This discussion started in my future of 3D vision and reflection thread.
I am personally not that interested as full frame 1080p at 60hz is good enough for me.
There were some ideas and interesting points in the original thread but it was derailing the original topic.
I'm starting this thread to see if there is any interest as well as more ideas how this could be achieved.
My brain is currently empty of ideas and any solution needs to produce the required result and not fail after being 90% done. Some promising ideas will most likely not pan out and wont work in the end.
Having the conversation split across multiple threads is not ideal but I don't know what to do about it.
This discussion started in my future of 3D vision and reflection thread.
I am personally not that interested as full frame 1080p at 60hz is good enough for me.
There were some ideas and interesting points in the original thread but it was derailing the original topic.
I'm starting this thread to see if there is any interest as well as more ideas how this could be achieved.
My brain is currently empty of ideas and any solution needs to produce the required result and not fail after being 90% done. Some promising ideas will most likely not pan out and wont work in the end.
Having the conversation split across multiple threads is not ideal but I don't know what to do about it.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
Thank you Flugan for trying to find a solution to this and thank you for all your previous work!
I would have been happy to help, if the part of my brain responsible for "mathematical" thinking wouldn't have been completely neglected so long time ago. :(
The reason why I personally (and I'm sure many other people with TVs instead of monitors) would be interested in such a solution, is to have the opportunity to run games in 1080p at 60Hz on a big screen TV.
Until recently, I was OK with playing the games at 24Hz but then, with Mad Max, I saw what a difference can make a game played at 60Hz. Unfortunately, with the actual 3D vision, on a TV you can have 60Hz only for a 720p resolution which, on a big screen, forces you to pay too much attention at counting the pixels... ;)
Another good use of having 3D SBS, would be the chance to stream the fixed 3D games to the mobile phone and experience them with a VR device.
Thank you Flugan for trying to find a solution to this and thank you for all your previous work!
I would have been happy to help, if the part of my brain responsible for "mathematical" thinking wouldn't have been completely neglected so long time ago. :(
The reason why I personally (and I'm sure many other people with TVs instead of monitors) would be interested in such a solution, is to have the opportunity to run games in 1080p at 60Hz on a big screen TV.
Until recently, I was OK with playing the games at 24Hz but then, with Mad Max, I saw what a difference can make a game played at 60Hz. Unfortunately, with the actual 3D vision, on a TV you can have 60Hz only for a 720p resolution which, on a big screen, forces you to pay too much attention at counting the pixels... ;)
Another good use of having 3D SBS, would be the chance to stream the fixed 3D games to the mobile phone and experience them with a VR device.
Overclocked Intel® Core™i5-4690k Quad Core
32 Gb RAM
8GB GEFORCE GTX 1080
3D Vision 2
Windows 10 64 Bit
NVidia driver 419.17
SAMSUNG - UE55H8000 Smart 3D 55" Curved
Philips G-Sync 272G
Oculus Rift with Touch controlers
[quote="costiq"]Thank you Flugan for trying to find a solution to this and thank you for all your previous work!
I would have been happy to help, if the part of my brain responsible for "mathematical" thinking wouldn't have been completely neglected so long time ago. :(
The reason why I personally (and I'm sure many other people with TVs instead of monitors) would be interested in such a solution, is to have the opportunity to run games in 1080p at 60Hz on a big screen TV.
Until recently, I was OK with playing the games at 24Hz but then, with Mad Max, I saw what a difference can make a game played at 60Hz. Unfortunately, with the actual 3D vision, on a TV you can have 60Hz only for a 720p resolution which, on a big screen, forces you to pay too much attention at counting the pixels... ;)
Another good use of having 3D SBS, would be the chance to stream the fixed 3D games to the mobile phone and experience them with a VR device.[/quote]
Does your TV support Pixel Mode ? If so you reverse the eye pattern and can use HDMI checkerboard.
costiq said:Thank you Flugan for trying to find a solution to this and thank you for all your previous work!
I would have been happy to help, if the part of my brain responsible for "mathematical" thinking wouldn't have been completely neglected so long time ago. :(
The reason why I personally (and I'm sure many other people with TVs instead of monitors) would be interested in such a solution, is to have the opportunity to run games in 1080p at 60Hz on a big screen TV.
Until recently, I was OK with playing the games at 24Hz but then, with Mad Max, I saw what a difference can make a game played at 60Hz. Unfortunately, with the actual 3D vision, on a TV you can have 60Hz only for a 720p resolution which, on a big screen, forces you to pay too much attention at counting the pixels... ;)
Another good use of having 3D SBS, would be the chance to stream the fixed 3D games to the mobile phone and experience them with a VR device.
Does your TV support Pixel Mode ? If so you reverse the eye pattern and can use HDMI checkerboard.
Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55
Thanks for starting a dedicated thread Flugan. Here's an attempt to move some of the recent discussions to this thread - I've tried to trim some of the quoted quotes if they just quoted the entire previous post (apologies if I've missed some posts - I think there might have been another recent thread on the matter that I can't find right now):
Please do not quote this post in it's entirety
[quote="whyme466"]The missing AAA titles at VR launch is really not too surprising. This is, unfortunately, simply following the trend of some other recent hardware-driven technology "fads" - 3D launch and 4K launch - and, perhaps a similar future, without more high-quality content in early 2016.
NVIDIA VR should really be all about taking EXISTING game libraries (including helixmod.blogspot) and making them VR headset ready. This might include creating virtual gaming world with static 3D screen and chair. Not great VR, but a good bridge to the future. An option could also be provided for direct cv1 game display (fixed SBS, with cv1 optical compensation). Instead, NVIDIA, like Oculus, is also focus on selling hardware, not taking a systems approach nurturing this important technology...[/quote]
[quote="someskunkfunk"]Another option for stereo viewing I noticed is a virtual desktop app for the rift that can render any fullscreen SBS content on your monitor to the rift in 3d and I can confirm that works with tridef's SBS mode so if they could add frame sequential support to virtual desktop it may be possible to mirror a 3d vision game to the rift provided your are mirroring an actual 3d vision monitor to enable the stereo output to begin with.[/quote]
------ and in another thread -----
[quote="mike_ar69"]@3DMigoto Developers - i.e. Bo3b and Darkstarsword.
Given the current fever over VR, is there a tweak that can be added in 3DMigoto to generate SBS (LR and RL, just for completeness) output? Because if there is, then with the application of some other third party tool to create lens warping, we could have a simple way of playing all current 3DVision games on a VR headset (minus all the cool stuff like headtracking etc, but still a big win). The Nvidia API used to have this before it became "3DVision" and as you know applications that try and render 3D movies without the plugin show in SBS anyway, so we kinda just need to bypass the last part...
An even cooler addition would be add in the lens warping algorithm, OR hook into the new Nvidia VR API and use that. We then have a ready made one-stop shop for all existing games to be used on a headset[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]I believe in the case of 3DMigoto which relies on 3D Vision Automatic to actually stereorize stuff, this will be a NO-Go if you don't have 3D Vision as the driver will fail to stereorize anything.
In which case I think we need a full wrapper to do what nvidia automatic does.... (or use it on a PC that is already 3D Vision Ready but instead of displaying on the screen you do additional processing and send it to the VR helmet).
I think is a bit to early to tell since we don't have a VR set and to see if nvidia driver even allows this thing...
Another approach is to use 3D Discover Mode! And intercept before the Red and Blue filters are applied to each eye and present those frames. This way we don't need a 3D Vision Ready PC (monitor + emitter).
An additional approach is to do what I do in my wrapper, which works the same without 3D Vision as I handle everything inside. AT 90 FPS per second I bet there will be no eye lag so that approach might work. This is something I intend to do with my wrapper in the future anyway.
But again, without the hardware and the API knowledge I can't say for sure. Maybe bo3b or DarkStarSword know more on this then me, but this is how I see it;)[/quote]
[quote="mike_ar69"][quote="helifax"]
Another approach is to use 3D Discover Mode! And intercept before the Red and Blue filters are applied to each eye and present those frames. This way we don't need a 3D Vision Ready PC (monitor + emitter).
[/quote]
Yeah - this is what I was talking about. Nvidia automatic generates the two images THEN it packages them up into an appropriate output format: 3DVision, Anaglyph, SBS, Top-Bottom or whatever. So we intercept just after we get the 2 stereo images and make SBS the output, or do nothing in which case SBS is probably "what you get". That way we are getting the full benefit of 3D automatic, and our own fixes, in generating the two stereo images. For VR, we just need to make sure the image are LR, and not cross-eyed, that's all. The lens warping will be a necessary extra step for VR, hence my other suggestions about where that might happen. TrinusVR just needs to you provide an LR SBS output, then it takes over - though of course it also provides an interface to the motion sensors and so on. But as a first pass, to play 3DVision games in a VR headset (so looking around still using a mouse etc) this could still work. Put it this way, I will try it tonight with Minecraft and let you know :-)
PS - there is version of Minecraft call "Mine'CRIFT", which has been VR-ified. I plan on trying that as well.[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]Since I can't test it.. as I don't have a VR headset:) I am actually interested in trying my OpenGL wrapper on any of the available games. Start it normally on 3D Vision then CTRL+T to disable 3D Vision which will give you SBS. My wrapper requires 3D Vision to be present ONLY as a check! If I don't find the hardware I switch to mono, but if I disable the check it will always be in SBS ;)) I can do this in basically one line of code:)) Also the surface I am presenting to is using DirectX9 (might be required to change it to DX11 at some point).
But I think is a quick test and I am also interested to see if the wrapper can be used like this;)
I still think the Vive will be awesome and the way to go;) as I have much more faith in it;) (voices in my head). :))[/quote]
[quote="DarkStarSword"]It should be fairly easy to grab the left and right views out of 3D Vision on the present call and we could then change them to output side-by-side, but we would probably also need to stop 3D Vision from trying to output stereo/anaglyph anyway and I'm not entirely sure how we could do that (I'm more concerned about anaglyph here as it might change the colours even if we make sure that it doesn't draw everything doubled).
We might also want to consider optionally outputting to a virtual screen instead of directly to the VR display (it could easily be a very large virtual screen) - the projection would likely look better and it will probably be more comfortable for the viewer in a lot of games.
Edit: Actually, the virtual screen may not even be optional due to differences in the stereo projections - smething at infinity is drawn separation pixels apart in 3D Vision, but in VR it should (I think) be in the same position on both displays since they are already almost but not quite lined up with each eye. It might work if we put separation to minimum and use only convergence for the 3D effect, but not sure that would quite work either because I'm not sure it would account for all the differences between the nvidia stereo correction and a VR style stereo projection.[/quote]
[quote="bo3b"]Heh! We are all thinking along the same lines. I was thinking of something similar to this idea as a way to get all of our fixes available in the VR headsets to come, essentially treat them as new 3D display devices.
There are several things that already try to do this, to varying degrees of success. I haven't used any in the last year, so I don't know how they stack up today. VorpX does the automatic fixing, and it's very likely we could add a 3Dmigoto/Helix fix to his pipeline. Vireio does from scratch what 3D Vision does, but is platform agnostic and also does SBS output. Last I checked Vireio was a bit fragile, but it's open source so it's fixable. There is also a virtual cinema already.
My thought was to use the Oculus SDK in combination with Nvapi to create a different output. 3D Vision would be enabled, but off by default, to avoid having them try to capture the output. We'd then hook the game in question, apply our fix, and include setting driver mode to automatic. At Present(), we'd connect to Oculus SDK for warping and proper side-by-side output.
At a minimum, I think we could make a virtual 3D screen, like a projector size screen to play. Doing the math on the pixels and making some approximations, we'd wind up with a similar pixel ratio as a 720p projector in a virtual screen. That's certainly a good experience today, and would probably work here as well. That would involve faking out 3D TV Play or some sort of EDID override or something to allow the data to be displayed.
Pretty sure this can be done, just not sure about quality. The main reason I didn't use DK2 is the quality wasn't there, I'll be very curious to see how CV1 compares.[/quote]
[quote="D-Man11"][quote="bo3b"]......3D Vision would be enabled.....
.....faking out 3D TV Play...... [/quote]
Accessing Nvidia's Stereoscopic drivers via either 3D Vision, 3DTV Play, Optimized for GeForce or 3D Vision could be a problem.
3D Vision can work via any connection (excluding USB) but "requires' that an emitter and certified display is present. It will only output Frame Packed, Frame Sequential or Checkerboard.
3DTV Play requires a $40 product key to unlock or a Nvidia emitter. It will only work via a "HDMI" connection and the display "must" be HDMI 1.4 compliant. Nvidia limits this to certain screen sizes, small displays must be added by Nvidia themselves, such as the Sony HMZ-T1. Unless they have removed the screen size requirement that they put in place to prevent access by displays such as the Sony PS3 monitor. 3DTV Play only outputs Frame Packed or Checkerboard.
Optimized for GeForce only works via a HDMI connection. Does not require a product key, but does require a certified display. It will "only" output Line Interleaved.
3D Vision Discover, was known to work with any display for free without any special requirements. But for quite some time now, support is hit and miss with different drivers and different displays.
The problem lies in where Nvidia buries their stuff in the drivers and how they perform their checks and balances. Any changes to refresh rates and/or resolution typically result in a red warning overlay. Any changes to registry settings get reset, if not locked.
The consumer side is pretty stiff and un-flexible.
I'm uncertain how flexible the pro side is.[/quote]
[quote="D-Man11"]Nvidia also allows HDMI 1.4 access to it's stereo drivers for games supporting Native 3D or for Blu-ray playback. But this is also limited to the same refresh rates and resolutions supported in 3DTV Play. If they aren't used, you get the red overlay and stereo is disabled. [/quote]
[quote="helifax"]D-Man11:
- What bo3b is saying is to try and emulate a 3D Vision setup so the nvidia 3D Vision driver kicks in and does the Stereorization for us. The driver then doesn't need to output anywhere but to our buffers which we use to draw.
As a pure schematic:
Plain 2D ----> Emulate 3D Vision ----> 3D driver kicks in and does the Automatic Stereo Conversion ----> Apply 3DMigoto game fix ----> We capture the output and using Oculus SDK we present it in our own Window ----> Stereo 3D.
This is exactly like my wrapper is working, except relying on the 3D Vision Automatic driver to do the automatic Stereorization (since there isn't anything for OpenGL).
At least this is how I understand it;)[/quote]
[quote="D-Man11"]What I'm saying is that Nvidia doesn't allow you to willy nilly pick any resolution, refresh rate or format with their consumer stereoscopic drivers.
So a lot will depend on how it's accessed. Like I said, even games that have Native Stereoscopic support for all formats, resolutions and refresh rates are limited to what Nvidia allows when used with a Nvidia GPU.
I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with another product like "VR Vision" or something and lock it's support to certified headsets.
As far as your wrapper, the only reason that it can be used in side by side is because of the way that it generates and presents the frames. Which you admit, results in issues due to the overhead incurred from wrapping OpenGL to DirectX. If you can solved your overhead, OpenGL games would be an option. Unless by solving your overhead, it changes the current way that you present your frames. In which case, when you exit 3D via ctrl+t, you would see a single image, just as you do with DirectX games.[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]There is no overhead. The OpenGL games are still rendered using OpenGL. The additional logic that the wrapper does is minimal at best! The huge chunk of code that gets executed is during initialisation. I just capture the result and display it in a DirectX 9 Window since the nvidia driver requires a DirectX 9 - 11 context to allow the 3d Vision hardware to kick in.
You still see side-by-side when you CTRL+T because I don't stop Stereo rendering. Basically I don't do anything as nothing has happened. I ALWAYS render side-by-side!!! Is the nvidia driver that takes left image and displays it for left eye and right image for right eye and changes the display mode to FRAME SEQUENTIAL. This is done by adding a special signature in the header of the color textures for each eye. The driver picks up this signature and changes the way how the display type works, not the content.
Thus the 120Hz/2 = 60Hz for each eye. Is basically a display CONVERSION and NOT a CONTENT conversion;)
Is easy to make the wrapper show MONO on CTRL+T but I didn't do this because of the feedback I got: Some people like to have the ability to get a SBS image and use it with OTHER hardware than nvidia 3D Vision;)
The Only overhead is in the OpenGL-DirectX compatibility Layer that is part of the nvidia Driver and which I don't have any control over it and in the Display type conversion. What I want to say is that I don't need the nvidia driver at all to make an OpenGL game display in Stereo 3D in SBS!
I can do it on an Intel HD GPU or an AMD one as well. I use Nvapi in order to output to 3D Vision in Frame sequential.[/quote]
[quote="helifax"][quote="D-Man11"]Hmmm. thanks for the reply.
But what about the eye sync issues using your OpenGL wrapper, isn't it some kind of frame stutter?Would this be noticeable using a VR headset?[/quote]
Unless we test I can't say. But even now if you keep 60 fps constant you don't see it:) So I imagine 90 FPS will be liquid clear. But more tests are required of course;)
That is based on how I do the stereoscopy. And is part of the Stereorize part. This is a limitation from how OpenGL works as an API (state machine) rather than an object oriented environment.
This proves to be very hard to reverse engineer and automatize it.
In DirectX this is simpler and much more straight-forward, due to being an OO environment.
3D Vision Automatic does this part by duplicating render targets & draw calls (this is content creation part)
and they displays it (display conversion part).
What we are talking about above is to somehow fool the driver to do the content creation but not the display conversion;) so we can still use the 3DMigoto Fixes.
[/quote]
[quote="eqzitara"]Didnt NVIDIA already add support to DK2 for 3D vision? With virtual screen [and sides are cut off].
"Optimized content: Few applications support VR headsets. So we’re bringing VR support to games that already work with NVIDIA 3D Vision."
I could of sworn reading about it but it not being talked about cause not many people really used DK2 past a few days.
[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/2pmhmz/nvidia_34709_first_driver_with_3d_vision_support/[/url][/quote]
[quote="D-Man11"]Oh yah, forgot about that.
That's VR Direct, which was launched with the GTX 9XX series and is Maxwell exclusive due to the architecture. http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/09/18/maxwell-virtual-reality/
You probably read about it on the Oculus forums.
https://forums.oculus.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=18232
Someone could probably PM Cybereality and ask him if he already some hacks going for other headsets.
[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]NOW THAT LAST LINE:
"Optimized content: Few applications support VR headsets. So we’re bringing VR support to games that already work with NVIDIA 3D Vision."
- See more at: http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/09/18/maxwell-virtual-reality/#sthash.kaemHxU8.dpuf
If that LINE proves to be TRUE!!! We are GOLDEN! and I will buy the Oculus RIFT the next day somebody confirms this! (even from E-bay at the ridiculous price).
If that is still true... (Going in the corner and praying...)[/quote]
[quote="eqzitara"]Well, its projected image on screen. Like a big screen but with Rift thats like a lot of wasted space. Like if I were to guess maybe half used pixels?
I can't imagine it was that great I seriously only heard about it for one day.[/quote]
[quote="bo3b"]Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that announcement. Haven't seen anything since regarding that one-liner about game support, but if it's still true, that would save a lot of effort, and make all HelixMod fixes instantly available with a bright and zero ghosting display.
But.. NVidia. I have to assume they lost focus somewhere along the way. Thanks for the reminder though, I'll see if I can find anything relative to the VR ready driver they shipped at Christmas.[/quote]
------ and in another thread -----
[quote="DHR"]Is an idea/suggestion: In a couple of threads we are talking how to add the option of SBS mode and TAB mode. Will be very nice to have that function in 3Dmigoto/Flugan/other. To my mind there are 4 names that will can do this: DSS, bo3b, helifax and you.....i don't think any is working in something like that, but will be amazing to have it.
a couple of things:
- This feature have to be compatible with 3Dmigoto and flugan wrapper
- SBS and TAB have to work in 1080p at least
- This feature have to be compatible with 3DTV Play (VR purposes for 3r party softwares like Trinus VR or future sw that come)
- In some future add some features to tweak FOV and lens distortion (VR purpose)
And don't be sad for help and make some great contributions to the community....THANKS for that!!
Cheers!![/quote]
[quote="DHR"][quote="Conan481"]Also, DHR, do you think that something like SBS at 4k would be doable? That would look amazing for anyone with a 4k TV and I believe would be equivalent for system resources stand point as gaming at 4K in 2D?[/quote]
Yes, of course is possible.....i try Trine 3 in 4K - TAB mode (downsampled to 1080p), this game have the options already. Due the HDMI 1.4 limit, if i remember well, the game plays at 30fps...if you have a HDMI 2.0 will run at 4K 3D SBS or TAB at 60fps[/quote]
[quote="Flugan"]I know that some VG278H monitors supports SBS which is stated in the manual and if I remember correctly it is when using HDMI. I have had no luck with SBS on my monitor and even then we would be talking half-SBS. My monitor supports dual-link DVI 3D Vision and frame packed HDMI using 3D Vision glasses.
Last time I looked at HDMI 2.0 which is supported by my GTX 980 there was no new frame packed modes added. As far as I know frame packed 3D is the only one that automatically enables 3D on a TV using HDMI. Don't be too picky with details as my experience is limited to monitors only and I don't own a HDMI 2.0 display device.
Being used to 1080p60 per eye makes me wonder how to achieve that on a TV. I'm not talking crazy high resolution interlaced solutions as those are far more demanding than plain old 1080p. I don't think anyone is looking for 2160p60 per eye at this point as the performance is not here mostly.
[img]http://www.pcper.com/files/imagecache/article_max_width/review/2013-03-25/howgameswork.jpg[/img]
This image don't cover 3D Vision but we are hooking DirectX and interacting with the game. With 3D Vision automatic the game is not aware of each scene being rendered twice by duplicating rendering calls. As we are fully aware 3D Vision automatic breaks shaders which is where the developer can make them 3D aware or at a later point shaderhackers.
I don't know how it's done but because fraps can record 3D Vision gameplay it should be possible to capture each eye and produce SBS output. There is a massive question if it is possible. Somehow activating 120hz 3D Vision which requires a certified monitor and in the end producing 60hz SBS. It doesn't make any sense as why would I prefer using 60hz SBS on my 120hz 3D Vision monitor. Considering fraps severly impacting the already sensitive performance makes me question the approach further.
I'm currently treating the 3D Vision driver as a black box and if it could output SBS they would already expose it. At times they clearly stated that they would not output SBS as that is a manual 3D mode requiring correct user interaction. One interesting but worthless point is that it's possible to do twitch streaming resulting in SBS video that can be sent to the TV. Not sure how massive the latency will be. framepacked 720p for gaming and 1080p for movies seems to be what HDMI has decided even in 2.0.
I'm open for ideas but feature requests regarding output modes which is pretty much under control of the 3D Vision driver is not something I consider feasable.
I've also been approached to replicate 3D Vision which would bring many options but is clearly beyond the scope of a single guy.[/quote]
[quote="DHR"]@Flugan
I'm not expert on this, but i thing is possible.....Here are some ideas (3DMigoto thread, post #692 onwards):
[url]https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/685657/3d-vision/3dmigoto-now-open-source-/post/4775019/#4775019[/url]
[quote="DarkStarSword"]It should be fairly easy to grab the left and right views out of 3D Vision on the present call and we could then change them to output side-by-side, but we would probably also need to stop 3D Vision from trying to output stereo/anaglyph anyway and I'm not entirely sure how we could do that (I'm more concerned about anaglyph here as it might change the colours even if we make sure that it doesn't draw everything doubled).[/quote]
You can have both options: half or full SBS / TAB
"half" for HDMI 1.4 and "full" for HDMI 2.0
This is not going to happens from nvidia side, so is up to the community to do it...[/quote]
[quote="Flugan"]I'm still not saying it is easy but 3D Vision works in three ways:
3D Vision Ready
3D Vision Discover
3DTV play
3DTV play is limited to framepacked and can not render 120 frames at 1080p
3D Vision Ready is probably not available when using a TV but obviouosly capable of running 120hz 1080p
3D Vision Discoverer can run 120hz 1080p it can even run 1080p in pivot.
While 3D Vision discoverer seems like the only solution it clearly has problems.
One good thing is that 3D Vision discoverer already works on any display but obviously has filtered colors.
It's not something I would spend any time on considering I have no TV and absolutely no intention in buying one. I really don't think SBS support would be enough to make 3D Vision the optimal solution for VR. I still don't have a confirmation that VR works well while wearing glasses.
As DSS says too much happens inside the driver. From the perspective of the game it renders once but after the 3D Vision driver the render calls are doubled and we have our new render angles. The color changes in anaglyph happens late in the driver. Recording in fraps captures full color images. The output path of 3D Vision happens inside the driver and is pretty hard to change.
One pretty slow scenario would be to render in anaglyph on a 1080p monitor and send the SBS image to the TV. Things are only rendered once but I expect the copy operation to be a FPS killer and I'm not sure if vsync is needed for the TV it might just give some tearing.
I'm still only thinking out loud I don't have any motivation towards SBS rather the opposite because my monitor came from a batch not supporting SBS.
Lastly it is apparent that the driver supports "full-SBS" as frame packed 3D is basically SBS but with some extra data.[/quote]
[quote="Conan481"][quote="DHR"][quote="Conan481"]Also, DHR, do you think that something like SBS at 4k would be doable? That would look amazing for anyone with a 4k TV and I believe would be equivalent for system resources stand point as gaming at 4K in 2D?[/quote]
Yes, of course is possible.....i try Trine 3 in 4K - TAB mode (downsampled to 1080p), this game have the options already. Due the HDMI 1.4 limit, if i remember well, the game plays at 30fps...if you have a HDMI 2.0 will run at 4K 3D SBS or TAB at 60fps[/quote]
I know it's technically possible as I also played Trine 3, but that was because of developer support and nothing to do with Nvidia.
Also, I installed Tridef yesterday and played GTA 5 in 4k SBS and was averaging 47 FPS in 3D. It was only "fake" 3D but whats nice is that there was no CPU 3 core bottleneck while using SBS.
What I was saying was it would be awesome if someone figured out a way to add SBS support for 3D vision, or somehow porting fix to tridef software.
You can buy a 4K 3D TV for under 800 easy. Considering the price of some 3D monitors, I think a 4K 3D TV would be the best overall experience. 4K SBS looks way better then the Rog Swift 1440p and requires less GPU power as well. 4K SBS gives the same performance as 2D 4K.[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]Adding SBS to 3d Vision is actually easier than most expect. The only think we need to do is to "disable" the "3D Vision" rendering Path in the 3D Vision driver, so the driver doesn't change the mode from 2D display to 3D frame alternating. You already see this in quite a few games on my wrapper. Internally the framebuffer is always rendered as SBS.
By saying "easy" I mean that we don't need to hack or capture any stuff from the rendering pipeline. We just need to fool the driver not to SWITCH the 3D Mode of the DISPLAY while the 3D Vision way of functioning is un-touched:)[/quote]
[quote="Flugan"]One question is if the full frame is rendered and squeezed afterwards or somehow rendered squeezed. This clearly impacts performance and from the look of it 3D Vision don't render squeezed in any scenario.
In addition to the possible difficulty I'm anticipating degraded performance.
All the fixes are heavily coupled to nvidia most significant the 3D texture created through NVAPI.[/quote]
[quote="Conan481"]Just did some more testing with tridef and 4K SBS in REAL 3D does significantly degrade performance in 3D. MY bad. Also Over/Under looks better to my eye as well. Gonna keep messing around with different modes.
...Still 3D vision is superior to tridef. [/quote]
[quote="Flugan"]Helifax, would you mind elaborate further as I imagine you have communicated with the driver to get things working at all. I don't think you can get SBS just by altering DX calls.
I still expect different behavior depending on mode (3D Ready, TV, Discoverer)
If I'm not mistaken Discoverer can run at speeds faster than 60hz per eye. I have not confirmed this.
If there is a simple way to enable SBS including full-SBS then why not.
I'm not aware how much the driver can be controlled but my initial fear is if we end up disabling 3D Vision automatic in the process.[/quote]
[quote="helifax"]This needs a lot more testing but what I discovered during my wrapper development:
- Create DX9 context -> Check
- Create 3D Textures for left/right eye and insert NVIDIA 3D Vision FLAG/HEADER ->Check
=> Result: You get SBS in a DX9 Windows, but 3D Vision is disabled! (Emitter doesn't start, Monitor(s) is in 2D)
- Alter/Create a Profile for the App (add some of the 3D Known flags) -> 3D Vision driver picks the profile and "enables" the 3D Vision emitter + Monitor mode to 3D.
So, what I am thinking is modifying the last part! (Alter the profile or PREVENT the driver to kick in 3D Vision Mode). The result will be a SBS image! Now this needs more testing and stuff and NVAPI hooking;) We shouldn't modify any of the DX calls or functions.
This will result in the App/Game/Driver thinking is rendering for 3D Vision but WE modify HOW the L/R images are presented;) Instead of alternating between L & R we present them BOTH at once;)
Now, it might not work like this by default! In which case we could HOOK and create OUR own DX/11 Context and PRESENT the L/R images in it. The nvidia driver will have everything setup for 3D Vision rendering by default;)
OFC this will only work if you have a 3D Vision capable hardware...
The only other method is to code the wrapper from scratch (like I did for OpenGL) which means we need to handle the Automatic Stereorization and FBO + Draw Calls duplications, etc...
I would start with the FIRST method though... and see if we can get that one working!
This is at least MY idea;) Like I said, we need to do some testing;) and currently my time is a bit short, but I will pursue this at some point as I am really interested to find out if it works (like I believe it will) ^_^.[/quote]
[quote="DarkStarSword"][quote="helifax"]=> Result: You get SBS in a DX9 Windows, but 3D Vision is disabled! (Emitter doesn't start, Monitor(s) is in 2D)[/quote]
But, isn't that because you literally just handed DX a side by side image? The scenario is easier for your wrapper as you create the stereo images yourself and only use 3D Vision for the output, whereas in DX games we depend on it to create the 3D images in the first place, and I'm not certain you can disable the 3D Vision output without also disabling that.
I added a feature to 3DMigoto a while back that can extract the left + right views from 3DVision easily enough converting them to side by side (I use this to improve the accuracy of my auto HUD shaders and to flip stereo inverted mirrors in MGSVTPP around the right way). I haven't tried, but getting the output to display SBS might be as simple as:
[code]
[Present]
o0 = stereo2mono o0
[/code]
It's probably not quite that simple (and that won't restore the original o0 - I'll need to add a post command list to Present to handle that), but as of a couple of versions ago 3DMigoto supports injecting custom shaders, so as long as the rest of the pipeline state is usable it should be relatively straight forward to inject a shader to change the SBS result of stereo2mono to half packed SBS or TAB, optionally reversed.
But all that will all only work if 3D Vision is creating both stereo views, otherwise you will just get 2x mono images, and I'm not aware of any way to force that if 3D Vision isn't being used for the output as well. If we were creating both views ourselves it would be a completely different matter - I'm not discounting that possibility, but it will require a considerable amount of engineering effort to get working, especially if we don't want to break compatibility with existing fixes that knowingly or unknowingly rely on driver heuristics that we would have to replicate.
Discover mode seems like the best bet to prevent this being tied to a 3D Vision compatible monitor/TV. Getting full colour left/right views is not a problem while using anaglyph, the only problem we have to solve is how to output it in full colour. We can potentially still use the Discover output if the anaglyph mode they are using doesn't damage the colours too much if we only output mono (depends on which type of anaglyph they are using - can't test right now, installing Win10 on a 2nd HDD...). If it does damage the colours too much it's still potentially usable if we create a 2nd window that isn't using 3D Vision and output to that instead.
[/quote]
Thanks for starting a dedicated thread Flugan. Here's an attempt to move some of the recent discussions to this thread - I've tried to trim some of the quoted quotes if they just quoted the entire previous post (apologies if I've missed some posts - I think there might have been another recent thread on the matter that I can't find right now):
Please do not quote this post in it's entirety
whyme466 said:The missing AAA titles at VR launch is really not too surprising. This is, unfortunately, simply following the trend of some other recent hardware-driven technology "fads" - 3D launch and 4K launch - and, perhaps a similar future, without more high-quality content in early 2016.
NVIDIA VR should really be all about taking EXISTING game libraries (including helixmod.blogspot) and making them VR headset ready. This might include creating virtual gaming world with static 3D screen and chair. Not great VR, but a good bridge to the future. An option could also be provided for direct cv1 game display (fixed SBS, with cv1 optical compensation). Instead, NVIDIA, like Oculus, is also focus on selling hardware, not taking a systems approach nurturing this important technology...
someskunkfunk said:Another option for stereo viewing I noticed is a virtual desktop app for the rift that can render any fullscreen SBS content on your monitor to the rift in 3d and I can confirm that works with tridef's SBS mode so if they could add frame sequential support to virtual desktop it may be possible to mirror a 3d vision game to the rift provided your are mirroring an actual 3d vision monitor to enable the stereo output to begin with.
------ and in another thread -----
mike_ar69 said:@3DMigoto Developers - i.e. Bo3b and Darkstarsword.
Given the current fever over VR, is there a tweak that can be added in 3DMigoto to generate SBS (LR and RL, just for completeness) output? Because if there is, then with the application of some other third party tool to create lens warping, we could have a simple way of playing all current 3DVision games on a VR headset (minus all the cool stuff like headtracking etc, but still a big win). The Nvidia API used to have this before it became "3DVision" and as you know applications that try and render 3D movies without the plugin show in SBS anyway, so we kinda just need to bypass the last part...
An even cooler addition would be add in the lens warping algorithm, OR hook into the new Nvidia VR API and use that. We then have a ready made one-stop shop for all existing games to be used on a headset
helifax said:I believe in the case of 3DMigoto which relies on 3D Vision Automatic to actually stereorize stuff, this will be a NO-Go if you don't have 3D Vision as the driver will fail to stereorize anything.
In which case I think we need a full wrapper to do what nvidia automatic does.... (or use it on a PC that is already 3D Vision Ready but instead of displaying on the screen you do additional processing and send it to the VR helmet).
I think is a bit to early to tell since we don't have a VR set and to see if nvidia driver even allows this thing...
Another approach is to use 3D Discover Mode! And intercept before the Red and Blue filters are applied to each eye and present those frames. This way we don't need a 3D Vision Ready PC (monitor + emitter).
An additional approach is to do what I do in my wrapper, which works the same without 3D Vision as I handle everything inside. AT 90 FPS per second I bet there will be no eye lag so that approach might work. This is something I intend to do with my wrapper in the future anyway.
But again, without the hardware and the API knowledge I can't say for sure. Maybe bo3b or DarkStarSword know more on this then me, but this is how I see it;)
mike_ar69 said:
helifax said:
Another approach is to use 3D Discover Mode! And intercept before the Red and Blue filters are applied to each eye and present those frames. This way we don't need a 3D Vision Ready PC (monitor + emitter).
Yeah - this is what I was talking about. Nvidia automatic generates the two images THEN it packages them up into an appropriate output format: 3DVision, Anaglyph, SBS, Top-Bottom or whatever. So we intercept just after we get the 2 stereo images and make SBS the output, or do nothing in which case SBS is probably "what you get". That way we are getting the full benefit of 3D automatic, and our own fixes, in generating the two stereo images. For VR, we just need to make sure the image are LR, and not cross-eyed, that's all. The lens warping will be a necessary extra step for VR, hence my other suggestions about where that might happen. TrinusVR just needs to you provide an LR SBS output, then it takes over - though of course it also provides an interface to the motion sensors and so on. But as a first pass, to play 3DVision games in a VR headset (so looking around still using a mouse etc) this could still work. Put it this way, I will try it tonight with Minecraft and let you know :-)
PS - there is version of Minecraft call "Mine'CRIFT", which has been VR-ified. I plan on trying that as well.
helifax said:Since I can't test it.. as I don't have a VR headset:) I am actually interested in trying my OpenGL wrapper on any of the available games. Start it normally on 3D Vision then CTRL+T to disable 3D Vision which will give you SBS. My wrapper requires 3D Vision to be present ONLY as a check! If I don't find the hardware I switch to mono, but if I disable the check it will always be in SBS ;)) I can do this in basically one line of code:)) Also the surface I am presenting to is using DirectX9 (might be required to change it to DX11 at some point).
But I think is a quick test and I am also interested to see if the wrapper can be used like this;)
I still think the Vive will be awesome and the way to go;) as I have much more faith in it;) (voices in my head). :))
DarkStarSword said:It should be fairly easy to grab the left and right views out of 3D Vision on the present call and we could then change them to output side-by-side, but we would probably also need to stop 3D Vision from trying to output stereo/anaglyph anyway and I'm not entirely sure how we could do that (I'm more concerned about anaglyph here as it might change the colours even if we make sure that it doesn't draw everything doubled).
We might also want to consider optionally outputting to a virtual screen instead of directly to the VR display (it could easily be a very large virtual screen) - the projection would likely look better and it will probably be more comfortable for the viewer in a lot of games.
Edit: Actually, the virtual screen may not even be optional due to differences in the stereo projections - smething at infinity is drawn separation pixels apart in 3D Vision, but in VR it should (I think) be in the same position on both displays since they are already almost but not quite lined up with each eye. It might work if we put separation to minimum and use only convergence for the 3D effect, but not sure that would quite work either because I'm not sure it would account for all the differences between the nvidia stereo correction and a VR style stereo projection.
bo3b said:Heh! We are all thinking along the same lines. I was thinking of something similar to this idea as a way to get all of our fixes available in the VR headsets to come, essentially treat them as new 3D display devices.
There are several things that already try to do this, to varying degrees of success. I haven't used any in the last year, so I don't know how they stack up today. VorpX does the automatic fixing, and it's very likely we could add a 3Dmigoto/Helix fix to his pipeline. Vireio does from scratch what 3D Vision does, but is platform agnostic and also does SBS output. Last I checked Vireio was a bit fragile, but it's open source so it's fixable. There is also a virtual cinema already.
My thought was to use the Oculus SDK in combination with Nvapi to create a different output. 3D Vision would be enabled, but off by default, to avoid having them try to capture the output. We'd then hook the game in question, apply our fix, and include setting driver mode to automatic. At Present(), we'd connect to Oculus SDK for warping and proper side-by-side output.
At a minimum, I think we could make a virtual 3D screen, like a projector size screen to play. Doing the math on the pixels and making some approximations, we'd wind up with a similar pixel ratio as a 720p projector in a virtual screen. That's certainly a good experience today, and would probably work here as well. That would involve faking out 3D TV Play or some sort of EDID override or something to allow the data to be displayed.
Pretty sure this can be done, just not sure about quality. The main reason I didn't use DK2 is the quality wasn't there, I'll be very curious to see how CV1 compares.
D-Man11 said:
bo3b said:......3D Vision would be enabled.....
.....faking out 3D TV Play......
Accessing Nvidia's Stereoscopic drivers via either 3D Vision, 3DTV Play, Optimized for GeForce or 3D Vision could be a problem.
3D Vision can work via any connection (excluding USB) but "requires' that an emitter and certified display is present. It will only output Frame Packed, Frame Sequential or Checkerboard.
3DTV Play requires a $40 product key to unlock or a Nvidia emitter. It will only work via a "HDMI" connection and the display "must" be HDMI 1.4 compliant. Nvidia limits this to certain screen sizes, small displays must be added by Nvidia themselves, such as the Sony HMZ-T1. Unless they have removed the screen size requirement that they put in place to prevent access by displays such as the Sony PS3 monitor. 3DTV Play only outputs Frame Packed or Checkerboard.
Optimized for GeForce only works via a HDMI connection. Does not require a product key, but does require a certified display. It will "only" output Line Interleaved.
3D Vision Discover, was known to work with any display for free without any special requirements. But for quite some time now, support is hit and miss with different drivers and different displays.
The problem lies in where Nvidia buries their stuff in the drivers and how they perform their checks and balances. Any changes to refresh rates and/or resolution typically result in a red warning overlay. Any changes to registry settings get reset, if not locked.
The consumer side is pretty stiff and un-flexible.
I'm uncertain how flexible the pro side is.
D-Man11 said:Nvidia also allows HDMI 1.4 access to it's stereo drivers for games supporting Native 3D or for Blu-ray playback. But this is also limited to the same refresh rates and resolutions supported in 3DTV Play. If they aren't used, you get the red overlay and stereo is disabled.
helifax said:D-Man11:
- What bo3b is saying is to try and emulate a 3D Vision setup so the nvidia 3D Vision driver kicks in and does the Stereorization for us. The driver then doesn't need to output anywhere but to our buffers which we use to draw.
As a pure schematic:
Plain 2D ----> Emulate 3D Vision ----> 3D driver kicks in and does the Automatic Stereo Conversion ----> Apply 3DMigoto game fix ----> We capture the output and using Oculus SDK we present it in our own Window ----> Stereo 3D.
This is exactly like my wrapper is working, except relying on the 3D Vision Automatic driver to do the automatic Stereorization (since there isn't anything for OpenGL).
At least this is how I understand it;)
D-Man11 said:What I'm saying is that Nvidia doesn't allow you to willy nilly pick any resolution, refresh rate or format with their consumer stereoscopic drivers.
So a lot will depend on how it's accessed. Like I said, even games that have Native Stereoscopic support for all formats, resolutions and refresh rates are limited to what Nvidia allows when used with a Nvidia GPU.
I wouldn't be surprised if they came out with another product like "VR Vision" or something and lock it's support to certified headsets.
As far as your wrapper, the only reason that it can be used in side by side is because of the way that it generates and presents the frames. Which you admit, results in issues due to the overhead incurred from wrapping OpenGL to DirectX. If you can solved your overhead, OpenGL games would be an option. Unless by solving your overhead, it changes the current way that you present your frames. In which case, when you exit 3D via ctrl+t, you would see a single image, just as you do with DirectX games.
helifax said:There is no overhead. The OpenGL games are still rendered using OpenGL. The additional logic that the wrapper does is minimal at best! The huge chunk of code that gets executed is during initialisation. I just capture the result and display it in a DirectX 9 Window since the nvidia driver requires a DirectX 9 - 11 context to allow the 3d Vision hardware to kick in.
You still see side-by-side when you CTRL+T because I don't stop Stereo rendering. Basically I don't do anything as nothing has happened. I ALWAYS render side-by-side!!! Is the nvidia driver that takes left image and displays it for left eye and right image for right eye and changes the display mode to FRAME SEQUENTIAL. This is done by adding a special signature in the header of the color textures for each eye. The driver picks up this signature and changes the way how the display type works, not the content.
Thus the 120Hz/2 = 60Hz for each eye. Is basically a display CONVERSION and NOT a CONTENT conversion;)
Is easy to make the wrapper show MONO on CTRL+T but I didn't do this because of the feedback I got: Some people like to have the ability to get a SBS image and use it with OTHER hardware than nvidia 3D Vision;)
The Only overhead is in the OpenGL-DirectX compatibility Layer that is part of the nvidia Driver and which I don't have any control over it and in the Display type conversion. What I want to say is that I don't need the nvidia driver at all to make an OpenGL game display in Stereo 3D in SBS!
I can do it on an Intel HD GPU or an AMD one as well. I use Nvapi in order to output to 3D Vision in Frame sequential.
helifax said:
D-Man11 said:Hmmm. thanks for the reply.
But what about the eye sync issues using your OpenGL wrapper, isn't it some kind of frame stutter?Would this be noticeable using a VR headset?
Unless we test I can't say. But even now if you keep 60 fps constant you don't see it:) So I imagine 90 FPS will be liquid clear. But more tests are required of course;)
That is based on how I do the stereoscopy. And is part of the Stereorize part. This is a limitation from how OpenGL works as an API (state machine) rather than an object oriented environment.
This proves to be very hard to reverse engineer and automatize it.
In DirectX this is simpler and much more straight-forward, due to being an OO environment.
3D Vision Automatic does this part by duplicating render targets & draw calls (this is content creation part)
and they displays it (display conversion part).
What we are talking about above is to somehow fool the driver to do the content creation but not the display conversion;) so we can still use the 3DMigoto Fixes.
eqzitara said:Didnt NVIDIA already add support to DK2 for 3D vision? With virtual screen [and sides are cut off].
"Optimized content: Few applications support VR headsets. So we’re bringing VR support to games that already work with NVIDIA 3D Vision."
Someone could probably PM Cybereality and ask him if he already some hacks going for other headsets.
helifax said:NOW THAT LAST LINE:
"Optimized content: Few applications support VR headsets. So we’re bringing VR support to games that already work with NVIDIA 3D Vision."
- See more at: http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/09/18/maxwell-virtual-reality/#sthash.kaemHxU8.dpuf
If that LINE proves to be TRUE!!! We are GOLDEN! and I will buy the Oculus RIFT the next day somebody confirms this! (even from E-bay at the ridiculous price).
If that is still true... (Going in the corner and praying...)
eqzitara said:Well, its projected image on screen. Like a big screen but with Rift thats like a lot of wasted space. Like if I were to guess maybe half used pixels?
I can't imagine it was that great I seriously only heard about it for one day.
bo3b said:Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that announcement. Haven't seen anything since regarding that one-liner about game support, but if it's still true, that would save a lot of effort, and make all HelixMod fixes instantly available with a bright and zero ghosting display.
But.. NVidia. I have to assume they lost focus somewhere along the way. Thanks for the reminder though, I'll see if I can find anything relative to the VR ready driver they shipped at Christmas.
------ and in another thread -----
DHR said:Is an idea/suggestion: In a couple of threads we are talking how to add the option of SBS mode and TAB mode. Will be very nice to have that function in 3Dmigoto/Flugan/other. To my mind there are 4 names that will can do this: DSS, bo3b, helifax and you.....i don't think any is working in something like that, but will be amazing to have it.
a couple of things:
- This feature have to be compatible with 3Dmigoto and flugan wrapper
- SBS and TAB have to work in 1080p at least
- This feature have to be compatible with 3DTV Play (VR purposes for 3r party softwares like Trinus VR or future sw that come)
- In some future add some features to tweak FOV and lens distortion (VR purpose)
And don't be sad for help and make some great contributions to the community....THANKS for that!!
Cheers!!
DHR said:
Conan481 said:Also, DHR, do you think that something like SBS at 4k would be doable? That would look amazing for anyone with a 4k TV and I believe would be equivalent for system resources stand point as gaming at 4K in 2D?
Yes, of course is possible.....i try Trine 3 in 4K - TAB mode (downsampled to 1080p), this game have the options already. Due the HDMI 1.4 limit, if i remember well, the game plays at 30fps...if you have a HDMI 2.0 will run at 4K 3D SBS or TAB at 60fps
Flugan said:I know that some VG278H monitors supports SBS which is stated in the manual and if I remember correctly it is when using HDMI. I have had no luck with SBS on my monitor and even then we would be talking half-SBS. My monitor supports dual-link DVI 3D Vision and frame packed HDMI using 3D Vision glasses.
Last time I looked at HDMI 2.0 which is supported by my GTX 980 there was no new frame packed modes added. As far as I know frame packed 3D is the only one that automatically enables 3D on a TV using HDMI. Don't be too picky with details as my experience is limited to monitors only and I don't own a HDMI 2.0 display device.
Being used to 1080p60 per eye makes me wonder how to achieve that on a TV. I'm not talking crazy high resolution interlaced solutions as those are far more demanding than plain old 1080p. I don't think anyone is looking for 2160p60 per eye at this point as the performance is not here mostly.
This image don't cover 3D Vision but we are hooking DirectX and interacting with the game. With 3D Vision automatic the game is not aware of each scene being rendered twice by duplicating rendering calls. As we are fully aware 3D Vision automatic breaks shaders which is where the developer can make them 3D aware or at a later point shaderhackers.
I don't know how it's done but because fraps can record 3D Vision gameplay it should be possible to capture each eye and produce SBS output. There is a massive question if it is possible. Somehow activating 120hz 3D Vision which requires a certified monitor and in the end producing 60hz SBS. It doesn't make any sense as why would I prefer using 60hz SBS on my 120hz 3D Vision monitor. Considering fraps severly impacting the already sensitive performance makes me question the approach further.
I'm currently treating the 3D Vision driver as a black box and if it could output SBS they would already expose it. At times they clearly stated that they would not output SBS as that is a manual 3D mode requiring correct user interaction. One interesting but worthless point is that it's possible to do twitch streaming resulting in SBS video that can be sent to the TV. Not sure how massive the latency will be. framepacked 720p for gaming and 1080p for movies seems to be what HDMI has decided even in 2.0.
I'm open for ideas but feature requests regarding output modes which is pretty much under control of the 3D Vision driver is not something I consider feasable.
I've also been approached to replicate 3D Vision which would bring many options but is clearly beyond the scope of a single guy.
DHR said:@Flugan
I'm not expert on this, but i thing is possible.....Here are some ideas (3DMigoto thread, post #692 onwards):
DarkStarSword said:It should be fairly easy to grab the left and right views out of 3D Vision on the present call and we could then change them to output side-by-side, but we would probably also need to stop 3D Vision from trying to output stereo/anaglyph anyway and I'm not entirely sure how we could do that (I'm more concerned about anaglyph here as it might change the colours even if we make sure that it doesn't draw everything doubled).
You can have both options: half or full SBS / TAB
"half" for HDMI 1.4 and "full" for HDMI 2.0
This is not going to happens from nvidia side, so is up to the community to do it...
Flugan said:I'm still not saying it is easy but 3D Vision works in three ways:
3D Vision Ready
3D Vision Discover
3DTV play
3DTV play is limited to framepacked and can not render 120 frames at 1080p
3D Vision Ready is probably not available when using a TV but obviouosly capable of running 120hz 1080p
3D Vision Discoverer can run 120hz 1080p it can even run 1080p in pivot.
While 3D Vision discoverer seems like the only solution it clearly has problems.
One good thing is that 3D Vision discoverer already works on any display but obviously has filtered colors.
It's not something I would spend any time on considering I have no TV and absolutely no intention in buying one. I really don't think SBS support would be enough to make 3D Vision the optimal solution for VR. I still don't have a confirmation that VR works well while wearing glasses.
As DSS says too much happens inside the driver. From the perspective of the game it renders once but after the 3D Vision driver the render calls are doubled and we have our new render angles. The color changes in anaglyph happens late in the driver. Recording in fraps captures full color images. The output path of 3D Vision happens inside the driver and is pretty hard to change.
One pretty slow scenario would be to render in anaglyph on a 1080p monitor and send the SBS image to the TV. Things are only rendered once but I expect the copy operation to be a FPS killer and I'm not sure if vsync is needed for the TV it might just give some tearing.
I'm still only thinking out loud I don't have any motivation towards SBS rather the opposite because my monitor came from a batch not supporting SBS.
Lastly it is apparent that the driver supports "full-SBS" as frame packed 3D is basically SBS but with some extra data.
Conan481 said:
DHR said:
Conan481 said:Also, DHR, do you think that something like SBS at 4k would be doable? That would look amazing for anyone with a 4k TV and I believe would be equivalent for system resources stand point as gaming at 4K in 2D?
Yes, of course is possible.....i try Trine 3 in 4K - TAB mode (downsampled to 1080p), this game have the options already. Due the HDMI 1.4 limit, if i remember well, the game plays at 30fps...if you have a HDMI 2.0 will run at 4K 3D SBS or TAB at 60fps
I know it's technically possible as I also played Trine 3, but that was because of developer support and nothing to do with Nvidia.
Also, I installed Tridef yesterday and played GTA 5 in 4k SBS and was averaging 47 FPS in 3D. It was only "fake" 3D but whats nice is that there was no CPU 3 core bottleneck while using SBS.
What I was saying was it would be awesome if someone figured out a way to add SBS support for 3D vision, or somehow porting fix to tridef software.
You can buy a 4K 3D TV for under 800 easy. Considering the price of some 3D monitors, I think a 4K 3D TV would be the best overall experience. 4K SBS looks way better then the Rog Swift 1440p and requires less GPU power as well. 4K SBS gives the same performance as 2D 4K.
helifax said:Adding SBS to 3d Vision is actually easier than most expect. The only think we need to do is to "disable" the "3D Vision" rendering Path in the 3D Vision driver, so the driver doesn't change the mode from 2D display to 3D frame alternating. You already see this in quite a few games on my wrapper. Internally the framebuffer is always rendered as SBS.
By saying "easy" I mean that we don't need to hack or capture any stuff from the rendering pipeline. We just need to fool the driver not to SWITCH the 3D Mode of the DISPLAY while the 3D Vision way of functioning is un-touched:)
Flugan said:One question is if the full frame is rendered and squeezed afterwards or somehow rendered squeezed. This clearly impacts performance and from the look of it 3D Vision don't render squeezed in any scenario.
In addition to the possible difficulty I'm anticipating degraded performance.
All the fixes are heavily coupled to nvidia most significant the 3D texture created through NVAPI.
Conan481 said:Just did some more testing with tridef and 4K SBS in REAL 3D does significantly degrade performance in 3D. MY bad. Also Over/Under looks better to my eye as well. Gonna keep messing around with different modes.
...Still 3D vision is superior to tridef.
Flugan said:Helifax, would you mind elaborate further as I imagine you have communicated with the driver to get things working at all. I don't think you can get SBS just by altering DX calls.
I still expect different behavior depending on mode (3D Ready, TV, Discoverer)
If I'm not mistaken Discoverer can run at speeds faster than 60hz per eye. I have not confirmed this.
If there is a simple way to enable SBS including full-SBS then why not.
I'm not aware how much the driver can be controlled but my initial fear is if we end up disabling 3D Vision automatic in the process.
helifax said:This needs a lot more testing but what I discovered during my wrapper development:
- Create DX9 context -> Check
- Create 3D Textures for left/right eye and insert NVIDIA 3D Vision FLAG/HEADER ->Check
=> Result: You get SBS in a DX9 Windows, but 3D Vision is disabled! (Emitter doesn't start, Monitor(s) is in 2D)
- Alter/Create a Profile for the App (add some of the 3D Known flags) -> 3D Vision driver picks the profile and "enables" the 3D Vision emitter + Monitor mode to 3D.
So, what I am thinking is modifying the last part! (Alter the profile or PREVENT the driver to kick in 3D Vision Mode). The result will be a SBS image! Now this needs more testing and stuff and NVAPI hooking;) We shouldn't modify any of the DX calls or functions.
This will result in the App/Game/Driver thinking is rendering for 3D Vision but WE modify HOW the L/R images are presented;) Instead of alternating between L & R we present them BOTH at once;)
Now, it might not work like this by default! In which case we could HOOK and create OUR own DX/11 Context and PRESENT the L/R images in it. The nvidia driver will have everything setup for 3D Vision rendering by default;)
OFC this will only work if you have a 3D Vision capable hardware...
The only other method is to code the wrapper from scratch (like I did for OpenGL) which means we need to handle the Automatic Stereorization and FBO + Draw Calls duplications, etc...
I would start with the FIRST method though... and see if we can get that one working!
This is at least MY idea;) Like I said, we need to do some testing;) and currently my time is a bit short, but I will pursue this at some point as I am really interested to find out if it works (like I believe it will) ^_^.
DarkStarSword said:
helifax said:=> Result: You get SBS in a DX9 Windows, but 3D Vision is disabled! (Emitter doesn't start, Monitor(s) is in 2D)
But, isn't that because you literally just handed DX a side by side image? The scenario is easier for your wrapper as you create the stereo images yourself and only use 3D Vision for the output, whereas in DX games we depend on it to create the 3D images in the first place, and I'm not certain you can disable the 3D Vision output without also disabling that.
I added a feature to 3DMigoto a while back that can extract the left + right views from 3DVision easily enough converting them to side by side (I use this to improve the accuracy of my auto HUD shaders and to flip stereo inverted mirrors in MGSVTPP around the right way). I haven't tried, but getting the output to display SBS might be as simple as:
[Present]
o0 = stereo2mono o0
It's probably not quite that simple (and that won't restore the original o0 - I'll need to add a post command list to Present to handle that), but as of a couple of versions ago 3DMigoto supports injecting custom shaders, so as long as the rest of the pipeline state is usable it should be relatively straight forward to inject a shader to change the SBS result of stereo2mono to half packed SBS or TAB, optionally reversed.
But all that will all only work if 3D Vision is creating both stereo views, otherwise you will just get 2x mono images, and I'm not aware of any way to force that if 3D Vision isn't being used for the output as well. If we were creating both views ourselves it would be a completely different matter - I'm not discounting that possibility, but it will require a considerable amount of engineering effort to get working, especially if we don't want to break compatibility with existing fixes that knowingly or unknowingly rely on driver heuristics that we would have to replicate.
Discover mode seems like the best bet to prevent this being tied to a 3D Vision compatible monitor/TV. Getting full colour left/right views is not a problem while using anaglyph, the only problem we have to solve is how to output it in full colour. We can potentially still use the Discover output if the anaglyph mode they are using doesn't damage the colours too much if we only output mono (depends on which type of anaglyph they are using - can't test right now, installing Win10 on a 2nd HDD...). If it does damage the colours too much it's still potentially usable if we create a 2nd window that isn't using 3D Vision and output to that instead.
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
you missed one...
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/496647/3d-vision/3dtv-play-in-side-by-side-mode-will-nvidia-considering-adding-sbs-/post/3554248/
[quote="andrewf@nvidia"]
[color="green"]Hi
There is a lot of misinformation on this forum I really want to clear it up.
First, many people are claims on these forums that I said we will never do these features, it will kill 3D Vision business, etc etc.
If you have read my forum posts you will see I do agree that adding these modes make sense. We are committed to added support for both checkerboard and side/side modes in future drivers.
Second, to answer your question about why its take so long - because we have a lot of features to deliver. If you read these forums there are a lot of features our users want and we have a priority list to get them all added. This will get added, its just taking time.
I do understand that many of you are frustrated and want it now and we will do everything we can to get it to you as quickly as we possibly can.
And to answer some users questions, yes I do read these forums I just cant read and respond to each thread as much I would like.[/quote][/color]
:)
There is a lot of misinformation on this forum I really want to clear it up.
First, many people are claims on these forums that I said we will never do these features, it will kill 3D Vision business, etc etc.
If you have read my forum posts you will see I do agree that adding these modes make sense. We are committed to added support for both checkerboard and side/side modes in future drivers.
Second, to answer your question about why its take so long - because we have a lot of features to deliver. If you read these forums there are a lot of features our users want and we have a priority list to get them all added. This will get added, its just taking time.
I do understand that many of you are frustrated and want it now and we will do everything we can to get it to you as quickly as we possibly can.
And to answer some users questions, yes I do read these forums I just cant read and respond to each thread as much I would like.
@D-Man11
Are you trying to make a joke?
That response is from 2011 and Andrew used to work on 3D Vision before moving to Shield I believe.
When Andrew disappeared so did the green posts in this forum for the most part.
The driver section of the forum get regular green traffic last time I checked.
As a sidenote I only have a single 3D monitor capable of HDMI 3D input due to the built-in emitter.
I thought it would be interesting to run 720p60hz at 1:1 scaling resulting in pretty massive black bars. I've done that in 2D on a different monitor to get the sharpest picture for 720p console games.
Unfortunatelly this monitor lacks 1:1 scaling. My 2D dell has 1:1 and lots of other features and my older 3D Vision monitor which is a Benq XL2410T has loads of scaling options although I can't remember if 1:1 is one of them. While being 3D it is limited to 3D Vision and can't display 3D through HDMI making it impossible to do 3DTV Play 720p at 1:1 using my setup.
All recent TV panels are either Full HD or Ultra HD which requires scaling when playing with a non-native resolution such as 720p. The 720p standard is pretty bad as there are almost zero 720p panels as most HD panels that is not 1080p native is actually 1280x768 so nothing is displayed at native resolution. I'm obviously not using 720p60 unless I play 3D games on a console but a point that has often been made is that 720p60 pushes about the same number of pixels as side-by-side, top-bottom and checkerboard and the main difference when it comes to quality is how it looks after being scaled to native. SBS and TB can really mess up fine detail such as small text and CB is not immune either.
From my perspective only full-SBS 1080p at 60hz would be an improvement. The HDMI 2.0 standard seems to be restricted reading for members and I'm having trouble finding a complete listing of supported resolutions. I just checked the manual of a random Ultra HD 3DTV and it only appears to support framepacked as well as half-SBS and TB.
Obviously half-SBS at 4K is a lot better than 720p60 but I don't see how we can get 3D Vision to render the image stretched avoiding the overhead of rendering fullframe twice. Neither HDMI 2.0 or dual-link DVI has enough bandwidth to support fullframe 3D at 4K so actually getting it to render at all is a feat which seems to have already been achieved with EDID and designed for geforce interlaced which apparently already has succeeded with the expected performance hit.
This brings me back to the default 1080p60 which for most users is both native and what has been used for a very long time. While I have not been around since the beginning jumping on the 3D wagon 2011-03-04 with a monitor, two pairs of glasses and a Fujifilm 3D camera. The combination of running at native resolution and 60hz per eye makes it pretty ideal and as monitors go my newer 27" 1080p with built-in emitter is hard to beat. I do believe 1080p being a native resolution is a performance sweet spot. The ability to push basically half the amount of pixels at native resolution using a 720p projector obviously increases performance and brings the other 3D benefits of using a projector being able to be much further from the screen enhancing the 3D effect while still having a massive image.
@D-Man11
Are you trying to make a joke?
That response is from 2011 and Andrew used to work on 3D Vision before moving to Shield I believe.
When Andrew disappeared so did the green posts in this forum for the most part.
The driver section of the forum get regular green traffic last time I checked.
As a sidenote I only have a single 3D monitor capable of HDMI 3D input due to the built-in emitter.
I thought it would be interesting to run 720p60hz at 1:1 scaling resulting in pretty massive black bars. I've done that in 2D on a different monitor to get the sharpest picture for 720p console games.
Unfortunatelly this monitor lacks 1:1 scaling. My 2D dell has 1:1 and lots of other features and my older 3D Vision monitor which is a Benq XL2410T has loads of scaling options although I can't remember if 1:1 is one of them. While being 3D it is limited to 3D Vision and can't display 3D through HDMI making it impossible to do 3DTV Play 720p at 1:1 using my setup.
All recent TV panels are either Full HD or Ultra HD which requires scaling when playing with a non-native resolution such as 720p. The 720p standard is pretty bad as there are almost zero 720p panels as most HD panels that is not 1080p native is actually 1280x768 so nothing is displayed at native resolution. I'm obviously not using 720p60 unless I play 3D games on a console but a point that has often been made is that 720p60 pushes about the same number of pixels as side-by-side, top-bottom and checkerboard and the main difference when it comes to quality is how it looks after being scaled to native. SBS and TB can really mess up fine detail such as small text and CB is not immune either.
From my perspective only full-SBS 1080p at 60hz would be an improvement. The HDMI 2.0 standard seems to be restricted reading for members and I'm having trouble finding a complete listing of supported resolutions. I just checked the manual of a random Ultra HD 3DTV and it only appears to support framepacked as well as half-SBS and TB.
Obviously half-SBS at 4K is a lot better than 720p60 but I don't see how we can get 3D Vision to render the image stretched avoiding the overhead of rendering fullframe twice. Neither HDMI 2.0 or dual-link DVI has enough bandwidth to support fullframe 3D at 4K so actually getting it to render at all is a feat which seems to have already been achieved with EDID and designed for geforce interlaced which apparently already has succeeded with the expected performance hit.
This brings me back to the default 1080p60 which for most users is both native and what has been used for a very long time. While I have not been around since the beginning jumping on the 3D wagon 2011-03-04 with a monitor, two pairs of glasses and a Fujifilm 3D camera. The combination of running at native resolution and 60hz per eye makes it pretty ideal and as monitors go my newer 27" 1080p with built-in emitter is hard to beat. I do believe 1080p being a native resolution is a performance sweet spot. The ability to push basically half the amount of pixels at native resolution using a 720p projector obviously increases performance and brings the other 3D benefits of using a projector being able to be much further from the screen enhancing the 3D effect while still having a massive image.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
[quote="zig11727"]
Does your TV support Pixel Mode ? If so you reverse the eye pattern and can use HDMI checkerboard.[/quote]
I have tried using EDID with no luck. If I'm not mistaken, HDMI checkerboard is supposed to work only on passive 3D TVs?
Mine is active.
As far as I remember checkerboard was only supported on DLP HDTV
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-displays.html
Select DLP HDTV in the dropdown
As you can see all of them are pretty huge Mitsubishi which were never sold in europé.
As the driver supports checkerboard it is possible to use on other displays supporting checkerboard if you can get the driver to play ball.
Just like with interlaced the driver needs to recognise the connected display.
Only time the driver doesn't care about what display is at the other end is when using 3DTV Play as all HDMI 1.4a displays are supported using frame packed 3D. This excludes most monitors that are not 3D Vision ready or interlaced and optimized for Geforce. Monitors that support frame packed 3D are very rare. VG278H, VG278HR(not confirmed), XL2420XT(not sold in europe, not confirmed)
As you can see all of them are pretty huge Mitsubishi which were never sold in europé.
As the driver supports checkerboard it is possible to use on other displays supporting checkerboard if you can get the driver to play ball.
Just like with interlaced the driver needs to recognise the connected display.
Only time the driver doesn't care about what display is at the other end is when using 3DTV Play as all HDMI 1.4a displays are supported using frame packed 3D. This excludes most monitors that are not 3D Vision ready or interlaced and optimized for Geforce. Monitors that support frame packed 3D are very rare. VG278H, VG278HR(not confirmed), XL2420XT(not sold in europe, not confirmed)
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
meh...whatever......
I'm not joking, it seems they were.
As you can clearly see, they didn't see it as a problem, they just never implemented it as promised.
Also, how about you go back and look to see how long it took them to implement Checkerboard for 3DTV Play after he said that. At least they did do it....eventually. With pressure from the community.
Going forward when we all ditch W7 for W10 and dx12, we should ditch Nvidia and use/support something else that does not impose artificial restrictions on choice.
We should be able to choose whatever format, resolution, refresh rate or display that best suits "our needs"
For years Nvidia has fucked 3DTV Play users by only offering 24Hz at 1080P. The same for Passive TV owners that do not receive official line interleaved support but must use an unofficial work around.
They've also screwed projector owners that have 1280x800 native resolutions for Frame Sequential, if you try to use it, you get a red overlay warning. You're restricted to 1280x720 without hacks.
TriDef allows you to use any format, resolution, refresh rate or display that you choose. There is no reason that Nvidia can not do the same.Other than the fact that they do not want to and do not care. We all know that developers are responsible for games not being 3D compatible. But Nvidia is 100% responsible for the hardware/driver side. If Nvidia would offer the same un-restricted support, this rant would be baseless.
Did you catch that custumer feedback today, where the poster says that he was told that Nvidia still imposes their 32 inch and above restriction for 3DTV Play? What a joke.
Yah...Nvidia is going to support VR. Most likely half assed....
and let's not mention the list of 3D Vision problems
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/847809/
But it is what it is...so we should consider ourselves lucky that we've got what we've got.
Nvidia support aside, hats off to all of our community members that make it as great as it is.
As you can clearly see, they didn't see it as a problem, they just never implemented it as promised.
Also, how about you go back and look to see how long it took them to implement Checkerboard for 3DTV Play after he said that. At least they did do it....eventually. With pressure from the community.
Going forward when we all ditch W7 for W10 and dx12, we should ditch Nvidia and use/support something else that does not impose artificial restrictions on choice.
We should be able to choose whatever format, resolution, refresh rate or display that best suits "our needs"
For years Nvidia has fucked 3DTV Play users by only offering 24Hz at 1080P. The same for Passive TV owners that do not receive official line interleaved support but must use an unofficial work around.
They've also screwed projector owners that have 1280x800 native resolutions for Frame Sequential, if you try to use it, you get a red overlay warning. You're restricted to 1280x720 without hacks.
TriDef allows you to use any format, resolution, refresh rate or display that you choose. There is no reason that Nvidia can not do the same.Other than the fact that they do not want to and do not care. We all know that developers are responsible for games not being 3D compatible. But Nvidia is 100% responsible for the hardware/driver side. If Nvidia would offer the same un-restricted support, this rant would be baseless.
Did you catch that custumer feedback today, where the poster says that he was told that Nvidia still imposes their 32 inch and above restriction for 3DTV Play? What a joke.
Yah...Nvidia is going to support VR. Most likely half assed....
Sorry but what 32" limitation on 3DTV Play it works perfectly on my 27" monitor by default. I might be cheating using an ASUS VG278H but I'm clearly using 3DTV Play and there is no such limit. If there is a limit or a blacklist/whitelist can be argued but if your point is that playstation displays don't work they are clearly blacklisted one way or the other. Not sure it applies around where I live but I read some playstation displays were dumped on the market dirt cheap.
There was also a lot of talk when samsung made a beautiful high framerate monitor without 3D Vision support but I don't think that supported HDMI 3D. My guess is that it supported tridef.
Sorry but what 32" limitation on 3DTV Play it works perfectly on my 27" monitor by default. I might be cheating using an ASUS VG278H but I'm clearly using 3DTV Play and there is no such limit. If there is a limit or a blacklist/whitelist can be argued but if your point is that playstation displays don't work they are clearly blacklisted one way or the other. Not sure it applies around where I live but I read some playstation displays were dumped on the market dirt cheap.
There was also a lot of talk when samsung made a beautiful high framerate monitor without 3D Vision support but I don't think that supported HDMI 3D. My guess is that it supported tridef.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
UMM, that's a "certified" display". Nvidia can manually add the EDID to support displays under the 32 inch limit. Like they did with the Sony HMZ-T1
And yes there is a limit, there was an "official" post in these forums several years ago.
I wasn't sure if it was still being implemented/enforced until that user post today.
[quote="Flugan"]The HDMI 2.0 standard seems to be restricted reading for members[/quote]A bit off topic, but I despise how standards bodies tend to do that. Some of them I have access through my work (not sure if HDMI is among them), but as a hobbyist that can be really prohibitive.
Flugan said:The HDMI 2.0 standard seems to be restricted reading for members
A bit off topic, but I despise how standards bodies tend to do that. Some of them I have access through my work (not sure if HDMI is among them), but as a hobbyist that can be really prohibitive.
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
The problem is I remember seeing a fairly thorough list of modes specifically taking note that no new frame packaging 3D modes had arrived. I don't remember the rest of the list at the top of my head and I definitely can't find it. I really want to know if there really is a full-SBS 1080p 60hz resolution. It sounds like a really strange resolution to support on a 1080p 3DTV with HDMI 2.0.
If the only thing people want is half-SBS I question the motive as any sub native solution will just about tradeoff. 720p, half-SBS, top-bottom and checkerboard all have about half the pixels per eye. You could argue 1080p30 but it's not really for gaming with such low fps.
As I see it currently it could involve a massive task in the worst case. Some things might be simple although I kind of treat the 3D Vision driver as a black box so far. I think getting everything to work according to plan will be the last 10% taking 90% of the time.
If it's not about bringing 1080p60 to HDMI 2.0 then I guess it's more in line with VR support but regarding VR I would rather want them to materialize to see if 3D Vision can even interact with the devices.
4K 3D is impossible due to bandwidth as far as I can tell and I don't think we have the performance to do half-4K 3D as it would probably involve rendering full-4K 3D which would be a massive performance killer.
The problem is I remember seeing a fairly thorough list of modes specifically taking note that no new frame packaging 3D modes had arrived. I don't remember the rest of the list at the top of my head and I definitely can't find it. I really want to know if there really is a full-SBS 1080p 60hz resolution. It sounds like a really strange resolution to support on a 1080p 3DTV with HDMI 2.0.
If the only thing people want is half-SBS I question the motive as any sub native solution will just about tradeoff. 720p, half-SBS, top-bottom and checkerboard all have about half the pixels per eye. You could argue 1080p30 but it's not really for gaming with such low fps.
As I see it currently it could involve a massive task in the worst case. Some things might be simple although I kind of treat the 3D Vision driver as a black box so far. I think getting everything to work according to plan will be the last 10% taking 90% of the time.
If it's not about bringing 1080p60 to HDMI 2.0 then I guess it's more in line with VR support but regarding VR I would rather want them to materialize to see if 3D Vision can even interact with the devices.
4K 3D is impossible due to bandwidth as far as I can tell and I don't think we have the performance to do half-4K 3D as it would probably involve rendering full-4K 3D which would be a massive performance killer.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
[quote="Flugan"]As far as I remember checkerboard was only supported on DLP HDTV
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-displays.html
Select DLP HDTV in the dropdown
As you can see all of them are pretty huge Mitsubishi which were never sold in europé.
As the driver supports checkerboard it is possible to use on other displays supporting checkerboard if you can get the driver to play ball.
Just like with interlaced the driver needs to recognise the connected display.
Only time the driver doesn't care about what display is at the other end is when using 3DTV Play as all HDMI 1.4a displays are supported using frame packed 3D. This excludes most monitors that are not 3D Vision ready or interlaced and optimized for Geforce. Monitors that support frame packed 3D are very rare. VG278H, VG278HR(not confirmed), XL2420XT(not sold in europe, not confirmed)[/quote]
3DTV Play supports Checkerboard and is posted as such quite often, a quick forum search would have shown this.
@costiq
There's a good chance that your UE55H8000 supports checkerboard, you need to search your owner's manual. If it does, you'll find that Samsung calls it "pixel mode", simply follow the steps listed.
It will not require an EDID override unless you are stealing 3DTV Play.
As you can see all of them are pretty huge Mitsubishi which were never sold in europé.
As the driver supports checkerboard it is possible to use on other displays supporting checkerboard if you can get the driver to play ball.
Just like with interlaced the driver needs to recognise the connected display.
Only time the driver doesn't care about what display is at the other end is when using 3DTV Play as all HDMI 1.4a displays are supported using frame packed 3D. This excludes most monitors that are not 3D Vision ready or interlaced and optimized for Geforce. Monitors that support frame packed 3D are very rare. VG278H, VG278HR(not confirmed), XL2420XT(not sold in europe, not confirmed)
3DTV Play supports Checkerboard and is posted as such quite often, a quick forum search would have shown this.
@costiq
There's a good chance that your UE55H8000 supports checkerboard, you need to search your owner's manual. If it does, you'll find that Samsung calls it "pixel mode", simply follow the steps listed.
It will not require an EDID override unless you are stealing 3DTV Play.
I am personally not that interested as full frame 1080p at 60hz is good enough for me.
There were some ideas and interesting points in the original thread but it was derailing the original topic.
I'm starting this thread to see if there is any interest as well as more ideas how this could be achieved.
My brain is currently empty of ideas and any solution needs to produce the required result and not fail after being 90% done. Some promising ideas will most likely not pan out and wont work in the end.
Having the conversation split across multiple threads is not ideal but I don't know what to do about it.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
I would have been happy to help, if the part of my brain responsible for "mathematical" thinking wouldn't have been completely neglected so long time ago. :(
The reason why I personally (and I'm sure many other people with TVs instead of monitors) would be interested in such a solution, is to have the opportunity to run games in 1080p at 60Hz on a big screen TV.
Until recently, I was OK with playing the games at 24Hz but then, with Mad Max, I saw what a difference can make a game played at 60Hz. Unfortunately, with the actual 3D vision, on a TV you can have 60Hz only for a 720p resolution which, on a big screen, forces you to pay too much attention at counting the pixels... ;)
Another good use of having 3D SBS, would be the chance to stream the fixed 3D games to the mobile phone and experience them with a VR device.
Overclocked Intel® Core™i5-4690k Quad Core
32 Gb RAM
8GB GEFORCE GTX 1080
3D Vision 2
Windows 10 64 Bit
NVidia driver 419.17
SAMSUNG - UE55H8000 Smart 3D 55" Curved
Philips G-Sync 272G
Oculus Rift with Touch controlers
Does your TV support Pixel Mode ? If so you reverse the eye pattern and can use HDMI checkerboard.
Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 32GB Ram i9-9900K GigaByte Aorus Extreme Gaming 2080TI (single) Game Blaster Z Windows 10 X64 build #17763.195 Define R6 Blackout Case Corsair H110i GTX Sandisk 1TB (OS) SanDisk 2TB SSD (Games) Seagate EXOs 8 and 12 TB drives Samsung UN46c7000 HD TV Samsung UN55HU9000 UHD TVCurrently using ACER PASSIVE EDID override on 3D TVs LG 55
Please do not quote this post in it's entirety
------ and in another thread -----
------ and in another thread -----
2x Geforce GTX 980 in SLI provided by NVIDIA, i7 6700K 4GHz CPU, Asus 27" VG278HE 144Hz 3D Monitor, BenQ W1070 3D Projector, 120" Elite Screens YardMaster 2, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3200MHz RAM, Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD, 4x750GB HDD in RAID5, Gigabyte Z170X-Gaming 7 Motherboard, Corsair Obsidian 750D Airflow Edition Case, Corsair RM850i PSU, HTC Vive, Win 10 64bit
Alienware M17x R4 w/ built in 3D, Intel i7 3740QM, GTX 680m 2GB, 16GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM, Win7 64bit, 1TB SSD, 1TB HDD, 750GB HDD
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https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/496647/3d-vision/3dtv-play-in-side-by-side-mode-will-nvidia-considering-adding-sbs-/post/3554248/
:)
My eyes almost popped out when I saw this. After clicking the link I realized it was almost 5 years ago.
Intel i7 8086K
Gigabyte GTX 1080Ti Aorus Extreme
DDR4 2x8gb 3200mhz Cl14
TV LG OLED65E6V
Avegant Glyph
Windows 10 64bits
Are you trying to make a joke?
That response is from 2011 and Andrew used to work on 3D Vision before moving to Shield I believe.
When Andrew disappeared so did the green posts in this forum for the most part.
The driver section of the forum get regular green traffic last time I checked.
As a sidenote I only have a single 3D monitor capable of HDMI 3D input due to the built-in emitter.
I thought it would be interesting to run 720p60hz at 1:1 scaling resulting in pretty massive black bars. I've done that in 2D on a different monitor to get the sharpest picture for 720p console games.
Unfortunatelly this monitor lacks 1:1 scaling. My 2D dell has 1:1 and lots of other features and my older 3D Vision monitor which is a Benq XL2410T has loads of scaling options although I can't remember if 1:1 is one of them. While being 3D it is limited to 3D Vision and can't display 3D through HDMI making it impossible to do 3DTV Play 720p at 1:1 using my setup.
All recent TV panels are either Full HD or Ultra HD which requires scaling when playing with a non-native resolution such as 720p. The 720p standard is pretty bad as there are almost zero 720p panels as most HD panels that is not 1080p native is actually 1280x768 so nothing is displayed at native resolution. I'm obviously not using 720p60 unless I play 3D games on a console but a point that has often been made is that 720p60 pushes about the same number of pixels as side-by-side, top-bottom and checkerboard and the main difference when it comes to quality is how it looks after being scaled to native. SBS and TB can really mess up fine detail such as small text and CB is not immune either.
From my perspective only full-SBS 1080p at 60hz would be an improvement. The HDMI 2.0 standard seems to be restricted reading for members and I'm having trouble finding a complete listing of supported resolutions. I just checked the manual of a random Ultra HD 3DTV and it only appears to support framepacked as well as half-SBS and TB.
Obviously half-SBS at 4K is a lot better than 720p60 but I don't see how we can get 3D Vision to render the image stretched avoiding the overhead of rendering fullframe twice. Neither HDMI 2.0 or dual-link DVI has enough bandwidth to support fullframe 3D at 4K so actually getting it to render at all is a feat which seems to have already been achieved with EDID and designed for geforce interlaced which apparently already has succeeded with the expected performance hit.
This brings me back to the default 1080p60 which for most users is both native and what has been used for a very long time. While I have not been around since the beginning jumping on the 3D wagon 2011-03-04 with a monitor, two pairs of glasses and a Fujifilm 3D camera. The combination of running at native resolution and 60hz per eye makes it pretty ideal and as monitors go my newer 27" 1080p with built-in emitter is hard to beat. I do believe 1080p being a native resolution is a performance sweet spot. The ability to push basically half the amount of pixels at native resolution using a 720p projector obviously increases performance and brings the other 3D benefits of using a projector being able to be much further from the screen enhancing the 3D effect while still having a massive image.
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I have tried using EDID with no luck. If I'm not mistaken, HDMI checkerboard is supposed to work only on passive 3D TVs?
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http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d-vision-displays.html
Select DLP HDTV in the dropdown
As you can see all of them are pretty huge Mitsubishi which were never sold in europé.
As the driver supports checkerboard it is possible to use on other displays supporting checkerboard if you can get the driver to play ball.
Just like with interlaced the driver needs to recognise the connected display.
Only time the driver doesn't care about what display is at the other end is when using 3DTV Play as all HDMI 1.4a displays are supported using frame packed 3D. This excludes most monitors that are not 3D Vision ready or interlaced and optimized for Geforce. Monitors that support frame packed 3D are very rare. VG278H, VG278HR(not confirmed), XL2420XT(not sold in europe, not confirmed)
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I'm not joking, it seems they were.
As you can clearly see, they didn't see it as a problem, they just never implemented it as promised.
Also, how about you go back and look to see how long it took them to implement Checkerboard for 3DTV Play after he said that. At least they did do it....eventually. With pressure from the community.
Going forward when we all ditch W7 for W10 and dx12, we should ditch Nvidia and use/support something else that does not impose artificial restrictions on choice.
We should be able to choose whatever format, resolution, refresh rate or display that best suits "our needs"
For years Nvidia has fucked 3DTV Play users by only offering 24Hz at 1080P. The same for Passive TV owners that do not receive official line interleaved support but must use an unofficial work around.
They've also screwed projector owners that have 1280x800 native resolutions for Frame Sequential, if you try to use it, you get a red overlay warning. You're restricted to 1280x720 without hacks.
TriDef allows you to use any format, resolution, refresh rate or display that you choose. There is no reason that Nvidia can not do the same.Other than the fact that they do not want to and do not care. We all know that developers are responsible for games not being 3D compatible. But Nvidia is 100% responsible for the hardware/driver side. If Nvidia would offer the same un-restricted support, this rant would be baseless.
Did you catch that custumer feedback today, where the poster says that he was told that Nvidia still imposes their 32 inch and above restriction for 3DTV Play? What a joke.
Yah...Nvidia is going to support VR. Most likely half assed....
and let's not mention the list of 3D Vision problems
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/847809/
But it is what it is...so we should consider ourselves lucky that we've got what we've got.
Nvidia support aside, hats off to all of our community members that make it as great as it is.
There was also a lot of talk when samsung made a beautiful high framerate monitor without 3D Vision support but I don't think that supported HDMI 3D. My guess is that it supported tridef.
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And yes there is a limit, there was an "official" post in these forums several years ago.
I wasn't sure if it was still being implemented/enforced until that user post today.
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If the only thing people want is half-SBS I question the motive as any sub native solution will just about tradeoff. 720p, half-SBS, top-bottom and checkerboard all have about half the pixels per eye. You could argue 1080p30 but it's not really for gaming with such low fps.
As I see it currently it could involve a massive task in the worst case. Some things might be simple although I kind of treat the 3D Vision driver as a black box so far. I think getting everything to work according to plan will be the last 10% taking 90% of the time.
If it's not about bringing 1080p60 to HDMI 2.0 then I guess it's more in line with VR support but regarding VR I would rather want them to materialize to see if 3D Vision can even interact with the devices.
4K 3D is impossible due to bandwidth as far as I can tell and I don't think we have the performance to do half-4K 3D as it would probably involve rendering full-4K 3D which would be a massive performance killer.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
3DTV Play supports Checkerboard and is posted as such quite often, a quick forum search would have shown this.
@costiq
There's a good chance that your UE55H8000 supports checkerboard, you need to search your owner's manual. If it does, you'll find that Samsung calls it "pixel mode", simply follow the steps listed.
It will not require an EDID override unless you are stealing 3DTV Play.