RTX 2080 incoming...
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[quote="RAGEdemon"]No company in their right mind would sell a product for $10 if they could sell it for $20 and shift a similar volume. In fact, it is illegal to do so, as by the company's and country's own rules and regulations - the articles of association et al. The people who run the company, i.e. the directors and executives - their primary goal above anything (even token ethics policies put into place by HR solely to avoid lawsuits) is to increase shareholder wealth. If they can't do that, then they won't get their bonuses at the end of the year and the board will find someone who can (hence the usual short sighted strategies of companies).[/quote] I often see this idea repeated, and because I'm stupid that way, I feel the need to correct the record. It is not true that companies are legally required to maximize their profits. It's always possible that elsewhere in the world this is true, but I can say for a fact that in the US there is no such law. There are incentives, no doubt, but no law requires companies to put money above other factors in the business. You see this in big name companies all the time, Tesla for example. Amazon for example. Running losses for nearly ever. If there were a law, they would have been sued. Besides which, there is no way this could be enforced. It makes no sense to treat all businesses the same regarding shareholder value. Does Amazon running losses for 10 years to become a giant constitute a good strategy, or a bad strategy... at the time? If shareholder value is the only thing that matters, then why does Mark Zuckerberg have all the voting rights for how the company is run? Please do not continue to repeat this falsehood.
RAGEdemon said:No company in their right mind would sell a product for $10 if they could sell it for $20 and shift a similar volume. In fact, it is illegal to do so, as by the company's and country's own rules and regulations - the articles of association et al.

The people who run the company, i.e. the directors and executives - their primary goal above anything (even token ethics policies put into place by HR solely to avoid lawsuits) is to increase shareholder wealth. If they can't do that, then they won't get their bonuses at the end of the year and the board will find someone who can (hence the usual short sighted strategies of companies).

I often see this idea repeated, and because I'm stupid that way, I feel the need to correct the record. It is not true that companies are legally required to maximize their profits.

It's always possible that elsewhere in the world this is true, but I can say for a fact that in the US there is no such law.

There are incentives, no doubt, but no law requires companies to put money above other factors in the business. You see this in big name companies all the time, Tesla for example. Amazon for example. Running losses for nearly ever. If there were a law, they would have been sued.

Besides which, there is no way this could be enforced. It makes no sense to treat all businesses the same regarding shareholder value. Does Amazon running losses for 10 years to become a giant constitute a good strategy, or a bad strategy... at the time? If shareholder value is the only thing that matters, then why does Mark Zuckerberg have all the voting rights for how the company is run?

Please do not continue to repeat this falsehood.

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#46
Posted 08/16/2018 09:43 PM   
Now now bo3b, let's not play the nitpicking game. I too, am a stupid guy, but there is a difference between a well meaning strategy not working out (business judgement rule), and knowingly not maximising profits for some personal ideology, e.g. save the animals, or 'don't be evil' as once was the google motto ;-) [quote="bo3b"]It is not true that companies are legally required to maximize their profits. It's always possible that elsewhere in the world this is true, but I can say for a fact that in the US there is no such law.[/quote] Umm, mate, The Delaware Court would like to disagree with you. Its decision in eBay v. Newmark is literally the opposite of the "fact" that you presented: [code]The Delaware court's decision in eBay v. Newmark has been viewed by many commentators as a decisive affirmation of shareholder wealth maximisation as the only legally permissible objective of a for‐profit corporation.[/code] This is set precedent, and now pretty much every corporation has to abide by it under US law. The general rule is still that the board has wide discretion based on the business judgement rule. In other words, as long as the decisions they're making are based on reasonably prudent business basis, they're going to be allowed to do so without a court getting involved. Shareholders want returns on their investment above anything else, including save the animals (within reason of course, unless all the shareholders indeed want to save the animals at the cost of their precious profit). The shareholders select directors on their promise for such profits for shareholders, which includes strategy. They are then rewarded with bonuses for their performance. This is where Bezos @ Amazon comes in - convince shareholders that getting bigger now although means less profit now, it does mean a much bigger profit later. Zuck is similar, - he has controlling vote too IIRC so can do what he likes. The same goes for Elon Musk and Tesla / SpaceX. The controlling vote/share can do whatever the hell they like because they ARE the majority shareholder/voters and they OWN the company. If the directors mislead shareholders knowing fully well that they are not maximising profits for them for the sake of some personal ideology etc, then not only can the shareholders sue, but it is seen as fraud, a legal offence punishable by prison and fine. Under UK law: -- Under the criminal offence of making a false statement as to the affairs of the company with the intent of deceiving shareholders or creditors of a company (section 19 of the Theft Act 1968); -- Under the criminal offences under the Fraud Act 2006 of dishonestly making a representation which is untrue or misleading where the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading and dishonestly failing to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, both offences requiring the intention of making a gain or causing loss or risk of loss to another person (sections 2 and 3 of the Fraud Act 2006); -- For imprisonment (up to 10 years) or a fine if he is knowingly party to the company carrying on its business with intent to defraud creditors of the company or of another person or for any fraudulent purpose (section 993 of the Act ); Shareholders are the [b]owners[/b] of the corporation. They absolutely do and should have the right to decide how the corporation is managed by their own employees. If their employees are acting against their interest as owners, they should both have the right to fire them (i.e. replacing the board of directors), and suing them to force them to do the "right thing" i.e. maximise their profit. I'll leave you with what you yourself said: [quote="bo3b"]Please do not continue to repeat [your] falsehood.[/quote] From one stupid guy to another, all the best :)
Now now bo3b, let's not play the nitpicking game. I too, am a stupid guy, but there is a difference between a well meaning strategy not working out (business judgement rule), and knowingly not maximising profits for some personal ideology, e.g. save the animals, or 'don't be evil' as once was the google motto ;-)

bo3b said:It is not true that companies are legally required to maximize their profits.
It's always possible that elsewhere in the world this is true, but I can say for a fact that in the US there is no such law.

Umm, mate, The Delaware Court would like to disagree with you. Its decision in eBay v. Newmark is literally the opposite of the "fact" that you presented:

The Delaware court's decision in eBay v. Newmark 
has been viewed by many commentators as a decisive affirmation
of shareholder wealth maximisation as the only legally permissible
objective of a for‐profit corporation.


This is set precedent, and now pretty much every corporation has to abide by it under US law.

The general rule is still that the board has wide discretion based on the business judgement rule. In other words, as long as the decisions they're making are based on reasonably prudent business basis, they're going to be allowed to do so without a court getting involved.

Shareholders want returns on their investment above anything else, including save the animals (within reason of course, unless all the shareholders indeed want to save the animals at the cost of their precious profit).

The shareholders select directors on their promise for such profits for shareholders, which includes strategy. They are then rewarded with bonuses for their performance. This is where Bezos @ Amazon comes in - convince shareholders that getting bigger now although means less profit now, it does mean a much bigger profit later.

Zuck is similar, - he has controlling vote too IIRC so can do what he likes. The same goes for Elon Musk and Tesla / SpaceX. The controlling vote/share can do whatever the hell they like because they ARE the majority shareholder/voters and they OWN the company.

If the directors mislead shareholders knowing fully well that they are not maximising profits for them for the sake of some personal ideology etc, then not only can the shareholders sue, but it is seen as fraud, a legal offence punishable by prison and fine.

Under UK law:
-- Under the criminal offence of making a false statement as to the affairs of the company with the intent of deceiving shareholders or creditors of a company (section 19 of the Theft Act 1968);

-- Under the criminal offences under the Fraud Act 2006 of dishonestly making a representation which is untrue or misleading where the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading and dishonestly failing to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, both offences requiring the intention of making a gain or causing loss or risk of loss to another person (sections 2 and 3 of the Fraud Act 2006);

-- For imprisonment (up to 10 years) or a fine if he is knowingly party to the company carrying on its business with intent to defraud creditors of the company or of another person or for any fraudulent purpose (section 993 of the Act );

Shareholders are the owners of the corporation. They absolutely do and should have the right to decide how the corporation is managed by their own employees. If their employees are acting against their interest as owners, they should both have the right to fire them (i.e. replacing the board of directors), and suing them to force them to do the "right thing" i.e. maximise their profit.

I'll leave you with what you yourself said:
bo3b said:Please do not continue to repeat [your] falsehood.
From one stupid guy to another, all the best :)

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#47
Posted 08/16/2018 11:05 PM   
Making profit is only common Sense. Atleast from owners perspektive as if business goes Flat you are felt with nothing and benefits atleast in Finald atleast 6 month propably longer. Offcourse the situation changes Little when we are talking about shareholders and stock companys. They hardly own as much to be called entrepreniours so their benefits are not affected. Though on the other hands all this is propably only problem for people with not that much. If you have lots cash and stocks you propably never have to go to the unemployment of pickup benefits. So yeah companys. Especially big are greed but its still commonsense and it Also funds research. I do hope there would be better tighter laws and rules for investors as many times time they are a cancer as everything keeps revolving around getting investors their money
Making profit is only common Sense. Atleast from owners perspektive as if business goes Flat you are felt with nothing and benefits atleast in Finald atleast 6 month propably longer. Offcourse the situation changes Little when we are talking about shareholders and stock companys. They hardly own as much to be called entrepreniours so their benefits are not affected. Though on the other hands all this is propably only problem for people with not that much. If you have lots cash and stocks you propably never have to go to the unemployment of pickup benefits. So yeah companys. Especially big are greed but its still commonsense and it Also funds research.
I do hope there would be better tighter laws and rules for investors as many times time they are a cancer as everything keeps revolving around getting investors their money

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#48
Posted 08/17/2018 03:53 AM   
OK so now we know that tid bit is the new video cards gonna cost 1000 USD?? this is too soon gonna be another hobby I am going to have to dump as it is too costly and I am NOT rich in the slightest.. ;)
OK so now we know that tid bit is the new video cards gonna cost 1000 USD?? this is too soon gonna be another hobby I am going to have to dump as it is too costly and I am NOT rich in the slightest.. ;)

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#49
Posted 08/17/2018 05:59 AM   
MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GAMING X TRIO pictured: [img]https://cdn.videocardz.com/1/2018/08/MSI-GeForce-RTX-2080-Ti-GAMING-X-TRIO-1000x750.jpg[/img] [url]https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-msi-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-gaming-x-trio-pictured[/url] This one looks to be the $1500 card. The non-Ti pictures also floating around, which is rumoured to be $1000.
MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GAMING X TRIO pictured:

Image

https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-msi-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-gaming-x-trio-pictured

This one looks to be the $1500 card.

The non-Ti pictures also floating around, which is rumoured to be $1000.

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#50
Posted 08/17/2018 08:57 PM   
I don't believe they'll be that expensive. I hope... I'll get the Ti since I want the biggest performance jump I can get. I like that (if rumors are really true) they'll be releasing the Ti soon this time instead of having to wait even more.
I don't believe they'll be that expensive. I hope...

I'll get the Ti since I want the biggest performance jump I can get. I like that (if rumors are really true) they'll be releasing the Ti soon this time instead of having to wait even more.

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#51
Posted 08/17/2018 10:07 PM   
The link below states 2080 $600 and 2080ti $800 https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/geforce-rtx-2080-and-2080-ti-an-overview-thus-far,1.html

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#52
Posted 08/17/2018 10:31 PM   
Indeed, let's hope they will be affordable :) Interesting NVLink connectors on them vs. old SLi type connector...
Indeed, let's hope they will be affordable :)

Interesting NVLink connectors on them vs. old SLi type connector...

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#53
Posted 08/17/2018 10:43 PM   
Price is revealed: Around 1000 USD for 2080Ti and 800 USD for 2080. It's 875 and 700€ plus tax. .
Price is revealed:

Around 1000 USD for 2080Ti and 800 USD for 2080.

It's 875 and 700€ plus tax.


.
They sound like a good step up, but fancy demos aside I'm not too bothered about ray tracing at this point. It takes a long time for new practices to catch on. Price aside, my concern is drivers. I'm assuming they'll still support 3d vision, but this is a brand new GPU and it's possible Nvidia are going to make all sorts of driver changes. Traditionally they add new feature sets with new architectures, let's hope they don't take anything out. Also I'm really curious about Nvlink and how that's going to work. Will it be backwardly compatible with old SLI titles? Again, hope so but dangerous to assume.
They sound like a good step up, but fancy demos aside I'm not too bothered about ray tracing at this point. It takes a long time for new practices to catch on. Price aside, my concern is drivers.

I'm assuming they'll still support 3d vision, but this is a brand new GPU and it's possible Nvidia are going to make all sorts of driver changes.
Traditionally they add new feature sets with new architectures, let's hope they don't take anything out.

Also I'm really curious about Nvlink and how that's going to work. Will it be backwardly compatible with old SLI titles? Again, hope so but dangerous to assume.

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#55
Posted 08/18/2018 10:54 AM   
In a perfect world this new architecture would come with a from the ground up rebuilt 3D Vision 3 with core issues fixed....
In a perfect world this new architecture would come with a from the ground up rebuilt 3D Vision 3 with core issues fixed....

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#56
Posted 08/18/2018 11:40 AM   
I would be happy if glasses was just a clip over my regular glasses.
I would be happy if glasses was just a clip over my regular glasses.

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#57
Posted 08/18/2018 12:52 PM   
SLI is almost dead. NVLink will be the new King? [img]https://i2.wp.com/babeltechreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/main-chart.jpg?w=971&ssl=1[/img]
SLI is almost dead. NVLink will be the new King?

Image
SLi might provide questionable performance increase for normal use, but for us 3DV users, the performance increase is substantial in most SLi supported titles. [img]http://www.volnapc.com/uploads/3/0/9/1/30918989/6152204_orig.png[/img] [img]http://www.volnapc.com/uploads/3/0/9/1/30918989/317808_orig.png[/img] [img]http://www.volnapc.com/uploads/3/0/9/1/30918989/3746970_orig.png[/img] NVLink, in my humble understanding, allow direct memory access to other GPU's memory, meaing that 2 cards = double memory. In theory, it *might* even mean that the game sees the 2 cores as a single core, thereby getting rid of SLi compatibility and limitations altogether (inverse hyperthreading). One can hope...
SLi might provide questionable performance increase for normal use, but for us 3DV users, the performance increase is substantial in most SLi supported titles.

Image
Image
Image

NVLink, in my humble understanding, allow direct memory access to other GPU's memory, meaing that 2 cards = double memory. In theory, it *might* even mean that the game sees the 2 cores as a single core, thereby getting rid of SLi compatibility and limitations altogether (inverse hyperthreading).

One can hope...

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#59
Posted 08/18/2018 04:12 PM   
Is NVlink hardware like the Voodoo cards The Gpu and memory is doubled ? Voodoo cards use this didn't need a profile and when adding another card benchmarks doubled
Is NVlink hardware like the Voodoo cards The Gpu and memory is doubled ?

Voodoo cards use this didn't need a profile and when adding another card benchmarks doubled

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#60
Posted 08/18/2018 04:29 PM   
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