3D Vision driver NEEDS view offset/shift option!
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I've posted about this before and got no response. I started searching and found that it was discussed among users a year or two ago with no real result, and the one nvidia fellow who did reply apparently didn't understand the issue. Decided to elaborate on what I previously posted only briefly about. I see this as an extremely important issue, and failure to address it is a serious hindrance to 3D FPS gaming. Let's see if it can get someone's attention at all.



Anyone try aiming down ironsights with 3d vision? It's effectively impossible. The only way you can do it is to mess with convergence, ruining the 3d experience and producing a darn poor result.
Allow me to provide an explanation for why this is.
For the purpose of this demonstration, I shall refer to any view provided by the game as a 'viewport'.




When playing in 2D, there is only one viewport, which is sent to both eyes (naturally). Games know that we'll only be viewing them through that singular viewport, so they tailor the experience to viewing in that manner. We can call this viewport the 'center' viewport, as it is aligned directly in the center of the player's view. We can consider its origin to be the point directly between your eyes. Both eyes receive this view, so effectively playing a game in 2D is like being a Cyclops:

[img]http://pirocast.net/screenshots/111230/3doffset_01_2d.png[/img]
Image: In 2D mode, your view is always aligned properly by nature.




A simplified description of the 3D driver's process is that it uses two viewports instead of one, each of these viewports offset an equal distance to the left/right of the center viewport*. Your left eye only sees with the viewport that's offset to the left, and your right eye only sees with the viewport that's offset to the right.
* That, or it's toggling the single viewport between two positions rapidly -- one to the left and one to the right.

This is fine for games where alignment with your eyes isn't needed, but keep in mind that 2D is made with the assumption that your viewport is aligned with the *center* of the scene, and 2D sometimes intentionally places objects in the center when it wants your view to be aligned with them. When the 3D driver offsets left and right, there is no longer any viewport aligned with the center! As such, anything intentionally aligned to the center will no longer be aligned with your view! The result is that you see the object from each side when you're supposed to see straight down it. This is a big problem with weapon ironsights and scopes:

[img]http://pirocast.net/screenshots/111230/3doffset_02_3d_no_offset.png[/img]
Image: In 3D mode with left and right offset views, center-aligned objects such as ironsights are misaligned and thus fail to function properly.




There are three "solutions" to this problem, but only one of them is acceptable.
1) Offset the center-aligned object[s] so that they align with the right eye instead.
-- Unacceptable because it requires game-specific fixes, and that sucks.
2) Set the convergence so that you get something more or less close to centered sights, typically knocking depth waaaay down in the process.
-- Unacceptable because it turns the 3d experience into a word I don't believe I'm allowed to say on these forums.
3) Shift the offset to one side. i.e. instead of shifting Viewport A to the left 1 inch, and Viewport B to the right 1 inch, simply shift Viewport A to the left 2 inches, while leaving Viewport B centered as in 2D mode.
-- Perfect solution! Works for literally ALL games, lets you use whatever depth/convergence settings you want, solves the problem of close misaligned objects and adds realism to boot. After all, we use our dominant eye to look down ironsights, while using our other eye as peripheral vision or closing it altogether.
[img]http://pirocast.net/screenshots/111230/ironsights.jpg[/img]
Image: ironsights are aligned with an eye, not the center of our view. 2D viewports approximate this, 3D viewports must compensate for it.



So, it's only natural that your sights should be aligned with your dominant eye, right? That's what happens here. shifting the viewport properly aligns ironsights and other such objects with your dominant eye, letting you use them just as you would in real life. Pull up your ironsights and close your left eye to look down the sights with your right, or leave your left eye open as peripheral vision. Your right eye will have the appropriately-aligned view, while the right-eye-aligned objects will typically be ignored by your left eye, and proper convergence/depth settings should put them pretty far out of the way.

[img]http://pirocast.net/screenshots/111230/3doffset_03_3d_left_shift.png[/img]
Image: We have a winner! Offset to properly align ironsights/etc with your dominant eye. And such a simple solution, too!



The crux of the matter: Is this available yet for 3D Vision? Frankly, I was spoiled by the Left/Right Shift option in iZ3D, and I'm finding that the lack of Left Shift makes me simply not want to use 3D Vision in games that use ironsights (increasingly common in FPSes!) at all. Probably going to set up a second system just so I can keep using my iZ3D in those games until NVIDIA adds Left Shift to 3D Vision. Anyone have any information about whether I'm missing the option for this, or if NVIDIA has plans to implement it, or if there's a third-party hack to enable it somewhere? I really really can't stand playing without this.
I've posted about this before and got no response. I started searching and found that it was discussed among users a year or two ago with no real result, and the one nvidia fellow who did reply apparently didn't understand the issue. Decided to elaborate on what I previously posted only briefly about. I see this as an extremely important issue, and failure to address it is a serious hindrance to 3D FPS gaming. Let's see if it can get someone's attention at all.







Anyone try aiming down ironsights with 3d vision? It's effectively impossible. The only way you can do it is to mess with convergence, ruining the 3d experience and producing a darn poor result.

Allow me to provide an explanation for why this is.

For the purpose of this demonstration, I shall refer to any view provided by the game as a 'viewport'.









When playing in 2D, there is only one viewport, which is sent to both eyes (naturally). Games know that we'll only be viewing them through that singular viewport, so they tailor the experience to viewing in that manner. We can call this viewport the 'center' viewport, as it is aligned directly in the center of the player's view. We can consider its origin to be the point directly between your eyes. Both eyes receive this view, so effectively playing a game in 2D is like being a Cyclops:



Image

Image: In 2D mode, your view is always aligned properly by nature.









A simplified description of the 3D driver's process is that it uses two viewports instead of one, each of these viewports offset an equal distance to the left/right of the center viewport*. Your left eye only sees with the viewport that's offset to the left, and your right eye only sees with the viewport that's offset to the right.

* That, or it's toggling the single viewport between two positions rapidly -- one to the left and one to the right.



This is fine for games where alignment with your eyes isn't needed, but keep in mind that 2D is made with the assumption that your viewport is aligned with the *center* of the scene, and 2D sometimes intentionally places objects in the center when it wants your view to be aligned with them. When the 3D driver offsets left and right, there is no longer any viewport aligned with the center! As such, anything intentionally aligned to the center will no longer be aligned with your view! The result is that you see the object from each side when you're supposed to see straight down it. This is a big problem with weapon ironsights and scopes:



Image

Image: In 3D mode with left and right offset views, center-aligned objects such as ironsights are misaligned and thus fail to function properly.









There are three "solutions" to this problem, but only one of them is acceptable.

1) Offset the center-aligned object[s] so that they align with the right eye instead.

-- Unacceptable because it requires game-specific fixes, and that sucks.

2) Set the convergence so that you get something more or less close to centered sights, typically knocking depth waaaay down in the process.

-- Unacceptable because it turns the 3d experience into a word I don't believe I'm allowed to say on these forums.

3) Shift the offset to one side. i.e. instead of shifting Viewport A to the left 1 inch, and Viewport B to the right 1 inch, simply shift Viewport A to the left 2 inches, while leaving Viewport B centered as in 2D mode.

-- Perfect solution! Works for literally ALL games, lets you use whatever depth/convergence settings you want, solves the problem of close misaligned objects and adds realism to boot. After all, we use our dominant eye to look down ironsights, while using our other eye as peripheral vision or closing it altogether.

Image

Image: ironsights are aligned with an eye, not the center of our view. 2D viewports approximate this, 3D viewports must compensate for it.







So, it's only natural that your sights should be aligned with your dominant eye, right? That's what happens here. shifting the viewport properly aligns ironsights and other such objects with your dominant eye, letting you use them just as you would in real life. Pull up your ironsights and close your left eye to look down the sights with your right, or leave your left eye open as peripheral vision. Your right eye will have the appropriately-aligned view, while the right-eye-aligned objects will typically be ignored by your left eye, and proper convergence/depth settings should put them pretty far out of the way.



Image

Image: We have a winner! Offset to properly align ironsights/etc with your dominant eye. And such a simple solution, too!







The crux of the matter: Is this available yet for 3D Vision? Frankly, I was spoiled by the Left/Right Shift option in iZ3D, and I'm finding that the lack of Left Shift makes me simply not want to use 3D Vision in games that use ironsights (increasingly common in FPSes!) at all. Probably going to set up a second system just so I can keep using my iZ3D in those games until NVIDIA adds Left Shift to 3D Vision. Anyone have any information about whether I'm missing the option for this, or if NVIDIA has plans to implement it, or if there's a third-party hack to enable it somewhere? I really really can't stand playing without this.

#1
Posted 12/30/2011 10:15 AM   
[quote]Anyone try aiming down ironsights with 3d vision? It's effectively impossible.[/quote]
This would also be a massive help in games where you are supposed to select a distant object with a mouse pointer. Tell the drivers to line up on an eye, close the other eye when you need to select, and it will work.

What I'm not sure of is how disorienting it will be. It's going to seem as if your head is actually an inch or so to the side. Given how other people are praising the feature in other drivers, though, I have to think it can't be too bad.

Maybe if this was a hold-down-key thing? When you hold down the {whatever key or mouse button} then the perspective shifts to the dominant eye but when you let up on the key it would pop back to the normal perspective. Or maybe holding down the key would pop the depth down to 0? After all, you're supposed to be closing one eye anyway so why not save you the bother? (Switching it completely out of 3D would be nice, too, but that involves switching the monitor mode and whatnot so it takes too long.)
Anyone try aiming down ironsights with 3d vision? It's effectively impossible.


This would also be a massive help in games where you are supposed to select a distant object with a mouse pointer. Tell the drivers to line up on an eye, close the other eye when you need to select, and it will work.



What I'm not sure of is how disorienting it will be. It's going to seem as if your head is actually an inch or so to the side. Given how other people are praising the feature in other drivers, though, I have to think it can't be too bad.



Maybe if this was a hold-down-key thing? When you hold down the {whatever key or mouse button} then the perspective shifts to the dominant eye but when you let up on the key it would pop back to the normal perspective. Or maybe holding down the key would pop the depth down to 0? After all, you're supposed to be closing one eye anyway so why not save you the bother? (Switching it completely out of 3D would be nice, too, but that involves switching the monitor mode and whatnot so it takes too long.)

#2
Posted 12/30/2011 11:48 PM   
nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.

Good luck with your quest.
nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.



Good luck with your quest.

#3
Posted 12/31/2011 12:04 AM   
I'd love this feature. It would be very helpful for FPS games.
I'd love this feature. It would be very helpful for FPS games.
#4
Posted 12/31/2011 01:17 AM   
[quote name='Zloth' date='30 December 2011 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1325288880' post='1349373']
This would also be a massive help in games where you are supposed to select a distant object with a mouse pointer. Tell the drivers to line up on an eye, close the other eye when you need to select, and it will work.

What I'm not sure of is how disorienting it will be. It's going to seem as if your head is actually an inch or so to the side. Given how other people are praising the feature in other drivers, though, I have to think it can't be too bad.

Maybe if this was a hold-down-key thing? When you hold down the {whatever key or mouse button} then the perspective shifts to the dominant eye but when you let up on the key it would pop back to the normal perspective. Or maybe holding down the key would pop the depth down to 0? After all, you're supposed to be closing one eye anyway so why not save you the bother? (Switching it completely out of 3D would be nice, too, but that involves switching the monitor mode and whatnot so it takes too long.)
[/quote]

It's actually not disorienting at all. I've been using this feature with iZ3D's screen for literally years, and you don't even really notice a difference, except for the fact that you can actually get your cursors and sights to line up properly when you want to, and it doesn't look like you're holding your gun right between your eyes. When your weapon is at your hip, it doesn't really appear any different. After you try it even just once, you can't play without it, it's that vital. iZ3D let you toggle the feature globally or per-profile, so you could either turn it off globally and enable it for games that require it, or just leave it on globally and never worry about it at all.

It's far more disorienting to have your vision obscured by nonfunctional weapon sights ^^

As for mouse cursors, you're exactly right! It can be a little confusing since, unless you close your eyes, you have to be careful which of the two cursors you see is the one you actually try to use. It's still better than having to aim for the center point between them, or even worse, changing your convergence/depth.
[quote name='Zloth' date='30 December 2011 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1325288880' post='1349373']

This would also be a massive help in games where you are supposed to select a distant object with a mouse pointer. Tell the drivers to line up on an eye, close the other eye when you need to select, and it will work.



What I'm not sure of is how disorienting it will be. It's going to seem as if your head is actually an inch or so to the side. Given how other people are praising the feature in other drivers, though, I have to think it can't be too bad.



Maybe if this was a hold-down-key thing? When you hold down the {whatever key or mouse button} then the perspective shifts to the dominant eye but when you let up on the key it would pop back to the normal perspective. Or maybe holding down the key would pop the depth down to 0? After all, you're supposed to be closing one eye anyway so why not save you the bother? (Switching it completely out of 3D would be nice, too, but that involves switching the monitor mode and whatnot so it takes too long.)





It's actually not disorienting at all. I've been using this feature with iZ3D's screen for literally years, and you don't even really notice a difference, except for the fact that you can actually get your cursors and sights to line up properly when you want to, and it doesn't look like you're holding your gun right between your eyes. When your weapon is at your hip, it doesn't really appear any different. After you try it even just once, you can't play without it, it's that vital. iZ3D let you toggle the feature globally or per-profile, so you could either turn it off globally and enable it for games that require it, or just leave it on globally and never worry about it at all.



It's far more disorienting to have your vision obscured by nonfunctional weapon sights ^^



As for mouse cursors, you're exactly right! It can be a little confusing since, unless you close your eyes, you have to be careful which of the two cursors you see is the one you actually try to use. It's still better than having to aim for the center point between them, or even worse, changing your convergence/depth.

#5
Posted 12/31/2011 04:23 AM   
[quote name='Bobeggy' date='30 December 2011 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1325289891' post='1349379']
nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.

Good luck with your quest.
[/quote]


Indeed; sadly I'm not expecting anything to come of this. Features like these are so important that they have to be repeated as much as possible, though. It has a seriously negative effect on the gameplay experience, and 3D is supposed to [i]enhance[/i] gameplay, not make it worse.
[quote name='Bobeggy' date='30 December 2011 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1325289891' post='1349379']

nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.



Good luck with your quest.







Indeed; sadly I'm not expecting anything to come of this. Features like these are so important that they have to be repeated as much as possible, though. It has a seriously negative effect on the gameplay experience, and 3D is supposed to enhance gameplay, not make it worse.

#6
Posted 12/31/2011 04:25 AM   
I'm currently waiting on a CPU cooler for my new LGA2011 system to arrive in the mail, should be here on Tuesday or so. Once it arrives, I'm going to hook up my iZ3D to that system, and get some screenshots of Left Shift in action. This should help demonstrate the real-world effects of the option for anyone who is still unsure.
I'm currently waiting on a CPU cooler for my new LGA2011 system to arrive in the mail, should be here on Tuesday or so. Once it arrives, I'm going to hook up my iZ3D to that system, and get some screenshots of Left Shift in action. This should help demonstrate the real-world effects of the option for anyone who is still unsure.

#7
Posted 12/31/2011 04:34 AM   
[quote name='Bobeggy' date='30 December 2011 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1325289891' post='1349379']
nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.

Good luck with your quest.
[/quote]

Yeah, NVIDIA really needs to support the advancement of 3D Vision more. If it weren't for the fact that Tridef works with NVIDIA cards, and that the list of of games that natively support 3D Vision is growing slightly, I'd be an AMD user.
[quote name='Bobeggy' date='30 December 2011 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1325289891' post='1349379']

nvidia's roadmap for adding features to 3D Vision is pushed out literally for years. It has been an entire year and they have yet to return support for checkerboard. Latest I heard it is STILL about 6 months out. It has been over a year and they have yet to add a check box for reversing the eyes. With no ETA given on this one, expect another YEAR or so.



Good luck with your quest.





Yeah, NVIDIA really needs to support the advancement of 3D Vision more. If it weren't for the fact that Tridef works with NVIDIA cards, and that the list of of games that natively support 3D Vision is growing slightly, I'd be an AMD user.

#8
Posted 12/31/2011 05:07 AM   
[quote name='Osobari' date='30 December 2011 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1325308073' post='1349492']
Yeah, NVIDIA really needs to support the advancement of 3D Vision more. If it weren't for the fact that Tridef works with NVIDIA cards, and that the list of of games that natively support 3D Vision is growing slightly, I'd be an AMD user.
[/quote]


Indeed. Coming from a now-defunct product, I expected more from NVIDIA. I still can't believe it doesn't support what felt like such a basic feature.
[quote name='Osobari' date='30 December 2011 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1325308073' post='1349492']

Yeah, NVIDIA really needs to support the advancement of 3D Vision more. If it weren't for the fact that Tridef works with NVIDIA cards, and that the list of of games that natively support 3D Vision is growing slightly, I'd be an AMD user.







Indeed. Coming from a now-defunct product, I expected more from NVIDIA. I still can't believe it doesn't support what felt like such a basic feature.

#9
Posted 12/31/2011 08:15 AM   
Well I'll keep this brief since this topic has come up before. I doubt Nvidia will do this, not because they can't, but because they don't want this to be representative of the brand of 3D they are offering.

While I personally doubt I would ever use this option if it were available, I'm not opposed if it is relatively easy for Nvidia to implement and enough people want it as an option. There's quite a few options I would like to see implemented over this, but I guess we all have our priorities.
Well I'll keep this brief since this topic has come up before. I doubt Nvidia will do this, not because they can't, but because they don't want this to be representative of the brand of 3D they are offering.



While I personally doubt I would ever use this option if it were available, I'm not opposed if it is relatively easy for Nvidia to implement and enough people want it as an option. There's quite a few options I would like to see implemented over this, but I guess we all have our priorities.

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings

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Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W

#10
Posted 12/31/2011 05:07 PM   
+1 billion for this feature NVIDIA!!!!11
+1 billion for this feature NVIDIA!!!!11

AsRock X58 Extreme6 mobo
Intel Core-i7 950 @ 4ghz
12gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600
ASUS DirectCU II GTX 780 3gb
Corsair TX 950w PSU
NZXT Phantom Red/Black Case
3d Vision 1 w/ Samsung 2233rz Monitor
3d Vision 2 w/ ASUS VG278HE Monitor

#11
Posted 12/31/2011 11:11 PM   
+1

Are we never going to get any new features or what?
+1



Are we never going to get any new features or what?

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#12
Posted 12/31/2011 11:34 PM   
[quote name='chiz' date='01 January 2012 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1325351248' post='1349694']I doubt Nvidia will do this, not because they can't, but because they don't want this to be representative of the brand of 3D they are offering.[/quote]
Why do your posts always leave me hanging /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' /> What do you mean by that?

nVidia would be much more successful if they were more involved in listening & supporting the user base IMO /thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' />
I'd also like to see this added!
[quote name='chiz' date='01 January 2012 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1325351248' post='1349694']I doubt Nvidia will do this, not because they can't, but because they don't want this to be representative of the brand of 3D they are offering.

Why do your posts always leave me hanging /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' /> What do you mean by that?



nVidia would be much more successful if they were more involved in listening & supporting the user base IMO /thumbsdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':thumbsdown:' />

I'd also like to see this added!

#13
Posted 01/01/2012 07:02 AM   
NVIDIA is still far and away the best solution out there so they probably aren't real eager to pour money over this way just so they can "win by more." I wish they would throw us a bone here, though. Even if it's just some barely-supported thing where we have to change a registry setting to turn the feature on it would be a huge help.
NVIDIA is still far and away the best solution out there so they probably aren't real eager to pour money over this way just so they can "win by more." I wish they would throw us a bone here, though. Even if it's just some barely-supported thing where we have to change a registry setting to turn the feature on it would be a huge help.

#14
Posted 01/01/2012 04:06 PM   
It's maybe about "keeping it simple".
They even hide the convergence setting by default...
In my opinion the settings arent the things that are confusing regarding nvidiastereo though.
It's maybe about "keeping it simple".

They even hide the convergence setting by default...

In my opinion the settings arent the things that are confusing regarding nvidiastereo though.

Image

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3D:100" passive projector polarized setup + 22" IZ3D

Stereodrivers: Iz3d & Tridef ignition and nvidia old school.

#15
Posted 01/01/2012 04:21 PM   
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