MTBS S3D Gaming Anomaly Guide standardise this things to help our gaming devs
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I know its a link to another site but I was frankly stunned it hadn't been done before!

Here is the linky

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11207&Itemid=94&showall=1"]http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...4&showall=1[/url]

I have a couple of quibles though...

1) I wasnt sure it mentioned the anomaly of surface textures and/or light coronas being shared between lenses ie half the texture is shown on the left lense and the rest on the right.

2) It mentions player tags (incorrectly displayed at screen depth instead of the depth of the player/unit/etc) not being a critical error but might cause some confusion during gameplay... /wallbash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wallbash:' /> DUDES have you not played busy RTSs like World in Conflict or C&C3? When all the unit tags are at screen depth it horrible and people like me cant play them.
I loved WIC and it looked so good in S3D, when you disabled the player tags. Shame this makes the game utterly unplayable because you loose the HUD.

Apart from that I though it was a handy article and should become standard.
I know its a link to another site but I was frankly stunned it hadn't been done before!



Here is the linky



http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...4&showall=1



I have a couple of quibles though...



1) I wasnt sure it mentioned the anomaly of surface textures and/or light coronas being shared between lenses ie half the texture is shown on the left lense and the rest on the right.



2) It mentions player tags (incorrectly displayed at screen depth instead of the depth of the player/unit/etc) not being a critical error but might cause some confusion during gameplay... /wallbash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wallbash:' /> DUDES have you not played busy RTSs like World in Conflict or C&C3? When all the unit tags are at screen depth it horrible and people like me cant play them.

I loved WIC and it looked so good in S3D, when you disabled the player tags. Shame this makes the game utterly unplayable because you loose the HUD.



Apart from that I though it was a handy article and should become standard.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#1
Posted 04/12/2010 07:42 AM   
I think Nvidia has nothing to do with this (or am I wrong??)

Contact developer of particular game and ask for patch.
But you probably know what answer is gonna be.
I think Nvidia has nothing to do with this (or am I wrong??)



Contact developer of particular game and ask for patch.

But you probably know what answer is gonna be.

#2
Posted 04/12/2010 10:42 AM   
Thanks for your feedback! It's still a work in progress, and if you read through the site, it's part of something much bigger (that hasn't been launched yet).

To answer your questions about light coronas, etc., check this URL out:

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11207&Itemid=94&limitstart=5"]http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...mp;limitstart=5[/url]

As for the name tag issue, I agree it is an anomaly, and it will be counted as such. However, just a handful of games support stereoscopic nametags, and a lot of babies would be thrown out with the bathwater if we ranked that too high on the anomaly list.

Please let us know if there are additional anomalies that should be properly listed and defined, and thanks again for your kind feedback.

Regards,
Chopper
Thanks for your feedback! It's still a work in progress, and if you read through the site, it's part of something much bigger (that hasn't been launched yet).



To answer your questions about light coronas, etc., check this URL out:



http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...mp;limitstart=5



As for the name tag issue, I agree it is an anomaly, and it will be counted as such. However, just a handful of games support stereoscopic nametags, and a lot of babies would be thrown out with the bathwater if we ranked that too high on the anomaly list.



Please let us know if there are additional anomalies that should be properly listed and defined, and thanks again for your kind feedback.



Regards,

Chopper

#3
Posted 04/12/2010 04:28 PM   
I like everything about mtb3d, but this "initiative" is ridiculous. Do you really think that Nvidia does not know about all these issues? It is like you want to mentor teacher. Ridiculous.
I like everything about mtb3d, but this "initiative" is ridiculous. Do you really think that Nvidia does not know about all these issues? It is like you want to mentor teacher. Ridiculous.

#4
Posted 04/12/2010 06:27 PM   
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1038646' date='Apr 12 2010, 02:27 PM']I like everything about mtb3d, but this "initiative" is ridiculous. Do you really think that Nvidia does not know about all these issues? It is like you want to mentor teacher. Ridiculous.[/quote]


This has little to do with NVIDIA as a company. This guide is part of something much bigger, and its purpose is to develop a common language. Its fit will be clearer soon enough.

Regards,
Chopper
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='1038646' date='Apr 12 2010, 02:27 PM']I like everything about mtb3d, but this "initiative" is ridiculous. Do you really think that Nvidia does not know about all these issues? It is like you want to mentor teacher. Ridiculous.





This has little to do with NVIDIA as a company. This guide is part of something much bigger, and its purpose is to develop a common language. Its fit will be clearer soon enough.



Regards,

Chopper

#5
Posted 04/12/2010 07:02 PM   
Ok, I am burning with curiosity (no I do not have GTX 480 yet).
Ok, I am burning with curiosity (no I do not have GTX 480 yet).

#6
Posted 04/12/2010 07:13 PM   
[quote name='Chopper' post='1038658' date='Apr 12 2010, 08:02 PM']This has little to do with NVIDIA as a company. This guide is part of something much bigger, and its purpose is to develop a common language. Its fit will be clearer soon enough.

Regards,
Chopper[/quote]

Agreed. Also, as soon as these anomalies becomes 'common' language, more game devs will become aware of the anomalies and will hopefully consider them. It is much easier to eliminate the anomalies during game development than fix them with patches.

For instance, sky boxes should never be in the wrong place (or so you would think). But, if devs have never needed to consider their physical depth, why would they worry about putting it at the back? Presumably the sky box depth has something to do with the texture map and the depth it looks its best at. If devs were aware of this common S3D anomaly then they would say create the texture to fit the skybox at the infinite depth.

@Chopper
Great idea but how can you/we/everyone get the devs to be aware of these common issues? That's the biggy!

@nVidia
You do provide this type of info to the correct department head right? Hopefully you visit the main software houses with your 3D kits to show them Fallout 3. So after they have picked their jaws up off the floor and one of them asks, 'why have you disabled the crosshair?' You can say, 'I am pleased you asked that...'

@TrekCZ
With respect, this 'initiative' is not ridiculous. I didnt realise it wasnt standard - thus this 'ere thread and Chopper's article. I used to be a geotechnical engineer and we always refered to the BS1377 documents which are the British Standards for ground testing. If people don't follow these standards, houses start falling down! There are loads of these standards for just about everything.
As I said I thought nVidia had a system like this already, when a game shows an nVidia tag it used their 'standards' - obviously I was wrong (see Bioshock 2).
[quote name='Chopper' post='1038658' date='Apr 12 2010, 08:02 PM']This has little to do with NVIDIA as a company. This guide is part of something much bigger, and its purpose is to develop a common language. Its fit will be clearer soon enough.



Regards,

Chopper



Agreed. Also, as soon as these anomalies becomes 'common' language, more game devs will become aware of the anomalies and will hopefully consider them. It is much easier to eliminate the anomalies during game development than fix them with patches.



For instance, sky boxes should never be in the wrong place (or so you would think). But, if devs have never needed to consider their physical depth, why would they worry about putting it at the back? Presumably the sky box depth has something to do with the texture map and the depth it looks its best at. If devs were aware of this common S3D anomaly then they would say create the texture to fit the skybox at the infinite depth.



@Chopper

Great idea but how can you/we/everyone get the devs to be aware of these common issues? That's the biggy!



@nVidia

You do provide this type of info to the correct department head right? Hopefully you visit the main software houses with your 3D kits to show them Fallout 3. So after they have picked their jaws up off the floor and one of them asks, 'why have you disabled the crosshair?' You can say, 'I am pleased you asked that...'



@TrekCZ

With respect, this 'initiative' is not ridiculous. I didnt realise it wasnt standard - thus this 'ere thread and Chopper's article. I used to be a geotechnical engineer and we always refered to the BS1377 documents which are the British Standards for ground testing. If people don't follow these standards, houses start falling down! There are loads of these standards for just about everything.

As I said I thought nVidia had a system like this already, when a game shows an nVidia tag it used their 'standards' - obviously I was wrong (see Bioshock 2).

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
-------------------
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#7
Posted 04/13/2010 07:26 AM   
mtbs3d is not any standardisation body, it is stereo enthusiast webpage
nvidia does not care about it and nobody is gonna bother any boss with it, because he/she would be instantly fired

if there is standardisation effort nvidia will do it with samsung and other big manufacturers not with annoying insect

I am just curious about that "language" (programming language? uml like? abstract language?)

PS:
I could imagine that mtbs3d is making some startup? is it some sort of startup?
mtbs3d is not any standardisation body, it is stereo enthusiast webpage

nvidia does not care about it and nobody is gonna bother any boss with it, because he/she would be instantly fired



if there is standardisation effort nvidia will do it with samsung and other big manufacturers not with annoying insect



I am just curious about that "language" (programming language? uml like? abstract language?)



PS:

I could imagine that mtbs3d is making some startup? is it some sort of startup?

#8
Posted 04/13/2010 09:53 AM   
Hello again,

I think you might be getting confused. It is software, not hardware. The relevent people who need to be aware of these anamolies are folk like Rockstar, Creative Assembly, Bioware, Bethesda etc. It is not just nVidia users this effects, but also iZ3D and soon AMD when they release their S3D solution. Plus, no-one mentioned a new programming language.

What the article is trying to do is to provide a formal terminology to the glitches we all know and loathe. Before the new drivers came out many people, myself included were complaining about ghosting in the Just Cause 2 Demo, this wasnt ghosting that you I and I know, it was texture doubling and the new drivers resolved it. But people were calling it ghosting because it looked like ghosting was the right noun.

Obviously, some things are driver based but other things arent e.g. unit tags. They are 3D in games like ME2:TW but not in WIC. If the devs were aware of the issue of 2D player tags surely they would place the unit tag in the 3D world with the unit it represented.

Once these issues become well known it should become obvious/standard to put the skybox at the back; if you dont want to code a dynamic 3D crosshair have it set a little in front of the player so it's natural to use in S3D e.g. Halo or have the option to completely turn it off altogether etc etc

This really should be the first thing game devs are asked to do...
Hello again,



I think you might be getting confused. It is software, not hardware. The relevent people who need to be aware of these anamolies are folk like Rockstar, Creative Assembly, Bioware, Bethesda etc. It is not just nVidia users this effects, but also iZ3D and soon AMD when they release their S3D solution. Plus, no-one mentioned a new programming language.



What the article is trying to do is to provide a formal terminology to the glitches we all know and loathe. Before the new drivers came out many people, myself included were complaining about ghosting in the Just Cause 2 Demo, this wasnt ghosting that you I and I know, it was texture doubling and the new drivers resolved it. But people were calling it ghosting because it looked like ghosting was the right noun.



Obviously, some things are driver based but other things arent e.g. unit tags. They are 3D in games like ME2:TW but not in WIC. If the devs were aware of the issue of 2D player tags surely they would place the unit tag in the 3D world with the unit it represented.



Once these issues become well known it should become obvious/standard to put the skybox at the back; if you dont want to code a dynamic 3D crosshair have it set a little in front of the player so it's natural to use in S3D e.g. Halo or have the option to completely turn it off altogether etc etc



This really should be the first thing game devs are asked to do...

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#9
Posted 04/13/2010 10:49 AM   
I mentioned Samsung just as example, whoever.

I think Nvidia does not need it, they already must have it. See. e.g. Resident Evil 5, Nvidia cooperated and result is perfect. Or Metro 2033. Why mtbs3d guys think that they can advice or be more clever then sifu (nvidias or others developers)

I do not want to be moronic, but I think people should report bugs as usual and hope that Nvidia resolves them. Maybe mtbs3d could prepare mods for older games and so on, just do something really helpfull.

It would be cool if mtbs3d could prepare mods for older games.
I mentioned Samsung just as example, whoever.



I think Nvidia does not need it, they already must have it. See. e.g. Resident Evil 5, Nvidia cooperated and result is perfect. Or Metro 2033. Why mtbs3d guys think that they can advice or be more clever then sifu (nvidias or others developers)



I do not want to be moronic, but I think people should report bugs as usual and hope that Nvidia resolves them. Maybe mtbs3d could prepare mods for older games and so on, just do something really helpfull.



It would be cool if mtbs3d could prepare mods for older games.

#10
Posted 04/13/2010 11:05 AM   
I still think you might be slightly confused my friend. :)

I am not sure about RE5 and my system wont be able to play Metro2033 well enough for me to buy it and judge it. However, I have heard lots of good things about Metro 2033 in this forum. I also saw a press video of one of the devs from 4A Games saying in a general statement that they had considered S3D from the ground up.

I bet that after Metro 2033, any dev from 4A Games will likely consider S3D when developing any future games because they know what to look out for so it should naturally become part of their design philosophy. I also bet they will do this with or without nVidia looking over their shoulder; dont forget, 3D Vision isnt the only S3D solution out there.

Although some things can be fixed at driver level others will never be fixable by drivers e.g. 2D unit tags.

I think Bioshock 2 is an excellent example of the need for parties to have the same language. A dev, who is not an S3D enthusiast, looking at Bioshock 2 would likely say [i]woohoo! it works wonderfully in S3D![/i] Because you turn it on and hey-presto, it is in S3D! [i]Yay for us! Slap on that 3D Ready badge nVidia![/i]

Wrong!

The game shipped with a 2D crosshair which you couldn't even turn off! /wallbash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wallbash:' />
How stupid was that? From what I understand, BS2's S3D quality at launch was very similar ME2's and ME2 is rated Fair.

Now, if Irrational Games were aware of common issues as per the subject linky there is no way Bioshock 2 would have been released with a 2D crosshair etc

So

Its not really anything nVidia can do, apart from make people more aware of common S3D glitches. Also it is not just nVidia who make S3D solutions which is why it is not really up to them to tell the rest of the world how to consider S3D... Do you see?
I still think you might be slightly confused my friend. :)



I am not sure about RE5 and my system wont be able to play Metro2033 well enough for me to buy it and judge it. However, I have heard lots of good things about Metro 2033 in this forum. I also saw a press video of one of the devs from 4A Games saying in a general statement that they had considered S3D from the ground up.



I bet that after Metro 2033, any dev from 4A Games will likely consider S3D when developing any future games because they know what to look out for so it should naturally become part of their design philosophy. I also bet they will do this with or without nVidia looking over their shoulder; dont forget, 3D Vision isnt the only S3D solution out there.



Although some things can be fixed at driver level others will never be fixable by drivers e.g. 2D unit tags.



I think Bioshock 2 is an excellent example of the need for parties to have the same language. A dev, who is not an S3D enthusiast, looking at Bioshock 2 would likely say woohoo! it works wonderfully in S3D! Because you turn it on and hey-presto, it is in S3D! Yay for us! Slap on that 3D Ready badge nVidia!



Wrong!



The game shipped with a 2D crosshair which you couldn't even turn off! /wallbash.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wallbash:' />

How stupid was that? From what I understand, BS2's S3D quality at launch was very similar ME2's and ME2 is rated Fair.



Now, if Irrational Games were aware of common issues as per the subject linky there is no way Bioshock 2 would have been released with a 2D crosshair etc



So



Its not really anything nVidia can do, apart from make people more aware of common S3D glitches. Also it is not just nVidia who make S3D solutions which is why it is not really up to them to tell the rest of the world how to consider S3D... Do you see?

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
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#11
Posted 04/13/2010 11:58 AM   
Ok! Time to satisfy your curiousity!

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1913&Itemid=82"]http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...3&Itemid=82[/url]

The reasoning behind the anomaly guide should make more sense now. There are some presentation bugs that need to be worked out, but we expect them to be solved by this time tomorrow.

A lot of time and effort went into it by several members, and we hope you all like it. It's an early beta, so go easy on us! /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />

Regards,
Chopper
Ok! Time to satisfy your curiousity!



http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...3&Itemid=82



The reasoning behind the anomaly guide should make more sense now. There are some presentation bugs that need to be worked out, but we expect them to be solved by this time tomorrow.



A lot of time and effort went into it by several members, and we hope you all like it. It's an early beta, so go easy on us! /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />



Regards,

Chopper

#12
Posted 04/16/2010 03:52 AM   
Ok! Time to satisfy your curiousity!

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1913&Itemid=82"]http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...3&Itemid=82[/url]

The reasoning behind the anomaly guide should make more sense now. There are some presentation bugs that need to be worked out, but we expect them to be solved by this time tomorrow.

A lot of time and effort went into it by several members, and we hope you all like it. It's an early beta, so go easy on us! /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />

Regards,
Chopper
Ok! Time to satisfy your curiousity!



http://www.mtbs3d.com/index.php?option=com...3&Itemid=82



The reasoning behind the anomaly guide should make more sense now. There are some presentation bugs that need to be worked out, but we expect them to be solved by this time tomorrow.



A lot of time and effort went into it by several members, and we hope you all like it. It's an early beta, so go easy on us! /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' />



Regards,

Chopper

#13
Posted 04/16/2010 03:52 AM   
right, it's still a work in progress but the "aim" is so gamers know how to describe the anomalies so they make the right selections in M3GA

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_dev=nVidia&sdr=all&grp_by="]http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_d...all&grp_by=[/url]

this is still a work in progress, many things are to be added
right, it's still a work in progress but the "aim" is so gamers know how to describe the anomalies so they make the right selections in M3GA



http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_d...all&grp_by=



this is still a work in progress, many things are to be added

#14
Posted 04/16/2010 02:57 PM   
right, it's still a work in progress but the "aim" is so gamers know how to describe the anomalies so they make the right selections in M3GA

[url="http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_dev=nVidia&sdr=all&grp_by="]http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_d...all&grp_by=[/url]

this is still a work in progress, many things are to be added
right, it's still a work in progress but the "aim" is so gamers know how to describe the anomalies so they make the right selections in M3GA



http://www.mtbs3d.com/m3ga/index.php?sdr_d...all&grp_by=



this is still a work in progress, many things are to be added

#15
Posted 04/16/2010 02:57 PM   
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