Projector question please! About to upgrade and have no clue... or half a clue maybe....
  3 / 4    
Hi BlackSharkfr, Most welcome mate. Would you kindly share how you are doing it to work with 3D Vision? inf hack? Also, IIRC, passive produces ghosting through the glasses as well as image retention if on LCD projector, hotspotting, and low brightness? How noticeable is it, if at all? I personally haven't looked into it in a long time :)
Hi BlackSharkfr,

Most welcome mate. Would you kindly share how you are doing it to work with 3D Vision? inf hack?

Also, IIRC, passive produces ghosting through the glasses as well as image retention if on LCD projector, hotspotting, and low brightness? How noticeable is it, if at all?

I personally haven't looked into it in a long time :)

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#31
Posted 06/05/2017 11:15 AM   
hahah... BlackSharkfr and I are propably the only crazy ones here using dual projector setup. It´s too good. There is downsides many many, but itś just so good you can never go back to any other solution. VR maby when it has hit that sweet over 150 degree FOV with 4k per eye specs. plusses Bright if using polarizers. omega filtters not so low ghosting no eye strain super light glasses, even clip-ons work great you always have one projector to play 2d if one fails resolution...1080p per eye @ 60hz negative expensive: what´s your take on this blackshark ? it´s actually not that expensive if you get all at cheapest price. polarizers can be bought at film only or use glasses for filtters, for 3d vision it mandatory to have a geobox or similar device that fools pc thinking itś connected to a 3d vision certified monitor but actually itś connected to a 3d demultiplexer. and the projectors used also determine lot´s of the cost. and the screen also is expensive if you get hq commersial product. Im currently using my own paint mix and im quite happy with my screen. It has signifigantly lower crosstalk than in swedens big IMAX theater. low shimmering. low grainines. low hotspotting. I would say maby the screen blackshark uses could be next best thing but the price to quality ratio is currently too high as my paint mix costs about 200 €/L and the screen black shark has costs about 3000€ at my size and that´s the material only, so it´s kind of no brainer for the moment as i have more important things on my shopping list.
hahah... BlackSharkfr and I are propably the only crazy ones here using dual projector setup.
It´s too good. There is downsides many many, but itś just so good you can never go back to any other
solution. VR maby when it has hit that sweet over 150 degree FOV with 4k per eye specs.

plusses

Bright if using polarizers. omega filtters not so
low ghosting
no eye strain
super light glasses, even clip-ons work great
you always have one projector to play 2d if one fails
resolution...1080p per eye @ 60hz

negative

expensive: what´s your take on this blackshark ?
it´s actually not that expensive if you get all at cheapest price.
polarizers can be bought at film only or use glasses for filtters,
for 3d vision it mandatory to have a geobox or similar device that fools
pc thinking itś connected to a 3d vision certified monitor but actually itś connected to
a 3d demultiplexer.
and the projectors used also determine lot´s of the cost.
and the screen also is expensive if you get hq commersial product.

Im currently using my own paint mix and im quite happy with my screen.
It has signifigantly lower crosstalk than in swedens big IMAX theater.
low shimmering. low grainines. low hotspotting.
I would say maby the screen blackshark uses could be next best thing but
the price to quality ratio is currently too high as my paint mix costs about
200 €/L and the screen black shark has costs about 3000€ at my size and that´s
the material only, so it´s kind of no brainer for the moment as i have more
important things on my shopping list.

CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele

#32
Posted 06/05/2017 12:40 PM   
That's really interesting stuff Metaloholic. I wonder if you can find/overclock projectors which work at a higher refresh than 60 e.g. 75, so you passive setup guys can have 75fps+ in games as well as true 1080p! I wonder if you can have 2x 120Hz projectors in passive with your setup? As you know, we projector folk even at 120Hz 720p are stuck at 60fps, which isn't ideal for gaming. Modern gaming monitors are 144fps, and the market is getting ready for 200-240fps gaming monitors soon :) There is a way to attain >60fps i.e. 120fps with 3D, and I remember describing it a long time ago in a long thread. This issue is tangential to the topic at hand, but I thought it worth mentioning. helifax did produce a prototype, and it worked amazingly well - 120fps in 3D Vision was glorious with it. Unfortunately, at the time, 3D Vision didn't support it directly, and i don't know if modern wrappers might. Certainly darkstarsword, bo3b and helifax et al, have worked miracles since then. For completeness, Old thread discussing the topic here: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/572033/3d-vision/please-help-me-fix-the-60fps-120hz-issue-once-and-for-all-/6/
That's really interesting stuff Metaloholic. I wonder if you can find/overclock projectors which work at a higher refresh than 60 e.g. 75, so you passive setup guys can have 75fps+ in games as well as true 1080p!

I wonder if you can have 2x 120Hz projectors in passive with your setup?

As you know, we projector folk even at 120Hz 720p are stuck at 60fps, which isn't ideal for gaming. Modern gaming monitors are 144fps, and the market is getting ready for 200-240fps gaming monitors soon :)

There is a way to attain >60fps i.e. 120fps with 3D, and I remember describing it a long time ago in a long thread.

This issue is tangential to the topic at hand, but I thought it worth mentioning. helifax did produce a prototype, and it worked amazingly well - 120fps in 3D Vision was glorious with it. Unfortunately, at the time, 3D Vision didn't support it directly, and i don't know if modern wrappers might. Certainly darkstarsword, bo3b and helifax et al, have worked miracles since then.

For completeness, Old thread discussing the topic here:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/572033/3d-vision/please-help-me-fix-the-60fps-120hz-issue-once-and-for-all-/6/

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#33
Posted 06/05/2017 07:34 PM   
72 hz would be maximumper eye as 3d vision only supports 144hz to my knoledge and it´s active so that in half 72. Im quite happy with 60. i have never appriciated 120hz. i tried it once and i think it was totally overrated. maby if you play competitive mp. but it´s just my oppinnion. yeah bring it on but i don´t pay a buck extra for it. i think there is much more important things to improve than refreshrate. Id take a better black level or smoother motion for movies and internally faster panels any time than more refreshrate. maby im wrong but i don´t see that much value in it. about movies. i think 4k movies look too sharp and too fluid, the movie effect dies with 60 fps content. if i wanna see a movie i wanna see a movie not a real life filmatisation. maby the dual projector setup is too good. i never say to my self man i need more refreshrate. or man i need more resolution. i usually say man i need JVC for deeper blacks and even better contrast. and more gpu and cpu for better frame rates.
72 hz would be maximumper eye as 3d vision only supports 144hz to my knoledge and it´s active so that in half 72.
Im quite happy with 60. i have never appriciated 120hz. i tried it once and i think it was totally overrated.
maby if you play competitive mp.
but it´s just my oppinnion. yeah bring it on but i don´t pay a buck extra for it.

i think there is much more important things to improve than refreshrate.
Id take a better black level or smoother motion for movies and internally faster panels any time than more refreshrate. maby im wrong but i don´t see that much value in it.

about movies.

i think 4k movies look too sharp and too fluid, the movie effect dies with 60 fps content.
if i wanna see a movie i wanna see a movie not a real life filmatisation.

maby the dual projector setup is too good. i never say to my self man i need more refreshrate.
or man i need more resolution. i usually say man i need JVC for deeper blacks and even better contrast.
and more gpu and cpu for better frame rates.

CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele

#34
Posted 06/05/2017 08:04 PM   
Dual projector 3D is indeed the holy grail of 3D projection. It's also very expensive. The Quality/price ratio is clearly nowhere to be found in such a system. Dual-projector systems are only for the true enthusiasts who are ready to pay a premium for very specific technical points. The main reason for the price is that you have to buy 2 projectors instead of one. Then there are all the extra equipment which adds up quickly. I'm still running the same base system as 6 years ago using my good old pair of EPSON EH-TW3500 (1080p 2D projectors). I've upgraded the silverscreen, changed light bulbs,... but the biggest difference is the GPU change. I have to convert frame sequential format with a demultiplexer since I switched from AMD to Nvidia. It works but there are a few bugs here and there. If only Nvidia could finally unlock their driver to allow Side by Side output at full resolution (3840x1080), it would solve all my issues and work as flawlessly as Tridef does. Stupid 3D Vision driver restrictions ! Last time I checked, the 3D Migoto side by side / over/under mode did not work at full resolution (it's designed for squashed half-resolution for 3DTVs and hdmi 1.4 projectors. At the moment, in order to achieve 3D Vision compatibility, I use a VNS Geobox 501 signal converter (can convert Nvidia's DVI Dual-link, DisplayPort, and regular hdmi1.4). It's an expensive converter, there are cheaper ones but I chose this one because I knew I wanted to be able to switch from Nvidia to AMD and wanted both DVI-DL and DisplayPort on the same box... just to be safe. The VNS Geobox converters are not 3D Vision certified, but if I plug an Nvidia USB pyramid emitter, the driver unlocks the "Generic CRT" mode, and the Geobox are able to covert the frame-sequantial format to the dual-outputs for dual-projectors. No EDID hack required (I use DisplayPort, DVI-DL requires EDID hack because the Geobox does not report the DVI-DL capability to the GPU). Although a custom EDID does help sometimes by changing the default resolutions and refresh rates to the correct values, no hair pulling when a stupid game engine screws up the resolution auto-detection... (Unreal Engine 4 games, I'm talking about you). When playing games, Full-resolution Side-by-side is preferable though. (better reliability, and V-sync is not required) The unique advantages of dual-projectors over conventional active 3D projectors are : (my priorities) - passive projection (cheap, lightweight, passive glasses, no battery required, many manufacturers make compatible products, lots of different glasses models, most are cheap, some are fancy) - simultaneous display in both eyes (no motion artefacts in fast action games) - works with any 2D projector. LCD, DLP, LCoS, etc... - can go beyond the hdmi1.4 restrictions (1080p60, 4K, 120Hz, HDR,... whatever, if you can name a feature from your projector in 2D, you can do it in 3D as well) - V-sync is not mandatory if using side-by-side output - G-Sync / Freesync could theoretically be achievable using direct connection to the computer, but no such projectors exist. The disadvantages of dual-projectors are : - price of buying 2 projectors - price of buying filters and glasses (they're no included, obviously) - price of buying extra hardware depending on your choice of glasses (mainly the screen if choosing the polariser route) - complexity of managing the installation (not WAF friendly) - price of converters for compatibility. When I started, I didn't buy converters and connected the projectors directly to my AMD GPU with 2-displays Eyefinity. I could play games with Tridef drivers and iZ3D drivers (RIP), but had issues to play BluRay 3D movies. (I had to rip my own BluRay 3D discs and convert them to Full-SBS to play them). Now with the VNS converter, I just put the disc in my little Sony BluRay 3D player and press play. It's great. I haven't tried the direct connection with the computer on my Nvidia card. (I suspect the "Nvidia Surround" minimum 3 display restrictions won't let us use proper frame-lock synchronisation between outputs... because it's a "Quadro only" feature). But again I haven't tried. I'm not an expert on 2-displays Nvidia Surround. - some small bugs with NVidia 3D Vision (V-sync) - price of 2x replacement light bulbs when they get old Things that vary greatly depending on the details of your system : - Brightness is often increased compared with the same projector in active 3D mode... except the projector is still running in 2D mode (all options are available, no forced lamp boost, no forced gamma, all picture quality options always available etc...). The amount of brightness increase depends on the details of your projector and glasses choices. At best you can get up to 4x brightness over active projectors, at worst the same brightness. But then... if you can choose any projector without having to worry about it's 3D qualities, there is a high chance you can find a great photon cannon for the same price. - Crosstalk varies based on the details of the glasses system (there are 3 main ways to do it) and the screen material. Depending on your choices and your budget, you can get results that span from very high crosstalk up to results as good as DLPs (no visible crosstalk)... My current system is somewhere in the middle. I have complete transparency on 99% of the content, and some rare cases where I get some crosstalk. But no matter what choices you make, crosstalk always has the very nice linear characteristics of passive 3D. In terms of actual price numbers, the lowest you could probably do would be around 1000~1500$, but that's using the cheapest projectors you can find. So you'd get 3D but be compromising else. More reasonably, for seriously considering a dual-projector setup, aim no lower than 2000$ budget. Over the 6+ years I've been doing dual-projectors, I believe I have spent over 6000$. Not including the 5.1 surround sound system, moving to a bigger apartment with significantly bigger living room (and rent), the living room furniture, the BluRay 3D collection, and the parties when friends come over to watch a movie with me... etc... But I can proudly say my system is better than any theatre in town, my system can only be beaten by IMAX... (well actually IMAX is a dual-projector system... so... you get the idea) The biggest drawback is with such a price, it is out of question to replace the projector every time a new model comes out. You definitely want to make your projectors last as long as possible. If somehow my current projectors were to break. I'd probably want to replace them with a pair of Sony VPL VW45ES (that's 2000$ per projector). Expensive... indeed.
Dual projector 3D is indeed the holy grail of 3D projection. It's also very expensive.
The Quality/price ratio is clearly nowhere to be found in such a system.
Dual-projector systems are only for the true enthusiasts who are ready to pay a premium for very specific technical points.
The main reason for the price is that you have to buy 2 projectors instead of one. Then there are all the extra equipment which adds up quickly.

I'm still running the same base system as 6 years ago using my good old pair of EPSON EH-TW3500 (1080p 2D projectors). I've upgraded the silverscreen, changed light bulbs,... but the biggest difference is the GPU change. I have to convert frame sequential format with a demultiplexer since I switched from AMD to Nvidia. It works but there are a few bugs here and there. If only Nvidia could finally unlock their driver to allow Side by Side output at full resolution (3840x1080), it would solve all my issues and work as flawlessly as Tridef does. Stupid 3D Vision driver restrictions !

Last time I checked, the 3D Migoto side by side / over/under mode did not work at full resolution (it's designed for squashed half-resolution for 3DTVs and hdmi 1.4 projectors.

At the moment, in order to achieve 3D Vision compatibility, I use a VNS Geobox 501 signal converter (can convert Nvidia's DVI Dual-link, DisplayPort, and regular hdmi1.4). It's an expensive converter, there are cheaper ones but I chose this one because I knew I wanted to be able to switch from Nvidia to AMD and wanted both DVI-DL and DisplayPort on the same box... just to be safe.
The VNS Geobox converters are not 3D Vision certified, but if I plug an Nvidia USB pyramid emitter, the driver unlocks the "Generic CRT" mode, and the Geobox are able to covert the frame-sequantial format to the dual-outputs for dual-projectors. No EDID hack required (I use DisplayPort, DVI-DL requires EDID hack because the Geobox does not report the DVI-DL capability to the GPU).

Although a custom EDID does help sometimes by changing the default resolutions and refresh rates to the correct values, no hair pulling when a stupid game engine screws up the resolution auto-detection... (Unreal Engine 4 games, I'm talking about you).

When playing games, Full-resolution Side-by-side is preferable though. (better reliability, and V-sync is not required)



The unique advantages of dual-projectors over conventional active 3D projectors are : (my priorities)

- passive projection (cheap, lightweight, passive glasses, no battery required, many manufacturers make compatible products, lots of different glasses models, most are cheap, some are fancy)
- simultaneous display in both eyes (no motion artefacts in fast action games)
- works with any 2D projector. LCD, DLP, LCoS, etc...
- can go beyond the hdmi1.4 restrictions (1080p60, 4K, 120Hz, HDR,... whatever, if you can name a feature from your projector in 2D, you can do it in 3D as well)
- V-sync is not mandatory if using side-by-side output
- G-Sync / Freesync could theoretically be achievable using direct connection to the computer, but no such projectors exist.

The disadvantages of dual-projectors are :

- price of buying 2 projectors
- price of buying filters and glasses (they're no included, obviously)
- price of buying extra hardware depending on your choice of glasses (mainly the screen if choosing the polariser route)
- complexity of managing the installation (not WAF friendly)
- price of converters for compatibility. When I started, I didn't buy converters and connected the projectors directly to my AMD GPU with 2-displays Eyefinity. I could play games with Tridef drivers and iZ3D drivers (RIP), but had issues to play BluRay 3D movies. (I had to rip my own BluRay 3D discs and convert them to Full-SBS to play them).
Now with the VNS converter, I just put the disc in my little Sony BluRay 3D player and press play. It's great.
I haven't tried the direct connection with the computer on my Nvidia card. (I suspect the "Nvidia Surround" minimum 3 display restrictions won't let us use proper frame-lock synchronisation between outputs... because it's a "Quadro only" feature). But again I haven't tried. I'm not an expert on 2-displays Nvidia Surround.
- some small bugs with NVidia 3D Vision (V-sync)
- price of 2x replacement light bulbs when they get old

Things that vary greatly depending on the details of your system :

- Brightness is often increased compared with the same projector in active 3D mode... except the projector is still running in 2D mode (all options are available, no forced lamp boost, no forced gamma, all picture quality options always available etc...).
The amount of brightness increase depends on the details of your projector and glasses choices. At best you can get up to 4x brightness over active projectors, at worst the same brightness.
But then... if you can choose any projector without having to worry about it's 3D qualities, there is a high chance you can find a great photon cannon for the same price.
- Crosstalk varies based on the details of the glasses system (there are 3 main ways to do it) and the screen material. Depending on your choices and your budget, you can get results that span from very high crosstalk up to results as good as DLPs (no visible crosstalk)...
My current system is somewhere in the middle. I have complete transparency on 99% of the content, and some rare cases where I get some crosstalk.
But no matter what choices you make, crosstalk always has the very nice linear characteristics of passive 3D.

In terms of actual price numbers, the lowest you could probably do would be around 1000~1500$, but that's using the cheapest projectors you can find. So you'd get 3D but be compromising else.
More reasonably, for seriously considering a dual-projector setup, aim no lower than 2000$ budget.
Over the 6+ years I've been doing dual-projectors, I believe I have spent over 6000$.

Not including the 5.1 surround sound system, moving to a bigger apartment with significantly bigger living room (and rent), the living room furniture, the BluRay 3D collection, and the parties when friends come over to watch a movie with me... etc...
But I can proudly say my system is better than any theatre in town, my system can only be beaten by IMAX... (well actually IMAX is a dual-projector system... so... you get the idea)

The biggest drawback is with such a price, it is out of question to replace the projector every time a new model comes out. You definitely want to make your projectors last as long as possible.
If somehow my current projectors were to break. I'd probably want to replace them with a pair of Sony VPL VW45ES (that's 2000$ per projector).
Expensive... indeed.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#35
Posted 06/05/2017 08:13 PM   
That's great info there BlackSharkfr, thanks for the write-up. That price is a pretty investment, but well worth it if you are a keen 3D enthusiast I am sure! Speaking about me personally, when 4k projectors are affordable (my family sofa is much closer to the screen than gaming position, perfectly divisible by 720p), I shall definitely look into this again. Hoping there will be an updated version of the conversion hardware to support something which is up to date at the time. If money was no issue, I would definitely give what you had a try. Alas, currently, I am pretty satisfied with my price-point vs what I have - 2.4 gain glass bead screen with 120Hz projector which works well with DSR @ 4x. It doesn't compare to your setup, it being pretty simple in comparison, but I am quite happy with the brightness (you can indeed never get enough), and the 0 ghosting :) I'll keep your post in mind for the future, and if you guys ever build new systems, please keep us updated! It's all fascinating. I believe we also have a guy here who uses 3x 720p projectors on a curved screen, and we have more than a few surround gamers. It's always great to see what people get up to in the field of one of your hobbies and their results! Kudos!
That's great info there BlackSharkfr, thanks for the write-up. That price is a pretty investment, but well worth it if you are a keen 3D enthusiast I am sure!

Speaking about me personally, when 4k projectors are affordable (my family sofa is much closer to the screen than gaming position, perfectly divisible by 720p), I shall definitely look into this again. Hoping there will be an updated version of the conversion hardware to support something which is up to date at the time. If money was no issue, I would definitely give what you had a try.

Alas, currently, I am pretty satisfied with my price-point vs what I have - 2.4 gain glass bead screen with 120Hz projector which works well with DSR @ 4x. It doesn't compare to your setup, it being pretty simple in comparison, but I am quite happy with the brightness (you can indeed never get enough), and the 0 ghosting :)

I'll keep your post in mind for the future, and if you guys ever build new systems, please keep us updated! It's all fascinating.

I believe we also have a guy here who uses 3x 720p projectors on a curved screen, and we have more than a few surround gamers. It's always great to see what people get up to in the field of one of your hobbies and their results!

Kudos!

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#36
Posted 06/05/2017 10:45 PM   
[quote="joker18"]As you guys might have noticed 720p upscaling on 1080p projector is quite good, It is indeed a bit softer than the 720p real and of course less detailed than 1080p but a very good compromise. Another very important thing to keep in mind when deciding if to buy a 1080p or a 720p projector is the no of pixels. For 720P you will have about less than half of the pixels for the same screen size compared to 1080p. I think it is not the same thing to have a 110" image formed form 921.600 pixels or 2.073.600 pixels. [/quote] Here on the 3D Vision forums, it's important to concentrate on the proper 3D metrics. A 2D metric is not meaningful for our experience. For a 720p projector at 120Hz, that's two images (one for each eye) for every 60 Hz frame. As I noted earlier, these are from a different perspective, the other eye, and thus every pixel is different. For 1080p projectors, the max mode allowed by the software for 3D is full 1080p@24Hz, which is generally regarded as unacceptable. The compromise is to use DarkStarSword's TAB support for DX11 games, which gives you a full 1080p@60Hz image where it's supported. (half frame for each eye) So the proper metric is: 720p frame sequential: 1280*720*2= 1843200 pixels 1080p TopAndBottom: 1920*1080= 2073600 pixels The TAB approach will look better on a 1080p projector where it works with a game, because of that 12.5% bump in resolution, and also not having to upscale from 720p which softens the image as noted above. Compared with running a native 720p projector, this is a tougher call. The 12.5% resolution will help, but is not supported in any DX9 games, and doesn't work with every DX11 game. In my opinion, with the current NVidia lock on 1080p output, the sweet spot is still a 720p frame-sequential projector. For best value. These are getting hard to find though, so it's also clear that a 1080p projector is still a good choice. If you can swing it, the dual projector sounds like the best quality.
joker18 said:As you guys might have noticed 720p upscaling on 1080p projector is quite good, It is indeed a bit softer than the 720p real and of course less detailed than 1080p but a very good compromise.
Another very important thing to keep in mind when deciding if to buy a 1080p or a 720p projector is the no of pixels. For 720P you will have about less than half of the pixels for the same screen size compared to 1080p.
I think it is not the same thing to have a 110" image formed form 921.600 pixels or 2.073.600 pixels.

Here on the 3D Vision forums, it's important to concentrate on the proper 3D metrics. A 2D metric is not meaningful for our experience.

For a 720p projector at 120Hz, that's two images (one for each eye) for every 60 Hz frame. As I noted earlier, these are from a different perspective, the other eye, and thus every pixel is different.

For 1080p projectors, the max mode allowed by the software for 3D is full 1080p@24Hz, which is generally regarded as unacceptable. The compromise is to use DarkStarSword's TAB support for DX11 games, which gives you a full 1080p@60Hz image where it's supported. (half frame for each eye)

So the proper metric is:
720p frame sequential: 1280*720*2= 1843200 pixels
1080p TopAndBottom: 1920*1080= 2073600 pixels

The TAB approach will look better on a 1080p projector where it works with a game, because of that 12.5% bump in resolution, and also not having to upscale from 720p which softens the image as noted above.

Compared with running a native 720p projector, this is a tougher call. The 12.5% resolution will help, but is not supported in any DX9 games, and doesn't work with every DX11 game.


In my opinion, with the current NVidia lock on 1080p output, the sweet spot is still a 720p frame-sequential projector. For best value. These are getting hard to find though, so it's also clear that a 1080p projector is still a good choice.

If you can swing it, the dual projector sounds like the best quality.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#37
Posted 06/05/2017 10:46 PM   
bo3b the discussion was about "bad" upscalling and this is what my example is meant for. You don't need 3D to see if an image has artifacts. It was just to show how far form reality, the simulation previously posted is. Secondly, even if you are seeing 2 times the pixels the image is still formed only by 921.600 pixels (Hardware pixels) thus pixels will be bigger and distance between them also. 3rd. with an 1080p projector you can achieve 1920x760@104hz or 1841x789@104hz or 1715x735@120hz or other ratios/sizes, this are just examples I was using. 1920x760 will give you 2.918.400 pixels. Of course not every projector will be able to work at a low blanking interval as mine but for sure they can get close. Any nonstandard resolution can be used in Real aspect ratio which will give you a smaller image but 1:1 pixel mapping, so no weird upscalling artefacts.
bo3b the discussion was about "bad" upscalling and this is what my example is meant for. You don't need 3D to see if an image has artifacts. It was just to show how far form reality, the simulation previously posted is.

Secondly, even if you are seeing 2 times the pixels the image is still formed only by 921.600 pixels (Hardware pixels) thus pixels will be bigger and distance between them also.

3rd. with an 1080p projector you can achieve 1920x760@104hz or 1841x789@104hz or 1715x735@120hz or other ratios/sizes, this are just examples I was using.
1920x760 will give you 2.918.400 pixels. Of course not every projector will be able to work at a low blanking interval as mine but for sure they can get close. Any nonstandard resolution can be used in Real aspect ratio which will give you a smaller image but 1:1 pixel mapping, so no weird upscalling artefacts.

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#38
Posted 06/06/2017 05:30 AM   
i have spend about the same amount on dual pj setup than blackShark. i think the fact i still have both omega filtters ( dlp and lcd versions that has put me down like 500 euros atleast ) tell how the dual system sucks you in. i have them just in case i some day happen to have money and find couple 3-chip dlp projectors with xenon light source to try them out. they are useless to my currently as i use polarizers i originally bought when starting my dual pj quest. i just did not have good enough screen from the start for the polarizers. BShark...i also would choose sony if i would update my pair but i hear storyes the panel degration has not solved yet. I can tell you the mitsubishis i have with sony panels are sweet but the build quality is over the place because of the panels. i had 2 friking perfect projectors but the other started cutting power and was replaced. if i would have only knew what endless cycle it started. i currently have the one perfect and 2 not projectors that are all over the place, i luckily got them balanced pretty good but damn it made me hate sony as the problems arise completely from the optical block and panels. so thats why i would like to test 2 jvc´s ...allthough i don´t know would dila work with my 45/135 linear polarizers
i have spend about the same amount on dual pj setup than blackShark.
i think the fact i still have both omega filtters ( dlp and lcd versions that has put me down like
500 euros atleast ) tell how the dual system sucks you in. i have them just in case i some day happen to have money and find
couple 3-chip dlp projectors with xenon light source to try them out.
they are useless to my currently as i use polarizers i originally bought when starting my dual pj quest.
i just did not have good enough screen from the start for the polarizers.

BShark...i also would choose sony if i would update my pair but i hear storyes the panel degration
has not solved yet. I can tell you the mitsubishis i have with sony panels are sweet but the build quality
is over the place because of the panels. i had 2 friking perfect projectors but the other started cutting
power and was replaced. if i would have only knew what endless cycle it started. i currently have the one perfect and 2 not projectors that are all over the place, i luckily got them balanced pretty good but damn it made me hate sony as the problems arise completely from the optical block and panels.

so thats why i would like to test 2 jvc´s ...allthough i don´t know would dila work with my 45/135 linear polarizers

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#39
Posted 06/06/2017 06:41 PM   
Is there a premium brand you guys would recommend? My ViewSonic is atrocious for build quality and support, though the colour picture is reasonably bright and adequate. I have had BenQ, Dell and CompaQ projectors before this. Interestingly, the best one was the Dell, but would never sync to glasses due to a technical flaw. Going forward, I think my next purchase will be 1:1 pixel mapped 720px3 = 3840 pixels × 2160 pixels aka 4k, if they ever become 120Hz compatible with 3D Vision in some manner - as my family viewing area is close to the screen compared to my gaming area so the higher resolution should be noticeable for them if not me. Presumably they will all be using the same Ti DLP chip. Maybe even Laser light and HDR. I guess we have quite a few years before anything like that becomes 'affordable' for us mere mortals :)
Is there a premium brand you guys would recommend?

My ViewSonic is atrocious for build quality and support, though the colour picture is reasonably bright and adequate.

I have had BenQ, Dell and CompaQ projectors before this. Interestingly, the best one was the Dell, but would never sync to glasses due to a technical flaw.

Going forward, I think my next purchase will be 1:1 pixel mapped 720px3 = 3840 pixels × 2160 pixels aka 4k, if they ever become 120Hz compatible with 3D Vision in some manner - as my family viewing area is close to the screen compared to my gaming area so the higher resolution should be noticeable for them if not me.

Presumably they will all be using the same Ti DLP chip. Maybe even Laser light and HDR. I guess we have quite a few years before anything like that becomes 'affordable' for us mere mortals :)

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#40
Posted 06/07/2017 06:52 AM   
I personally would recommend any 3 chip over 1-chip dlp. Offcourse dlp has its benefits but If you put 3-chip and 1-chip colorwheel strobo side by side the comfort of watching is on another ballpark. And generally 2k€/$ + is the cut where projectors start to deliver much Better colors and image in general. Any Sony, even the older hw55 ect 1000€ used will wipe the table clean of any BenQ, optoma ect ~1000$ projector. But as we Are in the 3d Forum you just need to test and evaluate the Crosstalk of the projector to know if its good enough. As we all know even the cheapest dlp offer crosstalk free image. One thing about the crosstalk is the fact when we talk about 1-chip dlp and generally active 3d crosstalk rises To be the most important factor. in passive dual Pj setup you learn crosstalk is just another drop in the Soup, as the great 3d experience is collobaration of many things. Everyone even dreaming about exellent 3d go and test some 2000+ projector Sony 45 or current models, jvc , Epson . Fist demo a 1000$ 1-chip dlp, switch to you choosing of any i listed , See and Feel (Yes) the difference and now that you Are clown away with the great black and Contrast imagine the same 2D image on both eyes. No flicker no black blanking frames .. I my self dream of switching into two jvc but thats 6k only for Or two used 3-chip fullhd dlp projectors but thats even more expensive
I personally would recommend any 3 chip over 1-chip dlp. Offcourse dlp has its benefits but
If you put 3-chip and 1-chip colorwheel strobo side by side the comfort of watching is on another ballpark.
And generally 2k€/$ + is the cut where projectors start to deliver much
Better colors and image in general. Any Sony, even the older hw55 ect 1000€ used will wipe the table clean of any
BenQ, optoma ect ~1000$ projector. But as we Are in the 3d Forum you just need to test and evaluate the
Crosstalk of the projector to know if its good enough. As we all know even the cheapest dlp offer crosstalk free image.

One thing about the crosstalk is the fact when we talk about 1-chip dlp and generally active 3d crosstalk rises
To be the most important factor. in passive dual Pj setup you learn crosstalk is just another drop in the
Soup, as the great 3d experience is collobaration of many things.

Everyone even dreaming about exellent 3d go and test some 2000+ projector
Sony 45 or current models, jvc , Epson .
Fist demo a 1000$ 1-chip dlp, switch to you choosing of any i listed ,
See and Feel (Yes) the difference and now that you Are clown away with the great black and
Contrast imagine the same 2D image on both eyes. No flicker no black blanking frames ..

I my self dream of switching into two jvc but thats 6k only for

Or two used 3-chip fullhd dlp projectors but thats even more expensive

CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele

#41
Posted 06/07/2017 08:24 AM   
I'm curious about this one. However there is 0 mention of 3d in the specification. https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/6/6/15748114/optoma-uhd60-uhd65-2000-projector-4k-budget
I'm curious about this one.
However there is 0 mention of 3d in the specification.
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/6/6/15748114/optoma-uhd60-uhd65-2000-projector-4k-budget

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#42
Posted 06/07/2017 01:29 PM   
According to a user on the AVS forums this projector doesn't support 3D Got this from Optoma Email sent to me. We are pleased to announce that our 4K projector for home has been revealed at ISE 2017, as the UHD60, and we are now able to release some specs and release dates for you all. Specifications 4K UHD XPR technology – 8 million on screen pixels Amazing colour technology – Rec.709 8W audio sound box 1.35 - 2.22:1 Throw ratio 1.6x zoom 15% Vertical lens shift 2x HDMI, VGA, SPDIF, USB Power, 12V Trigger, RJ45 HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 HDR Support Does not support 3D Available in June Price: Approx. €2499 Inc. VAT
According to a user on the AVS forums this projector doesn't support 3D

Got this from Optoma Email sent to me.

We are pleased to announce that our 4K projector for home has been revealed at ISE 2017, as the UHD60, and we are now able to release some specs and release dates for you all.

Specifications

4K UHD XPR technology – 8 million on screen pixels
Amazing colour technology – Rec.709
8W audio sound box
1.35 - 2.22:1 Throw ratio
1.6x zoom
15% Vertical lens shift
2x HDMI, VGA, SPDIF, USB Power, 12V Trigger, RJ45
HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2
HDR Support
Does not support 3D
Available in June
Price: Approx. €2499 Inc. VAT

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55

#43
Posted 06/07/2017 02:34 PM   
It would not have seem far fetched for them to support Checkerboard 3D, like the Mitsubishi and Samsung did on their DLP HD3D TVs. It's the same principle as wobulation used previously. They used a small mirror in the lightpath before but are using a slightly different technique now. When I talked to PJ manufacturers the other day, they did not want to discuss that these 4K projectors are interlaced. Like it's a dirty word or something. They just kept saying that it will resolve a 4K image, which is true. But it will use two offset sub-frames to do so.
It would not have seem far fetched for them to support Checkerboard 3D, like the Mitsubishi and Samsung did on their DLP HD3D TVs.

It's the same principle as wobulation used previously. They used a small mirror in the lightpath before but are using a slightly different technique now.

When I talked to PJ manufacturers the other day, they did not want to discuss that these 4K projectors are interlaced. Like it's a dirty word or something. They just kept saying that it will resolve a 4K image, which is true. But it will use two offset sub-frames to do so.

#44
Posted 06/07/2017 03:28 PM   
I think the e-shift and like is more fasinating than 4k as its said that The Image is more sharper and yet you can use normal fullhd input and save some Rendering power as more is always welcomed untill we start getting more out of Our processors
I think the e-shift and like is more fasinating than 4k as its said that The
Image is more sharper and yet you can use normal fullhd input and save some
Rendering power as more is always welcomed untill we start getting more out of
Our processors

CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele

#45
Posted 06/07/2017 08:11 PM   
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