amd to release s3d blu ray standards?!
:] competition?!

[url="http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16735/1/"]http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16735/1/[/url]
:] competition?!



http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/16735/1/

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#1
Posted 12/08/2009 04:16 PM   
It's a misread Press release i guess.

Not really about AMD's own stereoscopic technology : which AMD has been unofficially suggesting for years that it would not develop in-house but rather support open standards compatible with everything (like AMD's partnership with Tridef and commercial agreement with iZ3D, and spport for OpenCL and DirectCompute against nvidia's proprietary Physix&Cuda).

I guess what AMD is planning do is to demonstrate support the new Blu-Ray 3D codec based on the latest version of the H.264+Multi-view-coding codec (an upgrade to the current H.264 codec used on Blu-Rays). They will probably show hardware acceleration for that format.
It's a misread Press release i guess.



Not really about AMD's own stereoscopic technology : which AMD has been unofficially suggesting for years that it would not develop in-house but rather support open standards compatible with everything (like AMD's partnership with Tridef and commercial agreement with iZ3D, and spport for OpenCL and DirectCompute against nvidia's proprietary Physix&Cuda).



I guess what AMD is planning do is to demonstrate support the new Blu-Ray 3D codec based on the latest version of the H.264+Multi-view-coding codec (an upgrade to the current H.264 codec used on Blu-Rays). They will probably show hardware acceleration for that format.

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#2
Posted 12/08/2009 04:24 PM   
Soooo... the last largest GPU makers finally climbs on the S3D train, the trend is now confirmed /zzz.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':zzz:' /> .
Joking aside, the fact that AMD is approaching this from the motion picture end and not the gaming end poses the question: does it think the gaming market is not big enough for another S3D player or that it just doesn't know which solution, polarised or shutter, that it should go with at this time?
Soooo... the last largest GPU makers finally climbs on the S3D train, the trend is now confirmed /zzz.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':zzz:' /> .

Joking aside, the fact that AMD is approaching this from the motion picture end and not the gaming end poses the question: does it think the gaming market is not big enough for another S3D player or that it just doesn't know which solution, polarised or shutter, that it should go with at this time?

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#3
Posted 12/08/2009 04:32 PM   
im not sure , but i could see it as amd just trying to start some rumors about them with a s3d program starting , but who knows , all i know is that with amd announcing support of s3d tech its a good thing

i think 2010 will be a good year for s3d , at least im hoping
im not sure , but i could see it as amd just trying to start some rumors about them with a s3d program starting , but who knows , all i know is that with amd announcing support of s3d tech its a good thing



i think 2010 will be a good year for s3d , at least im hoping

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#4
Posted 12/08/2009 04:42 PM   
If AMD does provide S3D support for thier cards then I have lost one of my main reasons for using a NV card. :(
If AMD does provide S3D support for thier cards then I have lost one of my main reasons for using a NV card. :(

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#5
Posted 12/08/2009 04:48 PM   
If AMD wants to be competitive - and it definitely must as a late comer - then it should put out an S3D driver that provides with more compatibility than Nvidia's, ie. planar, shutter, polarisation, mirror images, up/down, all DLPs, and of course all 3D ready TV, openGL, DirectX 5,6,7,8 and above, autoconverge, presets for convergence, programmable delayed sync, and for god sake redesign the ATI forum,( the red font on black background is enough to lose 90% potential buyers). I bet that will pull everybody on their wagon.
If AMD wants to be competitive - and it definitely must as a late comer - then it should put out an S3D driver that provides with more compatibility than Nvidia's, ie. planar, shutter, polarisation, mirror images, up/down, all DLPs, and of course all 3D ready TV, openGL, DirectX 5,6,7,8 and above, autoconverge, presets for convergence, programmable delayed sync, and for god sake redesign the ATI forum,( the red font on black background is enough to lose 90% potential buyers). I bet that will pull everybody on their wagon.

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#6
Posted 12/08/2009 05:03 PM   
Wake up guys, ATi (now AMD) has been supporting Stereo3D for years in their professional FireGL Graphics cards.
And all recent ATi gaming GPUs support Stereo3D
Trackmania Forever and James Cameron's AVATAR work perfectly in 3D on ATi hardware

What AMD does not provide is that magic driver that transforms old games into stereo3D, that's because it's very hard to do with lots of per-game fixes, and there's a very god reason why ATi does not even think about trying and prefer letting 3rd party companies like iZ3D and DDD/Tridef do the work independantly...
...you all know the reputation of ATi drivers don't you ?

nvidia's approach as the market leader is to try new stuff even if it's not standard and needs to be redone later and costs a lot of money.
ATi's approach as the challenger is to stick to official specs and spend very little effort on commercializing new features until they become part of standards.

Somtimes nvidia's approach pays off (Geforce 3/4 shaders, Geforce 8 architecture, SLI during the 1st years)
Sometimes ATi's approach prevails (Radion 97xx series kicking ass of Geforce 5-FX series, limited use for Physix hardware accelerated physics in games and rejection of CUDA by most software developers since it doesn't work with 70% of the market computers)
Wake up guys, ATi (now AMD) has been supporting Stereo3D for years in their professional FireGL Graphics cards.

And all recent ATi gaming GPUs support Stereo3D

Trackmania Forever and James Cameron's AVATAR work perfectly in 3D on ATi hardware



What AMD does not provide is that magic driver that transforms old games into stereo3D, that's because it's very hard to do with lots of per-game fixes, and there's a very god reason why ATi does not even think about trying and prefer letting 3rd party companies like iZ3D and DDD/Tridef do the work independantly...

...you all know the reputation of ATi drivers don't you ?



nvidia's approach as the market leader is to try new stuff even if it's not standard and needs to be redone later and costs a lot of money.

ATi's approach as the challenger is to stick to official specs and spend very little effort on commercializing new features until they become part of standards.



Somtimes nvidia's approach pays off (Geforce 3/4 shaders, Geforce 8 architecture, SLI during the 1st years)

Sometimes ATi's approach prevails (Radion 97xx series kicking ass of Geforce 5-FX series, limited use for Physix hardware accelerated physics in games and rejection of CUDA by most software developers since it doesn't work with 70% of the market computers)

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#7
Posted 12/08/2009 05:20 PM   
If Ati tries to go the gaming route they may be quite behind nvidia

i cant wait to see

oh heres some more at bright side of news

[url="http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/12/8/amd-launches-its-own-3d-support-sort-of.aspx"]http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/...rt-sort-of.aspx[/url]

and dont worry nvidias doing the same blu ray support amd is toting
If Ati tries to go the gaming route they may be quite behind nvidia



i cant wait to see



oh heres some more at bright side of news



http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2009/...rt-sort-of.aspx



and dont worry nvidias doing the same blu ray support amd is toting

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#8
Posted 12/08/2009 05:41 PM   
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961557' date='Dec 8 2009, 07:41 PM']If ATI tries to go the gaming route they may be quite behind nvidia

i cant wait to see[/quote]
You don't have to wait... it's already done.

ATI/AMD won't follow nvidia. They won't make their own brand of glasses and they won't make drivers to convert old non-Stereo3D games into stereo3D like nvidia did almost 10 years ago.
Doing so would cost ATi more money than it would bring in. AMD is already too much in debt since they bought ATI, they wouldn't allow such a thing.
So they don't try to open new expansive niche markets, they follow the big trend of the industry instead of trying to pull it towards them. This is where they know they can cash in big.


We do not know yet if hdmi 1.4 3D feature will have backwards compatibility with current 3D displays. The hardest part is to get content but once you have your hands on a stereoscopic pair of images, it is very easy to program software to convert the images on the fly to any standardized stereoscopic display (except the nvidia 3D vision which is purposely made to be proprietary to nvidia).
[quote name='nhoj333' post='961557' date='Dec 8 2009, 07:41 PM']If ATI tries to go the gaming route they may be quite behind nvidia



i cant wait to see

You don't have to wait... it's already done.



ATI/AMD won't follow nvidia. They won't make their own brand of glasses and they won't make drivers to convert old non-Stereo3D games into stereo3D like nvidia did almost 10 years ago.

Doing so would cost ATi more money than it would bring in. AMD is already too much in debt since they bought ATI, they wouldn't allow such a thing.

So they don't try to open new expansive niche markets, they follow the big trend of the industry instead of trying to pull it towards them. This is where they know they can cash in big.





We do not know yet if hdmi 1.4 3D feature will have backwards compatibility with current 3D displays. The hardest part is to get content but once you have your hands on a stereoscopic pair of images, it is very easy to program software to convert the images on the fly to any standardized stereoscopic display (except the nvidia 3D vision which is purposely made to be proprietary to nvidia).

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#9
Posted 12/08/2009 06:08 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='961573' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:08 PM']You don't have to wait... it's already done.

ATI/AMD won't follow nvidia. They won't make their own brand of glasses and they won't make drivers to convert old non-Stereo3D games into stereo3D like nvidia did almost 10 years ago.
Doing so would cost ATi more money than it would bring in. AMD is already too much in debt since they bought ATI, they wouldn't allow such a thing.
So they don't try to open new expansive niche markets, they follow the big trend of the industry instead of trying to pull it towards them. This is where they know they can cash in big.


We do not know yet if hdmi 1.4 3D feature will have backwards compatibility with current 3D displays. The hardest part is to get content but once you have your hands on a stereoscopic pair of images, it is very easy to program software to convert the images on the fly to any standardized stereoscopic display (except the nvidia 3D vision which is purposely made to be proprietary to nvidia).[/quote]


can I use my existing hardware, 120hz Samsung monitor and my existing 3d vision glasses or maybe a cheaper shutter glasses without using any third party software to play my games in 3d? I know i can use 3rd party solutions on my current setup but tthat's not what I want. so in my book it's not quite there as yet.
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='961573' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:08 PM']You don't have to wait... it's already done.



ATI/AMD won't follow nvidia. They won't make their own brand of glasses and they won't make drivers to convert old non-Stereo3D games into stereo3D like nvidia did almost 10 years ago.

Doing so would cost ATi more money than it would bring in. AMD is already too much in debt since they bought ATI, they wouldn't allow such a thing.

So they don't try to open new expansive niche markets, they follow the big trend of the industry instead of trying to pull it towards them. This is where they know they can cash in big.





We do not know yet if hdmi 1.4 3D feature will have backwards compatibility with current 3D displays. The hardest part is to get content but once you have your hands on a stereoscopic pair of images, it is very easy to program software to convert the images on the fly to any standardized stereoscopic display (except the nvidia 3D vision which is purposely made to be proprietary to nvidia).





can I use my existing hardware, 120hz Samsung monitor and my existing 3d vision glasses or maybe a cheaper shutter glasses without using any third party software to play my games in 3d? I know i can use 3rd party solutions on my current setup but tthat's not what I want. so in my book it's not quite there as yet.

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#10
Posted 12/08/2009 06:44 PM   
[quote name='msm903' post='961597' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:44 PM']can I use my existing hardware, 120hz Samsung monitor and my existing 3d vision glasses or maybe a cheaper shutter glasses without using any third party software to play my games in 3d? I know i can use 3rd party solutions on my current setup but tthat's not what I want. so in my book it's not quite there as yet.[/quote]
No
Your monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, it is a proprietary system and it has been designed specifically by nvidia to be only compatible with the nvidia Geforce 3D Vision system. You should have known it when you bought it, i think.
[quote name='msm903' post='961597' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:44 PM']can I use my existing hardware, 120hz Samsung monitor and my existing 3d vision glasses or maybe a cheaper shutter glasses without using any third party software to play my games in 3d? I know i can use 3rd party solutions on my current setup but tthat's not what I want. so in my book it's not quite there as yet.

No

Your monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, it is a proprietary system and it has been designed specifically by nvidia to be only compatible with the nvidia Geforce 3D Vision system. You should have known it when you bought it, i think.

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#11
Posted 12/08/2009 06:54 PM   
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='961603' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:54 PM']No
Your monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, it is a proprietary system and it has been designed specifically by nvidia to be only compatible with the nvidia Geforce 3D Vision system. You should have known it when you bought it, i think.[/quote]

So you are saying a 120hz monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, especailly other shutter glasses solution?
[quote name='BlackSharkfr' post='961603' date='Dec 8 2009, 01:54 PM']No

Your monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, it is a proprietary system and it has been designed specifically by nvidia to be only compatible with the nvidia Geforce 3D Vision system. You should have known it when you bought it, i think.



So you are saying a 120hz monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, especailly other shutter glasses solution?

Intel Core i9-9820x @ 3.30GHZ
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#12
Posted 12/08/2009 08:27 PM   
[quote name='msm903' post='961665' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:27 PM']So you are saying a 120hz monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, especailly other shutter glasses solution?[/quote]

we will know when the standards are released

but what will ati do when it is released for gaming purposes? only have 3d for the select games made for it like avatar or what?

they said they will support it but how is all im wondering if they arent planning on emulating older games
[quote name='msm903' post='961665' date='Dec 8 2009, 08:27 PM']So you are saying a 120hz monitor is not compatible with 3D standards, especailly other shutter glasses solution?



we will know when the standards are released



but what will ati do when it is released for gaming purposes? only have 3d for the select games made for it like avatar or what?



they said they will support it but how is all im wondering if they arent planning on emulating older games

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#13
Posted 12/08/2009 09:18 PM   
If software developers focused on developing 3d software (esp games) in 3 dimensions it would make it alot simplier to convert the images to S3D. I know it's alot quicker in some cases to do it the other way but quicker doesn't allways pay off in the long run.
If software developers focused on developing 3d software (esp games) in 3 dimensions it would make it alot simplier to convert the images to S3D. I know it's alot quicker in some cases to do it the other way but quicker doesn't allways pay off in the long run.

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#14
Posted 12/08/2009 09:24 PM   
The two current 120Hz LCD monitors and the two 120Hz projectors that are compatible with nvidia 3D vision do not follow any 3D standard (current or future) and will not be compatible with industry standard shutter glasses of 2010 because they do not sync with the glasses in any way. The display acts like a dumb old analog CRT monitor, displaying an image at a precise timing set by the manufacturer and known to the nvidia driver and the sync is performed through a USB connection according to a closed proprietary protocol owned by nvidia. This was great in the old days of the CRT monitor era, since it allowed all the displays on the market to be compatible. But isn't that great if you have to buy completely new hardware.
This has been made on purpose by nvidia in order to make it's nvidia Geforce 3D vision system exclusive to it's own PC GPU brand.

With the Digital displays we now have, this way of doing is considered very unsafe since the reliability of the sync isn't under the responsibility of neither the display manufacturer or the glasses. It adds extra complexity to the system and is very vulnerable to missync or failure, just look at how many people have issues with missync causing flicker on this forum.

The current industry standard for syncing shutter glasses is the VESA 3-pin miniDIN connector that you can find on "3D-Ready" DLP televisions and projectors and allow any brand of emitter (IR, Bluetooth, RF or wired) to send the sync signal to the glasses. This feature requires the TV to know that it is displaying 3D and to be able to identify the left and right eye images. Which is why current "3D ready" shutter displays use half-resolution transmission schemes.
We do not know yet if next year's televisions will have a common emitter included inside the TV or if they will accept/require external emitters but one thing is absolutely certain : the TVs will recieve both images and will know exactly which image belongs to which eye through metadata embedded in the hdmi 1.4 link. So TV manufacturers will have the upper hand on sync format and you can rest 100% assured that they will use it to sell their own brands of shutters to go with their TVs.

If nvidia wants to make it's shutter glasses compatible with next year's shutter TVs, nvidia will have to license it's usb protocol to TV manufacturers before the TVs are finalized.
The two current 120Hz LCD monitors and the two 120Hz projectors that are compatible with nvidia 3D vision do not follow any 3D standard (current or future) and will not be compatible with industry standard shutter glasses of 2010 because they do not sync with the glasses in any way. The display acts like a dumb old analog CRT monitor, displaying an image at a precise timing set by the manufacturer and known to the nvidia driver and the sync is performed through a USB connection according to a closed proprietary protocol owned by nvidia. This was great in the old days of the CRT monitor era, since it allowed all the displays on the market to be compatible. But isn't that great if you have to buy completely new hardware.

This has been made on purpose by nvidia in order to make it's nvidia Geforce 3D vision system exclusive to it's own PC GPU brand.



With the Digital displays we now have, this way of doing is considered very unsafe since the reliability of the sync isn't under the responsibility of neither the display manufacturer or the glasses. It adds extra complexity to the system and is very vulnerable to missync or failure, just look at how many people have issues with missync causing flicker on this forum.



The current industry standard for syncing shutter glasses is the VESA 3-pin miniDIN connector that you can find on "3D-Ready" DLP televisions and projectors and allow any brand of emitter (IR, Bluetooth, RF or wired) to send the sync signal to the glasses. This feature requires the TV to know that it is displaying 3D and to be able to identify the left and right eye images. Which is why current "3D ready" shutter displays use half-resolution transmission schemes.

We do not know yet if next year's televisions will have a common emitter included inside the TV or if they will accept/require external emitters but one thing is absolutely certain : the TVs will recieve both images and will know exactly which image belongs to which eye through metadata embedded in the hdmi 1.4 link. So TV manufacturers will have the upper hand on sync format and you can rest 100% assured that they will use it to sell their own brands of shutters to go with their TVs.



If nvidia wants to make it's shutter glasses compatible with next year's shutter TVs, nvidia will have to license it's usb protocol to TV manufacturers before the TVs are finalized.

Passive 3D forever
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VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#15
Posted 12/08/2009 10:45 PM   
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