[quote name='SichtWechsel' post='961468' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:53 PM']11. What about [b]GHOSTING AT THE TOP OF THE SCREEN[/b] ??? I wrote to Samsung and they said: "That's a problem, results from the Nvidia Driver!"
Will there be a fix ?? A update ??? Why is that problem manifesting ??? Don't get me wrong: but to hold my eyes strictly away from the top of the screen, can't be the solution !!![/quote]
That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD
[quote name='SichtWechsel' post='961468' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:53 PM']11. What about GHOSTING AT THE TOP OF THE SCREEN ??? I wrote to Samsung and they said: "That's a problem, results from the Nvidia Driver!"
Will there be a fix ?? A update ??? Why is that problem manifesting ??? Don't get me wrong: but to hold my eyes strictly away from the top of the screen, can't be the solution !!!
That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
[quote name='SichtWechsel' post='961468' date='Dec 8 2009, 02:53 PM']11. What about [b]GHOSTING AT THE TOP OF THE SCREEN[/b] ???[/quote]
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses).[/quote]
I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
[quote name='SichtWechsel' post='961468' date='Dec 8 2009, 02:53 PM']11. What about GHOSTING AT THE TOP OF THE SCREEN ???
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses).
I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD
are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
[quote name='quadrophoeniX' post='961547' date='Dec 8 2009, 10:19 AM']I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)[/quote]
I agree as most of the post have issues that are already made it to the first page but just worded differently. Really Nvidia should be able to read the 1st post and work from there... =)
As Amorphous has said it needs to be quick and technical not emotional for them to be able to handle this quick and with profession.
I have seen many ghosting post but it is already on the front page but if you really do think I need to word it differently please reply or send a PM.
I am making the front page list as non-emotional as possible even though we are all passionate about our 3D. But keep in mind I can not have a 4 page story for each issue.
That being said its great that is happening for us 3D users and appreciate each view and reply in thread with the utmost respect.
Ghosting is a major and might be caused by a few different reasons but most veterans around here already know the technical reason of why it is happening.
But I can added smaller bullet points for possible cause of issues... What do you think?
[quote name='quadrophoeniX' post='961547' date='Dec 8 2009, 10:19 AM']I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
I agree as most of the post have issues that are already made it to the first page but just worded differently. Really Nvidia should be able to read the 1st post and work from there... =)
As Amorphous has said it needs to be quick and technical not emotional for them to be able to handle this quick and with profession.
I have seen many ghosting post but it is already on the front page but if you really do think I need to word it differently please reply or send a PM.
I am making the front page list as non-emotional as possible even though we are all passionate about our 3D. But keep in mind I can not have a 4 page story for each issue.
That being said its great that is happening for us 3D users and appreciate each view and reply in thread with the utmost respect.
Ghosting is a major and might be caused by a few different reasons but most veterans around here already know the technical reason of why it is happening.
But I can added smaller bullet points for possible cause of issues... What do you think?
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 06:06 AM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 06:06 AM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD
Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961439' date='Dec 8 2009, 11:00 PM']3. When will [b]user controlled software sync of glasses timing[/b] (GlassesDelayMinus, GlassesDelayPlus and GlassesSwitchDelay) be re-enabled? ([i]Although I've only ranked this issue third because the above two probably affect more people in total, for many projector users like myself and for those users of the bundled monitors with timing related problems this is easily the most important missing/broken feature of the drivers as evidenced by [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=89261"]this thread[/url] which has 12,000+ views. Fixing it would transform the quality of the 3D Vision experience for a very large number of users[/i]).[/quote]
It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
[quote name='rkuo' post='961787' date='Dec 9 2009, 10:35 AM']Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.[/quote]
It should be said again that [b]the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners[/b]. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961439' date='Dec 8 2009, 11:00 PM']3. When will user controlled software sync of glasses timing (GlassesDelayMinus, GlassesDelayPlus and GlassesSwitchDelay) be re-enabled? (Although I've only ranked this issue third because the above two probably affect more people in total, for many projector users like myself and for those users of the bundled monitors with timing related problems this is easily the most important missing/broken feature of the drivers as evidenced by this thread which has 12,000+ views. Fixing it would transform the quality of the 3D Vision experience for a very large number of users).
It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
[quote name='rkuo' post='961787' date='Dec 9 2009, 10:35 AM']Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
It should be said again that the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 8 2009, 04:17 PM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
It should be said again that [b]the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners[/b]. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.[/quote]
Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 8 2009, 04:17 PM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
It should be said again that the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
[quote name='quadrophoeniX' post='961547' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:19 PM']And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)[/quote]
Even after seven years of waiting for some of these features, I'm still an optimist. A somewhat bitter and jaded optimist admittedly, but an optimist nonetheless :).
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :][/quote]
It seems that only a minority of the bundled monitors suffer from this problem so either those units are taking longer to refresh the screen (which seems technically unlikely) or they're taking the same length of time to refresh but the glasses aren't quite in sync (and so the problem could be fixed by manual sync control). DLPs use a totally different method of refreshing the screen so if a DLP was slightly out of sync you'd see subtle colour differences in each eye or increased ghosting of certain colours over the entire screen, rather than a horizontal strip with reversed 3D/severe ghosting.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 9 2009, 12:17 AM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.[/quote]
It seems strange that there would have been hotkeys for both 'GlassesDelayMinus' and 'GlassesDelayPlus' if all they did was swap eyes rather than delay or advance the shuttering by small increments (after all, a single hotkey would have sufficed for a swap eye function). In any case, I totally agree that fine control of sync is what we need.
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:48 AM']Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.[/quote]
Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD
[quote name='quadrophoeniX' post='961547' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:19 PM']And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
Even after seven years of waiting for some of these features, I'm still an optimist. A somewhat bitter and jaded optimist admittedly, but an optimist nonetheless :).
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
It seems that only a minority of the bundled monitors suffer from this problem so either those units are taking longer to refresh the screen (which seems technically unlikely) or they're taking the same length of time to refresh but the glasses aren't quite in sync (and so the problem could be fixed by manual sync control). DLPs use a totally different method of refreshing the screen so if a DLP was slightly out of sync you'd see subtle colour differences in each eye or increased ghosting of certain colours over the entire screen, rather than a horizontal strip with reversed 3D/severe ghosting.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 9 2009, 12:17 AM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
It seems strange that there would have been hotkeys for both 'GlassesDelayMinus' and 'GlassesDelayPlus' if all they did was swap eyes rather than delay or advance the shuttering by small increments (after all, a single hotkey would have sufficed for a swap eye function). In any case, I totally agree that fine control of sync is what we need.
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:48 AM']Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 06:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :][/quote]
Yes and no. It [i]is[/i] a sync problem [i]caused[/i] by manufacturing tolerances/firmware differencies of the monitor. "Syncing" means nothing else than bringing 2 speeds (monitor and glasses in this particular case) together ("synchronos" = same time).
While the timing on the monitor is set in stone with hardware and tolerances and samsung apparently cannot control the problem in manufacturing, it, however, could be "easy" for nvidia to compensate this (and with that for ALL other displays, no matter wether TFT, DLP or whatever) on the driver domain as explained in detail [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=152118&view=findpost&p=958367"]here[/url].
"Delay" and "Duty" added in addition to the select box containing "3D vision/page flip", "DLP/checkerboard" and "3Discover/anaglyph" and sync rates ranging down to 60Hz (the high refresh rate is nothing more than a complete arbitrary limitation) would bring general and global support for all and every single display available now and in the future (such as the yet to be introduced Bravia TVs - well planar and interlaced aside, but nvidia could add these at a later point). To compensate for paralax misalignment a simple and definately easy to implement "swap L/R" button should suffice - which also would come in handy for reverted anaglyphs.
As I suggested priorily these could be tucked away in an "expert settings" panel layer to not confuse S3D noobs and causual users who would only need to pick their type of display.
All this relates to the 2 main issues "ghosting on officially supported displays" as "sync problems" which so become 1 issue, I personally would list as "sync misalignment/ghosting".
Having said this I would recommend to continue everything related to ghosting on the 120Hz monitors in [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=89261"]this thread[/url]. As much as I understand the comfort in using a stickified thread, this goes to much OT.
I do not know whether it is feasable for this forum or the admins but maybe we could have stickified threads for "generic 120Hz monitor users - a HowTo and problems", "DLP users - a HowTo and problems", "generic CRT users - a HowTo and problems". These could contain an updated list of available models known to work by the users and and links to related threads (such as the [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=89261"]"top-of-screen-ghosting-on-Sammy-120Hz-LCD-thread"[/url] or the undying [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=98067"]"Vesa-cable-not-included-in-the-European-version-pinout-thread"[/url]
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 06:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
Yes and no. It is a sync problem caused by manufacturing tolerances/firmware differencies of the monitor. "Syncing" means nothing else than bringing 2 speeds (monitor and glasses in this particular case) together ("synchronos" = same time).
While the timing on the monitor is set in stone with hardware and tolerances and samsung apparently cannot control the problem in manufacturing, it, however, could be "easy" for nvidia to compensate this (and with that for ALL other displays, no matter wether TFT, DLP or whatever) on the driver domain as explained in detail here.
"Delay" and "Duty" added in addition to the select box containing "3D vision/page flip", "DLP/checkerboard" and "3Discover/anaglyph" and sync rates ranging down to 60Hz (the high refresh rate is nothing more than a complete arbitrary limitation) would bring general and global support for all and every single display available now and in the future (such as the yet to be introduced Bravia TVs - well planar and interlaced aside, but nvidia could add these at a later point). To compensate for paralax misalignment a simple and definately easy to implement "swap L/R" button should suffice - which also would come in handy for reverted anaglyphs.
As I suggested priorily these could be tucked away in an "expert settings" panel layer to not confuse S3D noobs and causual users who would only need to pick their type of display.
All this relates to the 2 main issues "ghosting on officially supported displays" as "sync problems" which so become 1 issue, I personally would list as "sync misalignment/ghosting".
Having said this I would recommend to continue everything related to ghosting on the 120Hz monitors in this thread. As much as I understand the comfort in using a stickified thread, this goes to much OT.
I do not know whether it is feasable for this forum or the admins but maybe we could have stickified threads for "generic 120Hz monitor users - a HowTo and problems", "DLP users - a HowTo and problems", "generic CRT users - a HowTo and problems". These could contain an updated list of available models known to work by the users and and links to related threads (such as the "top-of-screen-ghosting-on-Sammy-120Hz-LCD-thread" or the undying "Vesa-cable-not-included-in-the-European-version-pinout-thread"
great feed back on this post and i hope its all taken into consideration , and if the mods could somehow tell us if they are sending this information to higher ups
and if so we should actually start making more posts like this but actually make it weekly or at least bi weekly it would be nice
great feed back on this post and i hope its all taken into consideration , and if the mods could somehow tell us if they are sending this information to higher ups
and if so we should actually start making more posts like this but actually make it weekly or at least bi weekly it would be nice
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 12:48 PM']Worse for who? [b]I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. [/b]I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. [b]It's just worse in certain games.[/b] I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.[/quote]
These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='962390' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:05 PM']Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 12:48 PM']Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='962390' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:05 PM']Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='962864' date='Dec 10 2009, 04:02 PM']These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
SPOT ON.[/quote]
I've seen similar problems, but for me it depends very heavily on the scene in a particular game. Looking forward to what you have to show.
Also, I run at 110 Hz, which brings down the top/bottom ghosting issue a little from the 120Hz setting without flickering impairing the experience (which 100Hz does for me). What refresh rate are you using?
[quote name='BigDubs' post='962864' date='Dec 10 2009, 04:02 PM']These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
SPOT ON.
I've seen similar problems, but for me it depends very heavily on the scene in a particular game. Looking forward to what you have to show.
Also, I run at 110 Hz, which brings down the top/bottom ghosting issue a little from the 120Hz setting without flickering impairing the experience (which 100Hz does for me). What refresh rate are you using?
Let's leave discussion of the issues/solutions in the source threads. Let' keep this thread as database for issues that are affecting users.
Amorphous
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Can we scratch the DLP / CRT detection issue from the list? those who had the problems should test and give feedback for the new [i]Geforce[/i] beta drivers...
Can we scratch the DLP / CRT detection issue from the list? those who had the problems should test and give feedback for the new Geforce beta drivers...
Will there be a fix ?? A update ??? Why is that problem manifesting ??? Don't get me wrong: but to hold my eyes strictly away from the top of the screen, can't be the solution !!![/quote]
That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD
Will there be a fix ?? A update ??? Why is that problem manifesting ??? Don't get me wrong: but to hold my eyes strictly away from the top of the screen, can't be the solution !!!
That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses). I agree, it's a huge problem and it's the one that I'd personally most like to see fixed.
Cheers,
DD
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses).[/quote]
I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='961470' date='Dec 8 2009, 03:06 PM']That's #3 on my list (as it's caused by incorrectly synced glasses).
I would really welcome if the "policies" or whatever we want to call it in the first post could be edited to encourage everybody to "read through he complete thread before posting to ensure your problem has not been coverd before" as well as an update to a clean list of issues covered with small explanation of the symptoms.
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
Cheers,
DD
are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
intel i5 2500k @ 4.6 30C Stable
EVGA gtx 470 SLI
windows vista 64 bit
8 gig Corsair Vengeance RAM
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)[/quote]
I agree as most of the post have issues that are already made it to the first page but just worded differently. Really Nvidia should be able to read the 1st post and work from there... =)
As Amorphous has said it needs to be quick and technical not emotional for them to be able to handle this quick and with profession.
I have seen many ghosting post but it is already on the front page but if you really do think I need to word it differently please reply or send a PM.
I am making the front page list as non-emotional as possible even though we are all passionate about our 3D. But keep in mind I can not have a 4 page story for each issue.
That being said its great that is happening for us 3D users and appreciate each view and reply in thread with the utmost respect.
Ghosting is a major and might be caused by a few different reasons but most veterans around here already know the technical reason of why it is happening.
But I can added smaller bullet points for possible cause of issues... What do you think?
As it stands now most people seam to think "Hey, I am experiencing problems too. I will put mine under number 257!" without noticing it had been posted another 256 times before. The syncing/ghosting has been explained and researched thoroughly and is considered to rank priority 1-3. The only thing of posting the same things over and over again will be making the thread unreadable and fatiguing even those who have good will to support us at nvidia and nzone.
And to Dick: Don't you think laying out your requests like "When will we see..." is a tad too optimistic? Wouldn't "Will we ever see...?" be more advised? ;)
I agree as most of the post have issues that are already made it to the first page but just worded differently. Really Nvidia should be able to read the 1st post and work from there... =)
As Amorphous has said it needs to be quick and technical not emotional for them to be able to handle this quick and with profession.
I have seen many ghosting post but it is already on the front page but if you really do think I need to word it differently please reply or send a PM.
I am making the front page list as non-emotional as possible even though we are all passionate about our 3D. But keep in mind I can not have a 4 page story for each issue.
That being said its great that is happening for us 3D users and appreciate each view and reply in thread with the utmost respect.
Ghosting is a major and might be caused by a few different reasons but most veterans around here already know the technical reason of why it is happening.
But I can added smaller bullet points for possible cause of issues... What do you think?
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
Cheers,
DD
Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
[quote name='rkuo' post='961787' date='Dec 9 2009, 10:35 AM']Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.[/quote]
It should be said again that [b]the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners[/b]. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
[quote name='rkuo' post='961787' date='Dec 9 2009, 10:35 AM']Again, syncing glasses better than they are now will produce minimal improvements. The problem is with the Samsung monitor taking a significant amount of time to refresh from top to bottom. There is reverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen too in many games, it's just usually less visible b/c of the typical lower brightness in those areas.
It should be said again that the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
It should be said again that [b]the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners[/b]. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.[/quote]
Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
It should be said again that the top of screen ghosting issue is far worse for some of the Samsung 2233rz owners than the majority of 2233rz owners. Please see the screen shot I posted earlier in this thread.
Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
Even after seven years of waiting for some of these features, I'm still an optimist. A somewhat bitter and jaded optimist admittedly, but an optimist nonetheless :).
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :][/quote]
It seems that only a minority of the bundled monitors suffer from this problem so either those units are taking longer to refresh the screen (which seems technically unlikely) or they're taking the same length of time to refresh but the glasses aren't quite in sync (and so the problem could be fixed by manual sync control). DLPs use a totally different method of refreshing the screen so if a DLP was slightly out of sync you'd see subtle colour differences in each eye or increased ghosting of certain colours over the entire screen, rather than a horizontal strip with reversed 3D/severe ghosting.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 9 2009, 12:17 AM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.[/quote]
It seems strange that there would have been hotkeys for both 'GlassesDelayMinus' and 'GlassesDelayPlus' if all they did was swap eyes rather than delay or advance the shuttering by small increments (after all, a single hotkey would have sufficed for a swap eye function). In any case, I totally agree that fine control of sync is what we need.
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:48 AM']Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.[/quote]
Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD
Even after seven years of waiting for some of these features, I'm still an optimist. A somewhat bitter and jaded optimist admittedly, but an optimist nonetheless :).
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961563' date='Dec 8 2009, 05:50 PM']are you sure its a sync problem? what about the numerous other users that dont have that problem
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
It seems that only a minority of the bundled monitors suffer from this problem so either those units are taking longer to refresh the screen (which seems technically unlikely) or they're taking the same length of time to refresh but the glasses aren't quite in sync (and so the problem could be fixed by manual sync control). DLPs use a totally different method of refreshing the screen so if a DLP was slightly out of sync you'd see subtle colour differences in each eye or increased ghosting of certain colours over the entire screen, rather than a horizontal strip with reversed 3D/severe ghosting.
[quote name='BigDubs' post='961807' date='Dec 9 2009, 12:17 AM']It should be noted that the 'GlassesDelayMinus', 'GlassesDelayPlus' and 'GlassesSwitchDelay' registry commands that were present in earlier drivers did not provide gradual control on the sync timing, only the ability to switch the left right sync completely (effectively like wearing the glasses upside down). Although this 'fix' would help some projector owners which currently need to use their glasses upside down it will not address the top of screen ghosting issue with requires fine sync adjustment.
It seems strange that there would have been hotkeys for both 'GlassesDelayMinus' and 'GlassesDelayPlus' if all they did was swap eyes rather than delay or advance the shuttering by small increments (after all, a single hotkey would have sufficed for a swap eye function). In any case, I totally agree that fine control of sync is what we need.
[quote name='rkuo' post='962371' date='Dec 10 2009, 01:48 AM']Worse for who? I suspect it's equally bad for everyone. I've seen very bad ghosting on the Samsung as a result of the top to bottom refresh and I have no reason to believe Samsung has started manufacturing the monitors in such a way as to alleviate the problem. It's just worse in certain games. I took similar screenshots with Mirror's Edge.
Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :][/quote]
Yes and no. It [i]is[/i] a sync problem [i]caused[/i] by manufacturing tolerances/firmware differencies of the monitor. "Syncing" means nothing else than bringing 2 speeds (monitor and glasses in this particular case) together ("synchronos" = same time).
While the timing on the monitor is set in stone with hardware and tolerances and samsung apparently cannot control the problem in manufacturing, it, however, could be "easy" for nvidia to compensate this (and with that for ALL other displays, no matter wether TFT, DLP or whatever) on the driver domain as explained in detail [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=152118&view=findpost&p=958367"]here[/url].
"Delay" and "Duty" added in addition to the select box containing "3D vision/page flip", "DLP/checkerboard" and "3Discover/anaglyph" and sync rates ranging down to 60Hz (the high refresh rate is nothing more than a complete arbitrary limitation) would bring general and global support for all and every single display available now and in the future (such as the yet to be introduced Bravia TVs - well planar and interlaced aside, but nvidia could add these at a later point). To compensate for paralax misalignment a simple and definately easy to implement "swap L/R" button should suffice - which also would come in handy for reverted anaglyphs.
As I suggested priorily these could be tucked away in an "expert settings" panel layer to not confuse S3D noobs and causual users who would only need to pick their type of display.
All this relates to the 2 main issues "ghosting on officially supported displays" as "sync problems" which so become 1 issue, I personally would list as "sync misalignment/ghosting".
Having said this I would recommend to continue everything related to ghosting on the 120Hz monitors in [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=89261"]this thread[/url]. As much as I understand the comfort in using a stickified thread, this goes to much OT.
I do not know whether it is feasable for this forum or the admins but maybe we could have stickified threads for "generic 120Hz monitor users - a HowTo and problems", "DLP users - a HowTo and problems", "generic CRT users - a HowTo and problems". These could contain an updated list of available models known to work by the users and and links to related threads (such as the [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=89261"]"top-of-screen-ghosting-on-Sammy-120Hz-LCD-thread"[/url] or the undying [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=98067"]"Vesa-cable-not-included-in-the-European-version-pinout-thread"[/url]
i think its a monitor problem as my dlp doesent have that issue , of course it also doesent work in 3d currently :]
Yes and no. It is a sync problem caused by manufacturing tolerances/firmware differencies of the monitor. "Syncing" means nothing else than bringing 2 speeds (monitor and glasses in this particular case) together ("synchronos" = same time).
While the timing on the monitor is set in stone with hardware and tolerances and samsung apparently cannot control the problem in manufacturing, it, however, could be "easy" for nvidia to compensate this (and with that for ALL other displays, no matter wether TFT, DLP or whatever) on the driver domain as explained in detail here.
"Delay" and "Duty" added in addition to the select box containing "3D vision/page flip", "DLP/checkerboard" and "3Discover/anaglyph" and sync rates ranging down to 60Hz (the high refresh rate is nothing more than a complete arbitrary limitation) would bring general and global support for all and every single display available now and in the future (such as the yet to be introduced Bravia TVs - well planar and interlaced aside, but nvidia could add these at a later point). To compensate for paralax misalignment a simple and definately easy to implement "swap L/R" button should suffice - which also would come in handy for reverted anaglyphs.
As I suggested priorily these could be tucked away in an "expert settings" panel layer to not confuse S3D noobs and causual users who would only need to pick their type of display.
All this relates to the 2 main issues "ghosting on officially supported displays" as "sync problems" which so become 1 issue, I personally would list as "sync misalignment/ghosting".
Having said this I would recommend to continue everything related to ghosting on the 120Hz monitors in this thread. As much as I understand the comfort in using a stickified thread, this goes to much OT.
I do not know whether it is feasable for this forum or the admins but maybe we could have stickified threads for "generic 120Hz monitor users - a HowTo and problems", "DLP users - a HowTo and problems", "generic CRT users - a HowTo and problems". These could contain an updated list of available models known to work by the users and and links to related threads (such as the "top-of-screen-ghosting-on-Sammy-120Hz-LCD-thread" or the undying "Vesa-cable-not-included-in-the-European-version-pinout-thread"
and if so we should actually start making more posts like this but actually make it weekly or at least bi weekly it would be nice
and if so we should actually start making more posts like this but actually make it weekly or at least bi weekly it would be nice
intel i5 2500k @ 4.6 30C Stable
EVGA gtx 470 SLI
windows vista 64 bit
8 gig Corsair Vengeance RAM
These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='962390' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:05 PM']Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]
SPOT ON.
These assumptions are incorrect. The issue is severe on ANY game with my system. I agree with DD's comments below that if every 2233rz bundle user had the same problem every review would point out the problem and the 'top of screen ghosting' thread would probably be 100 pages long instead of 9. I'll try to post screenshots on a range of games over the weekend.
[quote name='DickDastardly' post='962390' date='Dec 10 2009, 02:05 PM']Although newcomers to 3D often don't notice anomalies which more experienced users might regard as very obvious, I doubt anyone could miss a problem which is as glaring as that shown in BigDubs' photo. If every bundled monitor was as bad then surely every user would have noticed and the issue would have been highlighted in every review of the 3D Vision kit (pretty much all of which were conducted on bundled monitors). This leads me to believe that if nVidia do add manual fine control of shutter timing then that'll hopefully eliminate the problem for those affected.
Cheers,
DD
SPOT ON.
SPOT ON.[/quote]
I've seen similar problems, but for me it depends very heavily on the scene in a particular game. Looking forward to what you have to show.
Also, I run at 110 Hz, which brings down the top/bottom ghosting issue a little from the 120Hz setting without flickering impairing the experience (which 100Hz does for me). What refresh rate are you using?
SPOT ON.
I've seen similar problems, but for me it depends very heavily on the scene in a particular game. Looking forward to what you have to show.
Also, I run at 110 Hz, which brings down the top/bottom ghosting issue a little from the 120Hz setting without flickering impairing the experience (which 100Hz does for me). What refresh rate are you using?
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