All new technologies are expensive when they're new (and even though "shutter glasses" aren't exactly new technology, 3d Vision as a mass-market product is). Just look at the insane prices Blu-Ray players were going for a year ago, now you can get one for under $200...and I'm willing to bet that'll be closer to $100 by 2010. Hell, when VCRs were new they sold for $400 each.... same with microwave ovens. It works that way because that's the only business model a manufacturer can afford to bet on when a product is new-to-market and they can't depend on quantity sales to make the venture profitable, so they have to jack up the cost per item to make ends meet until the product takes off.
Think of it this way... assume it costs nvidia $100,000 to make & market nvidia 3d Vision this year (*totally* made up figure!). To break even, nvidia would have to sell 500 sets at $200/each (seems like a reasonable estimate for a new "niche" product). But once the product takes off and they can count on sales of 5000/year, then they can make a profit at just $20 per set.
Anyway, I personally don't think the cost of the glasses is *too* terribly unreasonable..... it's the cost of the monitor that's holding EVERYTHING back. :">
All new technologies are expensive when they're new (and even though "shutter glasses" aren't exactly new technology, 3d Vision as a mass-market product is). Just look at the insane prices Blu-Ray players were going for a year ago, now you can get one for under $200...and I'm willing to bet that'll be closer to $100 by 2010. Hell, when VCRs were new they sold for $400 each.... same with microwave ovens. It works that way because that's the only business model a manufacturer can afford to bet on when a product is new-to-market and they can't depend on quantity sales to make the venture profitable, so they have to jack up the cost per item to make ends meet until the product takes off.
Think of it this way... assume it costs nvidia $100,000 to make & market nvidia 3d Vision this year (*totally* made up figure!). To break even, nvidia would have to sell 500 sets at $200/each (seems like a reasonable estimate for a new "niche" product). But once the product takes off and they can count on sales of 5000/year, then they can make a profit at just $20 per set.
Anyway, I personally don't think the cost of the glasses is *too* terribly unreasonable..... it's the cost of the monitor that's holding EVERYTHING back. :">
[quote name='Chris-NYC' post='572056' date='Jul 30 2009, 01:07 PM']I agree with this. Yes, we're still in the very early stages of mainstream adoption, but mainstream adoption of 3d is coming. This is not a "fad" like anaglyph movies were in the 70's and again in the 80's, this is the real deal. TV makers and major electronics manufacturers are pioneering brand new 3d technology that they will mass-market within the next few years, and nvidia has gone all out in trying to break 3d into the gaming market.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Stereoscopic 3d is coming, [b]it's inevitable[/b] just like HD was inevitable 10 years ago. Think about it -- in 1999 almost nobody had a HiDef Television much less a flat-panel Plasma or LCD. Now every Tom, Dick, & Harry has a 40" HD LCD in every room of their house, practically every channel broadcasts in HD, & Blu-Ray has replaced DVD as the gold standard with content we couldn't have dreamed of in the 90's. 10 years from now we'll all be gaming and watching TV & movies in stereoscopic 3d in every household. We're just the first wave. :)[/quote]
All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
[quote name='Chris-NYC' post='572056' date='Jul 30 2009, 01:07 PM']I agree with this. Yes, we're still in the very early stages of mainstream adoption, but mainstream adoption of 3d is coming. This is not a "fad" like anaglyph movies were in the 70's and again in the 80's, this is the real deal. TV makers and major electronics manufacturers are pioneering brand new 3d technology that they will mass-market within the next few years, and nvidia has gone all out in trying to break 3d into the gaming market.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Stereoscopic 3d is coming, it's inevitable just like HD was inevitable 10 years ago. Think about it -- in 1999 almost nobody had a HiDef Television much less a flat-panel Plasma or LCD. Now every Tom, Dick, & Harry has a 40" HD LCD in every room of their house, practically every channel broadcasts in HD, & Blu-Ray has replaced DVD as the gold standard with content we couldn't have dreamed of in the 90's. 10 years from now we'll all be gaming and watching TV & movies in stereoscopic 3d in every household. We're just the first wave. :)
All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:43 PM']All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D[/quote]
We also need the 3d movies out there. This is however gaining momentum, especially in 3d animated movies (the one area where its currently possible to retro fit proper 3d), the studios like it for a number of reasons, partially as it makes it alot harder to pirate with a camcorder. The greater numbers of suitiable monitors along with suitiable displays will hopefull make this a mainstream reality.
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:43 PM']All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
We also need the 3d movies out there. This is however gaining momentum, especially in 3d animated movies (the one area where its currently possible to retro fit proper 3d), the studios like it for a number of reasons, partially as it makes it alot harder to pirate with a camcorder. The greater numbers of suitiable monitors along with suitiable displays will hopefull make this a mainstream reality.
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer.[/quote]
Yeah, but really sloooww, because...
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D.[/quote]
really? do we? Also in Europe and Asia? DLPs never made it to that part of the world where real estate is expansive. And concrning the main market - computer TFTs we have ONE model - Hooray!! (The Viewsonic may be available statesside but then again the term "market penetration" should be viewn from an international scale, shouldn't it? And Plasma are so passe - too much current consumption the furure is LCD (still, again, I wouldn't mind, if those Plasmas were actually available on an international scale)
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount[/quote]
And this is exactly where my grieve lies - nvidia has set arbitrary limitations of which displays or projectors should be considered "3D-ready" which immediately leads to the hen-egg problem. So my call for nvidia was - if they claim to want to revolutionize the 3D experience and wave the flag - they better open up the market, pleeeeeaase!
Do NOT shut off the shutters (/pardon the pun) if the display is NOT one of the very few supported by the drivers! Do NOT limit anaglyph colors to red/cyan! And the list goes on.
You just need to look where we are at the moment in these very forums:
- peolple desperately have benn asking for XP support since the start (countless threads)
- people desperately trying to get "superbowl" or ColorCode3D galsses to work ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=98878"]here[/url])
- peolple are trying (successfully) to make their own hardware which enables the glasses to sync on not supported DLP projectors ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=103008"]here[/url] and [url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3441"]here[/url] - heck, forced to use drivers of the competition!)
- people are trying to get the functionality back the very same core driver stack offerde in the past ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=95306&hl=registry+settings"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=102810"]here[/url]
As much as I would love to share your excitement about the 3Dvision concept, at this time I simply cannot and I say this being into stereoscopy from the very beginning - as apparently MarkRY was, do you own the Metabyte EyeScream?... maybe we can meet in 5 years when every LCD is 120Hz but then the 3D vision glasses will not be alone out there....and maybe even better technologies around the corner.
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer.
Yeah, but really sloooww, because...
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D.
really? do we? Also in Europe and Asia? DLPs never made it to that part of the world where real estate is expansive. And concrning the main market - computer TFTs we have ONE model - Hooray!! (The Viewsonic may be available statesside but then again the term "market penetration" should be viewn from an international scale, shouldn't it? And Plasma are so passe - too much current consumption the furure is LCD (still, again, I wouldn't mind, if those Plasmas were actually available on an international scale)
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount
And this is exactly where my grieve lies - nvidia has set arbitrary limitations of which displays or projectors should be considered "3D-ready" which immediately leads to the hen-egg problem. So my call for nvidia was - if they claim to want to revolutionize the 3D experience and wave the flag - they better open up the market, pleeeeeaase!
Do NOT shut off the shutters (/pardon the pun) if the display is NOT one of the very few supported by the drivers! Do NOT limit anaglyph colors to red/cyan! And the list goes on.
You just need to look where we are at the moment in these very forums:
- peolple desperately have benn asking for XP support since the start (countless threads)
- people desperately trying to get "superbowl" or ColorCode3D galsses to work (here)
- peolple are trying (successfully) to make their own hardware which enables the glasses to sync on not supported DLP projectors (here and here - heck, forced to use drivers of the competition!)
- people are trying to get the functionality back the very same core driver stack offerde in the past (here and here
As much as I would love to share your excitement about the 3Dvision concept, at this time I simply cannot and I say this being into stereoscopy from the very beginning - as apparently MarkRY was, do you own the Metabyte EyeScream?... maybe we can meet in 5 years when every LCD is 120Hz but then the 3D vision glasses will not be alone out there....and maybe even better technologies around the corner.
While I agree that all markets should usually be considered, in this case, as was the case with "HD", the US market is crucial because that's usually the first market to adopt new entertainment technologies aside from Japan, where all these 3D display techs are also available. Once the US grabs onto mainstream 3D, the rest of the world will follow suit not long after. That's my purpose for focusing on the US market when talking about the expansion of 3D, because it will all cascade after it catches on there.
And as with what Cen4 said, 3D movies are also growing in number. They are no longer the novelty they were in the 70's and 80's, they are becoming a serious medium who is just now starting to emerge from childrens' movies and entering the mainstream movie realm.
As far as your limitation concern, quadro, there shouldn't be a need to worry. Once the mainstream entertainment conglomerates decide on which type of tech should become mainstream (most likely a tech that will be standardized upon 120 Hz+ displays), they'll do whatever they need to do to make it happen and push it like crazy. Nvidia is the niche caterer, they suck at selling new tech to mainstream unless that tech is vital to a huge market (GPUs, games). Once enough serious 3D theatrical releases such as Avatar gain enough popularity and it becomes clear the public wants it at home, the US advertisement space will begin to be absolutely flooded with stereoscopic exposure. Remember when you couldn't go a single commercial break during primetime without seeing at least one ad for HDTV? Yeah get ready for that again lol. As that happens, 3D-ready will start to become standard in all TVs and it will domino from there with multiple choices in shutter devices, plenty of movies, etc. I'm thinking all of this will happen within the next 5-10 years, much like we were almost 10 years ago when HD was first starting to be introduced to the masses.
While I agree that all markets should usually be considered, in this case, as was the case with "HD", the US market is crucial because that's usually the first market to adopt new entertainment technologies aside from Japan, where all these 3D display techs are also available. Once the US grabs onto mainstream 3D, the rest of the world will follow suit not long after. That's my purpose for focusing on the US market when talking about the expansion of 3D, because it will all cascade after it catches on there.
And as with what Cen4 said, 3D movies are also growing in number. They are no longer the novelty they were in the 70's and 80's, they are becoming a serious medium who is just now starting to emerge from childrens' movies and entering the mainstream movie realm.
As far as your limitation concern, quadro, there shouldn't be a need to worry. Once the mainstream entertainment conglomerates decide on which type of tech should become mainstream (most likely a tech that will be standardized upon 120 Hz+ displays), they'll do whatever they need to do to make it happen and push it like crazy. Nvidia is the niche caterer, they suck at selling new tech to mainstream unless that tech is vital to a huge market (GPUs, games). Once enough serious 3D theatrical releases such as Avatar gain enough popularity and it becomes clear the public wants it at home, the US advertisement space will begin to be absolutely flooded with stereoscopic exposure. Remember when you couldn't go a single commercial break during primetime without seeing at least one ad for HDTV? Yeah get ready for that again lol. As that happens, 3D-ready will start to become standard in all TVs and it will domino from there with multiple choices in shutter devices, plenty of movies, etc. I'm thinking all of this will happen within the next 5-10 years, much like we were almost 10 years ago when HD was first starting to be introduced to the masses.
[quote name='magicandy' post='573804' date='Aug 4 2009, 02:57 AM']While I agree that all markets should usually be considered, in this case, as was the case with "HD", the US market is crucial because that's usually the first market to adopt new entertainment technologies aside from Japan, where all these 3D display techs are also available.[/quote]
Pardon me wrong but the native HD formats are actually all based around PAL framerates (25P, 50i, 50psf, 50P). So they are not originating from Jpanese or US broadcast format which is in both cases - as you surely know - NTSC.
While I agree that HD saw a earlier (because forced) adoption , this was mainly because of the drawbacks of the NTSC formats (lower resolution, unstable color etc.) Also this hastely adoption has also lead to now being confronted with unreasonable "weird" HD framerates as 23.96, 29.97 etc which were neccessary not to break backward compatibility with older infrastructure, so we are starting the whole mess with 2 broadcast systems all over again, wich actually would have become needless with proper HD (because no color sync vector needed) ... But I'm straying too much OT here, it's just my grief working in the broadcast industry and having to deal with the consequences and difficulties of matching the unmatchable...
I also doubt that in the current economical situation allows for successful marketing by focussing primarily and especially on the US market.
As said, the BIG plus in the use of shutter glasses is a general compatibility with EVERY display technology (albeit with inferior results on some) since they do not depend on special monitors, screens, dual projection and the like - and it's a pity that the 3Dvision driver voids explicitly this advantage.
So even though I do not share the dissapointment with the initial post that the technology ahs not changed since the introduction of the Metabyte's I am dissapointed that the [i]approach[/i] in itself hasn't changed.
So, I agree that the glasses are too expensive now: back in the early days of Metabyte this was a [i]real[/i] niche product and I payed 200,- USD then - but today these glasses should run 50,- to 75,- not more - I mean look what sort of tech products you can get in this price range.
Since you always need a nvidia card to run the glasses they could start to make subsidized bundles with grafix cards where you get them at an effective price of 50,- plus compared to the board without the glasses. Also there should be extension or family kits with 3 or 4 glasses available at an attractive discount as well.
It's certainly doable if the product could be sold in quantities, which is possible to my believe:
Imagine if EVERY TV set, projector or monitor out there could be run to some extent with the 3D vision shutters placed at a tempting "grab and buy" price: the glasses would sell much better than now, I could see a lot of people giving it a try just out of curiosity, the system should soon see wide propagation. #
Everyone could have an affordable first 3D experience - with inefrior quality than a "real" 3D ready display, but maybe like it so much that they would more willingly rush to get a better display for 3D - the demand was immediately there. Now just imagine what [i]could[/i] happen if the manufacturers were facing the demand of a broad buyership making their purchase decision on this feature or explicitely asking for it. Also imagine the marketing effect of companies bringing displays with "improved", "even better" or "native" Stereo3D! I think the reason why we do not see 3D ready displays is because the manufacturers fear the investment in a niche market - why should they care and increase the price of a product for a feature nobody can use? Placing the glasses more agressively and removing the limitations would catalyse the market situation immediately and with more "real" 3D ready displays the market for glasses would grow again.
I am asking you: would you buy the glasses if you hadn't a display at the current price? (well, I did, but that's another story) Would you invest the premium into a 120Hz display to maybe get glasses at a later point? But how if those glasses were 50 bucks and you could test drive them on your existing PC monitor or TV set? And I bet this is the price we see them at in 2 years from now, if not lower.
Somehow nvidia has understood this - hence the introfduction of the 3Discover - but anaglyph was not able to propagate 3D for almost a century so why should it now.
[quote name='magicandy' post='573804' date='Aug 4 2009, 02:57 AM']While I agree that all markets should usually be considered, in this case, as was the case with "HD", the US market is crucial because that's usually the first market to adopt new entertainment technologies aside from Japan, where all these 3D display techs are also available.
Pardon me wrong but the native HD formats are actually all based around PAL framerates (25P, 50i, 50psf, 50P). So they are not originating from Jpanese or US broadcast format which is in both cases - as you surely know - NTSC.
While I agree that HD saw a earlier (because forced) adoption , this was mainly because of the drawbacks of the NTSC formats (lower resolution, unstable color etc.) Also this hastely adoption has also lead to now being confronted with unreasonable "weird" HD framerates as 23.96, 29.97 etc which were neccessary not to break backward compatibility with older infrastructure, so we are starting the whole mess with 2 broadcast systems all over again, wich actually would have become needless with proper HD (because no color sync vector needed) ... But I'm straying too much OT here, it's just my grief working in the broadcast industry and having to deal with the consequences and difficulties of matching the unmatchable...
I also doubt that in the current economical situation allows for successful marketing by focussing primarily and especially on the US market.
As said, the BIG plus in the use of shutter glasses is a general compatibility with EVERY display technology (albeit with inferior results on some) since they do not depend on special monitors, screens, dual projection and the like - and it's a pity that the 3Dvision driver voids explicitly this advantage.
So even though I do not share the dissapointment with the initial post that the technology ahs not changed since the introduction of the Metabyte's I am dissapointed that the approach in itself hasn't changed.
So, I agree that the glasses are too expensive now: back in the early days of Metabyte this was a real niche product and I payed 200,- USD then - but today these glasses should run 50,- to 75,- not more - I mean look what sort of tech products you can get in this price range.
Since you always need a nvidia card to run the glasses they could start to make subsidized bundles with grafix cards where you get them at an effective price of 50,- plus compared to the board without the glasses. Also there should be extension or family kits with 3 or 4 glasses available at an attractive discount as well.
It's certainly doable if the product could be sold in quantities, which is possible to my believe:
Imagine if EVERY TV set, projector or monitor out there could be run to some extent with the 3D vision shutters placed at a tempting "grab and buy" price: the glasses would sell much better than now, I could see a lot of people giving it a try just out of curiosity, the system should soon see wide propagation. #
Everyone could have an affordable first 3D experience - with inefrior quality than a "real" 3D ready display, but maybe like it so much that they would more willingly rush to get a better display for 3D - the demand was immediately there. Now just imagine what could happen if the manufacturers were facing the demand of a broad buyership making their purchase decision on this feature or explicitely asking for it. Also imagine the marketing effect of companies bringing displays with "improved", "even better" or "native" Stereo3D! I think the reason why we do not see 3D ready displays is because the manufacturers fear the investment in a niche market - why should they care and increase the price of a product for a feature nobody can use? Placing the glasses more agressively and removing the limitations would catalyse the market situation immediately and with more "real" 3D ready displays the market for glasses would grow again.
I am asking you: would you buy the glasses if you hadn't a display at the current price? (well, I did, but that's another story) Would you invest the premium into a 120Hz display to maybe get glasses at a later point? But how if those glasses were 50 bucks and you could test drive them on your existing PC monitor or TV set? And I bet this is the price we see them at in 2 years from now, if not lower.
Somehow nvidia has understood this - hence the introfduction of the 3Discover - but anaglyph was not able to propagate 3D for almost a century so why should it now.
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Think of it this way... assume it costs nvidia $100,000 to make & market nvidia 3d Vision this year (*totally* made up figure!). To break even, nvidia would have to sell 500 sets at $200/each (seems like a reasonable estimate for a new "niche" product). But once the product takes off and they can count on sales of 5000/year, then they can make a profit at just $20 per set.
Anyway, I personally don't think the cost of the glasses is *too* terribly unreasonable..... it's the cost of the monitor that's holding EVERYTHING back. :">
Think of it this way... assume it costs nvidia $100,000 to make & market nvidia 3d Vision this year (*totally* made up figure!). To break even, nvidia would have to sell 500 sets at $200/each (seems like a reasonable estimate for a new "niche" product). But once the product takes off and they can count on sales of 5000/year, then they can make a profit at just $20 per set.
Anyway, I personally don't think the cost of the glasses is *too* terribly unreasonable..... it's the cost of the monitor that's holding EVERYTHING back. :">
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I've said it before, I'll say it again: Stereoscopic 3d is coming, [b]it's inevitable[/b] just like HD was inevitable 10 years ago. Think about it -- in 1999 almost nobody had a HiDef Television much less a flat-panel Plasma or LCD. Now every Tom, Dick, & Harry has a 40" HD LCD in every room of their house, practically every channel broadcasts in HD, & Blu-Ray has replaced DVD as the gold standard with content we couldn't have dreamed of in the 90's. 10 years from now we'll all be gaming and watching TV & movies in stereoscopic 3d in every household. We're just the first wave. :)[/quote]
All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
I've said it before, I'll say it again: Stereoscopic 3d is coming, it's inevitable just like HD was inevitable 10 years ago. Think about it -- in 1999 almost nobody had a HiDef Television much less a flat-panel Plasma or LCD. Now every Tom, Dick, & Harry has a 40" HD LCD in every room of their house, practically every channel broadcasts in HD, & Blu-Ray has replaced DVD as the gold standard with content we couldn't have dreamed of in the 90's. 10 years from now we'll all be gaming and watching TV & movies in stereoscopic 3d in every household. We're just the first wave. :)
All this and then some. The only thing really left to wait for is 3d-ready-display market penetration, and with more and more display technologies starting to implement it, we're getting closer. We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D. Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount (probably ~10% or more, which is probably still a few years away), we're going to start seeing the major TV and film labels fully push mainstream 3D shutter glasses, to a degree that would make Nvidia wet their pants. They will absolutely flood the market and advertising space, just like they did with "HD". The US entertainment companies don't **** around when they know what they want, and once they decide to implement 3D into the mainstream, that will be that and the rest of the entertained world will follow suit.....and I can't wait :D
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
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Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D[/quote]
We also need the 3d movies out there. This is however gaining momentum, especially in 3d animated movies (the one area where its currently possible to retro fit proper 3d), the studios like it for a number of reasons, partially as it makes it alot harder to pirate with a camcorder. The greater numbers of suitiable monitors along with suitiable displays will hopefull make this a mainstream reality.
Maybe once that happens we'll start to see 3D displays which don't use glasses come down in price :D
We also need the 3d movies out there. This is however gaining momentum, especially in 3d animated movies (the one area where its currently possible to retro fit proper 3d), the studios like it for a number of reasons, partially as it makes it alot harder to pirate with a camcorder. The greater numbers of suitiable monitors along with suitiable displays will hopefull make this a mainstream reality.
Yeah, but really sloooww, because...
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D.[/quote]
really? do we? Also in Europe and Asia? DLPs never made it to that part of the world where real estate is expansive. And concrning the main market - computer TFTs we have ONE model - Hooray!! (The Viewsonic may be available statesside but then again the term "market penetration" should be viewn from an international scale, shouldn't it? And Plasma are so passe - too much current consumption the furure is LCD (still, again, I wouldn't mind, if those Plasmas were actually available on an international scale)
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount[/quote]
And this is exactly where my grieve lies - nvidia has set arbitrary limitations of which displays or projectors should be considered "3D-ready" which immediately leads to the hen-egg problem. So my call for nvidia was - if they claim to want to revolutionize the 3D experience and wave the flag - they better open up the market, pleeeeeaase!
Do NOT shut off the shutters (/pardon the pun) if the display is NOT one of the very few supported by the drivers! Do NOT limit anaglyph colors to red/cyan! And the list goes on.
You just need to look where we are at the moment in these very forums:
- peolple desperately have benn asking for XP support since the start (countless threads)
- people desperately trying to get "superbowl" or ColorCode3D galsses to work ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=98878"]here[/url])
- peolple are trying (successfully) to make their own hardware which enables the glasses to sync on not supported DLP projectors ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=103008"]here[/url] and [url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3441"]here[/url] - heck, forced to use drivers of the competition!)
- people are trying to get the functionality back the very same core driver stack offerde in the past ([url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=95306&hl=registry+settings"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=102810"]here[/url]
As much as I would love to share your excitement about the 3Dvision concept, at this time I simply cannot and I say this being into stereoscopy from the very beginning - as apparently MarkRY was, do you own the Metabyte EyeScream?... maybe we can meet in 5 years when every LCD is 120Hz but then the 3D vision glasses will not be alone out there....and maybe even better technologies around the corner.
Yeah, but really sloooww, because...
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']We already have 3D ready displays for every single mainstream display technology except for television LCDs. We've got DLP TVs, DLP Projectors, LCD monitors and now even some Plasma displays support 3D.
really? do we? Also in Europe and Asia? DLPs never made it to that part of the world where real estate is expansive. And concrning the main market - computer TFTs we have ONE model - Hooray!! (The Viewsonic may be available statesside but then again the term "market penetration" should be viewn from an international scale, shouldn't it? And Plasma are so passe - too much current consumption the furure is LCD (still, again, I wouldn't mind, if those Plasmas were actually available on an international scale)
[quote name='magicandy' post='573683' date='Aug 3 2009, 09:43 PM']Once the 3D-ready-display market penetration hits a reasonable amount
And this is exactly where my grieve lies - nvidia has set arbitrary limitations of which displays or projectors should be considered "3D-ready" which immediately leads to the hen-egg problem. So my call for nvidia was - if they claim to want to revolutionize the 3D experience and wave the flag - they better open up the market, pleeeeeaase!
Do NOT shut off the shutters (/pardon the pun) if the display is NOT one of the very few supported by the drivers! Do NOT limit anaglyph colors to red/cyan! And the list goes on.
You just need to look where we are at the moment in these very forums:
- peolple desperately have benn asking for XP support since the start (countless threads)
- people desperately trying to get "superbowl" or ColorCode3D galsses to work (here)
- peolple are trying (successfully) to make their own hardware which enables the glasses to sync on not supported DLP projectors (here and here - heck, forced to use drivers of the competition!)
- people are trying to get the functionality back the very same core driver stack offerde in the past (here and here
As much as I would love to share your excitement about the 3Dvision concept, at this time I simply cannot and I say this being into stereoscopy from the very beginning - as apparently MarkRY was, do you own the Metabyte EyeScream?... maybe we can meet in 5 years when every LCD is 120Hz but then the 3D vision glasses will not be alone out there....and maybe even better technologies around the corner.
And as with what Cen4 said, 3D movies are also growing in number. They are no longer the novelty they were in the 70's and 80's, they are becoming a serious medium who is just now starting to emerge from childrens' movies and entering the mainstream movie realm.
As far as your limitation concern, quadro, there shouldn't be a need to worry. Once the mainstream entertainment conglomerates decide on which type of tech should become mainstream (most likely a tech that will be standardized upon 120 Hz+ displays), they'll do whatever they need to do to make it happen and push it like crazy. Nvidia is the niche caterer, they suck at selling new tech to mainstream unless that tech is vital to a huge market (GPUs, games). Once enough serious 3D theatrical releases such as Avatar gain enough popularity and it becomes clear the public wants it at home, the US advertisement space will begin to be absolutely flooded with stereoscopic exposure. Remember when you couldn't go a single commercial break during primetime without seeing at least one ad for HDTV? Yeah get ready for that again lol. As that happens, 3D-ready will start to become standard in all TVs and it will domino from there with multiple choices in shutter devices, plenty of movies, etc. I'm thinking all of this will happen within the next 5-10 years, much like we were almost 10 years ago when HD was first starting to be introduced to the masses.
And as with what Cen4 said, 3D movies are also growing in number. They are no longer the novelty they were in the 70's and 80's, they are becoming a serious medium who is just now starting to emerge from childrens' movies and entering the mainstream movie realm.
As far as your limitation concern, quadro, there shouldn't be a need to worry. Once the mainstream entertainment conglomerates decide on which type of tech should become mainstream (most likely a tech that will be standardized upon 120 Hz+ displays), they'll do whatever they need to do to make it happen and push it like crazy. Nvidia is the niche caterer, they suck at selling new tech to mainstream unless that tech is vital to a huge market (GPUs, games). Once enough serious 3D theatrical releases such as Avatar gain enough popularity and it becomes clear the public wants it at home, the US advertisement space will begin to be absolutely flooded with stereoscopic exposure. Remember when you couldn't go a single commercial break during primetime without seeing at least one ad for HDTV? Yeah get ready for that again lol. As that happens, 3D-ready will start to become standard in all TVs and it will domino from there with multiple choices in shutter devices, plenty of movies, etc. I'm thinking all of this will happen within the next 5-10 years, much like we were almost 10 years ago when HD was first starting to be introduced to the masses.
Current parts:
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ASUS Sabertooth
i7 2600k
ASUS GTX 580
Corsair Vengeance 8GB DDR3 1866
W7
Pardon me wrong but the native HD formats are actually all based around PAL framerates (25P, 50i, 50psf, 50P). So they are not originating from Jpanese or US broadcast format which is in both cases - as you surely know - NTSC.
While I agree that HD saw a earlier (because forced) adoption , this was mainly because of the drawbacks of the NTSC formats (lower resolution, unstable color etc.) Also this hastely adoption has also lead to now being confronted with unreasonable "weird" HD framerates as 23.96, 29.97 etc which were neccessary not to break backward compatibility with older infrastructure, so we are starting the whole mess with 2 broadcast systems all over again, wich actually would have become needless with proper HD (because no color sync vector needed) ... But I'm straying too much OT here, it's just my grief working in the broadcast industry and having to deal with the consequences and difficulties of matching the unmatchable...
I also doubt that in the current economical situation allows for successful marketing by focussing primarily and especially on the US market.
As said, the BIG plus in the use of shutter glasses is a general compatibility with EVERY display technology (albeit with inferior results on some) since they do not depend on special monitors, screens, dual projection and the like - and it's a pity that the 3Dvision driver voids explicitly this advantage.
So even though I do not share the dissapointment with the initial post that the technology ahs not changed since the introduction of the Metabyte's I am dissapointed that the [i]approach[/i] in itself hasn't changed.
So, I agree that the glasses are too expensive now: back in the early days of Metabyte this was a [i]real[/i] niche product and I payed 200,- USD then - but today these glasses should run 50,- to 75,- not more - I mean look what sort of tech products you can get in this price range.
Since you always need a nvidia card to run the glasses they could start to make subsidized bundles with grafix cards where you get them at an effective price of 50,- plus compared to the board without the glasses. Also there should be extension or family kits with 3 or 4 glasses available at an attractive discount as well.
It's certainly doable if the product could be sold in quantities, which is possible to my believe:
Imagine if EVERY TV set, projector or monitor out there could be run to some extent with the 3D vision shutters placed at a tempting "grab and buy" price: the glasses would sell much better than now, I could see a lot of people giving it a try just out of curiosity, the system should soon see wide propagation. #
Everyone could have an affordable first 3D experience - with inefrior quality than a "real" 3D ready display, but maybe like it so much that they would more willingly rush to get a better display for 3D - the demand was immediately there. Now just imagine what [i]could[/i] happen if the manufacturers were facing the demand of a broad buyership making their purchase decision on this feature or explicitely asking for it. Also imagine the marketing effect of companies bringing displays with "improved", "even better" or "native" Stereo3D! I think the reason why we do not see 3D ready displays is because the manufacturers fear the investment in a niche market - why should they care and increase the price of a product for a feature nobody can use? Placing the glasses more agressively and removing the limitations would catalyse the market situation immediately and with more "real" 3D ready displays the market for glasses would grow again.
I am asking you: would you buy the glasses if you hadn't a display at the current price? (well, I did, but that's another story) Would you invest the premium into a 120Hz display to maybe get glasses at a later point? But how if those glasses were 50 bucks and you could test drive them on your existing PC monitor or TV set? And I bet this is the price we see them at in 2 years from now, if not lower.
Somehow nvidia has understood this - hence the introfduction of the 3Discover - but anaglyph was not able to propagate 3D for almost a century so why should it now.
Pardon me wrong but the native HD formats are actually all based around PAL framerates (25P, 50i, 50psf, 50P). So they are not originating from Jpanese or US broadcast format which is in both cases - as you surely know - NTSC.
While I agree that HD saw a earlier (because forced) adoption , this was mainly because of the drawbacks of the NTSC formats (lower resolution, unstable color etc.) Also this hastely adoption has also lead to now being confronted with unreasonable "weird" HD framerates as 23.96, 29.97 etc which were neccessary not to break backward compatibility with older infrastructure, so we are starting the whole mess with 2 broadcast systems all over again, wich actually would have become needless with proper HD (because no color sync vector needed) ... But I'm straying too much OT here, it's just my grief working in the broadcast industry and having to deal with the consequences and difficulties of matching the unmatchable...
I also doubt that in the current economical situation allows for successful marketing by focussing primarily and especially on the US market.
As said, the BIG plus in the use of shutter glasses is a general compatibility with EVERY display technology (albeit with inferior results on some) since they do not depend on special monitors, screens, dual projection and the like - and it's a pity that the 3Dvision driver voids explicitly this advantage.
So even though I do not share the dissapointment with the initial post that the technology ahs not changed since the introduction of the Metabyte's I am dissapointed that the approach in itself hasn't changed.
So, I agree that the glasses are too expensive now: back in the early days of Metabyte this was a real niche product and I payed 200,- USD then - but today these glasses should run 50,- to 75,- not more - I mean look what sort of tech products you can get in this price range.
Since you always need a nvidia card to run the glasses they could start to make subsidized bundles with grafix cards where you get them at an effective price of 50,- plus compared to the board without the glasses. Also there should be extension or family kits with 3 or 4 glasses available at an attractive discount as well.
It's certainly doable if the product could be sold in quantities, which is possible to my believe:
Imagine if EVERY TV set, projector or monitor out there could be run to some extent with the 3D vision shutters placed at a tempting "grab and buy" price: the glasses would sell much better than now, I could see a lot of people giving it a try just out of curiosity, the system should soon see wide propagation. #
Everyone could have an affordable first 3D experience - with inefrior quality than a "real" 3D ready display, but maybe like it so much that they would more willingly rush to get a better display for 3D - the demand was immediately there. Now just imagine what could happen if the manufacturers were facing the demand of a broad buyership making their purchase decision on this feature or explicitely asking for it. Also imagine the marketing effect of companies bringing displays with "improved", "even better" or "native" Stereo3D! I think the reason why we do not see 3D ready displays is because the manufacturers fear the investment in a niche market - why should they care and increase the price of a product for a feature nobody can use? Placing the glasses more agressively and removing the limitations would catalyse the market situation immediately and with more "real" 3D ready displays the market for glasses would grow again.
I am asking you: would you buy the glasses if you hadn't a display at the current price? (well, I did, but that's another story) Would you invest the premium into a 120Hz display to maybe get glasses at a later point? But how if those glasses were 50 bucks and you could test drive them on your existing PC monitor or TV set? And I bet this is the price we see them at in 2 years from now, if not lower.
Somehow nvidia has understood this - hence the introfduction of the 3Discover - but anaglyph was not able to propagate 3D for almost a century so why should it now.