerboard IF you're a Samsung owner.

#73
Posted 01/21/2011 11:06 PM   
I wont be getting anything other than the SAMSUNG 3D LED screen really, so here is to hoping there will be better support for it.
I wont be getting anything other than the SAMSUNG 3D LED screen really, so here is to hoping there will be better support for it.

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#74
Posted 01/21/2011 11:12 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='21 January 2011 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1295650056' post='1181402']
Hi

Ok i completely understand your point. I will need to discuss this internally to see if we can support this.
[/quote]

Just wanted to say thank you for hearing us out.
We really would not prefer to use old drivers and hacks to get the functionality we want, so good luck in convincing the Nvidia team.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='21 January 2011 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1295650056' post='1181402']

Hi



Ok i completely understand your point. I will need to discuss this internally to see if we can support this.





Just wanted to say thank you for hearing us out.

We really would not prefer to use old drivers and hacks to get the functionality we want, so good luck in convincing the Nvidia team.

#75
Posted 01/21/2011 11:19 PM   
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