Stereoscopic Displays and Applications conference many filmed presentations
Thanks to Bloody for posting this on his blog: [url="http://3dvision-blog.com"]http://3dvision-blog.com[/url]

[b][size="3"][color="#4169E1"][color="#FF0000"]Stereoscopic Displays and[/color][/color][/size][/b][color="#0000FF"][b][size="3"] Applications conference[/size][/b][/color][color="#0000FF"][size="3"][b] 2012[/b][/size][/color]
[url="http://www.stereoscopic.org/2012/program.html"]link[/url]

There were lots of speakers giving the results of studies they'd participated in and many were filmed. Some I have found very interesting so far are the introduction to PS3 3D gaming (looks like 3D development on the PS3 and its successor are in good hands; should be good for everyone) and the 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation. I just started watching a couple hours ago, so i haven't watched many.

Nvidia was a top-rated sponsor.(Thanks Nvidia)
Thanks to Bloody for posting this on his blog: http://3dvision-blog.com



Stereoscopic Displays and Applications conference 2012

link



There were lots of speakers giving the results of studies they'd participated in and many were filmed. Some I have found very interesting so far are the introduction to PS3 3D gaming (looks like 3D development on the PS3 and its successor are in good hands; should be good for everyone) and the 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation. I just started watching a couple hours ago, so i haven't watched many.



Nvidia was a top-rated sponsor.(Thanks Nvidia)

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#1
Posted 04/19/2012 12:26 AM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='19 April 2012 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1334795201' post='1398079']
Thanks to Bloody for posting this on his blog: [url="http://3dvision-blog.com"]http://3dvision-blog.com[/url]

[b][size="3"][color="#4169E1"][color="#FF0000"]Stereoscopic Displays and[/color][/color][/size][/b][color="#0000FF"][b][size="3"] Applications conference[/size][/b][/color][color="#0000FF"][size="3"][b] 2012[/b][/size][/color]
[url="http://www.stereoscopic.org/2012/program.html"]link[/url]

There were lots of speakers giving the results of studies they'd participated in and many were filmed. Some I have found very interesting so far are the introduction to PS3 3D gaming (looks like 3D development on the PS3 and its successor are in good hands; should be good for everyone) and the 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation. I just started watching a couple hours ago, so i haven't watched many.

Nvidia was a top-rated sponsor.(Thanks Nvidia)
[/quote]
There is one on Auto-Convergence by texas Instruments that sounds interesting...I want that added to 3D Vision.
[quote name='Libertine' date='19 April 2012 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1334795201' post='1398079']

Thanks to Bloody for posting this on his blog: http://3dvision-blog.com



Stereoscopic Displays and Applications conference 2012

link



There were lots of speakers giving the results of studies they'd participated in and many were filmed. Some I have found very interesting so far are the introduction to PS3 3D gaming (looks like 3D development on the PS3 and its successor are in good hands; should be good for everyone) and the 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation. I just started watching a couple hours ago, so i haven't watched many.



Nvidia was a top-rated sponsor.(Thanks Nvidia)



There is one on Auto-Convergence by texas Instruments that sounds interesting...I want that added to 3D Vision.

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#2
Posted 04/19/2012 01:48 AM   
I watched the one from Sony, it was really interesting and confirmed some theories I had about why playing games in s-3d on my ps3 sometimes feel better than on pc and how adding a few mechanics can make the s-3d work regardless whether you are playing or watching a cutscene. Btw these mechanics are the closest thing to having auto-convergence, but you do sacrifice the user control for convergence, not that this is a problem, since essentially that's the general idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8l97OzlVOA&feature=html5_3d
I watched the one from Sony, it was really interesting and confirmed some theories I had about why playing games in s-3d on my ps3 sometimes feel better than on pc and how adding a few mechanics can make the s-3d work regardless whether you are playing or watching a cutscene. Btw these mechanics are the closest thing to having auto-convergence, but you do sacrifice the user control for convergence, not that this is a problem, since essentially that's the general idea.

;feature=html5_3d
#3
Posted 04/19/2012 12:01 PM   
Well Artox, I would have a problem with giving up convergence adjustments altogether, but I tell you what would be a great feature imo... Allow us to adjust convergence to our liking, and THEN auto adjust it for close/far/cutscenes using parameters taken from the baseline user-input setting.
Well Artox, I would have a problem with giving up convergence adjustments altogether, but I tell you what would be a great feature imo... Allow us to adjust convergence to our liking, and THEN auto adjust it for close/far/cutscenes using parameters taken from the baseline user-input setting.

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#4
Posted 04/19/2012 12:24 PM   
SnickerSnack , the iz3d and DDD methods of autoconvergence work the way you describe, sadly they are not as efficient as the one described by Sony, and I also would like to have the option to assign some initial convergence setting. For pc having the option unlocked is a must, but I doubt console gamers will get an option other than depth.
The problem with setting a personal convergence point and having to maintain an automated one after that is that the initial parameters will have to be defined fairly strict in order to avoid too much negative depth or lack of any effect. With DDD and iz3d these settings lead to toyfication in scenes that have to employ depth, for example in a 3rd person game you set the convergence point to 0 parallax on the charachter, or slightly negative, the scene changes and you get a building at the same convergence point, which is now toyfied due to this convergence setting.
What I've also noticed from the presentation is that with such automated settings with close-ups the separation gets so severely reduced, that you essentially don't get any real s-3d effect. I've seen this exact problem in Unchared 3, where the moment you open the diary in the game, instead of having it pop-out for a more pronounced effect, due to the extreme close-up in relation the the character, who is the main convergence point, the separation is reduced and there isn't any pop-out to counter this reduction. I think the Nvidia driver also calculates the max separation on a scene basis, since comparing cutscene shots from the witcher 2 with iz3d and 3dvision I've noticed lack of any pop-out during these scenes with 3dvision, while iz3d had plenty, and this with parallax set on the character (after that I discovered how to change settings with 3dvision in the game ini).
But a more scripted experience is the way to go IMO, then again developers need to be more comfortable with developing for s-3d before this happens.
SnickerSnack , the iz3d and DDD methods of autoconvergence work the way you describe, sadly they are not as efficient as the one described by Sony, and I also would like to have the option to assign some initial convergence setting. For pc having the option unlocked is a must, but I doubt console gamers will get an option other than depth.

The problem with setting a personal convergence point and having to maintain an automated one after that is that the initial parameters will have to be defined fairly strict in order to avoid too much negative depth or lack of any effect. With DDD and iz3d these settings lead to toyfication in scenes that have to employ depth, for example in a 3rd person game you set the convergence point to 0 parallax on the charachter, or slightly negative, the scene changes and you get a building at the same convergence point, which is now toyfied due to this convergence setting.

What I've also noticed from the presentation is that with such automated settings with close-ups the separation gets so severely reduced, that you essentially don't get any real s-3d effect. I've seen this exact problem in Unchared 3, where the moment you open the diary in the game, instead of having it pop-out for a more pronounced effect, due to the extreme close-up in relation the the character, who is the main convergence point, the separation is reduced and there isn't any pop-out to counter this reduction. I think the Nvidia driver also calculates the max separation on a scene basis, since comparing cutscene shots from the witcher 2 with iz3d and 3dvision I've noticed lack of any pop-out during these scenes with 3dvision, while iz3d had plenty, and this with parallax set on the character (after that I discovered how to change settings with 3dvision in the game ini).

But a more scripted experience is the way to go IMO, then again developers need to be more comfortable with developing for s-3d before this happens.
#5
Posted 04/19/2012 03:30 PM   
Another thing that can be annoying is the length of time it takes to transition to different convergence profiles. L.A. Noire does this. When accessing the casebook, for example, the convergence setting changes, but it takes around 2 seconds to activate. It's not terribly distracting, but in a different game that required quick reflexes or something it would be very distracting.
Another thing that can be annoying is the length of time it takes to transition to different convergence profiles. L.A. Noire does this. When accessing the casebook, for example, the convergence setting changes, but it takes around 2 seconds to activate. It's not terribly distracting, but in a different game that required quick reflexes or something it would be very distracting.

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#6
Posted 04/19/2012 05:22 PM   
Well, there is a similar problem with Killzone 3, where the convergence changes when you go from a gun to a knife kill, and yes it is noticeable, but not a problem, since you don't have any interaction at that moment. You've pressed the button and wait for the action to happen, but if the convergence changes slowly during aiming and firing then there would be a problem. The best use of auto-convergence with a driver I have seen was DDD in POP 2008, where you have particle effects flying towards the screen and they always end up having negative parallax (the particle closest to the viewer), while when there aren't any particles the convergence point is on your character. As quick as the convergence shifted it was still noticeable when having higher separation values set. I'm not sure if it is even possible to have auto convergence which shifts under the radar, unless you are playing a slow-moving game, preferably a quest (think Myst5 or Myst online).
Well, there is a similar problem with Killzone 3, where the convergence changes when you go from a gun to a knife kill, and yes it is noticeable, but not a problem, since you don't have any interaction at that moment. You've pressed the button and wait for the action to happen, but if the convergence changes slowly during aiming and firing then there would be a problem. The best use of auto-convergence with a driver I have seen was DDD in POP 2008, where you have particle effects flying towards the screen and they always end up having negative parallax (the particle closest to the viewer), while when there aren't any particles the convergence point is on your character. As quick as the convergence shifted it was still noticeable when having higher separation values set. I'm not sure if it is even possible to have auto convergence which shifts under the radar, unless you are playing a slow-moving game, preferably a quest (think Myst5 or Myst online).
#7
Posted 04/20/2012 08:04 AM   
An interesting presentation about discomfort was in there. Their results were that the "zone of comfort" was larger when viewing the screen up close than it was from far away. In other words, it indicated we can tolerate more depth in PC gaming using close viewing distances than while watching a movie in a theater. Not only was this the finding of this particular study, but it referenced other studies with the same conclusion. Somebody might want to show that to the Crysis 2 devs. (I just bought Crysis 2 btw and read the warning when enabling 3D, "15 minute break every hour". I couldn't believe my eyes, as i play Bad Company 2 all day long with no breaks and no strain...)

FYI, we now have multiple studies saying the average human has a much easier time viewing popout in a movie theater viewing scenario vs depth, and the opposite for close viewing, like PC use.
An interesting presentation about discomfort was in there. Their results were that the "zone of comfort" was larger when viewing the screen up close than it was from far away. In other words, it indicated we can tolerate more depth in PC gaming using close viewing distances than while watching a movie in a theater. Not only was this the finding of this particular study, but it referenced other studies with the same conclusion. Somebody might want to show that to the Crysis 2 devs. (I just bought Crysis 2 btw and read the warning when enabling 3D, "15 minute break every hour". I couldn't believe my eyes, as i play Bad Company 2 all day long with no breaks and no strain...)



FYI, we now have multiple studies saying the average human has a much easier time viewing popout in a movie theater viewing scenario vs depth, and the opposite for close viewing, like PC use.

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#8
Posted 04/20/2012 11:45 PM   
I've played about 13 hours without breaks (occasional wc and food break), so these 15 minutes per hour are more of the general rule not specific to s-3d monitor usage. Generally when you look at a display for extended periods of time (like for gaming or reading) you forget to blink, which leads to eye dryness and fatigue, and this is why breaks are necessary. Another possibility is to use artificial teardrops.
The bit about pop-out/depth in the cinema and at home is interesting. Generally I've noticed that s-3d movies tend to be really stingy on depth in the cinema and get boosted for the home. This is only logical, as in the cinema you've got a giant viewing area, which fills your line of sight. At home you don't have that (with a projector or big ass 100" Tv you probably do, but I don't have either) and you have to compensate this lack of display size with additional depth to artificially boost the display size. This is also why Nvidia drivers tend to reduce the 100% depth value for bigger displays. The catch is that at home you still suffer from ghosting and increasing the depth usually increases ghosting, while in the cinema, where ghosting isn't an issue, no one takes advantage of this. Personally I would like to abandon these prerequisites for cinema vs home theater and have a lot of depth in the cinema, so that you could feel as if you were truly inside, instead of having things flying at you.
I've played about 13 hours without breaks (occasional wc and food break), so these 15 minutes per hour are more of the general rule not specific to s-3d monitor usage. Generally when you look at a display for extended periods of time (like for gaming or reading) you forget to blink, which leads to eye dryness and fatigue, and this is why breaks are necessary. Another possibility is to use artificial teardrops.

The bit about pop-out/depth in the cinema and at home is interesting. Generally I've noticed that s-3d movies tend to be really stingy on depth in the cinema and get boosted for the home. This is only logical, as in the cinema you've got a giant viewing area, which fills your line of sight. At home you don't have that (with a projector or big ass 100" Tv you probably do, but I don't have either) and you have to compensate this lack of display size with additional depth to artificially boost the display size. This is also why Nvidia drivers tend to reduce the 100% depth value for bigger displays. The catch is that at home you still suffer from ghosting and increasing the depth usually increases ghosting, while in the cinema, where ghosting isn't an issue, no one takes advantage of this. Personally I would like to abandon these prerequisites for cinema vs home theater and have a lot of depth in the cinema, so that you could feel as if you were truly inside, instead of having things flying at you.
#9
Posted 04/21/2012 12:54 PM   
[quote name='Artox' date='21 April 2012 - 04:54 AM' timestamp='1335012895' post='1399089']
Generally I've noticed that s-3d movies tend to be really stingy on depth in the cinema and get boosted for the home.
[/quote]

Some movies may have had some work done to increase the separation and there is a feature that widens the separation on at least one brand of TV, but for the rest, its actually the opposite, movies have more depth than at home. This is because the depth cue in S3D depends on vergence (the angle your take on at a given depth) and the size of a movie screen causes the maximum depth to be 6.5 cm or more, but at home, this same picture is displayed across a much smaller space, resulting in much less separation. Tron for example had a maximum .25 inches of separation on a 46" or 55" screen, i can't remember which it was, but i searched and searched while trying to find some good spots for testing crosstalk, but that was all i could find. Most other movies i've seen are similar to that. I'm not aware of a single movie that was retouched for home use. Sitting farther back helps and increases the perception of depth, but if you listen to the study i referred to in my first post( 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation), hes says the study participants had to sit 7 meters back from a 46" screen to get what they thought was the same depth. That is what i call non-immersive viewing.

The problem with increasing depth in the movie theaters is that if a child with a 3cm interocular sits right in front of the screen which has a 6.5cm positive parallax (separation), thats going to be a problem. So what i think they need to do is film two different versions of the movie using a system of mirrors or something. BTW: Sitting back farther in the theater should increase the depth, i keep that in mind when i see movies, especially conversions.

EDIT: "when i say movies"...
[quote name='Artox' date='21 April 2012 - 04:54 AM' timestamp='1335012895' post='1399089']

Generally I've noticed that s-3d movies tend to be really stingy on depth in the cinema and get boosted for the home.





Some movies may have had some work done to increase the separation and there is a feature that widens the separation on at least one brand of TV, but for the rest, its actually the opposite, movies have more depth than at home. This is because the depth cue in S3D depends on vergence (the angle your take on at a given depth) and the size of a movie screen causes the maximum depth to be 6.5 cm or more, but at home, this same picture is displayed across a much smaller space, resulting in much less separation. Tron for example had a maximum .25 inches of separation on a 46" or 55" screen, i can't remember which it was, but i searched and searched while trying to find some good spots for testing crosstalk, but that was all i could find. Most other movies i've seen are similar to that. I'm not aware of a single movie that was retouched for home use. Sitting farther back helps and increases the perception of depth, but if you listen to the study i referred to in my first post( 3D cinema to 3DTV content adaptation), hes says the study participants had to sit 7 meters back from a 46" screen to get what they thought was the same depth. That is what i call non-immersive viewing.



The problem with increasing depth in the movie theaters is that if a child with a 3cm interocular sits right in front of the screen which has a 6.5cm positive parallax (separation), thats going to be a problem. So what i think they need to do is film two different versions of the movie using a system of mirrors or something. BTW: Sitting back farther in the theater should increase the depth, i keep that in mind when i see movies, especially conversions.



EDIT: "when i say movies"...

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#10
Posted 04/22/2012 10:33 AM   
Interesting observations here. I agree that depth gives the illusion of a larger screen. My 23" Asus seems a lot bigger when playing in 3D.

The more I learn about 3D the more I realize that it's a very finicky technology because there are so many variables... pleasing one or two people's depth/convergence preferences sitting in front of a monitor is much easier than pleasing 600 people in a movie theater. I don't know 3D will ever become an essential movie going experience due to those constraints. For gaming on the other hand, it's the only way to go. Most people just don't realize that though. Unless people are exposed to the gaming side of it enough to overcome the bias caused from lame 3D movies, 3D gaming will never become mainstream.
Interesting observations here. I agree that depth gives the illusion of a larger screen. My 23" Asus seems a lot bigger when playing in 3D.



The more I learn about 3D the more I realize that it's a very finicky technology because there are so many variables... pleasing one or two people's depth/convergence preferences sitting in front of a monitor is much easier than pleasing 600 people in a movie theater. I don't know 3D will ever become an essential movie going experience due to those constraints. For gaming on the other hand, it's the only way to go. Most people just don't realize that though. Unless people are exposed to the gaming side of it enough to overcome the bias caused from lame 3D movies, 3D gaming will never become mainstream.

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#11
Posted 04/23/2012 09:41 PM   
Good to know, Libertine, I actually thought that moves got more work done when transitioning to the home. I've also noticed that sitting farther increases the perception of depth, but at the same time, reduces immersion. The good thing is that with gaming you can set the stereo to your liking in accordance with display size and sitting position. With movies its quite the contrary, really limited. I've recently watched both Hugo nad Journey to the Center of the Earth 3d at home. Hugo had much subtler effects, which contributed to the movie, without making it look as a gimmick, but Journey was where s-3d really shined in terms of depth and pop-out (sometimes a bit too much). Then I had the stupidity of watching Harold and Kumar 3d. For a movie, which tries to grab you at every scene and tosses all kinds of stuff at you, they used only zero parallax, no negative whatsoever, which was against the point.
Good to know, Libertine, I actually thought that moves got more work done when transitioning to the home. I've also noticed that sitting farther increases the perception of depth, but at the same time, reduces immersion. The good thing is that with gaming you can set the stereo to your liking in accordance with display size and sitting position. With movies its quite the contrary, really limited. I've recently watched both Hugo nad Journey to the Center of the Earth 3d at home. Hugo had much subtler effects, which contributed to the movie, without making it look as a gimmick, but Journey was where s-3d really shined in terms of depth and pop-out (sometimes a bit too much). Then I had the stupidity of watching Harold and Kumar 3d. For a movie, which tries to grab you at every scene and tosses all kinds of stuff at you, they used only zero parallax, no negative whatsoever, which was against the point.
#12
Posted 04/24/2012 09:29 AM   
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