Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but have you tried removing the fix and playing in broken 3d? If that works without stutter, you could try putting the fix back in but without the shaderoverride directory. If that works fine, try putting the directory back but with only half the shaders. If that's broken, try the other half. You should be able to use this binary method to narrow it down.
Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but have you tried removing the fix and playing in broken 3d? If that works without stutter, you could try putting the fix back in but without the shaderoverride directory. If that works fine, try putting the directory back but with only half the shaders. If that's broken, try the other half. You should be able to use this binary method to narrow it down.
That's probably it, Pirate.
I'm too accustomed to smooth framerates, so I qualify it as "stutter". I don't think I can demonstrate, probably won't be visible even if I make a video.
Do you thin installing a framerate monitor would reveal anything interesting? Do you guys recommend any good ones that work well with 3D fixes? And what should I look for? Just the actual values appearing on screen, or are min-max, or average rates, more revealing of the issue?
Thanks
EDIT
Yes Pirate, I wanted to do that, but had already erased the AC4 profile. I'll do that in a bit, but probably not playing around with the shaders if it takes too long. But a very good idea, in case someone suspects shader replacement to be the resource hog. Though I doubt it would be isolated to one or a group of shaders.
That's probably it, Pirate.
I'm too accustomed to smooth framerates, so I qualify it as "stutter". I don't think I can demonstrate, probably won't be visible even if I make a video.
Do you thin installing a framerate monitor would reveal anything interesting? Do you guys recommend any good ones that work well with 3D fixes? And what should I look for? Just the actual values appearing on screen, or are min-max, or average rates, more revealing of the issue?
Thanks
EDIT
Yes Pirate, I wanted to do that, but had already erased the AC4 profile. I'll do that in a bit, but probably not playing around with the shaders if it takes too long. But a very good idea, in case someone suspects shader replacement to be the resource hog. Though I doubt it would be isolated to one or a group of shaders.
[quote="Zappologist"]Bo3b - here are my specs
3DVision 2 on Asus VG278H 27", SLI GTX580 EVGA, i7-2600K 3.70GHz, 8GB RAM, Win7 64bit
Good luck with the upgrade, please let us know how it goes. I hope it totally solves your stutter in 3D.[/quote]Sorry, let me be clear.
I do not get [i]any[/i] stutter with my system.
(I'm doing the upgrade for Watch Dogs, not to solve stutter).
Since I get zero stutter with a pretty similar system, I want you to try the experiment of setting all the settings to the example I gave above, and trying it.
Since it works on my system, that's what we call an existence proof- it demonstrates that it can be done, therefore we just need to narrow down the problem.
I'm pretty sure it's PhysX. In my case, PhysX on: stutter, PhysX off:smooth.
Zappologist said:Bo3b - here are my specs
3DVision 2 on Asus VG278H 27", SLI GTX580 EVGA, i7-2600K 3.70GHz, 8GB RAM, Win7 64bit
Good luck with the upgrade, please let us know how it goes. I hope it totally solves your stutter in 3D.
Sorry, let me be clear.
I do not get any stutter with my system.
(I'm doing the upgrade for Watch Dogs, not to solve stutter).
Since I get zero stutter with a pretty similar system, I want you to try the experiment of setting all the settings to the example I gave above, and trying it.
Since it works on my system, that's what we call an existence proof- it demonstrates that it can be done, therefore we just need to narrow down the problem.
I'm pretty sure it's PhysX. In my case, PhysX on: stutter, PhysX off:smooth.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
How are we all defining stutter? I consider stutter to be frequent pauses, where you'll see a significant drop in framerate for a second or less, down to a very low fps, which quickly recovers to something more reasonable.
What I'm seeing (at a guess, because I don't have any framerate monitoring software installed right now), is 50+ fps in some areas, dropping to 25-35 when there's a lot going on.
How are we all defining stutter? I consider stutter to be frequent pauses, where you'll see a significant drop in framerate for a second or less, down to a very low fps, which quickly recovers to something more reasonable.
What I'm seeing (at a guess, because I don't have any framerate monitoring software installed right now), is 50+ fps in some areas, dropping to 25-35 when there's a lot going on.
I don't believe that's the common usage of 'stutter', but it's definitely not well defined.
When I use the word stutter, I mean something that is very short term, maybe 100 milliseconds even. Stutter, like when a person stutters while speaking. In gaming, these would be dropped frames, essentially zero fps at that moment, but maybe no discernible dip in fps as reported.
I don't believe that's the common usage of 'stutter', but it's definitely not well defined.
When I use the word stutter, I mean something that is very short term, maybe 100 milliseconds even. Stutter, like when a person stutters while speaking. In gaming, these would be dropped frames, essentially zero fps at that moment, but maybe no discernible dip in fps as reported.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Hi bo3b,
At work, but will definitely try and report. But I'm pretty sure I've tried the settings you listed, and even everything on off (including PhysX) with the same “stuttery” result.
I will install Fraps as well, to see if the phenomenon can be quantified in FPS loss or something, however, as you stated, my kind of stutter maybe will not even register, or maybe just as a overall average FPS loss, which I probably would not know how to interpret.
As to the definition of "stutter", I'm not a native speaker so I picked whatever I thought was appropriate. You used the word "stall" which is probably more correct. It's not simple to define, but I think you and Pirate described the symptoms correctly. Here's an example: I’m running across the roof tops, paying attention to where I step, in order not to miss the little ropes/bridges between roofs, or beams, for example in pursuit of a thief. Because the game is [u]normally[/u] very smooth, my hand/eye coordination is already calibrated, so I know when to turn or jump while running, without thinking, as I would in real life.
But because of the stutter/stalls, I miss the bridges or beams occasionally, as the game does not respond to my mouse/keyboard commands, with the screen stalling for a millisecond. It’s not a “freeze”, because it does not happen for a long time, but the infinitesimally small lapse is enough to misjudge a turn/jump.
Don’t know if Fraps will record this in any manner, I’ll check.
I really envy you if you do not experience this. Are there any major differences between our systems? (presumably other people with different cards report this stutter as well).
That being said, I am enjoying the game immensely. I’ve done a couple more missions and I cannot believe that they really let you do what you do, probably every boy’s childhood dream, sailing the seas, boarding ships, watching dolphins etc.
And outside the cities, there is no stutter. The game is pure joy!
Hi bo3b,
At work, but will definitely try and report. But I'm pretty sure I've tried the settings you listed, and even everything on off (including PhysX) with the same “stuttery” result.
I will install Fraps as well, to see if the phenomenon can be quantified in FPS loss or something, however, as you stated, my kind of stutter maybe will not even register, or maybe just as a overall average FPS loss, which I probably would not know how to interpret.
As to the definition of "stutter", I'm not a native speaker so I picked whatever I thought was appropriate. You used the word "stall" which is probably more correct. It's not simple to define, but I think you and Pirate described the symptoms correctly. Here's an example: I’m running across the roof tops, paying attention to where I step, in order not to miss the little ropes/bridges between roofs, or beams, for example in pursuit of a thief. Because the game is normally very smooth, my hand/eye coordination is already calibrated, so I know when to turn or jump while running, without thinking, as I would in real life.
But because of the stutter/stalls, I miss the bridges or beams occasionally, as the game does not respond to my mouse/keyboard commands, with the screen stalling for a millisecond. It’s not a “freeze”, because it does not happen for a long time, but the infinitesimally small lapse is enough to misjudge a turn/jump.
Don’t know if Fraps will record this in any manner, I’ll check.
I really envy you if you do not experience this. Are there any major differences between our systems? (presumably other people with different cards report this stutter as well).
That being said, I am enjoying the game immensely. I’ve done a couple more missions and I cannot believe that they really let you do what you do, probably every boy’s childhood dream, sailing the seas, boarding ships, watching dolphins etc.
And outside the cities, there is no stutter. The game is pure joy!
@ Zappologist.
Did you try Pirate's suggestion of uninstalling the 3DMigoto fix and playing the game without it? The uninstaller is installed with the fix. You don't need to mess about with the profiles.
Also
Does it only happens in the cities then? If you are staying in the same area or standing still, does the FPS remain smooth? If so it sounds a bit like page hitching(?) where the game is loading assets from the hard drive. Does it feel like it is doing this? Often caused by the system RAM being too low or running out of space somewhere. What is your hard drive doing when it is stuttering?
All the best
[Edit]
Could it be this?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_stuttering[/url]
Did you try Pirate's suggestion of uninstalling the 3DMigoto fix and playing the game without it? The uninstaller is installed with the fix. You don't need to mess about with the profiles.
Also
Does it only happens in the cities then? If you are staying in the same area or standing still, does the FPS remain smooth? If so it sounds a bit like page hitching(?) where the game is loading assets from the hard drive. Does it feel like it is doing this? Often caused by the system RAM being too low or running out of space somewhere. What is your hard drive doing when it is stuttering?
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Hi Andy,
I'll try this tonight if I have time.
The reason I was mentioning the profiles was due to the theory that the loss of performance may also possibly come from inefficient SLI flags from the AC4 profile, so I was trying to covering more aspects with the same test. But of course just uninstalling the fix can provide some answers (though not a solution, I'm afraid).
Yes, it seems to happen only in cities, and mostly when I run arround, as if the game is loading the assets of a new area, or more characters etc. But maybe it is only more apparent when I move, because soemtimes I can miss a jump or a turn. Difficult to say, but I will try to stay in one place and see if the characters moving around also seem to stutter for a milisecond. And will install Fraps to see if fps fluctuations are detected.
Regarding micro stutering, I really hope it's not this. And would it be game-specific? I've had the sli setup in a while, and did not notice anything like what wikipedia explains. (maybe a little with BF3, but the sensation was still of "smooth" gameplay, not extremely annoying like with AC4)
Your comments about RAM and hard drive made me think at page file. SOme time ago I reduced my page file on the system partition, because apparently page files are not so important to SSD drives. Could this be an issue? Could I be running out of RAM on my 8 GB setup?
I don't detect disk activity, but I guess with SSD it's not easy to detect this.
Hi Andy,
I'll try this tonight if I have time.
The reason I was mentioning the profiles was due to the theory that the loss of performance may also possibly come from inefficient SLI flags from the AC4 profile, so I was trying to covering more aspects with the same test. But of course just uninstalling the fix can provide some answers (though not a solution, I'm afraid).
Yes, it seems to happen only in cities, and mostly when I run arround, as if the game is loading the assets of a new area, or more characters etc. But maybe it is only more apparent when I move, because soemtimes I can miss a jump or a turn. Difficult to say, but I will try to stay in one place and see if the characters moving around also seem to stutter for a milisecond. And will install Fraps to see if fps fluctuations are detected.
Regarding micro stutering, I really hope it's not this. And would it be game-specific? I've had the sli setup in a while, and did not notice anything like what wikipedia explains. (maybe a little with BF3, but the sensation was still of "smooth" gameplay, not extremely annoying like with AC4)
Your comments about RAM and hard drive made me think at page file. SOme time ago I reduced my page file on the system partition, because apparently page files are not so important to SSD drives. Could this be an issue? Could I be running out of RAM on my 8 GB setup?
I don't detect disk activity, but I guess with SSD it's not easy to detect this.
[quote="Zappologist"]Hi bo3b,
At work, but will definitely try and report. But I'm pretty sure I've tried the settings you listed, and even everything on off (including PhysX) with the same “stuttery” result.
I will install Fraps as well, to see if the phenomenon can be quantified in FPS loss or something, however, as you stated, my kind of stutter maybe will not even register, or maybe just as a overall average FPS loss, which I probably would not know how to interpret.
As to the definition of "stutter", I'm not a native speaker so I picked whatever I thought was appropriate. You used the word "stall" which is probably more correct. It's not simple to define, but I think you and Pirate described the symptoms correctly. Here's an example: I’m running across the roof tops, paying attention to where I step, in order not to miss the little ropes/bridges between roofs, or beams, for example in pursuit of a thief. Because the game is [u]normally[/u] very smooth, my hand/eye coordination is already calibrated, so I know when to turn or jump while running, without thinking, as I would in real life.
But because of the stutter/stalls, I miss the bridges or beams occasionally, as the game does not respond to my mouse/keyboard commands, with the screen stalling for a millisecond. It’s not a “freeze”, because it does not happen for a long time, but the infinitesimally small lapse is enough to misjudge a turn/jump.
Don’t know if Fraps will record this in any manner, I’ll check.
I really envy you if you do not experience this. Are there any major differences between our systems? (presumably other people with different cards report this stutter as well).
That being said, I am enjoying the game immensely. I’ve done a couple more missions and I cannot believe that they really let you do what you do, probably every boy’s childhood dream, sailing the seas, boarding ships, watching dolphins etc.
And outside the cities, there is no stutter. The game is pure joy![/quote]
Hi Zappologist - please install FRAPs and look at the FPS counter as you play the game. Alternatively, the latest GeForce Experience 2.1 has an FPS counter as well (which looks almost exactly like the FRAPS counter lol). What you are describing sounds like what most of us experience as well - slow down in cities, or with loads of NPCs around (and buttery smooth in the countryside). I have 2x770 and an i5 running at 4.5GHz and I still get slow down as well. When your FPS drops to <25 (approx) you really start to get jerky rendering on top of the fact that the FPS is slow as well (it basically all goes to shit). I have experienced the same inability to jump or fight (and hence fell or died) at some points in the game when this has happened.
Other things to check are (a) make sure you have chache shaders on in d3dx.ini, and shader hunting turned off (b) turn on shader cache for the game *in nvidia control panel* - Nvidia introduced this precisely because of jerky performance in this game (c) check your ram and HD usage as andysonofbob suggested.
I don't think that any given shader fix is causing the problem, the mods made to fixes are minimal (adding 3-10 lines in shaders that are 50-300 lines long), and shadow/lighting shaders are already some of the biggest, and most of them have only 3-line fixes in them. I also can't see how it's the shader swapping in the DLL, because that happens all the time wherever you are in game and is a "fixed cost" - the fact that it has no effect in the countryside indicates that the fixed cost must be minimal.
But seriously, please install FRAPs or use GF Experience to look at the FPS - if your problem areas are showing the same 25-30 FPS lows that I see in Havana, then we will know where we stand.
**EDIT FRAPS generates an FPS log file so you can see a history of the FPS and plot a graph to see where dips might be happening and how often.
Zappologist said:Hi bo3b,
At work, but will definitely try and report. But I'm pretty sure I've tried the settings you listed, and even everything on off (including PhysX) with the same “stuttery” result.
I will install Fraps as well, to see if the phenomenon can be quantified in FPS loss or something, however, as you stated, my kind of stutter maybe will not even register, or maybe just as a overall average FPS loss, which I probably would not know how to interpret.
As to the definition of "stutter", I'm not a native speaker so I picked whatever I thought was appropriate. You used the word "stall" which is probably more correct. It's not simple to define, but I think you and Pirate described the symptoms correctly. Here's an example: I’m running across the roof tops, paying attention to where I step, in order not to miss the little ropes/bridges between roofs, or beams, for example in pursuit of a thief. Because the game is normally very smooth, my hand/eye coordination is already calibrated, so I know when to turn or jump while running, without thinking, as I would in real life.
But because of the stutter/stalls, I miss the bridges or beams occasionally, as the game does not respond to my mouse/keyboard commands, with the screen stalling for a millisecond. It’s not a “freeze”, because it does not happen for a long time, but the infinitesimally small lapse is enough to misjudge a turn/jump.
Don’t know if Fraps will record this in any manner, I’ll check.
I really envy you if you do not experience this. Are there any major differences between our systems? (presumably other people with different cards report this stutter as well).
That being said, I am enjoying the game immensely. I’ve done a couple more missions and I cannot believe that they really let you do what you do, probably every boy’s childhood dream, sailing the seas, boarding ships, watching dolphins etc.
And outside the cities, there is no stutter. The game is pure joy!
Hi Zappologist - please install FRAPs and look at the FPS counter as you play the game. Alternatively, the latest GeForce Experience 2.1 has an FPS counter as well (which looks almost exactly like the FRAPS counter lol). What you are describing sounds like what most of us experience as well - slow down in cities, or with loads of NPCs around (and buttery smooth in the countryside). I have 2x770 and an i5 running at 4.5GHz and I still get slow down as well. When your FPS drops to <25 (approx) you really start to get jerky rendering on top of the fact that the FPS is slow as well (it basically all goes to shit). I have experienced the same inability to jump or fight (and hence fell or died) at some points in the game when this has happened.
Other things to check are (a) make sure you have chache shaders on in d3dx.ini, and shader hunting turned off (b) turn on shader cache for the game *in nvidia control panel* - Nvidia introduced this precisely because of jerky performance in this game (c) check your ram and HD usage as andysonofbob suggested.
I don't think that any given shader fix is causing the problem, the mods made to fixes are minimal (adding 3-10 lines in shaders that are 50-300 lines long), and shadow/lighting shaders are already some of the biggest, and most of them have only 3-line fixes in them. I also can't see how it's the shader swapping in the DLL, because that happens all the time wherever you are in game and is a "fixed cost" - the fact that it has no effect in the countryside indicates that the fixed cost must be minimal.
But seriously, please install FRAPs or use GF Experience to look at the FPS - if your problem areas are showing the same 25-30 FPS lows that I see in Havana, then we will know where we stand.
**EDIT FRAPS generates an FPS log file so you can see a history of the FPS and plot a graph to see where dips might be happening and how often.
Thanks Mike, will definitely try as suggested.
And please ignore my shader swapping / wrapper overhead comments, if they are not applicable. It just comes from my lack of knowledge of how your particular kind of "magic" works :-)
Thanks Mike, will definitely try as suggested.
And please ignore my shader swapping / wrapper overhead comments, if they are not applicable. It just comes from my lack of knowledge of how your particular kind of "magic" works :-)
Ok, I finally had some time to properly investigate. Here are my findings:
According to Fraps, the "stuttering" seems to be a sudden dip in fps from around 40 to 25 (incredibly, Mike had the correct minimum fps value).
I don't have enough experience with this, since it does not happen often in my gaming, but there may be something else happening which Fraps cannot detect (maybe there is even a lower fps than 25, but that's the only threshhold that Fraps can detect, or maybe there is a full stall to 0 fps, but for such a small timeframe that is not registered, don't know). This makes the game very frustrating to play.
No increase or decrease of graphics settings solves the infamous dip. The average/constant fps goes to 30 instead of 40 if I push settings too much. But the dip to 25 still occurs, no matter what the average is. It seems to indicate that something else happens when the dip occurs, since a dip from constant 30 to 25 should not impact my gaming experience so much. Or perhaps 25 is like a known "critical" low, for humans, or something.
Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.
[u]The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix.[/u] I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
(Worth noting, while playing without the wrapper and in 2D, a rain started, and the average fps became 21. It shocked me to realise that the game still felt very smooth and playable/responsive. That perhaps reveals that something else may happen apart from just a 10 fps dip in the average. Or maybe a constant average, whatever low it is, still provides a better gaming experience)
I wish I could have found a solution with my tests, so that other users can benefit. The same symptoms happened with SR4 but we luckily discovered that setting the Lights to low made the game playable for me and others.
The only thing I could do now is to test if this still happens even with better cards than mine. Maybe the wrapper is just pushing my 580s slightly beyond a certain performance threshold, and only with certain unoptimised, very taxing games. I decided not to upgrade my cards this year, so maybe other users with better cards than mine can chime in.
I'm willing to offer some of my free time with more tests, more rigorously documented if needed, if you guys have any more ideas. Thank you Mike and Bo3b for an awesome fix, and thanks to all others who provided guidance and recommendations.
Ok, I finally had some time to properly investigate. Here are my findings:
According to Fraps, the "stuttering" seems to be a sudden dip in fps from around 40 to 25 (incredibly, Mike had the correct minimum fps value).
I don't have enough experience with this, since it does not happen often in my gaming, but there may be something else happening which Fraps cannot detect (maybe there is even a lower fps than 25, but that's the only threshhold that Fraps can detect, or maybe there is a full stall to 0 fps, but for such a small timeframe that is not registered, don't know). This makes the game very frustrating to play.
No increase or decrease of graphics settings solves the infamous dip. The average/constant fps goes to 30 instead of 40 if I push settings too much. But the dip to 25 still occurs, no matter what the average is. It seems to indicate that something else happens when the dip occurs, since a dip from constant 30 to 25 should not impact my gaming experience so much. Or perhaps 25 is like a known "critical" low, for humans, or something.
Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.
The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix. I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
(Worth noting, while playing without the wrapper and in 2D, a rain started, and the average fps became 21. It shocked me to realise that the game still felt very smooth and playable/responsive. That perhaps reveals that something else may happen apart from just a 10 fps dip in the average. Or maybe a constant average, whatever low it is, still provides a better gaming experience)
I wish I could have found a solution with my tests, so that other users can benefit. The same symptoms happened with SR4 but we luckily discovered that setting the Lights to low made the game playable for me and others.
The only thing I could do now is to test if this still happens even with better cards than mine. Maybe the wrapper is just pushing my 580s slightly beyond a certain performance threshold, and only with certain unoptimised, very taxing games. I decided not to upgrade my cards this year, so maybe other users with better cards than mine can chime in.
I'm willing to offer some of my free time with more tests, more rigorously documented if needed, if you guys have any more ideas. Thank you Mike and Bo3b for an awesome fix, and thanks to all others who provided guidance and recommendations.
[quote="Zappologist"]Ok, I finally had some time to properly investigate. Here are my findings:
According to Fraps, the "stuttering" seems to be a sudden dip in fps from around 40 to 25 (incredibly, Mike had the correct minimum fps value).
I don't have enough experience with this, since it does not happen often in my gaming, but there may be something else happening which Fraps cannot detect (maybe there is even a lower fps than 25, but that's the only threshhold that Fraps can detect, or maybe there is a full stall to 0 fps, but for such a small timeframe that is not registered, don't know). This makes the game very frustrating to play.
No increase or decrease of graphics settings solves the infamous dip. The average/constant fps goes to 30 instead of 40 if I push settings too much. But the dip to 25 still occurs, no matter what the average is. It seems to indicate that something else happens when the dip occurs, since a dip from constant 30 to 25 should not impact my gaming experience so much. Or perhaps 25 is like a known "critical" low, for humans, or something.
Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.
[u]The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix.[/u] I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
(Worth noting, while playing without the wrapper and in 2D, a rain started, and the average fps became 21. It shocked me to realise that the game still felt very smooth and playable/responsive. That perhaps reveals that something else may happen apart from just a 10 fps dip in the average. Or maybe a constant average, whatever low it is, still provides a better gaming experience)
I wish I could have found a solution with my tests, so that other users can benefit. The same symptoms happened with SR4 but we luckily discovered that setting the Lights to low made the game playable for me and others.
The only thing I could do now is to test if this still happens even with better cards than mine. Maybe the wrapper is just pushing my 580s slightly beyond a certain performance threshold, and only with certain unoptimised, very taxing games. I decided not to upgrade my cards this year, so maybe other users with better cards than mine can chime in.
I'm willing to offer some of my free time with more tests, more rigorously documented if needed, if you guys have any more ideas. Thank you Mike and Bo3b for an awesome fix, and thanks to all others who provided guidance and recommendations.
[/quote]
Thanks for doing all that and explaining what happens. I'll have to defer to bo3b, if removing Migoto always and predictably stops the game stalling then I guess something is going on, but for the life of me I have no idea what.
With the CPU core thing, I read somewhere that alt-tabbing out the game, using task manager to set the affinity to just the first 3 (or perhaps 6 in your case) cores, then going back in and out of game and putting it back to all cores makes the game correctly level over all cores. I think it was this game. If you are maxing one core, that could be a bottle neck, and so whatever small things Migoto is doing could be making it worse, but that's just a guess. I think I get pretty even CPU core usage on my i5 (no HT of course). Have you looked to see if the game has issues with HT?
Zappologist said:Ok, I finally had some time to properly investigate. Here are my findings:
According to Fraps, the "stuttering" seems to be a sudden dip in fps from around 40 to 25 (incredibly, Mike had the correct minimum fps value).
I don't have enough experience with this, since it does not happen often in my gaming, but there may be something else happening which Fraps cannot detect (maybe there is even a lower fps than 25, but that's the only threshhold that Fraps can detect, or maybe there is a full stall to 0 fps, but for such a small timeframe that is not registered, don't know). This makes the game very frustrating to play.
No increase or decrease of graphics settings solves the infamous dip. The average/constant fps goes to 30 instead of 40 if I push settings too much. But the dip to 25 still occurs, no matter what the average is. It seems to indicate that something else happens when the dip occurs, since a dip from constant 30 to 25 should not impact my gaming experience so much. Or perhaps 25 is like a known "critical" low, for humans, or something.
Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.
The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix. I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
(Worth noting, while playing without the wrapper and in 2D, a rain started, and the average fps became 21. It shocked me to realise that the game still felt very smooth and playable/responsive. That perhaps reveals that something else may happen apart from just a 10 fps dip in the average. Or maybe a constant average, whatever low it is, still provides a better gaming experience)
I wish I could have found a solution with my tests, so that other users can benefit. The same symptoms happened with SR4 but we luckily discovered that setting the Lights to low made the game playable for me and others.
The only thing I could do now is to test if this still happens even with better cards than mine. Maybe the wrapper is just pushing my 580s slightly beyond a certain performance threshold, and only with certain unoptimised, very taxing games. I decided not to upgrade my cards this year, so maybe other users with better cards than mine can chime in.
I'm willing to offer some of my free time with more tests, more rigorously documented if needed, if you guys have any more ideas. Thank you Mike and Bo3b for an awesome fix, and thanks to all others who provided guidance and recommendations.
Thanks for doing all that and explaining what happens. I'll have to defer to bo3b, if removing Migoto always and predictably stops the game stalling then I guess something is going on, but for the life of me I have no idea what.
With the CPU core thing, I read somewhere that alt-tabbing out the game, using task manager to set the affinity to just the first 3 (or perhaps 6 in your case) cores, then going back in and out of game and putting it back to all cores makes the game correctly level over all cores. I think it was this game. If you are maxing one core, that could be a bottle neck, and so whatever small things Migoto is doing could be making it worse, but that's just a guess. I think I get pretty even CPU core usage on my i5 (no HT of course). Have you looked to see if the game has issues with HT?
Sorry to post again so soon. I have made a startling discovery.
Starting from the idea that the stuttering only happens when I'm in motion, I tested running forward and back 2-3 steps on a certain game "grid", to see if I can find anything interesting.
I did this while looking at the ground, to have the fewest possible graphical elements in the field of vision.
To my greatest surprise, I discovered that the game was stuttering only on certain grids. A few metters more to the left or right, and the stuttering did not occur, [u]even when running[/u].
When I did not understand why, I tried to do the same but looking level. The average fps was decreased, due to people, houses, textures in the field of vision. But the dip of 10-15 fps stayed constant and created the dreaded "stuttering". Again, two meters left or right, this did not happen.
I cannot say for certain, but it seems that the stuttering comes from certain textures that pop on and off, on certain city elements (nets, houses, verandas), when the character's moving makes them appear or disappear - [u]even when these elements are not in the field of vision[/u], as if calculated in the scene as a whole.
I don't know if that would lead to a solution, but I would appreciate if others can replicate, just to make sure I'm not completely bonkers. Will test shortly that this does not happen without the fix.
Thanks
Sorry to post again so soon. I have made a startling discovery.
Starting from the idea that the stuttering only happens when I'm in motion, I tested running forward and back 2-3 steps on a certain game "grid", to see if I can find anything interesting.
I did this while looking at the ground, to have the fewest possible graphical elements in the field of vision.
To my greatest surprise, I discovered that the game was stuttering only on certain grids. A few metters more to the left or right, and the stuttering did not occur, even when running.
When I did not understand why, I tried to do the same but looking level. The average fps was decreased, due to people, houses, textures in the field of vision. But the dip of 10-15 fps stayed constant and created the dreaded "stuttering". Again, two meters left or right, this did not happen.
I cannot say for certain, but it seems that the stuttering comes from certain textures that pop on and off, on certain city elements (nets, houses, verandas), when the character's moving makes them appear or disappear - even when these elements are not in the field of vision, as if calculated in the scene as a whole.
I don't know if that would lead to a solution, but I would appreciate if others can replicate, just to make sure I'm not completely bonkers. Will test shortly that this does not happen without the fix.
Thanks
Sorry I've only skimmed through this so I might have missed the obvious, but have you checked VRAM usage on your cards? Generally, the biggest stuttering in a game is normally caused when textures are pulled from system memory (or disk) into the VRAM on the cards. The most effective way to stop that is lower AA, or lower texture detail.
Sorry I've only skimmed through this so I might have missed the obvious, but have you checked VRAM usage on your cards? Generally, the biggest stuttering in a game is normally caused when textures are pulled from system memory (or disk) into the VRAM on the cards. The most effective way to stop that is lower AA, or lower texture detail.
GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
I'm too accustomed to smooth framerates, so I qualify it as "stutter". I don't think I can demonstrate, probably won't be visible even if I make a video.
Do you thin installing a framerate monitor would reveal anything interesting? Do you guys recommend any good ones that work well with 3D fixes? And what should I look for? Just the actual values appearing on screen, or are min-max, or average rates, more revealing of the issue?
Thanks
EDIT
Yes Pirate, I wanted to do that, but had already erased the AC4 profile. I'll do that in a bit, but probably not playing around with the shaders if it takes too long. But a very good idea, in case someone suspects shader replacement to be the resource hog. Though I doubt it would be isolated to one or a group of shaders.
I do not get any stutter with my system.
(I'm doing the upgrade for Watch Dogs, not to solve stutter).
Since I get zero stutter with a pretty similar system, I want you to try the experiment of setting all the settings to the example I gave above, and trying it.
Since it works on my system, that's what we call an existence proof- it demonstrates that it can be done, therefore we just need to narrow down the problem.
I'm pretty sure it's PhysX. In my case, PhysX on: stutter, PhysX off:smooth.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
What I'm seeing (at a guess, because I don't have any framerate monitoring software installed right now), is 50+ fps in some areas, dropping to 25-35 when there's a lot going on.
When I use the word stutter, I mean something that is very short term, maybe 100 milliseconds even. Stutter, like when a person stutters while speaking. In gaming, these would be dropped frames, essentially zero fps at that moment, but maybe no discernible dip in fps as reported.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
At work, but will definitely try and report. But I'm pretty sure I've tried the settings you listed, and even everything on off (including PhysX) with the same “stuttery” result.
I will install Fraps as well, to see if the phenomenon can be quantified in FPS loss or something, however, as you stated, my kind of stutter maybe will not even register, or maybe just as a overall average FPS loss, which I probably would not know how to interpret.
As to the definition of "stutter", I'm not a native speaker so I picked whatever I thought was appropriate. You used the word "stall" which is probably more correct. It's not simple to define, but I think you and Pirate described the symptoms correctly. Here's an example: I’m running across the roof tops, paying attention to where I step, in order not to miss the little ropes/bridges between roofs, or beams, for example in pursuit of a thief. Because the game is normally very smooth, my hand/eye coordination is already calibrated, so I know when to turn or jump while running, without thinking, as I would in real life.
But because of the stutter/stalls, I miss the bridges or beams occasionally, as the game does not respond to my mouse/keyboard commands, with the screen stalling for a millisecond. It’s not a “freeze”, because it does not happen for a long time, but the infinitesimally small lapse is enough to misjudge a turn/jump.
Don’t know if Fraps will record this in any manner, I’ll check.
I really envy you if you do not experience this. Are there any major differences between our systems? (presumably other people with different cards report this stutter as well).
That being said, I am enjoying the game immensely. I’ve done a couple more missions and I cannot believe that they really let you do what you do, probably every boy’s childhood dream, sailing the seas, boarding ships, watching dolphins etc.
And outside the cities, there is no stutter. The game is pure joy!
Did you try Pirate's suggestion of uninstalling the 3DMigoto fix and playing the game without it? The uninstaller is installed with the fix. You don't need to mess about with the profiles.
Also
Does it only happens in the cities then? If you are staying in the same area or standing still, does the FPS remain smooth? If so it sounds a bit like page hitching(?) where the game is loading assets from the hard drive. Does it feel like it is doing this? Often caused by the system RAM being too low or running out of space somewhere. What is your hard drive doing when it is stuttering?
All the best
[Edit]
Could it be this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_stuttering
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
I'll try this tonight if I have time.
The reason I was mentioning the profiles was due to the theory that the loss of performance may also possibly come from inefficient SLI flags from the AC4 profile, so I was trying to covering more aspects with the same test. But of course just uninstalling the fix can provide some answers (though not a solution, I'm afraid).
Yes, it seems to happen only in cities, and mostly when I run arround, as if the game is loading the assets of a new area, or more characters etc. But maybe it is only more apparent when I move, because soemtimes I can miss a jump or a turn. Difficult to say, but I will try to stay in one place and see if the characters moving around also seem to stutter for a milisecond. And will install Fraps to see if fps fluctuations are detected.
Regarding micro stutering, I really hope it's not this. And would it be game-specific? I've had the sli setup in a while, and did not notice anything like what wikipedia explains. (maybe a little with BF3, but the sensation was still of "smooth" gameplay, not extremely annoying like with AC4)
Your comments about RAM and hard drive made me think at page file. SOme time ago I reduced my page file on the system partition, because apparently page files are not so important to SSD drives. Could this be an issue? Could I be running out of RAM on my 8 GB setup?
I don't detect disk activity, but I guess with SSD it's not easy to detect this.
Hi Zappologist - please install FRAPs and look at the FPS counter as you play the game. Alternatively, the latest GeForce Experience 2.1 has an FPS counter as well (which looks almost exactly like the FRAPS counter lol). What you are describing sounds like what most of us experience as well - slow down in cities, or with loads of NPCs around (and buttery smooth in the countryside). I have 2x770 and an i5 running at 4.5GHz and I still get slow down as well. When your FPS drops to <25 (approx) you really start to get jerky rendering on top of the fact that the FPS is slow as well (it basically all goes to shit). I have experienced the same inability to jump or fight (and hence fell or died) at some points in the game when this has happened.
Other things to check are (a) make sure you have chache shaders on in d3dx.ini, and shader hunting turned off (b) turn on shader cache for the game *in nvidia control panel* - Nvidia introduced this precisely because of jerky performance in this game (c) check your ram and HD usage as andysonofbob suggested.
I don't think that any given shader fix is causing the problem, the mods made to fixes are minimal (adding 3-10 lines in shaders that are 50-300 lines long), and shadow/lighting shaders are already some of the biggest, and most of them have only 3-line fixes in them. I also can't see how it's the shader swapping in the DLL, because that happens all the time wherever you are in game and is a "fixed cost" - the fact that it has no effect in the countryside indicates that the fixed cost must be minimal.
But seriously, please install FRAPs or use GF Experience to look at the FPS - if your problem areas are showing the same 25-30 FPS lows that I see in Havana, then we will know where we stand.
**EDIT FRAPS generates an FPS log file so you can see a history of the FPS and plot a graph to see where dips might be happening and how often.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
And please ignore my shader swapping / wrapper overhead comments, if they are not applicable. It just comes from my lack of knowledge of how your particular kind of "magic" works :-)
According to Fraps, the "stuttering" seems to be a sudden dip in fps from around 40 to 25 (incredibly, Mike had the correct minimum fps value).
I don't have enough experience with this, since it does not happen often in my gaming, but there may be something else happening which Fraps cannot detect (maybe there is even a lower fps than 25, but that's the only threshhold that Fraps can detect, or maybe there is a full stall to 0 fps, but for such a small timeframe that is not registered, don't know). This makes the game very frustrating to play.
No increase or decrease of graphics settings solves the infamous dip. The average/constant fps goes to 30 instead of 40 if I push settings too much. But the dip to 25 still occurs, no matter what the average is. It seems to indicate that something else happens when the dip occurs, since a dip from constant 30 to 25 should not impact my gaming experience so much. Or perhaps 25 is like a known "critical" low, for humans, or something.
Shader chache on, both in the ini and in Nvidia panel. The 580s have a balanced load. The eight CPU cores are very unbalanced, with one going to full load, while others having no load. RAM goes up to 2.5GB of the max 8GB. No detectable SDD activity.
The dip is present both in 3D and in 2D. The only thing that solves the fps dip is if I delete the Migoto fix. I even tried deleting the corrected shaders from ShaderFixes folder. The game is broken as in vanilla, but just the fact that the fix is actively hooking/wrapping/activating dlls, (whatever it's doing, sorry for my ignorance) seems to be enough to cause the fps dip.
(Worth noting, while playing without the wrapper and in 2D, a rain started, and the average fps became 21. It shocked me to realise that the game still felt very smooth and playable/responsive. That perhaps reveals that something else may happen apart from just a 10 fps dip in the average. Or maybe a constant average, whatever low it is, still provides a better gaming experience)
I wish I could have found a solution with my tests, so that other users can benefit. The same symptoms happened with SR4 but we luckily discovered that setting the Lights to low made the game playable for me and others.
The only thing I could do now is to test if this still happens even with better cards than mine. Maybe the wrapper is just pushing my 580s slightly beyond a certain performance threshold, and only with certain unoptimised, very taxing games. I decided not to upgrade my cards this year, so maybe other users with better cards than mine can chime in.
I'm willing to offer some of my free time with more tests, more rigorously documented if needed, if you guys have any more ideas. Thank you Mike and Bo3b for an awesome fix, and thanks to all others who provided guidance and recommendations.
Thanks for doing all that and explaining what happens. I'll have to defer to bo3b, if removing Migoto always and predictably stops the game stalling then I guess something is going on, but for the life of me I have no idea what.
With the CPU core thing, I read somewhere that alt-tabbing out the game, using task manager to set the affinity to just the first 3 (or perhaps 6 in your case) cores, then going back in and out of game and putting it back to all cores makes the game correctly level over all cores. I think it was this game. If you are maxing one core, that could be a bottle neck, and so whatever small things Migoto is doing could be making it worse, but that's just a guess. I think I get pretty even CPU core usage on my i5 (no HT of course). Have you looked to see if the game has issues with HT?
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
Starting from the idea that the stuttering only happens when I'm in motion, I tested running forward and back 2-3 steps on a certain game "grid", to see if I can find anything interesting.
I did this while looking at the ground, to have the fewest possible graphical elements in the field of vision.
To my greatest surprise, I discovered that the game was stuttering only on certain grids. A few metters more to the left or right, and the stuttering did not occur, even when running.
When I did not understand why, I tried to do the same but looking level. The average fps was decreased, due to people, houses, textures in the field of vision. But the dip of 10-15 fps stayed constant and created the dreaded "stuttering". Again, two meters left or right, this did not happen.
I cannot say for certain, but it seems that the stuttering comes from certain textures that pop on and off, on certain city elements (nets, houses, verandas), when the character's moving makes them appear or disappear - even when these elements are not in the field of vision, as if calculated in the scene as a whole.
I don't know if that would lead to a solution, but I would appreciate if others can replicate, just to make sure I'm not completely bonkers. Will test shortly that this does not happen without the fix.
Thanks
GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310