1080P 3d even theoretically possible on ps4/xbo? hdmi
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[quote="mbloof"]I have a PS3 and most of the '3D' titles available for it. While Uncharted3 was a visually stunning game in itself IMHO the '3D' was meh and more of the standard 2D+depth the platform was able to provide.[/quote] Uncharted 3 was not 2D+depth. It was true dual rendering. If you found the 3D to be disappointing, you probably didn't configure the game or the system correctly. Off the top of my head, here are some PS3 games that used 2D+depth: Assassin's Creed Revelations Arkham City Here are some PS3 games that used dual rendering: Uncharted 3 Resistance 3 Killzone 3 Super Stardust HD Motorstorm Rift Ico/Shadow of the Colossus HD Prince of Persia HD collection God of War PSP HD ports There actually weren't that many 2D+depth games on PS3. 2D+depth is also not exclusive to consoles. On PC, there's Crysis 2 and 3, as well as Tridef Power 3D.
mbloof said:I have a PS3 and most of the '3D' titles available for it. While Uncharted3 was a visually stunning game in itself IMHO the '3D' was meh and more of the standard 2D+depth the platform was able to provide.


Uncharted 3 was not 2D+depth. It was true dual rendering. If you found the 3D to be disappointing, you probably didn't configure the game or the system correctly.

Off the top of my head, here are some PS3 games that used 2D+depth:

Assassin's Creed Revelations
Arkham City

Here are some PS3 games that used dual rendering:

Uncharted 3
Resistance 3
Killzone 3
Super Stardust HD
Motorstorm Rift
Ico/Shadow of the Colossus HD
Prince of Persia HD collection
God of War PSP HD ports

There actually weren't that many 2D+depth games on PS3. 2D+depth is also not exclusive to consoles. On PC, there's Crysis 2 and 3, as well as Tridef Power 3D.

#16
Posted 09/11/2013 01:23 PM   
On a separate note, as far as UHD on the PS4, it's almost certainly meant for video, not games. The PS3 was not built for 1080p gaming, but the system supported 1080p for 2D Blu-rays at the start, and even had enough future proofing to support 1080p 3D Blu-rays today. The PS4 will likely be the same. 720p/1080p for games, but support for future 4k UHD for video, whether that ends up being Blu-ray, downloads, or something else. But other than possibly a few exceptions, not for gaming.
On a separate note, as far as UHD on the PS4, it's almost certainly meant for video, not games. The PS3 was not built for 1080p gaming, but the system supported 1080p for 2D Blu-rays at the start, and even had enough future proofing to support 1080p 3D Blu-rays today. The PS4 will likely be the same. 720p/1080p for games, but support for future 4k UHD for video, whether that ends up being Blu-ray, downloads, or something else. But other than possibly a few exceptions, not for gaming.

#17
Posted 09/11/2013 01:29 PM   
While these looked good enough: Super Stardust HD Motorstorm Rift Prince of Persia HD collection I was rather underwhelmed by the 3D in Uncharted3. View a few scenes without your glasses on and you'll see why - the atypical fake3D bit shifting effect(s) was used throughout most of the time. The same 3D uglyness that can be found in Killzone3 and Blackops1. If you liked it - great.
While these looked good enough:

Super Stardust HD
Motorstorm Rift
Prince of Persia HD collection

I was rather underwhelmed by the 3D in Uncharted3. View a few scenes without your glasses on and you'll see why - the atypical fake3D bit shifting effect(s) was used throughout most of the time.

The same 3D uglyness that can be found in Killzone3 and Blackops1.

If you liked it - great.

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#18
Posted 09/11/2013 01:50 PM   
According to the developers, it was dual rendering: [url]http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12943:gdc-2012-part-iib&catid=39&Itemid=77[/url] With my PS3 screen size set to 11", and the game's depth slider set to about 20%, I get maximum depth on my screen (which I physical measure with a ruler). I've played through the game twice in 3D and I never noticed any 3D artifacts. Meanwhile I can't play 2D+depth at all because the artifacts are so obvious and distracting to me. Perhaps the "3D uglyness" you saw was due to low resolution. Uncharted 3, Killzone 3, Blockops, they all definitely ran sub 720p. Given that I can understand why some people didn't like the game in 3D. 2D+depth, however, I think this is factually incorrect.
According to the developers, it was dual rendering: http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12943:gdc-2012-part-iib&catid=39&Itemid=77

With my PS3 screen size set to 11", and the game's depth slider set to about 20%, I get maximum depth on my screen (which I physical measure with a ruler). I've played through the game twice in 3D and I never noticed any 3D artifacts. Meanwhile I can't play 2D+depth at all because the artifacts are so obvious and distracting to me.

Perhaps the "3D uglyness" you saw was due to low resolution. Uncharted 3, Killzone 3, Blockops, they all definitely ran sub 720p. Given that I can understand why some people didn't like the game in 3D. 2D+depth, however, I think this is factually incorrect.

#19
Posted 09/11/2013 09:36 PM   
Yes, I was about to say, it's verrry important to set your screen size to much lower than it actually is to get full 3d depth out of a ps3. This is pretty much a workaround "depth control" for ps3. Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts? Certain scenes are MUCH better than others with 3d - particularly, indoor shots seem to be a lot more impressive than outdoor (though to some extent I've found this to be the case with 3d in general). Uncharted might not quite at the level of tomb raider or Metro on PC, but imho, it's darn close (again, IMPERATIVE that you lower screen size). Each to his own opinion and I suppose it's subjective, but properly configured I don't even see how Uncharted 3 could be mistaken for 2d+depth. The Chandelier scene on the cruise ship comes to mind in particular. For me, the absolute BEST use of 3d on ps3 is Zen Pinball 2. There are a few tables to be avoided where it doesn't seem to implement properly (exactly 2, actually -Empire Strikes Back and Blade), but the rest, it's absolutely beautiful. Something about the cluttered nature of a pinball table gives a lot of points of contrast for varying depth, and really brings out the effect. If anyone hasn't tried it I highly, highly recommend it, it easily hangs up there with the best 3d on my pc, and I go back to it often - didn't even really care for pinball much before. And the first table is free! Might even be some additional free Star Wars tables for ps+ right now, I forget.
Yes, I was about to say, it's verrry important to set your screen size to much lower than it actually is to get full 3d depth out of a ps3. This is pretty much a workaround "depth control" for ps3.

Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts? Certain scenes are MUCH better than others with 3d - particularly, indoor shots seem to be a lot more impressive than outdoor (though to some extent I've found this to be the case with 3d in general). Uncharted might not quite at the level of tomb raider or Metro on PC, but imho, it's darn close (again, IMPERATIVE that you lower screen size). Each to his own opinion and I suppose it's subjective, but properly configured I don't even see how Uncharted 3 could be mistaken for 2d+depth. The Chandelier scene on the cruise ship comes to mind in particular.

For me, the absolute BEST use of 3d on ps3 is Zen Pinball 2. There are a few tables to be avoided where it doesn't seem to implement properly (exactly 2, actually -Empire Strikes Back and Blade), but the rest, it's absolutely beautiful. Something about the cluttered nature of a pinball table gives a lot of points of contrast for varying depth, and really brings out the effect. If anyone hasn't tried it I highly, highly recommend it, it easily hangs up there with the best 3d on my pc, and I go back to it often - didn't even really care for pinball much before. And the first table is free! Might even be some additional free Star Wars tables for ps+ right now, I forget.

#20
Posted 09/11/2013 10:15 PM   
Sorry for double-post, is there no way to edit your posts here? Missed some comments. Airion, I agree, he may just not be used to the lower textures/resolution/general bells and whistles. There's no disputing that the graphical quality within the 3d is vastly inferior to what a decent pc can do, but the 3d depth and "contrast" itself should be comparable. And yeah, there are more "true" 3d games than 2d+depth, though some haven't implemented all that well. I was fairly let down with Shadow of the Colossus 3d - though I actually found it functionally helpful in some boss battles, judging jump distance. And at least one more 2d+depth is, as I think I mentioned in one post, Ratchet and Clank. There are a few here, HD collection and that new crappy 30fps tower defense one. THAT is some of the worst 3d on the system. If it's not actually just 2d+depth, though I think it is, it's just horribly, horribly implemented 3d. I'm not sure why they tried to make Wipeout HD a "flagship" for the 3d on the system. IMHO, it was pretty bad. The frame rate was cut in half, and much of the beauty of wipeout comes from the silky frames. And the 3d was "meh" anyway. Great choice to show off if you want people to be underwhelmed. But perhaps we can give a mulligan, as this was one of the very first attempts at 3d on the system. But anyway, the point is we saw with some games that ps3 was quite capable of quality 3d, with little drop in framerate, if it was done right.
Sorry for double-post, is there no way to edit your posts here? Missed some comments. Airion, I agree, he may just not be used to the lower textures/resolution/general bells and whistles. There's no disputing that the graphical quality within the 3d is vastly inferior to what a decent pc can do, but the 3d depth and "contrast" itself should be comparable. And yeah, there are more "true" 3d games than 2d+depth, though some haven't implemented all that well. I was fairly let down with Shadow of the Colossus 3d - though I actually found it functionally helpful in some boss battles, judging jump distance.

And at least one more 2d+depth is, as I think I mentioned in one post, Ratchet and Clank. There are a few here, HD collection and that new crappy 30fps tower defense one. THAT is some of the worst 3d on the system. If it's not actually just 2d+depth, though I think it is, it's just horribly, horribly implemented 3d.

I'm not sure why they tried to make Wipeout HD a "flagship" for the 3d on the system. IMHO, it was pretty bad. The frame rate was cut in half, and much of the beauty of wipeout comes from the silky frames. And the 3d was "meh" anyway. Great choice to show off if you want people to be underwhelmed. But perhaps we can give a mulligan, as this was one of the very first attempts at 3d on the system.

But anyway, the point is we saw with some games that ps3 was quite capable of quality 3d, with little drop in framerate, if it was done right.

#21
Posted 09/11/2013 10:29 PM   
[quote="Nerdjitsu"] Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts? [/quote] I also played uncharted 3, I bought it at same time I got my hmz-t1[no longer have]. I was pretty disappointed as well tbh. I tried cheating depth as well but to no avail. Problem is game hardly offers any convergence similiar to RE5 [probably worse]. So you are left with a practically flat image imo. Cutscenes may seem alright, I really dont remember but there is really like no difference between 5 feet away from camera -> 100 feet. Zen Pinball 2 is on steam btw [not sure if you didnt know, its just rebranded pinball fx2]
Nerdjitsu said:
Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts?


I also played uncharted 3, I bought it at same time I got my hmz-t1[no longer have]. I was pretty disappointed as well tbh. I tried cheating depth as well but to no avail. Problem is game hardly offers any convergence similiar to RE5 [probably worse]. So you are left with a practically flat image imo. Cutscenes may seem alright, I really dont remember but there is really like no difference between 5 feet away from camera -> 100 feet.

Zen Pinball 2 is on steam btw [not sure if you didnt know, its just rebranded pinball fx2]

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#22
Posted 09/11/2013 11:30 PM   
You mean that you have to 'fake' it out and somewhere tell it your screen is smaller than what it really is? That surely could be part of the problem. While the artwork made me wonder how on earth this could be coming out of a PS3 and I liked the little that I saw I got stuck in a fairly short make-wrong-decision-die-reboot loop very early on and abandoned the game then and there. Its been over a years since I've even turned on my PS3. When I take off my 3D glasses I expect to see the ghosting of two distinct images. I suppose if there was little or no depth (because of screen size setting) that could explain why I was seeing very little or no ghosting at all and my lack of enjoyment of the 3D. Killzone3 I got stuck attempting to fly a jetpack thinkie. I kinda suck at some shooters. Most of my Blackops time was fairly evenly split between soloing the zombies (for some after work frustration relief) and doing NP-Robot training missions. I never have any interest in online multiplayer modes and the campaign in BO was not worth messing with. I recall Sony mentioning that the PS4 could do 3D but when pressed they mentioned "its not our focus" and went onto elude to the rest of the industry not having much interest in it ether. I almost pre-ordered a PS4 but without any "focus" or mention of some or ANY titles supporting it I decided on a wait and see attitude.
You mean that you have to 'fake' it out and somewhere tell it your screen is smaller than what it really is? That surely could be part of the problem. While the artwork made me wonder how on earth this could be coming out of a PS3 and I liked the little that I saw I got stuck in a fairly short make-wrong-decision-die-reboot loop very early on and abandoned the game then and there. Its been over a years since I've even turned on my PS3.

When I take off my 3D glasses I expect to see the ghosting of two distinct images. I suppose if there was little or no depth (because of screen size setting) that could explain why I was seeing very little or no ghosting at all and my lack of enjoyment of the 3D.

Killzone3 I got stuck attempting to fly a jetpack thinkie. I kinda suck at some shooters. Most of my Blackops time was fairly evenly split between soloing the zombies (for some after work frustration relief) and doing NP-Robot training missions. I never have any interest in online multiplayer modes and the campaign in BO was not worth messing with.

I recall Sony mentioning that the PS4 could do 3D but when pressed they mentioned "its not our focus" and went onto elude to the rest of the industry not having much interest in it ether. I almost pre-ordered a PS4 but without any "focus" or mention of some or ANY titles supporting it I decided on a wait and see attitude.

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#23
Posted 09/12/2013 01:44 AM   
[quote="mbloof"]You mean that you have to 'fake' it out and somewhere tell it your screen is smaller than what it really is? That surely could be part of the problem.[/quote] That's right. When you go into the PS3 display setup options and ask it to automatically detect your display, it will ask you for the screen size. This value affects default/max depth and convergence, although every game handles it a little differently. As I mentioned before, with my PS3 set to 11" display size, I reached maximum depth on my 90" screen (6.0 cm separation for objects at infinity) with only about 20% of Uncharted 3's in game 3D strength slider. While the game was apparently designed to not have much pop out, maximum depth is definitely achievable. In fact with these settings, the cutscenes looked jarringly flat to me compared to the strength of 3D during gameplay.
mbloof said:You mean that you have to 'fake' it out and somewhere tell it your screen is smaller than what it really is? That surely could be part of the problem.


That's right. When you go into the PS3 display setup options and ask it to automatically detect your display, it will ask you for the screen size. This value affects default/max depth and convergence, although every game handles it a little differently.

As I mentioned before, with my PS3 set to 11" display size, I reached maximum depth on my 90" screen (6.0 cm separation for objects at infinity) with only about 20% of Uncharted 3's in game 3D strength slider. While the game was apparently designed to not have much pop out, maximum depth is definitely achievable. In fact with these settings, the cutscenes looked jarringly flat to me compared to the strength of 3D during gameplay.

#24
Posted 09/12/2013 02:19 AM   
[quote="eqzitara"][quote="Nerdjitsu"] Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts? [/quote] I also played uncharted 3, I bought it at same time I got my hmz-t1[no longer have]. I was pretty disappointed as well tbh. I tried cheating depth as well but to no avail. Problem is game hardly offers any convergence similiar to RE5 [probably worse]. So you are left with a practically flat image imo. Cutscenes may seem alright, I really dont remember but there is really like no difference between 5 feet away from camera -> 100 feet. Zen Pinball 2 is on steam btw [not sure if you didnt know, its just rebranded pinball fx2][/quote] Huh... as with mbloof, did you try it for a little and give up? Now that I think of it, I don't even think I tried it until I was a little ways into the game, so it's possible there was some terrible 3d at the beginning that I missed. I never tried RE5, so I can't compare. If you have a copy and a save file, and wanted to see, I would recommend going straight to the cruise ship and turning on the 3d - and of course setting your screen size at least 25% smaller than it actually is. My sweet spot was somewhere like 17-20 inches for a 27 inch screen, though it varies with game. I HAVE noticed that it's not all that great later in the game, with the wide open, dusty stages. The crappy framerate in that part of the game doesn't help much. Though the word "flat" is not something I would apply to anywhere in the game I've seen, that makes me wonder... I didn't realize Zen Pinball was on Steam as well, but it sure doesn't surprise me. Seeing as how it's on ps3, Xbox (also under pinball fx), 3ds, ios, vita, frankly I guess I'd be surprised if there was a platform it wasn't on :-D The downside of this is that they don't seem focused enough to ever patch issues in any of the individual versions. The Ipad version had stupid small "action" buttons for many years, seemingly because they were the pixels from 720p versions and the Ipad retina rez was much higher, and they STILL haven't addressed the 3d issues on those tables I mentioned before. Empire is relatively new, but Blade is at least 2 years old.
eqzitara said:
Nerdjitsu said:
Also, Mbloof, did you play through all of Uncharted 3 in 3d, or maybe just try it in certain parts?


I also played uncharted 3, I bought it at same time I got my hmz-t1[no longer have]. I was pretty disappointed as well tbh. I tried cheating depth as well but to no avail. Problem is game hardly offers any convergence similiar to RE5 [probably worse]. So you are left with a practically flat image imo. Cutscenes may seem alright, I really dont remember but there is really like no difference between 5 feet away from camera -> 100 feet.

Zen Pinball 2 is on steam btw [not sure if you didnt know, its just rebranded pinball fx2]


Huh... as with mbloof, did you try it for a little and give up? Now that I think of it, I don't even think I tried it until I was a little ways into the game, so it's possible there was some terrible 3d at the beginning that I missed. I never tried RE5, so I can't compare. If you have a copy and a save file, and wanted to see, I would recommend going straight to the cruise ship and turning on the 3d - and of course setting your screen size at least 25% smaller than it actually is. My sweet spot was somewhere like 17-20 inches for a 27 inch screen, though it varies with game. I HAVE noticed that it's not all that great later in the game, with the wide open, dusty stages. The crappy framerate in that part of the game doesn't help much. Though the word "flat" is not something I would apply to anywhere in the game I've seen, that makes me wonder...

I didn't realize Zen Pinball was on Steam as well, but it sure doesn't surprise me. Seeing as how it's on ps3, Xbox (also under pinball fx), 3ds, ios, vita, frankly I guess I'd be surprised if there was a platform it wasn't on :-D The downside of this is that they don't seem focused enough to ever patch issues in any of the individual versions. The Ipad version had stupid small "action" buttons for many years, seemingly because they were the pixels from 720p versions and the Ipad retina rez was much higher, and they STILL haven't addressed the 3d issues on those tables I mentioned before. Empire is relatively new, but Blade is at least 2 years old.

#25
Posted 09/12/2013 05:24 AM   
Even if HDMI 2.0 could happen we will not see 1080p/60hz "real3D" games(AAA). Hardware is just too weak for this. It is known that many AAA titles will do only 1080p/30hz at launch. It will be almost certain that those that will do 1080p/60hz is actually rendered lower res or visually far from 1080p/30hz titles. There is also not as big jump in visuals over the time as this time both cosoles should be quite easy to developers.
Even if HDMI 2.0 could happen we will not see 1080p/60hz "real3D" games(AAA). Hardware is just too weak for this. It is known that many AAA titles will do only 1080p/30hz at launch. It will be almost certain that those that will do 1080p/60hz is actually rendered lower res or visually far from 1080p/30hz titles. There is also not as big jump in visuals over the time as this time both cosoles should be quite easy to developers.

#26
Posted 09/12/2013 03:16 PM   
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