Anybody free of ghosting?

Choose one please.

Yes, in EVERY game I play
In SOME games, but not at others
NO, I haven't seen these things before
  2 / 5    
I'm not entirely sure if everyone is capable of seeing these ghosting problems. Is it possible to take a .JPS screenshot and post it here so we can see the ghost while the game is "paused" so to speak?

Someone mentioned they saw some ghosting in my screenshots on this page [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853"](http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853[/url]) but I can't see them in game or with photos.

Rodonic, can you post a screenshot of your nvidia demo while ghosting is easily visable? If the same ghosting is visible to some but not others, perhaps the
1) 3D tinting of some glasses is faulty
2) The monitor is out of sync with the glasses
3) The convergence or separation is off.
4) Unlikely, but maybe it's perceptual in nature only.
I'm not entirely sure if everyone is capable of seeing these ghosting problems. Is it possible to take a .JPS screenshot and post it here so we can see the ghost while the game is "paused" so to speak?



Someone mentioned they saw some ghosting in my screenshots on this page (http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853) but I can't see them in game or with photos.



Rodonic, can you post a screenshot of your nvidia demo while ghosting is easily visable? If the same ghosting is visible to some but not others, perhaps the

1) 3D tinting of some glasses is faulty

2) The monitor is out of sync with the glasses

3) The convergence or separation is off.

4) Unlikely, but maybe it's perceptual in nature only.

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#16
Posted 03/08/2009 03:50 PM   
I think the nvidiaglasses are fine but different monitorsolutions have different properties in regard of displaying pageflipped stereo-3d. You can never get a totally ghostingfree reproduction with shutterglasses.

Shutters never entirely blocks all the light out when they should and also let through a maximum of 45% of light when "open" (polarization in the shutters cuts the light to 45%). However you can very well reach more than satisfying results with shutters and a decent displaydevice. The huge amount of stereogamers prove that! :D

In my opininon and experience more than 80-85% ghostingrejection (according to Freke's testingpicture above) is of no interest anymore since it isn't noticeable in games as well in movies (ok, it has to very big contrasts in the media before it gets noticeable. :P ).

I have a passive polarization rig (which is measured at 85% ghosting rejection), old school nvidiadrivers (winxp, 7900, older games) and the iz3d stereodriver (still xp and 8800GTX, never games) and nothing i've seen comes close to this. I'm curious on what people gets for ghostingvalue on their respective displaydevices and this should also be mentioned in nvidia-3d compatible hdtv's, monitors, projectors etc for helping new customers out in their choices. It could in long term also help hardwaremanufacturers in decision of what components to use in their displays.

Peace!
I think the nvidiaglasses are fine but different monitorsolutions have different properties in regard of displaying pageflipped stereo-3d. You can never get a totally ghostingfree reproduction with shutterglasses.



Shutters never entirely blocks all the light out when they should and also let through a maximum of 45% of light when "open" (polarization in the shutters cuts the light to 45%). However you can very well reach more than satisfying results with shutters and a decent displaydevice. The huge amount of stereogamers prove that! :D



In my opininon and experience more than 80-85% ghostingrejection (according to Freke's testingpicture above) is of no interest anymore since it isn't noticeable in games as well in movies (ok, it has to very big contrasts in the media before it gets noticeable. :P ).



I have a passive polarization rig (which is measured at 85% ghosting rejection), old school nvidiadrivers (winxp, 7900, older games) and the iz3d stereodriver (still xp and 8800GTX, never games) and nothing i've seen comes close to this. I'm curious on what people gets for ghostingvalue on their respective displaydevices and this should also be mentioned in nvidia-3d compatible hdtv's, monitors, projectors etc for helping new customers out in their choices. It could in long term also help hardwaremanufacturers in decision of what components to use in their displays.



Peace!

Image

Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe

Cpu: C2D E6600

Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX

3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#17
Posted 03/08/2009 10:59 PM   
/thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' />
The nvidia 3d vision has serious problems
I consider this problem as highly important
because the hardware problem of 3d vision is going to cause
serious eye problem, and headaches to many gamers
one of the problem is ghosting and second is when changing distance view in game
the focus gets off, even if I use the convergence to adjust and save it
In common sense, when you play game the distance view changes frequently and every time gamers get focus problem caused by ghosting.
I strongly believe that this is cause by hardware problem and
I think that nvidia is highly irresponsible for this problem
why did nvidia sell this product with a "major" problem.
/thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' />

The nvidia 3d vision has serious problems

I consider this problem as highly important

because the hardware problem of 3d vision is going to cause

serious eye problem, and headaches to many gamers

one of the problem is ghosting and second is when changing distance view in game

the focus gets off, even if I use the convergence to adjust and save it

In common sense, when you play game the distance view changes frequently and every time gamers get focus problem caused by ghosting.

I strongly believe that this is cause by hardware problem and

I think that nvidia is highly irresponsible for this problem

why did nvidia sell this product with a "major" problem.

i7 8700K @4.9
GTX1080Ti
Asrock Z370 Gamming K6
Windows10 64bit
LG OLED UHD 3dtv 55E6K

#18
Posted 03/09/2009 12:36 AM   
[quote name='Likay' post='515506' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:59 PM']You can never get a totally ghostingfree reproduction with shutterglasses.

Shutters never entirely blocks all the light out when they should and also let through a maximum of 45% of light when "open" (polarization in the shutters cuts the light to 45%). However you can very well reach more than satisfying results with shutters and a decent displaydevice. The huge amount of stereogamers prove that! :D[/quote]


I was going to disagree with Likay because I use shutter glasses with a projector and I consider it
to have zero ghosting but then I read Likay's post more closely and I see his point technically.
I still claim PERCEIVED zero ghosting because I really don't see any. This is with the older 3d system
though and not the new 3d-vision, but lately I've found that some games DO have bad ghosting on
the projector with the same hardware. So my point in joining this discussion is to tell you all that there
are at least three kinds of ghosting...

1) ghosting associated with the display showing some of the previous-eye's image (some CRT's and most LCD's),
2) ghosting associated with the shutterglass allowing some light through when it should be black (Likay's technical point),
3) ghosting associated with the game's programming and videocard rendering.
4) any other ides anyone?

I have problem 3 with Starwars Battlefront 1 & 2. (I assume it's the same game engine)

So if you guys want to talk about these things, try to figure out what kind of ghosting you have.
Unless it's an LCD display, my guess is that the majority is from source 3 which puts the ball in nvidia's court.
They need to fix their cards and drivers. If SW-Battlefront works with no ghosting on the 3d-vision system,
it means they did fix it. Does anyone have that game working ghost-free? Likay? I'll have to try it with 2 monitors
and see if the ghosting is still there.

update... I just tested SW-Battlefront with a two-monitor setup and the right-eye monitor has ghosting and the
left-eye monitor does not. So in this case it's definitely not the display or glasses.
It's also not the display or glasses if you can take a screenshot and see the ghosting in non-stereo mode.
I think you can just rename a JPS to a JPG and open it with some graphics program and see.
Another clue to problem 3 is if the ghosting is in only one eye.

I invite others to come up with strategies to test their system components to check where the ghosting is coming from.
Obviously if you only have ghosting in one game then it's something about the game/card/driver.

Here's an idea to test #2, wrong-eyed light leakage through the glasses:
To test the glasses you could get them flickering and look in a mirror with one eye closed. Then shine a light through
the dark one towards the mirror and see how much light gets through. I wouldn't spend my time on that though.
I'm confident the glasses are good.

Correction: I remember now that nvidia makes the chips, not the cards, so it could be the fault of the card manufacturer.

Happy complaining everyone. :)
[quote name='Likay' post='515506' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:59 PM']You can never get a totally ghostingfree reproduction with shutterglasses.



Shutters never entirely blocks all the light out when they should and also let through a maximum of 45% of light when "open" (polarization in the shutters cuts the light to 45%). However you can very well reach more than satisfying results with shutters and a decent displaydevice. The huge amount of stereogamers prove that! :D





I was going to disagree with Likay because I use shutter glasses with a projector and I consider it

to have zero ghosting but then I read Likay's post more closely and I see his point technically.

I still claim PERCEIVED zero ghosting because I really don't see any. This is with the older 3d system

though and not the new 3d-vision, but lately I've found that some games DO have bad ghosting on

the projector with the same hardware. So my point in joining this discussion is to tell you all that there

are at least three kinds of ghosting...



1) ghosting associated with the display showing some of the previous-eye's image (some CRT's and most LCD's),

2) ghosting associated with the shutterglass allowing some light through when it should be black (Likay's technical point),

3) ghosting associated with the game's programming and videocard rendering.

4) any other ides anyone?



I have problem 3 with Starwars Battlefront 1 & 2. (I assume it's the same game engine)



So if you guys want to talk about these things, try to figure out what kind of ghosting you have.

Unless it's an LCD display, my guess is that the majority is from source 3 which puts the ball in nvidia's court.

They need to fix their cards and drivers. If SW-Battlefront works with no ghosting on the 3d-vision system,

it means they did fix it. Does anyone have that game working ghost-free? Likay? I'll have to try it with 2 monitors

and see if the ghosting is still there.



update... I just tested SW-Battlefront with a two-monitor setup and the right-eye monitor has ghosting and the

left-eye monitor does not. So in this case it's definitely not the display or glasses.

It's also not the display or glasses if you can take a screenshot and see the ghosting in non-stereo mode.

I think you can just rename a JPS to a JPG and open it with some graphics program and see.

Another clue to problem 3 is if the ghosting is in only one eye.



I invite others to come up with strategies to test their system components to check where the ghosting is coming from.

Obviously if you only have ghosting in one game then it's something about the game/card/driver.



Here's an idea to test #2, wrong-eyed light leakage through the glasses:

To test the glasses you could get them flickering and look in a mirror with one eye closed. Then shine a light through

the dark one towards the mirror and see how much light gets through. I wouldn't spend my time on that though.

I'm confident the glasses are good.



Correction: I remember now that nvidia makes the chips, not the cards, so it could be the fault of the card manufacturer.



Happy complaining everyone. :)

#19
Posted 03/09/2009 01:29 AM   
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='515396' date='Mar 8 2009, 07:50 AM']I'm not entirely sure if everyone is capable of seeing these ghosting problems. Is it possible to take a .JPS screenshot and post it here so we can see the ghost while the game is "paused" so to speak?

Someone mentioned they saw some ghosting in my screenshots on this page [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853"](http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853[/url]) but I can't see them in game or with photos.

Rodonic, can you post a screenshot of your nvidia demo while ghosting is easily visable? If the same ghosting is visible to some but not others, perhaps the
1) 3D tinting of some glasses is faulty
2) The monitor is out of sync with the glasses
3) The convergence or separation is off.
4) Unlikely, but maybe it's perceptual in nature only.[/quote]
Spyder, please look at my thread at [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=findpost&pid=508250"]http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250[/url] where I've posted screenshots and let me know if you see ghosting. I would be really surprised if you don't.
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='515396' date='Mar 8 2009, 07:50 AM']I'm not entirely sure if everyone is capable of seeing these ghosting problems. Is it possible to take a .JPS screenshot and post it here so we can see the ghost while the game is "paused" so to speak?



Someone mentioned they saw some ghosting in my screenshots on this page (http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=90853) but I can't see them in game or with photos.



Rodonic, can you post a screenshot of your nvidia demo while ghosting is easily visable? If the same ghosting is visible to some but not others, perhaps the

1) 3D tinting of some glasses is faulty

2) The monitor is out of sync with the glasses

3) The convergence or separation is off.

4) Unlikely, but maybe it's perceptual in nature only.

Spyder, please look at my thread at http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250 where I've posted screenshots and let me know if you see ghosting. I would be really surprised if you don't.

#20
Posted 03/09/2009 08:34 AM   
[quote name='iondrive' post='515555' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:29 AM']I was going to disagree with Likay because I use shutter glasses with a projector and I consider it
to have zero ghosting but then I read Likay's post more closely and I see his point technically.
I still claim PERCEIVED zero ghosting because I really don't see any. This is with the older 3d system
though and not the new 3d-vision, but lately I've found that some games DO have bad ghosting on
the projector with the same hardware. So my point in joining this discussion is to tell you all that there
are at least three kinds of ghosting...

1) ghosting associated with the display showing some of the previous-eye's image (some CRT's and most LCD's),
2) ghosting associated with the shutterglass allowing some light through when it should be black (Likay's technical point),
3) ghosting associated with the game's programming and videocard rendering.
4) any other ides anyone?

I have problem 3 with Starwars Battlefront 1 & 2. (I assume it's the same game engine)

So if you guys want to talk about these things, try to figure out what kind of ghosting you have.
Unless it's an LCD display, my guess is that the majority is from source 3 which puts the ball in nvidia's court.
They need to fix their cards and drivers. If SW-Battlefront works with no ghosting on the 3d-vision system,
it means they did fix it. Does anyone have that game working ghost-free? Likay? I'll have to try it with 2 monitors
and see if the ghosting is still there.[/quote]

Of course i mean that the percieved ghosting is the one that matters!
The ghostingtest above is really good to find out a value for whole systems (if you aint got a too crappy imageviewer the image should be shown correctly without softwarebased distortion).

Unfortunately i don't have swbf but i do have this phenomena (or similar anomalies which ARE softwarebased) in other games. However the passive rig itself is a ghostfree experience. :)
Until gamedevelopers take 3d in consideration when making their game engines we probably have to live with some anomalies. Most of them can today be corrected with the stereodriver but sometimes requires an awful lot of effort from the one who makes the stereodriver. If it would be right from the beginning, then more or less every stereodriver for games would work great without mods and a minimum of profiling! Maybe in a soon future this could be included in a standard? :)

Cheers!
[quote name='iondrive' post='515555' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:29 AM']I was going to disagree with Likay because I use shutter glasses with a projector and I consider it

to have zero ghosting but then I read Likay's post more closely and I see his point technically.

I still claim PERCEIVED zero ghosting because I really don't see any. This is with the older 3d system

though and not the new 3d-vision, but lately I've found that some games DO have bad ghosting on

the projector with the same hardware. So my point in joining this discussion is to tell you all that there

are at least three kinds of ghosting...



1) ghosting associated with the display showing some of the previous-eye's image (some CRT's and most LCD's),

2) ghosting associated with the shutterglass allowing some light through when it should be black (Likay's technical point),

3) ghosting associated with the game's programming and videocard rendering.

4) any other ides anyone?



I have problem 3 with Starwars Battlefront 1 & 2. (I assume it's the same game engine)



So if you guys want to talk about these things, try to figure out what kind of ghosting you have.

Unless it's an LCD display, my guess is that the majority is from source 3 which puts the ball in nvidia's court.

They need to fix their cards and drivers. If SW-Battlefront works with no ghosting on the 3d-vision system,

it means they did fix it. Does anyone have that game working ghost-free? Likay? I'll have to try it with 2 monitors

and see if the ghosting is still there.



Of course i mean that the percieved ghosting is the one that matters!

The ghostingtest above is really good to find out a value for whole systems (if you aint got a too crappy imageviewer the image should be shown correctly without softwarebased distortion).



Unfortunately i don't have swbf but i do have this phenomena (or similar anomalies which ARE softwarebased) in other games. However the passive rig itself is a ghostfree experience. :)

Until gamedevelopers take 3d in consideration when making their game engines we probably have to live with some anomalies. Most of them can today be corrected with the stereodriver but sometimes requires an awful lot of effort from the one who makes the stereodriver. If it would be right from the beginning, then more or less every stereodriver for games would work great without mods and a minimum of profiling! Maybe in a soon future this could be included in a standard? :)



Cheers!

Image

Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe

Cpu: C2D E6600

Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX

3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#21
Posted 03/10/2009 01:03 PM   
I use the 3D Vision / Samsung LCD bundle and do notice ghosting in every game I've played, but have learned to ignore it, sort of like filtering out the film grain or loud kids in movie at the theater. The ghosting seems to be the nature of the technology. I'm not sure whether it's created by the monitor or the glasses (I know the glasses don't achieve 100% opacity when active), but I will say the ghosting is a lot less than it was with my old eDimensional shutters and Viewsonic Ultrabrite CRT.

I mainly play World of Warcraft with my 3D rig and play all games on full depth/separation (which makes ghosting more noticable). The ghosting is most noticeable in high contrast situations in the upper part of the screen. Mountains against the sky, the sun, it all ghosts. Areas with complex textures, such as ground textures seem to make the ghosting less noticable.

I haven't found a way to reduce ghosting other than getting used to it. The first few days of playing with this solution were kind of a mental learning curve. Heck, the first day, my eyes felt strained from the full depth setting, but over time my brain got used to it. I've been playing with this setup for about three weeks now every other day or so, each session lasting anywhere from two to five hours. At this point, I don't really notice the ghosting anymore. It's certainly still there, but my brain is used to it and seems to filter it out, making it much less distracting than it was at first.

By the way, playing with the following drivers: GeForce 182.06 WHQL / 3D Vision v182.07 BETA.
I use the 3D Vision / Samsung LCD bundle and do notice ghosting in every game I've played, but have learned to ignore it, sort of like filtering out the film grain or loud kids in movie at the theater. The ghosting seems to be the nature of the technology. I'm not sure whether it's created by the monitor or the glasses (I know the glasses don't achieve 100% opacity when active), but I will say the ghosting is a lot less than it was with my old eDimensional shutters and Viewsonic Ultrabrite CRT.



I mainly play World of Warcraft with my 3D rig and play all games on full depth/separation (which makes ghosting more noticable). The ghosting is most noticeable in high contrast situations in the upper part of the screen. Mountains against the sky, the sun, it all ghosts. Areas with complex textures, such as ground textures seem to make the ghosting less noticable.



I haven't found a way to reduce ghosting other than getting used to it. The first few days of playing with this solution were kind of a mental learning curve. Heck, the first day, my eyes felt strained from the full depth setting, but over time my brain got used to it. I've been playing with this setup for about three weeks now every other day or so, each session lasting anywhere from two to five hours. At this point, I don't really notice the ghosting anymore. It's certainly still there, but my brain is used to it and seems to filter it out, making it much less distracting than it was at first.



By the way, playing with the following drivers: GeForce 182.06 WHQL / 3D Vision v182.07 BETA.

#22
Posted 03/10/2009 08:11 PM   
[quote name='Likay' post='516273' date='Mar 10 2009, 07:03 AM']The ghosting test above is really good to find out a value for whole systems (if you aint got a too crappy imageviewer the image should be shown correctly without softwarebased distortion).[/quote]

Yes, that looks like a good test and thanks to Freke1 for pointing to it. I will try it some time and let you
know how wrong I am. It's probably not zero, I just thought it was. It must be the games having a good
texture and masking the ghosting. That can help alot. Low contrast scenes also help of course.

Starwars Battlefront update:
The iZ3D driver does not have the ghosting problem nvidia's drivers have on my 8800GTS in winXP.
(Thanks Likay for another thread about the 8800 and Tombraider Underworld --- beautiful)
Also iZ3D does a better job at fixing the HUD in some (many?) games.
If iZ3D can do it, how come nvidia can't/doesn't.
The iZ3D driver's not perfect though because if I fix the targeting reticle, then the sky is at the wrong
depth and if I fix the sky then the reticle is at the wrong depth. It's as if the sky has it's own parallax
multiplier value. Also, the iZ3D lasersight is at screen-depth in this game even though it's supposed to
be auto-ranging so no help there either. Maybe their next driver will be better. Anyway, end of sidetrack.

Tombraider Underworld note:
It's not a ghosting problem but could be mistaken for one by a newbie. For me, if I turn off antialiasing,
I get a silouette of Lara in the location where the other eye sees her. Turn on antialiasing to 4x to fix this.

Ghosting should only happen on Halloween /bloated.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':X' />
Happy gaming all.
[quote name='Likay' post='516273' date='Mar 10 2009, 07:03 AM']The ghosting test above is really good to find out a value for whole systems (if you aint got a too crappy imageviewer the image should be shown correctly without softwarebased distortion).



Yes, that looks like a good test and thanks to Freke1 for pointing to it. I will try it some time and let you

know how wrong I am. It's probably not zero, I just thought it was. It must be the games having a good

texture and masking the ghosting. That can help alot. Low contrast scenes also help of course.



Starwars Battlefront update:

The iZ3D driver does not have the ghosting problem nvidia's drivers have on my 8800GTS in winXP.

(Thanks Likay for another thread about the 8800 and Tombraider Underworld --- beautiful)

Also iZ3D does a better job at fixing the HUD in some (many?) games.

If iZ3D can do it, how come nvidia can't/doesn't.

The iZ3D driver's not perfect though because if I fix the targeting reticle, then the sky is at the wrong

depth and if I fix the sky then the reticle is at the wrong depth. It's as if the sky has it's own parallax

multiplier value. Also, the iZ3D lasersight is at screen-depth in this game even though it's supposed to

be auto-ranging so no help there either. Maybe their next driver will be better. Anyway, end of sidetrack.



Tombraider Underworld note:

It's not a ghosting problem but could be mistaken for one by a newbie. For me, if I turn off antialiasing,

I get a silouette of Lara in the location where the other eye sees her. Turn on antialiasing to 4x to fix this.



Ghosting should only happen on Halloween /bloated.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':X' />

Happy gaming all.

#23
Posted 03/12/2009 09:05 AM   
I'm not bashing shutters in any way. I'm more curious on when the ghosting generarly is starting to be noticeable. Shutters cannot be ghostingfree but gives great results. Passive projection can also never be ghostingfree but have a great ghostingrejection as well.

This is what i managed to snap up during some time. I'm not having any kind of "total knowledge" on this though.
Iz3d modifies directx calls (before the displaydriver) to make 3d. Nvidia programs 3d-routines in their driver without touching directx.
This might actually give iz3d the advantage that they can fix such things like huds and other elements by recognizing shader elements. Wrong shadows and "skybox" at wrong depth is something that you sometimes have to live with before next revision fixes the issues. Punkbuster detects the iz3d driver as a cheat because of the way it works (modifying directx calls) and so far makes gaming in 3d on pb-servers impossible. I hope they'll find a solution for this though. :D
Shutterglasses support seems difficult as well with this method because of the lag between actual dxcalls until the specific image actually is drawn. However with all other stereooutputs it rules!

Nvidia seems to have advantages with shadowgeneration as well as the skybox (obviously because of the final result). On the other hand postprocessing effects (at least ol-shool nvidiastereo) can really messing things up in 3d (not easy but easier to fix the iz3d way).
Since stereo is generated within the displaydriver punkbuster will not recognize 3d as a cheat and therefore playing on punkbuster servers are possible in 3d with nvidiadrivers. Shutters works great with nvidia because they of course have low level access to their own gpu's.

Both drivers are excellent and both has their flaws as well as pros. In the end quality-3d depends mostly on how gamedevelopers codes gameengines (to avoid timeconsuming corrections).
Lately nvidia 3d-vision has been drawing a lot of attention to true-3d, thus catching a lot of new people into 3d and this is in my opinion one of the best things that have happened these days! The timing could be better though.
I'm not bashing shutters in any way. I'm more curious on when the ghosting generarly is starting to be noticeable. Shutters cannot be ghostingfree but gives great results. Passive projection can also never be ghostingfree but have a great ghostingrejection as well.



This is what i managed to snap up during some time. I'm not having any kind of "total knowledge" on this though.

Iz3d modifies directx calls (before the displaydriver) to make 3d. Nvidia programs 3d-routines in their driver without touching directx.

This might actually give iz3d the advantage that they can fix such things like huds and other elements by recognizing shader elements. Wrong shadows and "skybox" at wrong depth is something that you sometimes have to live with before next revision fixes the issues. Punkbuster detects the iz3d driver as a cheat because of the way it works (modifying directx calls) and so far makes gaming in 3d on pb-servers impossible. I hope they'll find a solution for this though. :D

Shutterglasses support seems difficult as well with this method because of the lag between actual dxcalls until the specific image actually is drawn. However with all other stereooutputs it rules!



Nvidia seems to have advantages with shadowgeneration as well as the skybox (obviously because of the final result). On the other hand postprocessing effects (at least ol-shool nvidiastereo) can really messing things up in 3d (not easy but easier to fix the iz3d way).

Since stereo is generated within the displaydriver punkbuster will not recognize 3d as a cheat and therefore playing on punkbuster servers are possible in 3d with nvidiadrivers. Shutters works great with nvidia because they of course have low level access to their own gpu's.



Both drivers are excellent and both has their flaws as well as pros. In the end quality-3d depends mostly on how gamedevelopers codes gameengines (to avoid timeconsuming corrections).

Lately nvidia 3d-vision has been drawing a lot of attention to true-3d, thus catching a lot of new people into 3d and this is in my opinion one of the best things that have happened these days! The timing could be better though.

Image

Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe

Cpu: C2D E6600

Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX

3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#24
Posted 03/12/2009 05:52 PM   
Ghosting isn't as subjective as other S3D anomalies such as post processing errors. Yes, you can get used to "ignoring" ghosting but it is always there regardless of the user. Once you see a ghost free image though you just can't go back to even minor ghosting without feeling like you have lost something. All of these ghosting issues must be hardware/software related as it just isn't possible for one person to not see any ghosting at all while others have very bad ghosting artifacts.
Ghosting isn't as subjective as other S3D anomalies such as post processing errors. Yes, you can get used to "ignoring" ghosting but it is always there regardless of the user. Once you see a ghost free image though you just can't go back to even minor ghosting without feeling like you have lost something. All of these ghosting issues must be hardware/software related as it just isn't possible for one person to not see any ghosting at all while others have very bad ghosting artifacts.

#25
Posted 03/13/2009 02:31 AM   
OK, so I finally did the ghosting test on my projector and I was very impressed.

The bottom half of the screen tests black ghosting and it was always zero in
all the modes I tested.

The top half tests white ghosting and it too was zero unless I tilted my head
around some and then I could start to see something so I guess I'll call it 1%
because it's still less than the 5% reference color and barely visible. It's as if
the glasses have a little bit of a sweet spot. I know this seems unbelievable so
I started to try some things. I walked up close to the wall. I started tweaking the
projector settings. I boosted contrast to 100%, moved brightness up and down
and still got the same results. Amazing! I changed the color temperature settings
and modes: Cinema, Brightest, Presentation, Photo. It all still looked great. Then
I had another idea. I started trying other frequencies and discovered something.
I used to have a color difference in each eye in the past but that went away for
some reason. It turns out that it's the frequency that changes that. I normally
play at 60Hz and things look great, but when I switch to either 70 or 85 Hz,
it screws up the color a little. It's ignorable but it's nice to know what causes it.
Now I still have zero black ghosting but between 5 and 10% white ghosting
except the ghosting that is supposed to be white is now red.

Here's the testing data:
winXP with a 7800GTX at 800x600x32bit and 60, 70, and 85 Hz.
Old style E-D wired shutter glasses (tried 2 different pairs with the same results).
Analog VGA input to ViewSonic PJ503D DLP Projector.

I forgot to test other resolutions and bit depths and I don't think it's necessary.

Of course the key is the projector. Got it from ebay and it was the best $330
I ever spent, until the bulb burns out. /fear.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':fear:' />
Looks like I just got lucky when I decided to try it.

Likay, just curious. Do you have one of your projectors set up so that you can
slide it left or right. This would give you an extra convergence control for when
you use nvidia drivers. I believe iZ3D's convergence control simulates that but
I think nvidia's convergence is different. I think it rotates the virtual eyes in/out
and that changes the image content, it doesn't just slide it left or right.

By the way, black ghosting on my CRT monitor was 5% and white was 25%.

Later.
OK, so I finally did the ghosting test on my projector and I was very impressed.



The bottom half of the screen tests black ghosting and it was always zero in

all the modes I tested.



The top half tests white ghosting and it too was zero unless I tilted my head

around some and then I could start to see something so I guess I'll call it 1%

because it's still less than the 5% reference color and barely visible. It's as if

the glasses have a little bit of a sweet spot. I know this seems unbelievable so

I started to try some things. I walked up close to the wall. I started tweaking the

projector settings. I boosted contrast to 100%, moved brightness up and down

and still got the same results. Amazing! I changed the color temperature settings

and modes: Cinema, Brightest, Presentation, Photo. It all still looked great. Then

I had another idea. I started trying other frequencies and discovered something.

I used to have a color difference in each eye in the past but that went away for

some reason. It turns out that it's the frequency that changes that. I normally

play at 60Hz and things look great, but when I switch to either 70 or 85 Hz,

it screws up the color a little. It's ignorable but it's nice to know what causes it.

Now I still have zero black ghosting but between 5 and 10% white ghosting

except the ghosting that is supposed to be white is now red.



Here's the testing data:

winXP with a 7800GTX at 800x600x32bit and 60, 70, and 85 Hz.

Old style E-D wired shutter glasses (tried 2 different pairs with the same results).

Analog VGA input to ViewSonic PJ503D DLP Projector.



I forgot to test other resolutions and bit depths and I don't think it's necessary.



Of course the key is the projector. Got it from ebay and it was the best $330

I ever spent, until the bulb burns out. /fear.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':fear:' />

Looks like I just got lucky when I decided to try it.



Likay, just curious. Do you have one of your projectors set up so that you can

slide it left or right. This would give you an extra convergence control for when

you use nvidia drivers. I believe iZ3D's convergence control simulates that but

I think nvidia's convergence is different. I think it rotates the virtual eyes in/out

and that changes the image content, it doesn't just slide it left or right.



By the way, black ghosting on my CRT monitor was 5% and white was 25%.



Later.

#26
Posted 03/13/2009 01:31 PM   
I am pretty sure I can find ghosting in just about every game i play if i try hard enough. As someone said in a post I think your mind shuts it out for the most part unless it is severe. Usually a dark object against a light one like in Mirrors edge , buildings against the sky.

I have two theories as to why ghosting may be more noticeable for some than others. just throwing them out for debate.

1) People who wear glasses have a higher tolerance for ghosting because they are accustomed to seeing reflections in their vision all the time and pretty much tune them out. Yeah finally an advantage for us four eyes !

2) Convergence settings can have a significant effect on ghosting as perceived. Call of Duty World at War for example i was starting to see too much ghosting at the normal settings I use where half the scene is in the screen and half out. Distant objects against the sky and mist were ghosting pretty bad. I adjusted the convergence to where all the objects were in front of the screen. i.e. distant objects had no separation; close objects had separation. Ghosting was minimized because there were no distant objects offset against the sky anymore and the game looks great. This did not remove ghosting but it certainly minimized it and made it a non issue in this game. I did the same with mirrors edge.

p.s for those asking questions about eye strain I sometimes think my eyes are more comfortable with the all objects in front of screen mode. After all, that is the way we see in real world.
I am pretty sure I can find ghosting in just about every game i play if i try hard enough. As someone said in a post I think your mind shuts it out for the most part unless it is severe. Usually a dark object against a light one like in Mirrors edge , buildings against the sky.



I have two theories as to why ghosting may be more noticeable for some than others. just throwing them out for debate.



1) People who wear glasses have a higher tolerance for ghosting because they are accustomed to seeing reflections in their vision all the time and pretty much tune them out. Yeah finally an advantage for us four eyes !



2) Convergence settings can have a significant effect on ghosting as perceived. Call of Duty World at War for example i was starting to see too much ghosting at the normal settings I use where half the scene is in the screen and half out. Distant objects against the sky and mist were ghosting pretty bad. I adjusted the convergence to where all the objects were in front of the screen. i.e. distant objects had no separation; close objects had separation. Ghosting was minimized because there were no distant objects offset against the sky anymore and the game looks great. This did not remove ghosting but it certainly minimized it and made it a non issue in this game. I did the same with mirrors edge.



p.s for those asking questions about eye strain I sometimes think my eyes are more comfortable with the all objects in front of screen mode. After all, that is the way we see in real world.

#27
Posted 03/13/2009 03:54 PM   
[quote name='iondrive' post='517782' date='Mar 13 2009, 07:31 AM']it too was zero unless I tilted my head[/quote]

I noticed that tilting my head left or right was the only was I can see ghosting.

The manual recommends precise frequencies for different types of lighting. That's pretty sensitive. All these flickering and ghosting problems people have could easily be caused by slight settings like this.
[quote name='iondrive' post='517782' date='Mar 13 2009, 07:31 AM']it too was zero unless I tilted my head



I noticed that tilting my head left or right was the only was I can see ghosting.



The manual recommends precise frequencies for different types of lighting. That's pretty sensitive. All these flickering and ghosting problems people have could easily be caused by slight settings like this.

1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard

2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)

1x EVGA GTX480

8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)

2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)

4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)

1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro

1x BD-ROM

1x DVD-RW

1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply

1x Dell 30" 2560x1600 LCD

1x Samsung 22" 120hz GeForce 3D Vision Display

1x APC 1500VAC SmartUPS Battery Backup

1x Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit

#28
Posted 03/13/2009 03:58 PM   
Stilling my curiosity Iondrive! Thanks! And interesting notes from you others as well. :)
The figures you have are not unexpected and you shouldn't notice any visible ghosting since i don't either! The ghosting values i have is in a passive rig are a bit "worse" (15% "white" and 0% "black" ghosting) but still doesn't give any visible ghosting. I do think that about 15%-20% is the limit where it starts to be visible because very bright lights in a complete coal dark surrounding i do see doubling if i look for it. The figures for being annoying ghosting is quite higher though.

Color tints with the refreshfrequencies is probably your dlp but in regards of cost and the effect you're given the rig is super!. :D
The phenomena with different ghosting when you're tilt the glasses is strange though! :blink: Either there are some degree of polarization from your beamer or maybe the e-d's works different if you tilt them. /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />

The projectorholder i have is simple but i can align the projectors easily in all directions. A passive projection rig needs some trimming to be perfect. I don't use this way to aligne the images horisontally the "mechanical" way because i can do it in the nvidia driver.
Note: When checking where i had these settings i found out that the version 169.21 doesn't seem to support this with 8800. Know for sure such settings exists in other drivers though.
The only practical "use" i had for this was when viewing movies to achieve a "picture behind the screen" effect. Of course this didn't make the movie 3d but it gave a cool cinemalike experince since the image of the screen looked like it was 10 meters away. :D Adjusting it to "popout" was of course possible but not close to the depth experience. Just a little fun thing but now i use single projector for 2d-viewing.

I'm still running the old school nvidia occasionally when running the goldmine there is with older games. I use the feature where you can adjust screen size within the driver. It looks like the best and least "eyestraining" experince is using 30" selection even if the screen itself is 100". Then there's a great balance between popout/depth by simply adjusting separation/convergence to comfortable levels. I think this might have to do with the viewers distance to the screen as well. Haven't got any need to slide one of the projectors slightly to achieve better 3d-results but i believe it might give better and more natural results with some games.
Stilling my curiosity Iondrive! Thanks! And interesting notes from you others as well. :)

The figures you have are not unexpected and you shouldn't notice any visible ghosting since i don't either! The ghosting values i have is in a passive rig are a bit "worse" (15% "white" and 0% "black" ghosting) but still doesn't give any visible ghosting. I do think that about 15%-20% is the limit where it starts to be visible because very bright lights in a complete coal dark surrounding i do see doubling if i look for it. The figures for being annoying ghosting is quite higher though.



Color tints with the refreshfrequencies is probably your dlp but in regards of cost and the effect you're given the rig is super!. :D

The phenomena with different ghosting when you're tilt the glasses is strange though! :blink: Either there are some degree of polarization from your beamer or maybe the e-d's works different if you tilt them. /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />



The projectorholder i have is simple but i can align the projectors easily in all directions. A passive projection rig needs some trimming to be perfect. I don't use this way to aligne the images horisontally the "mechanical" way because i can do it in the nvidia driver.

Note: When checking where i had these settings i found out that the version 169.21 doesn't seem to support this with 8800. Know for sure such settings exists in other drivers though.

The only practical "use" i had for this was when viewing movies to achieve a "picture behind the screen" effect. Of course this didn't make the movie 3d but it gave a cool cinemalike experince since the image of the screen looked like it was 10 meters away. :D Adjusting it to "popout" was of course possible but not close to the depth experience. Just a little fun thing but now i use single projector for 2d-viewing.



I'm still running the old school nvidia occasionally when running the goldmine there is with older games. I use the feature where you can adjust screen size within the driver. It looks like the best and least "eyestraining" experince is using 30" selection even if the screen itself is 100". Then there's a great balance between popout/depth by simply adjusting separation/convergence to comfortable levels. I think this might have to do with the viewers distance to the screen as well. Haven't got any need to slide one of the projectors slightly to achieve better 3d-results but i believe it might give better and more natural results with some games.

Image

Mb: Asus P5W DH Deluxe

Cpu: C2D E6600

Gb: Nvidia 7900GT + 8800GTX

3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#29
Posted 03/13/2009 11:58 PM   
OK, I know this is a thread about ghosting but let me digress once more.


Subject: using mechanical adjustment in a 2-projector system to fix a screen-depth reticle:

Likay, the use I would have for the mechanical convergence control would be in games with a targetting reticle stuck at screen-depth and a non-working nvidia lasersight. I would increase convergence alot to pull the 3d environment out of the screen, then the screen-depth game-reticle would be inside the game environment but the 3d would not look good if you used alot of separation so I would then slide a projector sideways to push most of the scene back into the projection wall and viola, a 3d targetting reticle from a 2d one since you have two projectors. Of course it would be non-ranging but still better than one at screen-depth in front of your nose. I use this technique with some games using a medium separation and standing far away from the screen except I just have to get used to all the pop-out since I use only one projector. It's not too bad and still enjoyable but I would like it better if I could push the whole scene back.
Note that this has the side-effect of pushing back the rest of the OSD too but usually you can get used to it.


Subject: explanation of old screen-depth and backplane controls to change your on-screen-data (health, ammo, maps/radar) from 3d to 2d.

I wonder if you're thinking of the screen-depth control in the older drivers. That's a little different. That's not in the newer drivers but you can still find registry settings for the controls though. Its RHWGreaterAtScreenLess and RHWGreaterAtScreenMore. Confusing names, eh? RHWLessAtScreenLess and RHWLessAtScreenMore controls the backplane. The screen-depth controls the front-plane. For anyone who doesn't know what these do, they help fix the on-screen-data by forcing them to be in 2D if they happen to be in 3d like in so many games, but I don't think you should waste your time trying to use them because they generally only work when HW-TnL is off and if you force off HW-TnL, your game probably won't work right because it seems they depend on it being on alot. If anyone wants to see it work in the nvidia 3d logo test, I can tell them the settings they need. Basically there are two vertical imaginary planes that are parallel to your screen, a frontplane and a backplane. They can be moved towards you or away and the objects between them are in S3D and all else is in 2d at screen-depth (SD). So you can adjust the backplane so that the sun is at SD and looks terrible and you can adjust the front-plane so that, in a 3rd-person-view race-car game, the front of your car can be 3d and the back in 2d. Of course you wouldn't want that but it just shows the function of the plane. It was handy when it worked in older games to snap the OSD from 3d to 2d. It still affects your nvidia lasersight with HW-TnL on or off though so it might be able to be used to fix it if it's acting weird in some game. Anyway, thanks for your response Likay and happy gaming.


One more point. If you have an old game that has a bad 3d in-game reticle, you might be able to use the previous 2 things together to first make the reticle 2d at screen-depth, then pull the scene out of the screen to make it usable. Yes we go to great lengths to find and use workarounds to play these games.

Another thought, I'm going to suggest to iZ3D that they make a null output driver. It would put the OSD at SD and do nothing else, then you could use the nvidia S3D driver and have S3D with a good OSD by using both drivers together. Yikes, crazy stuff here.


I apologize for the non-ghosting post in a ghosting thread.
OK, I know this is a thread about ghosting but let me digress once more.





Subject: using mechanical adjustment in a 2-projector system to fix a screen-depth reticle:



Likay, the use I would have for the mechanical convergence control would be in games with a targetting reticle stuck at screen-depth and a non-working nvidia lasersight. I would increase convergence alot to pull the 3d environment out of the screen, then the screen-depth game-reticle would be inside the game environment but the 3d would not look good if you used alot of separation so I would then slide a projector sideways to push most of the scene back into the projection wall and viola, a 3d targetting reticle from a 2d one since you have two projectors. Of course it would be non-ranging but still better than one at screen-depth in front of your nose. I use this technique with some games using a medium separation and standing far away from the screen except I just have to get used to all the pop-out since I use only one projector. It's not too bad and still enjoyable but I would like it better if I could push the whole scene back.

Note that this has the side-effect of pushing back the rest of the OSD too but usually you can get used to it.





Subject: explanation of old screen-depth and backplane controls to change your on-screen-data (health, ammo, maps/radar) from 3d to 2d.



I wonder if you're thinking of the screen-depth control in the older drivers. That's a little different. That's not in the newer drivers but you can still find registry settings for the controls though. Its RHWGreaterAtScreenLess and RHWGreaterAtScreenMore. Confusing names, eh? RHWLessAtScreenLess and RHWLessAtScreenMore controls the backplane. The screen-depth controls the front-plane. For anyone who doesn't know what these do, they help fix the on-screen-data by forcing them to be in 2D if they happen to be in 3d like in so many games, but I don't think you should waste your time trying to use them because they generally only work when HW-TnL is off and if you force off HW-TnL, your game probably won't work right because it seems they depend on it being on alot. If anyone wants to see it work in the nvidia 3d logo test, I can tell them the settings they need. Basically there are two vertical imaginary planes that are parallel to your screen, a frontplane and a backplane. They can be moved towards you or away and the objects between them are in S3D and all else is in 2d at screen-depth (SD). So you can adjust the backplane so that the sun is at SD and looks terrible and you can adjust the front-plane so that, in a 3rd-person-view race-car game, the front of your car can be 3d and the back in 2d. Of course you wouldn't want that but it just shows the function of the plane. It was handy when it worked in older games to snap the OSD from 3d to 2d. It still affects your nvidia lasersight with HW-TnL on or off though so it might be able to be used to fix it if it's acting weird in some game. Anyway, thanks for your response Likay and happy gaming.





One more point. If you have an old game that has a bad 3d in-game reticle, you might be able to use the previous 2 things together to first make the reticle 2d at screen-depth, then pull the scene out of the screen to make it usable. Yes we go to great lengths to find and use workarounds to play these games.



Another thought, I'm going to suggest to iZ3D that they make a null output driver. It would put the OSD at SD and do nothing else, then you could use the nvidia S3D driver and have S3D with a good OSD by using both drivers together. Yikes, crazy stuff here.





I apologize for the non-ghosting post in a ghosting thread.

#30
Posted 03/14/2009 04:20 AM   
  2 / 5    
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