1080p 24 fps Is this good enough for games?
  3 / 4    
Brightness is so low 100* lower than it should be, about 50-100 times!

It can't compete with LED , Laser , phosphor technology...
Brightness is so low 100* lower than it should be, about 50-100 times!



It can't compete with LED , Laser , phosphor technology...

#31
Posted 05/14/2011 02:46 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='14 May 2011 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1305353969' post='1236952']

Btw: Does Roller11 still think that framepacked 1080p is compressed like he claimed a few days ago? (Reason # 32,396b that i still have my doubts about CB.....)
[/quote]
I've never considered framepacking 'compressed' it isn't. Framepacking per se is fine, nothing wrong with it. The problem is that FP is the mandatory mode for 3D transmission in HDTVs, so FP forces the wrong pixel processing mode. For Samsungs, all other 3D modes (CB,SBS,FS) are not switched, TV stays in proper and desireable PC pixel processing mode. Only known fix is to use a mode other than FP. The worry is the dire implication this has for future HDMI1.5 implementations.
[quote] Samsung has quite a few claims against there TV sets for ghosting[/quote]
All brands of HDTVs, projectors, monitors have quite a few claims again them for ghosting, so this is not necessarily reason to avoid Samsung.

Thanks for weighing in on this topic, especially in such an articulate and understandable manner. And my personal thanks for your famous SBS experiment that gave me the insight to characterize a problem that I've know about for 5 years. It was a true epiphany.
[quote name='Libertine' date='14 May 2011 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1305353969' post='1236952']



Btw: Does Roller11 still think that framepacked 1080p is compressed like he claimed a few days ago? (Reason # 32,396b that i still have my doubts about CB.....)



I've never considered framepacking 'compressed' it isn't. Framepacking per se is fine, nothing wrong with it. The problem is that FP is the mandatory mode for 3D transmission in HDTVs, so FP forces the wrong pixel processing mode. For Samsungs, all other 3D modes (CB,SBS,FS) are not switched, TV stays in proper and desireable PC pixel processing mode. Only known fix is to use a mode other than FP. The worry is the dire implication this has for future HDMI1.5 implementations.

Samsung has quite a few claims against there TV sets for ghosting


All brands of HDTVs, projectors, monitors have quite a few claims again them for ghosting, so this is not necessarily reason to avoid Samsung.



Thanks for weighing in on this topic, especially in such an articulate and understandable manner. And my personal thanks for your famous SBS experiment that gave me the insight to characterize a problem that I've know about for 5 years. It was a true epiphany.

#32
Posted 05/14/2011 03:54 PM   
I think we've finally found out how Roller11 got his opinion that 720p looks "hideous": 2010 Samsung's apparently don't do scaling well:


"[b][size="3"]3D Material[/size][/b]

Last year, it’s fair to say that out of all the major manufacturers’ 3DTV efforts, we were most critical of Samsung’s. While none of the LCD-based 3D TVs really enthused us when it came to 3D (due to annoying crosstalk artefacts), Samsung’s offerings had two other issues that rival LCD TV makers managed to avoid. First, the tri-dimensional modes of the company’s 2010 3D-capable displays were obviously 60hz-centric, because any European-style 50hz video input to the TV showed obvious judder in its 3D display mode. [b]Secondly, Samsung’s 2010 3D LCDs and Plasmas featured poor quality scaling with 3D signals. Scaling in 3D is required for any content that doesn’t deliver Full HD 1080p to each eye, meaning that 720p 3D and Side-by-Side 3D sources were affected.[/b] These two issues meant that it was difficult to recommend last
year’s Samsung 3DTV models for use with the Sky 3D channel in the UK, since the video signal is both 50hz and side-by-side encoded!"

and

"... Critically for side-by-side broadcasts, the D8000 LED LCD TV no longer exhibits defective scaling for 3D content delivered in this way – something Samsung should be commended for rectifying."



From a review of the D8000, Samsungs flagship model( i think):
[url="http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55d8000-ue46d8000-201105131065.htm"]http://www.hdtvtest....01105131065.htm[/url]

Its fixed this year, yet the D8000 being Samsungs best, the lower end models may very well still have the problem.
I think we've finally found out how Roller11 got his opinion that 720p looks "hideous": 2010 Samsung's apparently don't do scaling well:





"3D Material



Last year, it’s fair to say that out of all the major manufacturers’ 3DTV efforts, we were most critical of Samsung’s. While none of the LCD-based 3D TVs really enthused us when it came to 3D (due to annoying crosstalk artefacts), Samsung’s offerings had two other issues that rival LCD TV makers managed to avoid. First, the tri-dimensional modes of the company’s 2010 3D-capable displays were obviously 60hz-centric, because any European-style 50hz video input to the TV showed obvious judder in its 3D display mode. Secondly, Samsung’s 2010 3D LCDs and Plasmas featured poor quality scaling with 3D signals. Scaling in 3D is required for any content that doesn’t deliver Full HD 1080p to each eye, meaning that 720p 3D and Side-by-Side 3D sources were affected. These two issues meant that it was difficult to recommend last

year’s Samsung 3DTV models for use with the Sky 3D channel in the UK, since the video signal is both 50hz and side-by-side encoded!"



and



"... Critically for side-by-side broadcasts, the D8000 LED LCD TV no longer exhibits defective scaling for 3D content delivered in this way – something Samsung should be commended for rectifying."







From a review of the D8000, Samsungs flagship model( i think):

http://www.hdtvtest....01105131065.htm



Its fixed this year, yet the D8000 being Samsungs best, the lower end models may very well still have the problem.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#33
Posted 05/14/2011 08:47 PM   
/w00twave.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00twave:' />

From the Sony NX723 review:

"Finally, there were no problems with scaling in 3D mode. Sony’s 3D TVs have never had issues with this, but we still test for it, since some first-generation displays didn’t retain full detail when re-scaling 720p 3D or Side-by-Side 3D to fit the panel."

...and good day sir...
/pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />
/w00twave.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00twave:' />



From the Sony NX723 review:



"Finally, there were no problems with scaling in 3D mode. Sony’s 3D TVs have never had issues with this, but we still test for it, since some first-generation displays didn’t retain full detail when re-scaling 720p 3D or Side-by-Side 3D to fit the panel."



...and good day sir...

/pirate.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':pirate:' />

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#34
Posted 05/14/2011 09:16 PM   
Libertine, you are sooooo busted. :)

Two flaws here, I'll start with the obvious
1. These reviews were strictly refering to broadcast video, not PC graphics. Nothing in these reviews is in any way related to this thread, much less a comparison of 720P 3D gaming. They are 100% meaningless, invalid.
Nice try though.

2. All my 720P comments are refering to my two month experience with Sony, not Samsung.
I 3D gamed on a Sony 55hx800 for two months before I had any knowledge at all on this topic. At that time, Iknew nothing about checkerboard. All I knew was that how disappointed I was at the poor image quality of my Sony in 3D 720P gaming. I went to forum after forum looking for any remedy. Nvidia told me that checkerboard on any HDTV was impossible, including Samsung. The Samsung brand had no meaning, no advantage over the Sony. In Dec 2010, I read Nobsi's post on getting checkerboard to work on all 2010 Samsungs. I figured "can't be any worse than Sony" so I bought a Samsung plasma from Amazon. When I launched my first game in CB, I wasn't expecting anything, but the image quality upgrade over Sony 720P was so great, a blind man could see it. So your "Samsung 720P sucks, Sony 720P is great" ruse bounces right off of me, I know better, I've gamed on both extensively.
But hey, some noobie might fall for it.

You can try all the deceptions you want, like failing to mention that these articles are strictly for broadcast video and don't apply to PC gaming. Unfortunately for your purposes, it's a hard sell trying to convince anyone, even noobies, that scaled 720P is "just as good" as native resolution. People don't change their desktop rez to 1280x720, and they don't game in 720P if they can help it.
Libertine, you are sooooo busted. :)



Two flaws here, I'll start with the obvious

1. These reviews were strictly refering to broadcast video, not PC graphics. Nothing in these reviews is in any way related to this thread, much less a comparison of 720P 3D gaming. They are 100% meaningless, invalid.

Nice try though.



2. All my 720P comments are refering to my two month experience with Sony, not Samsung.

I 3D gamed on a Sony 55hx800 for two months before I had any knowledge at all on this topic. At that time, Iknew nothing about checkerboard. All I knew was that how disappointed I was at the poor image quality of my Sony in 3D 720P gaming. I went to forum after forum looking for any remedy. Nvidia told me that checkerboard on any HDTV was impossible, including Samsung. The Samsung brand had no meaning, no advantage over the Sony. In Dec 2010, I read Nobsi's post on getting checkerboard to work on all 2010 Samsungs. I figured "can't be any worse than Sony" so I bought a Samsung plasma from Amazon. When I launched my first game in CB, I wasn't expecting anything, but the image quality upgrade over Sony 720P was so great, a blind man could see it. So your "Samsung 720P sucks, Sony 720P is great" ruse bounces right off of me, I know better, I've gamed on both extensively.

But hey, some noobie might fall for it.



You can try all the deceptions you want, like failing to mention that these articles are strictly for broadcast video and don't apply to PC gaming. Unfortunately for your purposes, it's a hard sell trying to convince anyone, even noobies, that scaled 720P is "just as good" as native resolution. People don't change their desktop rez to 1280x720, and they don't game in 720P if they can help it.

#35
Posted 05/14/2011 10:57 PM   
Im trying to get to the truth Roller.

So, now your saying you KNOW that review only dealt with broadcast content, yet they loaded up console games which must be scaled. Do you have a link to support your claim that the scaling mechanism is different for scaled 3D broadcast content and PC content?

For what its worth, i hope your right. Not holding my breath though.
Im trying to get to the truth Roller.



So, now your saying you KNOW that review only dealt with broadcast content, yet they loaded up console games which must be scaled. Do you have a link to support your claim that the scaling mechanism is different for scaled 3D broadcast content and PC content?



For what its worth, i hope your right. Not holding my breath though.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#36
Posted 05/15/2011 12:19 AM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='14 May 2011 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1305418743' post='1237200']
they loaded up console games which must be scaled. [/quote]
And what was their evaluation of scaling/image quality on the console test? Was there any mention of anything about scaling or anything else related to PC image performance? All they said about console performance was it had 33 ms lag. Not only that, they specifically said they set the TV to video mode, not PC mode. And console imaging has no relevance to PC imaging, to different modes.

[quote]Do you have a link to support your claim that the scaling mechanism is different for scaled 3D broadcast content and PC content?[/quote]
In this thread I made so such claim. More to the point, this isn't about scaling differences, it's about mode differences, differences that are clearly visible, not subtle. There may be a white paper discussing their decision to add a seperate PC mode, I wouldn't know. The manual explains how to set the mode to either PC or Video (video is default), is that what you want?
[quote]For what its worth, i hope your right. [/quote]
I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but supplying references to irrelevant articles makes that difficult.
[quote name='Libertine' date='14 May 2011 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1305418743' post='1237200']

they loaded up console games which must be scaled.

And what was their evaluation of scaling/image quality on the console test? Was there any mention of anything about scaling or anything else related to PC image performance? All they said about console performance was it had 33 ms lag. Not only that, they specifically said they set the TV to video mode, not PC mode. And console imaging has no relevance to PC imaging, to different modes.



Do you have a link to support your claim that the scaling mechanism is different for scaled 3D broadcast content and PC content?


In this thread I made so such claim. More to the point, this isn't about scaling differences, it's about mode differences, differences that are clearly visible, not subtle. There may be a white paper discussing their decision to add a seperate PC mode, I wouldn't know. The manual explains how to set the mode to either PC or Video (video is default), is that what you want?

For what its worth, i hope your right.


I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but supplying references to irrelevant articles makes that difficult.

#37
Posted 05/15/2011 01:56 AM   
[quote name='francomg' date='13 May 2011 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1305323976' post='1236859']
Nothing beats 1920x1080p 120hz frame sequential. I've compared many games in both solutions, not talking about hertz 24hz vs 120hz, just the 3D quality and crispy image.
Frame sequential looks superior to frame packing, don't know why though????[/quote]
I've observed the Frame Sequential superiority for 5 months, but like you did not understand the reason until a week ago.
It's because FS and FP use two different modes, PC and Video. Even though you set your HDMI1/DVI input to 'PC' pixel processing mode, the HDTV auto switches out of 'PC' PP mode and into 'Video' PP mode, the game is overridding your setting. This undesirable auto switch is due to frame pack being the mandatory 3D mode in all HDTVs, so there is nothing that can stop it. But checkerboard, Frame seq., and SBS are optional so 3D games stay in superior 'PC' pixel processing mode. This gives 720P frame pack a double curse, low res and wrong mode. That's why you see that 720P FP looks "hideous", and 1080P FP looks only slightly better. This doesn't happen on computer monitors because they aren't designed for broadcast video.
To understand this, open a text document on your desktop, navigate to 'input' from the TV's main menu, and switch between PC mode and Video mode. Notice how bad the text looks in Video mode, how sharp and crisp in PC mode. The image degradation in Video mode is the same degradation you are seeing in a 3D game in FP. Both FP and FS are identical resolution 2x 1920x1080 per frame, but image quality is very different just as you are reporting.

There's only one solution. Let me build you a overlay message suppressor circuit so that you can use checkerboard with your 3D Vision emitter. It will be small and pre-wired, just plug it in. Let me know.
[quote name='francomg' date='13 May 2011 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1305323976' post='1236859']

Nothing beats 1920x1080p 120hz frame sequential. I've compared many games in both solutions, not talking about hertz 24hz vs 120hz, just the 3D quality and crispy image.

Frame sequential looks superior to frame packing, don't know why though????

I've observed the Frame Sequential superiority for 5 months, but like you did not understand the reason until a week ago.

It's because FS and FP use two different modes, PC and Video. Even though you set your HDMI1/DVI input to 'PC' pixel processing mode, the HDTV auto switches out of 'PC' PP mode and into 'Video' PP mode, the game is overridding your setting. This undesirable auto switch is due to frame pack being the mandatory 3D mode in all HDTVs, so there is nothing that can stop it. But checkerboard, Frame seq., and SBS are optional so 3D games stay in superior 'PC' pixel processing mode. This gives 720P frame pack a double curse, low res and wrong mode. That's why you see that 720P FP looks "hideous", and 1080P FP looks only slightly better. This doesn't happen on computer monitors because they aren't designed for broadcast video.

To understand this, open a text document on your desktop, navigate to 'input' from the TV's main menu, and switch between PC mode and Video mode. Notice how bad the text looks in Video mode, how sharp and crisp in PC mode. The image degradation in Video mode is the same degradation you are seeing in a 3D game in FP. Both FP and FS are identical resolution 2x 1920x1080 per frame, but image quality is very different just as you are reporting.



There's only one solution. Let me build you a overlay message suppressor circuit so that you can use checkerboard with your 3D Vision emitter. It will be small and pre-wired, just plug it in. Let me know.

#38
Posted 05/17/2011 03:41 PM   
Roller, i've followed you on here with interest and like what you have tried to do, everyone else seems to either moan and do nothing or be happy with that god awful 720p FP mode, well i'm not, how much do you want for one of your adaptors seeing as i have no experience in circuitry, in the U.K btw. I've sampled CB mode, its the best mode available on my TV so i want to use it, anyone with a Samsung should.
Roller, i've followed you on here with interest and like what you have tried to do, everyone else seems to either moan and do nothing or be happy with that god awful 720p FP mode, well i'm not, how much do you want for one of your adaptors seeing as i have no experience in circuitry, in the U.K btw. I've sampled CB mode, its the best mode available on my TV so i want to use it, anyone with a Samsung should.

#39
Posted 05/17/2011 04:38 PM   
[quote name='Tommygunn777' date='17 May 2011 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1305650306' post='1238375']
Roller, i've followed you on here with interest and like what you have tried to do, everyone else seems to either moan and do nothing or be happy with that god awful 720p FP mode, well i'm not, how much do you want for one of your adaptors seeing as i have no experience in circuitry, in the U.K btw. I've sampled CB mode, its the best mode available on my TV so i want to use it, anyone with a Samsung should.
[/quote]
basically, i want to cover my parts cost plus shipping. Since postal rates vary country to country, I can't do a flat fee that applies to everyone. I'll send you a PM and we'll take it from there.
[quote name='Tommygunn777' date='17 May 2011 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1305650306' post='1238375']

Roller, i've followed you on here with interest and like what you have tried to do, everyone else seems to either moan and do nothing or be happy with that god awful 720p FP mode, well i'm not, how much do you want for one of your adaptors seeing as i have no experience in circuitry, in the U.K btw. I've sampled CB mode, its the best mode available on my TV so i want to use it, anyone with a Samsung should.



basically, i want to cover my parts cost plus shipping. Since postal rates vary country to country, I can't do a flat fee that applies to everyone. I'll send you a PM and we'll take it from there.

#40
Posted 05/17/2011 05:03 PM   
Cool /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />
Cool /thumbup.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbup:' />

#41
Posted 05/17/2011 05:42 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='17 May 2011 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1305651790' post='1238388']
basically, i want to cover my parts cost plus shipping. Since postal rates vary country to country, I can't do a flat fee that applies to everyone. I'll send you a PM and we'll take it from there.
[/quote]
I am in the same camp. I have experimented with tridef, and iz3d drivers after getting tired of the red warning plastered all over the screen using your nvidia fix. They seem to work for the most part but i keep feeling I am getting a bigger frame rate hits then i do with nvidia drivers? (is that true?)

Anyway since it seem that nvidia is taking forever to eliminate the red warning text (why can't they just make it time out?) i would also appreciate an estimate for one of your magic red text removal gizmos. I have an Mits 82 inch dlp which I am dieing to use effectively in 3d. Sad that it's so hard.

Thanks also for helping to shed light on all this. PM me pls.
[quote name='roller11' date='17 May 2011 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1305651790' post='1238388']

basically, i want to cover my parts cost plus shipping. Since postal rates vary country to country, I can't do a flat fee that applies to everyone. I'll send you a PM and we'll take it from there.



I am in the same camp. I have experimented with tridef, and iz3d drivers after getting tired of the red warning plastered all over the screen using your nvidia fix. They seem to work for the most part but i keep feeling I am getting a bigger frame rate hits then i do with nvidia drivers? (is that true?)



Anyway since it seem that nvidia is taking forever to eliminate the red warning text (why can't they just make it time out?) i would also appreciate an estimate for one of your magic red text removal gizmos. I have an Mits 82 inch dlp which I am dieing to use effectively in 3d. Sad that it's so hard.



Thanks also for helping to shed light on all this. PM me pls.

#42
Posted 05/17/2011 05:49 PM   
Tommy,
PM sent!
Tommy,

PM sent!

#43
Posted 05/17/2011 05:49 PM   
[quote name='Edo1946' date='17 May 2011 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1305654571' post='1238427']
I am in the same camp. I have experimented with tridef, and iz3d drivers after getting tired of the red warning plastered all over the screen using your nvidia fix. They seem to work for the most part but i keep feeling I am getting a bigger frame rate hits then i do with nvidia drivers? (is that true?)

Anyway since it seem that nvidia is taking forever to eliminate the red warning text (why can't they just make it time out?) i would also appreciate an estimate for one of your magic red text removal gizmos. I have an Mits 82 inch dlp which I am dieing to use effectively in 3d. Sad that it's so hard.

Thanks also for helping to shed light on all this. PM me pls.
[/quote]
Your DLP doesn't have a 'sync out' signal?
[quote name='Edo1946' date='17 May 2011 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1305654571' post='1238427']

I am in the same camp. I have experimented with tridef, and iz3d drivers after getting tired of the red warning plastered all over the screen using your nvidia fix. They seem to work for the most part but i keep feeling I am getting a bigger frame rate hits then i do with nvidia drivers? (is that true?)



Anyway since it seem that nvidia is taking forever to eliminate the red warning text (why can't they just make it time out?) i would also appreciate an estimate for one of your magic red text removal gizmos. I have an Mits 82 inch dlp which I am dieing to use effectively in 3d. Sad that it's so hard.



Thanks also for helping to shed light on all this. PM me pls.



Your DLP doesn't have a 'sync out' signal?

#44
Posted 05/17/2011 05:52 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='17 May 2011 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1305654735' post='1238430']
Your DLP doesn't have a 'sync out' signal?
[/quote]

nope , not that I recognize, I only have a 3d glasses emitter output for the ir glasses. here is the link for the owners manual if that helps http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/738-838_BIB_v3.pdf
[quote name='roller11' date='17 May 2011 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1305654735' post='1238430']

Your DLP doesn't have a 'sync out' signal?





nope , not that I recognize, I only have a 3d glasses emitter output for the ir glasses. here is the link for the owners manual if that helps http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/738-838_BIB_v3.pdf

#45
Posted 05/17/2011 06:07 PM   
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