[quote="Volnaiskra"]
Though This whole 4K thing is concerning me a bit. I want all the extra horsepower of next-gen machines (new consoles, 22nm GPUs, etc.) to be used for better graphics, better physics, more sophisticated lighting, etc. But if this 4K thing really takes off, it will divert much of those new resources into extra pixels. I don't want my next-gen games to look just like today's games but with higher resolution :([/quote]
4K is just the word of the day. Even as a 3D gamer / PC enthusiast. I cant afford it and not many can. The average gamer probably upgrades once every 4 years.
I agree though, its a lot of waste. Like 1080P + a bit of AA is near perfect to me. Sure 4k will give better results but at x5 cost doesn't sound worth it. I think everyone just thinks the movement is bigger then it is. Nvidia/amd are pushing it because it costs practically nothing to publicize it and frankly its a lot of revenue/future revenue.
I really can't see 4K having more users then multimonitor within then next 5 years.
Volnaiskra said:
Though This whole 4K thing is concerning me a bit. I want all the extra horsepower of next-gen machines (new consoles, 22nm GPUs, etc.) to be used for better graphics, better physics, more sophisticated lighting, etc. But if this 4K thing really takes off, it will divert much of those new resources into extra pixels. I don't want my next-gen games to look just like today's games but with higher resolution :(
4K is just the word of the day. Even as a 3D gamer / PC enthusiast. I cant afford it and not many can. The average gamer probably upgrades once every 4 years.
I agree though, its a lot of waste. Like 1080P + a bit of AA is near perfect to me. Sure 4k will give better results but at x5 cost doesn't sound worth it. I think everyone just thinks the movement is bigger then it is. Nvidia/amd are pushing it because it costs practically nothing to publicize it and frankly its a lot of revenue/future revenue.
I really can't see 4K having more users then multimonitor within then next 5 years.
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Yeah, I think you're right. The consoles have everyone excited about XboxOne and PS4, so AMD and Nvidia decided they need something in the PC space to get people excited about, so they push 4K. It's mainly something people talk excitedly about as opposed to own - kind of like the Oculus Rift, hehe.
It's weird though. 3Dvision only requires 2x the power for an experience that's MUCH better. 4K requires 4x the power for an experience that's slightly better. Yet everyone's hyped up about the latter. It seems just plain irrational to me, so I don't really know if I can predict how people will behave.
But I am inclined to agree with your prediction. 4K will be like Surround gaming for several years at least: Those who want it will have it, some will absolutely swear by it, but it won't actually be a driving force in game development.
Yeah, I think you're right. The consoles have everyone excited about XboxOne and PS4, so AMD and Nvidia decided they need something in the PC space to get people excited about, so they push 4K. It's mainly something people talk excitedly about as opposed to own - kind of like the Oculus Rift, hehe.
It's weird though. 3Dvision only requires 2x the power for an experience that's MUCH better. 4K requires 4x the power for an experience that's slightly better. Yet everyone's hyped up about the latter. It seems just plain irrational to me, so I don't really know if I can predict how people will behave.
But I am inclined to agree with your prediction. 4K will be like Surround gaming for several years at least: Those who want it will have it, some will absolutely swear by it, but it won't actually be a driving force in game development.
I have to agree with Volnaiskra.
I had seiki 4k tv and 720p(pj) 3d vision gaming is much more immersive than that. Note that seiki is only 30hz(40 after custom settings), but it gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from a 4k gaming. Dont get me wrong, it looks pretty sweet, but to me 3d enhances the graphics & visuals much more than 4k.
I had seiki 4k tv and 720p(pj) 3d vision gaming is much more immersive than that. Note that seiki is only 30hz(40 after custom settings), but it gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from a 4k gaming. Dont get me wrong, it looks pretty sweet, but to me 3d enhances the graphics & visuals much more than 4k.
Checking reddit as usual I found a thread about headtracking responsiveness, which I found interesting regarding Volnaiskra claim of headtracking lag, check it out:
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1pb4gk/those_of_you_who_have_tried_the_rift_how_smooth/
Overall all of them agree that it's basically perfect, at least on VR native apps. Yeah, it's an oculus reddit thread, so it's a bit biased, but interesting nonetheless.
Overall all of them agree that it's basically perfect, at least on VR native apps. Yeah, it's an oculus reddit thread, so it's a bit biased, but interesting nonetheless.
All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com
As an nvidia 3D projector user and rift dev kit tester, I'd like to weigh in.
[b]rift+[/b]
First, the rift isn't using nvidia 3D to create it's 3D effect, so it's able to be far more platform compatible, and without the restrictions that nvidia has created for their 3D vision.
It plays games essentially using 2 warped cameras, so it avoids the Zdepth related issues we see so much in nvidia 3D.
You can look around you! (which is cool, however, I haven't played with it much, and never played any serious games - but I can see this is definitely an advantage in certain games. It's definitely weird being inside.
Hydra + Rift = Epic. There are games with positional body tracking, so you can duck, jump, and hold a gun in your hand. Having the HMD makes it far easier to stay in the game than playing similar hydra games on a projector.
Resolution on the dev kits is lame, it'll be better on full versions. Hopefully it's 2K or 2304x1440 or greater, so you get a decent angular res per eye. It could definitely use 4K per eye, but we all know that's not happening any time soon.
[b]nvidia 3D[/b]
My 3D projector can be enjoyed by 4 folks with the 4 pairs of active 3D glasses right now, a rift, cannot be enjoyed by friends.
3D projector + hydra gaming is awesome.
Motion sickness isn't a problem; I got over it in about 20 hours.
3D movies... with friends.
Sadly, nvidia locked out openGL 3D so it doesn't work with openGL games.
I might get a rift, but right now 3D gaming is really awesome.
As an nvidia 3D projector user and rift dev kit tester, I'd like to weigh in.
rift+
First, the rift isn't using nvidia 3D to create it's 3D effect, so it's able to be far more platform compatible, and without the restrictions that nvidia has created for their 3D vision.
It plays games essentially using 2 warped cameras, so it avoids the Zdepth related issues we see so much in nvidia 3D.
You can look around you! (which is cool, however, I haven't played with it much, and never played any serious games - but I can see this is definitely an advantage in certain games. It's definitely weird being inside.
Hydra + Rift = Epic. There are games with positional body tracking, so you can duck, jump, and hold a gun in your hand. Having the HMD makes it far easier to stay in the game than playing similar hydra games on a projector.
Resolution on the dev kits is lame, it'll be better on full versions. Hopefully it's 2K or 2304x1440 or greater, so you get a decent angular res per eye. It could definitely use 4K per eye, but we all know that's not happening any time soon.
nvidia 3D
My 3D projector can be enjoyed by 4 folks with the 4 pairs of active 3D glasses right now, a rift, cannot be enjoyed by friends.
3D projector + hydra gaming is awesome.
Motion sickness isn't a problem; I got over it in about 20 hours.
3D movies... with friends.
Sadly, nvidia locked out openGL 3D so it doesn't work with openGL games.
I might get a rift, but right now 3D gaming is really awesome.
Volnaiskra was kind enough to lend me his Rift, here are my initial impressions:
This thing will be incredible once it's hit the second generation, and given the very pragmatic "when it's done" approach they've been taking towards the initial consumer launch it's going to be pretty damn great then too, I should think. Right now, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had.
------SET UP / HARDWARE------
*WEAR HEADPHONES*
Seriously, the added immersion from switching from speakers to headphones cannot be overstated. They’re vital. Secondly, turn off the lights. It prevents light from leaking in, further embedding you in the rift. Finally, an illuminated keyboard really comes in handy when you’re peeking out in the dark to adjust something. I leave my keyboard lights off for normal use, but they were handy for Rifting.
First off, some general thoughts. It's very easy to set this thing up for a less-than-optimal experience, and I have to suspect that may be the case for some of you. First of all, the Rift should be set as your primary monitor. This is a pain in the posterior, but it makes for a much smoother, more hassle-free experience. There are likely rift-native applications that this doesn't matter for, but most games I tried benefited greatly, especially in the head tracking department. Disabling vsync is also a must. Display type should be set to extended, and not mirrored. Again - this is a pain to deal with because the desktop is unusable on the Rift, and you sometimes have to put it on and waggle your mouse to try and find title bars to drag programs to your "secondary" screen. Hopefully they find a way to simplify this.
As everyone everywhere has pointed out, the screen is not optimal. A boost to 1080p will be a significant improvement, but it does need more. There are issues with blur while moving, colour fringing, etc. I trust these will be resolved with time. The fact that it's wired is also a hindrance, it would be best used with a controller and a swivel chair/standing.
As for the game setup, there are several ways to get things going. Native, Vireio Perception driver (free), VorpX (~$40 driver), and our old friend Tridef. These all work with varying success depending on the game. Most of my experiences involved Tridef. Tridef doesn't tend to generate perfect results every time, but it's pretty good. Every now and then you'll get broken effects, but if the game has a profile it's generally fairly reasonable. Nothing we haven't seen before.
A quick note on the 3d: it's just as good as 3d vision for depth. You can adjust depth/convergence with Tridef (which seemed to be rendering in real 3d, not depthbuffer), and looking "past" objects that were close caused them to split about the same distance apart as I'd see on my monitor.
------HEAD TRACKING------
On the topic of head tracking, I found the whole experience was hugely improved if I stood in front of my desk with a controller, and used headtracking as much as possible. It certainly involved some strafing to avoid having to turn past the cords, and doing a 360 to look just a little further around, but if you really commit to using the headtracking it becomes so much more immersive - otherwise you're just sitting with a screen on your face. I also cannot recommend highly enough the use of a controller. Thumbsticks may suck to aim with, but it gives you the freedom to really take advantage of the headtracking (provided you only use the right stick when you absolutely have to).
It's important to note that headtracking in anything other than a native title is a glorified mouselook, and you often need to adjust mouse sensitivity in-game to get proper 1:1 movement. For the most part, this works fairly well, but there are some limitations. The biggest problem with non-native games is that they like to take over the camera. But not in the cutscene-type ways you're probably imagining. Grab a ladder or interact with an object in most games, and the camera will point upwards, or centre on the object. This is helpful on a monitor, but on the rift you'll find your head pointed forward, with your view pointed at the sky. It's not too disconcerting and can be compensated for with a thumbstick, but it is a little immersion-breaking.
------MOTION SICKNESS------
For the two "serious" game sessions I've had (Mirror's Edge, HL2) I've started to feel a little queasy almost exactly an hour in. It goes away after 15 minutes or so, and isn’t too bad. This is apparently highly variable, though I wonder how much of this is caused by incorrectly configured setups (leading to more tracking lag)
Volnaiskra was kind enough to lend me his Rift, here are my initial impressions:
This thing will be incredible once it's hit the second generation, and given the very pragmatic "when it's done" approach they've been taking towards the initial consumer launch it's going to be pretty damn great then too, I should think. Right now, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had.
------SET UP / HARDWARE------
*WEAR HEADPHONES*
Seriously, the added immersion from switching from speakers to headphones cannot be overstated. They’re vital. Secondly, turn off the lights. It prevents light from leaking in, further embedding you in the rift. Finally, an illuminated keyboard really comes in handy when you’re peeking out in the dark to adjust something. I leave my keyboard lights off for normal use, but they were handy for Rifting.
First off, some general thoughts. It's very easy to set this thing up for a less-than-optimal experience, and I have to suspect that may be the case for some of you. First of all, the Rift should be set as your primary monitor. This is a pain in the posterior, but it makes for a much smoother, more hassle-free experience. There are likely rift-native applications that this doesn't matter for, but most games I tried benefited greatly, especially in the head tracking department. Disabling vsync is also a must. Display type should be set to extended, and not mirrored. Again - this is a pain to deal with because the desktop is unusable on the Rift, and you sometimes have to put it on and waggle your mouse to try and find title bars to drag programs to your "secondary" screen. Hopefully they find a way to simplify this.
As everyone everywhere has pointed out, the screen is not optimal. A boost to 1080p will be a significant improvement, but it does need more. There are issues with blur while moving, colour fringing, etc. I trust these will be resolved with time. The fact that it's wired is also a hindrance, it would be best used with a controller and a swivel chair/standing.
As for the game setup, there are several ways to get things going. Native, Vireio Perception driver (free), VorpX (~$40 driver), and our old friend Tridef. These all work with varying success depending on the game. Most of my experiences involved Tridef. Tridef doesn't tend to generate perfect results every time, but it's pretty good. Every now and then you'll get broken effects, but if the game has a profile it's generally fairly reasonable. Nothing we haven't seen before.
A quick note on the 3d: it's just as good as 3d vision for depth. You can adjust depth/convergence with Tridef (which seemed to be rendering in real 3d, not depthbuffer), and looking "past" objects that were close caused them to split about the same distance apart as I'd see on my monitor.
------HEAD TRACKING------
On the topic of head tracking, I found the whole experience was hugely improved if I stood in front of my desk with a controller, and used headtracking as much as possible. It certainly involved some strafing to avoid having to turn past the cords, and doing a 360 to look just a little further around, but if you really commit to using the headtracking it becomes so much more immersive - otherwise you're just sitting with a screen on your face. I also cannot recommend highly enough the use of a controller. Thumbsticks may suck to aim with, but it gives you the freedom to really take advantage of the headtracking (provided you only use the right stick when you absolutely have to).
It's important to note that headtracking in anything other than a native title is a glorified mouselook, and you often need to adjust mouse sensitivity in-game to get proper 1:1 movement. For the most part, this works fairly well, but there are some limitations. The biggest problem with non-native games is that they like to take over the camera. But not in the cutscene-type ways you're probably imagining. Grab a ladder or interact with an object in most games, and the camera will point upwards, or centre on the object. This is helpful on a monitor, but on the rift you'll find your head pointed forward, with your view pointed at the sky. It's not too disconcerting and can be compensated for with a thumbstick, but it is a little immersion-breaking.
------MOTION SICKNESS------
For the two "serious" game sessions I've had (Mirror's Edge, HL2) I've started to feel a little queasy almost exactly an hour in. It goes away after 15 minutes or so, and isn’t too bad. This is apparently highly variable, though I wonder how much of this is caused by incorrectly configured setups (leading to more tracking lag)
------GAMES------
So far I've tried Rift Coaster, Tuscany, Mirror's Edge, Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs, HL2, Outlast. Here are my thoughts:
Tuscany is boring. It's a tiny map, and unless it's the very first thing you try you're unlikely to be impressed by it. I tried the coaster first, so this had a very "meh" reaction from me. You can tell even on the Rift's display that it's using low res textures. I was kinda hoping for a real graphical showcase.
Rift Coaster is pretty cool. I didn't find myself falling over (even while standing, as I've seen people do on youtube), but you do get a sense of motion. It’s short and on a loop, not much more to say.
Mirror's Edge is a little annoying to set up. It apparently works on the free Vireio Perception drivers, but I couldn't get a satisfactory result out of that. Fortunately I have a Tridef license from the pre-Helix Bioshock Infinite days. Updated to the latest version, installed the Rift beta patch from the Tridef forums over the top, and modified an ini file for a high FOV (110). Mirror's Edge with the rift is really something else. Because there's no HUD, it plays really nicely. The chase/running sections work really well with headtracking, and you'll only occasionally need to compensate with a thumbstick. The more "puzzley" sections which involve a lot of spirals, 180 turns etc don't fare so well though. It does tend to grab control of the camera a bit (particularly when climbing and interacting), but it’s not too bad in that respect. I found myself skipping the (first person) cutscenes just because I’ve seen them all so many times, but if you’re prone to motion sickness I can imagine them giving you a hard time.
If I found ME annoying to set up, Amnesia was a nightmare. First off, it’s openGL so none of the existing wrappers work with it (including, as we all know, 3d vision). I found a program called OculusOverlay which can take any content (2d or SBS 3d) and convert it to a rift-friendly output. It took a little tweaking to get right, but I eventually got a large 2d screen to take up most of my field of view. Unfortunately, this is far as I got. I found another program called OpenTrack which could map Rift movement to mouse movement, however for some reason it only worked in the menus. It was a long shot, but it didn’t pay off in the end.
HL2 was excellent, but had some issues. To start with the good, headtracking was perfect and setup was easy. If you play with a controller and stand up while doing so, you’ll really feel like you’re looking at the characters (through a screen door). I was having a fantastic time, right up until I was given a weapon. My head controlled the look direction, my right thumbstick (or mouse had I been using one) controlled the weapon. As I was mostly using headtracking for navigation, this meant it was very easy to leave my weapon/arms pointing in the opposite direction to my head. This makes shooting a huge challenge on a low-res screen, as you first have to find where your crosshair is in relation to the screen, then hunt down a small cluster of pale yellow pixels against a (often pale) background. There’s also the fact that thumbsticks suck for aiming, but there has to be a better way to deal with both not “losing” the crosshairs, and actually aiming with them. I can imagine the Steam controller making this a lot more intuitive.
Outlast is a little buggy under Tridef, but it’s restricted to only a few effects. It also took a little more tweaking to get it playable, as the default mouse sensitivity is a fair way from being 1:1 with emulated headtracking, and the horizontal and vertical mouse speeds are slightly different. I had to edit a few ini files to get the FOV and mouse movement working correctly. Once ingame though, my god. Jump scares are very effective when you’re strapped into a screen. I want to see how far I can get in this one, I imagine that will be a function of both how frequent the visual anomalies are, and how much clean underwear I have.
I’ve got a laundry list of other Rift demos and non-rift titles to check out, I’ll post back when I have more to share. But in short, I’m impressed. It’s still got a lot of rough edges to file down, but the core experience has the potential to be outstanding.
So far I've tried Rift Coaster, Tuscany, Mirror's Edge, Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs, HL2, Outlast. Here are my thoughts:
Tuscany is boring. It's a tiny map, and unless it's the very first thing you try you're unlikely to be impressed by it. I tried the coaster first, so this had a very "meh" reaction from me. You can tell even on the Rift's display that it's using low res textures. I was kinda hoping for a real graphical showcase.
Rift Coaster is pretty cool. I didn't find myself falling over (even while standing, as I've seen people do on youtube), but you do get a sense of motion. It’s short and on a loop, not much more to say.
Mirror's Edge is a little annoying to set up. It apparently works on the free Vireio Perception drivers, but I couldn't get a satisfactory result out of that. Fortunately I have a Tridef license from the pre-Helix Bioshock Infinite days. Updated to the latest version, installed the Rift beta patch from the Tridef forums over the top, and modified an ini file for a high FOV (110). Mirror's Edge with the rift is really something else. Because there's no HUD, it plays really nicely. The chase/running sections work really well with headtracking, and you'll only occasionally need to compensate with a thumbstick. The more "puzzley" sections which involve a lot of spirals, 180 turns etc don't fare so well though. It does tend to grab control of the camera a bit (particularly when climbing and interacting), but it’s not too bad in that respect. I found myself skipping the (first person) cutscenes just because I’ve seen them all so many times, but if you’re prone to motion sickness I can imagine them giving you a hard time.
If I found ME annoying to set up, Amnesia was a nightmare. First off, it’s openGL so none of the existing wrappers work with it (including, as we all know, 3d vision). I found a program called OculusOverlay which can take any content (2d or SBS 3d) and convert it to a rift-friendly output. It took a little tweaking to get right, but I eventually got a large 2d screen to take up most of my field of view. Unfortunately, this is far as I got. I found another program called OpenTrack which could map Rift movement to mouse movement, however for some reason it only worked in the menus. It was a long shot, but it didn’t pay off in the end.
HL2 was excellent, but had some issues. To start with the good, headtracking was perfect and setup was easy. If you play with a controller and stand up while doing so, you’ll really feel like you’re looking at the characters (through a screen door). I was having a fantastic time, right up until I was given a weapon. My head controlled the look direction, my right thumbstick (or mouse had I been using one) controlled the weapon. As I was mostly using headtracking for navigation, this meant it was very easy to leave my weapon/arms pointing in the opposite direction to my head. This makes shooting a huge challenge on a low-res screen, as you first have to find where your crosshair is in relation to the screen, then hunt down a small cluster of pale yellow pixels against a (often pale) background. There’s also the fact that thumbsticks suck for aiming, but there has to be a better way to deal with both not “losing” the crosshairs, and actually aiming with them. I can imagine the Steam controller making this a lot more intuitive.
Outlast is a little buggy under Tridef, but it’s restricted to only a few effects. It also took a little more tweaking to get it playable, as the default mouse sensitivity is a fair way from being 1:1 with emulated headtracking, and the horizontal and vertical mouse speeds are slightly different. I had to edit a few ini files to get the FOV and mouse movement working correctly. Once ingame though, my god. Jump scares are very effective when you’re strapped into a screen. I want to see how far I can get in this one, I imagine that will be a function of both how frequent the visual anomalies are, and how much clean underwear I have.
I’ve got a laundry list of other Rift demos and non-rift titles to check out, I’ll post back when I have more to share. But in short, I’m impressed. It’s still got a lot of rough edges to file down, but the core experience has the potential to be outstanding.
Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.
All I want to know about the rift is: Is there any double imaging when objects get close to the screen and are there hud problems like 3d vision?
Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.
All I want to know about the rift is: Is there any double imaging when objects get close to the screen and are there hud problems like 3d vision?
Model: Clevo P570WM Laptop
GPU: GeForce GTX 980M ~8GB GDDR5
CPU: Intel Core i7-4960X CPU +4.2GHz (12 CPUs)
Memory: 32GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3L 1600MHz, 4x8gb
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate
Fantastic review, pirate.
A few recommendations:
If you have vorpx, try System Shock 2, it works really well. Thief 1 and 2 only work in 2d, but even in 2d they're pretty immersive. They need the direct3d 9 renderers. On tridef they have some weird texture effect on the ground. Also Jericho works really well with Vorpx with geometry 3d.
With Tridef, I've found that Risen 1 works well with first person command, Gothic 3 with community patch, and also Timeshift.
A few recommendations:
If you have vorpx, try System Shock 2, it works really well. Thief 1 and 2 only work in 2d, but even in 2d they're pretty immersive. They need the direct3d 9 renderers. On tridef they have some weird texture effect on the ground. Also Jericho works really well with Vorpx with geometry 3d.
With Tridef, I've found that Risen 1 works well with first person command, Gothic 3 with community patch, and also Timeshift.
All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com
[quote="Shinra358"]Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.
All I want to know about the rift is: Is there any double imaging when objects get close to the screen and are there hud problems like 3d vision?[/quote]
It's not pointless with an FOV of 110 degrees. 1080 is still going to have really chunky pixels. There's clearly a trade-off of needing more horsepower, but this thing isn't coming out till next fall at the earliest. 1440p is probably the ideal sweetspot at this point. If you don't have the horsepower, then just upscale from a lower rendering resolution. Otherwise, it's coming out next fall. And so are the next generation of Nvidia cards. An 860ti would probably handle the vast majority of 1440p games just fine.
Shinra358 said:Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.
All I want to know about the rift is: Is there any double imaging when objects get close to the screen and are there hud problems like 3d vision?
It's not pointless with an FOV of 110 degrees. 1080 is still going to have really chunky pixels. There's clearly a trade-off of needing more horsepower, but this thing isn't coming out till next fall at the earliest. 1440p is probably the ideal sweetspot at this point. If you don't have the horsepower, then just upscale from a lower rendering resolution. Otherwise, it's coming out next fall. And so are the next generation of Nvidia cards. An 860ti would probably handle the vast majority of 1440p games just fine.
[quote="Shinra358"]Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.[/quote]Sorry, but this is just wrong. Read up on arc-seconds of display view for a more complete picture. As Paul noted, when you stretch your pixels to 110 degrees, even 1080p isn't even close to cutting it.
Earlier, I had questioned whether any phone makers would create higher DPI screens, since 350 or 400 DPI does essentially go past what your eye can resolve at arms length. It's expensive, it burns battery power, and you can't see a difference. But that is all irrelevant, because Samsung has announced they are planning to make a 560 DPI 4K screen for phones. 1440p late 2014, 2160p in 2015.
This naturally translates directly into something that Oculus could thus afford to use.
[url]http://www.gizbot.com/mobile/samsung-plans-to-launch-phones-with-560ppi-in-2014-4k-phones-in-2015-014417.html[/url]
Let's give a shout out to Volnaiskra who argued that they would do seemingly irrational things just for bragging rights. You were right.
Shinra358 said:Going past 1080p is pointless imo. Higher resolution means higher machine power which would mean more expensive specs. If a game was made for native 4k resolutions, you would have no space left at all on your pc.
Sorry, but this is just wrong. Read up on arc-seconds of display view for a more complete picture. As Paul noted, when you stretch your pixels to 110 degrees, even 1080p isn't even close to cutting it.
Earlier, I had questioned whether any phone makers would create higher DPI screens, since 350 or 400 DPI does essentially go past what your eye can resolve at arms length. It's expensive, it burns battery power, and you can't see a difference. But that is all irrelevant, because Samsung has announced they are planning to make a 560 DPI 4K screen for phones. 1440p late 2014, 2160p in 2015.
This naturally translates directly into something that Oculus could thus afford to use.
Shinra358, you're completely wrong on that. 1080p will not be a high enough resolution for the rift. It would be good enough for a first consumer release....just. But it will need to go up from there. The current screen is usable and you can have a great experience with it, but it's not yet close to where I'd like it to be. That said, I've read about modifications which involve putting a monitor privacy screen inside the rift. That almost completely eliminates the screen door effect, at the expense of slightly blurring the image. This could be incorporated into the final product to potentially improve the impression.
As for the ghosting you're talking about? No. You're effectively seeing a totally different screen for each eye, so it is physically impossible to experience ghosting. It's possible to crank the convergence high enough that you see a double image, but that's not much of a risk. As for HUD problems though, yes. There are hud problems, because the screen doesn't have a high enough resolution to really read much, so at this stage you can only make use of very minimal hud elements.
Shinra358, you're completely wrong on that. 1080p will not be a high enough resolution for the rift. It would be good enough for a first consumer release....just. But it will need to go up from there. The current screen is usable and you can have a great experience with it, but it's not yet close to where I'd like it to be. That said, I've read about modifications which involve putting a monitor privacy screen inside the rift. That almost completely eliminates the screen door effect, at the expense of slightly blurring the image. This could be incorporated into the final product to potentially improve the impression.
As for the ghosting you're talking about? No. You're effectively seeing a totally different screen for each eye, so it is physically impossible to experience ghosting. It's possible to crank the convergence high enough that you see a double image, but that's not much of a risk. As for HUD problems though, yes. There are hud problems, because the screen doesn't have a high enough resolution to really read much, so at this stage you can only make use of very minimal hud elements.
[quote="Pirateguybrush"] As for HUD problems though, yes. There are hud problems, because the screen doesn't have a high enough resolution to really read much, so at this stage you can only make use of very minimal hud elements.[/quote]
http://youtu.be/rTLKS0G9NIc
Pirateguybrush said: As for HUD problems though, yes. There are hud problems, because the screen doesn't have a high enough resolution to really read much, so at this stage you can only make use of very minimal hud elements.
4K is just the word of the day. Even as a 3D gamer / PC enthusiast. I cant afford it and not many can. The average gamer probably upgrades once every 4 years.
I agree though, its a lot of waste. Like 1080P + a bit of AA is near perfect to me. Sure 4k will give better results but at x5 cost doesn't sound worth it. I think everyone just thinks the movement is bigger then it is. Nvidia/amd are pushing it because it costs practically nothing to publicize it and frankly its a lot of revenue/future revenue.
I really can't see 4K having more users then multimonitor within then next 5 years.
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It's weird though. 3Dvision only requires 2x the power for an experience that's MUCH better. 4K requires 4x the power for an experience that's slightly better. Yet everyone's hyped up about the latter. It seems just plain irrational to me, so I don't really know if I can predict how people will behave.
But I am inclined to agree with your prediction. 4K will be like Surround gaming for several years at least: Those who want it will have it, some will absolutely swear by it, but it won't actually be a driving force in game development.
I had seiki 4k tv and 720p(pj) 3d vision gaming is much more immersive than that. Note that seiki is only 30hz(40 after custom settings), but it gives me a pretty good idea what to expect from a 4k gaming. Dont get me wrong, it looks pretty sweet, but to me 3d enhances the graphics & visuals much more than 4k.
http://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1pb4gk/those_of_you_who_have_tried_the_rift_how_smooth/
Overall all of them agree that it's basically perfect, at least on VR native apps. Yeah, it's an oculus reddit thread, so it's a bit biased, but interesting nonetheless.
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rift+
First, the rift isn't using nvidia 3D to create it's 3D effect, so it's able to be far more platform compatible, and without the restrictions that nvidia has created for their 3D vision.
It plays games essentially using 2 warped cameras, so it avoids the Zdepth related issues we see so much in nvidia 3D.
You can look around you! (which is cool, however, I haven't played with it much, and never played any serious games - but I can see this is definitely an advantage in certain games. It's definitely weird being inside.
Hydra + Rift = Epic. There are games with positional body tracking, so you can duck, jump, and hold a gun in your hand. Having the HMD makes it far easier to stay in the game than playing similar hydra games on a projector.
Resolution on the dev kits is lame, it'll be better on full versions. Hopefully it's 2K or 2304x1440 or greater, so you get a decent angular res per eye. It could definitely use 4K per eye, but we all know that's not happening any time soon.
nvidia 3D
My 3D projector can be enjoyed by 4 folks with the 4 pairs of active 3D glasses right now, a rift, cannot be enjoyed by friends.
3D projector + hydra gaming is awesome.
Motion sickness isn't a problem; I got over it in about 20 hours.
3D movies... with friends.
Sadly, nvidia locked out openGL 3D so it doesn't work with openGL games.
I might get a rift, but right now 3D gaming is really awesome.
This thing will be incredible once it's hit the second generation, and given the very pragmatic "when it's done" approach they've been taking towards the initial consumer launch it's going to be pretty damn great then too, I should think. Right now, there's a lot of enjoyment to be had.
------SET UP / HARDWARE------
*WEAR HEADPHONES*
Seriously, the added immersion from switching from speakers to headphones cannot be overstated. They’re vital. Secondly, turn off the lights. It prevents light from leaking in, further embedding you in the rift. Finally, an illuminated keyboard really comes in handy when you’re peeking out in the dark to adjust something. I leave my keyboard lights off for normal use, but they were handy for Rifting.
First off, some general thoughts. It's very easy to set this thing up for a less-than-optimal experience, and I have to suspect that may be the case for some of you. First of all, the Rift should be set as your primary monitor. This is a pain in the posterior, but it makes for a much smoother, more hassle-free experience. There are likely rift-native applications that this doesn't matter for, but most games I tried benefited greatly, especially in the head tracking department. Disabling vsync is also a must. Display type should be set to extended, and not mirrored. Again - this is a pain to deal with because the desktop is unusable on the Rift, and you sometimes have to put it on and waggle your mouse to try and find title bars to drag programs to your "secondary" screen. Hopefully they find a way to simplify this.
As everyone everywhere has pointed out, the screen is not optimal. A boost to 1080p will be a significant improvement, but it does need more. There are issues with blur while moving, colour fringing, etc. I trust these will be resolved with time. The fact that it's wired is also a hindrance, it would be best used with a controller and a swivel chair/standing.
As for the game setup, there are several ways to get things going. Native, Vireio Perception driver (free), VorpX (~$40 driver), and our old friend Tridef. These all work with varying success depending on the game. Most of my experiences involved Tridef. Tridef doesn't tend to generate perfect results every time, but it's pretty good. Every now and then you'll get broken effects, but if the game has a profile it's generally fairly reasonable. Nothing we haven't seen before.
A quick note on the 3d: it's just as good as 3d vision for depth. You can adjust depth/convergence with Tridef (which seemed to be rendering in real 3d, not depthbuffer), and looking "past" objects that were close caused them to split about the same distance apart as I'd see on my monitor.
------HEAD TRACKING------
On the topic of head tracking, I found the whole experience was hugely improved if I stood in front of my desk with a controller, and used headtracking as much as possible. It certainly involved some strafing to avoid having to turn past the cords, and doing a 360 to look just a little further around, but if you really commit to using the headtracking it becomes so much more immersive - otherwise you're just sitting with a screen on your face. I also cannot recommend highly enough the use of a controller. Thumbsticks may suck to aim with, but it gives you the freedom to really take advantage of the headtracking (provided you only use the right stick when you absolutely have to).
It's important to note that headtracking in anything other than a native title is a glorified mouselook, and you often need to adjust mouse sensitivity in-game to get proper 1:1 movement. For the most part, this works fairly well, but there are some limitations. The biggest problem with non-native games is that they like to take over the camera. But not in the cutscene-type ways you're probably imagining. Grab a ladder or interact with an object in most games, and the camera will point upwards, or centre on the object. This is helpful on a monitor, but on the rift you'll find your head pointed forward, with your view pointed at the sky. It's not too disconcerting and can be compensated for with a thumbstick, but it is a little immersion-breaking.
------MOTION SICKNESS------
For the two "serious" game sessions I've had (Mirror's Edge, HL2) I've started to feel a little queasy almost exactly an hour in. It goes away after 15 minutes or so, and isn’t too bad. This is apparently highly variable, though I wonder how much of this is caused by incorrectly configured setups (leading to more tracking lag)
So far I've tried Rift Coaster, Tuscany, Mirror's Edge, Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs, HL2, Outlast. Here are my thoughts:
Tuscany is boring. It's a tiny map, and unless it's the very first thing you try you're unlikely to be impressed by it. I tried the coaster first, so this had a very "meh" reaction from me. You can tell even on the Rift's display that it's using low res textures. I was kinda hoping for a real graphical showcase.
Rift Coaster is pretty cool. I didn't find myself falling over (even while standing, as I've seen people do on youtube), but you do get a sense of motion. It’s short and on a loop, not much more to say.
Mirror's Edge is a little annoying to set up. It apparently works on the free Vireio Perception drivers, but I couldn't get a satisfactory result out of that. Fortunately I have a Tridef license from the pre-Helix Bioshock Infinite days. Updated to the latest version, installed the Rift beta patch from the Tridef forums over the top, and modified an ini file for a high FOV (110). Mirror's Edge with the rift is really something else. Because there's no HUD, it plays really nicely. The chase/running sections work really well with headtracking, and you'll only occasionally need to compensate with a thumbstick. The more "puzzley" sections which involve a lot of spirals, 180 turns etc don't fare so well though. It does tend to grab control of the camera a bit (particularly when climbing and interacting), but it’s not too bad in that respect. I found myself skipping the (first person) cutscenes just because I’ve seen them all so many times, but if you’re prone to motion sickness I can imagine them giving you a hard time.
If I found ME annoying to set up, Amnesia was a nightmare. First off, it’s openGL so none of the existing wrappers work with it (including, as we all know, 3d vision). I found a program called OculusOverlay which can take any content (2d or SBS 3d) and convert it to a rift-friendly output. It took a little tweaking to get right, but I eventually got a large 2d screen to take up most of my field of view. Unfortunately, this is far as I got. I found another program called OpenTrack which could map Rift movement to mouse movement, however for some reason it only worked in the menus. It was a long shot, but it didn’t pay off in the end.
HL2 was excellent, but had some issues. To start with the good, headtracking was perfect and setup was easy. If you play with a controller and stand up while doing so, you’ll really feel like you’re looking at the characters (through a screen door). I was having a fantastic time, right up until I was given a weapon. My head controlled the look direction, my right thumbstick (or mouse had I been using one) controlled the weapon. As I was mostly using headtracking for navigation, this meant it was very easy to leave my weapon/arms pointing in the opposite direction to my head. This makes shooting a huge challenge on a low-res screen, as you first have to find where your crosshair is in relation to the screen, then hunt down a small cluster of pale yellow pixels against a (often pale) background. There’s also the fact that thumbsticks suck for aiming, but there has to be a better way to deal with both not “losing” the crosshairs, and actually aiming with them. I can imagine the Steam controller making this a lot more intuitive.
Outlast is a little buggy under Tridef, but it’s restricted to only a few effects. It also took a little more tweaking to get it playable, as the default mouse sensitivity is a fair way from being 1:1 with emulated headtracking, and the horizontal and vertical mouse speeds are slightly different. I had to edit a few ini files to get the FOV and mouse movement working correctly. Once ingame though, my god. Jump scares are very effective when you’re strapped into a screen. I want to see how far I can get in this one, I imagine that will be a function of both how frequent the visual anomalies are, and how much clean underwear I have.
I’ve got a laundry list of other Rift demos and non-rift titles to check out, I’ll post back when I have more to share. But in short, I’m impressed. It’s still got a lot of rough edges to file down, but the core experience has the potential to be outstanding.
All I want to know about the rift is: Is there any double imaging when objects get close to the screen and are there hud problems like 3d vision?
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A few recommendations:
If you have vorpx, try System Shock 2, it works really well. Thief 1 and 2 only work in 2d, but even in 2d they're pretty immersive. They need the direct3d 9 renderers. On tridef they have some weird texture effect on the ground. Also Jericho works really well with Vorpx with geometry 3d.
With Tridef, I've found that Risen 1 works well with first person command, Gothic 3 with community patch, and also Timeshift.
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It's not pointless with an FOV of 110 degrees. 1080 is still going to have really chunky pixels. There's clearly a trade-off of needing more horsepower, but this thing isn't coming out till next fall at the earliest. 1440p is probably the ideal sweetspot at this point. If you don't have the horsepower, then just upscale from a lower rendering resolution. Otherwise, it's coming out next fall. And so are the next generation of Nvidia cards. An 860ti would probably handle the vast majority of 1440p games just fine.
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Earlier, I had questioned whether any phone makers would create higher DPI screens, since 350 or 400 DPI does essentially go past what your eye can resolve at arms length. It's expensive, it burns battery power, and you can't see a difference. But that is all irrelevant, because Samsung has announced they are planning to make a 560 DPI 4K screen for phones. 1440p late 2014, 2160p in 2015.
This naturally translates directly into something that Oculus could thus afford to use.
http://www.gizbot.com/mobile/samsung-plans-to-launch-phones-with-560ppi-in-2014-4k-phones-in-2015-014417.html
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As for the ghosting you're talking about? No. You're effectively seeing a totally different screen for each eye, so it is physically impossible to experience ghosting. It's possible to crank the convergence high enough that you see a double image, but that's not much of a risk. As for HUD problems though, yes. There are hud problems, because the screen doesn't have a high enough resolution to really read much, so at this stage you can only make use of very minimal hud elements.
http://youtu.be/rTLKS0G9NIc
Model: Clevo P570WM Laptop
GPU: GeForce GTX 980M ~8GB GDDR5
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OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate