Mid gen console comparison
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[quote="SKAUT"]None of the PS4 Pro at the show was running 4K content. People right there been really disappointed. Up-scaled 4K is not what we asking for but something what need to be done. This console can`t handle FullHD with max possible quality so Devs won`t be downgrading graphic just to get higher Res. This is the technology that suppose to be released with first release.[/quote] The Pro's using checkerboard rendering and interpolation to simulate native 4K. The results are reportedly impressive. [quote="Digital Foundry]I observed the pixel structure on a 65-inch Sony 4K display from just two feet away, and then I moved closer. It looked good, seriously good. There is a slight softness compared to the pin-sharp precision of a native 4K presentation, but even close-up, the effect works well - in a living room environment, it should work just fine. In common with the other titles using this technique, the demo code we saw can switch in real-time between 1080p and '4K' at the press of a button, with HDR on and off also selectable. There is a clear, unambiguous night and day difference between 1080p and the 4K mode, which is clearly resolving more than the basic 2x increase in pixel throughput being generated at the base level. In fact, the detail increase is almost revelatory - and that applies equally to both Days Gone and Horizon Zero Dawn.[/quote] http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-three-hours-with-playstation-4-pro
SKAUT said:None of the PS4 Pro at the show was running 4K content. People right there been really disappointed.
Up-scaled 4K is not what we asking for but something what need to be done. This console can`t handle FullHD with max possible quality so Devs won`t be downgrading graphic just to get higher Res. This is the technology that suppose to be released with first release.


The Pro's using checkerboard rendering and interpolation to simulate native 4K. The results are reportedly impressive.

Digital Foundry said:I observed the pixel structure on a 65-inch Sony 4K display from just two feet away, and then I moved closer. It looked good, seriously good. There is a slight softness compared to the pin-sharp precision of a native 4K presentation, but even close-up, the effect works well - in a living room environment, it should work just fine. In common with the other titles using this technique, the demo code we saw can switch in real-time between 1080p and '4K' at the press of a button, with HDR on and off also selectable. There is a clear, unambiguous night and day difference between 1080p and the 4K mode, which is clearly resolving more than the basic 2x increase in pixel throughput being generated at the base level. In fact, the detail increase is almost revelatory - and that applies equally to both Days Gone and Horizon Zero Dawn.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-three-hours-with-playstation-4-pro

4K 55" LG 55EF9500 3D OLED TV for sale! Pickup ONLY in Philadelphia, PA. PM for details.

#16
Posted 09/10/2016 11:41 PM   
Bla bla bla.... 4K "simulated", 20k "SIMULATED" ... Don't get me wrong... it's awesome what they achieved...BUT.... oh, boy there are LOTS of BUTTS! But, is not related to Stereo 3D in any form or way.... (Am I still on 3D Vision Forums?!?!? In any case...) The new trend is the 4K, next it will be the 8K, 16K, 24K, 48K and whatever fancy name they will think for MORE 2D PIXELS! Since Stereo 3D didn't catch up, the so-called "industry" decided to "push more pixels".... Oh, let's not forget the FLOP that the "FUTURE OF IMMERSION - VR" currently is.... This doesn't seem to have "a catch either".... So, as as response.... MORE FREAKINGf PIXELS (it is easier to CODE for a FLAT surface than a proper Stereo 3D World by the way and most "developers" couldn't understand the MATH behind it either. There are exceptions of course). SO MORE F_CKING PIXELS... I bought a 4K "NATIVE" Computer Monitor last year... 2 days later I returned it to Amazon. Sure... pixel "density" was there... but is BORING AS HELL... I take 720p 3D over 4K flat image every single day! (People still ask me why I "struggle" with 3D Surround... well... IS NOT EMULATED... is real, "touchable" and provides the best immersion to date! Sure, more the tech is advanced, the more "problems" you get, but in the end is WORTH IT!) In any case, what PS4 PRO achieved is awesome (even if "fake" - like "fake 3D"). The GTX Titan X (with 11 Terra Flops) is able to push PURE 4K and I bet no reviewer compared any game on a console "emulated" 4K to a TRUE native 4K resolution (the same "app" on the PS4 pro vs PC + Titan X). I bet the results will be "spectacular again"... I just wish they drop this "crap" with consoles vs PC and just go one ROUTE! (but ofc, the money aren't in a 2000+ dollars PC, but in a 400 dollars console...) Sadly, they don't realise that if they drop the "console act" and just focus on one platform (the PC that is used to even develop the freaking "app")... in the end they would get more revenue anyway and technological advancement as well... (It's all about the quick and easy money these days....) PS: Gaming wasn't "founded" as entertainment... quite the opposite... It would be awesome if devs would not SELL us the "REMASTED 100+" edition of a game relased 100001 years ago and actually FOCUS on NEW ideas and new games... But I guess, you can clearly see it (can't you?), the need for an easy "buck"... (Got to respect EA for NOT WANTING TO REMASTER their previous games, instead trying to MAKE and release new games.. Sure BF1 is a rehash more or less.. but is not a FREAKING "so-called Remaster"..) Apparently now, "we Remaster" hardware as well.. PS4 => PS4 PRo and Xbone One to "whatever Scorpio code-name they decided to give"... SAD... REALLY... SAD! (See the trend?) PPS: I work in embedded systems every day and I know exactly what the difference between a PC and a "low-cost" device is... And all I can say is that your 700$ Iphone is not worth more than 100$ to make if you remove all the "intermediates" and all the "FLUFF". It is really a shame to be "limited" in this way (us, as console gamers and PC gamers and users of any kind...)
Bla bla bla.... 4K "simulated", 20k "SIMULATED" ...

Don't get me wrong... it's awesome what they achieved...BUT.... oh, boy there are LOTS of BUTTS!

But, is not related to Stereo 3D in any form or way.... (Am I still on 3D Vision Forums?!?!? In any case...)

The new trend is the 4K, next it will be the 8K, 16K, 24K, 48K and whatever fancy name they will think for MORE 2D PIXELS!

Since Stereo 3D didn't catch up, the so-called "industry" decided to "push more pixels"....
Oh, let's not forget the FLOP that the "FUTURE OF IMMERSION - VR" currently is.... This doesn't seem to have "a catch either".... So, as as response.... MORE FREAKINGf PIXELS
(it is easier to CODE for a FLAT surface than a proper Stereo 3D World by the way and most "developers" couldn't understand the MATH behind it either. There are exceptions of course).

SO MORE F_CKING PIXELS...

I bought a 4K "NATIVE" Computer Monitor last year... 2 days later I returned it to Amazon. Sure... pixel "density" was there... but is BORING AS HELL...
I take 720p 3D over 4K flat image every single day! (People still ask me why I "struggle" with 3D Surround... well... IS NOT EMULATED... is real, "touchable" and provides the best immersion to date! Sure, more the tech is advanced, the more "problems" you get, but in the end is WORTH IT!)

In any case, what PS4 PRO achieved is awesome (even if "fake" - like "fake 3D").
The GTX Titan X (with 11 Terra Flops) is able to push PURE 4K and I bet no reviewer compared any game on a console "emulated" 4K to a TRUE native 4K resolution (the same "app" on the PS4 pro vs PC + Titan X). I bet the results will be "spectacular again"...

I just wish they drop this "crap" with consoles vs PC and just go one ROUTE! (but ofc, the money aren't in a 2000+ dollars PC, but in a 400 dollars console...)

Sadly, they don't realise that if they drop the "console act" and just focus on one platform (the PC that is used to even develop the freaking "app")... in the end they would get more revenue anyway and technological advancement as well... (It's all about the quick and easy money these days....)

PS:
Gaming wasn't "founded" as entertainment... quite the opposite... It would be awesome if devs would not SELL us the "REMASTED 100+" edition of a game relased 100001 years ago and actually FOCUS on NEW ideas and new games... But I guess, you can clearly see it (can't you?), the need for an easy "buck"... (Got to respect EA for NOT WANTING TO REMASTER their previous games, instead trying to MAKE and release new games.. Sure BF1 is a rehash more or less.. but is not a FREAKING "so-called Remaster"..)

Apparently now, "we Remaster" hardware as well.. PS4 => PS4 PRo and Xbone One to "whatever Scorpio code-name they decided to give"...

SAD... REALLY... SAD!

(See the trend?)

PPS:
I work in embedded systems every day and I know exactly what the difference between a PC and a "low-cost" device is... And all I can say is that your 700$ Iphone is not worth more than 100$ to make if you remove all the "intermediates" and all the "FLUFF". It is really a shame to be "limited" in this way (us, as console gamers and PC gamers and users of any kind...)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#17
Posted 09/11/2016 12:08 AM   
Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.
Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.

4K 55" LG 55EF9500 3D OLED TV for sale! Pickup ONLY in Philadelphia, PA. PM for details.

#18
Posted 09/11/2016 12:23 AM   
[quote="ChronicHedgehog"]Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.[/quote] +1000 to that! That would be freaking awesome! Edit: With the above post, my intention wasn't to "bash" anything! Quite the opposite! Imagine what the technology could achieve if we would just focus ON A COMMON platform !!! What Sony did for their PS4 Pro could be used on a PC which has more computing power! We would have 8K-16K today;) (And more power for Proper Geometry 3D as well!)
ChronicHedgehog said:Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.


+1000 to that! That would be freaking awesome!

Edit:
With the above post, my intention wasn't to "bash" anything! Quite the opposite!
Imagine what the technology could achieve if we would just focus ON A COMMON platform !!! What Sony did for their PS4 Pro could be used on a PC which has more computing power! We would have 8K-16K today;) (And more power for Proper Geometry 3D as well!)

1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc


My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com

(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)

#19
Posted 09/11/2016 12:28 AM   
I respectfully disagree, we need competition to spur growth. If it was up to Nvidia they would do as little as possible. However, if they implement checkerboard rendering in a manner similar to PSPro we could get double the performance with 4K 3D! They could market checkerboard rendering and integer scaling as "Tomorrows 4k solutions for today!"
I respectfully disagree, we need competition to spur growth. If it was up to Nvidia they would do as little as possible. However, if they implement checkerboard rendering in a manner similar to PSPro we could get double the performance with 4K 3D!

They could market checkerboard rendering and integer scaling as "Tomorrows 4k solutions for today!"

4K 55" LG 55EF9500 3D OLED TV for sale! Pickup ONLY in Philadelphia, PA. PM for details.

#20
Posted 09/11/2016 01:14 AM   
Everybody neglected 3D pushing content with no quality (aka Fake Stereo) and consumers got this impression that 3D sucks big time. Now we going to get "simulated" Ultra Resolution and every console geek will say that they are not impressed or even worse if they say that it`s great and progress will stop at this point (at least for this market). We need higher Res in 3D and we need that for VR right now. So I`m thinking that fooling ourselves with imitations of the real thing is not the way and Nvidia knows about it (CM cough :).
Everybody neglected 3D pushing content with no quality (aka Fake Stereo) and consumers got this impression that 3D sucks big time.
Now we going to get "simulated" Ultra Resolution and every console geek will say that they are not impressed or even worse if they say that it`s great and progress will stop at this point (at least for this market).

We need higher Res in 3D and we need that for VR right now. So I`m thinking that fooling ourselves with imitations of the real thing is not the way and Nvidia knows about it (CM cough :).
[quote="helifax"][quote="ChronicHedgehog"]Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.[/quote] +1000 to that! That would be freaking awesome! Edit: With the above post, my intention wasn't to "bash" anything! Quite the opposite! Imagine what the technology could achieve if we would just focus ON A COMMON platform !!! What Sony did for their PS4 Pro could be used on a PC which has more computing power! We would have 8K-16K today;) (And more power for Proper Geometry 3D as well!)[/quote] That was my train of through as well, when talking about the dedicated scalers on the consoles earlier. Good upscaling and fixed target framerates are big for 3d vision. We could make the switch to 4k screens and still get as good looking 3d content as possible while maintaining 120 Hz at all times. It would be glorious.
helifax said:
ChronicHedgehog said:Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision. Speaking of which, I really wish Nvidia would implement integer scaling already so we could get perfect 1080p60 3D on 4k passive displays.


+1000 to that! That would be freaking awesome!

Edit:
With the above post, my intention wasn't to "bash" anything! Quite the opposite!
Imagine what the technology could achieve if we would just focus ON A COMMON platform !!! What Sony did for their PS4 Pro could be used on a PC which has more computing power! We would have 8K-16K today;) (And more power for Proper Geometry 3D as well!)


That was my train of through as well, when talking about the dedicated scalers on the consoles earlier. Good upscaling and fixed target framerates are big for 3d vision. We could make the switch to 4k screens and still get as good looking 3d content as possible while maintaining 120 Hz at all times. It would be glorious.

#22
Posted 09/11/2016 11:09 AM   
[quote="ChronicHedgehog"]Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision.[/quote] This could benefit both consoles and PCs. For example, with 4K 3D gaming, the biggest performance gain for all platforms would be use of non-square/round render pixels in SBS and TAB 3D display formats, which would avoid the current practice of throwing away half of the rendered 4K data (doubling 4K 3D performance), and could provide better image quality.
ChronicHedgehog said:Alternate rendering methods are of great interest to me since they can help us get higher frame rates with 3D vision.
This could benefit both consoles and PCs.

For example, with 4K 3D gaming, the biggest performance gain for all platforms would be use of non-square/round render pixels in SBS and TAB 3D display formats, which would avoid the current practice of throwing away half of the rendered 4K data (doubling 4K 3D performance), and could provide better image quality.

#23
Posted 09/11/2016 01:16 PM   
[quote="SKAUT"]Everybody neglected 3D pushing content with no quality (aka Fake Stereo) and consumers got this impression that 3D sucks big time. Now we going to get "simulated" Ultra Resolution and every console geek will say that they are not impressed or even worse if they say that it`s great and progress will stop at this point (at least for this market). We need higher Res in 3D and we need that for VR right now. So I`m thinking that fooling ourselves with imitations of the real thing is not the way and Nvidia knows about it (CM cough :).[/quote] We're talking about getting better performance out of *real* 3D, not simulating it. Obviously, these solutions (checkerboard, integer, single-pass stereo) are stopgaps until we can simply brute force at preferred settings. The issues at hand is because modern games generally push graphics technology -- and we're effectively running them twice, this results in us *always* being *far* behind the curve. Right now there's a HUGE discrepancy between display tech and GPU power. Some people are happy to run 2D games at 4k30. Temporal resolution (frame rate) is incredibly important to me, if I was content with 30fps I would stick with consoles. As usual, gamers are quick to dismiss anything less than optimal even if it's utterly unattainable by todays standards. Digital Foundry's the go-to source for this kind of thing and if they say the Pros checkerboard rendering is pound for pound impressive then I believe them. High end GPU's, SLI, 3D, 4k resolution and 60+ fps all require certain trade offs. A wise man once said "PC gaming is all about options" and seeing so many PC gamers argue *against* this is downright bizarre. If OPTIONAL checkerboard rendering helps me hit the frame rates I desire at high resolutions then what's it to you? Poor implementation of 3D killed the industry, agreed. Tons of shoddy film conversions, greedy vendors and technology launched WELL before its time all contributed to market demise and its current niche. TBH, I don't think it was ready for prime time before the GTX 970 and passive 4K displays running at 1080p, and this statement may even be a little generous.
SKAUT said:Everybody neglected 3D pushing content with no quality (aka Fake Stereo) and consumers got this impression that 3D sucks big time.
Now we going to get "simulated" Ultra Resolution and every console geek will say that they are not impressed or even worse if they say that it`s great and progress will stop at this point (at least for this market).

We need higher Res in 3D and we need that for VR right now. So I`m thinking that fooling ourselves with imitations of the real thing is not the way and Nvidia knows about it (CM cough :).


We're talking about getting better performance out of *real* 3D, not simulating it. Obviously, these solutions (checkerboard, integer, single-pass stereo) are stopgaps until we can simply brute force at preferred settings. The issues at hand is because modern games generally push graphics technology -- and we're effectively running them twice, this results in us *always* being *far* behind the curve.

Right now there's a HUGE discrepancy between display tech and GPU power. Some people are happy to run 2D games at 4k30. Temporal resolution (frame rate) is incredibly important to me, if I was content with 30fps I would stick with consoles.

As usual, gamers are quick to dismiss anything less than optimal even if it's utterly unattainable by todays standards. Digital Foundry's the go-to source for this kind of thing and if they say the Pros checkerboard rendering is pound for pound impressive then I believe them.

High end GPU's, SLI, 3D, 4k resolution and 60+ fps all require certain trade offs. A wise man once said "PC gaming is all about options" and seeing so many PC gamers argue *against* this is downright bizarre. If OPTIONAL checkerboard rendering helps me hit the frame rates I desire at high resolutions then what's it to you?

Poor implementation of 3D killed the industry, agreed. Tons of shoddy film conversions, greedy vendors and technology launched WELL before its time all contributed to market demise and its current niche. TBH, I don't think it was ready for prime time before the GTX 970 and passive 4K displays running at 1080p, and this statement may even be a little generous.

4K 55" LG 55EF9500 3D OLED TV for sale! Pickup ONLY in Philadelphia, PA. PM for details.

#24
Posted 09/11/2016 01:34 PM   
[quote="helifax"] I take 720p 3D over 4K flat image every single day! [/quote] This x100000. I truly don't understand why 3D isnt a bigger thing for people, it's such a [i]profound[/i] difference from 2D. People bitch about different types of AA etc, things that makes a really tiny difference (on the whole) and neglect stereoscopic 3D completely as a "fad" etc. Crazy.
helifax said:
I take 720p 3D over 4K flat image every single day!


This x100000.

I truly don't understand why 3D isnt a bigger thing for people, it's such a profound difference from 2D. People bitch about different types of AA etc, things that makes a really tiny difference (on the whole) and neglect stereoscopic 3D completely as a "fad" etc. Crazy.

Computer: i7 2600K @4.8GHz / Asus Sabertooth P67 Rev3 / 32GB Corsair Vengeance / GTX 980ti / 34" Samsung S34E790C
Projectors: BenQ W700 / BenQ MH741

#25
Posted 09/11/2016 02:08 PM   
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