HDMI1.4 checkerboard for all! 3D Vision software fix here!
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[quote name='AustinTex' date='04 May 2011 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1304534662' post='1233469']
...I just ordered a new computer with a gtx 580 ($500 video card) in hopes that the checkerboard support is coming soon. I'll buy 3DTV Play once it is. So I'm supporting nvidia with my money and I add my name to the list of people eagerly awaiting checkerboard support to be added. :)
[/quote]

Well I too (like many other) own a GTX580, a 2010 Samsung 3D TV and I already bought the 3DTV Play driver. NVIDIA, I am so ready :-)
[quote name='AustinTex' date='04 May 2011 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1304534662' post='1233469']

...I just ordered a new computer with a gtx 580 ($500 video card) in hopes that the checkerboard support is coming soon. I'll buy 3DTV Play once it is. So I'm supporting nvidia with my money and I add my name to the list of people eagerly awaiting checkerboard support to be added. :)





Well I too (like many other) own a GTX580, a 2010 Samsung 3D TV and I already bought the 3DTV Play driver. NVIDIA, I am so ready :-)

Posted 05/04/2011 06:55 PM   
[quote name='AustinTex' date='04 May 2011 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1304534662' post='1233469']
Hopefully, Nvidia will have increased support for more implementations of 3D soon. Not sure what is taking so long, because programming this should not be that complicated if you already having other 3D implementations working.[/quote]
Nvidia has explained their decision to disable CB in 3DTV Play. Above all else, 3DTV Play must be 'seamless', convenient, no user intervention. 720P satisfies this requirement, no amount of protest by users is going to change this so as long as HDMI1.4 defaults to 720P framepacking, we will have only 720 FP, no checkerboard.
[quote]But I don't think complaining to Andrew or other Nvidia employees is as useful as kindly asking for help.[/quote]
Clearly, Andrew cannot be bullied into giving us CB. Equally clear is the fact that it doesn't take four months to modify the set up wizard. The decision to enable existing CB in 3DTV Play got derailed along the way. The only reason CB is available in 3D Vision is because HDMI1.3 defaults to CB.
[quote] I'll buy 3DTV Play once it is [CB]. So I'm supporting nvidia with my money and I add my name to the list of people eagerly awaiting checkerboard support to be added. :)
[/quote]
A more realistic hope is that HDMI1.5 TVs will allow for 1080P 3D gaming by default, no user intervention.

When products are being worked on, Nvidia announces a schedule. 3DTV Play was announced for Nov. 2010. gtx480, MArch 2010. Nvidia has no policy against announcing a schedule. If CB in 3DTV Play were being worked on, there would be a schedule and that schedule would be disclosed.

It's a shame that people must spend $160 on 3D Vision to get full rez 3D gaming without the annoying red overlay, but it's the only option we will have.
[quote name='AustinTex' date='04 May 2011 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1304534662' post='1233469']

Hopefully, Nvidia will have increased support for more implementations of 3D soon. Not sure what is taking so long, because programming this should not be that complicated if you already having other 3D implementations working.

Nvidia has explained their decision to disable CB in 3DTV Play. Above all else, 3DTV Play must be 'seamless', convenient, no user intervention. 720P satisfies this requirement, no amount of protest by users is going to change this so as long as HDMI1.4 defaults to 720P framepacking, we will have only 720 FP, no checkerboard.

But I don't think complaining to Andrew or other Nvidia employees is as useful as kindly asking for help.


Clearly, Andrew cannot be bullied into giving us CB. Equally clear is the fact that it doesn't take four months to modify the set up wizard. The decision to enable existing CB in 3DTV Play got derailed along the way. The only reason CB is available in 3D Vision is because HDMI1.3 defaults to CB.

I'll buy 3DTV Play once it is [CB]. So I'm supporting nvidia with my money and I add my name to the list of people eagerly awaiting checkerboard support to be added. :)



A more realistic hope is that HDMI1.5 TVs will allow for 1080P 3D gaming by default, no user intervention.



When products are being worked on, Nvidia announces a schedule. 3DTV Play was announced for Nov. 2010. gtx480, MArch 2010. Nvidia has no policy against announcing a schedule. If CB in 3DTV Play were being worked on, there would be a schedule and that schedule would be disclosed.



It's a shame that people must spend $160 on 3D Vision to get full rez 3D gaming without the annoying red overlay, but it's the only option we will have.

Posted 05/04/2011 09:23 PM   
Ack, not this thread again. Ok, had a chance to do some proper comparisons with 720p and half-res side-by-side. I used Metro 2033 and Mass Effect 2.

Clear winner is half-res, SBS. But by how much?

I went back and forth between the games and tried to determine all the differences. It was a pain in the butt, because i had trouble switching with the drivers, thus why its taken so long to respond, but I finally figured it out and was able to quickly switch back and forth quickly and I ended up switching back and forth more than twenty times. The biggest thing i noticed was the reduction in anti-aliasing, it was huge in many cases, especially in medium distanced objects and "half-res" is totally worth the option just for this alone, no question. Thats where the benefits ended for me. As much as i looked, I couldn't see a difference in anything outside or literally - "inside" the edges, i.e. a textured wall. As much a I tried, i just couldn't see any different besides the edges. In fact, I almost would have sworn in both games, that the SBS mode kind of ever so slightly blurred the image. This became a reacurring thought when loading up in 720p and trying to immediately look for differences, 720p seemed somehow the tiniest bit sharper. However, it was so slight it could have very easily been my mind playing tricks on me, a difference in the drivers, or settings, etc.

The biggest knock against SBS is twofold. The biggest one is the framerate, Metro 2033 being completely unplayable, however Mass Effect 2 had very high framerates, between 20 and 40 and I would definitely play in SBS mode. I could use a slightly faster card though. The other thing points to human nature: in using SBS and seeing the difference, only then was i made aware of just how many jaggies there were in 720p. I was blissfully unaware of them up until then and i would guess that most people are perfectly capable of getting used to them and will start to ignore them. I don't think it would effect the "core experience" very much when your focused on the experience, the story, and dangerous, the environment, where to go, etc. However this likely varies from person to person. I came before AA was invented. So for players used to high graphics levels with AA, the jaggies from 720p could be a lot more to take.

So visually, outside of any other factors, I'd say its 25% better. Or, I might make more sense to say its like adding 4x to 8x AA to 720p....

edit: and totally worth having in the drivers btw Nvidia. Aside from supporting Nvidia with their long time commitment to 3D, I regret my 3DTV Play purchase...
Ack, not this thread again. Ok, had a chance to do some proper comparisons with 720p and half-res side-by-side. I used Metro 2033 and Mass Effect 2.



Clear winner is half-res, SBS. But by how much?



I went back and forth between the games and tried to determine all the differences. It was a pain in the butt, because i had trouble switching with the drivers, thus why its taken so long to respond, but I finally figured it out and was able to quickly switch back and forth quickly and I ended up switching back and forth more than twenty times. The biggest thing i noticed was the reduction in anti-aliasing, it was huge in many cases, especially in medium distanced objects and "half-res" is totally worth the option just for this alone, no question. Thats where the benefits ended for me. As much as i looked, I couldn't see a difference in anything outside or literally - "inside" the edges, i.e. a textured wall. As much a I tried, i just couldn't see any different besides the edges. In fact, I almost would have sworn in both games, that the SBS mode kind of ever so slightly blurred the image. This became a reacurring thought when loading up in 720p and trying to immediately look for differences, 720p seemed somehow the tiniest bit sharper. However, it was so slight it could have very easily been my mind playing tricks on me, a difference in the drivers, or settings, etc.



The biggest knock against SBS is twofold. The biggest one is the framerate, Metro 2033 being completely unplayable, however Mass Effect 2 had very high framerates, between 20 and 40 and I would definitely play in SBS mode. I could use a slightly faster card though. The other thing points to human nature: in using SBS and seeing the difference, only then was i made aware of just how many jaggies there were in 720p. I was blissfully unaware of them up until then and i would guess that most people are perfectly capable of getting used to them and will start to ignore them. I don't think it would effect the "core experience" very much when your focused on the experience, the story, and dangerous, the environment, where to go, etc. However this likely varies from person to person. I came before AA was invented. So for players used to high graphics levels with AA, the jaggies from 720p could be a lot more to take.



So visually, outside of any other factors, I'd say its 25% better. Or, I might make more sense to say its like adding 4x to 8x AA to 720p....



edit: and totally worth having in the drivers btw Nvidia. Aside from supporting Nvidia with their long time commitment to 3D, I regret my 3DTV Play purchase...

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 05/07/2011 03:49 AM   
thanks for the evaluation which is especially useful because nobody seems to be gaming on anything other than Samsung for obvious reasons.
On a Samsung, the biggest difference is this over saturated 'blooming' effect in framepacking both 720P and 1080P that varies depending on the game. In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking. This is the unpleasant texture that Mike01 complained about in his thread. Maybe the Sony does not have this charateristic, hence your perception that 720P is sharper than CB 1080P native rez, a wildly counter intuitive suggestion.
Because Nvidia won't support SBS, you are denied the option of doing native rez 1080P so your only escape from scaled 720P gaming is alternative 3D drivers. Hopefully 2012 will see the end of crippling HDMI1.4 making this whole "native 1080P vs scaled 720P" argument a historical footnote that we will laugh about.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to report your findings.

PS. Were you using iZ3D drivers, or, TriDef?
thanks for the evaluation which is especially useful because nobody seems to be gaming on anything other than Samsung for obvious reasons.

On a Samsung, the biggest difference is this over saturated 'blooming' effect in framepacking both 720P and 1080P that varies depending on the game. In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking. This is the unpleasant texture that Mike01 complained about in his thread. Maybe the Sony does not have this charateristic, hence your perception that 720P is sharper than CB 1080P native rez, a wildly counter intuitive suggestion.

Because Nvidia won't support SBS, you are denied the option of doing native rez 1080P so your only escape from scaled 720P gaming is alternative 3D drivers. Hopefully 2012 will see the end of crippling HDMI1.4 making this whole "native 1080P vs scaled 720P" argument a historical footnote that we will laugh about.



Once again, thanks for taking the time to report your findings.



PS. Were you using iZ3D drivers, or, TriDef?

Posted 05/07/2011 04:42 AM   
[quote name='roller11' date='06 May 2011 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1304743365' post='1234330']
thanks for the evaluation which is especially useful because nobody seems to be gaming on anything other than Samsung for obvious reasons.
[/quote]
Do you have stock in Samsung? Would you tell someone that can save $500 bucks buying a Sharp instead of Samsung and using SBS with other drivers that they should still opt for a Samsung?

[quote]In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking.[/quote]
Luckily im able to test this out at 24hz. I can say without a doubt that 1080p framepacking looks better, being more clear with less jaggies, than SBS. How could you possibly come to this conclusion? 1080p allows for 1 full 1080p image per eye.
[quote]

Maybe the Sony does not have this charateristic, hence your perception that 720P is sharper than CB 1080P native rez, a wildly counter intuitive suggestion.
[/quote] FTR, I meant minutely sharper.

[quote]
PS. Were you using iZ3D drivers, or, TriDef?
[/quote]
TriDef, which did a better job in Mass Effect 2, helping out a few visual problems that Nvidia hasn't fixed yet(selection rectangles and some lighting)

Using the phrase "native res 1080p" to describe SBS is misleading. Would you describe the "[i]native[/i] resolution" of a 1920x1080 monitor as 960x1080?
[quote name='roller11' date='06 May 2011 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1304743365' post='1234330']

thanks for the evaluation which is especially useful because nobody seems to be gaming on anything other than Samsung for obvious reasons.



Do you have stock in Samsung? Would you tell someone that can save $500 bucks buying a Sharp instead of Samsung and using SBS with other drivers that they should still opt for a Samsung?



In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking.


Luckily im able to test this out at 24hz. I can say without a doubt that 1080p framepacking looks better, being more clear with less jaggies, than SBS. How could you possibly come to this conclusion? 1080p allows for 1 full 1080p image per eye.





Maybe the Sony does not have this charateristic, hence your perception that 720P is sharper than CB 1080P native rez, a wildly counter intuitive suggestion.

FTR, I meant minutely sharper.





PS. Were you using iZ3D drivers, or, TriDef?



TriDef, which did a better job in Mass Effect 2, helping out a few visual problems that Nvidia hasn't fixed yet(selection rectangles and some lighting)



Using the phrase "native res 1080p" to describe SBS is misleading. Would you describe the "native resolution" of a 1920x1080 monitor as 960x1080?

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 05/07/2011 04:18 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='07 May 2011 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1304785094' post='1234465']
Would you tell someone that can save $500 bucks buying a Sharp instead of Samsung and using SBS with other drivers that they should still opt for a Samsung?[/quote]
Your hypothetical amounts to "Is it worth an extra $500 to be able to use Nvidia drivers instead of iZ3D/TriDef?" This is a money decision, not a technical decision, so I would not advise them either way since native rez gaming results in both cases.

[quote]In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking.
Luckily im able to test this out at 24hz. I can say without a doubt that 1080p framepacking looks better, being more clear with less jaggies, than SBS. How could you possibly come to this conclusion?[/quote]
By a process known as 'vision'.
I find it laughable that you claim that scaled interpolated low res 720P is sharper than native rez 1080P with it's 1 to 1 mapping. Then you criticize me for saying that 1920x1080 CB looks better than 1920x1080 framepacking.

[quote] Would you describe the "[i]native[/i] resolution" of a 1920x1080 monitor as 960x1080?
[/quote]
No, 960x1080 is not one to one mapping. CB 1920x1080 is one to one mapping on a 1920x1080 grid, so it is native rez.

Did you try Frame Sequential under TriDef/iZ3D? I'd really like to know if that works with Sony.
[quote name='Libertine' date='07 May 2011 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1304785094' post='1234465']

Would you tell someone that can save $500 bucks buying a Sharp instead of Samsung and using SBS with other drivers that they should still opt for a Samsung?

Your hypothetical amounts to "Is it worth an extra $500 to be able to use Nvidia drivers instead of iZ3D/TriDef?" This is a money decision, not a technical decision, so I would not advise them either way since native rez gaming results in both cases.



In fact, what you are calling "half rez" looks better than "full rez" 1080P framepacking.

Luckily im able to test this out at 24hz. I can say without a doubt that 1080p framepacking looks better, being more clear with less jaggies, than SBS. How could you possibly come to this conclusion?


By a process known as 'vision'.

I find it laughable that you claim that scaled interpolated low res 720P is sharper than native rez 1080P with it's 1 to 1 mapping. Then you criticize me for saying that 1920x1080 CB looks better than 1920x1080 framepacking.



Would you describe the "native resolution" of a 1920x1080 monitor as 960x1080?



No, 960x1080 is not one to one mapping. CB 1920x1080 is one to one mapping on a 1920x1080 grid, so it is native rez.



Did you try Frame Sequential under TriDef/iZ3D? I'd really like to know if that works with Sony.

Posted 05/07/2011 11:43 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='07 May 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1304811809' post='1234601']
Your hypothetical amounts to "Is it worth an extra $500 to be able to use Nvidia drivers instead of iZ3D/TriDef?" This is a money decision, not a technical decision, so I would not advise them either way since native rez gaming results in both cases.
[/quote]Some people spend days or weeks researching their choices, all im getting at is isn't it worth it not to state your opinions as fact? Which you do 10 times a day. Im not saying don't speak your mind, but why not preface your statements with IMO. After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a [i]somewhat[/i] finer picture at medium distances,[b] thats it[/b]....

[quote]
I find it laughable that you claim that scaled interpolated low res 720P is sharper than native rez 1080P with it's 1 to 1 mapping. Then you criticize me for saying that 1920x1080 CB looks better than 1920x1080 framepacking.
[/quote]
I don't know why you'd laugh, your comparing the amount of information your brain forms into single picture from 2 full 1920x1080 images vs 2 960x1080 images. Non scaled, native res.... What might have been happening when 720p seemed finer to me is that it had a higher "temporal resolution", since 720p had higher framerates, it could have been a lot of things, nor am i even sure my mind wasn't playing tricks on me, thats how miniscule it was.

[quote]
No, 960x1080 is not one to one mapping. CB 1920x1080 is one to one mapping on a 1920x1080 grid, so it is native rez.
[/quote]I think its very misleading to say CB is native 1080p because people do not have in mind 960x1080 when they hear "1080p" or "native 1080p".

[quote]
Did you try Frame Sequential under TriDef/iZ3D? I'd really like to know if that works with Sony.
[/quote]No, ill try it.
[quote name='roller11' date='07 May 2011 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1304811809' post='1234601']

Your hypothetical amounts to "Is it worth an extra $500 to be able to use Nvidia drivers instead of iZ3D/TriDef?" This is a money decision, not a technical decision, so I would not advise them either way since native rez gaming results in both cases.

Some people spend days or weeks researching their choices, all im getting at is isn't it worth it not to state your opinions as fact? Which you do 10 times a day. Im not saying don't speak your mind, but why not preface your statements with IMO. After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a somewhat finer picture at medium distances, thats it....





I find it laughable that you claim that scaled interpolated low res 720P is sharper than native rez 1080P with it's 1 to 1 mapping. Then you criticize me for saying that 1920x1080 CB looks better than 1920x1080 framepacking.



I don't know why you'd laugh, your comparing the amount of information your brain forms into single picture from 2 full 1920x1080 images vs 2 960x1080 images. Non scaled, native res.... What might have been happening when 720p seemed finer to me is that it had a higher "temporal resolution", since 720p had higher framerates, it could have been a lot of things, nor am i even sure my mind wasn't playing tricks on me, thats how miniscule it was.





No, 960x1080 is not one to one mapping. CB 1920x1080 is one to one mapping on a 1920x1080 grid, so it is native rez.

I think its very misleading to say CB is native 1080p because people do not have in mind 960x1080 when they hear "1080p" or "native 1080p".





Did you try Frame Sequential under TriDef/iZ3D? I'd really like to know if that works with Sony.

No, ill try it.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 05/08/2011 12:49 AM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='07 May 2011 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1304815789' post='1234613']
After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a [i]somewhat[/i] finer picture at medium distances,[b] thats it[/b].... [/quote]
If that's true, then I say your Sony is processing pixels the same as the Samsung does when the Sammy is in video mode (see below). In other words, your SBS is being scaled too so it looks like scaled 720P. Remember, I 3D gamed on a Sony like yours for 5 weeks in 720P, so I know what I'm talking about. I loved everything about it except for the image quality in 3D gaming, that's why I ditched it for a native rez Samsung.

[quote]I don't know why you'd laugh, your comparing the amount of information your brain forms into single picture from 2 full 1920x1080 images vs 2 960x1080 images. [/qoute]
A composite frame of CB is 1920x1080, exact 1 to 1 mapping native rez. 1 to 1 mapping is the dictionary definition of 'native rez'. Framepacking is 2x 1920x1080 per frame. My theory is that FP looks odd because despite the 1920x1080 rez, it is being scaled. This can be visually demonstrated by going into Samsung menu and selecting either of the two available modes in which pixel processing is implemented, video (default) or PC. Only by selecting the PC mode do you get a non-scaled image. If while gaming you set your 3D mode to CB or frame sequential, you stay in PC mode. But if 3D mode= FP, the TV automatically jumps to video mode pixel processing and the image appears to be scaled. Others have noticed the same thing when they change their PP mode, it is obvious when you look at your desktop. Point is, both PP modes are 1920x1080 but they look very different. Since a vertical line in PC mode is much finer, sharper, than the same line in video mode, I think that video mode is using some kind of scaling which averages adjacent pixels which is what you would want for broadcast video. That's why Samsung allows you to choose PC mode, but it jumps out of PC mode when FP is invoked.
[quote]What might have been happening when 720p seemed finer to me is that it had a higher "temporal resolution", since 720p had higher framerates,[/quote]
One flaw with the 'temporal resolution' theory: the 720P is scaled, not native, which trumps any improvement higher framerate may afford. In 720P, 75% of the pixels don't line up on the native fixed grid, so they must be approximated, that's why 720P looks so bad. Of course only a person who has eyewitnessed both Sony 720P and CB Samsung (such as myself) can make this judgement. A person like you who has no idea what CB on a Samsung looks like is in no position to comment.
[quote]I think its very misleading to say CB is native 1080p because people do not have in mind 960x1080 when they hear "1080p" or "native 1080p". .[/quote]
The opposite is true, to call a 1920x1080 composite image 'half rez' is misleading. That's because when you say "960x1080", that implies a 1 to 2 mapping which by definition is not native rez. it is scaled. But CB 1920x1080 is 1 to 1 mapping (not 1 to 2) on both 960x1080 refreshes, *every* pixel lines up on the grid, so it isn't 'scaled' by any definition or context. The fact that it took two refreshes to create the 1 to 1 1920x1080 map doesn't detract from the reality of native rez. Deny it all you want, but Samsung is obviously a better choice for 3D gaming due to the superiority of 1 to 1 native rez mapping, and there's no arguing that scaled low res video frames look worse than native res 1920x1080 video frames. Even though 720 framepack is 2x 1280x720, 75% of the pixels don't line up on the grid, and that's an inescapable mathematical fact, not an opinion.
[quote name='Libertine' date='07 May 2011 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1304815789' post='1234613']

After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a somewhat finer picture at medium distances, thats it....

If that's true, then I say your Sony is processing pixels the same as the Samsung does when the Sammy is in video mode (see below). In other words, your SBS is being scaled too so it looks like scaled 720P. Remember, I 3D gamed on a Sony like yours for 5 weeks in 720P, so I know what I'm talking about. I loved everything about it except for the image quality in 3D gaming, that's why I ditched it for a native rez Samsung.



I don't know why you'd laugh, your comparing the amount of information your brain forms into single picture from 2 full 1920x1080 images vs 2 960x1080 images. [/qoute]

A composite frame of CB is 1920x1080, exact 1 to 1 mapping native rez. 1 to 1 mapping is the dictionary definition of 'native rez'. Framepacking is 2x 1920x1080 per frame. My theory is that FP looks odd because despite the 1920x1080 rez, it is being scaled. This can be visually demonstrated by going into Samsung menu and selecting either of the two available modes in which pixel processing is implemented, video (default) or PC. Only by selecting the PC mode do you get a non-scaled image. If while gaming you set your 3D mode to CB or frame sequential, you stay in PC mode. But if 3D mode= FP, the TV automatically jumps to video mode pixel processing and the image appears to be scaled. Others have noticed the same thing when they change their PP mode, it is obvious when you look at your desktop. Point is, both PP modes are 1920x1080 but they look very different. Since a vertical line in PC mode is much finer, sharper, than the same line in video mode, I think that video mode is using some kind of scaling which averages adjacent pixels which is what you would want for broadcast video. That's why Samsung allows you to choose PC mode, but it jumps out of PC mode when FP is invoked.

What might have been happening when 720p seemed finer to me is that it had a higher "temporal resolution", since 720p had higher framerates,


One flaw with the 'temporal resolution' theory: the 720P is scaled, not native, which trumps any improvement higher framerate may afford. In 720P, 75% of the pixels don't line up on the native fixed grid, so they must be approximated, that's why 720P looks so bad. Of course only a person who has eyewitnessed both Sony 720P and CB Samsung (such as myself) can make this judgement. A person like you who has no idea what CB on a Samsung looks like is in no position to comment.

I think its very misleading to say CB is native 1080p because people do not have in mind 960x1080 when they hear "1080p" or "native 1080p". .


The opposite is true, to call a 1920x1080 composite image 'half rez' is misleading. That's because when you say "960x1080", that implies a 1 to 2 mapping which by definition is not native rez. it is scaled. But CB 1920x1080 is 1 to 1 mapping (not 1 to 2) on both 960x1080 refreshes, *every* pixel lines up on the grid, so it isn't 'scaled' by any definition or context. The fact that it took two refreshes to create the 1 to 1 1920x1080 map doesn't detract from the reality of native rez. Deny it all you want, but Samsung is obviously a better choice for 3D gaming due to the superiority of 1 to 1 native rez mapping, and there's no arguing that scaled low res video frames look worse than native res 1920x1080 video frames. Even though 720 framepack is 2x 1280x720, 75% of the pixels don't line up on the grid, and that's an inescapable mathematical fact, not an opinion.

Posted 05/08/2011 06:04 AM   
I forgot you stated that 1080p framepacking is scaled. Do you have a link to support that?
I forgot you stated that 1080p framepacking is scaled. Do you have a link to support that?

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 05/08/2011 07:27 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='08 May 2011 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1304882827' post='1234893']
I forgot you stated that 1080p framepacking is scaled. Do you have a link to support that?
[/quote]
No, I can't get any info from Samsung on this, no surprise.

HOWEVER...I just duplicated your reported results! re:

"After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a somewhat finer picture at medium distances, thats it...."

I should have done this experiment long ago. I installed the iZ3D drivers, set the mode to SBS and set my Samsung pixel processing mode to 'video', the default (I normally use PC PP). I launched BulletStorm and made virtually the same observation as you, and basically, it looks like crap vs PC PP. This is the smoking gun. Just as you say, when in video PP mode, SBS 1920x1080 looks little different from 720P framepacking except for noticeable difference in jaggies, your description is spot on. And if I compare 1080P framepack to 1080P SBS (what you're calling 'half rez') the difference is very small indeed, both look pretty bad vs PC PP mode. The only variable between great looking vs crap is the pixel processing mode, just as I've been saying all along. But it was just a theory, now I have direct visual proof.
So it's obvious what's happening. Even though PC PP mode is set in the TV, Launching in framepack overrides this and forces video PP. If launch is SBS, CB, or frame sequential, PC PP mode is not overridden. This is obvious in 2D desktop. 1920x1080 looks distinctly better in PC PP Mode than in video PP mode. Samsung is well aware of this difference between PC apps and broadcast video, so they offered two distinct modes. Where they messed up is PC is overridden when Framepacking is invoked. I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that framepack is a mandatory mode, so video PP is automatically invoked.
[quote name='Libertine' date='08 May 2011 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1304882827' post='1234893']

I forgot you stated that 1080p framepacking is scaled. Do you have a link to support that?



No, I can't get any info from Samsung on this, no surprise.



HOWEVER...I just duplicated your reported results! re:



"After switching back and forth over 20 times, half-res SBS looks like 4-8x AA was applied to 720p and "maybe" a somewhat finer picture at medium distances, thats it...."



I should have done this experiment long ago. I installed the iZ3D drivers, set the mode to SBS and set my Samsung pixel processing mode to 'video', the default (I normally use PC PP). I launched BulletStorm and made virtually the same observation as you, and basically, it looks like crap vs PC PP. This is the smoking gun. Just as you say, when in video PP mode, SBS 1920x1080 looks little different from 720P framepacking except for noticeable difference in jaggies, your description is spot on. And if I compare 1080P framepack to 1080P SBS (what you're calling 'half rez') the difference is very small indeed, both look pretty bad vs PC PP mode. The only variable between great looking vs crap is the pixel processing mode, just as I've been saying all along. But it was just a theory, now I have direct visual proof.

So it's obvious what's happening. Even though PC PP mode is set in the TV, Launching in framepack overrides this and forces video PP. If launch is SBS, CB, or frame sequential, PC PP mode is not overridden. This is obvious in 2D desktop. 1920x1080 looks distinctly better in PC PP Mode than in video PP mode. Samsung is well aware of this difference between PC apps and broadcast video, so they offered two distinct modes. Where they messed up is PC is overridden when Framepacking is invoked. I suspect the reason has to do with the fact that framepack is a mandatory mode, so video PP is automatically invoked.

Posted 05/08/2011 09:05 PM   
I just recently bought a 2011 series samsung plasma pn43d490. No matter what i do i cant seem to get the tv in pc mode. I cant use any of the pc options in my menu or find a way to display the missing 3d modes checkerboard or pageflipping. Only ones i see are sbs or top and bottom. I have it connected via hdmi 1.4 from my gtx 460m to the hdmi 1/dvi port on the back of the tv. I have the newest drivers with nvidia 3dvision and 3dtv play even with rollermod I cant figure out how to get into pc mode on my tv any help would be greatly appreciated. I bought this tv for gaming and have 30 days to return if i dont like it. So Im trying to figure this out to see if maybe i need to upgrade.
I just recently bought a 2011 series samsung plasma pn43d490. No matter what i do i cant seem to get the tv in pc mode. I cant use any of the pc options in my menu or find a way to display the missing 3d modes checkerboard or pageflipping. Only ones i see are sbs or top and bottom. I have it connected via hdmi 1.4 from my gtx 460m to the hdmi 1/dvi port on the back of the tv. I have the newest drivers with nvidia 3dvision and 3dtv play even with rollermod I cant figure out how to get into pc mode on my tv any help would be greatly appreciated. I bought this tv for gaming and have 30 days to return if i dont like it. So Im trying to figure this out to see if maybe i need to upgrade.

Posted 06/03/2011 01:32 AM   
Roller briefly went over how he did it somewhere i thought, i can't remember, but you might search the forum if your in a hurry.
Roller briefly went over how he did it somewhere i thought, i can't remember, but you might search the forum if your in a hurry.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

Posted 06/03/2011 01:40 AM   
If I'm not mistaken Roller said that the 2011 Samsung 3D TVs no longer supports Checkerboard and Frame Sequential (page flipping) modes. That's why you can't find it I think.
Unfortunately I think you may be stuck with 3DTV Play. I haven't seem a 2011 Samsung TV yet, but I heard they have less ghosting issues and better image quality, but I would still prefer the 2010 models considering 2011 models don't support checkerboard and frame sequential modes, it makes a huge difference for 3D gaming. I think D8000 Samsung models still support CB and FS and are the only 2011 models that have this feature. I think Samsung should keep supporting these modes until HDMI 1.5 standard is released, but I guess only high end users will take advtantage of rollermod, so they don't give a damn.
If I'm not mistaken Roller said that the 2011 Samsung 3D TVs no longer supports Checkerboard and Frame Sequential (page flipping) modes. That's why you can't find it I think.

Unfortunately I think you may be stuck with 3DTV Play. I haven't seem a 2011 Samsung TV yet, but I heard they have less ghosting issues and better image quality, but I would still prefer the 2010 models considering 2011 models don't support checkerboard and frame sequential modes, it makes a huge difference for 3D gaming. I think D8000 Samsung models still support CB and FS and are the only 2011 models that have this feature. I think Samsung should keep supporting these modes until HDMI 1.5 standard is released, but I guess only high end users will take advtantage of rollermod, so they don't give a damn.

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Posted 06/03/2011 02:44 AM   
i called support they are going to call me tomorrow the technical office is closed. She says the 3d on 2011 models is automatic. It will detect the signal being put to the tv and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is false as i can go to youtube and go through all the modes using the tvs auto 3d and none of them work. The only modes i can get to work is if i output 2d signal to the tv using sbs or top and bottom and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is useless. I bought this tv to play 3d games on a bigger screen. As my laptop asus g73jw-3de is only a 17.3 inch and gets old.
i called support they are going to call me tomorrow the technical office is closed. She says the 3d on 2011 models is automatic. It will detect the signal being put to the tv and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is false as i can go to youtube and go through all the modes using the tvs auto 3d and none of them work. The only modes i can get to work is if i output 2d signal to the tv using sbs or top and bottom and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is useless. I bought this tv to play 3d games on a bigger screen. As my laptop asus g73jw-3de is only a 17.3 inch and gets old.

Posted 06/03/2011 03:57 AM   
[quote name='quicksilv312' date='02 June 2011 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1307073451' post='1246418']
i called support they are going to call me tomorrow the technical office is closed. She says the 3d on 2011 models is automatic. It will detect the signal being put to the tv and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is false as i can go to youtube and go through all the modes using the tvs auto 3d and none of them work. The only modes i can get to work is if i output 2d signal to the tv using sbs or top and bottom and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is useless. I bought this tv to play 3d games on a bigger screen. As my laptop asus g73jw-3de is only a 17.3 inch and gets old.
[/quote]
Quick,
Hopefully you are within your return period, none of the 2011 plasmas support CB, top bottom, or frame sequential. The tech support lady was right, but only regarding framepacking, the mandatory mode for all 3DTVs. Auto selection of 3D mode does not work for any other format, you must manually put the TV in the correct mode for CB, SBS, etc.

The best you can do is set your 2D pixel processing mode to PC mode (Video is default). This makes a gigantic difference in 2D so it's worth the 30 second effort. To put your TV in PC mode, make sure you're connected to HDMI1/DVI on your back panel, I think it's labeled "DVI". Hit 'source' on your remote then 'tools' and then navigate to the HDMI1/DVI input. Go to the list of labels and select either 'PC' or 'DVI PC' and notice whether or not the TV blanks for a second when you choose either of these two modes. If it does, note the look of your desktop, especially text files and see the improvement of PC mode. This is why you want to game in checkerboard mode, 3DTV Play auto switches out of PC mode and into undesireable Video mode overriding your settings.

If you are within your return period, you can swap this TV for a 2011 D7000/D8000 LED model, they are the only ones that support CB.
[quote name='quicksilv312' date='02 June 2011 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1307073451' post='1246418']

i called support they are going to call me tomorrow the technical office is closed. She says the 3d on 2011 models is automatic. It will detect the signal being put to the tv and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is false as i can go to youtube and go through all the modes using the tvs auto 3d and none of them work. The only modes i can get to work is if i output 2d signal to the tv using sbs or top and bottom and change the 3d mode accordingly. This is useless. I bought this tv to play 3d games on a bigger screen. As my laptop asus g73jw-3de is only a 17.3 inch and gets old.



Quick,

Hopefully you are within your return period, none of the 2011 plasmas support CB, top bottom, or frame sequential. The tech support lady was right, but only regarding framepacking, the mandatory mode for all 3DTVs. Auto selection of 3D mode does not work for any other format, you must manually put the TV in the correct mode for CB, SBS, etc.



The best you can do is set your 2D pixel processing mode to PC mode (Video is default). This makes a gigantic difference in 2D so it's worth the 30 second effort. To put your TV in PC mode, make sure you're connected to HDMI1/DVI on your back panel, I think it's labeled "DVI". Hit 'source' on your remote then 'tools' and then navigate to the HDMI1/DVI input. Go to the list of labels and select either 'PC' or 'DVI PC' and notice whether or not the TV blanks for a second when you choose either of these two modes. If it does, note the look of your desktop, especially text files and see the improvement of PC mode. This is why you want to game in checkerboard mode, 3DTV Play auto switches out of PC mode and into undesireable Video mode overriding your settings.



If you are within your return period, you can swap this TV for a 2011 D7000/D8000 LED model, they are the only ones that support CB.

Posted 06/03/2011 04:37 AM   
  14 / 20    
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