Explain why 3DTV Play diff 3D Vision for res and refresh
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Hello,

I would like a Nvidia support person to explain why there is a difference in supported resolutions and refresh rates with 3DTV Play in contrast to 3D Vision?

Why are all the resolutions, refresh rates, and surround modes not equally supported in the 3DTV Play product in contrast to 3D Vision?

Are you working on fixing this to the customers that bought 3DTV Play and your video cards.

Thanks
Hello,



I would like a Nvidia support person to explain why there is a difference in supported resolutions and refresh rates with 3DTV Play in contrast to 3D Vision?



Why are all the resolutions, refresh rates, and surround modes not equally supported in the 3DTV Play product in contrast to 3D Vision?



Are you working on fixing this to the customers that bought 3DTV Play and your video cards.



Thanks

#1
Posted 08/24/2011 04:43 PM   
[quote name='valcan_s' date='24 August 2011 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1314204199' post='1283702']
Hello,

I would like a Nvidia support person to explain why there is a difference in supported resolutions and refresh rates with 3DTV Play in contrast to 3D Vision?

Why are all the resolutions, refresh rates, and surround modes not equally supported in the 3DTV Play product in contrast to 3D Vision?

Are you working on fixing this to the customers that bought 3DTV Play and your video cards.

Thanks
[/quote]
3D Vision was created in 2009 when the defacto standard was HDMI1.3 which carries the checkerboard 3D mode flag. 3DTV play was created in 2010 after a critical change was made to HDMI1.4, the 3D flag was changed to framepacking. Nvidia's design goal has always been "no user intervention", so only the auto 3D modes are supported. Had 3D Vision been created in 2010 after HDMI1.4, there would be only framepacking in all nvidia's 3D software.
[quote name='valcan_s' date='24 August 2011 - 10:43 AM' timestamp='1314204199' post='1283702']

Hello,



I would like a Nvidia support person to explain why there is a difference in supported resolutions and refresh rates with 3DTV Play in contrast to 3D Vision?



Why are all the resolutions, refresh rates, and surround modes not equally supported in the 3DTV Play product in contrast to 3D Vision?



Are you working on fixing this to the customers that bought 3DTV Play and your video cards.



Thanks



3D Vision was created in 2009 when the defacto standard was HDMI1.3 which carries the checkerboard 3D mode flag. 3DTV play was created in 2010 after a critical change was made to HDMI1.4, the 3D flag was changed to framepacking. Nvidia's design goal has always been "no user intervention", so only the auto 3D modes are supported. Had 3D Vision been created in 2010 after HDMI1.4, there would be only framepacking in all nvidia's 3D software.

#2
Posted 08/24/2011 07:49 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='24 August 2011 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1314215346' post='1283779']
3D Vision was created in 2009 when the defacto standard was HDMI1.3 which carries the checkerboard 3D mode flag. 3DTV play was created in 2010 after a critical change was made to HDMI1.4, the 3D flag was changed to framepacking. Nvidia's design goal has always been "no user intervention", so only the auto 3D modes are supported. Had 3D Vision been created in 2010 after HDMI1.4, there would be only framepacking in all nvidia's 3D software.
[/quote]

I follow you 100% and this info adds more salt to the wound I am exposing, having said the above why is 3DTV Play worse than 3D Vision if its a newer tech as you have pointed out? Yet 3D Visions supports a higher refresh rate, higher rez with refresh rate and 3D surround and the newer 3DTV Play does not?
[quote name='roller11' date='24 August 2011 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1314215346' post='1283779']

3D Vision was created in 2009 when the defacto standard was HDMI1.3 which carries the checkerboard 3D mode flag. 3DTV play was created in 2010 after a critical change was made to HDMI1.4, the 3D flag was changed to framepacking. Nvidia's design goal has always been "no user intervention", so only the auto 3D modes are supported. Had 3D Vision been created in 2010 after HDMI1.4, there would be only framepacking in all nvidia's 3D software.





I follow you 100% and this info adds more salt to the wound I am exposing, having said the above why is 3DTV Play worse than 3D Vision if its a newer tech as you have pointed out? Yet 3D Visions supports a higher refresh rate, higher rez with refresh rate and 3D surround and the newer 3DTV Play does not?

#3
Posted 08/24/2011 08:23 PM   
3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.

3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.
3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.



3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.

#4
Posted 08/24/2011 10:04 PM   
[quote name='valcan_s' date='24 August 2011 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1314217395' post='1283787']
why is 3DTV Play worse than 3D Vision if its a newer tech as you have pointed out? [/quote]
Because 3DTVs are optimized for broadcast TV and not for computer monitors. New tech HDMI1.4 is inferior to old tech dual link DVI, but only if you use the 3DTV as a computer monitor for 3D gaming. For everything else, HDMI1.4 is perfectly adequate. So the TV makers would not agree that HDMI1.4 is inferior to dual link DVI that pre dates HDMI1.4 because PC 3D gaming is never done on a 3DTV. At least that's their mindset.
[quote name='valcan_s' date='24 August 2011 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1314217395' post='1283787']

why is 3DTV Play worse than 3D Vision if its a newer tech as you have pointed out?

Because 3DTVs are optimized for broadcast TV and not for computer monitors. New tech HDMI1.4 is inferior to old tech dual link DVI, but only if you use the 3DTV as a computer monitor for 3D gaming. For everything else, HDMI1.4 is perfectly adequate. So the TV makers would not agree that HDMI1.4 is inferior to dual link DVI that pre dates HDMI1.4 because PC 3D gaming is never done on a 3DTV. At least that's their mindset.

#5
Posted 08/25/2011 12:29 AM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']
3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.

3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.
[/quote]

I think only Samsungs and DLP's support checkerboard. Sony and Sharp LCD's don't, i can tell you that. Only sbs and t/b.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']

3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.



3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.





I think only Samsungs and DLP's support checkerboard. Sony and Sharp LCD's don't, i can tell you that. Only sbs and t/b.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#6
Posted 08/25/2011 01:05 AM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']
3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.

3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.
[/quote]

But you are aware that 1280x720 looks bad on almost all 3dtv because is not their native resolution? Why no let the player choose the resolution/hz they want? For better quality people will always look for the native resolution of the panel and give the option to select 1360x768 or 1024x768 for example could increase the picture quality of the game in some panels, this is just for frame packing, giving the option also for side by side will help to achieve 1080p native resolution too.

I have installed three drivers for S3D atm in my computer on two S.O. and i get the worse results with 3dplay just because im stuck to what this software thinks its best for me instead of let me choose what i really want.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']

3D Vision Monitors support up to 120Hz at 1920x1080.



3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.





But you are aware that 1280x720 looks bad on almost all 3dtv because is not their native resolution? Why no let the player choose the resolution/hz they want? For better quality people will always look for the native resolution of the panel and give the option to select 1360x768 or 1024x768 for example could increase the picture quality of the game in some panels, this is just for frame packing, giving the option also for side by side will help to achieve 1080p native resolution too.



I have installed three drivers for S3D atm in my computer on two S.O. and i get the worse results with 3dplay just because im stuck to what this software thinks its best for me instead of let me choose what i really want.

#7
Posted 08/26/2011 07:36 AM   
[quote name='Jude' date='26 August 2011 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1314344188' post='1284439']
But you are aware that 1280x720 looks bad on almost all 3dtv because is not their native resolution? Why no let the player choose the resolution/hz they want? For better quality people will always look for the native resolution of the panel and give the option to select 1360x768 or 1024x768 for example could increase the picture quality of the game in some panels, this is just for frame packing, giving the option also for side by side will help to achieve 1080p native resolution too.

I have installed three drivers for S3D atm in my computer on two S.O. and i get the worse results with 3dplay just because im stuck to what this software thinks its best for me instead of let me choose what i really want.
[/quote]

Exactly, games like Crysis 2, James cameron avatar the game, and Deus ex human revolution all have in game 3D Stereo options that let you run 3D at any resolution the game supports and your screen as well as the refresh rate(with out any middle ware 3D software).

Most importantly your competitors middle ware 3D software :

1.) TriDef-3D-4.5.1 --> http://www.tridef.com/download/TriDef-3D-4.5.1.html --> http://www.ddd.com/
2.) iZ3D --> http://www.iz3d.com/

Let you run your games in 3D Stereo at any resolution and refresh rate the game supports and your screen. I have purchased both of these and they do exactly what I want, which is play at any of the games and your screens resolution and refresh rate all in 3D Stereo. Why have you made 3DTV Play constrained?

I have been a long time and loyal Nvidia fan and supporter, please stop telling us that HDMI 1.4a standards don't allow it etc, its false when specific games and other middle ware 3D software prove its possible. Please remove the refresh rate and resolution constraints from 3DTV Play so we can continue to support NVidia and have the same features your competitors do(TriDef, iZ3D).

Thanks
[quote name='Jude' date='26 August 2011 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1314344188' post='1284439']

But you are aware that 1280x720 looks bad on almost all 3dtv because is not their native resolution? Why no let the player choose the resolution/hz they want? For better quality people will always look for the native resolution of the panel and give the option to select 1360x768 or 1024x768 for example could increase the picture quality of the game in some panels, this is just for frame packing, giving the option also for side by side will help to achieve 1080p native resolution too.



I have installed three drivers for S3D atm in my computer on two S.O. and i get the worse results with 3dplay just because im stuck to what this software thinks its best for me instead of let me choose what i really want.





Exactly, games like Crysis 2, James cameron avatar the game, and Deus ex human revolution all have in game 3D Stereo options that let you run 3D at any resolution the game supports and your screen as well as the refresh rate(with out any middle ware 3D software).



Most importantly your competitors middle ware 3D software :



1.) TriDef-3D-4.5.1 --> http://www.tridef.com/download/TriDef-3D-4.5.1.html --> http://www.ddd.com/

2.) iZ3D --> http://www.iz3d.com/



Let you run your games in 3D Stereo at any resolution and refresh rate the game supports and your screen. I have purchased both of these and they do exactly what I want, which is play at any of the games and your screens resolution and refresh rate all in 3D Stereo. Why have you made 3DTV Play constrained?



I have been a long time and loyal Nvidia fan and supporter, please stop telling us that HDMI 1.4a standards don't allow it etc, its false when specific games and other middle ware 3D software prove its possible. Please remove the refresh rate and resolution constraints from 3DTV Play so we can continue to support NVidia and have the same features your competitors do(TriDef, iZ3D).



Thanks

#8
Posted 08/28/2011 05:05 PM   
*removed*
*removed*

#9
Posted 08/29/2011 03:30 PM   
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.[/quote]That is not correct! And based on the Tech Specs of the 3DTV Software shown at http://store.nvidia.com/DRHM/store?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nvidia&Locale=en_US&Env=BASE&productID=206491300# i think that nVIDIA still uses outdated information. For example the current Samsung LED TV (Series 8 -> UE55D8090) supports 3D in FullHD. Even the old (and officially supported by nVIDIA) Series 7 -> UE55D7090 support 3D in FullHD (1080p).
It would be great if nVIDIA would just remove the limitation to allow us even testing if our TV supports 3D at FullHD. If not, we can change the resolution back to HalfHD (720p) which is officially supported.
[quote name='andrewf@nvidia' date='24 August 2011 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1314223459' post='1283820']3D TVs do not support 1920x1080 full resolution 3D. They suppot side/side and checkerboard support. They do support 1280x720 3D at 120Hz.That is not correct! And based on the Tech Specs of the 3DTV Software shown at http://store.nvidia.com/DRHM/store?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=nvidia&Locale=en_US&Env=BASE&productID=206491300# i think that nVIDIA still uses outdated information. For example the current Samsung LED TV (Series 8 -> UE55D8090) supports 3D in FullHD. Even the old (and officially supported by nVIDIA) Series 7 -> UE55D7090 support 3D in FullHD (1080p).

It would be great if nVIDIA would just remove the limitation to allow us even testing if our TV supports 3D at FullHD. If not, we can change the resolution back to HalfHD (720p) which is officially supported.

#10
Posted 09/30/2011 01:36 AM   
K, this may be completely wrong, but...
am I wrong in assuming

in-game 3D options via native support result in...
(60 Frames by game engine)@1080P + (60 Frames by TV thru interpolation) = 60 Frames per eye to user

Nvidia thinks we need, which they and we both know is not possible via HDMI
(120 Frames by Nvidia)@1080P = 60 Frames per eye to user

What is needed for a non 120HZ 3D capable display
(60 Frames by Nvidia)@1080P + (60 Frames by TV thru interpolation) = 60 Frames per eye to user

_______________________________________________________________________

What I do know is that 720P does not look as good as 1080P on my 3D HDTV. I also know that Avatar allows me to play in a 1080P@60 reolution with settings maxed on my 480GTX. I can play in Full Checkerboard, Sensio, RealD, Line Interlaced and Side by Side all in beautiful 1080P with minor in-game adjustments to depth, screen size and distance to screen. I can also play in 3DTV Play 1080P@24, which isn't much of a problem in this game, but in many other games is unplayable. Resulting in switching over to the ugly 720P@60.
K, this may be completely wrong, but...

am I wrong in assuming



in-game 3D options via native support result in...

(60 Frames by game engine)@1080P + (60 Frames by TV thru interpolation) = 60 Frames per eye to user



Nvidia thinks we need, which they and we both know is not possible via HDMI

(120 Frames by Nvidia)@1080P = 60 Frames per eye to user



What is needed for a non 120HZ 3D capable display

(60 Frames by Nvidia)@1080P + (60 Frames by TV thru interpolation) = 60 Frames per eye to user



_______________________________________________________________________



What I do know is that 720P does not look as good as 1080P on my 3D HDTV. I also know that Avatar allows me to play in a 1080P@60 reolution with settings maxed on my 480GTX. I can play in Full Checkerboard, Sensio, RealD, Line Interlaced and Side by Side all in beautiful 1080P with minor in-game adjustments to depth, screen size and distance to screen. I can also play in 3DTV Play 1080P@24, which isn't much of a problem in this game, but in many other games is unplayable. Resulting in switching over to the ugly 720P@60.

#11
Posted 09/30/2011 10:15 AM   
First off we need a better hdmi spec. one that have movies and games in mind, not only movies like the one we have atm.

Till then we have just 2 options with our 3dtv's, play with tridef or iz3d at 1080p/60hz in side by side or play with 3dtvplay at 720p/60hz, for me 1080p/24hz is not an option or is just a very bad one.
First off we need a better hdmi spec. one that have movies and games in mind, not only movies like the one we have atm.



Till then we have just 2 options with our 3dtv's, play with tridef or iz3d at 1080p/60hz in side by side or play with 3dtvplay at 720p/60hz, for me 1080p/24hz is not an option or is just a very bad one.

#12
Posted 09/30/2011 11:04 AM   
We don't need a new spec or better TVs but what we need is nvidia to do much better software (software apps, drivers and firmware) and to stop them trying to dominate the market. nvidia is doing it totally wrong. They can dominate AMD as they want (as they already do /smile2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':))' /> but they don't have any clue about 3D, TVs, displays, etc.

Most FullHD TVs are capable of more than 120 fps and this is more than enough for 3D. If a TV can natively show 120 fps for 2D it can show 60+60 fps for 3D and this is not even the minimum we need. 60 fps for the left eye and 60 fps for the right eye = 120 fps.

My old TV (Toshiba 46ZD355D) does not feature 3D but it runs at 100 Hz, thus i could generate a Full HD 3D image if i could set the signal to 1920x1080@100Hz (50 fps for each eye). 50 fps @ 1080p are much better than no 3D at all. Nobody said that 3D has to be at atleast 60 fps per eye. Yes its smoother but not a requirement! Most new TVs run natively at 200 Hz or 400 Hz (1080p) and this is much more than we really need.

@ nVIDIA: Stop telling us what's good or bad, what's the minimum requirement, etc. You don't have a clue about anything else than graphics cards (i had a Socket 775 nForce chipset motherboard. It was the worst i ever had. Just bought it for 7800GTX SLI. NEVER EVER AGAIN!). Your website has so many outdated information, dead links, not working features, etc. but you don't care. The current release of the nvidia performance monitor (that thing which enables you to change the gpu fan speed on supported GPUs) doesn't work with current driver. I used it before but not it doesn't work. You really need to get much much better with the software part of your work, then you could dominate them all with one GPU :)
We don't need a new spec or better TVs but what we need is nvidia to do much better software (software apps, drivers and firmware) and to stop them trying to dominate the market. nvidia is doing it totally wrong. They can dominate AMD as they want (as they already do /smile2.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':))' /> but they don't have any clue about 3D, TVs, displays, etc.



Most FullHD TVs are capable of more than 120 fps and this is more than enough for 3D. If a TV can natively show 120 fps for 2D it can show 60+60 fps for 3D and this is not even the minimum we need. 60 fps for the left eye and 60 fps for the right eye = 120 fps.



My old TV (Toshiba 46ZD355D) does not feature 3D but it runs at 100 Hz, thus i could generate a Full HD 3D image if i could set the signal to 1920x1080@100Hz (50 fps for each eye). 50 fps @ 1080p are much better than no 3D at all. Nobody said that 3D has to be at atleast 60 fps per eye. Yes its smoother but not a requirement! Most new TVs run natively at 200 Hz or 400 Hz (1080p) and this is much more than we really need.



@ nVIDIA: Stop telling us what's good or bad, what's the minimum requirement, etc. You don't have a clue about anything else than graphics cards (i had a Socket 775 nForce chipset motherboard. It was the worst i ever had. Just bought it for 7800GTX SLI. NEVER EVER AGAIN!). Your website has so many outdated information, dead links, not working features, etc. but you don't care. The current release of the nvidia performance monitor (that thing which enables you to change the gpu fan speed on supported GPUs) doesn't work with current driver. I used it before but not it doesn't work. You really need to get much much better with the software part of your work, then you could dominate them all with one GPU :)

#13
Posted 09/30/2011 12:10 PM   
I did that same question directly to them and their anwser was that 3dtvplay cant run at that resolution due hdmi limitations.

In fact im inclined to belive them because other driver like tridef shares that same limitation, so the problem as i see is on the hdmi chip, or the sotware that controls it.

Lets pick a resolution of 1080p/30hz that, as far i know, its on the safe range of the hdmi chip brandwidth but we cant use it, i asked them if nvidia can bypass that limitation and their answer was no... so the only option we have is to wait till people behind hdmi wake up and realise that 3dtv's are also used as a game display, this or nvidia learn how to bypass hdmi limitation.

To be honest im not very confident on neither :)
I did that same question directly to them and their anwser was that 3dtvplay cant run at that resolution due hdmi limitations.



In fact im inclined to belive them because other driver like tridef shares that same limitation, so the problem as i see is on the hdmi chip, or the sotware that controls it.



Lets pick a resolution of 1080p/30hz that, as far i know, its on the safe range of the hdmi chip brandwidth but we cant use it, i asked them if nvidia can bypass that limitation and their answer was no... so the only option we have is to wait till people behind hdmi wake up and realise that 3dtv's are also used as a game display, this or nvidia learn how to bypass hdmi limitation.



To be honest im not very confident on neither :)

#14
Posted 09/30/2011 12:36 PM   
[quote name='Jude' date='30 September 2011 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1317386193' post='1301114']

In fact im inclined to belive them because other driver like tridef shares that same limitation, so the problem as i see is on the hdmi chip, or the sotware that controls it.
[/quote]


Hi,
Tridef and iz3d do'nt share the same limitations of 3dtvplay at all, they can play 1080p/60hz so there's no reason 3dtvplay can't do this, the limitations come from nvidia having todo things differently as usual.
Nvidia need to pull there finger out and get a grip on life as they seem tobe stupidly high paid people that know nothing about people!

Nobody wants 3dtvplay that is locked to 1080p/24hz or 720p/60hz, it's been said many many times, nobody wants the junk.
We want OPTIONS, not LOCKOUT!

Our tv's can support alot more performance than 3dtvplay gives out, and as such if we want to use 3dtvplay we have to put up with a silly low res for nothing, there's no reason behind this, it's just a few peoples brainchild and boy did they get it wrong.

So i pay for iz3d and tridef and if i want to use 3dtvplay i'll use my spare hdd and format and get another 14 days free but believe me i do'nt do this often as i never use 3dtvplay as it's a load of junk, it's junk that's been made junk by high paid junkies!

Imagine if nvidia employed real people from the streets, then imagine how happy the people would be on the streets!

I'm sure if Andrew pushed it he could get these options the world is craving for added in the next build and i do'nt mean tobe rude even though i know it is but Andrew can't have a clue either, i do'nt know him so can't really comment.

I could rant about this all day but alas i have better things todo like go play Tridef which i paid for!

I allso sold my nvidia card so can't use 3dtvplay anyway and i would'nt go back unless they made 3dtvplay the way it was meant tobe played!
[quote name='Jude' date='30 September 2011 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1317386193' post='1301114']



In fact im inclined to belive them because other driver like tridef shares that same limitation, so the problem as i see is on the hdmi chip, or the sotware that controls it.







Hi,

Tridef and iz3d do'nt share the same limitations of 3dtvplay at all, they can play 1080p/60hz so there's no reason 3dtvplay can't do this, the limitations come from nvidia having todo things differently as usual.

Nvidia need to pull there finger out and get a grip on life as they seem tobe stupidly high paid people that know nothing about people!



Nobody wants 3dtvplay that is locked to 1080p/24hz or 720p/60hz, it's been said many many times, nobody wants the junk.

We want OPTIONS, not LOCKOUT!



Our tv's can support alot more performance than 3dtvplay gives out, and as such if we want to use 3dtvplay we have to put up with a silly low res for nothing, there's no reason behind this, it's just a few peoples brainchild and boy did they get it wrong.



So i pay for iz3d and tridef and if i want to use 3dtvplay i'll use my spare hdd and format and get another 14 days free but believe me i do'nt do this often as i never use 3dtvplay as it's a load of junk, it's junk that's been made junk by high paid junkies!



Imagine if nvidia employed real people from the streets, then imagine how happy the people would be on the streets!



I'm sure if Andrew pushed it he could get these options the world is craving for added in the next build and i do'nt mean tobe rude even though i know it is but Andrew can't have a clue either, i do'nt know him so can't really comment.



I could rant about this all day but alas i have better things todo like go play Tridef which i paid for!



I allso sold my nvidia card so can't use 3dtvplay anyway and i would'nt go back unless they made 3dtvplay the way it was meant tobe played!

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#15
Posted 09/30/2011 01:05 PM   
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