Any 240Hz input TV's out there?
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Hi, first post. I've searched google for the last 30min. I'm giving up because i'm finding TV specs to be BS and misleading.


QUESTION:

Do you guys know of any TVs/monitors that support a 240Hz [b]input[/b] signal?


Also, can any of the nvidia cards drive a 240hz TV at 1080p?


can HDMI 1.4 support 240Hz at 1080p? what about 720?


Thanks!
Hi, first post. I've searched google for the last 30min. I'm giving up because i'm finding TV specs to be BS and misleading.





QUESTION:



Do you guys know of any TVs/monitors that support a 240Hz input signal?





Also, can any of the nvidia cards drive a 240hz TV at 1080p?





can HDMI 1.4 support 240Hz at 1080p? what about 720?





Thanks!

#1
Posted 07/22/2010 05:06 PM   
No to all of those.
HDMI 1.4 doesn't even support 120hz, it uses various other methods to send the 2 views side by side, at 24p or 60p etc
You would need some serious displayport bandwidth to drive 240hz 1080p, not to mention that you would have to use OCB LCD or some sort of short decaying Plasma screen, not normal LCD
No to all of those.

HDMI 1.4 doesn't even support 120hz, it uses various other methods to send the 2 views side by side, at 24p or 60p etc

You would need some serious displayport bandwidth to drive 240hz 1080p, not to mention that you would have to use OCB LCD or some sort of short decaying Plasma screen, not normal LCD

#2
Posted 07/22/2010 06:30 PM   
Could you please elaborate on how 3D is achieved with 120hz then? Or link me somewhere?

I thought it was just 2 60Hz signals that alternate and your glasses sync to that.

I know there are other ways of creating the 3D effect...but all the active shutter glasses do it that way i thought....i could definitely be wrong though.
Could you please elaborate on how 3D is achieved with 120hz then? Or link me somewhere?



I thought it was just 2 60Hz signals that alternate and your glasses sync to that.



I know there are other ways of creating the 3D effect...but all the active shutter glasses do it that way i thought....i could definitely be wrong though.

#3
Posted 07/22/2010 07:09 PM   
the dumb 120hz monitors for nvidia use dual link dvi, since single link dvi allows 1080p at 60hz, dual link dvi does 2 pixels per clock, and allows 1080p at 120hz, and that's that, the monitors just refresh 120 times a second
all the magic happens with the emitter and the glasses nvidia gives
hdmi 1.4 tv's on the other hand, receive 60 or 24 frames per second, except one "frame" contains both the left and the right view. the TV's firmware then decides what to do with that input. Most of them just will do the same 120hz thing that nvidia does, except the glasses are controlled by the TV itself.
hdmi 1.3a TV's will allow for 1080p24 stereo (internally, the displays will still flash at 120hz or whatever frequency they choose, they will only receive 24 stereo frames per second), or 720p60 stereo
high bandwidth hdmi 1.4 tvs should allow for full 1080p60 stereo.
the goal of hdmi 3d is for it to be technology agnostic, it doesn care HOW you achieve stereo 3d, it only sends both the left/right view in a single frame, the TV decides
so you can have normal LCD TVs shuttering at 120hz with 60p or 24p input, or a LASER TV shutterng at 600hz with the same 60p or 24p input, or even things like autostereoscopic or micropolarized screens, which dont shutter at all
the dumb 120hz monitors for nvidia use dual link dvi, since single link dvi allows 1080p at 60hz, dual link dvi does 2 pixels per clock, and allows 1080p at 120hz, and that's that, the monitors just refresh 120 times a second

all the magic happens with the emitter and the glasses nvidia gives

hdmi 1.4 tv's on the other hand, receive 60 or 24 frames per second, except one "frame" contains both the left and the right view. the TV's firmware then decides what to do with that input. Most of them just will do the same 120hz thing that nvidia does, except the glasses are controlled by the TV itself.

hdmi 1.3a TV's will allow for 1080p24 stereo (internally, the displays will still flash at 120hz or whatever frequency they choose, they will only receive 24 stereo frames per second), or 720p60 stereo

high bandwidth hdmi 1.4 tvs should allow for full 1080p60 stereo.

the goal of hdmi 3d is for it to be technology agnostic, it doesn care HOW you achieve stereo 3d, it only sends both the left/right view in a single frame, the TV decides

so you can have normal LCD TVs shuttering at 120hz with 60p or 24p input, or a LASER TV shutterng at 600hz with the same 60p or 24p input, or even things like autostereoscopic or micropolarized screens, which dont shutter at all

#4
Posted 07/22/2010 07:46 PM   
Nvidia 3D vision ready displays receive frames at 120Hz and then display is designed to show the pictures at 120Hz with an extremely tight and predictable delay. The display does not know what 3D is, it does not need to, the computer does all the work for the display and is in charge of synchronizing the glasses. It's like if a portion of the firmware was executed remotely.
It is the traditional way of doing frame alternate 3D with shutter glasses, like it's been done for 10-15 years. It's easy to do because it does not need the display to be 3D aware, all it needs is to be fast enough, thanks to the huge software flexibility of the computer, but it makes the display manufacturer dependant on the software of the graphics card to get the display working in 3D, this is not acceptable for a manufacturer who wants to sell a reliable 3D display, this is why the entire heavy home TV manufacturers moved away from this solution.

True 3D monitors and 3DTVs work differently : these displays take standardized inputs containing both left eye and right eye images at the same time, received at whatever rate the source is designed to work (24Hz for BluRay, 50Hz or 60Hz for television depending on your country). The TV is designed to understand the concept of left and right eye images and transforms these images into whatever format it needs internally to show something 3D. The glasses are always tied to the display, this way the video source is completely independent from the display type : it can be polarised with polarised glasses, time sequential with shutter glasses, a head mounted display, whatever you want, the source device is the same.
For example Hdmi 1.4 does not transmit 120Hz for 3D (yes it can transmit 120Hz, but it does not use it for 3D). Depending on which transmission mode is used Hdmi 1.4 uses one of these formats :
-frame packing 1080p 24Hz for BluRay 3D (two full resolution images sent together in one double-size frame + separation blanking)
-frame packing 720p 50/60Hz for 3D gaming (two full resolution images sent together in one double-size frame + separation blanking)
-side by side 720p/1080i/1080p 50/60Hz for 3D Broadcasts (two half resolution images compressed horizontally to fit within one single standard size frame)
-Top and bottom 720p/1080i 50/60Hz for 3D Broadcasts (two half resolution images compressed vertically to fit within one single standard size frame, added by Hdmi1.4a)

There are also other formats defined by hdmi 1.4 but they are not mandatory, so TV manufacturers do not need to support them, some TVs have extra formats, others don't.
Each display has it's own inner workings but in the case of 3DTVs, the left and right eye images are generally shown alternatively once to achieve 120 displayed Hz if the source is 60Hz or shown multiple times to achieve 96 , 120 or 144 displayed Hz if the source is 24Hz. There are variations with 24Hz source material because 120 is not an multiple of 48 (2x24), I read some Sony 3DTVs work at 96Hz (display each frame 2x), cinema projectors work at 144Hz (display each frame 3x), but most 3DTVs work at 120Hz and have to do some internal tweaks to display properly. There are various ways this can be done, either drop frames for one eye or convert the frame rate, or a combination of both : each TV is different and I do not know how the inner workings of each TV.
Nvidia 3D vision ready displays receive frames at 120Hz and then display is designed to show the pictures at 120Hz with an extremely tight and predictable delay. The display does not know what 3D is, it does not need to, the computer does all the work for the display and is in charge of synchronizing the glasses. It's like if a portion of the firmware was executed remotely.

It is the traditional way of doing frame alternate 3D with shutter glasses, like it's been done for 10-15 years. It's easy to do because it does not need the display to be 3D aware, all it needs is to be fast enough, thanks to the huge software flexibility of the computer, but it makes the display manufacturer dependant on the software of the graphics card to get the display working in 3D, this is not acceptable for a manufacturer who wants to sell a reliable 3D display, this is why the entire heavy home TV manufacturers moved away from this solution.



True 3D monitors and 3DTVs work differently : these displays take standardized inputs containing both left eye and right eye images at the same time, received at whatever rate the source is designed to work (24Hz for BluRay, 50Hz or 60Hz for television depending on your country). The TV is designed to understand the concept of left and right eye images and transforms these images into whatever format it needs internally to show something 3D. The glasses are always tied to the display, this way the video source is completely independent from the display type : it can be polarised with polarised glasses, time sequential with shutter glasses, a head mounted display, whatever you want, the source device is the same.

For example Hdmi 1.4 does not transmit 120Hz for 3D (yes it can transmit 120Hz, but it does not use it for 3D). Depending on which transmission mode is used Hdmi 1.4 uses one of these formats :

-frame packing 1080p 24Hz for BluRay 3D (two full resolution images sent together in one double-size frame + separation blanking)

-frame packing 720p 50/60Hz for 3D gaming (two full resolution images sent together in one double-size frame + separation blanking)

-side by side 720p/1080i/1080p 50/60Hz for 3D Broadcasts (two half resolution images compressed horizontally to fit within one single standard size frame)

-Top and bottom 720p/1080i 50/60Hz for 3D Broadcasts (two half resolution images compressed vertically to fit within one single standard size frame, added by Hdmi1.4a)



There are also other formats defined by hdmi 1.4 but they are not mandatory, so TV manufacturers do not need to support them, some TVs have extra formats, others don't.

Each display has it's own inner workings but in the case of 3DTVs, the left and right eye images are generally shown alternatively once to achieve 120 displayed Hz if the source is 60Hz or shown multiple times to achieve 96 , 120 or 144 displayed Hz if the source is 24Hz. There are variations with 24Hz source material because 120 is not an multiple of 48 (2x24), I read some Sony 3DTVs work at 96Hz (display each frame 2x), cinema projectors work at 144Hz (display each frame 3x), but most 3DTVs work at 120Hz and have to do some internal tweaks to display properly. There are various ways this can be done, either drop frames for one eye or convert the frame rate, or a combination of both : each TV is different and I do not know how the inner workings of each TV.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#5
Posted 07/22/2010 08:07 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='1091949' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:07 PM']120 is not an multiple of 24[/quote]
120/24=5
did you mean 120 is not a multiple of 48 ?
however, yes, you would have to be in 96hz or 144hz if youre going to use shutter glasses and dont want to suffer from judder/telecine artefacts
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='1091949' date='Jul 22 2010, 09:07 PM']120 is not an multiple of 24

120/24=5

did you mean 120 is not a multiple of 48 ?

however, yes, you would have to be in 96hz or 144hz if youre going to use shutter glasses and dont want to suffer from judder/telecine artefacts

#6
Posted 07/22/2010 08:15 PM   
[quote name='rajkoderp' post='1091952' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:15 PM']120/24=5
did you mean 120 is not a multiple of 48 ?
however, yes, you would have to be in 96hz or 144hz if youre going to use shutter glasses and dont want to suffer from judder/telecine artefacts[/quote]

oops, small typing mistake :"> corrected.
[quote name='rajkoderp' post='1091952' date='Jul 22 2010, 10:15 PM']120/24=5

did you mean 120 is not a multiple of 48 ?

however, yes, you would have to be in 96hz or 144hz if youre going to use shutter glasses and dont want to suffer from judder/telecine artefacts



oops, small typing mistake :"> corrected.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#7
Posted 07/22/2010 08:21 PM   
OK. thanks for those replies. That helps a lot....you have no idea! I understand the different methods 3D is achieved now. I guess its mostly bandwidth issues of each I don't understand.

From what i gathered:

Nvision can produce 1080p at 60Hz in 3D using a 120Hz input signal.....but when you rely on a 3D ready TV you send it a 60Hz signal with both left and right frames attached (frame packing) and let the TV sort out the image. Then the glasses then sync to the TV...this way TV manufactors don't have to rely on 3rd party hardware.

Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?
OK. thanks for those replies. That helps a lot....you have no idea! I understand the different methods 3D is achieved now. I guess its mostly bandwidth issues of each I don't understand.



From what i gathered:



Nvision can produce 1080p at 60Hz in 3D using a 120Hz input signal.....but when you rely on a 3D ready TV you send it a 60Hz signal with both left and right frames attached (frame packing) and let the TV sort out the image. Then the glasses then sync to the TV...this way TV manufactors don't have to rely on 3rd party hardware.



Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?

#8
Posted 07/22/2010 10:00 PM   
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092013' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:00 PM']OK. thanks for those replies. That helps a lot....you have no idea! I understand the different methods 3D is achieved now. I guess its mostly bandwidth issues of each I don't understand.

From what i gathered:

Nvision can produce 1080p at 60Hz in 3D using a 120Hz input signal.....but when you rely on a 3D ready TV you send it a 60Hz signal with both left and right frames attached (frame packing) and let the TV sort out the image. Then the glasses then sync to the TV...this way TV manufactors don't have to rely on 3rd party hardware.

Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?[/quote]

HDMI 1.4 doesn't have (or at least doesn't require) a fullframe 1080P 60Hz stereo mode.
AFAICS there is no bandwidth increase between the HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 specs, just new modes, and other bits and pieces.
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092013' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:00 PM']OK. thanks for those replies. That helps a lot....you have no idea! I understand the different methods 3D is achieved now. I guess its mostly bandwidth issues of each I don't understand.



From what i gathered:



Nvision can produce 1080p at 60Hz in 3D using a 120Hz input signal.....but when you rely on a 3D ready TV you send it a 60Hz signal with both left and right frames attached (frame packing) and let the TV sort out the image. Then the glasses then sync to the TV...this way TV manufactors don't have to rely on 3rd party hardware.



Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?



HDMI 1.4 doesn't have (or at least doesn't require) a fullframe 1080P 60Hz stereo mode.

AFAICS there is no bandwidth increase between the HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.4 specs, just new modes, and other bits and pieces.
#9
Posted 07/22/2010 10:12 PM   
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092013' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:00 PM']Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?[/quote]

There's no dual link, it's a 720p60 frame packed signal over HDMI.
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092013' date='Jul 22 2010, 03:00 PM']Yet you say using 3D ready TV's while gaming, the resolution drops to 720p? Is because HDMI 1.4 cant enter dual link at 60 hz? Does it not have the bandwidth to send the oversized frames?



There's no dual link, it's a 720p60 frame packed signal over HDMI.

#10
Posted 07/22/2010 11:03 PM   
I guess my question was just why cant it do 1080p60 with a frame packed signal?
I guess my question was just why cant it do 1080p60 with a frame packed signal?

#11
Posted 07/23/2010 01:11 PM   
hdmi 1.4 DID ACTUALLY INTRODUCE new bandwidth cables with integrated ethernet and stuff
nothing actually uses it i ugess
it can't do 1080p60 3d as that would require more bandwidth than it has
remember, HDMI is always SINGLE LINK, there is no DUAL LINK HDMI like there is for DVI
hdmi 1.4 DID ACTUALLY INTRODUCE new bandwidth cables with integrated ethernet and stuff

nothing actually uses it i ugess

it can't do 1080p60 3d as that would require more bandwidth than it has

remember, HDMI is always SINGLE LINK, there is no DUAL LINK HDMI like there is for DVI

#12
Posted 07/23/2010 02:08 PM   
bahhh...i'm getting damn confused now.
bahhh...i'm getting damn confused now.

#13
Posted 07/23/2010 04:18 PM   
Supersampling AA = higher resolution scaled back to 720p. ~ bruteforce

But hey, they could could give us close to SSAA quality morphological AA with next to zero perfomance hit . : )))) Only they won't : )))))
Supersampling AA = higher resolution scaled back to 720p. ~ bruteforce



But hey, they could could give us close to SSAA quality morphological AA with next to zero perfomance hit . : )))) Only they won't : )))))

#14
Posted 07/23/2010 04:22 PM   
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092397' date='Jul 23 2010, 05:18 PM']bahhh...i'm getting damn confused now.[/quote]


Try an optoma or acer pj at 720p over a weekend, and ask yourself if you want fullHD that bad , you won't :D

[quote]Even games that run natively at 1080p resolution, like Super Stardust HD, are downscaled in 3D mode to two 720p images (one for each eye), Sony's Simon Benson explained during a demo of the technology at the conference. While the PS3 is capable of displaying a 1080p 3D image -- indeed, it will support 3D Blu-Ray movies at that resolution later this year -- Benson said upping the resolution comes at the expense of the silky-smooth 60 frames per second available at 720p (Blu-Ray movies run at 24 frames per second). Benson said that a "more cinematic game" might be well-suited for the lower frame rate and higher resolution, but that Sony's current guidelines for 3D games wouldn't allow for such a setting.
[b]The effects of this policy are probably unnoticeable to most gamers. Benson said that, in 3D, even trained computer graphics artists could barely tell the difference between the resolutions. [/b]Still, for all you pixel counters out there who obsess over "full HD 1080p," here's another bit of technical trivia for you to argue over.[/quote]

Especially DLP is good at 720p, because world beater fill factor spec ( the interpixel rows take away less than 10% of the screen area , with LCD thats over 40% in the best case).
[quote name='CamJ256' post='1092397' date='Jul 23 2010, 05:18 PM']bahhh...i'm getting damn confused now.





Try an optoma or acer pj at 720p over a weekend, and ask yourself if you want fullHD that bad , you won't :D



Even games that run natively at 1080p resolution, like Super Stardust HD, are downscaled in 3D mode to two 720p images (one for each eye), Sony's Simon Benson explained during a demo of the technology at the conference. While the PS3 is capable of displaying a 1080p 3D image -- indeed, it will support 3D Blu-Ray movies at that resolution later this year -- Benson said upping the resolution comes at the expense of the silky-smooth 60 frames per second available at 720p (Blu-Ray movies run at 24 frames per second). Benson said that a "more cinematic game" might be well-suited for the lower frame rate and higher resolution, but that Sony's current guidelines for 3D games wouldn't allow for such a setting.

The effects of this policy are probably unnoticeable to most gamers. Benson said that, in 3D, even trained computer graphics artists could barely tell the difference between the resolutions. Still, for all you pixel counters out there who obsess over "full HD 1080p," here's another bit of technical trivia for you to argue over.




Especially DLP is good at 720p, because world beater fill factor spec ( the interpixel rows take away less than 10% of the screen area , with LCD thats over 40% in the best case).

#15
Posted 07/23/2010 04:47 PM   
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