Happy to see this resolved maturely in the end.
Helifax, thanks for your efforts and contributions, I hope you stick around.
Rage, it seems like you might be on to something interesting, hopefully your investigation goes well. I don't have time to help you out with results at the moment, but it seems like you're gathering some interesting data already.
Helifax, thanks for your efforts and contributions, I hope you stick around.
Rage, it seems like you might be on to something interesting, hopefully your investigation goes well. I don't have time to help you out with results at the moment, but it seems like you're gathering some interesting data already.
[quote="nimis"]Yee Helifax is back :)
Good info helifax. I plan to buy newer GPU right now I use old GTX480 and seems like it's better to buy GTX9xx GPU than GTX10xx if I play mostly games 3D 720p. My budget is new GTX1060 so I think I better find some used GTX980 that seems to be more powerful than gtx1060 and without 3D problems.
Here is my results
Witcher 3
AMD8320 4.5ghz GTX480 Win7 720p
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
28-63%(with vsync on ca. 40-51%) CPU usage
98-99% GPU usage
64-65 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
34-41% CPU usage
99% GPU usage
37-38 FPS[/quote]
I am not sure exactly what is going on. It may be a Pascal issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD+Win10 issue. However, it might just be an issue with my system so I would not make an upgrade judgment call solely on what I and some others have reported.
Back to my issue. I do not think it is purely a CPU power issue or a GPU power issue, but a bottleneck somewhere between both that ONLY becomes apparent when the 3dvision driver is activated (even with 3d off in game). As, from what others have said, 3dvision does alter how the game is processed I am pursuing the issue with Nvidia to have them tell me what they believe the root cause is.
Could it be my combination of drivers/components? Most definitely, but since the "trigger" is enabling 3dvision I am heavily leaning in Nvidia's direction for being the cause. My issue does not happen in any game at all at any setting with 3dvision disabled, but happens only in certain games (regardless of resolution/settings) when 3dvision is enabled.
My issue did get elevated to a higher tier of Nvidia support and I will happily report back their findings. Till that time I am taking a break from testing or reporting data and metrics to the forum on this issue as for me I think I have all the data I need, and this constant going around in circles is not helping anyone on the boards. It is actually doing the opposite and sowing confusion and breeding arguments.
nimis said:Yee Helifax is back :)
Good info helifax. I plan to buy newer GPU right now I use old GTX480 and seems like it's better to buy GTX9xx GPU than GTX10xx if I play mostly games 3D 720p. My budget is new GTX1060 so I think I better find some used GTX980 that seems to be more powerful than gtx1060 and without 3D problems.
Here is my results
Witcher 3
AMD8320 4.5ghz GTX480 Win7 720p
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
28-63%(with vsync on ca. 40-51%) CPU usage
98-99% GPU usage
64-65 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
34-41% CPU usage
99% GPU usage
37-38 FPS
I am not sure exactly what is going on. It may be a Pascal issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD+Win10 issue. However, it might just be an issue with my system so I would not make an upgrade judgment call solely on what I and some others have reported.
Back to my issue. I do not think it is purely a CPU power issue or a GPU power issue, but a bottleneck somewhere between both that ONLY becomes apparent when the 3dvision driver is activated (even with 3d off in game). As, from what others have said, 3dvision does alter how the game is processed I am pursuing the issue with Nvidia to have them tell me what they believe the root cause is.
Could it be my combination of drivers/components? Most definitely, but since the "trigger" is enabling 3dvision I am heavily leaning in Nvidia's direction for being the cause. My issue does not happen in any game at all at any setting with 3dvision disabled, but happens only in certain games (regardless of resolution/settings) when 3dvision is enabled.
My issue did get elevated to a higher tier of Nvidia support and I will happily report back their findings. Till that time I am taking a break from testing or reporting data and metrics to the forum on this issue as for me I think I have all the data I need, and this constant going around in circles is not helping anyone on the boards. It is actually doing the opposite and sowing confusion and breeding arguments.
thanks for uploading the doom fix guys.
I also have an weird issue that may be related to this. I was going mental trying to figure out why Damaged Core on my Oculus Rift was suddenly stuttering with low FPS, and both low GPU and CPU usage. It had ran fine before and then It just wouldn't run properly.
I wasted so much time trouble shooting drivers, USB ports, et, etc. Then suddenly it worked again, high GPU usage and 90fps with super sampling on. Again I was trying to figure out why now it was working! So it finally clicked that I had disabled 3D vision in the control panel because it was kicking it when using MadVR.
So I enabled 3D vision in the control panel and...... stutter fest with low gpu, cpu, and low fps. Went back and disabled it and worked perfectly again. Did this 4 times to make sure it was a coincidence. The 3D vision driver is messing up some games, and this was with VR.
The funny thing is that not all games are affected. I could play a bunch of other games with the 3D vision enabled and they worked fine, but some games, and it seems that they are mostly UE4 games, like Adirft or Damaged core would both run like crap with the 3D vision driver enabled.
I'm using a Titan X Pascal, and Intel 3930K processor.
I also have an weird issue that may be related to this. I was going mental trying to figure out why Damaged Core on my Oculus Rift was suddenly stuttering with low FPS, and both low GPU and CPU usage. It had ran fine before and then It just wouldn't run properly.
I wasted so much time trouble shooting drivers, USB ports, et, etc. Then suddenly it worked again, high GPU usage and 90fps with super sampling on. Again I was trying to figure out why now it was working! So it finally clicked that I had disabled 3D vision in the control panel because it was kicking it when using MadVR.
So I enabled 3D vision in the control panel and...... stutter fest with low gpu, cpu, and low fps. Went back and disabled it and worked perfectly again. Did this 4 times to make sure it was a coincidence. The 3D vision driver is messing up some games, and this was with VR.
The funny thing is that not all games are affected. I could play a bunch of other games with the 3D vision enabled and they worked fine, but some games, and it seems that they are mostly UE4 games, like Adirft or Damaged core would both run like crap with the 3D vision driver enabled.
I'm using a Titan X Pascal, and Intel 3930K processor.
Interesting. I also have Pascal Titan X, and I have not noticed low fps and stuttering with Damaged Core (great game). I have 3D Vision enabled, and I am using 1.6X supersampling. I am using i7-4960X CPU, overclocked to 4.3 GHz.
By the way, I am using a Cable Matters 4K ready DP to HDMI dongle for Rift connection, and I have set EDID modified 4K TV to display 1080p, using display scaling (not GPU). I believe that you also have LG OLED display.
Interesting. I also have Pascal Titan X, and I have not noticed low fps and stuttering with Damaged Core (great game). I have 3D Vision enabled, and I am using 1.6X supersampling. I am using i7-4960X CPU, overclocked to 4.3 GHz.
By the way, I am using a Cable Matters 4K ready DP to HDMI dongle for Rift connection, and I have set EDID modified 4K TV to display 1080p, using display scaling (not GPU). I believe that you also have LG OLED display.
Yep I've Pascal Titan X too and I noticed same behavior in RoTR (latest version). Just enabling 3dvision in nvidia control panel (but not actually using it) killed fps. CPU is intel 6700k
Yep I've Pascal Titan X too and I noticed same behavior in RoTR (latest version). Just enabling 3dvision in nvidia control panel (but not actually using it) killed fps. CPU is intel 6700k
The most recent response from Nvidia.
[quote]"The case was escalated to me for review. This does sound like a potential bug considering problem does not occur with GTX 660 Ti on the same system. The next step is to submit a bug and have our quality lab try to replicate the failure. Once we are able to replicate the failure we can have development team investigate. I think I have sufficient detail to submit the bug. Can you point me to the forum thread of other users reporting similar problem so I can review and capture any additional information that might be helpful with our investigation? Please also provide the saved game for one of the game that consistently exhibit this issue so we can focus on using that game with our investigation.
I will keep you posted on the lab progress or if we need additional details."[/quote]
I am going to send him links to a few key posts in a couple of the threads relevant to this issue. Unfortunately I am going to have to tell him to please excuse the mudslinging posts and childish behavior :(
Hopefully this leads to either a resolution or a clear explanation of why this is happening.
"The case was escalated to me for review. This does sound like a potential bug considering problem does not occur with GTX 660 Ti on the same system. The next step is to submit a bug and have our quality lab try to replicate the failure. Once we are able to replicate the failure we can have development team investigate. I think I have sufficient detail to submit the bug. Can you point me to the forum thread of other users reporting similar problem so I can review and capture any additional information that might be helpful with our investigation? Please also provide the saved game for one of the game that consistently exhibit this issue so we can focus on using that game with our investigation.
I will keep you posted on the lab progress or if we need additional details."
I am going to send him links to a few key posts in a couple of the threads relevant to this issue. Unfortunately I am going to have to tell him to please excuse the mudslinging posts and childish behavior :(
Hopefully this leads to either a resolution or a clear explanation of why this is happening.
.......but but but who's gonna fix battlefield 1?......... :D
Seriously though, it's issues like this that emphasises the affect that the absence of nvidia employees has on the forum.
This could have been cleared up days/weeks ago, if nvidia just had a bit of transparency every now and then.
Helifax, everyone likes your fixes and respects you but you are being a bit of a diva!
Maybe change your weed,/have a wank/ have a few days off/a few weeks off. (Delete as appropriate)
I don't know who is right. 90% of people on here don't have a clue how it works (including me)
People just see 3 core limit thread and instantly jump on the bandwagon as they all want free performance.
Leaving over an argument about CPU core useage though, let's just take that in for a minute......
Argument over .....CPU...... core..... useage.....
......CPU......core.....useage.
That's borderline mental!
Put the brakes on that pram, pull a U turn and get back on the bus!
There's battlefield 1......ahem.....a great community that needs you.
It's always nice to be needed.
.......but but but who's gonna fix battlefield 1?......... :D
Seriously though, it's issues like this that emphasises the affect that the absence of nvidia employees has on the forum.
This could have been cleared up days/weeks ago, if nvidia just had a bit of transparency every now and then.
Helifax, everyone likes your fixes and respects you but you are being a bit of a diva!
Maybe change your weed,/have a wank/ have a few days off/a few weeks off. (Delete as appropriate)
I don't know who is right. 90% of people on here don't have a clue how it works (including me)
People just see 3 core limit thread and instantly jump on the bandwagon as they all want free performance.
Leaving over an argument about CPU core useage though, let's just take that in for a minute......
Argument over .....CPU...... core..... useage.....
......CPU......core.....useage.
That's borderline mental!
Put the brakes on that pram, pull a U turn and get back on the bus!
There's battlefield 1......ahem.....a great community that needs you.
......every five years, looking Back i think to myself " man i was childish Back then" ....Almoust 40 now and still it continues
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[quote="GibsonRed"]
Helifax, everyone likes your fixes and respects you but you are being a bit of a diva!
[/quote]
Agree there mate;) That is exactly why, I decided to keep the current fixes live (work has already been done and there is no point on removing them just for a stupid thing). I am very impulsive by nature:) But, this doesn't mean I "hold on" to grudges or things like this. It passes as fast as they "light up".
But, in the same time I will not provide any future fixes or guides (oh I will keep on making them for my own usage). It is also a good thing as I don't have to "support" them:) Less work for me and more time to actually enjoy them (I bet this is the thing people here fail to see as well).
I'll just be "one" like everyone else :) I don't get absolutely anything out of it in the end, just more time wasted on trying to help everyone else. Well, I am done with the helping;) Especially when people try to show how "wrong" I am. Maybe I am, maybe I am not... matters absolutely zero to me now:)
If I ever decide to release something public again, it will be to a few select people (because I have a BIG RESPECT for them. I also don't think I started calling them "names", directly or indirectly. If I did, I do apologise from the bottom of my heart! It wasn't a MEANT thing).
In any case, surely, you must see my reasoning. If this is childish, so be it! (After all, we are all "children" playing with expensive "toys" here ^_^).
PS: This is the reason why others have left in the past and apparently it is an inevitable thing.
GibsonRed said:
Helifax, everyone likes your fixes and respects you but you are being a bit of a diva!
Agree there mate;) That is exactly why, I decided to keep the current fixes live (work has already been done and there is no point on removing them just for a stupid thing). I am very impulsive by nature:) But, this doesn't mean I "hold on" to grudges or things like this. It passes as fast as they "light up".
But, in the same time I will not provide any future fixes or guides (oh I will keep on making them for my own usage). It is also a good thing as I don't have to "support" them:) Less work for me and more time to actually enjoy them (I bet this is the thing people here fail to see as well).
I'll just be "one" like everyone else :) I don't get absolutely anything out of it in the end, just more time wasted on trying to help everyone else. Well, I am done with the helping;) Especially when people try to show how "wrong" I am. Maybe I am, maybe I am not... matters absolutely zero to me now:)
If I ever decide to release something public again, it will be to a few select people (because I have a BIG RESPECT for them. I also don't think I started calling them "names", directly or indirectly. If I did, I do apologise from the bottom of my heart! It wasn't a MEANT thing).
In any case, surely, you must see my reasoning. If this is childish, so be it! (After all, we are all "children" playing with expensive "toys" here ^_^).
PS: This is the reason why others have left in the past and apparently it is an inevitable thing.
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
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Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Nice thread.
I understand your methodology.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]
Your results are as follows:
Game: [color="green"]helifax's Witcher 3 test in SLi[/color]
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
48% CPU usage
70% GPU usage
201 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
43% CPU usage
80% GPU usage
133 FPS
Summary:
2D Performance 100%
3D Performance (133fps / 201fps) x 100 = 66%
CPU usage drop in 3D Vision = [(2D 48% CPU usage) - (3D 43% CPU usage)] / 2D 48% CPU usage) x 100 =[color="green"]10% CPU usage drop caused by 3D Vision[/color]
100-66 = [color="green"]33% performance drop due purely to this CPU bottleneck caused by 3D Vision.[/color]
[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage[/quote]
Does that mean that in this case there is no CPU bottleneck when Helifax is at 5Ghz?
200fps in 2D @2ghz against 200fps in 3D @5ghz.
No one tried in the past with GTA 5 to OC / Underclock to see the impact in FPS with different CPU speed?
Curious about this, no one have a Skylake 6700K with good OC to try at different speed?
[quote="zaibaker"]Nice thread.
I understand your methodology.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]
Your results are as follows:
Game: [color="green"]helifax's Witcher 3 test in SLi[/color]
Toggle 3D Vision to OFF:
48% CPU usage
70% GPU usage
201 FPS
Toggle 3D Vision to ON:
43% CPU usage
80% GPU usage
133 FPS
Summary:
2D Performance 100%
3D Performance (133fps / 201fps) x 100 = 66%
CPU usage drop in 3D Vision = [(2D 48% CPU usage) - (3D 43% CPU usage)] / 2D 48% CPU usage) x 100 =[color="green"]10% CPU usage drop caused by 3D Vision[/color]
100-66 = [color="green"]33% performance drop due purely to this CPU bottleneck caused by 3D Vision.[/color]
[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]
Clocking my CPU back to 5.0Ghz gave me the exact 200FPS limit with lower CPU usage[/quote]
Does that mean that in this case there is no CPU bottleneck when Helifax is at 5Ghz?
200fps in 2D @2ghz against 200fps in 3D @5ghz.
No one tried in the past with GTA 5 to OC / Underclock to see the impact in FPS with different CPU speed?
Curious about this, no one have a Skylake 6700K with good OC to try at different speed?[/quote]
I did:
Results:
Intel Xeon x5660 @ 4.2GHz
1 cores = 12 fps
2 cores = 40 fps, 35% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 40%
3 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
4 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
5 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
6 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
6 cores 2D = 138fps 97% 98% (toggled off), Total GPU Usage = 97%
Intel Xeon x5660 @ 2.4GHz
1 cores = 7 fps
2 cores = 25 fps, 27% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 36%
3 cores = 36 fps, 33% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 39%
4 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
5 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
6 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
6 cores 2D = 100fps 65% 65% (toggled off), Total GPU Usage = 65%
You can find more information in my original post here from a long time ago:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Clearly, the game performance and GPU usage scale up purely with the CPU clock speed. This shows that it's a CPU bottleneck, if the GPU isn't being saturated.
I am busy right now, but in a while, I would like to make a clarifying post of what CPU usage looks like on CPUs with different number of core configurations, in a hypothetical game which uses x number of threads.
A sneak peak: If a game is programmed to only use 2 threads:
2 Core CPU = 100% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
4 Core CPU = 50% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
6 core CPU = 33% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
I think a fundamental misunderstanding is that some people think that we are trying to claim the CPU with x number of cores should have 100% usage, when this is a complete misinterpretation of the investigation :)
Taking the example of:
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck,
If then 3D Vision is enabled, the CPU usage drops to 15%, it's quite clear that 3D Vision has caused this 15% CPU drop.
It is also difficult to get across the idea that the CPU will also drop if the GPU is being saturated (>95%).
This is why we must take GPU saturation out of the analysis altogether by ensuring GPU usage is less that 90% in 2D and 3D while doing our tests by lowering the resolution.
Also, I shall state again. I no longer believe there is a "core limit". I believe that 3D Vision forces the main game thread to have some other overhead, so it can't pass off its workload to other CPU threads as efficiently, so the overall CPU usage with 3D Vision becomes decreased. This in turn means the CPU is no longer able to supply enough data to the GPU for processing, which results in degraded and stuttery FPS, (more so than just low FPS that a simple GPU saturated scenario would show).
Again, I must stress, please ensure that GPU usage in 2D or 3D is not anywhere above 90% or the results are invalid :)
You can easily do this by minimising the resolution and all graphics effects such as AA.
Reading the thread again, I am glad that some people understand the methodology. If the scientifically minded can suggest improvements then they are most welcome :)
@helifax
I think it's best if I don't reply to your posts in this thread mate. I don't want to take the risk of losing a friend, if you still even consider me as such. Both of us live in the UK - perhaps sometime we can meet and I can show you I'm not such a bad guy.
We both have passions which lie in engineering, you in software and me in hardware. We both want to contribute to the community too. Although you have joined comparatively recently but done so much in a short space of time, I have been a part of the Stereovision.net, Stereo3D.com, MTBS3D.com etc communities since the late 90s. I was there when Palmer Luckey / Cybereality were posting about Oculus pre-prototypes on MTBS, being one of the first members. In fact, believe it or not, Neil Schneider approached me to be a founding member of MTBS because I was so active in the community back then, and I was for a few days but I had to exit for personal reasons. I have also written guides in the early days of shutter glasses on how to build ghosting removal circuits for projectors, how to convert 2D movies to 3D etc, all those years ago, before 3D was a thing, and even a lingering thread here with a How-To guide on the Max Depth hack.
We are not so different you and I... maybe we can show each other our 3D setups and have a good laugh about things :)
Again, I humbly apologise if I have wounded you - it was never my intention.
Regarding your fixes: Perhaps you can release them to the community as 'unsupported' so you don't have to support people. Also with a label "RAGEdemon not allowed" or something, I really don't mind - and I will honour your wishes :)
Even if you never talk to me again, I really do wish you the best going forward :)
You can find more information in my original post here from a long time ago:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Clearly, the game performance and GPU usage scale up purely with the CPU clock speed. This shows that it's a CPU bottleneck, if the GPU isn't being saturated.
I am busy right now, but in a while, I would like to make a clarifying post of what CPU usage looks like on CPUs with different number of core configurations, in a hypothetical game which uses x number of threads.
A sneak peak: If a game is programmed to only use 2 threads:
2 Core CPU = 100% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
4 Core CPU = 50% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
6 core CPU = 33% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
I think a fundamental misunderstanding is that some people think that we are trying to claim the CPU with x number of cores should have 100% usage, when this is a complete misinterpretation of the investigation :)
Taking the example of:
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck,
If then 3D Vision is enabled, the CPU usage drops to 15%, it's quite clear that 3D Vision has caused this 15% CPU drop.
It is also difficult to get across the idea that the CPU will also drop if the GPU is being saturated (>95%).
This is why we must take GPU saturation out of the analysis altogether by ensuring GPU usage is less that 90% in 2D and 3D while doing our tests by lowering the resolution.
Also, I shall state again. I no longer believe there is a "core limit". I believe that 3D Vision forces the main game thread to have some other overhead, so it can't pass off its workload to other CPU threads as efficiently, so the overall CPU usage with 3D Vision becomes decreased. This in turn means the CPU is no longer able to supply enough data to the GPU for processing, which results in degraded and stuttery FPS, (more so than just low FPS that a simple GPU saturated scenario would show).
Again, I must stress, please ensure that GPU usage in 2D or 3D is not anywhere above 90% or the results are invalid :)
You can easily do this by minimising the resolution and all graphics effects such as AA.
Reading the thread again, I am glad that some people understand the methodology. If the scientifically minded can suggest improvements then they are most welcome :)
@helifax
I think it's best if I don't reply to your posts in this thread mate. I don't want to take the risk of losing a friend, if you still even consider me as such. Both of us live in the UK - perhaps sometime we can meet and I can show you I'm not such a bad guy.
We both have passions which lie in engineering, you in software and me in hardware. We both want to contribute to the community too. Although you have joined comparatively recently but done so much in a short space of time, I have been a part of the Stereovision.net, Stereo3D.com, MTBS3D.com etc communities since the late 90s. I was there when Palmer Luckey / Cybereality were posting about Oculus pre-prototypes on MTBS, being one of the first members. In fact, believe it or not, Neil Schneider approached me to be a founding member of MTBS because I was so active in the community back then, and I was for a few days but I had to exit for personal reasons. I have also written guides in the early days of shutter glasses on how to build ghosting removal circuits for projectors, how to convert 2D movies to 3D etc, all those years ago, before 3D was a thing, and even a lingering thread here with a How-To guide on the Max Depth hack.
We are not so different you and I... maybe we can show each other our 3D setups and have a good laugh about things :)
Again, I humbly apologise if I have wounded you - it was never my intention.
Regarding your fixes: Perhaps you can release them to the community as 'unsupported' so you don't have to support people. Also with a label "RAGEdemon not allowed" or something, I really don't mind - and I will honour your wishes :)
Even if you never talk to me again, I really do wish you the best going forward :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
First of all, Helifax, I'm glad that you've come to see reason, so thanks for that.
[quote="helifax"]But, in the same time I will not provide any future fixes or guides (oh I will keep on making them for my own usage). It is also a good thing as I don't have to "support" them:) Less work for me and more time to actually enjoy them (I bet this is the thing people here fail to see as well).[/quote]
Or, y'know, you could still release them and not support them. I see it as kinda silly (and also a tad selfish) to go through the painstaking lengths of creating a fix solely for your own use, and not releasing it when it's as simple as taking 5 mins to put up a blog post. At least it will then still benefit those that are able to get it working on their own, before any patches mess things up again, and if it doesn't work then they can come and ask the rest of us end users to help out. If we can we can, if we can't then tough luck, but at least it doesn't have to come back to you if you explicitly state "No support will be provided by myself" from the get go.
Besides, I'm pretty sure you like your superstar status around here. ;) I can't imagine you *really* walking away from it all. If nothing else, I'm sure we share one thing in common: we put in the work for the love of our favorite hobby. Even if one other person gets to enjoy our work as well, then it was worth it to release it. So like someone else said, do what you gotta do to unwind, and then get back on that horse, soldier! But on the other hand, like I said before, if you decide it's time to go then thanks again for all your efforts unti now.
First of all, Helifax, I'm glad that you've come to see reason, so thanks for that.
helifax said:But, in the same time I will not provide any future fixes or guides (oh I will keep on making them for my own usage). It is also a good thing as I don't have to "support" them:) Less work for me and more time to actually enjoy them (I bet this is the thing people here fail to see as well).
Or, y'know, you could still release them and not support them. I see it as kinda silly (and also a tad selfish) to go through the painstaking lengths of creating a fix solely for your own use, and not releasing it when it's as simple as taking 5 mins to put up a blog post. At least it will then still benefit those that are able to get it working on their own, before any patches mess things up again, and if it doesn't work then they can come and ask the rest of us end users to help out. If we can we can, if we can't then tough luck, but at least it doesn't have to come back to you if you explicitly state "No support will be provided by myself" from the get go.
Besides, I'm pretty sure you like your superstar status around here. ;) I can't imagine you *really* walking away from it all. If nothing else, I'm sure we share one thing in common: we put in the work for the love of our favorite hobby. Even if one other person gets to enjoy our work as well, then it was worth it to release it. So like someone else said, do what you gotta do to unwind, and then get back on that horse, soldier! But on the other hand, like I said before, if you decide it's time to go then thanks again for all your efforts unti now.
3D Gaming Rig: CPU: i7 7700K @ 4.9Ghz | Mobo: Asus Maximus Hero VIII | RAM: Corsair Dominator 16GB | GPU: 2 x GTX 1080 Ti SLI | 3xSSDs for OS and Apps, 2 x HDD's for 11GB storage | PSU: Seasonic X-1250 M2| Case: Corsair C70 | Cooling: Corsair H115i Hydro cooler | Displays: Asus PG278QR, BenQ XL2420TX & BenQ HT1075 | OS: Windows 10 Pro + Windows 7 dual boot
I really hope Helifax reconsiders, and knows that there are many people around here that "get it" and really appreciate the contribution he has made, I won't go ahead and say its selfish to do so as I know people can be trying and he has done a lot for this community over the years and owes none of us anything.
As I have said I will be pretty upset if we loose his involvement over something stupid like this. But it seems after his comments on the Doom fix for example due to ignorant and entitled people, its been kind of snowballing of late.
He is one of the key people and reasons why this technology is still alive and without them it won't be for much longer.
But yeah, Sometimes you just got too ignore people on the internet. I quite often take a break from message boards and stuff, as it can get to you. But please don't deny the work you have done and do, to those of us that support you.
Time out is probably a good idea, but I hope its not permanent. If so, then thanks for your contributions man, and all best for the future.
I really hope Helifax reconsiders, and knows that there are many people around here that "get it" and really appreciate the contribution he has made, I won't go ahead and say its selfish to do so as I know people can be trying and he has done a lot for this community over the years and owes none of us anything.
As I have said I will be pretty upset if we loose his involvement over something stupid like this. But it seems after his comments on the Doom fix for example due to ignorant and entitled people, its been kind of snowballing of late.
He is one of the key people and reasons why this technology is still alive and without them it won't be for much longer.
But yeah, Sometimes you just got too ignore people on the internet. I quite often take a break from message boards and stuff, as it can get to you. But please don't deny the work you have done and do, to those of us that support you.
Time out is probably a good idea, but I hope its not permanent. If so, then thanks for your contributions man, and all best for the future.
i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
EVGA 1080TI SLI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
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i really don't understand why one would get offended by something someone says. I would not be offended if someone saidto me " you are not professional, or something similar" i know what i am. And if one disagree, thats his/her problem. Arguments are great, they usually at the end bring out the truth... Or don't :D but atleast there is trying. The slandering of others and oppinnions is stupid, but there is nothing wrong to disagree.
I hope Helifax realizes love matters nothing without sharing !
I don't care OpenGL fixes from helifax as They don't quite work with my hardware properly or the latency is too much for my eyeballs
.[u] But still i care about what Helifax thinks![/u]
And he has been a part of many many fixes.
And there is lots of fixes from Helifax i have Also used.
About fixes.
Helifax Don't TaKe so much preasure from helping others, if you can you can. if don't have the time, dont feel Bad about it.
At the end people are always ungratefull in some measures.
Atleast that has worked great for me when talking about Helping others.
i really don't understand why one would get offended by something someone says. I would not be offended if someone saidto me " you are not professional, or something similar" i know what i am. And if one disagree, thats his/her problem. Arguments are great, they usually at the end bring out the truth... Or don't :D but atleast there is trying. The slandering of others and oppinnions is stupid, but there is nothing wrong to disagree.
I hope Helifax realizes love matters nothing without sharing !
I don't care OpenGL fixes from helifax as They don't quite work with my hardware properly or the latency is too much for my eyeballs
. But still i care about what Helifax thinks!
And he has been a part of many many fixes.
And there is lots of fixes from Helifax i have Also used.
About fixes.
Helifax Don't TaKe so much preasure from helping others, if you can you can. if don't have the time, dont feel Bad about it.
At the end people are always ungratefull in some measures.
Atleast that has worked great for me when talking about Helping others.
CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
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Suomi - FINLAND - perkele
Overclocked Intel® Core™i5-4690k Quad Core
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3D Vision 2
Windows 10 64 Bit
NVidia driver 419.17
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Philips G-Sync 272G
Oculus Rift with Touch controlers
Helifax, thanks for your efforts and contributions, I hope you stick around.
Rage, it seems like you might be on to something interesting, hopefully your investigation goes well. I don't have time to help you out with results at the moment, but it seems like you're gathering some interesting data already.
I am not sure exactly what is going on. It may be a Pascal issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD issue. It may be a Pascal+AMD+Win10 issue. However, it might just be an issue with my system so I would not make an upgrade judgment call solely on what I and some others have reported.
Back to my issue. I do not think it is purely a CPU power issue or a GPU power issue, but a bottleneck somewhere between both that ONLY becomes apparent when the 3dvision driver is activated (even with 3d off in game). As, from what others have said, 3dvision does alter how the game is processed I am pursuing the issue with Nvidia to have them tell me what they believe the root cause is.
Could it be my combination of drivers/components? Most definitely, but since the "trigger" is enabling 3dvision I am heavily leaning in Nvidia's direction for being the cause. My issue does not happen in any game at all at any setting with 3dvision disabled, but happens only in certain games (regardless of resolution/settings) when 3dvision is enabled.
My issue did get elevated to a higher tier of Nvidia support and I will happily report back their findings. Till that time I am taking a break from testing or reporting data and metrics to the forum on this issue as for me I think I have all the data I need, and this constant going around in circles is not helping anyone on the boards. It is actually doing the opposite and sowing confusion and breeding arguments.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
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I also have an weird issue that may be related to this. I was going mental trying to figure out why Damaged Core on my Oculus Rift was suddenly stuttering with low FPS, and both low GPU and CPU usage. It had ran fine before and then It just wouldn't run properly.
I wasted so much time trouble shooting drivers, USB ports, et, etc. Then suddenly it worked again, high GPU usage and 90fps with super sampling on. Again I was trying to figure out why now it was working! So it finally clicked that I had disabled 3D vision in the control panel because it was kicking it when using MadVR.
So I enabled 3D vision in the control panel and...... stutter fest with low gpu, cpu, and low fps. Went back and disabled it and worked perfectly again. Did this 4 times to make sure it was a coincidence. The 3D vision driver is messing up some games, and this was with VR.
The funny thing is that not all games are affected. I could play a bunch of other games with the 3D vision enabled and they worked fine, but some games, and it seems that they are mostly UE4 games, like Adirft or Damaged core would both run like crap with the 3D vision driver enabled.
I'm using a Titan X Pascal, and Intel 3930K processor.
By the way, I am using a Cable Matters 4K ready DP to HDMI dongle for Rift connection, and I have set EDID modified 4K TV to display 1080p, using display scaling (not GPU). I believe that you also have LG OLED display.
I am going to send him links to a few key posts in a couple of the threads relevant to this issue. Unfortunately I am going to have to tell him to please excuse the mudslinging posts and childish behavior :(
Hopefully this leads to either a resolution or a clear explanation of why this is happening.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
Seriously though, it's issues like this that emphasises the affect that the absence of nvidia employees has on the forum.
This could have been cleared up days/weeks ago, if nvidia just had a bit of transparency every now and then.
Helifax, everyone likes your fixes and respects you but you are being a bit of a diva!
Maybe change your weed,/have a wank/ have a few days off/a few weeks off. (Delete as appropriate)
I don't know who is right. 90% of people on here don't have a clue how it works (including me)
People just see 3 core limit thread and instantly jump on the bandwagon as they all want free performance.
Leaving over an argument about CPU core useage though, let's just take that in for a minute......
Argument over .....CPU...... core..... useage.....
......CPU......core.....useage.
That's borderline mental!
Put the brakes on that pram, pull a U turn and get back on the bus!
There's battlefield 1......ahem.....a great community that needs you.
It's always nice to be needed.
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Agree there mate;) That is exactly why, I decided to keep the current fixes live (work has already been done and there is no point on removing them just for a stupid thing). I am very impulsive by nature:) But, this doesn't mean I "hold on" to grudges or things like this. It passes as fast as they "light up".
But, in the same time I will not provide any future fixes or guides (oh I will keep on making them for my own usage). It is also a good thing as I don't have to "support" them:) Less work for me and more time to actually enjoy them (I bet this is the thing people here fail to see as well).
I'll just be "one" like everyone else :) I don't get absolutely anything out of it in the end, just more time wasted on trying to help everyone else. Well, I am done with the helping;) Especially when people try to show how "wrong" I am. Maybe I am, maybe I am not... matters absolutely zero to me now:)
If I ever decide to release something public again, it will be to a few select people (because I have a BIG RESPECT for them. I also don't think I started calling them "names", directly or indirectly. If I did, I do apologise from the bottom of my heart! It wasn't a MEANT thing).
In any case, surely, you must see my reasoning. If this is childish, so be it! (After all, we are all "children" playing with expensive "toys" here ^_^).
PS: This is the reason why others have left in the past and apparently it is an inevitable thing.
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Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
I understand your methodology.
Does that mean that in this case there is no CPU bottleneck when Helifax is at 5Ghz?
200fps in 2D @2ghz against 200fps in 3D @5ghz.
No one tried in the past with GTA 5 to OC / Underclock to see the impact in FPS with different CPU speed?
Curious about this, no one have a Skylake 6700K with good OC to try at different speed?
I did:
Results:
Intel Xeon x5660 @ 4.2GHz
1 cores = 12 fps
2 cores = 40 fps, 35% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 40%
3 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
4 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
5 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
6 cores = 50 fps, 37% 60%, Total GPU Usage = 48%
6 cores 2D = 138fps 97% 98% (toggled off), Total GPU Usage = 97%
Intel Xeon x5660 @ 2.4GHz
1 cores = 7 fps
2 cores = 25 fps, 27% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 36%
3 cores = 36 fps, 33% 46%, Total GPU Usage = 39%
4 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
5 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
6 cores = 38 fps, 35% 47%, Total GPU Usage = 41%
6 cores 2D = 100fps 65% 65% (toggled off), Total GPU Usage = 65%
You can find more information in my original post here from a long time ago:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/825678/3d-vision/gta-v-problems-amp-solutions-list-please-keep-gta-discussion-here-/post/4515030/#4515030
Clearly, the game performance and GPU usage scale up purely with the CPU clock speed. This shows that it's a CPU bottleneck, if the GPU isn't being saturated.
I am busy right now, but in a while, I would like to make a clarifying post of what CPU usage looks like on CPUs with different number of core configurations, in a hypothetical game which uses x number of threads.
A sneak peak: If a game is programmed to only use 2 threads:
2 Core CPU = 100% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
4 Core CPU = 50% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
6 core CPU = 33% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck
I think a fundamental misunderstanding is that some people think that we are trying to claim the CPU with x number of cores should have 100% usage, when this is a complete misinterpretation of the investigation :)
Taking the example of:
8 core CPU = 25% usage when CPU becomes saturated and becomes a bottleneck,
If then 3D Vision is enabled, the CPU usage drops to 15%, it's quite clear that 3D Vision has caused this 15% CPU drop.
It is also difficult to get across the idea that the CPU will also drop if the GPU is being saturated (>95%).
This is why we must take GPU saturation out of the analysis altogether by ensuring GPU usage is less that 90% in 2D and 3D while doing our tests by lowering the resolution.
Also, I shall state again. I no longer believe there is a "core limit". I believe that 3D Vision forces the main game thread to have some other overhead, so it can't pass off its workload to other CPU threads as efficiently, so the overall CPU usage with 3D Vision becomes decreased. This in turn means the CPU is no longer able to supply enough data to the GPU for processing, which results in degraded and stuttery FPS, (more so than just low FPS that a simple GPU saturated scenario would show).
Again, I must stress, please ensure that GPU usage in 2D or 3D is not anywhere above 90% or the results are invalid :)
You can easily do this by minimising the resolution and all graphics effects such as AA.
Reading the thread again, I am glad that some people understand the methodology. If the scientifically minded can suggest improvements then they are most welcome :)
@helifax
I think it's best if I don't reply to your posts in this thread mate. I don't want to take the risk of losing a friend, if you still even consider me as such. Both of us live in the UK - perhaps sometime we can meet and I can show you I'm not such a bad guy.
We both have passions which lie in engineering, you in software and me in hardware. We both want to contribute to the community too. Although you have joined comparatively recently but done so much in a short space of time, I have been a part of the Stereovision.net, Stereo3D.com, MTBS3D.com etc communities since the late 90s. I was there when Palmer Luckey / Cybereality were posting about Oculus pre-prototypes on MTBS, being one of the first members. In fact, believe it or not, Neil Schneider approached me to be a founding member of MTBS because I was so active in the community back then, and I was for a few days but I had to exit for personal reasons. I have also written guides in the early days of shutter glasses on how to build ghosting removal circuits for projectors, how to convert 2D movies to 3D etc, all those years ago, before 3D was a thing, and even a lingering thread here with a How-To guide on the Max Depth hack.
We are not so different you and I... maybe we can show each other our 3D setups and have a good laugh about things :)
Again, I humbly apologise if I have wounded you - it was never my intention.
Regarding your fixes: Perhaps you can release them to the community as 'unsupported' so you don't have to support people. Also with a label "RAGEdemon not allowed" or something, I really don't mind - and I will honour your wishes :)
Even if you never talk to me again, I really do wish you the best going forward :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Or, y'know, you could still release them and not support them. I see it as kinda silly (and also a tad selfish) to go through the painstaking lengths of creating a fix solely for your own use, and not releasing it when it's as simple as taking 5 mins to put up a blog post. At least it will then still benefit those that are able to get it working on their own, before any patches mess things up again, and if it doesn't work then they can come and ask the rest of us end users to help out. If we can we can, if we can't then tough luck, but at least it doesn't have to come back to you if you explicitly state "No support will be provided by myself" from the get go.
Besides, I'm pretty sure you like your superstar status around here. ;) I can't imagine you *really* walking away from it all. If nothing else, I'm sure we share one thing in common: we put in the work for the love of our favorite hobby. Even if one other person gets to enjoy our work as well, then it was worth it to release it. So like someone else said, do what you gotta do to unwind, and then get back on that horse, soldier! But on the other hand, like I said before, if you decide it's time to go then thanks again for all your efforts unti now.
3D Gaming Rig: CPU: i7 7700K @ 4.9Ghz | Mobo: Asus Maximus Hero VIII | RAM: Corsair Dominator 16GB | GPU: 2 x GTX 1080 Ti SLI | 3xSSDs for OS and Apps, 2 x HDD's for 11GB storage | PSU: Seasonic X-1250 M2| Case: Corsair C70 | Cooling: Corsair H115i Hydro cooler | Displays: Asus PG278QR, BenQ XL2420TX & BenQ HT1075 | OS: Windows 10 Pro + Windows 7 dual boot
Like my fixes? Dontations can be made to: www.paypal.me/DShanz or rshannonca@gmail.com
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As I have said I will be pretty upset if we loose his involvement over something stupid like this. But it seems after his comments on the Doom fix for example due to ignorant and entitled people, its been kind of snowballing of late.
He is one of the key people and reasons why this technology is still alive and without them it won't be for much longer.
But yeah, Sometimes you just got too ignore people on the internet. I quite often take a break from message boards and stuff, as it can get to you. But please don't deny the work you have done and do, to those of us that support you.
Time out is probably a good idea, but I hope its not permanent. If so, then thanks for your contributions man, and all best for the future.
i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
EVGA 1080TI SLI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
ASUS Z97-WS
3D Surround ASUS Rog Swift PG278Q(R), 2x PG278Q (yes it works)
Obutto R3volution.
Windows 10 pro 64x (Windows 7 Dual boot)
I hope Helifax realizes love matters nothing without sharing !
I don't care OpenGL fixes from helifax as They don't quite work with my hardware properly or the latency is too much for my eyeballs
. But still i care about what Helifax thinks!
And he has been a part of many many fixes.
And there is lots of fixes from Helifax i have Also used.
About fixes.
Helifax Don't TaKe so much preasure from helping others, if you can you can. if don't have the time, dont feel Bad about it.
At the end people are always ungratefull in some measures.
Atleast that has worked great for me when talking about Helping others.
CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele