Dolby Atmos
  6 / 10    
[quote="GibsonRed"]Please read the link this time, it was obviously not read before, and you'll see the support games have.[/quote] Right, I read it, you obviously did not. He's using a Creative Labs X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty PCI-E card and in his list you can clearly see that full functioning surround does not work at all times. Also you can see a number of times where Alchemy kicked in to reprocess/convert the audio. Plus the sound card he's using "supports" Creative's proprietary audio technolgy that was used in a lot of older games. You talk about the CPU doing all of the sound now in modern games, yet you link this sound card article?
GibsonRed said:Please read the link this time, it was obviously not read before, and you'll see the support games have.


Right, I read it, you obviously did not.

He's using a Creative Labs X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty PCI-E card and in his list you can clearly see that full functioning surround does not work at all times. Also you can see a number of times where Alchemy kicked in to reprocess/convert the audio. Plus the sound card he's using "supports" Creative's proprietary audio technolgy that was used in a lot of older games.

You talk about the CPU doing all of the sound now in modern games, yet you link this sound card article?

#76
Posted 05/09/2016 02:45 PM   
I've done wasting my breath. You're trying to save face but I would put the spade down if I were you as what you say is incorrect.
I've done wasting my breath.
You're trying to save face but I would put the spade down if I were you as what you say is incorrect.

#77
Posted 05/09/2016 03:26 PM   
I don't understand? Enlighten me, instead of throwing your typical insults.
I don't understand?

Enlighten me, instead of throwing your typical insults.

#78
Posted 05/09/2016 03:32 PM   
This is all from the article/what I've already said but.... When windows went from XP to vista it changed the way audio was handled. Windows removed the Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) for DirectSound and DirectSound3D. The HAL is the layer found on earlier Windows Operating Systems that enabled an audio accelerator such as the Sound Blaster to provide DirectSound3D applications with hardware-accelerated audio. Alchemy was used to enable proper audio functionality in operating systems after XP with these old games. Vista came out in 2006, hence why I said to DHR, if you only want to play games that have been made in the last 10 years, you'll be fine using the surround sound analogue outs of any soundcard. EAX, DTS Connect and dolby digital live etc died with vista. Creative labs soundcards were made redundant with vista and they have been fooling their customers into buying these cards through marketing lingo and smoke and mirrors to make their tech still seem relevant. Which it isn't anymore, unless you play games that are 10 or more years older and want surround sound. DHR hasn't got audio over HDMI with his amp/receiver. It must have surround analogue ins, i'd put money on it. This is his best option. He'll be able to watch films in a higher quality. He can get powerDVD or equivalent software to decode DTS-MA and Dolby True HD to analogue and won't be bandwidth limited by his SPDIF connection. His games will work in full fat surround sound fine using this method. I don't even know what you are arguing about exactly? What is your point? That you need a creative lab sound card to play games in surround sound? I have an RME fireface soundcard. This supports no formats for films or games whatsoever. It's a pro audio interface and I've been watching films in Dolby True HD and DTS-MA and playing games in 7.1 for years. Also, I didn't throw any insults at you. Most, if not all, games in the last 10 years have had true surround support over analogue. Not fake surround, real surround. It is calculated on the CPU and DSP is not required. AMD tried trueaudio with the latest thief game which used hardware but it didn't really take off. Nvidia are using their new headphone tech for VR which is intriguing but I doubt many developers will use it. Fact is CPU's got faster and DSP for sound wasn't needed anymore.
This is all from the article/what I've already said but....

When windows went from XP to vista it changed the way audio was handled.
Windows removed the Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) for DirectSound and DirectSound3D. The HAL is the layer found on earlier Windows Operating Systems that enabled an audio accelerator such as the Sound Blaster to provide DirectSound3D applications with hardware-accelerated audio.
Alchemy was used to enable proper audio functionality in operating systems after XP with these old games.
Vista came out in 2006, hence why I said to DHR, if you only want to play games that have been made in the last 10 years, you'll be fine using the surround sound analogue outs of any soundcard.

EAX, DTS Connect and dolby digital live etc died with vista. Creative labs soundcards were made redundant with vista and they have been fooling their customers into buying these cards through marketing lingo and smoke and mirrors to make their tech still seem relevant. Which it isn't anymore, unless you play games that are 10 or more years older and want surround sound.

DHR hasn't got audio over HDMI with his amp/receiver. It must have surround analogue ins, i'd put money on it. This is his best option.
He'll be able to watch films in a higher quality. He can get powerDVD or equivalent software to decode DTS-MA and Dolby True HD to analogue and won't be bandwidth limited by his SPDIF connection.
His games will work in full fat surround sound fine using this method.

I don't even know what you are arguing about exactly? What is your point?
That you need a creative lab sound card to play games in surround sound?

I have an RME fireface soundcard. This supports no formats for films or games whatsoever. It's a pro audio interface and I've been watching films in Dolby True HD and DTS-MA and playing games in 7.1 for years.

Also, I didn't throw any insults at you.


Most, if not all, games in the last 10 years have had true surround support over analogue. Not fake surround, real surround. It is calculated on the CPU and DSP is not required.

AMD tried trueaudio with the latest thief game which used hardware but it didn't really take off.
Nvidia are using their new headphone tech for VR which is intriguing but I doubt many developers will use it.

Fact is CPU's got faster and DSP for sound wasn't needed anymore.

#79
Posted 05/09/2016 08:01 PM   
Don't really know about analog outs but every motherboard I have had, were producing much worst quality audio than directly from hdmi,p.
Don't really know about analog outs but every motherboard I have had, were producing much worst quality audio than directly from hdmi,p.

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#80
Posted 05/10/2016 08:19 AM   
That depends on how shit your on board sound is and how good the DAC's are in your amp. Fact is you can do it and it'll work. This is the best option for DHR as he doesn't have audio over HDMI. Sounds like he need to RTFM and wire it up how I've said.
That depends on how shit your on board sound is and how good the DAC's are in your amp.
Fact is you can do it and it'll work.
This is the best option for DHR as he doesn't have audio over HDMI.
Sounds like he need to RTFM and wire it up how I've said.

#81
Posted 05/10/2016 11:17 AM   
Yesterday i found 2 RCA/jack cables so i connect the PC to the Receiver through jacks (PC out) --> RCA (Receiver In) and configure a quadrofonic sound (because i found only 2 cables) and works.....now i need to buy another cable for Center/SR for the 5.1 I don't like to connect that way because there are too many cables (with my nanny and my kids this is a high risk - the PC is at floor level), but i suppose if i want 5.1 sound in gaming this is my only choice atm. Maybe is time to upgrade my receiver :( , it's an old one but the sound is fantastic and very clear.
Yesterday i found 2 RCA/jack cables so i connect the PC to the Receiver through jacks (PC out) --> RCA (Receiver In) and configure a quadrofonic sound (because i found only 2 cables) and works.....now i need to buy another cable for Center/SR for the 5.1

I don't like to connect that way because there are too many cables (with my nanny and my kids this is a high risk - the PC is at floor level), but i suppose if i want 5.1 sound in gaming this is my only choice atm.

Maybe is time to upgrade my receiver :( , it's an old one but the sound is fantastic and very clear.

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#82
Posted 05/10/2016 01:34 PM   
So how is is that the CPU is doing all the work as you say, I'm still not understanding. Which Manufacturer's GPU do you have? [s]If you are using analog cables, wouldn't those be routed off of the sound card, whether it's integrated in the motherboard or discrete?[/s] NVM So the RME fireface soundcard is a $1500 USB connected passthrough device? edit: that sound worse, than I meant it. I can't understand how this will work for Dolby and DTS if it doesn't decode and your amps do not. edit: nvm, you said the PowerDVD is handling it for movies. So what is handling your surround out from video games?
So how is is that the CPU is doing all the work as you say, I'm still not understanding.

Which Manufacturer's GPU do you have?

If you are using analog cables, wouldn't those be routed off of the sound card, whether it's integrated in the motherboard or discrete? NVM

So the RME fireface soundcard is a $1500 USB connected passthrough device?

edit: that sound worse, than I meant it. I can't understand how this will work for Dolby and DTS if it doesn't decode and your amps do not. edit: nvm, you said the PowerDVD is handling it for movies. So what is handling your surround out from video games?

#83
Posted 05/10/2016 02:25 PM   
D-Man11.....connecting with jacks/RCA to the receiver send PCM sound, no DTS or Dolby. To get 5.1 PCM sound, i have to connect 3 RCA cables: 1 for Front L/R, 1 for Rear L/R and 1 for Center/SB. My SoundCard have 8 Channels, so i also can connect another RCA for middle speakers (L/R).....this is too many cables.
D-Man11.....connecting with jacks/RCA to the receiver send PCM sound, no DTS or Dolby.
To get 5.1 PCM sound, i have to connect 3 RCA cables: 1 for Front L/R, 1 for Rear L/R and 1 for Center/SB.
My SoundCard have 8 Channels, so i also can connect another RCA for middle speakers (L/R).....this is too many cables.

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#84
Posted 05/10/2016 03:37 PM   
[quote="DHR"]There been years when i try to configure (in windows, soundcard, receiver, etc)...never get 5.1 from any game. Now with the kids, i play with headphones or very low sound (i play when they sleep). Right now i'm connecting via Digital Output to the receiver, that way is impossible to get real 5.1 sound. I will try with HDMI, i don't found any RCA/jack cables in my stuff....i have only HDMI and digitals ones...LOL Any suggestion using HDMI cable to receiver? [/quote] To jump back to this point and backup something already said, if you want 5.1 sound over optical or coax (digital) in games then you need to use DTS connect or dolby digital live. Simple fact and nothing to do with anything else in this thread. Yes lossless requires HDMI, yes you can do this over analogue connections as well, but this is exactly what DTS connnect and DDL are designed for an still used for today. These formats are explicitly designed to encode the output from the game/windows/whatever and pump it through a digital connector to a receiver than can decode back to 5.1. If you don't want to run all the analogue cables, try and find some different or unlocked drivers.
DHR said:There been years when i try to configure (in windows, soundcard, receiver, etc)...never get 5.1 from any game. Now with the kids, i play with headphones or very low sound (i play when they sleep).

Right now i'm connecting via Digital Output to the receiver, that way is impossible to get real 5.1 sound.
I will try with HDMI, i don't found any RCA/jack cables in my stuff....i have only HDMI and digitals ones...LOL
Any suggestion using HDMI cable to receiver?


To jump back to this point and backup something already said, if you want 5.1 sound over optical or coax (digital) in games then you need to use DTS connect or dolby digital live.
Simple fact and nothing to do with anything else in this thread.
Yes lossless requires HDMI, yes you can do this over analogue connections as well, but this is exactly what DTS connnect and DDL are designed for an still used for today.
These formats are explicitly designed to encode the output from the game/windows/whatever and pump it through a digital connector to a receiver than can decode back to 5.1.
If you don't want to run all the analogue cables, try and find some different or unlocked drivers.

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#85
Posted 05/10/2016 05:25 PM   
HDR, glad to hear you have it working. Your older amps will probably sound a lot better than the new ones (especially for music), unless you're spending a lot of money. [quote="D-Man11"]So how is is that the CPU is doing all the work as you say, I'm still not understanding. Which Manufacturer's GPU do you have? [s]If you are using analog cables, wouldn't those be routed off of the sound card, whether it's integrated in the motherboard or discrete?[/s] NVM So the RME fireface soundcard is a $1500 USB connected passthrough device? edit: that sound worse, than I meant it. I can't understand how this will work for Dolby and DTS if it doesn't decode and your amps do not. edit: nvm, you said the PowerDVD is handling it for movies. So what is handling your surround out from video games? [/quote] That's ok, It's a lot more complicated than it needs to be with all these ridiculous audio and video standards. My RME is a USB soundcard with analogue outputs. It's powerdvd that decodes the audio formats (DTS and dolby) to analogue wav (called PCM) in films. Games output PCM surround sound so there are no need for DTS and Dolby and the likes. I have it because the DACS (digital to analogue converters) sound amazing and I use the inputs for recording (music production) Think of it like this... A wav (PCM) is the highest quality audio you can have. I'm not going to go into bit rates and sample depths, I'm going to do this in easy to understand layman terms..... Spdif can't support 5.1 or 7.1 wavs as they don't have the bandwidth. They support stereo PCM. DTS / Dolby digital is essentially an MP3 version of a wav so there's enough bandwidth over spdif to fit in a 5.1 stream. Your amp will then decode DTS/DD and you'll be playing MP3 quality audio. This is lossy audio. HDMI supports 5.1 and 7.1 PCM as it has the bandwidth. DTS-MA and Dolby True HD is just PCM wav quality. Exactly the same as using a PCM wav. This is lossless audio. Games don't have to be hdcp compliant so don't need to support DTS or Dolby standards. They just output using PCM. Reading what rustyk has said (and a little research later) I was wrong to say DTS connect and Dolby digital live are dicontinued. I should have said less commonly used or redundant. I stand corrected. What these standards do is take the surround sound PCM and downsample to AC3 (think MP3 quality) so it'll fit over spdif. (As mentioned earlier) this enables 5.1 gaming over spdif if your soundcard supports it. Problem is it's still worse quality than using analogue as analogue is lossless audio whilst DTS connect and Dolby digital live are lossy. if you connect your nvidia card to an amp over HDMI the nvidia card just passes through (called bitstreaming) the DTS and Dolby standards (or PCM) for your amp to decode/process. This is lossless and the same as wav (PCM) HDMI is the cause of a lot of problems. I wish it would stay out of computing and stick to TV's. All the 3DTV play limitations and new audio codecs etc all due to HDMI. I don't want to pay £1000's ever year on a new receiver because my old receiver/AVR doesn't support: HDMI 2.0, 4K, HDR, hdcp 2.2, etc. These aren't even audio standards! All I want to do is play back 8 wavs at the same time! It's crazy when you think about it. Analogue is the best way to do it. Spend your money on DACS on your soundcards not for licensing limiting DRM protocols and standards that are pointless, it'll sound better and last longer! Then Dolby Atmos and DTSX came along.... With no decoding to analogue.... Anyway I hope that has helped explain a few things.
HDR, glad to hear you have it working.
Your older amps will probably sound a lot better than the new ones (especially for music), unless you're spending a lot of money.

D-Man11 said:So how is is that the CPU is doing all the work as you say, I'm still not understanding.

Which Manufacturer's GPU do you have?

If you are using analog cables, wouldn't those be routed off of the sound card, whether it's integrated in the motherboard or discrete? NVM

So the RME fireface soundcard is a $1500 USB connected passthrough device?

edit: that sound worse, than I meant it. I can't understand how this will work for Dolby and DTS if it doesn't decode and your amps do not. edit: nvm, you said the PowerDVD is handling it for movies. So what is handling your surround out from video games?



That's ok, It's a lot more complicated than it needs to be with all these ridiculous audio and video standards.
My RME is a USB soundcard with analogue outputs.
It's powerdvd that decodes the audio formats (DTS and dolby) to analogue wav (called PCM) in films.
Games output PCM surround sound so there are no need for DTS and Dolby and the likes.
I have it because the DACS (digital to analogue converters) sound amazing and I use the inputs for recording (music production)

Think of it like this...

A wav (PCM) is the highest quality audio you can have. I'm not going to go into bit rates and sample depths, I'm going to do this in easy to understand layman terms.....

Spdif can't support 5.1 or 7.1 wavs as they don't have the bandwidth. They support stereo PCM.
DTS / Dolby digital is essentially an MP3 version of a wav so there's enough bandwidth over spdif to fit in a 5.1 stream.
Your amp will then decode DTS/DD and you'll be playing MP3 quality audio. This is lossy audio.

HDMI supports 5.1 and 7.1 PCM as it has the bandwidth.
DTS-MA and Dolby True HD is just PCM wav quality. Exactly the same as using a PCM wav. This is lossless audio.

Games don't have to be hdcp compliant so don't need to support DTS or Dolby standards. They just output using PCM.

Reading what rustyk has said (and a little research later) I was wrong to say DTS connect and Dolby digital live are dicontinued. I should have said less commonly used or redundant. I stand corrected.
What these standards do is take the surround sound PCM and downsample to AC3 (think MP3 quality) so it'll fit over spdif. (As mentioned earlier) this enables 5.1 gaming over spdif if your soundcard supports it.
Problem is it's still worse quality than using analogue as analogue is lossless audio whilst DTS connect and Dolby digital live are lossy.


if you connect your nvidia card to an amp over HDMI the nvidia card just passes through (called bitstreaming) the DTS and Dolby standards (or PCM) for your amp to decode/process. This is lossless and the same as wav (PCM)

HDMI is the cause of a lot of problems. I wish it would stay out of computing and stick to TV's.
All the 3DTV play limitations and new audio codecs etc all due to HDMI.
I don't want to pay £1000's ever year on a new receiver because my old receiver/AVR doesn't support:
HDMI 2.0, 4K, HDR, hdcp 2.2, etc. These aren't even audio standards! All I want to do is play back 8 wavs at the same time!
It's crazy when you think about it.

Analogue is the best way to do it. Spend your money on DACS on your soundcards not for licensing limiting DRM protocols and standards that are pointless, it'll sound better and last longer!

Then Dolby Atmos and DTSX came along.... With no decoding to analogue....

Anyway I hope that has helped explain a few things.

#86
Posted 05/10/2016 08:01 PM   
[quote="DHR"]Yesterday i found 2 RCA/jack cables so i connect the PC to the Receiver through jacks (PC out) --> RCA (Receiver In) and configure a quadrofonic sound (because i found only 2 cables) and works.....now i need to buy another cable for Center/SR for the 5.1 I don't like to connect that way because there are too many cables (with my nanny and my kids this is a high risk - the PC is at floor level), but i suppose if i want 5.1 sound in gaming this is my only choice atm. Maybe is time to upgrade my receiver :( , it's an old one but the sound is fantastic and very clear.[/quote] Or you can just upgrade you kids,what ever is easiest ....:D har har...could not resist..
DHR said:Yesterday i found 2 RCA/jack cables so i connect the PC to the Receiver through jacks (PC out) --> RCA (Receiver In) and configure a quadrofonic sound (because i found only 2 cables) and works.....now i need to buy another cable for Center/SR for the 5.1

I don't like to connect that way because there are too many cables (with my nanny and my kids this is a high risk - the PC is at floor level), but i suppose if i want 5.1 sound in gaming this is my only choice atm.

Maybe is time to upgrade my receiver :( , it's an old one but the sound is fantastic and very clear.


Or you can just upgrade you kids,what ever is easiest ....:D har har...could not resist..

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#87
Posted 05/10/2016 08:23 PM   
Right that fills in some gaps along with your mentioning that HAL was only available in Vista. In the link that you gave http://satsun.org/audio/ it has a link to the Alchemy page and explains why I wasn't having success with some of the old games that I was trying to get to work with the external Sound Blaster sound card. http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=536346 "To upgrade a legacy DirectSound3D based game to use Creative ALchemy involves copying a couple of files to the same directory as the game's executable. The first file is called dsound.dll and does the work necessary to re-enable 3D audio and EAX, the other file, dsound.ini, contains configuration options that affect how the audio will be rendered. The variables in the dsound.ini are controlled by the following options in the dialogue box: -" I never knew about adding in the files/dll. It seems that the best option going forward is to find a receiver that accepts surround analog inputs. Currently, I'm using optical for games and swicthing to HDMI for movies on my AVR. Now I regret getting rid of my old surround receiver when I got an AVR. I do have a Logitech surround that works well in most instances, but the speakers suckkkk. Not that I was expecting much from them, they make great keyboards and mice, but never great speakers.
Right that fills in some gaps along with your mentioning that HAL was only available in Vista.

In the link that you gave http://satsun.org/audio/ it has a link to the Alchemy page and explains why I wasn't having success with some of the old games that I was trying to get to work with the external Sound Blaster sound card.


http://forums.creative.com/showthread.php?t=536346


"To upgrade a legacy DirectSound3D based game to use Creative ALchemy involves copying a couple of files to the same directory as the game's executable. The first file is called dsound.dll and does the work necessary to re-enable 3D audio and EAX, the other file, dsound.ini, contains configuration options that affect how the audio will be rendered. The variables in the dsound.ini are controlled by the following options in the dialogue box: -"

I never knew about adding in the files/dll.

It seems that the best option going forward is to find a receiver that accepts surround analog inputs. Currently, I'm using optical for games and swicthing to HDMI for movies on my AVR.

Now I regret getting rid of my old surround receiver when I got an AVR.

I do have a Logitech surround that works well in most instances, but the speakers suckkkk. Not that I was expecting much from them, they make great keyboards and mice, but never great speakers.

#88
Posted 05/10/2016 08:43 PM   
On a side note: It's saddening to see that SlySoft has been forced to shut down. So much for those LifeTime updates.
On a side note: It's saddening to see that SlySoft has been forced to shut down. So much for those LifeTime updates.

#89
Posted 05/10/2016 09:08 PM   
Hal was removed with vista. Does your AVR have audio over HDMI? If so I'd just bitstream to your amp from your Nvidia card. The positional audio in the old games were a lot more accurate than the last ten years. This is essentially what Nvidia and AMD are trying to do now with VRWorks Audio and TrueAudio. Albeit with ray tracing and impulse reponses no doubt.
Hal was removed with vista.

Does your AVR have audio over HDMI?

If so I'd just bitstream to your amp from your Nvidia card.

The positional audio in the old games were a lot more accurate than the last ten years.
This is essentially what Nvidia and AMD are trying to do now with VRWorks Audio and TrueAudio.
Albeit with ray tracing and impulse reponses no doubt.

#90
Posted 05/10/2016 09:11 PM   
  6 / 10    
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