Is 3dVision dying?
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[quote="TsaebehT"][quote="teardropmina"]3D Vision isn't "dying," it's already in Zombie mode...[/quote] Pretty much sums it up BUT that's not saying stereoscopic 3D is dead or dying, if anything I think it's in it's infancy stages at best. With Windows 8 and DX 11.1 natively supporting S3D there should be less need for '3D Vision, HD3D, and TriDef', all pulling in different directions and things like that have only been hurting S3D support in the long run. With S3D being handled at the OS & core driver level, there's less worries at the developmental level about segregating S3D support to only one camp. Which is most likely why many of them have tried to implement it in their games instead. I only wish I knew about the Win8/DX11.1/S3D when they were promoting Win8 with the $40 upgrades, now it's up to $120.[/quote] This is really interesting! I've found this article that mentions what you're saying: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20121114130903_Microsoft_DirectX_11_1_with_Native_Stereo_3D_Output_Is_Exclusive_for_Windows_8.html . This is great since one of the biggest problems of 3d is it's market segmentation with three different 3d providers giving headaches to willing consumers. This also may help explain Nvidia leaving the 3d camp, since it's going the way of Soundblaster music cards and other hardware that dissapeared once MS included all the necessary drivers in the OS making them obsolete. Hopefully then, we may be facing a gap of a year or two until DirectX 11.1 games start to show and become immediately 3d ready, and maybe xbox next with directx 11.1 support will be the console to purchase for 3d gamers after all.
TsaebehT said:
teardropmina said:3D Vision isn't "dying," it's already in Zombie mode...


Pretty much sums it up BUT that's not saying stereoscopic 3D is dead or dying, if anything I think it's in it's infancy stages at best. With Windows 8 and DX 11.1 natively supporting S3D there should be less need for '3D Vision, HD3D, and TriDef', all pulling in different directions and things like that have only been hurting S3D support in the long run.

With S3D being handled at the OS & core driver level, there's less worries at the developmental level about segregating S3D support to only one camp. Which is most likely why many of them have tried to implement it in their games instead. I only wish I knew about the Win8/DX11.1/S3D when they were promoting Win8 with the $40 upgrades, now it's up to $120.


This is really interesting! I've found this article that mentions what you're saying: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20121114130903_Microsoft_DirectX_11_1_with_Native_Stereo_3D_Output_Is_Exclusive_for_Windows_8.html . This is great since one of the biggest problems of 3d is it's market segmentation with three different 3d providers giving headaches to willing consumers.

This also may help explain Nvidia leaving the 3d camp, since it's going the way of Soundblaster music cards and other hardware that dissapeared once MS included all the necessary drivers in the OS making them obsolete.

Hopefully then, we may be facing a gap of a year or two until DirectX 11.1 games start to show and become immediately 3d ready, and maybe xbox next with directx 11.1 support will be the console to purchase for 3d gamers after all.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#16
Posted 03/25/2013 03:17 PM   
While I was watching the video of the NVIDIA Face Works demo, the whole time I'm being wowed there's this nagging sense in the back of my mind no matter how good it looks, it's still just a video, it's still just 2D. There's just a sense of realism that S3D adds to a game or movie. Unfortunate as it is with movies the effect has to be baked in, assumingly with a lower IPD in mind for the kids. I just finished Tomb Raider, and now I'm starting Dishonored. One game has a very realistic aesthetic to it and the other a quite contrasting cartoonish aesthetic to it, yet both look extremely realistic in S3D. Extremely realistic! All because of the depth added to the scene. This realism adds to immersion like nothing else, except maybe 3-Dimensional sound. It's really tantalizing one of your senses, as odd as that sounds, but it truly is. [url]http://youtu.be/CvaGd4KqlvQ[/url]
While I was watching the video of the NVIDIA Face Works demo, the whole time I'm being wowed there's this nagging sense in the back of my mind no matter how good it looks, it's still just a video, it's still just 2D. There's just a sense of realism that S3D adds to a game or movie. Unfortunate as it is with movies the effect has to be baked in, assumingly with a lower IPD in mind for the kids.

I just finished Tomb Raider, and now I'm starting Dishonored. One game has a very realistic aesthetic to it and the other a quite contrasting cartoonish aesthetic to it, yet both look extremely realistic in S3D. Extremely realistic! All because of the depth added to the scene. This realism adds to immersion like nothing else, except maybe 3-Dimensional sound. It's really tantalizing one of your senses, as odd as that sounds, but it truly is.


http://youtu.be/CvaGd4KqlvQ
#17
Posted 03/25/2013 03:46 PM   
[quote="TsaebehT"]This realism adds to immersion like nothing else, except maybe 3-Dimensional sound. It's really tantalizing one of your senses, as odd as that sounds, but it truly is.[/quote] We all know that. The issue is the amount of people who don't. It galls me rotten when the professional industy comes to the verdict 3D adds very little to the table and is a gimmick. For instance the hardware dude (Dave James?) of the UK version of PC Gamer always has a little dig at 3D. This is so frustrating because I have no idea why he is of that opinion. I have demoed 3D to alot of people and everyone one of them has said stuff on the lines of, 'I was suprised how good it was'. It took a media teacher colleague of mine less than 5 seconds to state gaming was not a gimmick. This was after telling me, frequently, 3D was a utter waste of time! My thoughts are that these professional guys only have a brief chance to look at the hardware. They consequently use nVIdia's bizaar default settings and don't dabble with convergence. If this is all they see of 3D, I understand why they think 3D is a load of rubbish.
TsaebehT said:This realism adds to immersion like nothing else, except maybe 3-Dimensional sound. It's really tantalizing one of your senses, as odd as that sounds, but it truly is.


We all know that.

The issue is the amount of people who don't.

It galls me rotten when the professional industy comes to the verdict 3D adds very little to the table and is a gimmick. For instance the hardware dude (Dave James?) of the UK version of PC Gamer always has a little dig at 3D. This is so frustrating because I have no idea why he is of that opinion.

I have demoed 3D to alot of people and everyone one of them has said stuff on the lines of, 'I was suprised how good it was'. It took a media teacher colleague of mine less than 5 seconds to state gaming was not a gimmick. This was after telling me, frequently, 3D was a utter waste of time!

My thoughts are that these professional guys only have a brief chance to look at the hardware. They consequently use nVIdia's bizaar default settings and don't dabble with convergence. If this is all they see of 3D, I understand why they think 3D is a load of rubbish.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#18
Posted 03/25/2013 04:17 PM   
Well we can only hope that the Rift will be a sucess and by everything I read up on it and how much the developers praise it so it seems it will take the world by storm. It is like the holy grail, it cant fail :) Really dissapointed what I read here about the Bioshock Infinity as I say the same as you guys about playing in 2d sucks, to flat and lifeless so I pretty much hate it and cant play in 2d anymore. A worrying trend this but there seems to be light with the Rift so heres hoping for a 3d gaming future or else I may just quit playing at all as goin back to 2d is just to bad.
Well we can only hope that the Rift will be a sucess and by everything I read up on it and how much the developers praise it so it seems it will take the world by storm.

It is like the holy grail, it cant fail :)

Really dissapointed what I read here about the Bioshock Infinity as I say the same as you guys about playing in 2d sucks, to flat and lifeless so I pretty much hate it and cant play in 2d anymore.

A worrying trend this but there seems to be light with the Rift so heres hoping for a 3d gaming future or else I may just quit playing at all as goin back to 2d is just to bad.

#19
Posted 03/25/2013 07:15 PM   
Its expensive, and too much hassle to pick up any real popularity. But once we have a DX11 Helix fix we'll be fine, some of the best 3D games come out of community fixes.
Its expensive, and too much hassle to pick up any real popularity. But once we have a DX11 Helix fix we'll be fine, some of the best 3D games come out of community fixes.

#20
Posted 03/25/2013 08:06 PM   
You have to invest a lot of money to play decently in 3D, that is the main reason of the 3D death. 120hz monitors shoud not have been so expensive, and graphic cards should have integrate things to compensate the low framerates when using 3D. The final result is that 3D is played properly only for a select group of people, and in that way it is impossible to be a success.
You have to invest a lot of money to play decently in 3D, that is the main reason of the 3D death. 120hz monitors shoud not have been so expensive, and graphic cards should have integrate things to compensate the low framerates when using 3D. The final result is that 3D is played properly only for a select group of people, and in that way it is impossible to be a success.

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#21
Posted 03/25/2013 08:31 PM   
The good news is that a secondary purpose of 3D Vision is becoming very popular: LightBoost You may have seen discussion about this in places like [url=http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/motion_blur.htm]TFTCentral Motion Blur Reduction Backlights[/url] (LightBoost is one of those), the popular [url=http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/lightboost]Blur Busters LightBoost HOWTO[/url] and other [url=http://www.blurbusters.com/zero-motion-blur/media]media coverage about LightBoost 2D[/url] (pcmonitors, NewEgg, ASUS, etc). [b]In fact, if you google "LightBoost", you'll see LightBoost has recently become more popular for motion blur elimination[/b], instead of its original purpose (3D Vision). You even see it in the Amazon customer reviews that more people mention LightBoost for its motion blur elimination abilities, than for 3D Vision! LightBoost sales have taken off in the last 6 weeks -- ASUS acknowledged this.
The good news is that a secondary purpose of 3D Vision is becoming very popular: LightBoost

You may have seen discussion about this in places like TFTCentral Motion Blur Reduction Backlights (LightBoost is one of those), the popular Blur Busters LightBoost HOWTO and other media coverage about LightBoost 2D (pcmonitors, NewEgg, ASUS, etc).

In fact, if you google "LightBoost", you'll see LightBoost has recently become more popular for motion blur elimination, instead of its original purpose (3D Vision). You even see it in the Amazon customer reviews that more people mention LightBoost for its motion blur elimination abilities, than for 3D Vision!

LightBoost sales have taken off in the last 6 weeks -- ASUS acknowledged this.

#22
Posted 03/25/2013 10:26 PM   
Last week I tried using Lightboost in 2D to see what all the rave is about, and I couldn't determine any noticeable improvement. Maybe because 120hz already eliminates blur over 60, but I don't know. Whatever it is that it's eliminating never bothered me in the past, at least with modern monitors. (was using Dear Esther in the caves segment)
Last week I tried using Lightboost in 2D to see what all the rave is about, and I couldn't determine any noticeable improvement. Maybe because 120hz already eliminates blur over 60, but I don't know. Whatever it is that it's eliminating never bothered me in the past, at least with modern monitors.
(was using Dear Esther in the caves segment)

#23
Posted 03/25/2013 10:38 PM   
Edit: Guess I misunderstood. Never tried it.
Edit: Guess I misunderstood. Never tried it.

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#24
Posted 03/25/2013 10:49 PM   
[quote="eqzitara"]@drayth Its for people with vision issues with motion blur/ competitive gamers. No motion blur gives advantage. I actually think motion blur is the most ridiculous idea for third person games but thats me.[/quote]We're not talking about GPU-based motion blur. We're talking about display-based motion blur. [quote="Drayth"]Last week I tried using Lightboost in 2D to see what all the rave is about, and I couldn't determine any noticeable improvement. Maybe because 120hz already eliminates blur over 60, but I don't know. Whatever it is that it's eliminating never bothered me in the past, at least with modern monitors. (was using Dear Esther in the caves segment) [/quote]Dear Esther isn't a fast action game and dark environments don't help much. You don't really need LightBoost for Dear Esther; due to its slow action nature. Example of fast game play styles that benefit the most from zero motion blur: -- Fast 180-degree flick turns in FPS shooting, great for Quake Live -- Shooting while turning, without stopping turning (easier on CRT or LightBoost) -- Close-up strafing, especially circle strafing, you aim better. -- Running while looking at the ground (e.g. hunting for tiny objects quickly). -- Identifying multiple far-away enemies or small targets, while turning fast -- Playing fast characters such as "Scout" in Team Fortress 2 -- High-speed low passes, such as low helicoptor flybys in Battlefield 3, you aim better. -- Benefits high-detail high-contrast bright/dark details panning at high speeds (e.g. fast moving while looking at floor/cieling, circle strafing, strafing in front of close-range objects, etc) -- You really need fps=Hz (e.g. 120fps @ 120Hz) to get proper CRT motion effect. LightBoost also needs fps=Hz to sing, much like CRT's does, as well. The HardForum and overclock.net users are typically using GTX680's and Titans. So it will not benefit newer games like Crysis 3 at Ultra detail (unless you've got Titan's or better) because the LightBoost effect completely disappears if you run at only half frame rate (e.g. 60fps).
eqzitara said:@drayth
Its for people with vision issues with motion blur/ competitive gamers. No motion blur gives advantage. I actually think motion blur is the most ridiculous idea for third person games but thats me.
We're not talking about GPU-based motion blur.
We're talking about display-based motion blur.

Drayth said:Last week I tried using Lightboost in 2D to see what all the rave is about, and I couldn't determine any noticeable improvement. Maybe because 120hz already eliminates blur over 60, but I don't know. Whatever it is that it's eliminating never bothered me in the past, at least with modern monitors.
(was using Dear Esther in the caves segment)
Dear Esther isn't a fast action game and dark environments don't help much.
You don't really need LightBoost for Dear Esther; due to its slow action nature.

Example of fast game play styles that benefit the most from zero motion blur:
-- Fast 180-degree flick turns in FPS shooting, great for Quake Live
-- Shooting while turning, without stopping turning (easier on CRT or LightBoost)
-- Close-up strafing, especially circle strafing, you aim better.
-- Running while looking at the ground (e.g. hunting for tiny objects quickly).
-- Identifying multiple far-away enemies or small targets, while turning fast
-- Playing fast characters such as "Scout" in Team Fortress 2
-- High-speed low passes, such as low helicoptor flybys in Battlefield 3, you aim better.
-- Benefits high-detail high-contrast bright/dark details panning at high speeds (e.g. fast moving while looking at floor/cieling, circle strafing, strafing in front of close-range objects, etc)
-- You really need fps=Hz (e.g. 120fps @ 120Hz) to get proper CRT motion effect. LightBoost also needs fps=Hz to sing, much like CRT's does, as well. The HardForum and overclock.net users are typically using GTX680's and Titans. So it will not benefit newer games like Crysis 3 at Ultra detail (unless you've got Titan's or better) because the LightBoost effect completely disappears if you run at only half frame rate (e.g. 60fps).

#25
Posted 03/25/2013 10:51 PM   
[quote="birthright"]This is really interesting! I've found this article that mentions what you're saying: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20121114130903_Microsoft_DirectX_11_1_with_Native_Stereo_3D_Output_Is_Exclusive_for_Windows_8.html[/quote] Microsoft's original stance was that it would be limited to W8. But I think they knew all along that they would make it available for W7 and only said it to help initial W8 sales. But anyways "Windows 8 is to feature the full DirectX 11.1 Runtime package, including Direct3D 11.1, Direct2D, DirectWrite, DXGI 1.2 and a revised version of Windows Imaging Component. For Windows 7, parts of these features will be made available through an update for Windows 7 SP1 and Windows Server 2008 R2 Service Pack 1. The Service Pack 1 update installs several APIs for DirectX 11.1, but will support just the WDDM 1.1 drivers, and not Windows 8's WDDM 1.2 drivers. Direct3D 11 is also available, including Direct2D and DirectWrite improvements, as well as the D3D11 Feature Data D3D9 detection and WIC updates, Microsoft said." See the full article at http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/29515-windows-7-will-get-direct-x-111
birthright said:This is really interesting! I've found this article that mentions what you're saying: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20121114130903_Microsoft_DirectX_11_1_with_Native_Stereo_3D_Output_Is_Exclusive_for_Windows_8.html



Microsoft's original stance was that it would be limited to W8. But I think they knew all along that they would make it available for W7 and only said it to help initial W8 sales.

But anyways

"Windows 8 is to feature the full DirectX 11.1 Runtime package, including Direct3D 11.1, Direct2D, DirectWrite, DXGI 1.2 and a revised version of Windows Imaging Component. For Windows 7, parts of these features will be made available through an update for Windows 7 SP1 and Windows Server 2008 R2 Service Pack 1.

The Service Pack 1 update installs several APIs for DirectX 11.1, but will support just the WDDM 1.1 drivers, and not Windows 8's WDDM 1.2 drivers. Direct3D 11 is also available, including Direct2D and DirectWrite improvements, as well as the D3D11 Feature Data D3D9 detection and WIC updates, Microsoft said."

See the full article at http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/29515-windows-7-will-get-direct-x-111

#26
Posted 03/25/2013 11:17 PM   
As a very recent 3dvision user, I don't know what the 'golden era' of 3dvision was like (if there ever was such a thing), but the current situation actually seems pretty good to me. 3D looks great, and is supported by lots of recent games. The fact that not every single AAA game supports it out of the box is not necessarily the end of the world. Yes, it would be nice if they did, but we don't live in an ideal world. Not every racing game supports my logitech racing wheel either, but that doesn't mean that racing wheels are dying. Actually, I've been nicely surprised to find that far more games support 3Dvision than I was expecting. Of course much of that has to do with Helix. The fragmentation of the 3D world is a definite problem though. First there's the fragmentation between those who have properly tried 3D and love it and those who ignore it or (bizarrely, astoundingly) regard it as a gimmick. The jump from 2D to 3D, which should be a small jump for anyone with a few hundred bucks to spare, oddly seems to be a massive chasm for many. Then there's the fragmentation between AMD/nvidia/DDD/etc. of course. But there's also worrying fragmentation within the nvidia/3Dvision camp. The community doesn't seem huge, yet is already spread out over several blogs and forums, without one real go-to hub for everything. Finding the solution to a problem often involves trawling through the comments section of various old threads or blog posts and hoping for the best. Then there's the hardware fragmentation. Some people game on 3d monitors, some game on projectors, and some on TVs. Half the time I don't know what people are talking about on the forums because the technology they use is so different to the technology I use. Our expectations, experiences, problems and solutions are all different. It's bizarre, for example, that the 3D monitor with arguably the widest industry and community approval (ASUS VG278H) doesn't even work with Tridef without hoop-jumping and workarounds (and even then not for everyone). But my biggest concern is how much of the 3dvision experience hinges on one man. At the moment, the fact that Helix is the main guy making fixes is actually helpful: it means that his blog is a central hub for all fixes that everyone knows about. But what happens if Helix gets bored of doing Nvidia's work for free or (God forbid) gets hit by a bus? Will there be one person who steps in and does all the fixes? Or will there be 5 people who contribute fixes in smaller doses? And where will those 5 people post their fixes? On 5 different blogs? Or just in threads on the nvidia forum that keep getting buried? In my opinion, what we need is something like a 3DVision Nexus. A single, permanent hub that is managed and tidied by the community. Anyone who's ever used mods for Skyrim/Fallout/Oblivion knows how amazing the Nexus is. Mods are easy to install, information is well-organised, it's relatively easy for people to help each other out, and the community is run by passionate people with a clear vision for the future of the scene. Mod authors come and go, but the community remains stable and it's easy for people to come in and take over from past authors' work. The whole thing hits a sort of critical mass where the experience is friendly and worthwhile enough that more and more people are tempted to join in as both users and modders. Though having said all that, if this DX11.1 3D thing really takes off, then that would be simply awesome. As much as I love 3D vision, proprietary solutions like that just hurt the users in the long run. A unified 3D system that all users, devs, and modders have access to would surely mean a rosy future. That and the massive interest in the Occulus Rift suggest that 3D is only going to get better in years to come.
As a very recent 3dvision user, I don't know what the 'golden era' of 3dvision was like (if there ever was such a thing), but the current situation actually seems pretty good to me. 3D looks great, and is supported by lots of recent games. The fact that not every single AAA game supports it out of the box is not necessarily the end of the world. Yes, it would be nice if they did, but we don't live in an ideal world. Not every racing game supports my logitech racing wheel either, but that doesn't mean that racing wheels are dying. Actually, I've been nicely surprised to find that far more games support 3Dvision than I was expecting. Of course much of that has to do with Helix.

The fragmentation of the 3D world is a definite problem though. First there's the fragmentation between those who have properly tried 3D and love it and those who ignore it or (bizarrely, astoundingly) regard it as a gimmick. The jump from 2D to 3D, which should be a small jump for anyone with a few hundred bucks to spare, oddly seems to be a massive chasm for many. Then there's the fragmentation between AMD/nvidia/DDD/etc. of course.

But there's also worrying fragmentation within the nvidia/3Dvision camp. The community doesn't seem huge, yet is already spread out over several blogs and forums, without one real go-to hub for everything. Finding the solution to a problem often involves trawling through the comments section of various old threads or blog posts and hoping for the best.

Then there's the hardware fragmentation. Some people game on 3d monitors, some game on projectors, and some on TVs. Half the time I don't know what people are talking about on the forums because the technology they use is so different to the technology I use. Our expectations, experiences, problems and solutions are all different. It's bizarre, for example, that the 3D monitor with arguably the widest industry and community approval (ASUS VG278H) doesn't even work with Tridef without hoop-jumping and workarounds (and even then not for everyone).

But my biggest concern is how much of the 3dvision experience hinges on one man. At the moment, the fact that Helix is the main guy making fixes is actually helpful: it means that his blog is a central hub for all fixes that everyone knows about.

But what happens if Helix gets bored of doing Nvidia's work for free or (God forbid) gets hit by a bus? Will there be one person who steps in and does all the fixes? Or will there be 5 people who contribute fixes in smaller doses? And where will those 5 people post their fixes? On 5 different blogs? Or just in threads on the nvidia forum that keep getting buried?

In my opinion, what we need is something like a 3DVision Nexus. A single, permanent hub that is managed and tidied by the community. Anyone who's ever used mods for Skyrim/Fallout/Oblivion knows how amazing the Nexus is. Mods are easy to install, information is well-organised, it's relatively easy for people to help each other out, and the community is run by passionate people with a clear vision for the future of the scene. Mod authors come and go, but the community remains stable and it's easy for people to come in and take over from past authors' work. The whole thing hits a sort of critical mass where the experience is friendly and worthwhile enough that more and more people are tempted to join in as both users and modders.



Though having said all that, if this DX11.1 3D thing really takes off, then that would be simply awesome. As much as I love 3D vision, proprietary solutions like that just hurt the users in the long run. A unified 3D system that all users, devs, and modders have access to would surely mean a rosy future. That and the massive interest in the Occulus Rift suggest that 3D is only going to get better in years to come.

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#27
Posted 05/09/2013 04:05 AM   
Great post.
Great post.

#28
Posted 05/09/2013 05:18 AM   
Yeah, I agree with Volnaiskra too, great post. The big problem of 3d on PC is of course price and, like you said, fragmentation. We have 3 solutions, tridef, 3d vision and amdhd3d. 3d users are not that big so this kind of fragmentation on an already small user base kills any hope of dev support for games in most cases. That's why I think Oculus Rift will help 3d a lot, it's platform agnostic so all 3d users can use it no matter their computer setup, the community for it is huge even this early, and lots of devs are showing interest on it.
Yeah, I agree with Volnaiskra too, great post.

The big problem of 3d on PC is of course price and, like you said, fragmentation. We have 3 solutions, tridef, 3d vision and amdhd3d. 3d users are not that big so this kind of fragmentation on an already small user base kills any hope of dev support for games in most cases. That's why I think Oculus Rift will help 3d a lot, it's platform agnostic so all 3d users can use it no matter their computer setup, the community for it is huge even this early, and lots of devs are showing interest on it.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#29
Posted 05/09/2013 06:52 AM   
How does the Oculus work, in terms of it's 3d rendering? Is it a depth buffer thing, or are games that are designed to work with it likely to work fine with 3d vision too?
How does the Oculus work, in terms of it's 3d rendering? Is it a depth buffer thing, or are games that are designed to work with it likely to work fine with 3d vision too?

#30
Posted 05/09/2013 07:14 AM   
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