Another thread about ghosting issue
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Hi. I know, I know. I'm not the first and definitely not the last. I’ve already turned the Internet upside down searching for any answer to my problem and still can’t find any working solution. The problem is that in many games listed as Excellent in 3D Vision compatibility list I have relatively serious ghosting. Not just in the upper part of the screen but also at any other part giving certain image contrast conditions (bright light over dark surface, etc.). A good example would be the attached screenshot from Mass Effect 1 where I see heavy ghosting coming from the lights bars on the floor, or in other words each eye can “partially” (about 40% opacity) see the bars “meant” for the other eye. Currently I’ve got ASUS VG248QE monitor, a standard 3D Vision 2 Kit and GeForce GTX 970 video card. My box is running on Windows 8.1 x64 with the latest by the moment stable nVidia driver (358.50). As far as I understood reading numerous posts regarding the issue, the 3D Vision technology is pretty fragile and can be affected by a number of factors: USB hub latency, monitors, cables, etc. So considering my hardware setup I was wondering what could cause this issue, and I have a couple of related questions. 1. Could the fact that my monitor is connected via DisplayPort cause it (basic manual says DVI, but as far as I know DisplayPort is faster than DVI and is fully supported by 3D Vision)? 2. What USB port version is recommended for IR emitter (2.0 or 3.0)? 3. What other factors could cause the ghosting in my case? 4. Any other recommendations are appreciated. devices: [url=http://s6.postimg.org/69wq8fs29/devices.png]http://s6.postimg.org/69wq8fs29/devices.png[/url] driver: [url=http://s6.postimg.org/7dgukecpd/driver.png]http://s6.postimg.org/7dgukecpd/driver.png[/url] monitor:[url=http://s6.postimg.org/6p801gdzl/monitor.png]http://s6.postimg.org/6p801gdzl/monitor.png[/url] Mass Effect 3d screen: [url=http://ontalsoft.com/downloads/MassEffect02_50.zip]MassEffect02_50.zip[/url] Thanks and best regards
Hi. I know, I know. I'm not the first and definitely not the last.

I’ve already turned the Internet upside down searching for any answer to my problem and still can’t find any working solution.

The problem is that in many games listed as Excellent in 3D Vision compatibility list I have relatively serious ghosting. Not just in the upper part of the screen but also at any other part giving certain image contrast conditions (bright light over dark surface, etc.). A good example would be the attached screenshot from Mass Effect 1 where I see heavy ghosting coming from the lights bars on the floor, or in other words each eye can “partially” (about 40% opacity) see the bars “meant” for the other eye. Currently I’ve got ASUS VG248QE monitor, a standard 3D Vision 2 Kit and GeForce GTX 970 video card. My box is running on Windows 8.1 x64 with the latest by the moment stable nVidia driver (358.50).

As far as I understood reading numerous posts regarding the issue, the 3D Vision technology is pretty fragile and can be affected by a number of factors: USB hub latency, monitors, cables, etc.

So considering my hardware setup I was wondering what could cause this issue, and I have a couple of related questions.

1. Could the fact that my monitor is connected via DisplayPort cause it (basic manual says DVI, but as far as I know DisplayPort is faster than DVI and is fully supported by 3D Vision)?
2. What USB port version is recommended for IR emitter (2.0 or 3.0)?
3. What other factors could cause the ghosting in my case?
4. Any other recommendations are appreciated.

devices: http://s6.postimg.org/69wq8fs29/devices.png
driver: http://s6.postimg.org/7dgukecpd/driver.png
monitor:http://s6.postimg.org/6p801gdzl/monitor.png
Mass Effect 3d screen: MassEffect02_50.zip

Thanks and best regards

#1
Posted 10/30/2015 04:36 AM   
For broken effects, use the community stereoscopic compatibility fixes. http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2013/10/game-list-automatically-updated.html As far as ghosting there is not much you can do other than lower contrast and calibrate colors. Pixel persistence is a known drawback of LCD screens. I would think that Display Port shouldn't make a difference, but I can't speak from experience. If ghosting bothers you too much, you might consider a DLP Projector.
For broken effects, use the community stereoscopic compatibility fixes.

http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2013/10/game-list-automatically-updated.html

As far as ghosting there is not much you can do other than lower contrast and calibrate colors.
Pixel persistence is a known drawback of LCD screens.

I would think that Display Port shouldn't make a difference, but I can't speak from experience.

If ghosting bothers you too much, you might consider a DLP Projector.

#2
Posted 10/30/2015 04:46 AM   
40% opacity sounds far too high - if that's truly how much you are getting it would look like this, and would be quite unplayable: [img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/66830/[/img] On my Alienware laptop I have a small amount of crosstalk, but I'd estimate it's only about 2.5% opacity, which looks like this: [img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/66831/[/img] My DLP projector has no crosstalk, except for one pair of Optoma glasses which is defective so that one lens doesn't block all the light meant for the other eye. I have seen my laptop behave worse than that 2.5% on occasion, but that usually cleared up after a reboot (suggesting that software can play a role here). But if yours is consistently bad that would suggest either either the hardware is just limited ([s]I'm not familiar with Ancor monitors[/s]Edit: Odd, your monitor screenshot doesn't seem to match the one you mentioned you have - could it be an EDID issue?) or possibly defective like those Optoma glasses of mine. I'm not really sure what to suggest though... :(
40% opacity sounds far too high - if that's truly how much you are getting it would look like this, and would be quite unplayable:

Image

On my Alienware laptop I have a small amount of crosstalk, but I'd estimate it's only about 2.5% opacity, which looks like this:

Image

My DLP projector has no crosstalk, except for one pair of Optoma glasses which is defective so that one lens doesn't block all the light meant for the other eye.


I have seen my laptop behave worse than that 2.5% on occasion, but that usually cleared up after a reboot (suggesting that software can play a role here). But if yours is consistently bad that would suggest either either the hardware is just limited (I'm not familiar with Ancor monitorsEdit: Odd, your monitor screenshot doesn't seem to match the one you mentioned you have - could it be an EDID issue?) or possibly defective like those Optoma glasses of mine.

I'm not really sure what to suggest though... :(

2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit

Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D, Intel i7 3740QM, GTX 680m 2GB, 16GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM, Win7 64bit, 1TB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750GB HDD

Pre-release 3D fixes, shadertool.py and other goodies: http://github.com/DarkStarSword/3d-fixes
Support me on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/DarkStarSword or PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/DarkStarSword

#3
Posted 10/30/2015 05:46 AM   
Yeah no ghosting in your image there, so it's not coming from the game or bugs in the fix or anything. I have that same monitor (although mine has new guts because of the DIY g-sync kit), and the ghosting is not that bad. Terrible from my preferred perspective of DLP projector, but it's certainly playable. Closer to the 2.5% that DarkStarSword shows in his 2nd pic. Your 40% opacity definitely suggests that something is not working correctly. Play around with the glasses to see if this is a sweet spot issue. If your eyes are different from the 65mm IPD, you can be outside the dark spot on the NVidia glasses, and have a worse experience. DisplayPort is fine, that's what I use. You could try DVI as an experiment to gather info, but I'd expect no difference. USB 2.0 is better than 3.0. There are sometimes stupid/bad software jacking around with 3.0 ports, which could change the timing. 3.0 is also slightly unreliable about finding the emitter, so if you can, I'd definitely try a 2.0 port. With no hub between motherboard and emitter. The timing is critical for the sync, so look for any settings that might stall the glasses or monitor. Be sure to have vSync enabled. It wouldn't hurt to try an older driver, since your 970 supports them. I'd go back to 350.12 as an experiment. Newer drivers have been having a lot of weird bugs, including that left eye smearing problem.
Yeah no ghosting in your image there, so it's not coming from the game or bugs in the fix or anything.

I have that same monitor (although mine has new guts because of the DIY g-sync kit), and the ghosting is not that bad. Terrible from my preferred perspective of DLP projector, but it's certainly playable. Closer to the 2.5% that DarkStarSword shows in his 2nd pic.

Your 40% opacity definitely suggests that something is not working correctly.

Play around with the glasses to see if this is a sweet spot issue. If your eyes are different from the 65mm IPD, you can be outside the dark spot on the NVidia glasses, and have a worse experience.

DisplayPort is fine, that's what I use. You could try DVI as an experiment to gather info, but I'd expect no difference.

USB 2.0 is better than 3.0. There are sometimes stupid/bad software jacking around with 3.0 ports, which could change the timing. 3.0 is also slightly unreliable about finding the emitter, so if you can, I'd definitely try a 2.0 port. With no hub between motherboard and emitter.

The timing is critical for the sync, so look for any settings that might stall the glasses or monitor.

Be sure to have vSync enabled.

It wouldn't hurt to try an older driver, since your 970 supports them. I'd go back to 350.12 as an experiment. Newer drivers have been having a lot of weird bugs, including that left eye smearing problem.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#4
Posted 10/30/2015 06:57 AM   
Thanks for your responses, guys. [b][color="orange"]D-Man11[/color][/b], I'm already using the fix from Helixmod. Tried TriDef also and didn't like it (same ghosting but with more bugs and other issues). Don't know why people say it's better than nVidia profiles; more flexible - yes, but I have yet to find any which would win over the default ones. [b][color="orange"]DarkStarSword[/color][/b], as for the ghost opacity in Mass Effect example, maybe I've exaggerated a bit, but it's surely more than 2.5% for me. After some tests I'd say it's about 10-15%, which bothers the eye enough to consider switching 3D off. The monitor appears correctly according to nVidia Control Panel specs which first shows the actual screen fabricator's name and only then the company that assembles the monitor. And since the text is long only the fabricator's name can be seen there. nVidia has this case with ASUS monitors covered in their Knowledge Base. [b][color="orange"]bo3b[/color][/b], same issue happened with older drivers. I've been using 3D Vision for about 6 months by now, maybe not with Mass Effect, but I haven't noticed any visual changes in ghosting. The image is a 3D screenshot and doesn't show the ghost image (actually I don't how people take those pictures). I posted it just for testing to help explain the issue. Anyways, thanks for the help.
Thanks for your responses, guys.

D-Man11, I'm already using the fix from Helixmod. Tried TriDef also and didn't like it (same ghosting but with more bugs and other issues). Don't know why people say it's better than nVidia profiles; more flexible - yes, but I have yet to find any which would win over the default ones.

DarkStarSword, as for the ghost opacity in Mass Effect example, maybe I've exaggerated a bit, but it's surely more than 2.5% for me. After some tests I'd say it's about 10-15%, which bothers the eye enough to consider switching 3D off. The monitor appears correctly according to nVidia Control Panel specs which first shows the actual screen fabricator's name and only then the company that assembles the monitor. And since the text is long only the fabricator's name can be seen there. nVidia has this case with ASUS monitors covered in their Knowledge Base.

bo3b, same issue happened with older drivers. I've been using 3D Vision for about 6 months by now, maybe not with Mass Effect, but I haven't noticed any visual changes in ghosting. The image is a 3D screenshot and doesn't show the ghost image (actually I don't how people take those pictures). I posted it just for testing to help explain the issue.

Anyways, thanks for the help.

#5
Posted 10/30/2015 08:35 AM   
Be sure to let your monitor warm up for at least 30 minutes. Before that, ghosting is much worse. For screen shots, you take them with Alt-F1. Stored in NVStereoscopic3D.IMG folder. But for this purpose, you'd actually want to take a picture through your glasses using a regular camera. Cell phone cameras are OK, but tend to suffer from hand-shake.
Be sure to let your monitor warm up for at least 30 minutes. Before that, ghosting is much worse.


For screen shots, you take them with Alt-F1. Stored in NVStereoscopic3D.IMG folder. But for this purpose, you'd actually want to take a picture through your glasses using a regular camera. Cell phone cameras are OK, but tend to suffer from hand-shake.

Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers

#6
Posted 10/30/2015 10:20 AM   
Lower your monitor brightness a little, that should help.
Lower your monitor brightness a little, that should help.

#7
Posted 10/30/2015 12:11 PM   
I recently identified the source of an intermittent ghosting problem with my passive 4K TV setup - my HDMI cable. I discovered that my original "high speed 4K 3D" HDMI cable was not fully 4K compliant (18 Gpbs bandwidth), so I replaced this cable with a 4K pro version with full bandwidth support, and my intermittent ghosting disappeared... With respect to 3D viewing, the only true ghostless 3D viewing approach is retinal projection (at least one company is currently working on this), followed by the emerging generation of VR headsets like those from Oculus, Sony, and HTC - with their independent screen views for left and right eyes (a little more restricted FOV than retinal projection, however). Projection and passive TV ghosting generally arises from the optical transfer response (including light extinction) of the polarized viewing glasses - unfortunately, these glasses do allow some ghosting. With identical shader fixes, both 3D Vision and TriDef Ignition can provide equally good, ghostless S3D source data (with appropriate convergence or Near Plane/Far Plane settings, for example). Ghosting is introduced in the display subsystem, including cabling, rather than the rendering engine. By the way, I hope the TriDef investigation into 3Dmigoto enables some type of API - and some type of 3D game fix coordination within the broader (but small) 3D gaming community. With the large number games released, and their changing game engines, it is a shame to see something like Ignition's duplicate Dragon Age Inquisition fix, when other AAA titles like The Phantom Pain lack good 3D profiles.
I recently identified the source of an intermittent ghosting problem with my passive 4K TV setup - my HDMI cable. I discovered that my original "high speed 4K 3D" HDMI cable was not fully 4K compliant (18 Gpbs bandwidth), so I replaced this cable with a 4K pro version with full bandwidth support, and my intermittent ghosting disappeared...

With respect to 3D viewing, the only true ghostless 3D viewing approach is retinal projection (at least one company is currently working on this), followed by the emerging generation of VR headsets like those from Oculus, Sony, and HTC - with their independent screen views for left and right eyes (a little more restricted FOV than retinal projection, however). Projection and passive TV ghosting generally arises from the optical transfer response (including light extinction) of the polarized viewing glasses - unfortunately, these glasses do allow some ghosting.

With identical shader fixes, both 3D Vision and TriDef Ignition can provide equally good, ghostless S3D source data (with appropriate convergence or Near Plane/Far Plane settings, for example). Ghosting is introduced in the display subsystem, including cabling, rather than the rendering engine.

By the way, I hope the TriDef investigation into 3Dmigoto enables some type of API - and some type of 3D game fix coordination within the broader (but small) 3D gaming community. With the large number games released, and their changing game engines, it is a shame to see something like Ignition's duplicate Dragon Age Inquisition fix, when other AAA titles like The Phantom Pain lack good 3D profiles.

#8
Posted 10/30/2015 02:11 PM   
[quote="whyme466"] .... With the large number games released, and their changing game engines, it is a shame to see something like Ignition's duplicate Dragon Age Inquisition fix, when other AAA titles like The Phantom Pain lack good 3D profiles.[/quote] Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)
whyme466 said:
....
With the large number games released, and their changing game engines, it is a shame to see something like Ignition's duplicate Dragon Age Inquisition fix, when other AAA titles like The Phantom Pain lack good 3D profiles.


Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#9
Posted 10/30/2015 03:48 PM   
[quote="helifax"] Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)[/quote]Yes, they recently created a fix for Dragon Age Inquisition, months after the helixmod blogspot release. It has the same artifact in the Trespasser DLC that the helixmod profile has, by the way.
helifax said:

Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)
Yes, they recently created a fix for Dragon Age Inquisition, months after the helixmod blogspot release. It has the same artifact in the Trespasser DLC that the helixmod profile has, by the way.

#10
Posted 10/30/2015 05:47 PM   
[b][color="orange"]Pirateguybrush[/color][/b], Lower contrast and gamma helps of course, but that's not a real solution. [b][color="orange"]whyme466[/color][/b], Effectively when I was buying the monitor I specifically checked for digital interfaces compatibility with 3D Vision and saw a lot of comments that HDMI is not the best choice. Dual-link DVI and DisplayPort are the most compatible interfaces for 3d, as per nVidia's support.
Pirateguybrush, Lower contrast and gamma helps of course, but that's not a real solution.

whyme466, Effectively when I was buying the monitor I specifically checked for digital interfaces compatibility with 3D Vision and saw a lot of comments that HDMI is not the best choice. Dual-link DVI and DisplayPort are the most compatible interfaces for 3d, as per nVidia's support.

#11
Posted 10/31/2015 03:58 AM   
With HDMI 2.0 and the LG 4K EDID mod (see another 3D Vision thread), HDMI can provide excellent compatibility with 3D Vision via Optimized for NVIDIA GeForce mode, rather than 3DTV Play. The EDID mod enables 3840x1080 pixel display in each eye at 60 fps, the highest resolution currently supported in any (low-ghosting) single 3D display. Prior HDMI comments probably compared DVI-D and DP with HDMI 1.4a, rather than HDMI 2.0.
With HDMI 2.0 and the LG 4K EDID mod (see another 3D Vision thread), HDMI can provide excellent compatibility with 3D Vision via Optimized for NVIDIA GeForce mode, rather than 3DTV Play. The EDID mod enables 3840x1080 pixel display in each eye at 60 fps, the highest resolution currently supported in any (low-ghosting) single 3D display. Prior HDMI comments probably compared DVI-D and DP with HDMI 1.4a, rather than HDMI 2.0.

#12
Posted 10/31/2015 04:40 AM   
[quote="whyme466"][quote="helifax"] Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)[/quote]Yes, they recently created a fix for Dragon Age Inquisition, months after the helixmod blogspot release. It has the same artifact in the Trespasser DLC that the helixmod profile has, by the way.[/quote] Interesting!!! I bet there is a MAJOR COPY PASTE THERE!!!;) Sure looks like that. Very awesome that companies WHO WORK FOR MONEY take stuff from our FREE community to put it in their PAID product;) I bet they forgot to give CREDIT to the creators of the 3D Fix.. Now this alone might be a good case of suing them;)) (Not that we will, but still). I have seen it before. If it's free it doesn't mean YOU CAN TAKE CREDIT for IT! You must always give credit to those who made it! I bet this is not the case here... or is it?
whyme466 said:
helifax said:

Wait, did Tridef duplicated the Dragon Age: Inquisition fix? Or am I miss-understanding you;)
Yes, they recently created a fix for Dragon Age Inquisition, months after the helixmod blogspot release. It has the same artifact in the Trespasser DLC that the helixmod profile has, by the way.


Interesting!!! I bet there is a MAJOR COPY PASTE THERE!!!;) Sure looks like that.
Very awesome that companies WHO WORK FOR MONEY take stuff from our FREE community to put it in their PAID product;)

I bet they forgot to give CREDIT to the creators of the 3D Fix.. Now this alone might be a good case of suing them;)) (Not that we will, but still).
I have seen it before. If it's free it doesn't mean YOU CAN TAKE CREDIT for IT! You must always give credit to those who made it!

I bet this is not the case here... or is it?

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#13
Posted 10/31/2015 11:13 AM   
I wish Nvidia would copy the fixes into their drivers and copy fixing them themselves! :D
I wish Nvidia would copy the fixes into their drivers and copy fixing them themselves! :D

#14
Posted 10/31/2015 01:14 PM   
My monitor is Asus and NCP says Ancor. I do see ghosting on that picture, but with white bars on black surrounding there is no way to get zero crosstalk
My monitor is Asus and NCP says Ancor.
I do see ghosting on that picture, but with white bars on black surrounding there is no way to get zero crosstalk
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Ryzen 1700X 3.9GHz | Asrock X370 Taichi | 16GB G.Skill
GTX 1080 Ti SLI | 850W EVGA P2 | Win7x64
Asus VG278HR | Panasonic TX-58EX750B 4K Active 3D

#15
Posted 10/31/2015 01:24 PM   
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