3D Vision on 60hz LCD TV(tested) Finally answering the question 'Does it work?'
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Hi everyone, for over a year i have been looking through posts to see if it was possible to use 3D vision with 60hz but everyone said that the flickering at 30hz each eye will be terrible while others say it might work but no one has tried it, i finally bought the 3D kit as they were really cheap, i connected it and went through the wizard with ease. I selected 'Generic CRT monitor' and the screen and glasses started to flicker. I tried GTA San Andreas and i have good news and bad news, the good news is that the flickering is [b]ALMOST UNNOTICEABLE[/b] so all that talk about puking after 5 minutes, getting headaches and eyestrains are all WRONG, i used these for over 2 hours and my eyes are fine. The bad news is 'i think' the screen is flickering too quickly as i can see a double image so it kills the 3D image.

When i play GTA San Andreas or any 3D game and the camera is still the whole screen flickers and 'shakes' (see below)

[img]http://anthonystaines.com/3dproblem.jpg[/img]

but when the camera moves from right to left 'for example when running in a circle' the flickering STOPS and the 3D image is PERFECT! i think it's the timing or the TV ghosting but i doubt it's because of the low Hz as the 3D image wouldn't work at all.

So maybe if we can find out how to get the image to stop shaking we can finally get 3D vision on all monitors!
(BTW i think Nvidia has taken out that 'Warning' message because it didn't come up at all)/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />
Hi everyone, for over a year i have been looking through posts to see if it was possible to use 3D vision with 60hz but everyone said that the flickering at 30hz each eye will be terrible while others say it might work but no one has tried it, i finally bought the 3D kit as they were really cheap, i connected it and went through the wizard with ease. I selected 'Generic CRT monitor' and the screen and glasses started to flicker. I tried GTA San Andreas and i have good news and bad news, the good news is that the flickering is ALMOST UNNOTICEABLE so all that talk about puking after 5 minutes, getting headaches and eyestrains are all WRONG, i used these for over 2 hours and my eyes are fine. The bad news is 'i think' the screen is flickering too quickly as i can see a double image so it kills the 3D image.



When i play GTA San Andreas or any 3D game and the camera is still the whole screen flickers and 'shakes' (see below)



Image



but when the camera moves from right to left 'for example when running in a circle' the flickering STOPS and the 3D image is PERFECT! i think it's the timing or the TV ghosting but i doubt it's because of the low Hz as the 3D image wouldn't work at all.



So maybe if we can find out how to get the image to stop shaking we can finally get 3D vision on all monitors!

(BTW i think Nvidia has taken out that 'Warning' message because it didn't come up at all)/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':smile:' />

#1
Posted 11/17/2011 02:31 PM   
25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />

#2
Posted 11/17/2011 03:20 PM   
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='17 November 2011 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1321543211' post='1328237']
25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
[/quote]

Well, I had an CRT and a Asus Geforce3Ti500 with shutter-glasses long time ago.
The old Nvidia-driver was able to shutter at 60Hz but that was not funny. 3D-effect was nearly gone as the refresh-rate was too low to fool my brain.
"Playable" results started at 80Hz.

[quote]but when the camera moves from right to left 'for example when running in a circle' the flickering STOPS and the 3D image is PERFECT![/quote]
Maybe you get something like a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulfrich_effect"]Pulfrich-effect(Wikipedia)[/url], used in some older pseudo-3D-broadcasts on TV (glasses were in TV-magazines with one dark filter).
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='17 November 2011 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1321543211' post='1328237']

25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />





Well, I had an CRT and a Asus Geforce3Ti500 with shutter-glasses long time ago.

The old Nvidia-driver was able to shutter at 60Hz but that was not funny. 3D-effect was nearly gone as the refresh-rate was too low to fool my brain.

"Playable" results started at 80Hz.



but when the camera moves from right to left 'for example when running in a circle' the flickering STOPS and the 3D image is PERFECT!


Maybe you get something like a Pulfrich-effect(Wikipedia), used in some older pseudo-3D-broadcasts on TV (glasses were in TV-magazines with one dark filter).

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#3
Posted 11/17/2011 04:32 PM   
[quote name='Flint Eastwood' date='17 November 2011 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1321547563' post='1328279']
Well, I had an CRT and a Asus Geforce3Ti500 with shutter-glasses long time ago.
The old Nvidia-driver was able to shutter at 60Hz but that was not funny. 3D-effect was nearly gone as the refresh-rate was too low to fool my brain.
"Playable" results started at 80Hz.
[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing
[quote]Time-division multiplexing (TDM) is a type of digital (or rarely analog) multiplexing in which two or more bit streams or signals are transferred [b]apparently simultaneously[/b] as sub-channels in one communication channel, but are physically taking turns on the channel.[/quote]
[quote]Application examples[/quote]
[quote]The left-right channel splitting in use for stereoscopic liquid crystal shutter glasses[/quote]

-apparently simultaneous 60hz isn't !!!
[quote name='Flint Eastwood' date='17 November 2011 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1321547563' post='1328279']

Well, I had an CRT and a Asus Geforce3Ti500 with shutter-glasses long time ago.

The old Nvidia-driver was able to shutter at 60Hz but that was not funny. 3D-effect was nearly gone as the refresh-rate was too low to fool my brain.

"Playable" results started at 80Hz.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing

Time-division multiplexing (TDM) is a type of digital (or rarely analog) multiplexing in which two or more bit streams or signals are transferred apparently simultaneously as sub-channels in one communication channel, but are physically taking turns on the channel.


Application examples


The left-right channel splitting in use for stereoscopic liquid crystal shutter glasses




-apparently simultaneous 60hz isn't !!!

#4
Posted 11/17/2011 05:08 PM   
Wow, that must be painful as all hell. But seriously, good work trying to convince yourself that it's not. I personally find 60 hz per eye is the bare minimum.
Wow, that must be painful as all hell. But seriously, good work trying to convince yourself that it's not. I personally find 60 hz per eye is the bare minimum.

#5
Posted 11/17/2011 05:26 PM   
I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.
The bad thing was lag on the LG passive, you have to be sure to name the HDMI input to PC to greatly reduce it. Then you'd have to pay attention while gaming because the lag would creep back in randomly at times, then you have to pause, switch inputs back and forth to reset it, PITA. I returned it, lag free gaming ftw imho.
I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.

The bad thing was lag on the LG passive, you have to be sure to name the HDMI input to PC to greatly reduce it. Then you'd have to pay attention while gaming because the lag would creep back in randomly at times, then you have to pause, switch inputs back and forth to reset it, PITA. I returned it, lag free gaming ftw imho.

#6
Posted 11/17/2011 06:35 PM   
If I try 24hz or 60hz with low fps my eyes start feeling tired. Maybe occasional eye spasm.... Not recommended.
If I try 24hz or 60hz with low fps my eyes start feeling tired. Maybe occasional eye spasm.... Not recommended.

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#7
Posted 11/17/2011 07:15 PM   
[quote name='D-Man11' date='17 November 2011 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1321554948' post='1328349']
I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.[/quote]

We talk here about a simple 60Hz-LCD-Display.Shutter-sequence will look like this: L1-R1-L2-R2-L3-R3-... .

A 3D-TV will use a much higher frequency for shuttering output - for example 100Hz. The input signal from HDMI 1.4 is 1080p@25Hz(FramePacking) - that means the frames are doubled for the output at 100Hz ( L1-R1-L1-R1-L2-R2-L2-R2-L3-R3-L3-R3-... ).
And a passive display like your's doesn't shutter. The even lines on your LCD show the one view and the odd lines the other view. Even and odd lines are polarized differently, so they are permanently splitted by the glasses - no shuttering is needed.


[quote name='tritosine2k']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing[/quote]
I don't know, what you want to tell us with multiplexed-signal-transmission.
We talk here about a simple 60Hz display with a standard R+G+B+Sync-Signal - no multiplexing here (Sync-Signal just has V- and H-Sync coded inside).
It definately can only show 60 frames per second.
[quote name='D-Man11' date='17 November 2011 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1321554948' post='1328349']

I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.



We talk here about a simple 60Hz-LCD-Display.Shutter-sequence will look like this: L1-R1-L2-R2-L3-R3-... .



A 3D-TV will use a much higher frequency for shuttering output - for example 100Hz. The input signal from HDMI 1.4 is 1080p@25Hz(FramePacking) - that means the frames are doubled for the output at 100Hz ( L1-R1-L1-R1-L2-R2-L2-R2-L3-R3-L3-R3-... ).

And a passive display like your's doesn't shutter. The even lines on your LCD show the one view and the odd lines the other view. Even and odd lines are polarized differently, so they are permanently splitted by the glasses - no shuttering is needed.





tritosine2k said:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-division_multiplexing


I don't know, what you want to tell us with multiplexed-signal-transmission.

We talk here about a simple 60Hz display with a standard R+G+B+Sync-Signal - no multiplexing here (Sync-Signal just has V- and H-Sync coded inside).

It definately can only show 60 frames per second.

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#8
Posted 11/17/2011 07:56 PM   
[quote name='D-Man11' date='17 November 2011 - 09:35 AM' timestamp='1321554948' post='1328349']
I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.
[/quote]
Key words "passive" "of course"
I was just showing that 1080P@25 is viable for gaming on a "Passive" 3D display in most single player games and that "Of Course" there is no flickering. Why? Because passive displays use passive glasses, duh.

I understand the OP was referencing a 60Hz non 3D HDTV. The response time of the display is the leading cause of of the crosstalk and flickering. If connecting the TV via VGA, it may be possible to use an E-Dimensionsal emitter dongle with the ED-Activator along with the looping Activator to sync the signal.
[quote name='D-Man11' date='17 November 2011 - 09:35 AM' timestamp='1321554948' post='1328349']

I played on a LG passive using 3DTV Play at 1080P@25 per eye, of course there was no flickering and it worked quite well in most single player games.



Key words "passive" "of course"

I was just showing that 1080P@25 is viable for gaming on a "Passive" 3D display in most single player games and that "Of Course" there is no flickering. Why? Because passive displays use passive glasses, duh.



I understand the OP was referencing a 60Hz non 3D HDTV. The response time of the display is the leading cause of of the crosstalk and flickering. If connecting the TV via VGA, it may be possible to use an E-Dimensionsal emitter dongle with the ED-Activator along with the looping Activator to sync the signal.

#9
Posted 11/17/2011 09:45 PM   
Even 24hz is totally "playable", its only the input lag that eventually stopped me from using it in HL2. After awhile I stop noticing the flicker, even on bright areas of the screen. As for pain.....what pain?
Even 24hz is totally "playable", its only the input lag that eventually stopped me from using it in HL2. After awhile I stop noticing the flicker, even on bright areas of the screen. As for pain.....what pain?

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#10
Posted 11/17/2011 09:59 PM   
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='17 November 2011 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1321543211' post='1328237']
25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
[/quote]

It's 25fps because i put it on 'frame limiter'
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='17 November 2011 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1321543211' post='1328237']

25 fps 3d with 30hz per eye, sounds like we enterD playstation zone /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />





It's 25fps because i put it on 'frame limiter'

#11
Posted 11/18/2011 01:15 PM   
[quote name='Libertine' date='17 November 2011 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1321567154' post='1328485']
Even 24hz is totally "playable", its only the input lag that eventually stopped me from using it in HL2. After awhile I stop noticing the flicker, even on bright areas of the screen. As for pain.....what pain?
[/quote]

Is that 24hz each eye? (and yeah i don't see how glasses can cause you pain lol)
[quote name='Libertine' date='17 November 2011 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1321567154' post='1328485']

Even 24hz is totally "playable", its only the input lag that eventually stopped me from using it in HL2. After awhile I stop noticing the flicker, even on bright areas of the screen. As for pain.....what pain?





Is that 24hz each eye? (and yeah i don't see how glasses can cause you pain lol)

#12
Posted 11/18/2011 01:18 PM   
Thanks for everyones respone, the reason i think the flickering of the glasses are minimal is because i have my TV set to Dynamic which is very very bright, when i set it to standard which is darker you can notice the fickering alot more
Thanks for everyones respone, the reason i think the flickering of the glasses are minimal is because i have my TV set to Dynamic which is very very bright, when i set it to standard which is darker you can notice the fickering alot more

#13
Posted 11/18/2011 01:20 PM   
/bloated.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':X' />


[quote]I don't know, what you want to tell us with multiplexed-signal-transmission.[/quote]

/wacko.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> /blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
/bloated.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':X' />





I don't know, what you want to tell us with multiplexed-signal-transmission.




/wacko.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> /blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />

#14
Posted 11/18/2011 01:25 PM   
I have a few questions, i don't think my glasses are switching at the same time, are they still running at 120hz even though the screen is 60hz? Also i read somewhere that 'GlassesDelayMinus' might be able to fix this, how do i change the .reg to work? thanks
I have a few questions, i don't think my glasses are switching at the same time, are they still running at 120hz even though the screen is 60hz? Also i read somewhere that 'GlassesDelayMinus' might be able to fix this, how do i change the .reg to work? thanks

#15
Posted 11/20/2011 06:38 PM   
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