Rage - 3D Vision Support or Not? Question for Andrew
3 / 6
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
Not buying OpenGL games until 3dvison support it too.... No ofense too, but i can't and i tried to play games on 2d and i can't... i powered on my xbox 360 for last time 11 months ago... Will wait for a fix/hook.
EDIT : And i know OpenGL is superior to Most DirectX 11 games... but not stereoscopic lack of interest for me....
Not buying OpenGL games until 3dvison support it too.... No ofense too, but i can't and i tried to play games on 2d and i can't... i powered on my xbox 360 for last time 11 months ago... Will wait for a fix/hook.
EDIT : And i know OpenGL is superior to Most DirectX 11 games... but not stereoscopic lack of interest for me....
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1317740724' post='1303128']
chiz,
Ya know, after I sat back and thought a little more on this. I tend to agree with you. And I am wrong about GliDOS, I went back and looked but it has two kinds of wrappers: dgvoodoo (directx) and Openglide (opengl). It's only with dgVoodoo that 3D can be used with GliDOS, so that pokes a hole in my argument.
Having said that, I still think its still the case that Rage would have to be coded with quad-buffered in mind to take advantage of the Quadro [uniquely] & 3D Vision.
I guess we'll wait and see if there is a tertium quid here.
[/quote]
Ah yeah that makes sense. That's another good example I guess with the GLdirect workarounds people have had limited success with tricking NVAPI to auto-stereoize and kick on the 3D Vision hardware for older OpenGL titles. Unfortunately I believe GLdirect is pretty limited in which OpenGL versions are supported. Nothing newer than SW:KOTR works I believe. Using a D3D to OpenGL wrapper is certainly one approach that would work, but the work should really be done by either Nvidia or iD rather than a member of the end-user community to get 3D Vision working with OpenGL titles.
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
I guess we really need someone with a Quadro to verify for us what 3D Vision capabilities those cards have for the various OpenGL titles out there. It'd be a start to see what happens with Rage. If the emitter/3D kit come on then we know Quadro drivers have the OpenGL flag for hardware. If we see one eye that's black then that probably means it doesn't auto-stereoize for OpenGL and does need native quad buffer support. If it plays in perfect S3D then we can probably guess it handles all 3 fine while GeForce products do not.
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1317741072' post='1303132']
I'm using 285.35 (the BF3 drivers), and I didn't experience this AT ALL. We're given no specs of the system being used. Is this a 7900 GTX running this game? GREAT card btw for old gaming, but I can't take this seriously. id's goal was to get 60 fps with no matter the setup (within the minimume hardware requirements), so if he's running minimum or close to it, what would he expect?
I found Rage to be one of the most gorgeous games I've seen in a while on a PC, even with the Crysis 2-launch lack of gpu options.
[/quote]
Thanks for the confirm on that. I figured it was probably run on some underpowered hardware, probably a laptop to generate buzz and page hits. I guess it worked to some degree. So many things can cause that kind of texture pop-in...my guess is everything in that system is underpowered from storage subsystem, system RAM, VRAM and GPU.
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1317740724' post='1303128']
chiz,
Ya know, after I sat back and thought a little more on this. I tend to agree with you. And I am wrong about GliDOS, I went back and looked but it has two kinds of wrappers: dgvoodoo (directx) and Openglide (opengl). It's only with dgVoodoo that 3D can be used with GliDOS, so that pokes a hole in my argument.
Having said that, I still think its still the case that Rage would have to be coded with quad-buffered in mind to take advantage of the Quadro [uniquely] & 3D Vision.
I guess we'll wait and see if there is a tertium quid here.
Ah yeah that makes sense. That's another good example I guess with the GLdirect workarounds people have had limited success with tricking NVAPI to auto-stereoize and kick on the 3D Vision hardware for older OpenGL titles. Unfortunately I believe GLdirect is pretty limited in which OpenGL versions are supported. Nothing newer than SW:KOTR works I believe. Using a D3D to OpenGL wrapper is certainly one approach that would work, but the work should really be done by either Nvidia or iD rather than a member of the end-user community to get 3D Vision working with OpenGL titles.
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
I guess we really need someone with a Quadro to verify for us what 3D Vision capabilities those cards have for the various OpenGL titles out there. It'd be a start to see what happens with Rage. If the emitter/3D kit come on then we know Quadro drivers have the OpenGL flag for hardware. If we see one eye that's black then that probably means it doesn't auto-stereoize for OpenGL and does need native quad buffer support. If it plays in perfect S3D then we can probably guess it handles all 3 fine while GeForce products do not.
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1317741072' post='1303132']
I'm using 285.35 (the BF3 drivers), and I didn't experience this AT ALL. We're given no specs of the system being used. Is this a 7900 GTX running this game? GREAT card btw for old gaming, but I can't take this seriously. id's goal was to get 60 fps with no matter the setup (within the minimume hardware requirements), so if he's running minimum or close to it, what would he expect?
I found Rage to be one of the most gorgeous games I've seen in a while on a PC, even with the Crysis 2-launch lack of gpu options.
Thanks for the confirm on that. I figured it was probably run on some underpowered hardware, probably a laptop to generate buzz and page hits. I guess it worked to some degree. So many things can cause that kind of texture pop-in...my guess is everything in that system is underpowered from storage subsystem, system RAM, VRAM and GPU.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='04 October 2011 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1317748013' post='1303186']
Hi All
Let me end this thread right now.
Currently there is no 3D Vision support for Rage. Our driver automatically converts DirectX games into 3D. Rage is OpenGL.
We are investigating with the Rage developers if its possible to add support for 3D in a patch, but I want to caution everyone there there is no confirmation or no news that a patch is coming with 3D support.
[/quote]
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='04 October 2011 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1317748013' post='1303186']
Hi All
Let me end this thread right now.
Currently there is no 3D Vision support for Rage. Our driver automatically converts DirectX games into 3D. Rage is OpenGL.
We are investigating with the Rage developers if its possible to add support for 3D in a patch, but I want to caution everyone there there is no confirmation or no news that a patch is coming with 3D support.
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
[quote name='Drayth' date='04 October 2011 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1317760222' post='1303287']
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
[/quote]
In this case though it isn't about not committing to an answer. Nvidia has known the answer for months...years. 3D Vision does not support OpenGL games. Many have complained about it since 3D Vision launched in 2008 but its been easy to ignore because OpenGL as the shipping runtime has been so irrelevant the last 4-5 years. Its all DirectX....probably along the lines of 99% DirectX 9/10/11 and <1% for OpenGL. I can honestly count the number of OpenGL games I've been interested that were released in the last 5 years on a single hand...and only bought 1 (Riddick: Athena).
The reason we don't have a definitive answer is because the answer is beyond the authority that Andrew, or anyone else that directly communicates with us here, has. Andrew is the 3D Vision PM and certainly does have a lot of say and influence, but messing with Quadro profitability and confirming to us that's why there's no 3D Vision support for OpenGL probably isn't something he's authorized to do.
The only way this situation is going to change is if more and more games start shipping with OpenGL runtimes.....and the only way that is going to happen is if iD Tech 5 catches on as the "must-have" engine for this generation of hardware similar to how iD Tech 3 was for DX8. Not sure if that's going to happen with the likes of CryEngine 3, UE3/4, etc out there for licensing as well. Unfortunately, Rage will probably be on a sequel and long forgotten as a current game before 3D Vision supports OpenGL....I hope I'm wrong but all those guys holding onto their 7900GTX to play OpenGL games probably agree with me.....
[quote name='Drayth' date='04 October 2011 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1317760222' post='1303287']
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
In this case though it isn't about not committing to an answer. Nvidia has known the answer for months...years. 3D Vision does not support OpenGL games. Many have complained about it since 3D Vision launched in 2008 but its been easy to ignore because OpenGL as the shipping runtime has been so irrelevant the last 4-5 years. Its all DirectX....probably along the lines of 99% DirectX 9/10/11 and <1% for OpenGL. I can honestly count the number of OpenGL games I've been interested that were released in the last 5 years on a single hand...and only bought 1 (Riddick: Athena).
The reason we don't have a definitive answer is because the answer is beyond the authority that Andrew, or anyone else that directly communicates with us here, has. Andrew is the 3D Vision PM and certainly does have a lot of say and influence, but messing with Quadro profitability and confirming to us that's why there's no 3D Vision support for OpenGL probably isn't something he's authorized to do.
The only way this situation is going to change is if more and more games start shipping with OpenGL runtimes.....and the only way that is going to happen is if iD Tech 5 catches on as the "must-have" engine for this generation of hardware similar to how iD Tech 3 was for DX8. Not sure if that's going to happen with the likes of CryEngine 3, UE3/4, etc out there for licensing as well. Unfortunately, Rage will probably be on a sequel and long forgotten as a current game before 3D Vision supports OpenGL....I hope I'm wrong but all those guys holding onto their 7900GTX to play OpenGL games probably agree with me.....
Yeah i'd give up on this game being in 3D if i were you. OpenGL 3Dvision, i just dont see it actually happening soon, if ever. I've wanted to play doom3 and KotOR in 3D for years now... I hope i'm wrong and the demand for a more popular and recent opengl game actually makes some things happen, but i'll remain a skeptic.
And pass on this game for me as well, at least for now. Not because i plan on holding out until theres 3D support, just until i run out of better things to play (in 3D). Between 3D games on PC and stuff comin out on 3DS, going back to 2D gaming is just weird on my eyes almost lol.
Yeah i'd give up on this game being in 3D if i were you. OpenGL 3Dvision, i just dont see it actually happening soon, if ever. I've wanted to play doom3 and KotOR in 3D for years now... I hope i'm wrong and the demand for a more popular and recent opengl game actually makes some things happen, but i'll remain a skeptic.
And pass on this game for me as well, at least for now. Not because i plan on holding out until theres 3D support, just until i run out of better things to play (in 3D). Between 3D games on PC and stuff comin out on 3DS, going back to 2D gaming is just weird on my eyes almost lol.
[quote name='chiz' date='04 October 2011 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1317776200' post='1303417']
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
[/quote]
According to a quick google search, id Tech 5 won't be licensed outside of ZeniMax/Bethesda games.
[quote name='chiz' date='04 October 2011 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1317776200' post='1303417']
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
According to a quick google search, id Tech 5 won't be licensed outside of ZeniMax/Bethesda games.
[quote name='chiz' date='04 October 2011 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1317775982' post='1303414']
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.[/quote]
chiz,
As you know, I am one of those old stereo OpenGL gamers on this forum, as I have a 7900 GTX SLI/Windows XP system for such gaming and well versed with the old Stereo driver and what it does and the games it can render in 3D stereo.
My argument regarding a Quadro, presupposed an 'as is' software configuration as we know it today with the drivers. As far as I know and have read, and have conversed with in private conversations with Nvidia folks, is that the OpenGL game would have to be coded with quad buffering to trigger 3D Vision for OpenGL (e.g. Quake III, which can also be tapped by the old Nvidia stereo driver and GLDirect for 3D Vision, but it is coded with opengl stereo if one uses the r_stereo flag in console). Could this be over-stated or possibly excepted? I'm all ears for someone to offer some empirical proof.
Now, your suggestion is far more interesting, and would require that Nvidia add back in those OpenGL calls (or activate them) in the software for Geforce and by dint of that, Quadro too if quad-buffering isn't there in the application.
I would be a huge proponent and promoter of this. It would take some kind of paradigm shift though for Nvidia to move out on it, like tons of Game Dev's opting for idtech 5 like many did for Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3. Something like that would change their mind.
FYI-regarding GLIDOS, it's not accessible for 3D Vision users. It's hard coded for Zalman, Anaglyph, and Checkerboard. For me to use it, I have to use my DLP-Link glasses.
BTW-I'm a huge id fan. I live in Dallas. Grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D, Commander Kein, Doom series, Quake series, and so on.
[quote name='chiz' date='04 October 2011 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1317775982' post='1303414']
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
chiz,
As you know, I am one of those old stereo OpenGL gamers on this forum, as I have a 7900 GTX SLI/Windows XP system for such gaming and well versed with the old Stereo driver and what it does and the games it can render in 3D stereo.
My argument regarding a Quadro, presupposed an 'as is' software configuration as we know it today with the drivers. As far as I know and have read, and have conversed with in private conversations with Nvidia folks, is that the OpenGL game would have to be coded with quad buffering to trigger 3D Vision for OpenGL (e.g. Quake III, which can also be tapped by the old Nvidia stereo driver and GLDirect for 3D Vision, but it is coded with opengl stereo if one uses the r_stereo flag in console). Could this be over-stated or possibly excepted? I'm all ears for someone to offer some empirical proof.
Now, your suggestion is far more interesting, and would require that Nvidia add back in those OpenGL calls (or activate them) in the software for Geforce and by dint of that, Quadro too if quad-buffering isn't there in the application.
I would be a huge proponent and promoter of this. It would take some kind of paradigm shift though for Nvidia to move out on it, like tons of Game Dev's opting for idtech 5 like many did for Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3. Something like that would change their mind.
FYI-regarding GLIDOS, it's not accessible for 3D Vision users. It's hard coded for Zalman, Anaglyph, and Checkerboard. For me to use it, I have to use my DLP-Link glasses.
BTW-I'm a huge id fan. I live in Dallas. Grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D, Commander Kein, Doom series, Quake series, and so on.
I vote with my wallet, no 3d?, no thanks. Besides it's not looking like it's the best game ever or something, although I hope it gets 3d support at some point, if 3d vision has taught me something is patience /blarg.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':/' />
I vote with my wallet, no 3d?, no thanks. Besides it's not looking like it's the best game ever or something, although I hope it gets 3d support at some point, if 3d vision has taught me something is patience /blarg.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':/' />
All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com
the problem is not if this game is compatible 3D Vision or not
The problem is this game is designed FOR CONSOLES. And IS NOT pc compatible, that's all. Whatever your PC is, the game will look like **** with these dirty textures pop-up.
Of course, the game has NO stereo mode, so no 3D Vision, be sure of that.
By the way, I just come to buy the game. Just played 5 minutes and meh, will stay frozen until a good good good patch from steam or Nvidia. I won't even install the bundled pack, just unuseful presently.
the problem is not if this game is compatible 3D Vision or not
The problem is this game is designed FOR CONSOLES. And IS NOT pc compatible, that's all. Whatever your PC is, the game will look like **** with these dirty textures pop-up.
Of course, the game has NO stereo mode, so no 3D Vision, be sure of that.
By the way, I just come to buy the game. Just played 5 minutes and meh, will stay frozen until a good good good patch from steam or Nvidia. I won't even install the bundled pack, just unuseful presently.
Setorius,
There's already a "solution." It's called download the latest [beta] drivers 285.38.
I have no idea what you're talking about, this game looks great. Outstanding actually. And I have high standards, I run dual GTX 590's Quad SLI, that can handle anything in existence now and for the next 4 years. Rage looks as good as any game I've seen, almost on par with Crysis 2 (DX11 and Hi-texture pack) and Battlefield 3 beta. There's no empirical evidence that this game was designed *for consoles*, in fact the opposite has been stated to be the case by id. I could careless if I have to dig through more video options or not, if a game can already tweak itself to take advantage of my hardware on the fly, more so does it save me the trouble of having to slog through it myself, and I'm very old school. Again, it depends on the way the game is coded.
What hardware are you running on?
Arioch,
I haven't seen luke warm reviews from PC *critics.* The critical reviews I've read have been 80 or so and up. Some in the 90's with an overal critic score of 85. That's quality. If 3D is your measure, then that's a principled reason to pass then I guess.
This is what metacritic says: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/rage
That's what the critics say, and as far as the "user" reviews are concerned, on the PC, I can't take them seriously considering I don't know what setup they are running it on and their level of competency. Critics on the other hand, know better usually. Though they are hardly omni-competent, they no better to throw a review out there stating "this game has massive graphics problems and texture pop-out," when a solution, on the day of realse, exists.
There's already a "solution." It's called download the latest [beta] drivers 285.38.
I have no idea what you're talking about, this game looks great. Outstanding actually. And I have high standards, I run dual GTX 590's Quad SLI, that can handle anything in existence now and for the next 4 years. Rage looks as good as any game I've seen, almost on par with Crysis 2 (DX11 and Hi-texture pack) and Battlefield 3 beta. There's no empirical evidence that this game was designed *for consoles*, in fact the opposite has been stated to be the case by id. I could careless if I have to dig through more video options or not, if a game can already tweak itself to take advantage of my hardware on the fly, more so does it save me the trouble of having to slog through it myself, and I'm very old school. Again, it depends on the way the game is coded.
What hardware are you running on?
Arioch,
I haven't seen luke warm reviews from PC *critics.* The critical reviews I've read have been 80 or so and up. Some in the 90's with an overal critic score of 85. That's quality. If 3D is your measure, then that's a principled reason to pass then I guess.
This is what metacritic says: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/rage
That's what the critics say, and as far as the "user" reviews are concerned, on the PC, I can't take them seriously considering I don't know what setup they are running it on and their level of competency. Critics on the other hand, know better usually. Though they are hardly omni-competent, they no better to throw a review out there stating "this game has massive graphics problems and texture pop-out," when a solution, on the day of realse, exists.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
EDIT : And i know OpenGL is superior to Most DirectX 11 games... but not stereoscopic lack of interest for me....
EDIT : And i know OpenGL is superior to Most DirectX 11 games... but not stereoscopic lack of interest for me....
My 3D Vision Gallery
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2x EVGA Titan Z
Silverstone Evo 1200w
chiz,
Ya know, after I sat back and thought a little more on this. I tend to agree with you. And I am wrong about GliDOS, I went back and looked but it has two kinds of wrappers: dgvoodoo (directx) and Openglide (opengl). It's only with dgVoodoo that 3D can be used with GliDOS, so that pokes a hole in my argument.
Having said that, I still think its still the case that Rage would have to be coded with quad-buffered in mind to take advantage of the Quadro [uniquely] & 3D Vision.
I guess we'll wait and see if there is a tertium quid here.
[/quote]
Ah yeah that makes sense. That's another good example I guess with the GLdirect workarounds people have had limited success with tricking NVAPI to auto-stereoize and kick on the 3D Vision hardware for older OpenGL titles. Unfortunately I believe GLdirect is pretty limited in which OpenGL versions are supported. Nothing newer than SW:KOTR works I believe. Using a D3D to OpenGL wrapper is certainly one approach that would work, but the work should really be done by either Nvidia or iD rather than a member of the end-user community to get 3D Vision working with OpenGL titles.
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
I guess we really need someone with a Quadro to verify for us what 3D Vision capabilities those cards have for the various OpenGL titles out there. It'd be a start to see what happens with Rage. If the emitter/3D kit come on then we know Quadro drivers have the OpenGL flag for hardware. If we see one eye that's black then that probably means it doesn't auto-stereoize for OpenGL and does need native quad buffer support. If it plays in perfect S3D then we can probably guess it handles all 3 fine while GeForce products do not.
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1317741072' post='1303132']
I'm using 285.35 (the BF3 drivers), and I didn't experience this AT ALL. We're given no specs of the system being used. Is this a 7900 GTX running this game? GREAT card btw for old gaming, but I can't take this seriously. id's goal was to get 60 fps with no matter the setup (within the minimume hardware requirements), so if he's running minimum or close to it, what would he expect?
I found Rage to be one of the most gorgeous games I've seen in a while on a PC, even with the Crysis 2-launch lack of gpu options.
[/quote]
Thanks for the confirm on that. I figured it was probably run on some underpowered hardware, probably a laptop to generate buzz and page hits. I guess it worked to some degree. So many things can cause that kind of texture pop-in...my guess is everything in that system is underpowered from storage subsystem, system RAM, VRAM and GPU.
chiz,
Ya know, after I sat back and thought a little more on this. I tend to agree with you. And I am wrong about GliDOS, I went back and looked but it has two kinds of wrappers: dgvoodoo (directx) and Openglide (opengl). It's only with dgVoodoo that 3D can be used with GliDOS, so that pokes a hole in my argument.
Having said that, I still think its still the case that Rage would have to be coded with quad-buffered in mind to take advantage of the Quadro [uniquely] & 3D Vision.
I guess we'll wait and see if there is a tertium quid here.
Ah yeah that makes sense. That's another good example I guess with the GLdirect workarounds people have had limited success with tricking NVAPI to auto-stereoize and kick on the 3D Vision hardware for older OpenGL titles. Unfortunately I believe GLdirect is pretty limited in which OpenGL versions are supported. Nothing newer than SW:KOTR works I believe. Using a D3D to OpenGL wrapper is certainly one approach that would work, but the work should really be done by either Nvidia or iD rather than a member of the end-user community to get 3D Vision working with OpenGL titles.
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
I guess we really need someone with a Quadro to verify for us what 3D Vision capabilities those cards have for the various OpenGL titles out there. It'd be a start to see what happens with Rage. If the emitter/3D kit come on then we know Quadro drivers have the OpenGL flag for hardware. If we see one eye that's black then that probably means it doesn't auto-stereoize for OpenGL and does need native quad buffer support. If it plays in perfect S3D then we can probably guess it handles all 3 fine while GeForce products do not.
[quote name='photios' date='04 October 2011 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1317741072' post='1303132']
I'm using 285.35 (the BF3 drivers), and I didn't experience this AT ALL. We're given no specs of the system being used. Is this a 7900 GTX running this game? GREAT card btw for old gaming, but I can't take this seriously. id's goal was to get 60 fps with no matter the setup (within the minimume hardware requirements), so if he's running minimum or close to it, what would he expect?
I found Rage to be one of the most gorgeous games I've seen in a while on a PC, even with the Crysis 2-launch lack of gpu options.
Thanks for the confirm on that. I figured it was probably run on some underpowered hardware, probably a laptop to generate buzz and page hits. I guess it worked to some degree. So many things can cause that kind of texture pop-in...my guess is everything in that system is underpowered from storage subsystem, system RAM, VRAM and GPU.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
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Hi All
Let me end this thread right now.
Currently there is no 3D Vision support for Rage. Our driver automatically converts DirectX games into 3D. Rage is OpenGL.
We are investigating with the Rage developers if its possible to add support for 3D in a patch, but I want to caution everyone there there is no confirmation or no news that a patch is coming with 3D support.
[/quote]
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
Hi All
Let me end this thread right now.
Currently there is no 3D Vision support for Rage. Our driver automatically converts DirectX games into 3D. Rage is OpenGL.
We are investigating with the Rage developers if its possible to add support for 3D in a patch, but I want to caution everyone there there is no confirmation or no news that a patch is coming with 3D support.
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
[/quote]
In this case though it isn't about not committing to an answer. Nvidia has known the answer for months...years. 3D Vision does not support OpenGL games. Many have complained about it since 3D Vision launched in 2008 but its been easy to ignore because OpenGL as the shipping runtime has been so irrelevant the last 4-5 years. Its all DirectX....probably along the lines of 99% DirectX 9/10/11 and <1% for OpenGL. I can honestly count the number of OpenGL games I've been interested that were released in the last 5 years on a single hand...and only bought 1 (Riddick: Athena).
The reason we don't have a definitive answer is because the answer is beyond the authority that Andrew, or anyone else that directly communicates with us here, has. Andrew is the 3D Vision PM and certainly does have a lot of say and influence, but messing with Quadro profitability and confirming to us that's why there's no 3D Vision support for OpenGL probably isn't something he's authorized to do.
The only way this situation is going to change is if more and more games start shipping with OpenGL runtimes.....and the only way that is going to happen is if iD Tech 5 catches on as the "must-have" engine for this generation of hardware similar to how iD Tech 3 was for DX8. Not sure if that's going to happen with the likes of CryEngine 3, UE3/4, etc out there for licensing as well. Unfortunately, Rage will probably be on a sequel and long forgotten as a current game before 3D Vision supports OpenGL....I hope I'm wrong but all those guys holding onto their 7900GTX to play OpenGL games probably agree with me.....
A bussiness isn't going to say anything unless they feel they're 100% commited to the answer. The game has just launched, the id team is probably gearing up to tackle how they're going to handle bugs / DLC going forward, etc. NVidia is probably asking for technical details on how to approach a 3D implementation that the game's makers are under no obligation to comply to answering, so who knows what priority it is for them, etc.
Like I said, a company isn't going to say much of anything till it's pretty much for sure. And that factor may just be a matter of waiting till the other party is ready to commit to it.
It's not like flipping a switch.
For such a huge company, I find NVIDIA is far more communicative with it's customers here on the forum than most.
In this case though it isn't about not committing to an answer. Nvidia has known the answer for months...years. 3D Vision does not support OpenGL games. Many have complained about it since 3D Vision launched in 2008 but its been easy to ignore because OpenGL as the shipping runtime has been so irrelevant the last 4-5 years. Its all DirectX....probably along the lines of 99% DirectX 9/10/11 and <1% for OpenGL. I can honestly count the number of OpenGL games I've been interested that were released in the last 5 years on a single hand...and only bought 1 (Riddick: Athena).
The reason we don't have a definitive answer is because the answer is beyond the authority that Andrew, or anyone else that directly communicates with us here, has. Andrew is the 3D Vision PM and certainly does have a lot of say and influence, but messing with Quadro profitability and confirming to us that's why there's no 3D Vision support for OpenGL probably isn't something he's authorized to do.
The only way this situation is going to change is if more and more games start shipping with OpenGL runtimes.....and the only way that is going to happen is if iD Tech 5 catches on as the "must-have" engine for this generation of hardware similar to how iD Tech 3 was for DX8. Not sure if that's going to happen with the likes of CryEngine 3, UE3/4, etc out there for licensing as well. Unfortunately, Rage will probably be on a sequel and long forgotten as a current game before 3D Vision supports OpenGL....I hope I'm wrong but all those guys holding onto their 7900GTX to play OpenGL games probably agree with me.....
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
And pass on this game for me as well, at least for now. Not because i plan on holding out until theres 3D support, just until i run out of better things to play (in 3D). Between 3D games on PC and stuff comin out on 3DS, going back to 2D gaming is just weird on my eyes almost lol.
And pass on this game for me as well, at least for now. Not because i plan on holding out until theres 3D support, just until i run out of better things to play (in 3D). Between 3D games on PC and stuff comin out on 3DS, going back to 2D gaming is just weird on my eyes almost lol.
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That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
[/quote]
According to a quick google search, id Tech 5 won't be licensed outside of ZeniMax/Bethesda games.
That's bad news if iD Tech 5 becomes the licensed game engine of choice for the next few years. Does Nvidia have any plans to re-implement 3D Vision support for OpenGL or are we going to have to wait until more high profile titles pass in the rear view mirror? I don't really expect an answer but anything is better than nothing. :D
According to a quick google search, id Tech 5 won't be licensed outside of ZeniMax/Bethesda games.
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.[/quote]
chiz,
As you know, I am one of those old stereo OpenGL gamers on this forum, as I have a 7900 GTX SLI/Windows XP system for such gaming and well versed with the old Stereo driver and what it does and the games it can render in 3D stereo.
My argument regarding a Quadro, presupposed an 'as is' software configuration as we know it today with the drivers. As far as I know and have read, and have conversed with in private conversations with Nvidia folks, is that the OpenGL game would have to be coded with quad buffering to trigger 3D Vision for OpenGL (e.g. Quake III, which can also be tapped by the old Nvidia stereo driver and GLDirect for 3D Vision, but it is coded with opengl stereo if one uses the r_stereo flag in console). Could this be over-stated or possibly excepted? I'm all ears for someone to offer some empirical proof.
Now, your suggestion is far more interesting, and would require that Nvidia add back in those OpenGL calls (or activate them) in the software for Geforce and by dint of that, Quadro too if quad-buffering isn't there in the application.
I would be a huge proponent and promoter of this. It would take some kind of paradigm shift though for Nvidia to move out on it, like tons of Game Dev's opting for idtech 5 like many did for Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3. Something like that would change their mind.
FYI-regarding GLIDOS, it's not accessible for 3D Vision users. It's hard coded for Zalman, Anaglyph, and Checkerboard. For me to use it, I have to use my DLP-Link glasses.
BTW-I'm a huge id fan. I live in Dallas. Grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D, Commander Kein, Doom series, Quake series, and so on.
-photios
Also I'm not convinced a game would need to support quad buffering to work with 3D Vision, Nvidia would just need to apply the same auto-stereoizing calls for OpenGL that they do with Direct3D currently. Keep in mind, older OpenGL games that worked in 3D pre-G80 didn't support quad buffering but they were made to work in S3D with Nvidia's older drivers. Similarly, current DirectX games don't natively support quad buffering and won't until DX11.1 and Windows 8, but NVAPI handles all that currently. I've also read a few posts complaining the same pre-G80 stereo 3D code for OpenGL is in the current drivers but purposely disabled, but ofc I'm not able to verify that.
chiz,
As you know, I am one of those old stereo OpenGL gamers on this forum, as I have a 7900 GTX SLI/Windows XP system for such gaming and well versed with the old Stereo driver and what it does and the games it can render in 3D stereo.
My argument regarding a Quadro, presupposed an 'as is' software configuration as we know it today with the drivers. As far as I know and have read, and have conversed with in private conversations with Nvidia folks, is that the OpenGL game would have to be coded with quad buffering to trigger 3D Vision for OpenGL (e.g. Quake III, which can also be tapped by the old Nvidia stereo driver and GLDirect for 3D Vision, but it is coded with opengl stereo if one uses the r_stereo flag in console). Could this be over-stated or possibly excepted? I'm all ears for someone to offer some empirical proof.
Now, your suggestion is far more interesting, and would require that Nvidia add back in those OpenGL calls (or activate them) in the software for Geforce and by dint of that, Quadro too if quad-buffering isn't there in the application.
I would be a huge proponent and promoter of this. It would take some kind of paradigm shift though for Nvidia to move out on it, like tons of Game Dev's opting for idtech 5 like many did for Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3. Something like that would change their mind.
FYI-regarding GLIDOS, it's not accessible for 3D Vision users. It's hard coded for Zalman, Anaglyph, and Checkerboard. For me to use it, I have to use my DLP-Link glasses.
BTW-I'm a huge id fan. I live in Dallas. Grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D, Commander Kein, Doom series, Quake series, and so on.
-photios
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The problem is this game is designed FOR CONSOLES. And IS NOT pc compatible, that's all. Whatever your PC is, the game will look like **** with these dirty textures pop-up.
Of course, the game has NO stereo mode, so no 3D Vision, be sure of that.
By the way, I just come to buy the game. Just played 5 minutes and meh, will stay frozen until a good good good patch from steam or Nvidia. I won't even install the bundled pack, just unuseful presently.
The problem is this game is designed FOR CONSOLES. And IS NOT pc compatible, that's all. Whatever your PC is, the game will look like **** with these dirty textures pop-up.
Of course, the game has NO stereo mode, so no 3D Vision, be sure of that.
By the way, I just come to buy the game. Just played 5 minutes and meh, will stay frozen until a good good good patch from steam or Nvidia. I won't even install the bundled pack, just unuseful presently.
There's already a "solution." It's called download the latest [beta] drivers 285.38.
I have no idea what you're talking about, this game looks great. Outstanding actually. And I have high standards, I run dual GTX 590's Quad SLI, that can handle anything in existence now and for the next 4 years. Rage looks as good as any game I've seen, almost on par with Crysis 2 (DX11 and Hi-texture pack) and Battlefield 3 beta. There's no empirical evidence that this game was designed *for consoles*, in fact the opposite has been stated to be the case by id. I could careless if I have to dig through more video options or not, if a game can already tweak itself to take advantage of my hardware on the fly, more so does it save me the trouble of having to slog through it myself, and I'm very old school. Again, it depends on the way the game is coded.
What hardware are you running on?
Arioch,
I haven't seen luke warm reviews from PC *critics.* The critical reviews I've read have been 80 or so and up. Some in the 90's with an overal critic score of 85. That's quality. If 3D is your measure, then that's a principled reason to pass then I guess.
This is what metacritic says: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/rage
That's what the critics say, and as far as the "user" reviews are concerned, on the PC, I can't take them seriously considering I don't know what setup they are running it on and their level of competency. Critics on the other hand, know better usually. Though they are hardly omni-competent, they no better to throw a review out there stating "this game has massive graphics problems and texture pop-out," when a solution, on the day of realse, exists.
I hope that helps.
-photios
There's already a "solution." It's called download the latest [beta] drivers 285.38.
I have no idea what you're talking about, this game looks great. Outstanding actually. And I have high standards, I run dual GTX 590's Quad SLI, that can handle anything in existence now and for the next 4 years. Rage looks as good as any game I've seen, almost on par with Crysis 2 (DX11 and Hi-texture pack) and Battlefield 3 beta. There's no empirical evidence that this game was designed *for consoles*, in fact the opposite has been stated to be the case by id. I could careless if I have to dig through more video options or not, if a game can already tweak itself to take advantage of my hardware on the fly, more so does it save me the trouble of having to slog through it myself, and I'm very old school. Again, it depends on the way the game is coded.
What hardware are you running on?
Arioch,
I haven't seen luke warm reviews from PC *critics.* The critical reviews I've read have been 80 or so and up. Some in the 90's with an overal critic score of 85. That's quality. If 3D is your measure, then that's a principled reason to pass then I guess.
This is what metacritic says: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/rage
That's what the critics say, and as far as the "user" reviews are concerned, on the PC, I can't take them seriously considering I don't know what setup they are running it on and their level of competency. Critics on the other hand, know better usually. Though they are hardly omni-competent, they no better to throw a review out there stating "this game has massive graphics problems and texture pop-out," when a solution, on the day of realse, exists.
I hope that helps.
-photios