3D Vision Cpu Core Bottleneck
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[quote="helifax"]I have Windows 10 & Windows 7 mate. Not sure what gave you another impression. This is end-to-end user forum. Nvidia rarely comes here. Sorry that "you can't rely on my help". If you want to get Nvidia to help then use the proper channels. (Open a proper bug ticket and so on). Also, you I bet you can download Windows 7 from somewhere to test and see. Wanting to fix something is one thing (Which you want). Trying to find what works for you is another thing (Which you clearly don't want). Windows 10 changed a lot from Windows 7, meaning the WDDM. That is the reason I said to test Windows 7. The fact that is only appearing in one DX version means ABSOLUTELY nothing as well. Some of your hardware can still be incompatible or even faulty. [/quote] @helifax - Calm down mate. I am not sure what I said that offended you so much. I am sorry. As you know tone and intent can easily be lost in the written word so please forgive me if I worded something wrong. I did not say I cannot rely on your help. I was just pointing out that we have different setups so I cannot use your configuration to completely confirm or deny I have an issue. My main point is I am leaning towards a Pascal driver issue which would obviously not affect a user like yourself who has Maxwell. Also, I thought I did mention multiple times that I do have an open ticket with Nvidia. The user forum here has been very helpful in directing/refining my troubleshooting steps which I have then used to update Nvidia on what I have found. However, as you know sometimes it takes multiple voices with the same problem to get heard so I was hopeful that others have experienced the same or similar issue (which from what I read here there appears to be so) and that if I can show Nvidia I am not the only one maybe something official can be done to rectify this. I will say again I am not sure why I try your patience so much. Out of all the posters on this forum you have been the one to "attack" me over my posts/questions where users like bo3b have been much more cordial, helpful and understanding. I thank you for your tireless support you give the 3dvision community, but please do not dismiss my issue out of hand or jump down my throat. While I am not a coding or programing guru, I do hold a computer degree and am the Telecommunications Operations Manager for a fixed wireless/fiber optic ISP where I not only run the business I also engineered the whole network end to end and troubleshoot Internet/Network issues with multiple users every day. I say that not to say how great I am, but to say I feel I have decent troubleshooting skills and am not a computer novice. If you do not want to help further that is fine. Ignore my posts, but please keep it civil as I never purposefully tried to bash you.
helifax said:I have Windows 10 & Windows 7 mate. Not sure what gave you another impression.

This is end-to-end user forum. Nvidia rarely comes here.

Sorry that "you can't rely on my help". If you want to get Nvidia to help then use the proper channels. (Open a proper bug ticket and so on).
Also, you I bet you can download Windows 7 from somewhere to test and see.

Wanting to fix something is one thing (Which you want). Trying to find what works for you is another thing (Which you clearly don't want).

Windows 10 changed a lot from Windows 7, meaning the WDDM. That is the reason I said to test Windows 7. The fact that is only appearing in one DX version means ABSOLUTELY nothing as well. Some of your hardware can still be incompatible or even faulty.







@helifax - Calm down mate. I am not sure what I said that offended you so much. I am sorry. As you know tone and intent can easily be lost in the written word so please forgive me if I worded something wrong.

I did not say I cannot rely on your help. I was just pointing out that we have different setups so I cannot use your configuration to completely confirm or deny I have an issue. My main point is I am leaning towards a Pascal driver issue which would obviously not affect a user like yourself who has Maxwell.

Also, I thought I did mention multiple times that I do have an open ticket with Nvidia. The user forum here has been very helpful in directing/refining my troubleshooting steps which I have then used to update Nvidia on what I have found. However, as you know sometimes it takes multiple voices with the same problem to get heard so I was hopeful that others have experienced the same or similar issue (which from what I read here there appears to be so) and that if I can show Nvidia I am not the only one maybe something official can be done to rectify this.

I will say again I am not sure why I try your patience so much. Out of all the posters on this forum you have been the one to "attack" me over my posts/questions where users like bo3b have been much more cordial, helpful and understanding.

I thank you for your tireless support you give the 3dvision community, but please do not dismiss my issue out of hand or jump down my throat.

While I am not a coding or programing guru, I do hold a computer degree and am the Telecommunications Operations Manager for a fixed wireless/fiber optic ISP where I not only run the business I also engineered the whole network end to end and troubleshoot Internet/Network issues with multiple users every day. I say that not to say how great I am, but to say I feel I have decent troubleshooting skills and am not a computer novice.

If you do not want to help further that is fine. Ignore my posts, but please keep it civil as I never purposefully tried to bash you.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

#91
Posted 09/15/2016 12:28 AM   
For what its worth, I agree with helifax that there could be other bottlenecks within the system. This is why, for years, I have monitored intricate details of my system on the LCD of my G19 keyboard, for which I have custom made monitoring display which picks up data from MSI Afterburner, HWInfo, core temp, speedfan, fraps, etc. [img]http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Worlds/Listings/VRInterfaces/G19Keyboard.jpg[/img] [img]https://s21.postimg.org/cbhzk3syf/IMG_20160915_012529.jpg[/img] This is a photo of the LCD while playing The Witcher 3 in Novigrad. I have customised it to show me: GPU 1 usage, temperature, memory usage (identical in SLi), core clock, TDP, PCIE BW usage @ (16x PCIE 2.0) GPU 2 usage, temperature, memory usage (identical in SLi), core clock, TDP, PCIE BW usage @ (16x PCIE 2.0) Current FPS + latency, and FPS + latency over time graphs, which is helpful in ascertaining what to cap the FPS at, if a all. Memory usage. CPU usage over time graph, current individual core usage bar graphs, CPU clock, current CPU multiplier, CPU voltage, and CPU temperature. It also shows me current IO and IO over time graphs on the SSDs / drives which help find loading related stuttering and bottlenecks. The LCD/graphs are updated at ~60 fps. This is why I am confident in my findings, as I have been keeping a close eye on all these items; nothing shows a bottleneck except the CPU individual core usage. It could of course be something which I am not monitoring of course. Suggestions of additional items to monitor would be welcome! Insofar, all I know is that as soon as 3DVision is enabled, the CPU usage plummets, as does the GPU usage. When setting individual affinity, in the games tested so far, GPU usage (and therefore FPS) stop scaling at around half the number of cores being used vs 2D, and therefore half the FPS is manifested. I should point out here that underclocking the CPU while keeping everything else constant, reduces GPU usage and FPS. This points to the CPU or something heavily related to the CPU as causing this problem.
For what its worth, I agree with helifax that there could be other bottlenecks within the system. This is why, for years, I have monitored intricate details of my system on the LCD of my G19 keyboard, for which I have custom made monitoring display which picks up data from MSI Afterburner, HWInfo, core temp, speedfan, fraps, etc.

Image


Image

This is a photo of the LCD while playing The Witcher 3 in Novigrad.

I have customised it to show me:
GPU 1 usage, temperature, memory usage (identical in SLi), core clock, TDP, PCIE BW usage @ (16x PCIE 2.0)
GPU 2 usage, temperature, memory usage (identical in SLi), core clock, TDP, PCIE BW usage @ (16x PCIE 2.0)

Current FPS + latency, and FPS + latency over time graphs, which is helpful in ascertaining what to cap the FPS at, if a all.

Memory usage.

CPU usage over time graph, current individual core usage bar graphs, CPU clock, current CPU multiplier, CPU voltage, and CPU temperature.


It also shows me current IO and IO over time graphs on the SSDs / drives which help find loading related stuttering and bottlenecks.

The LCD/graphs are updated at ~60 fps.

This is why I am confident in my findings, as I have been keeping a close eye on all these items; nothing shows a bottleneck except the CPU individual core usage. It could of course be something which I am not monitoring of course. Suggestions of additional items to monitor would be welcome!

Insofar, all I know is that as soon as 3DVision is enabled, the CPU usage plummets, as does the GPU usage. When setting individual affinity, in the games tested so far, GPU usage (and therefore FPS) stop scaling at around half the number of cores being used vs 2D, and therefore half the FPS is manifested.

I should point out here that underclocking the CPU while keeping everything else constant, reduces GPU usage and FPS. This points to the CPU or something heavily related to the CPU as causing this problem.

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#92
Posted 09/15/2016 12:48 AM   
@terintamel +1 on helifax's win7 differential diagnosis test, you should be able to download a 'test' version. I see you have a Sound Blaster Z sound card. It could be a latency issue. So we are clear, are we talking about hard stutter (data loading from hard disk etc) or microstutter (mostly noticeable while panning etc). Please check out this tool and report back... http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml also https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3oatuw/those_of_you_gaming_on_windows_10_heres_how_i/ I say this because nVidia's recent drivers have had latency problems which are being widely discussed. Also, it would be worth disabling the SBZ to see if it makes any difference (it could be tying up the PCIE BW for example). And finally, "Game HDD: Seagate 1TB SATA6". Try putting a stuttering game onto the SSD to see if it improves.
@terintamel

+1 on helifax's win7 differential diagnosis test, you should be able to download a 'test' version.

I see you have a Sound Blaster Z sound card.

It could be a latency issue.

So we are clear, are we talking about hard stutter (data loading from hard disk etc) or microstutter (mostly noticeable while panning etc).

Please check out this tool and report back...

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

also

https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3oatuw/those_of_you_gaming_on_windows_10_heres_how_i/

I say this because nVidia's recent drivers have had latency problems which are being widely discussed.

Also, it would be worth disabling the SBZ to see if it makes any difference (it could be tying up the PCIE BW for example).

And finally, "Game HDD: Seagate 1TB SATA6". Try putting a stuttering game onto the SSD to see if it improves.

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#93
Posted 09/15/2016 12:53 AM   
I will try both those things, but based on the description in the second link I don't think it is microstutter, but hard stutter. The frame rate and GPU usage drop at the same time to unreasonable levels while the CPU usage stays the same. I would definitely lean, as you mentioned, to something like the HDD except if it was an asset loading issue shouldn't it happen regardless of whether I have the 3D driver enabled (3d off in game) or not and also happen in Dx9 on games that offer both dx9 and 11?
I will try both those things, but based on the description in the second link I don't think it is microstutter, but hard stutter.

The frame rate and GPU usage drop at the same time to unreasonable levels while the CPU usage stays the same. I would definitely lean, as you mentioned, to something like the HDD except if it was an asset loading issue shouldn't it happen regardless of whether I have the 3D driver enabled (3d off in game) or not and also happen in Dx9 on games that offer both dx9 and 11?

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

#94
Posted 09/15/2016 01:05 AM   
@bo3b IIRC the difference between toggled off and off in CP has always been @15% since the ~1990s, even with iZ3D drivers. I'd think it's probably the standard 3d tech overhead with ED drivers, Tridef etc?
@bo3b IIRC the difference between toggled off and off in CP has always been @15% since the ~1990s, even with iZ3D drivers. I'd think it's probably the standard 3d tech overhead with ED drivers, Tridef etc?

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#95
Posted 09/15/2016 02:48 AM   
[quote="terintamel"] I will try both those things, but based on the description in the second link I don't think it is microstutter, but hard stutter. The frame rate and GPU usage drop at the same time to unreasonable levels while the CPU usage stays the same. I would definitely lean, as you mentioned, to something like the HDD except if it was an asset loading issue shouldn't it happen regardless of whether I have the 3D driver enabled (3d off in game) or not and also happen in Dx9 on games that offer both dx9 and 11?[/quote] Microsoft pulled their easy to get DigitalRiver ISOs, probably as part of their forcing everyone to Win10. You can get them presently at: http://mirror.corenoc.de/digitalrivercontent.net/ You don't need a valid code to do testing. Win7 will defer activation for 30 days. I'm also inclined to think this is something new with 10xx cards, but we do see it in other scenarios, or something similar at least. My current test case is Just Cause 3, as the stutter is really obvious, and it only happens when 3D is enabled. Just tried latest driver, and it's better, but still present. I'm only getting about 65% GPU usage, and still get 85-90% CPU usage when it stutters. Given the test RAGEdemon does there to monitor, that suggests the problem is outside of those levels of monitoring. As an example, it could be related to a single thread feeding the graphics pipeline, running into a single core limit. If that thread ever gets blocked, it would make it worse. Possibilities will include the draw-calls bottleneck, and threading/blocks, and likely other things I'm not thinking of. Could also be that the games are actually reasonably tuned, and that that the 15% overhead from enabling the 3D actually breaks their pipeline. That seems unlikely though- game devs don't tend to optimize anything unless they have to, and we all have much better hardware than their minimum spec systems.
terintamel said: I will try both those things, but based on the description in the second link I don't think it is microstutter, but hard stutter.

The frame rate and GPU usage drop at the same time to unreasonable levels while the CPU usage stays the same. I would definitely lean, as you mentioned, to something like the HDD except if it was an asset loading issue shouldn't it happen regardless of whether I have the 3D driver enabled (3d off in game) or not and also happen in Dx9 on games that offer both dx9 and 11?

Microsoft pulled their easy to get DigitalRiver ISOs, probably as part of their forcing everyone to Win10. You can get them presently at: http://mirror.corenoc.de/digitalrivercontent.net/


You don't need a valid code to do testing. Win7 will defer activation for 30 days.


I'm also inclined to think this is something new with 10xx cards, but we do see it in other scenarios, or something similar at least.

My current test case is Just Cause 3, as the stutter is really obvious, and it only happens when 3D is enabled. Just tried latest driver, and it's better, but still present. I'm only getting about 65% GPU usage, and still get 85-90% CPU usage when it stutters.


Given the test RAGEdemon does there to monitor, that suggests the problem is outside of those levels of monitoring. As an example, it could be related to a single thread feeding the graphics pipeline, running into a single core limit. If that thread ever gets blocked, it would make it worse.

Possibilities will include the draw-calls bottleneck, and threading/blocks, and likely other things I'm not thinking of.

Could also be that the games are actually reasonably tuned, and that that the 15% overhead from enabling the 3D actually breaks their pipeline. That seems unlikely though- game devs don't tend to optimize anything unless they have to, and we all have much better hardware than their minimum spec systems.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#96
Posted 09/15/2016 05:28 AM   
@terintamel: Honestly, I am sorry that you feel like I am attacking you in any way. This is not the intent. Like you said: [quote] As you know tone and intent can easily be lost in the written word so please forgive me if I worded something wrong. [/quote] Being too direct most of the times gives people the impression that I am mad or attacking them. Which is hardly the case. So, I apologise if this came out the wrong way:(
@terintamel:

Honestly, I am sorry that you feel like I am attacking you in any way. This is not the intent.

Like you said:

As you know tone and intent can easily be lost in the written word so please forgive me if I worded something wrong.


Being too direct most of the times gives people the impression that I am mad or attacking them. Which is hardly the case.
So, I apologise if this came out the wrong way:(

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#97
Posted 09/15/2016 06:19 AM   
At this point I really wish I had not sold my 660ti so quickly as I could have put it in my system to see if the issue is a Pascal problem or not. Ok. Please bear with me as I have some questions. I ask them because I truly want to understand things better. 1. If I install Win 7 and my hard stuttering continues what is to stop Nvidia from still claiming the problem is my system and not their drivers? If the stuttering stops what is to stop them from claiming the issue is one of my other system components that must not work well in Win 10 and the issue is still not their drivers? 2. In games that offer DX9 and DX11 modes where DX9 shows NO stuttering, what is the major differences in DX11 that could cause the stuttering in DX11 mode only? As I understand it the only things that should be different are the code that is executed by the CPU, GPU, Sound, and probably input devices (KB, mouse, gamepad). The other PC subsystems (PCI bus, storage controllers, etc) should be operating with the same "code" as they were before so I can't see them being the problem. That to me limits the potential cause of the stutter directly to the CPU,GPU,and sound systems/drivers. Now when running in 3dvision there should be no change to how the audio is processed so I want to rule out the soundcard as the cause. That leaves the CPU/GPU. So I guess my question is when the 3dVision driver is enabled (even when 3d is off in game) are the CPU and the GPU both now processing altered code than when the 3dvision driver is disabled? 3. I hear mentioning of draw calls and things like that being doubled in 3d and that makes sense. My question is are the draw calls and the like effectively being doubled when 3dvision is on, but 3d is off in game? 4. If when running in 3dvision is causing a CPU or GPU bottleneck shouldn't the bottle neck be removed or severely lessened when I turn all graphics settings to their lowest value and run at a much lower resolution? For me the hard stutter remains no matter what in game resolution or graphics settings I choose. 5. I know it has been dismissed as irrelevant, but I still find it a very odd coincidence that the following seems to be true about each user who says they are having stuttering or low GPU usage issues. The pattern seems to be at least one or some combination of the following is true. * User has a Pascal card * Game is running DX11 * Game is open world * Game does not have native 3d and is relying on the driver ton convert to 3d (either CM or 3d auto) * User is running Window 10 6. Here is the list of games that I have issues with and some games other users in this thread have mentioned as well. I hope you see a pattern. Games with performance issues when 3dvision driver is enabled. I have listed the user who reported the problem if it was not me. The ones reported by me all have hard stutter that comes a sudden drop in GPU usage * Witcher 3 - DX11 open world (RAGEdemon) * Just Cause 3 - DX11 open world (bo3b) * Watch Dogs - DX11 open world (CM mode) * Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX11 open world (CM/auto mode) * Arkham Origins - DX11 open world (native 3d) (terintamel, masterotaku, sammy123) * Mirrors Edge Catalyst - DX11 open world (CM mode) (terintamel, seregin) 7. List of games I have recently tested on my system that show no GPU usage/stutter problems. Games I have tested with no issues. * Deus EX: HR - DX11 (native 3d) * Deus Ex: MD - DX11 (native 3d) * Hitman Absolution - DX11 (native 3d running in CM mode?) * Thief 2013 - DX11 (native 3d) * Tomb Raider 2013 - DX11 (native 3d) * Bioshock Infinite - DX11 (CM mode) * Akrham Origins - DX9 (native 3d) * Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX9 (3d auto and helixmod) * DarkSiders 2: Deathfinitive - DX9 (helixmod) * Borderland 2 - DX9 (helix) * Source Engine games (HL2, Portal2, BlackMesa) - DX9 (3d auto) * Doom 3: BFG - Opengl (native 3d) * Crysis 2 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d) * Crysis 3 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d) * Mirror's Edge - DX9 (helix) * Alien Isolation - DX11 (CM mode) * Metro 2033/LL Redux - DX11 (3d auto?) 8. Results of the DPC tests showed no latency spikes or issues when not in game. Should I also run the DPC monitor and test while in game as well? 9. I will see if I can do the Win 7 tests, but it will take some time for me to get that setup. I am already spending more time on this than my wife likes :).
At this point I really wish I had not sold my 660ti so quickly as I could have put it in my system to see if the issue is a Pascal problem or not.

Ok. Please bear with me as I have some questions. I ask them because I truly want to understand things better.

1. If I install Win 7 and my hard stuttering continues what is to stop Nvidia from still claiming the problem is my system and not their drivers? If the stuttering stops what is to stop them from claiming the issue is one of my other system components that must not work well in Win 10 and the issue is still not their drivers?

2. In games that offer DX9 and DX11 modes where DX9 shows NO stuttering, what is the major differences in DX11 that could cause the stuttering in DX11 mode only? As I understand it the only things that should be different are the code that is executed by the CPU, GPU, Sound, and probably input devices (KB, mouse, gamepad). The other PC subsystems (PCI bus, storage controllers, etc) should be operating with the same "code" as they were before so I can't see them being the problem. That to me limits the potential cause of the stutter directly to the CPU,GPU,and sound systems/drivers. Now when running in 3dvision there should be no change to how the audio is processed so I want to rule out the soundcard as the cause. That leaves the CPU/GPU. So I guess my question is when the 3dVision driver is enabled (even when 3d is off in game) are the CPU and the GPU both now processing altered code than when the 3dvision driver is disabled?

3. I hear mentioning of draw calls and things like that being doubled in 3d and that makes sense. My question is are the draw calls and the like effectively being doubled when 3dvision is on, but 3d is off in game?

4. If when running in 3dvision is causing a CPU or GPU bottleneck shouldn't the bottle neck be removed or severely lessened when I turn all graphics settings to their lowest value and run at a much lower resolution? For me the hard stutter remains no matter what in game resolution or graphics settings I choose.

5. I know it has been dismissed as irrelevant, but I still find it a very odd coincidence that the following seems to be true about each user who says they are having stuttering or low GPU usage issues. The pattern seems to be at least one or some combination of the following is true.
* User has a Pascal card
* Game is running DX11
* Game is open world
* Game does not have native 3d and is relying on the driver ton convert to 3d (either CM or 3d auto)
* User is running Window 10

6. Here is the list of games that I have issues with and some games other users in this thread have mentioned as well. I hope you see a pattern.

Games with performance issues when 3dvision driver is enabled. I have listed the user who reported the problem if it was not me. The ones reported by me all have hard stutter that comes a sudden drop in GPU usage
* Witcher 3 - DX11 open world (RAGEdemon)
* Just Cause 3 - DX11 open world (bo3b)
* Watch Dogs - DX11 open world (CM mode)
* Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX11 open world (CM/auto mode)
* Arkham Origins - DX11 open world (native 3d) (terintamel, masterotaku, sammy123)
* Mirrors Edge Catalyst - DX11 open world (CM mode) (terintamel, seregin)

7. List of games I have recently tested on my system that show no GPU usage/stutter problems.
Games I have tested with no issues.
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 (native 3d)
* Deus Ex: MD - DX11 (native 3d)
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 (native 3d running in CM mode?)
* Thief 2013 - DX11 (native 3d)
* Tomb Raider 2013 - DX11 (native 3d)
* Bioshock Infinite - DX11 (CM mode)
* Akrham Origins - DX9 (native 3d)
* Far Cry 3/Blood Dragon - DX9 (3d auto and helixmod)
* DarkSiders 2: Deathfinitive - DX9 (helixmod)
* Borderland 2 - DX9 (helix)
* Source Engine games (HL2, Portal2, BlackMesa) - DX9 (3d auto)
* Doom 3: BFG - Opengl (native 3d)
* Crysis 2 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d)
* Crysis 3 - DX11 (native reprojection 3d)
* Mirror's Edge - DX9 (helix)
* Alien Isolation - DX11 (CM mode)
* Metro 2033/LL Redux - DX11 (3d auto?)

8. Results of the DPC tests showed no latency spikes or issues when not in game. Should I also run the DPC monitor and test while in game as well?

9. I will see if I can do the Win 7 tests, but it will take some time for me to get that setup. I am already spending more time on this than my wife likes :).

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

#98
Posted 09/15/2016 01:15 PM   
terintamel, one 'quick' differential test you can do to isolate whether this is a CPU bottleneck or a GPU / driver problem is simply underclock your CPU, leaving your RAM speed etc all the same. If the stuttery fps sections in games get worse / lower minimum FPS, then it's a CPU bottleneck problem. If on the other hand, the FPS and stutter remains the same, then it points to the GPU / driver issue. I would wager that your minimum FPS will change when you downclock your CPU, pointing to the fact that your IPC just isn't strong enough on your CPU, as shown in one of my previous posts. (IPC = single core single thread performance). It's literally half that of a modern intel CPU, which is quite horrendous. It means that the CPU just can't feed the GPU's fast enough. You say that your 660ti didn't have this issue. I would like to float the possibility that you just didn't notice it as your CPU kept that low performing GPU well fed. Regarding threads/core bottlenecks, DX11 uses multithreaded CPU vs DX9. Check out the following video of DX 9 vs DX 11. This can be an issue because IIRC, AMD 'cores' are not really cores. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajVc-uwdJ0Y
terintamel, one 'quick' differential test you can do to isolate whether this is a CPU bottleneck or a GPU / driver problem is simply underclock your CPU, leaving your RAM speed etc all the same. If the stuttery fps sections in games get worse / lower minimum FPS, then it's a CPU bottleneck problem.


If on the other hand, the FPS and stutter remains the same, then it points to the GPU / driver issue.

I would wager that your minimum FPS will change when you downclock your CPU, pointing to the fact that your IPC just isn't strong enough on your CPU, as shown in one of my previous posts. (IPC = single core single thread performance). It's literally half that of a modern intel CPU, which is quite horrendous. It means that the CPU just can't feed the GPU's fast enough.

You say that your 660ti didn't have this issue. I would like to float the possibility that you just didn't notice it as your CPU kept that low performing GPU well fed.

Regarding threads/core bottlenecks, DX11 uses multithreaded CPU vs DX9. Check out the following video of DX 9 vs DX 11. This can be an issue because IIRC, AMD 'cores' are not really cores.

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#99
Posted 09/15/2016 04:45 PM   
[quote="RAGEdemon"]terintamel, one 'quick' differential test you can do to isolate whither this is a CPU bottleneck or a GPU / driver problem is simply underclock your CPU, leaving your RAM speed etc all the same. If the stuttery fps sections in games get worse / lower minimum FPS, then it's a CPU bottleneck problem. If on the other hand, the FPS and stutter remains the same, then it points to the GPU / driver issue. I would wager that your minimum FPS will change when you downclock your CPU, pointing to the fact that your IPC just isn't strong enough on your CPU, as shown in one of my previous post. (IPC = single core single thread performance). It's literally half that of a modern intel CPU, which is quite horrendous. It means that the CPU just can't feed the GPU's fast enough. You say that your 660ti didn't have this issue. I would like to float the possibility that you just didn't notice it as your CPU kept that low performing GPU well fed. Regarding threads/core bottlenecks, DX11 uses multithreaded CPU vs DX9. Check out the following video of DX 9 vs DX 11. This can be an issue because IIRC, AMD 'cores' are not really cores. [/quote] Sounds reasonable. I will see if I can try it. What about the list of games that I have NO stutter in? Are there any on the list that you would expect to have stutter because of my weak CPU? I would have expected the new Deus EX, Crysis 3 to be affected due to how they scale with the CPU. http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/deus-ex-mankind-divided-pc-performance-analysis/ http://www.techspot.com/review/642-crysis-3-performance/page6.html Are there any other games on my list that work well in 3d that would be a good test to see if I can introduce the same type of hard stutter by declocking the CPU? Also what I still fail to understand is does the 3dVision driver when enabled introduce that much overhead that even with 3d off in game (CTRL+T) a game that performs perfect with no stutter becomes a stuttering mess?
RAGEdemon said:terintamel, one 'quick' differential test you can do to isolate whither this is a CPU bottleneck or a GPU / driver problem is simply underclock your CPU, leaving your RAM speed etc all the same. If the stuttery fps sections in games get worse / lower minimum FPS, then it's a CPU bottleneck problem.


If on the other hand, the FPS and stutter remains the same, then it points to the GPU / driver issue.

I would wager that your minimum FPS will change when you downclock your CPU, pointing to the fact that your IPC just isn't strong enough on your CPU, as shown in one of my previous post. (IPC = single core single thread performance). It's literally half that of a modern intel CPU, which is quite horrendous. It means that the CPU just can't feed the GPU's fast enough.

You say that your 660ti didn't have this issue. I would like to float the possibility that you just didn't notice it as your CPU kept that low performing GPU well fed.

Regarding threads/core bottlenecks, DX11 uses multithreaded CPU vs DX9. Check out the following video of DX 9 vs DX 11. This can be an issue because IIRC, AMD 'cores' are not really cores.



Sounds reasonable. I will see if I can try it.

What about the list of games that I have NO stutter in? Are there any on the list that you would expect to have stutter because of my weak CPU? I would have expected the new Deus EX, Crysis 3 to be affected due to how they scale with the CPU. http://www.dsogaming.com/pc-performance-analyses/deus-ex-mankind-divided-pc-performance-analysis/
http://www.techspot.com/review/642-crysis-3-performance/page6.html

Are there any other games on my list that work well in 3d that would be a good test to see if I can introduce the same type of hard stutter by declocking the CPU?


Also what I still fail to understand is does the 3dVision driver when enabled introduce that much overhead that even with 3d off in game (CTRL+T) a game that performs perfect with no stutter becomes a stuttering mess?

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 05:19 PM   
Well, yes and no. Unfortunately for your situation, the vast majority of us only have Intel CPUs which have very good IPC, so this is a discovery process for all of us through you. [color="gray"]"Also what I still fail to understand is does the 3dVision driver when enabled introduce that much overhead that even with 3d off in game (CTRL+T) a game that performs perfect with no stutter becomes a stuttering mess?"[/color] The problem is that as your FPS goes below your half your refresh rate, the system no longer produces consistently timed frames. This means that for a 120Hz display, when your fps goes from 60fps to 58fps, you will start noticing large stutter. This is why helifax recommends in one of his posts to cap your fps to 50/40/30 etc. Friend, to be frank, you seem to have a good job. You obviously place great value on your gaming time. Might I suggest that you invest in yourself, your happiness, and the child inside yourself who always wanted more than a mediocre experience, and just go and buy yourself a 6700k with a Titan XP. The cost of this setup will be a fraction of your wages, and you will have a far better gaming experience. If you will allow me to boldly state something: if your wife truly cares for you, she will not only understand this, but will actively encourage it. You slave away every day, and for what? You deserve this.
Well, yes and no. Unfortunately for your situation, the vast majority of us only have Intel CPUs which have very good IPC, so this is a discovery process for all of us through you.

"Also what I still fail to understand is does the 3dVision driver when enabled introduce that much overhead that even with 3d off in game (CTRL+T) a game that performs perfect with no stutter becomes a stuttering mess?"

The problem is that as your FPS goes below your half your refresh rate, the system no longer produces consistently timed frames. This means that for a 120Hz display, when your fps goes from 60fps to 58fps, you will start noticing large stutter. This is why helifax recommends in one of his posts to cap your fps to 50/40/30 etc.

Friend, to be frank, you seem to have a good job. You obviously place great value on your gaming time. Might I suggest that you invest in yourself, your happiness, and the child inside yourself who always wanted more than a mediocre experience, and just go and buy yourself a 6700k with a Titan XP. The cost of this setup will be a fraction of your wages, and you will have a far better gaming experience. If you will allow me to boldly state something: if your wife truly cares for you, she will not only understand this, but will actively encourage it. You slave away every day, and for what? You deserve this.

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

Posted 09/15/2016 06:14 PM   
@terintamel: I tried to respond to your questions: 1. It will definitely show that is not the driver. But something related potentially to other software or even a hardware issue. 2. DX9 and DX11 and OGL are totally different. Getting awesome results one DX9 doesn't mean it will translate to DX11 or DX12 or OGL. Totally different pieces of software code and they have nothing in common, except the naming to a dregree. 3. Yes. Having 3D Vision ENABLED but not active, will give you approx. THOSE same results (stuttering) as the ovehead is there: The driver is STILL working in the background to a degree to allow you to "HOT" Activate. 4. Depends on the game code and what the game is doing behind the scenes. If Low vs Ultra applies only to the texture resolution, then yes, there will be no difference. 5. There is no convertion there. What 3D Vision Automatic does is what the Developers should have done in their code. The driver is a bit more smart though as it tries to figure things out. As a result you would get a lesser performance than native implemented 3D (3D Vision Direct) but not by a huge amount. (10 FPS in 3D Vision aka 20 in 2D.) The stutters can depend on a lot of things for example how "Saturated the G-buffer" is. Just doubling the Draw Calls could put the G-buffer in difficulty and you could get stutters and such as the bus is overflown. Also it depends on the CPU architecture and a lot of hardware related things: How fast can it "pump" the data where is needed. Remember the CPU is the one that sends stuff to the GPU. So if you want, you can see it as a Master (CPU) - Slave (GPU) system. We could talk about what could go wrong for years here;) 6. There is no direct pattern so to speak. They all use completely different rendering engines, but have the 3D Vision & hardware in common. Again the thing can show either: Driver Issue or Hardware issue. 7. All of those seem to be older games from the one at number 6, except some of them. Perhaps this is a pattern??? Hard to say... 8. It certainly would not hurt to try this as well. 9. Come and ask my wife about how much time I spend on stuff like this;)) But, in the end, is worth it;) Like I said earlier, it depends on how much time you want to invest solving issues and understanding things. The more, the better the results will be, as you will learn a lot of new and cool stuff and be more future proof for errors that you will get as well:)
@terintamel:
I tried to respond to your questions:

1. It will definitely show that is not the driver. But something related potentially to other software or even a hardware issue.

2. DX9 and DX11 and OGL are totally different. Getting awesome results one DX9 doesn't mean it will translate to DX11 or DX12 or OGL. Totally different pieces of software code and they have nothing in common, except the naming to a dregree.

3. Yes. Having 3D Vision ENABLED but not active, will give you approx. THOSE same results (stuttering) as the ovehead is there: The driver is STILL working in the background to a degree to allow you to "HOT" Activate.

4. Depends on the game code and what the game is doing behind the scenes. If Low vs Ultra applies only to the texture resolution, then yes, there will be no difference.

5. There is no convertion there.
What 3D Vision Automatic does is what the Developers should have done in their code. The driver is a bit more smart though as it tries to figure things out. As a result you would get a lesser performance than native implemented 3D (3D Vision Direct) but not by a huge amount. (10 FPS in 3D Vision aka 20 in 2D.)

The stutters can depend on a lot of things for example how "Saturated the G-buffer" is. Just doubling the Draw Calls could put the G-buffer in difficulty and you could get stutters and such as the bus is overflown. Also it depends on the CPU architecture and a lot of hardware related things: How fast can it "pump" the data where is needed. Remember the CPU is the one that sends stuff to the GPU. So if you want, you can see it as a Master (CPU) - Slave (GPU) system.
We could talk about what could go wrong for years here;)

6. There is no direct pattern so to speak. They all use completely different rendering engines, but have the 3D Vision & hardware in common. Again the thing can show either: Driver Issue or Hardware issue.

7. All of those seem to be older games from the one at number 6, except some of them. Perhaps this is a pattern??? Hard to say...

8. It certainly would not hurt to try this as well.

9. Come and ask my wife about how much time I spend on stuff like this;)) But, in the end, is worth it;)
Like I said earlier, it depends on how much time you want to invest solving issues and understanding things. The more, the better the results will be, as you will learn a lot of new and cool stuff and be more future proof for errors that you will get as well:)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

Posted 09/15/2016 06:34 PM   
[quote="RAGEdemon"] The problem is that as your FPS goes below your half your refresh rate, the system no longer produces consistently timed frames. This means that for a 120Hz display, when your fps goes from 60fps to 58fps, you will start noticing large stutter. This is why helifax recommends in one of his posts to cap your fps to 50/40/30 etc. [/quote] Ok I thinK I get what you are suggesting, but let me make sure I a clear. If I cap for example Far Cry 3 or Mirror's Edge Catalyst at 30fps via Riva Tuner w/3dvision enabled and the hard stutter still remains does that tell me anything? Thank you for your suggestion of buying better hardware. I did forget to mention I have 3 kids with 2 under the age of 2 so no my wife does want me to not just spend all evening on my PC (I don't want to either). Also even though my job title sounds great, and I do enjoy it, I do work for a local rural municipal government so the pay is not that awesome. Anyway I do appreciate everyone's suggestions so far and will see what I can do to try them out.
RAGEdemon said:
The problem is that as your FPS goes below your half your refresh rate, the system no longer produces consistently timed frames. This means that for a 120Hz display, when your fps goes from 60fps to 58fps, you will start noticing large stutter. This is why helifax recommends in one of his posts to cap your fps to 50/40/30 etc.


Ok I thinK I get what you are suggesting, but let me make sure I a clear. If I cap for example Far Cry 3 or Mirror's Edge Catalyst at 30fps via Riva Tuner w/3dvision enabled and the hard stutter still remains does that tell me anything?

Thank you for your suggestion of buying better hardware. I did forget to mention I have 3 kids with 2 under the age of 2 so no my wife does want me to not just spend all evening on my PC (I don't want to either). Also even though my job title sounds great, and I do enjoy it, I do work for a local rural municipal government so the pay is not that awesome.

Anyway I do appreciate everyone's suggestions so far and will see what I can do to try them out.

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 07:34 PM   
[quote="helifax"]@terintamel: 1. It will definitely show that is not the driver. But something related potentially to other software or even a hardware issue. [/quote] OK I just want to make sure I am clear on this. You are saying that if I get no stutters in Windows 7 than the issue is not the Nvidia Drivers?
helifax said:@terintamel:

1. It will definitely show that is not the driver. But something related potentially to other software or even a hardware issue.



OK I just want to make sure I am clear on this. You are saying that if I get no stutters in Windows 7 than the issue is not the Nvidia Drivers?

AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709

Posted 09/15/2016 07:38 PM   
@terintamel I also think is the CPU that is stressing too much with some games (the more CPU demanding ones). And also there are some games that are not CPU demanding, so you don't see the stutter or is very minimal. 6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode. 7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in [b]real 3D[/b] using community fix: * Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game. * Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always * Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU * Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU 9. If your wife is already starting to get angry....go and buy an intel CPU, you will save a lot of troubles with your wife and avoid those angry stares (and you in the other side looking through your 3D glasses).
@terintamel
I also think is the CPU that is stressing too much with some games (the more CPU demanding ones). And also there are some games that are not CPU demanding, so you don't see the stutter or is very minimal.

6. Just cause 3, have a memory leak....so will stutter in any PC in the planet. Frostbite Engine also stress a lot the CPU, so that's probably why you have stutter in Mirror Edge Catalyst even in CM mode.


7. From the list in this point, you can test this game in real 3D using community fix:
* Deus EX: HR - DX11 --> Maybe you will not have stutter, this game don't stress the CPU...it's an old game.
* Hitman Absolution - DX11 --> In this game you will probably have stutter in some places, but not always
* Crysis 2 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU
* Crysis 3 - DX11 --> You will probably have stutter, in real 3D this game strees the CPU


9. If your wife is already starting to get angry....go and buy an intel CPU, you will save a lot of troubles with your wife and avoid those angry stares (and you in the other side looking through your 3D glasses).

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Posted 09/15/2016 07:44 PM   
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