Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
This fix is great and makes the game practically 3d ready. The water admittedly isn't as nice looking, but you get used to the murky water quickly - and of course murky water is infinitely better than wrongly rendered water.
There is still an issue with the water in all dungeons when it is only very shallow. This is actually probably the most affected water in the game as it looks 6ft deep even thoughts only 6cm deep. Really is hard to ignore since your closed in with it.
This fix is great and makes the game practically 3d ready. The water admittedly isn't as nice looking, but you get used to the murky water quickly - and of course murky water is infinitely better than wrongly rendered water.
There is still an issue with the water in all dungeons when it is only very shallow. This is actually probably the most affected water in the game as it looks 6ft deep even thoughts only 6cm deep. Really is hard to ignore since your closed in with it.
[quote name='chiz' date='29 December 2011 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1325143195' post='1348538']
Well those are probably two of the worst examples as both of those studios are quite possibly the biggest luddites in the industry. Never mind 3D, their graphics and game engines are generally way behind the times, yet they still happen to do 3D well by accident on occasion.
Dragon Age 1/2 are fine in 3D, only suffer the same problem as myriad others with 2D cursor, name plates etc. Same can be said for TOR. Bethesda doesn't do anything specific to support 3D, but the simple ability to toggle off their crosshair allows a good experience by using the 3D laser sight. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had issues similar to most older UE3 titles, but there's reason for optimism with ME3 if it uses a UE3 build after 3D Vision support was officially supported. Some of the best 3D Vision titles released in recent months have been built on UE3.
Now lets look at some of the signs indicating 3D stereo is the future with significant uptake:
[list]
[*]CryEngine 3 has native 3D stereo support, Crytek's own 2D+depth approach. Already implemented on both PC and consoles, natively.
[*]Battlefield 3 and all future Frost Bite 2 Engine games will support native stereo rendering. EA is heavily leveraging FB2 for all EA-developed titles.
[*]Unreal Engine 3, the premier licensed engine of the DX9/10 era on both the consoles and the PC now fully supports 3D Vision natively in its SDK.
[*]Games with in-game controls or native 3D stereo implementations are ever-increasing, like Starcraft 2, Avatar the game, Trine 1/2. Today I stumbled upon Dungeon Siege III with native 3D settings.
[*]Numerous titles that made the necessary changes to qualify for 3D Vision Ready status (all 3D Vision Ready games).
[*]Major MMOs that either have good 3D support natively or patch in support after the fact including WoW, Rift, Aion, FFXIV, LOTRO, TOR.
[*][b]Major AAA releases on the consoles[/b] with 3D stereo support, including Gears of War 3, Halo, Uncharted 3, Gran Turismo 5, Killzone 3, Batman Arkham City.
[/list]
The last bullet is the key imo. Major console releases have the budget to make 3D stereo integration seamless and once consumers get a taste of it, they're going to want more of it, the same way its happened in the PC market. Of course the difference is, the PC gaming community by itself isn't enough to drive the demand for better 3D support and content, but the console market clearly is.
Its just a matter of a major dev studio or publisher committing to 3D once, seeing the benefits, and then perpetuating best practices to support 3D in all of their future titles. Despite some of Todd Howard's comments on 3D in the past, I fully expect Elder Scrolls VI to be in 3D as a major selling point of the game....not so much for the sake of the PC, but for the consoles.
I wouldn't want any software or video processor-based auto-conversion, those look terrible and introduce even more input lag. I'd want something similar to DDD's that intercepts draw calls, estimates depth values, then injects new W values to correct depth in 3D as needed. But again, that'd be redundant since I already have that option while using 3D Vision as my primary solution, best of both worlds really, and only using Nvidia's 3D ecosystem.
But if you wanted this feature badly enough you could use it with any 3DTV Play HDTV with 2D to 3D conversion.
[/quote]
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
[quote name='chiz' date='29 December 2011 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1325143195' post='1348538']
Well those are probably two of the worst examples as both of those studios are quite possibly the biggest luddites in the industry. Never mind 3D, their graphics and game engines are generally way behind the times, yet they still happen to do 3D well by accident on occasion.
Dragon Age 1/2 are fine in 3D, only suffer the same problem as myriad others with 2D cursor, name plates etc. Same can be said for TOR. Bethesda doesn't do anything specific to support 3D, but the simple ability to toggle off their crosshair allows a good experience by using the 3D laser sight. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had issues similar to most older UE3 titles, but there's reason for optimism with ME3 if it uses a UE3 build after 3D Vision support was officially supported. Some of the best 3D Vision titles released in recent months have been built on UE3.
Now lets look at some of the signs indicating 3D stereo is the future with significant uptake:
CryEngine 3 has native 3D stereo support, Crytek's own 2D+depth approach. Already implemented on both PC and consoles, natively.
Battlefield 3 and all future Frost Bite 2 Engine games will support native stereo rendering. EA is heavily leveraging FB2 for all EA-developed titles.
Unreal Engine 3, the premier licensed engine of the DX9/10 era on both the consoles and the PC now fully supports 3D Vision natively in its SDK.
Games with in-game controls or native 3D stereo implementations are ever-increasing, like Starcraft 2, Avatar the game, Trine 1/2. Today I stumbled upon Dungeon Siege III with native 3D settings.
Numerous titles that made the necessary changes to qualify for 3D Vision Ready status (all 3D Vision Ready games).
Major MMOs that either have good 3D support natively or patch in support after the fact including WoW, Rift, Aion, FFXIV, LOTRO, TOR.
Major AAA releases on the consoles with 3D stereo support, including Gears of War 3, Halo, Uncharted 3, Gran Turismo 5, Killzone 3, Batman Arkham City.
The last bullet is the key imo. Major console releases have the budget to make 3D stereo integration seamless and once consumers get a taste of it, they're going to want more of it, the same way its happened in the PC market. Of course the difference is, the PC gaming community by itself isn't enough to drive the demand for better 3D support and content, but the console market clearly is.
Its just a matter of a major dev studio or publisher committing to 3D once, seeing the benefits, and then perpetuating best practices to support 3D in all of their future titles. Despite some of Todd Howard's comments on 3D in the past, I fully expect Elder Scrolls VI to be in 3D as a major selling point of the game....not so much for the sake of the PC, but for the consoles.
I wouldn't want any software or video processor-based auto-conversion, those look terrible and introduce even more input lag. I'd want something similar to DDD's that intercepts draw calls, estimates depth values, then injects new W values to correct depth in 3D as needed. But again, that'd be redundant since I already have that option while using 3D Vision as my primary solution, best of both worlds really, and only using Nvidia's 3D ecosystem.
But if you wanted this feature badly enough you could use it with any 3DTV Play HDTV with 2D to 3D conversion.
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
[quote name='oblivioner' date='29 December 2011 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1325152254' post='1348570']
Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
[/quote]
Thanks! I agree 2011 has been a great year for 3D gaming and its only going to get better imo. I put together a list of 2011 games that worked well in 3D here, and most of the big name titles on the PC were well supported: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=218872&view=findpost&p=1344934
I also agree the next-gen consoles and HDTV industry are ultimately going to be the driving factor for 3D adoption, but even on that front the buzz has gone from really negative/pessimistic to increasingly enthusiastic. While Nvidia won't be able to drive mainstream 3D adoption by themselves, they've done a great job so far and will only benefit from additional help from the console/movie industries.
[quote name='Osobari' date='29 December 2011 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1325177059' post='1348671']
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
[/quote]
Well, it goes both ways too. A lot of times, dev support or native implementation actually means less wiggle and tweak room for 3D as they look to provide a homogenized form of 3D that's safe for mass consumption. The worst case is they limit separation to really low values and lock convergence. Sometimes they allow minimal convergence options or only allow selective adjustment of certain objects within the scene (BF3 and Deus Ex for example). The best case is a game like Trine 2 that allows a lot of adjustment but tweaks convergence at various depths to make viewing comfortable and focused at any setting.
There's certainly areas Nvidia could improve its implementation but I think the only ones they're considering are minor, ease-of-use features like multiple profile presets and hotkeys. Overall though I think the workaround issue is overstated, mainly because the number of games that have effective workarounds is minimal. You either have a game that has 3D visuals that make it worth playing in 3D, or not. In the games that have great 3D visuals, various limititions or problems like 2D icons/cursors or incorrect depth for some objects/effects are more easily overlooked. Just really depends on the severity of the problem and how integral they are to gameplay.
[quote name='oblivioner' date='29 December 2011 - 04:50 AM' timestamp='1325152254' post='1348570']
Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
Thanks! I agree 2011 has been a great year for 3D gaming and its only going to get better imo. I put together a list of 2011 games that worked well in 3D here, and most of the big name titles on the PC were well supported: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=218872&view=findpost&p=1344934
I also agree the next-gen consoles and HDTV industry are ultimately going to be the driving factor for 3D adoption, but even on that front the buzz has gone from really negative/pessimistic to increasingly enthusiastic. While Nvidia won't be able to drive mainstream 3D adoption by themselves, they've done a great job so far and will only benefit from additional help from the console/movie industries.
[quote name='Osobari' date='29 December 2011 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1325177059' post='1348671']
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
Well, it goes both ways too. A lot of times, dev support or native implementation actually means less wiggle and tweak room for 3D as they look to provide a homogenized form of 3D that's safe for mass consumption. The worst case is they limit separation to really low values and lock convergence. Sometimes they allow minimal convergence options or only allow selective adjustment of certain objects within the scene (BF3 and Deus Ex for example). The best case is a game like Trine 2 that allows a lot of adjustment but tweaks convergence at various depths to make viewing comfortable and focused at any setting.
There's certainly areas Nvidia could improve its implementation but I think the only ones they're considering are minor, ease-of-use features like multiple profile presets and hotkeys. Overall though I think the workaround issue is overstated, mainly because the number of games that have effective workarounds is minimal. You either have a game that has 3D visuals that make it worth playing in 3D, or not. In the games that have great 3D visuals, various limititions or problems like 2D icons/cursors or incorrect depth for some objects/effects are more easily overlooked. Just really depends on the severity of the problem and how integral they are to gameplay.
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
[quote name='andysonofbob' date='29 December 2011 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1325187577' post='1348738']
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because [b]I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. [/b] (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
[/quote]
I strongly disagree with that statement. The problem isn't dev involvement, that's the biggest part of the solution imo. The problem is when devs try to limit the settings and customization of 3D settings, particularly convergence. The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
But here's an easy illustration. Take a look at the 30 or so 3D Vision Ready games out there. Now take a random sample of 30 games on the PC that have no dev support for 3D. Heck, even take the BEST 30 games that aren't 3D Vision Ready. Now, taken as a whole, which group of games do you think are a better showcase of 3D? I would take the 3D Vision Ready games in a heartbeat. The only problem with most of the games on that list is locked convergence, if that was unlocked, it wouldn't even be a question.
A standard or rating system is fine but right now there's just not enough focus or results from the various avenues out there. 3D Vision is the one example that has made any significant headway with developers that has produced real results, so that's where I choose to focus my efforts.
[quote name='andysonofbob' date='29 December 2011 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1325187577' post='1348738']
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
I strongly disagree with that statement. The problem isn't dev involvement, that's the biggest part of the solution imo. The problem is when devs try to limit the settings and customization of 3D settings, particularly convergence. The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
But here's an easy illustration. Take a look at the 30 or so 3D Vision Ready games out there. Now take a random sample of 30 games on the PC that have no dev support for 3D. Heck, even take the BEST 30 games that aren't 3D Vision Ready. Now, taken as a whole, which group of games do you think are a better showcase of 3D? I would take the 3D Vision Ready games in a heartbeat. The only problem with most of the games on that list is locked convergence, if that was unlocked, it wouldn't even be a question.
A standard or rating system is fine but right now there's just not enough focus or results from the various avenues out there. 3D Vision is the one example that has made any significant headway with developers that has produced real results, so that's where I choose to focus my efforts.
[quote name='chiz' date='29 December 2011 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1325190125' post='1348760']The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
[/quote]
OK I am still greeved by the initial nVidia 3D user lockout of DE:HR which spured my anti-dev support rhetoric but I do think there have been too many problematic dev supported games for one reason or other, with various severity (DE:HR being the last straw...).
Totally agree with the quoted statement though. Which is why I believe there needs to be a standard. Hense the reason I am glad the industry are starting to take note of MTBS3D's rating system. (I think these guys know what they are talking about) That way my fear of dev supported 3D will melt away and all games will look like dev supported Trine 2 and not Dev supported 3D Ready Bioshock 2 (extreme cases but you know what I mean).
[quote name='chiz' date='29 December 2011 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1325190125' post='1348760']The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
OK I am still greeved by the initial nVidia 3D user lockout of DE:HR which spured my anti-dev support rhetoric but I do think there have been too many problematic dev supported games for one reason or other, with various severity (DE:HR being the last straw...).
Totally agree with the quoted statement though. Which is why I believe there needs to be a standard. Hense the reason I am glad the industry are starting to take note of MTBS3D's rating system. (I think these guys know what they are talking about) That way my fear of dev supported 3D will melt away and all games will look like dev supported Trine 2 and not Dev supported 3D Ready Bioshock 2 (extreme cases but you know what I mean).
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
Before I break Skyrim by doing something stupid, if I install another starfield mod will this screw up Boris' fix? Thanks!
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
[quote name='andysonofbob' date='31 December 2011 - 03:14 AM' timestamp='1325322849' post='1349556']
Before I break Skyrim by doing something stupid, if I install another starfield mod will this screw up Boris' fix? Thanks!
[/quote]
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
I still got my old Viewsonic vx2265wm monitor sitting around unused and my old 3D Vision 1 emitter and glasses so I thought I could put them to good use and send them to Boris. Partly so that he could have some of his own hardware to test 3D fixes on and also to thank him for all the support he has given the gaming community. Unfortunately, even though the box the monitor is in isn't that big, it would apparently cost me, at minimum, $350 to ship them to him. That's just ridiculous and sad at the same time.
I still got my old Viewsonic vx2265wm monitor sitting around unused and my old 3D Vision 1 emitter and glasses so I thought I could put them to good use and send them to Boris. Partly so that he could have some of his own hardware to test 3D fixes on and also to thank him for all the support he has given the gaming community. Unfortunately, even though the box the monitor is in isn't that big, it would apparently cost me, at minimum, $350 to ship them to him. That's just ridiculous and sad at the same time.
I ended up donating $50 to Boris on his ENB site. That might seem like a lot but for the hundreds of hours I will end up putting into this game over the next couple years I thought it was worth doing. I am sure he would appreciate anything he can get from anyone here so don't be shy! /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
I ended up donating $50 to Boris on his ENB site. That might seem like a lot but for the hundreds of hours I will end up putting into this game over the next couple years I thought it was worth doing. I am sure he would appreciate anything he can get from anyone here so don't be shy! /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
[quote name='Arioch' date='31 December 2011 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1325362345' post='1349760']
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
[/quote]
Thanks mate!
Any idea about removing the HDR effect (I think...) Screen darkens when I look at any bright objects which is annoying. I understand the effect but it is too strong.
[quote name='Arioch' date='31 December 2011 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1325362345' post='1349760']
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
Thanks mate!
Any idea about removing the HDR effect (I think...) Screen darkens when I look at any bright objects which is annoying. I understand the effect but it is too strong.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
[quote name='Osobari' date='30 December 2011 - 03:05 AM' timestamp='1325214303' post='1348880']
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
[/quote]
Those are both Unreal engine 3 so don't hold your breath. Pretty much every UE3 game has 3D issues with shadows and light halos.
[quote name='Osobari' date='30 December 2011 - 03:05 AM' timestamp='1325214303' post='1348880']
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
Those are both Unreal engine 3 so don't hold your breath. Pretty much every UE3 game has 3D issues with shadows and light halos.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
There is still an issue with the water in all dungeons when it is only very shallow. This is actually probably the most affected water in the game as it looks 6ft deep even thoughts only 6cm deep. Really is hard to ignore since your closed in with it.
There is still an issue with the water in all dungeons when it is only very shallow. This is actually probably the most affected water in the game as it looks 6ft deep even thoughts only 6cm deep. Really is hard to ignore since your closed in with it.
Well those are probably two of the worst examples as both of those studios are quite possibly the biggest luddites in the industry. Never mind 3D, their graphics and game engines are generally way behind the times, yet they still happen to do 3D well by accident on occasion.
Dragon Age 1/2 are fine in 3D, only suffer the same problem as myriad others with 2D cursor, name plates etc. Same can be said for TOR. Bethesda doesn't do anything specific to support 3D, but the simple ability to toggle off their crosshair allows a good experience by using the 3D laser sight. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had issues similar to most older UE3 titles, but there's reason for optimism with ME3 if it uses a UE3 build after 3D Vision support was officially supported. Some of the best 3D Vision titles released in recent months have been built on UE3.
Now lets look at some of the signs indicating 3D stereo is the future with significant uptake:
[list]
[*]CryEngine 3 has native 3D stereo support, Crytek's own 2D+depth approach. Already implemented on both PC and consoles, natively.
[*]Battlefield 3 and all future Frost Bite 2 Engine games will support native stereo rendering. EA is heavily leveraging FB2 for all EA-developed titles.
[*]Unreal Engine 3, the premier licensed engine of the DX9/10 era on both the consoles and the PC now fully supports 3D Vision natively in its SDK.
[*]Games with in-game controls or native 3D stereo implementations are ever-increasing, like Starcraft 2, Avatar the game, Trine 1/2. Today I stumbled upon Dungeon Siege III with native 3D settings.
[*]Numerous titles that made the necessary changes to qualify for 3D Vision Ready status (all 3D Vision Ready games).
[*]Major MMOs that either have good 3D support natively or patch in support after the fact including WoW, Rift, Aion, FFXIV, LOTRO, TOR.
[*][b]Major AAA releases on the consoles[/b] with 3D stereo support, including Gears of War 3, Halo, Uncharted 3, Gran Turismo 5, Killzone 3, Batman Arkham City.
[/list]
The last bullet is the key imo. Major console releases have the budget to make 3D stereo integration seamless and once consumers get a taste of it, they're going to want more of it, the same way its happened in the PC market. Of course the difference is, the PC gaming community by itself isn't enough to drive the demand for better 3D support and content, but the console market clearly is.
Its just a matter of a major dev studio or publisher committing to 3D once, seeing the benefits, and then perpetuating best practices to support 3D in all of their future titles. Despite some of Todd Howard's comments on 3D in the past, I fully expect Elder Scrolls VI to be in 3D as a major selling point of the game....not so much for the sake of the PC, but for the consoles.
I wouldn't want any software or video processor-based auto-conversion, those look terrible and introduce even more input lag. I'd want something similar to DDD's that intercepts draw calls, estimates depth values, then injects new W values to correct depth in 3D as needed. But again, that'd be redundant since I already have that option while using 3D Vision as my primary solution, best of both worlds really, and only using Nvidia's 3D ecosystem.
But if you wanted this feature badly enough you could use it with any 3DTV Play HDTV with 2D to 3D conversion.
[/quote]
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
Well those are probably two of the worst examples as both of those studios are quite possibly the biggest luddites in the industry. Never mind 3D, their graphics and game engines are generally way behind the times, yet they still happen to do 3D well by accident on occasion.
Dragon Age 1/2 are fine in 3D, only suffer the same problem as myriad others with 2D cursor, name plates etc. Same can be said for TOR. Bethesda doesn't do anything specific to support 3D, but the simple ability to toggle off their crosshair allows a good experience by using the 3D laser sight. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had issues similar to most older UE3 titles, but there's reason for optimism with ME3 if it uses a UE3 build after 3D Vision support was officially supported. Some of the best 3D Vision titles released in recent months have been built on UE3.
Now lets look at some of the signs indicating 3D stereo is the future with significant uptake:
The last bullet is the key imo. Major console releases have the budget to make 3D stereo integration seamless and once consumers get a taste of it, they're going to want more of it, the same way its happened in the PC market. Of course the difference is, the PC gaming community by itself isn't enough to drive the demand for better 3D support and content, but the console market clearly is.
Its just a matter of a major dev studio or publisher committing to 3D once, seeing the benefits, and then perpetuating best practices to support 3D in all of their future titles. Despite some of Todd Howard's comments on 3D in the past, I fully expect Elder Scrolls VI to be in 3D as a major selling point of the game....not so much for the sake of the PC, but for the consoles.
I wouldn't want any software or video processor-based auto-conversion, those look terrible and introduce even more input lag. I'd want something similar to DDD's that intercepts draw calls, estimates depth values, then injects new W values to correct depth in 3D as needed. But again, that'd be redundant since I already have that option while using 3D Vision as my primary solution, best of both worlds really, and only using Nvidia's 3D ecosystem.
But if you wanted this feature badly enough you could use it with any 3DTV Play HDTV with 2D to 3D conversion.
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
[/quote]
Thanks! I agree 2011 has been a great year for 3D gaming and its only going to get better imo. I put together a list of 2011 games that worked well in 3D here, and most of the big name titles on the PC were well supported: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=218872&view=findpost&p=1344934
I also agree the next-gen consoles and HDTV industry are ultimately going to be the driving factor for 3D adoption, but even on that front the buzz has gone from really negative/pessimistic to increasingly enthusiastic. While Nvidia won't be able to drive mainstream 3D adoption by themselves, they've done a great job so far and will only benefit from additional help from the console/movie industries.
[quote name='Osobari' date='29 December 2011 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1325177059' post='1348671']
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
[/quote]
Well, it goes both ways too. A lot of times, dev support or native implementation actually means less wiggle and tweak room for 3D as they look to provide a homogenized form of 3D that's safe for mass consumption. The worst case is they limit separation to really low values and lock convergence. Sometimes they allow minimal convergence options or only allow selective adjustment of certain objects within the scene (BF3 and Deus Ex for example). The best case is a game like Trine 2 that allows a lot of adjustment but tweaks convergence at various depths to make viewing comfortable and focused at any setting.
There's certainly areas Nvidia could improve its implementation but I think the only ones they're considering are minor, ease-of-use features like multiple profile presets and hotkeys. Overall though I think the workaround issue is overstated, mainly because the number of games that have effective workarounds is minimal. You either have a game that has 3D visuals that make it worth playing in 3D, or not. In the games that have great 3D visuals, various limititions or problems like 2D icons/cursors or incorrect depth for some objects/effects are more easily overlooked. Just really depends on the severity of the problem and how integral they are to gameplay.
Great post Chiz, good work. A year ago no graphic engine supported 3d, now other that ID engine, most of them are compatible with 3d, and 90% a this year big budget games work in 3d, all in all it's been a great year for 3d.
For me, the key for 3d to become standard is next gen consoles, and in this case Sony has been pushing 3d so hard, I frankly expect PS4 to have 3d working from day 1. If neither PS4 or XboxNext support it, 3d future will be doubtful, at least in terms of official support.
Thanks! I agree 2011 has been a great year for 3D gaming and its only going to get better imo. I put together a list of 2011 games that worked well in 3D here, and most of the big name titles on the PC were well supported: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=218872&view=findpost&p=1344934
I also agree the next-gen consoles and HDTV industry are ultimately going to be the driving factor for 3D adoption, but even on that front the buzz has gone from really negative/pessimistic to increasingly enthusiastic. While Nvidia won't be able to drive mainstream 3D adoption by themselves, they've done a great job so far and will only benefit from additional help from the console/movie industries.
[quote name='Osobari' date='29 December 2011 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1325177059' post='1348671']
I hope you're right, since I hate all the workarounds you have to do with a lot of games to get an adequate 3D experience. Of course, some big-name publishers will probably never jump on the 3D bandwagon, so I'd still like it if 3D Vision saw some improvements at some point. If there's one thing I wish were possible, it's a way to auto-correct incorrect skybox depth, since it's such a reoccurring issue.
Well, it goes both ways too. A lot of times, dev support or native implementation actually means less wiggle and tweak room for 3D as they look to provide a homogenized form of 3D that's safe for mass consumption. The worst case is they limit separation to really low values and lock convergence. Sometimes they allow minimal convergence options or only allow selective adjustment of certain objects within the scene (BF3 and Deus Ex for example). The best case is a game like Trine 2 that allows a lot of adjustment but tweaks convergence at various depths to make viewing comfortable and focused at any setting.
There's certainly areas Nvidia could improve its implementation but I think the only ones they're considering are minor, ease-of-use features like multiple profile presets and hotkeys. Overall though I think the workaround issue is overstated, mainly because the number of games that have effective workarounds is minimal. You either have a game that has 3D visuals that make it worth playing in 3D, or not. In the games that have great 3D visuals, various limititions or problems like 2D icons/cursors or incorrect depth for some objects/effects are more easily overlooked. Just really depends on the severity of the problem and how integral they are to gameplay.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because [b]I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. [/b] (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
[/quote]
I strongly disagree with that statement. The problem isn't dev involvement, that's the biggest part of the solution imo. The problem is when devs try to limit the settings and customization of 3D settings, particularly convergence. The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
But here's an easy illustration. Take a look at the 30 or so 3D Vision Ready games out there. Now take a random sample of 30 games on the PC that have no dev support for 3D. Heck, even take the BEST 30 games that aren't 3D Vision Ready. Now, taken as a whole, which group of games do you think are a better showcase of 3D? I would take the 3D Vision Ready games in a heartbeat. The only problem with most of the games on that list is locked convergence, if that was unlocked, it wouldn't even be a question.
A standard or rating system is fine but right now there's just not enough focus or results from the various avenues out there. 3D Vision is the one example that has made any significant headway with developers that has produced real results, so that's where I choose to focus my efforts.
We need an industry standard for 3D. We have all seen the risible 3D some of the AAA devs have released whilst stamping 3D Ready badges (or equivalent) on their games. I completely support the work MTBS3D (Meant To Be Seen 3D) are doing to achieve this.
I know this sounds like I am being overly pro MTBS3D but that's because I hate it when devs get involved in 3D. Why? Because it usually goes completely wrong! And I think it goes wrong because the game devs don't know what they are doing. (I genuinely believe some people on this forum are more clued up regarding 3D than many game developers). People like MTBS3D are trying to fix this.
What is really pleasing is that MTBS3D's efforts have become recognised in the wider industry. Tomshardware has refered to MTBS3D's game rating system as have apparently ATI during an inhouse PowerPoint presentation. The more people taking 3D seriously the more likely we will see devs developing 3D ready games.
As Oblivioner said I too am really looking forward to the next gen consoles but I guess all PC users are.
I strongly disagree with that statement. The problem isn't dev involvement, that's the biggest part of the solution imo. The problem is when devs try to limit the settings and customization of 3D settings, particularly convergence. The solution isn't to discourage devs from actively supporting 3D in their games, the solution is to emphasize and inform them on how to best implement 3D and the impact settings like convergence can have on the quality of 3D.
But here's an easy illustration. Take a look at the 30 or so 3D Vision Ready games out there. Now take a random sample of 30 games on the PC that have no dev support for 3D. Heck, even take the BEST 30 games that aren't 3D Vision Ready. Now, taken as a whole, which group of games do you think are a better showcase of 3D? I would take the 3D Vision Ready games in a heartbeat. The only problem with most of the games on that list is locked convergence, if that was unlocked, it wouldn't even be a question.
A standard or rating system is fine but right now there's just not enough focus or results from the various avenues out there. 3D Vision is the one example that has made any significant headway with developers that has produced real results, so that's where I choose to focus my efforts.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
[/quote]
OK I am still greeved by the initial nVidia 3D user lockout of DE:HR which spured my anti-dev support rhetoric but I do think there have been too many problematic dev supported games for one reason or other, with various severity (DE:HR being the last straw...).
Totally agree with the quoted statement though. Which is why I believe there needs to be a standard. Hense the reason I am glad the industry are starting to take note of MTBS3D's rating system. (I think these guys know what they are talking about) That way my fear of dev supported 3D will melt away and all games will look like dev supported Trine 2 and not Dev supported 3D Ready Bioshock 2 (extreme cases but you know what I mean).
OK I am still greeved by the initial nVidia 3D user lockout of DE:HR which spured my anti-dev support rhetoric but I do think there have been too many problematic dev supported games for one reason or other, with various severity (DE:HR being the last straw...).
Totally agree with the quoted statement though. Which is why I believe there needs to be a standard. Hense the reason I am glad the industry are starting to take note of MTBS3D's rating system. (I think these guys know what they are talking about) That way my fear of dev supported 3D will melt away and all games will look like dev supported Trine 2 and not Dev supported 3D Ready Bioshock 2 (extreme cases but you know what I mean).
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
Before I break Skyrim by doing something stupid, if I install another starfield mod will this screw up Boris' fix? Thanks!
[/quote]
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
Before I break Skyrim by doing something stupid, if I install another starfield mod will this screw up Boris' fix? Thanks!
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
I still got my old Viewsonic vx2265wm monitor sitting around unused and my old 3D Vision 1 emitter and glasses so I thought I could put them to good use and send them to Boris. Partly so that he could have some of his own hardware to test 3D fixes on and also to thank him for all the support he has given the gaming community. Unfortunately, even though the box the monitor is in isn't that big, it would apparently cost me, at minimum, $350 to ship them to him. That's just ridiculous and sad at the same time.
I still got my old Viewsonic vx2265wm monitor sitting around unused and my old 3D Vision 1 emitter and glasses so I thought I could put them to good use and send them to Boris. Partly so that he could have some of his own hardware to test 3D fixes on and also to thank him for all the support he has given the gaming community. Unfortunately, even though the box the monitor is in isn't that big, it would apparently cost me, at minimum, $350 to ship them to him. That's just ridiculous and sad at the same time.
http://enbdev.com/donate_en.htm
http://enbdev.com/donate_en.htm
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
[/quote]
Thanks mate!
Any idea about removing the HDR effect (I think...) Screen darkens when I look at any bright objects which is annoying. I understand the effect but it is too strong.
It shouldn't as long as it is only textures and not meshes being installed.
Thanks mate!
Any idea about removing the HDR effect (I think...) Screen darkens when I look at any bright objects which is annoying. I understand the effect but it is too strong.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
Vitals: Windows 7 64bit, i5 2500 @ 4.4ghz, SLI GTX670, 8GB, Viewsonic VX2268WM
Handy Driver Discussion
Helix Mod - community fixes
Bo3b's Shaderhacker School - How to fix 3D in games
3dsolutionsgaming.com - videos, reviews and 3D fixes
This holiday I must have played Skyrim patched for at least 24 hours, its been fantastic.
This holiday I must have played Skyrim patched for at least 24 hours, its been fantastic.
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
[/quote]
Those are both Unreal engine 3 so don't hold your breath. Pretty much every UE3 game has 3D issues with shadows and light halos.
Well, here's hoping the next round of big releases has at least some 3D Vision Ready games. Bioshock: Infinite and Mass Effect 3 with native 3D would be a godsend.
Those are both Unreal engine 3 so don't hold your breath. Pretty much every UE3 game has 3D issues with shadows and light halos.