G2A are immoral, don't use them
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The first post in this thread links to devs explaining how badly G2A screws them. The second links to an even more comprehensive article that shows the same thing. Again, I'm not suggesting everyone only pay full retail price from the official developer-sanctioned store. Just consider being a little choosy about which key vendors you support, and avoid sites like G2A and Kinguin.
The first post in this thread links to devs explaining how badly G2A screws them.

The second links to an even more comprehensive article that shows the same thing.

Again, I'm not suggesting everyone only pay full retail price from the official developer-sanctioned store. Just consider being a little choosy about which key vendors you support, and avoid sites like G2A and Kinguin.

#16
Posted 06/30/2016 05:03 PM   
I got hacked on my PS4 account two weeks ago and someone bought 3 PS4 games with my paypal. Thanks to the PS4 support, I got my money back and my account is fine now. I was also using previously this seller. But since the hack coincidence I immediately erased my account there. Let's be honest, most of the games that are sold there are stolen and bought with stolen credit cards and accounts. This is just not right. Personnally I had out of 20 games around 7 invalid keys. This is quite a lot. Don't you think. And for the rest of the 13? CDKeys seems to be a bit better, because they mostly sell retail codes they bought in countries with no taxes on games, or in huge amounts directly from the publishers. I think they also do not have the possibility for criminals to sell masses of stolen 3 euro keys?? But of course we can also not exclude there that they are selling intentionnally stolen directly or indirectly stolen keys.
I got hacked on my PS4 account two weeks ago and someone bought 3 PS4 games with my paypal. Thanks to the PS4 support, I got my money back and my account is fine now.

I was also using previously this seller. But since the hack coincidence I immediately erased my account there. Let's be honest, most of the games that are sold there are stolen and bought with stolen credit cards and accounts. This is just not right. Personnally I had out of 20 games around 7 invalid keys. This is quite a lot. Don't you think. And for the rest of the 13?

CDKeys seems to be a bit better, because they mostly sell retail codes they bought in countries with no taxes on games, or in huge amounts directly from the publishers. I think they also do not have the possibility for criminals to sell masses of stolen 3 euro keys?? But of course we can also not exclude there that they are selling intentionnally stolen directly or indirectly stolen keys.

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#17
Posted 06/30/2016 06:19 PM   
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]That doesn't seem to be the issue at all. The developer openly states that he'd prefer people just pirate his game, over using G2A. It's not that they make less money for stolen copies, but it actually costs them money. Sure, it's true that there's no way to know if a key is stolen before you buy it - but a significant enough portion clearly are. Developers wouldn't be advocating piracy over G2A if it was simply a matter of them being paid a bit less.[/quote] Well that's the thing about the original point I find hardest to believe - that G2A are a Den of Thieves and CD-Keys are not. Surely, if all of these grey sellers sell at a similar price, they are all predominantly sourcing from a similar place - ie: the cheapest global price for a given game. If G2A was selling a higher percentage of stolen material than CD-Keys (or anywhere else), then G2A would be able to undercut the competition entirely. Because it doesn't, the logical conclusion is that most of G2As keys are sourced from similar places to any other grey seller. Think about how difficult it is to use a stolen credit card to get keys for a AAA title at launch. You can't do it from steam, because every game is associated with an account and people don't want to buy another account for Doom, they want to play Doom on their account. You can go into a shop and buy a bunch of copies of a game and then sell all the keys - but, anyone going into a shop and buying 50 copies of Doom on the single credit card is going to raise questions, besides the fact that most credit cards wouldn't allow the transaction. The easiest way to steal game keys is working in the distribution space, but then you undermine your own employment. The next easiest would hacking/cracking or otherwise resolving the keys before they are activated by purchase, which the level of cryptography involved probably makes very difficult. If this: [i]I’ve spoken to a merchant on G2A about how he’s making $3-4k a month, and he outlined the core business model: Get ahold of a database of stolen credit cards on the darkweb Go to a bundle/3rd party key reseller and buy a ton of game keys Put them up onto G2A and sell them at half the retail price[/i] was really that easy to do, everyone would be doing it :D The way the bundles are sold seems to be the cause for concern, not G2As tertiary redistribution. And there is no profit in buying from CD-Keys and selling on G2A. The article mentions economics - supply and demand. Something is setting the supply side for the grey market (including G2A) of game keys - something is determining the lowest price - and that something can't be theft, otherwise the price would not be $40 for a new game. And seriously, the biggest issue with all of this effects all retail. The banks should be accountable for credit card theft because the credit card is a service controlled by the banks - but somehow, the charge backs are forced upon the retailer. Retailers, globally, whether physical or virtual, need to stand up to the banking system - that is the largest problem that all of this discussion leads to. The worst thief in this whole story are the banks - and whole society's bail them out :D
Pirateguybrush said:That doesn't seem to be the issue at all. The developer openly states that he'd prefer people just pirate his game, over using G2A. It's not that they make less money for stolen copies, but it actually costs them money.

Sure, it's true that there's no way to know if a key is stolen before you buy it - but a significant enough portion clearly are.

Developers wouldn't be advocating piracy over G2A if it was simply a matter of them being paid a bit less.


Well that's the thing about the original point I find hardest to believe - that G2A are a Den of Thieves and CD-Keys are not. Surely, if all of these grey sellers sell at a similar price, they are all predominantly sourcing from a similar place - ie: the cheapest global price for a given game.

If G2A was selling a higher percentage of stolen material than CD-Keys (or anywhere else), then G2A would be able to undercut the competition entirely. Because it doesn't, the logical conclusion is that most of G2As keys are sourced from similar places to any other grey seller.

Think about how difficult it is to use a stolen credit card to get keys for a AAA title at launch. You can't do it from steam, because every game is associated with an account and people don't want to buy another account for Doom, they want to play Doom on their account. You can go into a shop and buy a bunch of copies of a game and then sell all the keys - but, anyone going into a shop and buying 50 copies of Doom on the single credit card is going to raise questions, besides the fact that most credit cards wouldn't allow the transaction. The easiest way to steal game keys is working in the distribution space, but then you undermine your own employment. The next easiest would hacking/cracking or otherwise resolving the keys before they are activated by purchase, which the level of cryptography involved probably makes very difficult.

If this:

I’ve spoken to a merchant on G2A about how he’s making $3-4k a month, and he outlined the core business model:
Get ahold of a database of stolen credit cards on the darkweb
Go to a bundle/3rd party key reseller and buy a ton of game keys
Put them up onto G2A and sell them at half the retail price


was really that easy to do, everyone would be doing it :D The way the bundles are sold seems to be the cause for concern, not G2As tertiary redistribution. And there is no profit in buying from CD-Keys and selling on G2A.

The article mentions economics - supply and demand. Something is setting the supply side for the grey market (including G2A) of game keys - something is determining the lowest price - and that something can't be theft, otherwise the price would not be $40 for a new game.


And seriously, the biggest issue with all of this effects all retail. The banks should be accountable for credit card theft because the credit card is a service controlled by the banks - but somehow, the charge backs are forced upon the retailer. Retailers, globally, whether physical or virtual, need to stand up to the banking system - that is the largest problem that all of this discussion leads to. The worst thief in this whole story are the banks - and whole society's bail them out :D

#18
Posted 06/30/2016 10:42 PM   
There is a vendor on EBay who is selling Mirror's Edge Catalyst for $29.95 plus $2.83 shipping. Buy it Now http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282061707959?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true This is the cheapest price I seen allkeyshop is $38.00 average. The vendor name is User ID 510barbosa78 (Feedback score 4372) E-bay in the US is very controlled.
There is a vendor on EBay who is selling Mirror's Edge Catalyst for $29.95 plus $2.83 shipping. Buy it Now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/282061707959?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

This is the cheapest price I seen allkeyshop is $38.00 average.

The vendor name is

User ID 510barbosa78 (Feedback score 4372)

E-bay in the US is very controlled.

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#19
Posted 06/30/2016 11:42 PM   
And 22.86 shipping :) For an email :D
And 22.86 shipping :) For an email :D

#20
Posted 07/01/2016 12:11 AM   
ummester, the difference in how the keys are sourced is important. G2A and Kinguin allow anyone on the internet to sell keys, without checking where they come from. This means G2A and Kinguin can say they're not responsible for where the keys come from. Sites like cdkeys source the keys themselves. That means they're directly providing them. If they were stealing keys, it would be much easier to get caught and shut down. So they have to get them from reputable sources.
ummester, the difference in how the keys are sourced is important.

G2A and Kinguin allow anyone on the internet to sell keys, without checking where they come from. This means G2A and Kinguin can say they're not responsible for where the keys come from.

Sites like cdkeys source the keys themselves. That means they're directly providing them. If they were stealing keys, it would be much easier to get caught and shut down. So they have to get them from reputable sources.

#21
Posted 07/01/2016 03:09 AM   
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]ummester, the difference in how the keys are sourced is important. G2A and Kinguin allow anyone on the internet to sell keys, without checking where they come from. This means G2A and Kinguin can say they're not responsible for where the keys come from. Sites like cdkeys source the keys themselves. That means they're directly providing them. If they were stealing keys, it would be much easier to get caught and shut down. So they have to get them from reputable sources.[/quote] Yes, so this is why I think the articles at the start of the OP show a certain kind of bias. They offer no alternative. G2A and Kinguin knowingly let stolen keys through (around 5%?) - that's not a very moral business practice but is it really any worse than our public officials doing deals with big business, or banks letting dodgy loans through to keep the market afloat? And, comparison of other moral corruption aside - why don't the articles and video offer a true alternative? If cdkeys genuinely sources it's own keys to weed out theft, surely that is a better option than piracy? The dev is still guaranteed to get something and the user still feels morally ok. This is why I say we need a list of what grey sellers try to avoid stolen keys - and that would be a much better thing for the article to provide than potentially painting them all with the same brush.
Pirateguybrush said:ummester, the difference in how the keys are sourced is important.

G2A and Kinguin allow anyone on the internet to sell keys, without checking where they come from. This means G2A and Kinguin can say they're not responsible for where the keys come from.

Sites like cdkeys source the keys themselves. That means they're directly providing them. If they were stealing keys, it would be much easier to get caught and shut down. So they have to get them from reputable sources.


Yes, so this is why I think the articles at the start of the OP show a certain kind of bias. They offer no alternative. G2A and Kinguin knowingly let stolen keys through (around 5%?) - that's not a very moral business practice but is it really any worse than our public officials doing deals with big business, or banks letting dodgy loans through to keep the market afloat? And, comparison of other moral corruption aside - why don't the articles and video offer a true alternative?

If cdkeys genuinely sources it's own keys to weed out theft, surely that is a better option than piracy? The dev is still guaranteed to get something and the user still feels morally ok.

This is why I say we need a list of what grey sellers try to avoid stolen keys - and that would be a much better thing for the article to provide than potentially painting them all with the same brush.

#22
Posted 07/01/2016 09:30 AM   
The article, and the devs aren't criticising all grey market sellers. Only the ones that allow users to sell keys to other users. Just stick to sites that don't allow that, and you're doing the best you can to avoid the shady ones.
The article, and the devs aren't criticising all grey market sellers. Only the ones that allow users to sell keys to other users.

Just stick to sites that don't allow that, and you're doing the best you can to avoid the shady ones.

#23
Posted 07/01/2016 01:27 PM   
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]The article, and the devs aren't criticising all grey market sellers. Only the ones that allow users to sell keys to other users. Just stick to sites that don't allow that, and you're doing the best you can to avoid the shady ones.[/quote] I think we are coming form different angles here Pirateguybrush, but kind of mean the same thing. No, the devs aren't critisicisng all grey market sellers but, by only criticising one and suggesting that piracy is better than it, the inference is that piracy is better then grey market purchasing across the board, making the articles unbalanced. I suggest that they should apply their little economic model something like: Buying from G2A worst for devs because it can cost devs money and still costs the gamer more than piracy. Pirating best for gamer, because its free, but no good for devs because devs make no money. Buy from CDKeys, best for both because it's cheaper for the gamer and the devs still get something. Buying locally, worst for the gamer because regional pricing is almost theft on par with G2A They need to include the non G2A grey sellers to present a balanced view. I've been gaming for a long time, since the C64 and have I been sourcing games from a variety of means for just as long. Back in the 90s, when buying a game came with multiple discs and manuals and maps and all sorts of things, local pricing made a lot of sense due to transport costs and so on. Now that the environment is almost entirely digital, local pricing is sorely outdated and grey sellers are the only option other than piracy for the consumer to stand up to it. The onus is not only on the consumer to adapt, nor is it solely on the consumer to be aware of fraudulent sites - it is also on the devs, publishers and distributors to adapt. In the big picture, G2A is more effective at forcing change than CDKeys, even if it takes immorality to achieve it - because G2A had a broader source base for consumer to take advantage of.
Pirateguybrush said:The article, and the devs aren't criticising all grey market sellers. Only the ones that allow users to sell keys to other users.

Just stick to sites that don't allow that, and you're doing the best you can to avoid the shady ones.


I think we are coming form different angles here Pirateguybrush, but kind of mean the same thing.

No, the devs aren't critisicisng all grey market sellers but, by only criticising one and suggesting that piracy is better than it, the inference is that piracy is better then grey market purchasing across the board, making the articles unbalanced.

I suggest that they should apply their little economic model something like:


Buying from G2A worst for devs because it can cost devs money and still costs the gamer more than piracy.

Pirating best for gamer, because its free, but no good for devs because devs make no money.

Buy from CDKeys, best for both because it's cheaper for the gamer and the devs still get something.

Buying locally, worst for the gamer because regional pricing is almost theft on par with G2A


They need to include the non G2A grey sellers to present a balanced view.

I've been gaming for a long time, since the C64 and have I been sourcing games from a variety of means for just as long. Back in the 90s, when buying a game came with multiple discs and manuals and maps and all sorts of things, local pricing made a lot of sense due to transport costs and so on. Now that the environment is almost entirely digital, local pricing is sorely outdated and grey sellers are the only option other than piracy for the consumer to stand up to it.

The onus is not only on the consumer to adapt, nor is it solely on the consumer to be aware of fraudulent sites - it is also on the devs, publishers and distributors to adapt. In the big picture, G2A is more effective at forcing change than CDKeys, even if it takes immorality to achieve it - because G2A had a broader source base for consumer to take advantage of.

#24
Posted 07/02/2016 04:59 AM   
Another developer who killed shared keys because of scammers. Interesting data point of scam being some 85 keys out of 120,000 sold. Still $2500 of chargebacks, so not trivial to the dev. https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/07/steam-key-giving-stopped-for-new-buyers/
Another developer who killed shared keys because of scammers. Interesting data point of scam being some 85 keys out of 120,000 sold. Still $2500 of chargebacks, so not trivial to the dev.


https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/07/steam-key-giving-stopped-for-new-buyers/

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#25
Posted 07/19/2016 06:19 AM   
[quote="bo3b"]Another developer who killed shared keys because of scammers. Interesting data point of scam being some 85 keys out of 120,000 sold. Still $2500 of chargebacks, so not trivial to the dev. https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/07/steam-key-giving-stopped-for-new-buyers/ [/quote] How were the keys stolen, the link doesn't say?
bo3b said:Another developer who killed shared keys because of scammers. Interesting data point of scam being some 85 keys out of 120,000 sold. Still $2500 of chargebacks, so not trivial to the dev.


https://ludeon.com/blog/2016/07/steam-key-giving-stopped-for-new-buyers/



How were the keys stolen, the link doesn't say?

#26
Posted 07/19/2016 03:46 PM   
It would have been via chargebacks on stolen credit cards.
It would have been via chargebacks on stolen credit cards.

#27
Posted 07/20/2016 10:39 AM   
My best guess is some of the 120,000 people they sold the game to had used stolen credit cards, and had already used the key. Then, since it's stolen, why not make a few bucks off the free key, so they drop it into grey-market. When the chargeback happens, they are long gone.
My best guess is some of the 120,000 people they sold the game to had used stolen credit cards, and had already used the key. Then, since it's stolen, why not make a few bucks off the free key, so they drop it into grey-market. When the chargeback happens, they are long gone.

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#28
Posted 07/20/2016 12:16 PM   
Here we have scammers themselves explaining how they do it. http://kotaku.com/g2a-scammer-explains-how-he-profited-off-stolen-indie-g-1784540664
Here we have scammers themselves explaining how they do it.


http://kotaku.com/g2a-scammer-explains-how-he-profited-off-stolen-indie-g-1784540664

#29
Posted 08/01/2016 09:17 AM   
Yea, so why aren't the banks in any way liable for charge backs? The credit card is a product developed by the banks, and yet the banks avoid all accountability for their own product when things go pear shaped and force it onto the developer or retailer. G2A are immoral because they don't check for scams - the banks are more immoral because they develop a system that can be scammed and then wipe their hands of all accountability.
Yea, so why aren't the banks in any way liable for charge backs? The credit card is a product developed by the banks, and yet the banks avoid all accountability for their own product when things go pear shaped and force it onto the developer or retailer.

G2A are immoral because they don't check for scams - the banks are more immoral because they develop a system that can be scammed and then wipe their hands of all accountability.

#30
Posted 08/01/2016 11:48 AM   
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