Possible explanation for natural "ghosting" Why ghosting will always occur.
Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.

Here's my proof:

Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?

It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?

When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.
Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.



Here's my proof:



Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?



It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?



When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.

1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard

2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)

1x EVGA GTX480

8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)

2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)

4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)

1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro

1x BD-ROM

1x DVD-RW

1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply

1x Dell 30" 2560x1600 LCD

1x Samsung 22" 120hz GeForce 3D Vision Display

1x APC 1500VAC SmartUPS Battery Backup

1x Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit

#1
Posted 03/19/2009 04:57 AM   
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520115' date='Mar 19 2009, 06:57 AM']Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.

Here's my proof:

Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?

It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?

When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.[/quote]

/facepalm

That IS NOT ghosting...
Ghosting is about getting the other eye's view overlapping with the other, even when you close one of you eyes.
In games when you close one of you eye in S-3D, you still see ghostng, but in real life, you don't.

/facepalm
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520115' date='Mar 19 2009, 06:57 AM']Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.



Here's my proof:



Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?



It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?



When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.



/facepalm



That IS NOT ghosting...

Ghosting is about getting the other eye's view overlapping with the other, even when you close one of you eyes.

In games when you close one of you eye in S-3D, you still see ghostng, but in real life, you don't.



/facepalm

#2
Posted 03/19/2009 07:45 AM   
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520115' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:57 AM']Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.

Here's my proof:

Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?

It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?

When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.[/quote]
FALSE: ghosting manifests itself as a triple image, not double. The intended image is centered (where you'e looking) with a fainter version on either side. The image in the center is the properly rendered 3d image as seen by both eyes. Add to that an artifact on either side caused by the left eye's image having a faint copy of the right eye's image blended with it (crosstalk).
Each eye actually sees information it is not supposed to see, that is supposed to be blocked by the shutter. So it's not an inevitable side affect of the geometry, it's really about the shuttering mechanism.

I don't think there is anything conceptually wrong with rendering 3d with shutterglasses - I think it could work perfectly. it's just that this particular product isn't effective enough at isolating the left and right images. I am assuming some engineering compromise is the cause, such as a limit to how dark the shutter could be made without adversely affecting the light level when open, for example.

On the plus side, it's great to have 3d that doesn't have flicker or tearing, at high screen resolutions- so we've come along way in other respects
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520115' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:57 AM']Ghosting while looking at object from two perspectives is inevitable.



Here's my proof:



Hold your hand in front of your face half-way between the your monitor and your eyes, but continue to focus on this text. How many fingers do you see?



It has to do with the depth your eyes are focusing at which causes ghosting and is completely natural. Am I wrong?



When I shoot my scoped rifle in real life, I close one eye to avoid double vision. Same principals in play.

FALSE: ghosting manifests itself as a triple image, not double. The intended image is centered (where you'e looking) with a fainter version on either side. The image in the center is the properly rendered 3d image as seen by both eyes. Add to that an artifact on either side caused by the left eye's image having a faint copy of the right eye's image blended with it (crosstalk).

Each eye actually sees information it is not supposed to see, that is supposed to be blocked by the shutter. So it's not an inevitable side affect of the geometry, it's really about the shuttering mechanism.



I don't think there is anything conceptually wrong with rendering 3d with shutterglasses - I think it could work perfectly. it's just that this particular product isn't effective enough at isolating the left and right images. I am assuming some engineering compromise is the cause, such as a limit to how dark the shutter could be made without adversely affecting the light level when open, for example.



On the plus side, it's great to have 3d that doesn't have flicker or tearing, at high screen resolutions- so we've come along way in other respects

#3
Posted 03/19/2009 09:38 AM   
[quote name='rodonic' post='520156' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:38 AM']FALSE: ghosting manifests itself as a triple image, not double. The intended image is centered (where you'e looking) with a fainter version on either side.[/quote]

Ok, well I haven't seen any "triple" image ghosting. The only kind I see are high-contrast and when I'm focusing at one depth, objects at another are doubled like my hand in front of the TV.
[quote name='rodonic' post='520156' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:38 AM']FALSE: ghosting manifests itself as a triple image, not double. The intended image is centered (where you'e looking) with a fainter version on either side.



Ok, well I haven't seen any "triple" image ghosting. The only kind I see are high-contrast and when I'm focusing at one depth, objects at another are doubled like my hand in front of the TV.

1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard

2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)

1x EVGA GTX480

8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)

2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)

4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)

1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro

1x BD-ROM

1x DVD-RW

1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply

1x Dell 30" 2560x1600 LCD

1x Samsung 22" 120hz GeForce 3D Vision Display

1x APC 1500VAC SmartUPS Battery Backup

1x Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit

#4
Posted 03/19/2009 02:06 PM   
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520235' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:06 PM']Ok, well I haven't seen any "triple" image ghosting. The only kind I see are high-contrast and when I'm focusing at one depth, objects at another are doubled like my hand in front of the TV.[/quote]

But you are still wrong.
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='520235' date='Mar 19 2009, 04:06 PM']Ok, well I haven't seen any "triple" image ghosting. The only kind I see are high-contrast and when I'm focusing at one depth, objects at another are doubled like my hand in front of the TV.



But you are still wrong.

#5
Posted 03/19/2009 02:42 PM   
[quote name='snaileri' post='520254' date='Mar 19 2009, 09:42 AM']But you are still wrong.[/quote]

I said "possible" explanation to get intelligent conversation started about another possible source of "ghosting". Thanks for the contribution to the forum.
[quote name='snaileri' post='520254' date='Mar 19 2009, 09:42 AM']But you are still wrong.



I said "possible" explanation to get intelligent conversation started about another possible source of "ghosting". Thanks for the contribution to the forum.

1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard

2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)

1x EVGA GTX480

8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)

2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)

4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)

1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro

1x BD-ROM

1x DVD-RW

1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply

1x Dell 30" 2560x1600 LCD

1x Samsung 22" 120hz GeForce 3D Vision Display

1x APC 1500VAC SmartUPS Battery Backup

1x Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit

#6
Posted 03/19/2009 03:50 PM   
There is a difference between ghosting and an inability for your brain to fuse the two images.

Ghosting can only be tested by closing one eye at a time. With the exception of the S-3D drivers incorrectly double rendering an image in the wrong eye, a perfect solution would not let you see any remnants from the opposite eye. Don't be too hard on NVIDIA or anyone else if you see some ghosting - this is normal. Even if you go to a professional RealD movie theater, you will find ghosting if you look for it.

With both eyes open, if your separation is too high, you can see ghosting or a doubled image because your brain can't combine the two images.

Regards,
Chopper
There is a difference between ghosting and an inability for your brain to fuse the two images.



Ghosting can only be tested by closing one eye at a time. With the exception of the S-3D drivers incorrectly double rendering an image in the wrong eye, a perfect solution would not let you see any remnants from the opposite eye. Don't be too hard on NVIDIA or anyone else if you see some ghosting - this is normal. Even if you go to a professional RealD movie theater, you will find ghosting if you look for it.



With both eyes open, if your separation is too high, you can see ghosting or a doubled image because your brain can't combine the two images.



Regards,

Chopper

#7
Posted 03/19/2009 04:56 PM   
[quote name='Chopper' post='520309' date='Mar 19 2009, 06:56 PM']With both eyes open, if your separation is too high, you can see ghosting or a doubled image because your brain can't combine the two images.

Regards,
Chopper[/quote]

I wouldn't call that "ghosting".

Ghosting will always occur (more or less) when only one screen is used to produce Stereoscopic imaginery.
When both eyes gets image from indivudual sources, there's no ghosting. That's why HMDs don't have ghosting.. They have one individual screen for both eyes.
[quote name='Chopper' post='520309' date='Mar 19 2009, 06:56 PM']With both eyes open, if your separation is too high, you can see ghosting or a doubled image because your brain can't combine the two images.



Regards,

Chopper



I wouldn't call that "ghosting".



Ghosting will always occur (more or less) when only one screen is used to produce Stereoscopic imaginery.

When both eyes gets image from indivudual sources, there's no ghosting. That's why HMDs don't have ghosting.. They have one individual screen for both eyes.

#8
Posted 03/19/2009 05:58 PM   
You are correct. A situation where the brain can't fuse the image because the separation is too high is a case mistaken for ghosting.

Regards,
Chopper
You are correct. A situation where the brain can't fuse the image because the separation is too high is a case mistaken for ghosting.



Regards,

Chopper

#9
Posted 03/19/2009 06:08 PM   
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