This guy gets it
  2 / 2    
Seems like the ideal solution to a 3D mode on a current VR headset is un-scaled and would have to be fixed in place, but be scalable, but im not sure this would help with motion sickness. And yeah, i agree, a lot definitely is a matter of perception. I have a suspicion that 3D Vision users reviewing the Rift/Vive (that i saw) as kinda "eh, just okay" because you are all used to such nice display setups. But check out these posts of people using the medium cinema mode in 2D. https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5fnemf/i_have_loved_all_my_vr_experiences_but_cinematic/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5fkfzh/skyrim_special_edition_in_cinema_mode_is/ Maybe this is a more balanced sample? Im not sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5csli3/one_month_in_is_anyone_still_using_cinematic_mode/ If Sony could come up with a Nvidia like "auto-stereo" solution, you'd quite possibly have 40 million new 3D enthusiasts eventually. Young and rabid, biting naysayers in the ankles all over the internet all day long. LOL Hows that for some wishful thinking...
Seems like the ideal solution to a 3D mode on a current VR headset is un-scaled and would have to be fixed in place, but be scalable, but im not sure this would help with motion sickness.

And yeah, i agree, a lot definitely is a matter of perception. I have a suspicion that 3D Vision users reviewing the Rift/Vive (that i saw) as kinda "eh, just okay" because you are all used to such nice display setups.


But check out these posts of people using the medium cinema mode in 2D.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5fnemf/i_have_loved_all_my_vr_experiences_but_cinematic/

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5fkfzh/skyrim_special_edition_in_cinema_mode_is/

Maybe this is a more balanced sample? Im not sure.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/5csli3/one_month_in_is_anyone_still_using_cinematic_mode/

If Sony could come up with a Nvidia like "auto-stereo" solution, you'd quite possibly have 40 million new 3D enthusiasts eventually. Young and rabid, biting naysayers in the ankles all over the internet all day long. LOL

Hows that for some wishful thinking...

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#16
Posted 12/01/2016 02:29 AM   
I'm speaking specifically to the premise that people could use a virtual cinema mode, as opposed to a native mode where you are actually in the game. In a native mode, you need ultra hardware, and even then as RageDemon notes, you need to hit 90 fps (maybe 45 now with ASW) as the [i]minimum[/i]. Any drops below that induce nausea. For virtual cinema mode, you can get by with a lot less. As long as the virtual theater runs at 90 fps, your head and brain will say it's all OK, even if the game is running at 30fps. 30fps is the current performance target for [i]all [/i]console games, in case you did not yet notice. That would give you an OK experience, especially with a big virtual movie style screen. You still have to have a monster computer to do super sampling, but can play in 3D. I have not used a TMZ-T2, but it's roughly comparable to a projector. 720p screen, two screens, no crosstalk. In the TMZ you get a screen at distance effect. Compared to my projector, the Rift and Vive are terrible. On the projector, I get roughly 2x the resolution as 720p, because two eyes from different angles. On the Rift, I get roughly 0.5 the resolution, because we throw away big parts of the screen for stretching and FOV. As a rough idea, I put Rift/Vive at half the resolution of a single 720p screen. That's the experience I see. There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias. God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on [i]every [/i]white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.
I'm speaking specifically to the premise that people could use a virtual cinema mode, as opposed to a native mode where you are actually in the game. In a native mode, you need ultra hardware, and even then as RageDemon notes, you need to hit 90 fps (maybe 45 now with ASW) as the minimum. Any drops below that induce nausea.


For virtual cinema mode, you can get by with a lot less. As long as the virtual theater runs at 90 fps, your head and brain will say it's all OK, even if the game is running at 30fps. 30fps is the current performance target for all console games, in case you did not yet notice.

That would give you an OK experience, especially with a big virtual movie style screen. You still have to have a monster computer to do super sampling, but can play in 3D.


I have not used a TMZ-T2, but it's roughly comparable to a projector. 720p screen, two screens, no crosstalk. In the TMZ you get a screen at distance effect.

Compared to my projector, the Rift and Vive are terrible. On the projector, I get roughly 2x the resolution as 720p, because two eyes from different angles. On the Rift, I get roughly 0.5 the resolution, because we throw away big parts of the screen for stretching and FOV. As a rough idea, I put Rift/Vive at half the resolution of a single 720p screen. That's the experience I see.


There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias.

God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on every white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.

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#17
Posted 12/01/2016 03:24 AM   
[quote="bo3b"] .... There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias. God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on [i]every [/i]white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.[/quote] Absolutely, agree with everything. I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.
bo3b said:

....

There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias.

God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on every white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.


Absolutely, agree with everything.

I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.

#18
Posted 12/01/2016 01:30 PM   
[quote="sammy123"][quote="bo3b"] .... There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias. God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on [i]every [/i]white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.[/quote] Absolutely, agree with everything. I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.[/quote] Thats crazy. Why they cant get Vive/Rift to look as good as the Sony HMZ? This is one reason I was excited about VR, I was thinking about buying a Sony HMZ for a few years ago to get rid of ghosting/crosstalk but didn't buy it because I replaced my Sony active 3DTV with a LG passive and I cant notice as much crosstalk anymore, also didnt buy because I thought Rift/Vive would be the same as a HMZ but with the addition of motion tracking. I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?
sammy123 said:
bo3b said:

....

There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias.

God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on every white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.


Absolutely, agree with everything.

I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.


Thats crazy. Why they cant get Vive/Rift to look as good as the Sony HMZ?
This is one reason I was excited about VR, I was thinking about buying a Sony HMZ for a few years ago to get rid of ghosting/crosstalk but didn't buy it because I replaced my Sony active 3DTV with a LG passive and I cant notice as much crosstalk anymore, also didnt buy because I thought Rift/Vive would be the same as a HMZ but with the addition of motion tracking. I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?

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#19
Posted 12/01/2016 01:38 PM   
[quote="J0hnnieW4lker"][quote="sammy123"][quote="bo3b"] .... There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias. God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on [i]every [/i]white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.[/quote] Absolutely, agree with everything. I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.[/quote] I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?[/quote] I wouldnt say that. Sony HMZ is not a VR device, its not really comparable to rift and vive. Sony tries to emulate cinema screen and to me it looks pretty much the same as my 120" projector screen at 3-4 meters.
J0hnnieW4lker said:
sammy123 said:
bo3b said:

....

There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias.

God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on every white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.


Absolutely, agree with everything.

I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.


I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?


I wouldnt say that. Sony HMZ is not a VR device, its not really comparable to rift and vive. Sony tries to emulate cinema screen and to me it looks pretty much the same as my 120" projector screen at 3-4 meters.

#20
Posted 12/01/2016 02:05 PM   
^^^ I dunno, the more I hear about the overall quality along with the marketing strategies, I feel like VR is doomed to fail - at least in this generation. I hope I'm wrong - I would love a great VR experience as much as anyone, but right now I don't see any reason to be an early adopter.
^^^ I dunno, the more I hear about the overall quality along with the marketing strategies, I feel like VR is doomed to fail - at least in this generation. I hope I'm wrong - I would love a great VR experience as much as anyone, but right now I don't see any reason to be an early adopter.

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#21
Posted 12/01/2016 02:07 PM   
Cool vid. I have a slightly different view than the Youtuber. I wonder what his experience would have been if he had started with DK2 with its extra three DoF.... That said, I really think S3D is a text book example of a first world injustice like Betamax v VHS. I can't be bothered to share my thoughts on the state of VR because it hasn't changed one bit, literally. The SAME three car games, with the single space game is all that is on offer for VR. All other 'games' that I have tried play like tech demos. Four games last year, same four games this year. Hmmmmm. Cinema: 3D Vision is a no brainer; better visuals and way WAY more comfortable. I'm still miffed at the movie industry with their disgraceful money grabbing 2D-3D conversions. No wonder people wouldn't give 3D a chance if the majority of their 3D experience consisted of that!
Cool vid. I have a slightly different view than the Youtuber. I wonder what his experience would have been if he had started with DK2 with its extra three DoF....

That said, I really think S3D is a text book example of a first world injustice like Betamax v VHS.

I can't be bothered to share my thoughts on the state of VR because it hasn't changed one bit, literally. The SAME three car games, with the single space game is all that is on offer for VR. All other 'games' that I have tried play like tech demos. Four games last year, same four games this year. Hmmmmm.

Cinema: 3D Vision is a no brainer; better visuals and way WAY more comfortable.

I'm still miffed at the movie industry with their disgraceful money grabbing 2D-3D conversions. No wonder people wouldn't give 3D a chance if the majority of their 3D experience consisted of that!

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#22
Posted 12/01/2016 03:15 PM   
[quote="sammy123"][quote="J0hnnieW4lker"][quote="sammy123"][quote="bo3b"] .... There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias. God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on [i]every [/i]white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.[/quote] Absolutely, agree with everything. I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.[/quote] I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?[/quote] I wouldnt say that. Sony HMZ is not a VR device, its not really comparable to rift and vive. Sony tries to emulate cinema screen and to me it looks pretty much the same as my 120" projector screen at 3-4 meters. [/quote] The way you said it seems the Sony HMZ does a much better job in terms of image quality than the Vive/Rift. I just don't understand why. Isn't it the same thing? Basically a screen on your face? Why they can't get Vive/Rift working with the same image quality as HMZ? To be honest, lately I just dont care much for motion tracking anymore, the hype is gone for me for some reason. I think it will be another Nintendo Wii kind of feeling that is soooo cool in the beginning but then became tedious and I go back to normal "lazy" playing mode laid down in my sofa.
sammy123 said:
J0hnnieW4lker said:
sammy123 said:
bo3b said:

....

There is one last kicker that makes a Rift virtual cinema a no-go in my opinion. And it's one that Redditor's either ignore purposefully or by confirmation bias.

God-rays. Complete deal breaker on Rift and to a lesser extent on Vive. Smearing, bloom type effect, that shows up on every white object, and most simply bright objects. Totally distracting. So, playing a game on virtual screen would be like video on virtual screen, and I find it unusable.


Absolutely, agree with everything.

I can also shed some light to sony hmz image quality. I have modified t1, 720p 3d vision projector and both vr headsets(well, vive sold). 720p dlp projector looks much, much better than rift/vive. Sony hmz looks very similar to 720p dlp projector, maybe slightly better.


I guess I was wrong, Rift and Vive are both crap compared to HMZ then?


I wouldnt say that. Sony HMZ is not a VR device, its not really comparable to rift and vive. Sony tries to emulate cinema screen and to me it looks pretty much the same as my 120" projector screen at 3-4 meters.


The way you said it seems the Sony HMZ does a much better job in terms of image quality than the Vive/Rift.
I just don't understand why. Isn't it the same thing? Basically a screen on your face?
Why they can't get Vive/Rift working with the same image quality as HMZ? To be honest, lately I just dont care much for motion tracking anymore, the hype is gone for me for some reason. I think it will be another Nintendo Wii kind of feeling that is soooo cool in the beginning but then became tedious and I go back to normal "lazy" playing mode laid down in my sofa.

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#23
Posted 12/01/2016 04:16 PM   
Recent HMD sales projections not looking great - see [url]http://www.gamespot.com/articles/playstation-vr-sales-estimates-downgraded-hugely-b/1100-6445859/[/url]. Hate to see another failed technology, doomed for lack of broadly accessible quality content during critical launch cycle - like 3D (beyond this forum) and 4K, so far...
Recent HMD sales projections not looking great - see http://www.gamespot.com/articles/playstation-vr-sales-estimates-downgraded-hugely-b/1100-6445859/. Hate to see another failed technology, doomed for lack of broadly accessible quality content during critical launch cycle - like 3D (beyond this forum) and 4K, so far...

#24
Posted 12/01/2016 06:08 PM   
I didn't like the HMZ-T1 at all when i tried it. Very dim, low contrast 3D with a small FOV. @JohnnieWalker: The reason it has better image quality is because the pixels aren't spread over such a high FOV. I would not recommend the T1 though, maybe the T2 and up, which i have no experience with. But my bright, low crosstalk and cheap as hell Samsung ES7500 is magnificent, IMO.
I didn't like the HMZ-T1 at all when i tried it. Very dim, low contrast 3D with a small FOV.

@JohnnieWalker: The reason it has better image quality is because the pixels aren't spread over such a high FOV. I would not recommend the T1 though, maybe the T2 and up, which i have no experience with.

But my bright, low crosstalk and cheap as hell Samsung ES7500 is magnificent, IMO.

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#25
Posted 12/01/2016 10:24 PM   
[quote="Libertine"]I didn't like the HMZ-T1 at all when i tried it. Very dim, low contrast 3D with a small FOV. @JohnnieWalker: The reason it has better image quality is because the pixels aren't spread over such a high FOV. I would not recommend the T1 though, maybe the T2 and up, which i have no experience with. But my bright, low crosstalk and cheap as hell Samsung ES7500 is magnificent, IMO.[/quote] Libertine has it right here. The reason Vive/Rift look like crap for virtual cinema is because they've stretched that FOV to give full immersion. And without enough pixels to pull it off. Based on my experiments, I put the Vive/Rift at about 1024x768 resolution, maybe a bit lower. Where I compare a same-size virtual projected screen, with my same-size physical projected screen. In real-screen, I get 2x 720p because of the two eye angles improving the quality. In VR screen, I get 0.5x 720p, because of so many lost pixels that not even two eye angles can recover it. [quote="SnickerSnack"]^^^ I dunno, the more I hear about the overall quality along with the marketing strategies, I feel like VR is doomed to fail - at least in this generation. I hope I'm wrong - I would love a great VR experience as much as anyone, but right now I don't see any reason to be an early adopter. [/quote] As a comparison to 3D Vision gaming, VR cannot hold a candle to 3D Vision, in my, um, humble opinion. But... there are some experiences in VR, that cannot be done with 3D Vision, things that are genuinely unique and compelling in their own right. I have no idea if that will be enough to save the launch, but just wanted to observe that there are some magical experiences there that justify at least part of the hype. Normal 3D gaming just is not one of them. In particular, room-scale VR has some shockingly great experiences. Raw-Data and Budget Cuts give you the feeling of genuinely being in a different place, under attack. It's a very different feel from normal gaming. Seated gaming as andysonofbob notes, can be very impressive. Dirt Rally in VR is almost better in VR than 3D gaming. The immersion is better, the feeling of driving is killer, and aaaalmost compensates for the low-res images. Probably depends upon specific people and what they prefer. For me, Dirt Rally is better in VR, but Project Cars is better in 3D Vision. [quote="andysonofbob"]That said, I really think S3D is a text book example of a first world injustice like Betamax v VHS.[/quote] Hah! I love this idea of a first-world injustice. Like Intel x86 crushing all contenders, including the sweet 68000 architecture. That one killed a tiny piece of my soul.
Libertine said:I didn't like the HMZ-T1 at all when i tried it. Very dim, low contrast 3D with a small FOV.

@JohnnieWalker: The reason it has better image quality is because the pixels aren't spread over such a high FOV. I would not recommend the T1 though, maybe the T2 and up, which i have no experience with.

But my bright, low crosstalk and cheap as hell Samsung ES7500 is magnificent, IMO.

Libertine has it right here. The reason Vive/Rift look like crap for virtual cinema is because they've stretched that FOV to give full immersion. And without enough pixels to pull it off.

Based on my experiments, I put the Vive/Rift at about 1024x768 resolution, maybe a bit lower. Where I compare a same-size virtual projected screen, with my same-size physical projected screen. In real-screen, I get 2x 720p because of the two eye angles improving the quality. In VR screen, I get 0.5x 720p, because of so many lost pixels that not even two eye angles can recover it.

SnickerSnack said:^^^ I dunno, the more I hear about the overall quality along with the marketing strategies, I feel like VR is doomed to fail - at least in this generation. I hope I'm wrong - I would love a great VR experience as much as anyone, but right now I don't see any reason to be an early adopter.

As a comparison to 3D Vision gaming, VR cannot hold a candle to 3D Vision, in my, um, humble opinion.

But... there are some experiences in VR, that cannot be done with 3D Vision, things that are genuinely unique and compelling in their own right. I have no idea if that will be enough to save the launch, but just wanted to observe that there are some magical experiences there that justify at least part of the hype. Normal 3D gaming just is not one of them.

In particular, room-scale VR has some shockingly great experiences. Raw-Data and Budget Cuts give you the feeling of genuinely being in a different place, under attack. It's a very different feel from normal gaming.

Seated gaming as andysonofbob notes, can be very impressive. Dirt Rally in VR is almost better in VR than 3D gaming. The immersion is better, the feeling of driving is killer, and aaaalmost compensates for the low-res images. Probably depends upon specific people and what they prefer. For me, Dirt Rally is better in VR, but Project Cars is better in 3D Vision.

andysonofbob said:That said, I really think S3D is a text book example of a first world injustice like Betamax v VHS.

Hah! I love this idea of a first-world injustice. Like Intel x86 crushing all contenders, including the sweet 68000 architecture. That one killed a tiny piece of my soul.

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#26
Posted 12/02/2016 12:42 AM   
Long live VHS and x86...man... I even know what Betamax, VHS and the Motorola 68000 chip is... I must be getting old... Now, where is the 4K VR headset in which I can play Battlefield 1? If I see something like this, I don't mind running miles/kilometres each day! ^_^
Long live VHS and x86...man... I even know what Betamax, VHS and the Motorola 68000 chip is... I must be getting old...

Now, where is the 4K VR headset in which I can play Battlefield 1? If I see something like this, I don't mind running miles/kilometres each day! ^_^

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#27
Posted 12/02/2016 12:49 AM   
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