The 22" iZ3D Stereoscopic Monitor
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Does anyone own one of these?
Do you notice any ghosting like the old shutterglasses?
Has anyone tried BioShock, Jericho, or the Orange Box on it?


Thanks a bunch.. trying to decide if an alternative to the eMagin z800 is worth it. :)
Does anyone own one of these?

Do you notice any ghosting like the old shutterglasses?

Has anyone tried BioShock, Jericho, or the Orange Box on it?





Thanks a bunch.. trying to decide if an alternative to the eMagin z800 is worth it. :)

#1
Posted 11/06/2007 09:14 PM   
Ghosting iseems to be much better in bright areas but much worse in dark areas compared to CRT. There is also a mildish tinting effect.

Bioshock runs in stereo but the performance isn't great, still though its quite playable.
Orange box runs amazingly well.

I would say that overall, the ghosting is the same as CRT, tinting causes minor problems, but on the plus side, it supports post processing effects, so you can play games with HDR, motion blur and all the eye candy in its full glory.

If ghosting doesn't bother you then you will be amazingly happy with this purchase.

The drivers are also updated regularly.

nVidia, sit up and take note. Who am I kidding, noone fron NV frequents these forums... they have given us some obscure corner of the forum where stereogamers can complain as much as we want and not bother any "normal" people in the main forums ;)
Ghosting iseems to be much better in bright areas but much worse in dark areas compared to CRT. There is also a mildish tinting effect.



Bioshock runs in stereo but the performance isn't great, still though its quite playable.

Orange box runs amazingly well.



I would say that overall, the ghosting is the same as CRT, tinting causes minor problems, but on the plus side, it supports post processing effects, so you can play games with HDR, motion blur and all the eye candy in its full glory.



If ghosting doesn't bother you then you will be amazingly happy with this purchase.



The drivers are also updated regularly.



nVidia, sit up and take note. Who am I kidding, noone fron NV frequents these forums... they have given us some obscure corner of the forum where stereogamers can complain as much as we want and not bother any "normal" people in the main forums ;)

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#2
Posted 11/06/2007 10:59 PM   
I've owned the 22" model for a little over a month now, and I can say that it has single-handedly restored my desire to play video games.

I made another short post regarding this monitor...[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=49834&view=findpost&p=274965"]read it here.[/url]

As for ghosting, it's definitely there, but I hardly notice it once I've set the convergence and separation appropriately for the environment I'm currently exploring in a game. In Half Life 2, for example, I tweak the stereo parameters depending on whether I'm indoors or out. It only takes a second, and it makes all the difference in the world for ghost-minimization.

HL2 is AWESOME played in stereo, as is Far Cry. The stereo effect in Bioshock is not as convincing for some reason, and furthermore, my video card (GeForce 7900GS) isn't up to the task of rendering the necessary FPS in this game (I need at least 40FPS or I won't bother playing it). I also played the Crysis demo...looks fantastic (like its little bro' Far Cry), but again, very low FPS.

Once iZ3D delivers their DirectX 10 driver, I'll likely upgrade to one of nVidia's 8 series cards and give Bioshock and Crysis another go.

It's safe to say I am now a total S-3D convert, and likely won't bother playing a game unless it's stereo-capable.
I've owned the 22" model for a little over a month now, and I can say that it has single-handedly restored my desire to play video games.



I made another short post regarding this monitor...read it here.



As for ghosting, it's definitely there, but I hardly notice it once I've set the convergence and separation appropriately for the environment I'm currently exploring in a game. In Half Life 2, for example, I tweak the stereo parameters depending on whether I'm indoors or out. It only takes a second, and it makes all the difference in the world for ghost-minimization.



HL2 is AWESOME played in stereo, as is Far Cry. The stereo effect in Bioshock is not as convincing for some reason, and furthermore, my video card (GeForce 7900GS) isn't up to the task of rendering the necessary FPS in this game (I need at least 40FPS or I won't bother playing it). I also played the Crysis demo...looks fantastic (like its little bro' Far Cry), but again, very low FPS.



Once iZ3D delivers their DirectX 10 driver, I'll likely upgrade to one of nVidia's 8 series cards and give Bioshock and Crysis another go.



It's safe to say I am now a total S-3D convert, and likely won't bother playing a game unless it's stereo-capable.

#3
Posted 11/07/2007 01:34 AM   
I appreciate your input and welcome to stereo gaming.

But, I must ask you about the ghosting issue. I'm sure that you are well aware of how a stereo image is perceived. With low convergence or separation or with high, a double image, no matter where on the screen will still produce equal ghosting unless the separation is next to zero (where the object producing the ghost image is overlapping) and the convergence is mid way in the screen so the mid point of the scene is at screen depth. Sorry, but these settings are just unplayable.

Low separation means there is virtually no stereo, and mid screen convergence especially for large outdoor scenes will cause too much eye strain, unless of course it is combined with low convergence in the first place... no offence intended but could it be possible that you are experiencing a placebo effect?
The myth that lower depth and convergence settings produce lower ghosting has been around for a long time.

May I ask if you have tried a ghostless solution too to compare the image quality? I agree that the mind learns to filter out the ghosting, but i am sure that not even the most optimistic of us will argue that it doesn't take anything away from the immersion. Do you have a z800 type HMD as the OP has asked to compare, or maybe a DLP ghostless solution?

Not meaning to blow on my own VR e-penis, but I have had 2 HMDs and 2 DLP solutions, all producing perfect images without ghosting... I think you really have to sit down for a few days on one of these, playing games, then try a solution that produces ghosting, such as the iZ3D or CRT, and then say if you notice it or not ;-)

The whole point is that you don’t have to fiddle with the stereo controls every few minutes which again is a big minus for immersion.

OP, having had both solutions, I would definitely recommend the iZ3D over the z800 for overall experience. IF the z800 had better drivers matching iZ3D's, then both might be on par, as even with ghosting, the iZ3D is an excellent 2D monitor at 1680x1050 vs. 800x600 of the z800, which is acceptable but you lose out a lot on the high detail textures which are usually a blur in the distance, giving the impression that there is no anisotropic filtering being used, and of course the high poly count in modern games again seems to be a blur - you can't make out the detail.

In older games such as quake3, UT, painkiller etc which don't have high rez textures, the z800 is unbeatable with the standard nVidia driver and a non 8XXX card, but for modern games with super high detail - and the need to use an 8XXX card to reasonably max the settings ;) the z800 unfortunately just can't compare overall :(

In the end, its not the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread (making machine) as some people might have you believe. There are issues, as with any new technology. You have to sit down and consider what kind of games are important to you, then look at how you will be playing stereo, the ease of use, the practicality of the system, and how often will you use the device, and come to your own conclusion.

Ending on a side note, if nVidia can make a proper driver with post processing/shader support then a projector with stereo support is by far the best solution: 200" screen, life size game environment with a ghostless image in glorious stereo - and it doubles as a family home cinema ;-)

But imo the nVidia stereo driver with such supported features isn't going to happen any time soon... but "zalman" knows all about that *cough* /devil.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':devil:' />
I appreciate your input and welcome to stereo gaming.



But, I must ask you about the ghosting issue. I'm sure that you are well aware of how a stereo image is perceived. With low convergence or separation or with high, a double image, no matter where on the screen will still produce equal ghosting unless the separation is next to zero (where the object producing the ghost image is overlapping) and the convergence is mid way in the screen so the mid point of the scene is at screen depth. Sorry, but these settings are just unplayable.



Low separation means there is virtually no stereo, and mid screen convergence especially for large outdoor scenes will cause too much eye strain, unless of course it is combined with low convergence in the first place... no offence intended but could it be possible that you are experiencing a placebo effect?

The myth that lower depth and convergence settings produce lower ghosting has been around for a long time.



May I ask if you have tried a ghostless solution too to compare the image quality? I agree that the mind learns to filter out the ghosting, but i am sure that not even the most optimistic of us will argue that it doesn't take anything away from the immersion. Do you have a z800 type HMD as the OP has asked to compare, or maybe a DLP ghostless solution?



Not meaning to blow on my own VR e-penis, but I have had 2 HMDs and 2 DLP solutions, all producing perfect images without ghosting... I think you really have to sit down for a few days on one of these, playing games, then try a solution that produces ghosting, such as the iZ3D or CRT, and then say if you notice it or not ;-)



The whole point is that you don’t have to fiddle with the stereo controls every few minutes which again is a big minus for immersion.



OP, having had both solutions, I would definitely recommend the iZ3D over the z800 for overall experience. IF the z800 had better drivers matching iZ3D's, then both might be on par, as even with ghosting, the iZ3D is an excellent 2D monitor at 1680x1050 vs. 800x600 of the z800, which is acceptable but you lose out a lot on the high detail textures which are usually a blur in the distance, giving the impression that there is no anisotropic filtering being used, and of course the high poly count in modern games again seems to be a blur - you can't make out the detail.



In older games such as quake3, UT, painkiller etc which don't have high rez textures, the z800 is unbeatable with the standard nVidia driver and a non 8XXX card, but for modern games with super high detail - and the need to use an 8XXX card to reasonably max the settings ;) the z800 unfortunately just can't compare overall :(



In the end, its not the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread (making machine) as some people might have you believe. There are issues, as with any new technology. You have to sit down and consider what kind of games are important to you, then look at how you will be playing stereo, the ease of use, the practicality of the system, and how often will you use the device, and come to your own conclusion.



Ending on a side note, if nVidia can make a proper driver with post processing/shader support then a projector with stereo support is by far the best solution: 200" screen, life size game environment with a ghostless image in glorious stereo - and it doubles as a family home cinema ;-)



But imo the nVidia stereo driver with such supported features isn't going to happen any time soon... but "zalman" knows all about that *cough* /devil.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':devil:' />

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#4
Posted 11/07/2007 03:05 AM   
How does the iZ3D monitor campares to a Planar setup (if Nvidia had a 3D driver for the new cards)?
Seems pretty awesome (not much darkening in mirror or glasses):
[url="http://www.wow3d.de/3d-stahl-display.html"]http://www.wow3d.de/3d-stahl-display.html[/url]
and no ghosting, color tinting, flicker, brightness problem right? :huh:
Which is best? (price is more or less the same). Nvidia 3D driver lacking though. :(
How does the iZ3D monitor campares to a Planar setup (if Nvidia had a 3D driver for the new cards)?

Seems pretty awesome (not much darkening in mirror or glasses):

http://www.wow3d.de/3d-stahl-display.html

and no ghosting, color tinting, flicker, brightness problem right? :huh:

Which is best? (price is more or less the same). Nvidia 3D driver lacking though. :(

#5
Posted 11/07/2007 02:20 PM   
[quote name='RAGEdemon' date='Nov 6 2007, 07:05 PM']I appreciate your input and welcome to stereo gaming.

But, I must ask you about the ghosting issue. I'm sure that you are well aware of how a stereo image is perceived. With low convergence or separation or with high, a double image, no matter where on the screen will still produce equal ghosting unless the separation is next to zero (where the object producing the ghost image is overlapping) and the convergence is mid way in the screen so the mid point of the scene is at screen depth. Sorry, but these settings are just unplayable.

<trimmed>.

[/quote]


Thanks for the comments, RAGEdemon.

The reason I tend to adjust the convergence/separation (C/S) depending on in/outdoor environment is most definitely placebotic (<- ??). I did not mean to suggest that doing C/S adjustment reduced the ghosting, only that it reduced my perception of the ghosting.

I find that when I'm in an outdoor environment (like those found in Half Life 2), if I set the convergence such that it's just slightly inside the plane of the monitor, then reduce the separation so that very distant and thin objects (like tower columns/tree trunks) look 'right', then my overall ghosting [i]perception[/i] is greatly reduced. And if I'm in a vehicle (e.g. a buggy), then the frame of the vehicle very slightly 'pops out', thus greatly enhancing the perceived 3D-ness of the entire scene.

When indoors, I set convergence to be at the plane of the monitor, then adjust the separation up to the point of stereo 'break' (I made this description up just now), then bring it back to several levels less.

These techniques are what I've found work best for my brain. Everyone else's mileage will vary.

I have not tried any of the ghostless solutions you mentioned, but I have no doubt I'd like them better. Question is, how much do they cost? I got my 22" iZ3D during a promotion, and paid $750. Perhaps I chose the wrong solution, but it sure beats the 'HeadPlay' HMD I tried just before ordering the iZ3D. That unit was a brain-busting eye-strainer (again, for my brain).
[quote name='RAGEdemon' date='Nov 6 2007, 07:05 PM']I appreciate your input and welcome to stereo gaming.



But, I must ask you about the ghosting issue. I'm sure that you are well aware of how a stereo image is perceived. With low convergence or separation or with high, a double image, no matter where on the screen will still produce equal ghosting unless the separation is next to zero (where the object producing the ghost image is overlapping) and the convergence is mid way in the screen so the mid point of the scene is at screen depth. Sorry, but these settings are just unplayable.



<trimmed>.









Thanks for the comments, RAGEdemon.



The reason I tend to adjust the convergence/separation (C/S) depending on in/outdoor environment is most definitely placebotic (<- ??). I did not mean to suggest that doing C/S adjustment reduced the ghosting, only that it reduced my perception of the ghosting.



I find that when I'm in an outdoor environment (like those found in Half Life 2), if I set the convergence such that it's just slightly inside the plane of the monitor, then reduce the separation so that very distant and thin objects (like tower columns/tree trunks) look 'right', then my overall ghosting perception is greatly reduced. And if I'm in a vehicle (e.g. a buggy), then the frame of the vehicle very slightly 'pops out', thus greatly enhancing the perceived 3D-ness of the entire scene.



When indoors, I set convergence to be at the plane of the monitor, then adjust the separation up to the point of stereo 'break' (I made this description up just now), then bring it back to several levels less.



These techniques are what I've found work best for my brain. Everyone else's mileage will vary.



I have not tried any of the ghostless solutions you mentioned, but I have no doubt I'd like them better. Question is, how much do they cost? I got my 22" iZ3D during a promotion, and paid $750. Perhaps I chose the wrong solution, but it sure beats the 'HeadPlay' HMD I tried just before ordering the iZ3D. That unit was a brain-busting eye-strainer (again, for my brain).

#6
Posted 11/07/2007 05:10 PM   
RAGEdemon: do you have the technical details on what causes the ghosting?

Tx.
RAGEdemon: do you have the technical details on what causes the ghosting?



Tx.

#7
Posted 11/07/2007 05:23 PM   
[quote name='RAGEdemon' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:05 PM']May I ask if you have tried a ghostless solution too to compare the image quality? I agree that the mind learns to filter out the ghosting, but i am sure that not even the most optimistic of us will argue that it doesn't take anything away from the immersion. Do you have a z800 type HMD as the OP has asked to compare, or maybe a DLP ghostless solution?

Not meaning to blow on my own VR e-penis, but I have had 2 HMDs and 2 DLP solutions, all producing perfect images without ghosting... I think you really have to sit down for a few days on one of these, playing games, then try a solution that produces ghosting, such as the iZ3D or CRT, and then say if you notice it or not ;-)

OP, having had both solutions, I would definitely recommend the iZ3D over the z800 for overall experience. IF the z800 had better drivers matching iZ3D's, then both might be on par, as even with ghosting, the iZ3D is an excellent 2D monitor at 1680x1050 vs. 800x600 of the z800, which is acceptable but you lose out a lot on the high detail textures which are usually a blur in the distance, giving the impression that there is no anisotropic filtering being used, and of course the high poly count in modern games again seems to be a blur - you can't make out the detail.

In older games such as quake3, UT, painkiller etc which don't have high rez textures, the z800 is unbeatable with the standard nVidia driver and a non 8XXX card, but for modern games with super high detail - and the need to use an 8XXX card to reasonably max the settings ;) the z800 unfortunately just can't compare overall :(

In the end, its not the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread (making machine) as some people might have you believe. There are issues, as with any new technology. You have to sit down and consider what kind of games are important to you, then look at how you will be playing stereo, the ease of use, the practicality of the system, and how often will you use the device, and come to your own conclusion.

Ending on a side note, if nVidia can make a proper driver with post processing/shader support then a projector with stereo support is by far the best solution: 200" screen, life size game environment with a ghostless image in glorious stereo - and it doubles as a family home cinema ;-)

[right][snapback]276005[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Hey RAGEDemon

I was wondering if a DLP(projection setup?) displays without any ghosting? If I wanted to stick to a strict budget, and try out a nice 3D projection setup about how much are we talking total if I can paint a wall vs buying a projection screen? Consider me part of the minority, but outside of the theater, 16:9 or widescreen format does little for me, and I'm not sure all games would be supported on the 22" iZ3D. I may rent a dvd at blockbuster, and when I watch it I see 2 black bars at the top and bottom.. yeah I'm seeing extra movie on the sides that may be trimmed in a 4:3 ratio but I'm just wondering if the iZ3D driver supports the 16:9 aspect ratio well with many older games plus all the new ones. Bioshock doesn't seem to have any widescreen patch available(or any patch for that matter ATM.) And finally... how is stereo 3D on a 100" screen? I can only imagine it is fantastic if there is no ghosting!

Thank you all for your contributions thus far! I have until Thursday to get the 22" iZ3D at the $750 price since I tried the 17" and had trouble with it earlier in the year and David at Neurok remembered me. I'd only be using a 22" iZ3D or projection setup for gaming, and gaming alone. I just want an alternative to using the z800.
[quote name='RAGEdemon' date='Nov 6 2007, 11:05 PM']May I ask if you have tried a ghostless solution too to compare the image quality? I agree that the mind learns to filter out the ghosting, but i am sure that not even the most optimistic of us will argue that it doesn't take anything away from the immersion. Do you have a z800 type HMD as the OP has asked to compare, or maybe a DLP ghostless solution?



Not meaning to blow on my own VR e-penis, but I have had 2 HMDs and 2 DLP solutions, all producing perfect images without ghosting... I think you really have to sit down for a few days on one of these, playing games, then try a solution that produces ghosting, such as the iZ3D or CRT, and then say if you notice it or not ;-)



OP, having had both solutions, I would definitely recommend the iZ3D over the z800 for overall experience. IF the z800 had better drivers matching iZ3D's, then both might be on par, as even with ghosting, the iZ3D is an excellent 2D monitor at 1680x1050 vs. 800x600 of the z800, which is acceptable but you lose out a lot on the high detail textures which are usually a blur in the distance, giving the impression that there is no anisotropic filtering being used, and of course the high poly count in modern games again seems to be a blur - you can't make out the detail.



In older games such as quake3, UT, painkiller etc which don't have high rez textures, the z800 is unbeatable with the standard nVidia driver and a non 8XXX card, but for modern games with super high detail - and the need to use an 8XXX card to reasonably max the settings ;) the z800 unfortunately just can't compare overall :(



In the end, its not the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread (making machine) as some people might have you believe. There are issues, as with any new technology. You have to sit down and consider what kind of games are important to you, then look at how you will be playing stereo, the ease of use, the practicality of the system, and how often will you use the device, and come to your own conclusion.



Ending on a side note, if nVidia can make a proper driver with post processing/shader support then a projector with stereo support is by far the best solution: 200" screen, life size game environment with a ghostless image in glorious stereo - and it doubles as a family home cinema ;-)



[snapback]276005[/snapback]








Hey RAGEDemon



I was wondering if a DLP(projection setup?) displays without any ghosting? If I wanted to stick to a strict budget, and try out a nice 3D projection setup about how much are we talking total if I can paint a wall vs buying a projection screen? Consider me part of the minority, but outside of the theater, 16:9 or widescreen format does little for me, and I'm not sure all games would be supported on the 22" iZ3D. I may rent a dvd at blockbuster, and when I watch it I see 2 black bars at the top and bottom.. yeah I'm seeing extra movie on the sides that may be trimmed in a 4:3 ratio but I'm just wondering if the iZ3D driver supports the 16:9 aspect ratio well with many older games plus all the new ones. Bioshock doesn't seem to have any widescreen patch available(or any patch for that matter ATM.) And finally... how is stereo 3D on a 100" screen? I can only imagine it is fantastic if there is no ghosting!



Thank you all for your contributions thus far! I have until Thursday to get the 22" iZ3D at the $750 price since I tried the 17" and had trouble with it earlier in the year and David at Neurok remembered me. I'd only be using a 22" iZ3D or projection setup for gaming, and gaming alone. I just want an alternative to using the z800.

#8
Posted 11/07/2007 06:13 PM   
limeywarts,

Hope you don't mind my butting in with my observations regarding 16:9 gameplay on the iZ3D. First off, it's actually 16:10, if that matters to you. And I've played Half Life 2, Far Cry, Bioshock, and Crysis Demo on my monitor, with all of 'em set to the native resolution of the monitor: 1680x1050. All games render fine at that rez, and I'm pretty sure that no 'stretching' is going on by either the game or the monitor. Squares are squares, and circles are circles, if you know what I mean. But I could be wrong.

For Bioshock and Crysis demo, you're gonna need one helluva monster video card to get playable framerates at the 16:10 rez, and from my experience, the native rez looks FAR better than anything else (kinda goes without saying). I'm running a GeForce 7900GS, and even at 800x600, 'Low' settings, Bioshock and Crysis crawl along at less than 10fps.

Note also that if you own an 8 series card from nVidia, you won't be able to play Bioshock or Crysis in stereo using a DX10-based PC. The stereo driver provided by iZ3D does not support DX10 (yet), and nVidia hasn't put out a usable DX10 driver either.

HL2 and Far Cry, OTOH, are spectacular at 1680x1050.

My 2c.
limeywarts,



Hope you don't mind my butting in with my observations regarding 16:9 gameplay on the iZ3D. First off, it's actually 16:10, if that matters to you. And I've played Half Life 2, Far Cry, Bioshock, and Crysis Demo on my monitor, with all of 'em set to the native resolution of the monitor: 1680x1050. All games render fine at that rez, and I'm pretty sure that no 'stretching' is going on by either the game or the monitor. Squares are squares, and circles are circles, if you know what I mean. But I could be wrong.



For Bioshock and Crysis demo, you're gonna need one helluva monster video card to get playable framerates at the 16:10 rez, and from my experience, the native rez looks FAR better than anything else (kinda goes without saying). I'm running a GeForce 7900GS, and even at 800x600, 'Low' settings, Bioshock and Crysis crawl along at less than 10fps.



Note also that if you own an 8 series card from nVidia, you won't be able to play Bioshock or Crysis in stereo using a DX10-based PC. The stereo driver provided by iZ3D does not support DX10 (yet), and nVidia hasn't put out a usable DX10 driver either.



HL2 and Far Cry, OTOH, are spectacular at 1680x1050.



My 2c.

#9
Posted 11/07/2007 07:26 PM   
[quote name='limeywarts' date='Nov 7 2007, 01:13 PM']Hey RAGEDemon

I was wondering if a DLP(projection setup?) displays without any ghosting? If I wanted to stick to a strict budget, and try out a nice 3D projection setup about how much are we talking total if I can paint a wall vs buying a projection screen? [right][snapback]276278[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Go to Ebay or a search engine and find the Sharp XR10X DLP projectors. The refurbished ones go for $450 to $600. Not all DLP projectors perform equally with stereo 3d and the Sharp has gotten the best marks. Using just a single projector at 85Hz @ 1024X768 I get no ghosting and no noticeable flicker in game. There is also no noticeable color difference between left and right eye. It is 2000 lumens which is more than enough brightness.

Read this:

[url="http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf"]http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf[/url]


I project onto a white painted surface that is 60 inch diag (4 ft wide by 3 foot tall) that is 5 feet in front of me for a perfect 45 degree Field Of View. The projector is mounted upside down and about 2 feet above and behind me.

Driving games like R-Factor and GT Legends are amazing! You can get free demo's for both. The steering wheel and rear view mirrors pop out as if you are sitting in a real car. The windshield glass is even in perfect 3d. If I am demonstrating it to someone that has never seen 3d, I'll run the RollerCoaster Tycoon3 demo and make them motion sick.

The one thing to be awar of with DLP projectors is the image is delayed 1 frame which means your left and right eyes need to be reversed. For wireless shutter glasses you need to get a device from here:

[url="http://3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm"]http://3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm[/url]

For wired glasses I have heard you need to create something that reverses pins 1 and 2 (tip and middle) of the cable but I haven't tried that yet. I actually just wear my wired glasses upside down (sounds bad but I have played hours like this).

Games that work well with TrackIR generally work well in 3d. If you go to their site they have links to free demos of games of all types. Here is a link:

[url="http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enhanced-games/enhanced-games-all.html"]http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enh...-games-all.html[/url]

I initially bought 2 of these DLP projectors and a silver screen to try to do a 2 projector set up with polarizers. No matter how expensive the glasses and polarizers were I could never get rid of all the ghosting and found a single projector at 85hz was by far the best solution for me. I use the 2nd projector in my living room for watching HD TV and movies. It is a great projector for that as well even though it isn't 16:9 native. CSI and ER in HD are incredible.


Hope this helps!
[quote name='limeywarts' date='Nov 7 2007, 01:13 PM']Hey RAGEDemon



I was wondering if a DLP(projection setup?) displays without any ghosting? If I wanted to stick to a strict budget, and try out a nice 3D projection setup about how much are we talking total if I can paint a wall vs buying a projection screen?
[snapback]276278[/snapback]






Go to Ebay or a search engine and find the Sharp XR10X DLP projectors. The refurbished ones go for $450 to $600. Not all DLP projectors perform equally with stereo 3d and the Sharp has gotten the best marks. Using just a single projector at 85Hz @ 1024X768 I get no ghosting and no noticeable flicker in game. There is also no noticeable color difference between left and right eye. It is 2000 lumens which is more than enough brightness.



Read this:



http://www.cmst.curtin.edu.au/publicat/2007-05.pdf





I project onto a white painted surface that is 60 inch diag (4 ft wide by 3 foot tall) that is 5 feet in front of me for a perfect 45 degree Field Of View. The projector is mounted upside down and about 2 feet above and behind me.



Driving games like R-Factor and GT Legends are amazing! You can get free demo's for both. The steering wheel and rear view mirrors pop out as if you are sitting in a real car. The windshield glass is even in perfect 3d. If I am demonstrating it to someone that has never seen 3d, I'll run the RollerCoaster Tycoon3 demo and make them motion sick.



The one thing to be awar of with DLP projectors is the image is delayed 1 frame which means your left and right eyes need to be reversed. For wireless shutter glasses you need to get a device from here:



http://3dflightsim.com/parallax.htm



For wired glasses I have heard you need to create something that reverses pins 1 and 2 (tip and middle) of the cable but I haven't tried that yet. I actually just wear my wired glasses upside down (sounds bad but I have played hours like this).



Games that work well with TrackIR generally work well in 3d. If you go to their site they have links to free demos of games of all types. Here is a link:



http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enh...-games-all.html



I initially bought 2 of these DLP projectors and a silver screen to try to do a 2 projector set up with polarizers. No matter how expensive the glasses and polarizers were I could never get rid of all the ghosting and found a single projector at 85hz was by far the best solution for me. I use the 2nd projector in my living room for watching HD TV and movies. It is a great projector for that as well even though it isn't 16:9 native. CSI and ER in HD are incredible.





Hope this helps!

#10
Posted 11/07/2007 10:29 PM   
Ok comparison: (Another iz3d 22" owner here :) )

Ok, The iz3d does ghost a bit but not as much as my crt/e-dim shutterglasses setup i had before. It's not comparable with a dual polarized rig though. Regarding a planar setup that surely depends on how much ghosting you have now though. You cannot expect it to be totally ghosting free though. This is the only minus there is with the iz3d.

Regarding either a passive polarized rig or a planar setup you're out of luck if nvidia drops support. There has been signs that point at another direction though (newer betas from nvidia at the mtbs3d.com don't knock themself out anymore when running on dual core and some other small things seems to have been done with the drivers too).
I do have an iz3d and plays about 60% of my gaming hours on it. The other 40% on my passive beamer rig when i want the real kick! (unfortunately with older games since iz3d-drivers only support the iz3d :( ).

As said earlier iz3d frequently updates their drivers and for the first time my 8800GTX can do PROPER stereo. They do support postprocessing and as a preview we've also seen that crosshair support is on it's way.

Dlp-beamers and shutterglasses is not really my business but the most important thing here is that the dlp must have enough refreshrate to deliver somewhat flickerfree reproduction. It also must have relatively high output of lumen since you loose quite a bit of the light because of the shutters.

If you were thinking of a passive polarized rig... that's another more expensier story but there i can help you out. :D

cheers
Ok comparison: (Another iz3d 22" owner here :) )



Ok, The iz3d does ghost a bit but not as much as my crt/e-dim shutterglasses setup i had before. It's not comparable with a dual polarized rig though. Regarding a planar setup that surely depends on how much ghosting you have now though. You cannot expect it to be totally ghosting free though. This is the only minus there is with the iz3d.



Regarding either a passive polarized rig or a planar setup you're out of luck if nvidia drops support. There has been signs that point at another direction though (newer betas from nvidia at the mtbs3d.com don't knock themself out anymore when running on dual core and some other small things seems to have been done with the drivers too).

I do have an iz3d and plays about 60% of my gaming hours on it. The other 40% on my passive beamer rig when i want the real kick! (unfortunately with older games since iz3d-drivers only support the iz3d :( ).



As said earlier iz3d frequently updates their drivers and for the first time my 8800GTX can do PROPER stereo. They do support postprocessing and as a preview we've also seen that crosshair support is on it's way.



Dlp-beamers and shutterglasses is not really my business but the most important thing here is that the dlp must have enough refreshrate to deliver somewhat flickerfree reproduction. It also must have relatively high output of lumen since you loose quite a bit of the light because of the shutters.



If you were thinking of a passive polarized rig... that's another more expensier story but there i can help you out. :D



cheers

Image

Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe

Cpu: C2D E6600

Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX

3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#11
Posted 11/07/2007 10:41 PM   
Hello,

I do also own a IZ3D monitor along with other 3D viewing methods:
- Zalman 3D monitor (preproduction sample)
- dual projection with 2 DLP beamers, silverscreen 2m wide using linear polarisation filter/glasses

To compare the IZ3D monitor and find out how good its 3D quality is, I placed the IZ3D and the Zalman monitor side-by-side and made some pictures with my stereo camera (dual P200 rig one mounted upside-down) while adding glasses in front of the camera so each camera views exactly what you would see wearing glasses.

Since changing divergence (using the drivers functions) while playing games is one method to minimize ghosting this does not work displaying pictures or video - so one needs to watch stereopictures the way the author mounted these pictures. Many pictures have high contrast areas which cause lots of ghosting depending on which viewing method you use.

IZ3D does not provide a picture viewer so there are only 2 ways to view stereoscopic pictures on the IZ3D monitor:
- using any app which is able to use the Nvidia drivers like StereoPhotoMaker
- using the program 'MyAlbum' by Pierre Meindre which has a builtin algorithm to show pictures on a IZ3D monitor.
Well there is also another way to do this but not in real time: you calculate front/back view separately and place these pictures side-by-side.

Here are the results of this test:
[url="http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/3d_monitor_test.zip"]http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/3d_monitor_test.zip[/url]
inside this zip file (24 MB large) you'll find the original non-edited left and right view taken with the stereocamara. The filename describes which program was used to display the picture (nvidia = Nvidia stereo driver, myalbum = internal algo of MyAlbum)
There is also a picture included named PM*.* which was a precalculated IZ3D picture by the Author of MyAlbum - since he has no IZ3D monitor he swaped left/right view so I needed to swap the glasses to shoot this picture correct.

To be able to compare the IZ3D monitor I included the views taken from the Zalamn monitor.

I won't comment the results now so please download these pictures and judge yourself...

greetings
Werner
Hello,



I do also own a IZ3D monitor along with other 3D viewing methods:

- Zalman 3D monitor (preproduction sample)

- dual projection with 2 DLP beamers, silverscreen 2m wide using linear polarisation filter/glasses



To compare the IZ3D monitor and find out how good its 3D quality is, I placed the IZ3D and the Zalman monitor side-by-side and made some pictures with my stereo camera (dual P200 rig one mounted upside-down) while adding glasses in front of the camera so each camera views exactly what you would see wearing glasses.



Since changing divergence (using the drivers functions) while playing games is one method to minimize ghosting this does not work displaying pictures or video - so one needs to watch stereopictures the way the author mounted these pictures. Many pictures have high contrast areas which cause lots of ghosting depending on which viewing method you use.



IZ3D does not provide a picture viewer so there are only 2 ways to view stereoscopic pictures on the IZ3D monitor:

- using any app which is able to use the Nvidia drivers like StereoPhotoMaker

- using the program 'MyAlbum' by Pierre Meindre which has a builtin algorithm to show pictures on a IZ3D monitor.

Well there is also another way to do this but not in real time: you calculate front/back view separately and place these pictures side-by-side.



Here are the results of this test:

http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/3d_monitor_test.zip

inside this zip file (24 MB large) you'll find the original non-edited left and right view taken with the stereocamara. The filename describes which program was used to display the picture (nvidia = Nvidia stereo driver, myalbum = internal algo of MyAlbum)

There is also a picture included named PM*.* which was a precalculated IZ3D picture by the Author of MyAlbum - since he has no IZ3D monitor he swaped left/right view so I needed to swap the glasses to shoot this picture correct.



To be able to compare the IZ3D monitor I included the views taken from the Zalamn monitor.



I won't comment the results now so please download these pictures and judge yourself...



greetings

Werner

#12
Posted 11/08/2007 02:17 PM   
hi!

2 points...

1) iz3d provides a image viewer.. you can use the "iz3d media player" and load the images into it.. (rename them from jps to jpg)


2) i have a iz3d monitor too.. try to tilt the monitor backwards a little bit (5/10°) you will notice a GREAT lose of ghosting.


i saw your pictures.. the iz3d monitor should be the one with the blue led, (not easy to see the casing in the pics).. in my opinion the iz3d has a bit more ghosting than the zalman, but the image quality is much better. on the zalman you see the tipical interlaced lines you also see on a interlaced mpeg file.... tilting the monitor backwards a bit you can reach the same amount of ghosting the salman has.

anyway, i liked your approach to this, with testing, and posting images.. even if i do not at all agree with the result.. :)

youre welcome to join mtbs3d.com, we are focussed on 3d, and this kind of comparisons.

bye

sharky
hi!



2 points...



1) iz3d provides a image viewer.. you can use the "iz3d media player" and load the images into it.. (rename them from jps to jpg)





2) i have a iz3d monitor too.. try to tilt the monitor backwards a little bit (5/10°) you will notice a GREAT lose of ghosting.





i saw your pictures.. the iz3d monitor should be the one with the blue led, (not easy to see the casing in the pics).. in my opinion the iz3d has a bit more ghosting than the zalman, but the image quality is much better. on the zalman you see the tipical interlaced lines you also see on a interlaced mpeg file.... tilting the monitor backwards a bit you can reach the same amount of ghosting the salman has.



anyway, i liked your approach to this, with testing, and posting images.. even if i do not at all agree with the result.. :)



youre welcome to join mtbs3d.com, we are focussed on 3d, and this kind of comparisons.



bye



sharky

#13
Posted 11/08/2007 03:18 PM   
[quote name='sharkyenergy' date='Nov 8 2007, 05:18 PM']
1) iz3d provides a image viewer.. you can use the "iz3d media player" and load the images into it.. (rename them from jps to jpg)[/quote]

well I tried to open some JPS files which failed - renamed to JPG - failed as well - loading a standard JPG file works - it seems that Mediaplayer is not able to handle all JPS/JPG files. I resized the original car picture to 1400x1050 - picture loads but does not show it in 3D - resized to 1024x768 - now Mplayer loads and shows this picture correct - strange - isn't it ? Well I don't think Mplayer is a good tool to display stereocopic pictures - the 768 picture showed the same problems with Mplayer observed with Nvidia driver or MyAlbum.

Hey, why using a videoplayer to display pictures? Do you always take a truck driving 1/2 mile to get a coke? (just a joke - in german we say: 'Mit Kanonen auf Spatzen schiessen')

[quote]2) i have a iz3d monitor too.. try to tilt the monitor backwards a little bit (5/10°) you will notice a GREAT lose of ghosting.[/quote]

I tried this - no way to get rid of ghosting - when tilting the monitor or changing the viewers position up/down (or right/left) from the center of the screen the picture even gets worser!


[quote] in my opinion the iz3d has a bit more ghosting than the zalman,[/quote]
well not only 'a bit more' - when comparing my pictures you will not see any ghosting on the Zalman - although the Zalman is not ghostfree - at high contrasts you still see little ghosting


[quote] but the image quality is much better.[/quote]

nope - there is not only ghosting which makes the IZ3D worser - here are some other problems:
- in 2D and 3D mode the IZ3D is not 100% sharp and gets worser when changing the viewers position from the center of the screen (remember I have 2 different 22" monitors side-by-side!)
- in 3D: changing the viewers position ends up in different tinting
- in 3D: left view is tinted brown, right view a little bit blue compare left/right view of the same picture - especially on bright areas (white or light blue parts (e.g sky) of an image!
- check the red parts of the car image - you'll see some arifacts which are not present in the Zalman version or in the original picture

[quote] on the zalman you see the tipical interlaced lines you also see on a interlaced mpeg file....[/quote]

correct you see them because these pictures were taken with a 7.2m pixel camera - when viewing this from 2-3 feet you won't notice the interlace since our eyes do not resolve single lines

[quote] even if i do not at all agree with the result.. :) [/quote]
why not doing own test in same way I did it ? I uploaded the original car pictures in three versions - the original version, a 1400x1050 version and a 1024x768 version. Download it from (2MB):
[url="http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/car_original.zip"]http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/car_original.zip[/url]

[quote]youre welcome to join mtbs3d.com, we are focussed on 3d, and this kind of comparisons.[/quote]

I am already member but did not post by now.

greetings
Werner
[quote name='sharkyenergy' date='Nov 8 2007, 05:18 PM']

1) iz3d provides a image viewer.. you can use the "iz3d media player" and load the images into it.. (rename them from jps to jpg)



well I tried to open some JPS files which failed - renamed to JPG - failed as well - loading a standard JPG file works - it seems that Mediaplayer is not able to handle all JPS/JPG files. I resized the original car picture to 1400x1050 - picture loads but does not show it in 3D - resized to 1024x768 - now Mplayer loads and shows this picture correct - strange - isn't it ? Well I don't think Mplayer is a good tool to display stereocopic pictures - the 768 picture showed the same problems with Mplayer observed with Nvidia driver or MyAlbum.



Hey, why using a videoplayer to display pictures? Do you always take a truck driving 1/2 mile to get a coke? (just a joke - in german we say: 'Mit Kanonen auf Spatzen schiessen')



2) i have a iz3d monitor too.. try to tilt the monitor backwards a little bit (5/10°) you will notice a GREAT lose of ghosting.




I tried this - no way to get rid of ghosting - when tilting the monitor or changing the viewers position up/down (or right/left) from the center of the screen the picture even gets worser!





in my opinion the iz3d has a bit more ghosting than the zalman,


well not only 'a bit more' - when comparing my pictures you will not see any ghosting on the Zalman - although the Zalman is not ghostfree - at high contrasts you still see little ghosting





but the image quality is much better.




nope - there is not only ghosting which makes the IZ3D worser - here are some other problems:

- in 2D and 3D mode the IZ3D is not 100% sharp and gets worser when changing the viewers position from the center of the screen (remember I have 2 different 22" monitors side-by-side!)

- in 3D: changing the viewers position ends up in different tinting

- in 3D: left view is tinted brown, right view a little bit blue compare left/right view of the same picture - especially on bright areas (white or light blue parts (e.g sky) of an image!

- check the red parts of the car image - you'll see some arifacts which are not present in the Zalman version or in the original picture



on the zalman you see the tipical interlaced lines you also see on a interlaced mpeg file....




correct you see them because these pictures were taken with a 7.2m pixel camera - when viewing this from 2-3 feet you won't notice the interlace since our eyes do not resolve single lines



even if i do not at all agree with the result.. :)


why not doing own test in same way I did it ? I uploaded the original car pictures in three versions - the original version, a 1400x1050 version and a 1024x768 version. Download it from (2MB):

http://www.3d-hdv.net/forum/photo-3d/car_original.zip



youre welcome to join mtbs3d.com, we are focussed on 3d, and this kind of comparisons.




I am already member but did not post by now.



greetings

Werner

#14
Posted 11/08/2007 05:53 PM   
Interesting topic.
Here's what car_original_768.jps looks like with
eDim shutterglasses and a CRT monitor:
[attachment=4683:attachment]
(right eye view through the glasses)
Interesting topic.

Here's what car_original_768.jps looks like with

eDim shutterglasses and a CRT monitor:

[attachment=4683:attachment]

(right eye view through the glasses)

#15
Posted 11/08/2007 09:02 PM   
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