[quote="RAGEdemon"]This is great news!
Any word on 120Hz support for .67" DMDs @ 120Hz?[/quote]
Yah, 1440P goodness.
Fingers crossed.
While the manufacturers seem receptive with these new PJs, be sure to ask about Checkerboard at 4K on the .67
Hopefully, at the very least they should do 3D Blu-ray playback at 4K
@Paul, what size screen and type of material are you using? I currently have a 110" diagonal plain white screen, it's probably 1.1 gain.
I'm still not sure which projector to get, but you're a braver man than me as I've been put off by all the firmware issues. The BenQ's had a known 3d eye sync issue on early firmware and at least one of the optomas apparently didn't have all the correct support for SBS mode.
In all cases, none of these projectors can be upgraded by users, they always have to be sent back.
I'm leaning towards the BenQ TK800 at the moment, for the extra lumens basically.
@Rage, it does seem to have been confirmed that the Viviteks (0.67 DMD) do support 120Hz.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2968084-vivitek-4k-pj-works-1080p-120hz.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2702097-vivitek-hk2288-real-4k-dlp-home-theater-projector-33.html
There was also another thread buried somewhere where another user confirmed he passed the UFO test with a 2288.
They're available in the states for only ~ $1500.
@D-man, I don't think we'll see 3d bluray at 4k. As far as I'm aware, every single version of these 4k DLP projectors enables silent mode/disables XPR to work at 120Hz, so there is no pixel shifting and the image is at the native DMD resolution.
@Paul, what size screen and type of material are you using? I currently have a 110" diagonal plain white screen, it's probably 1.1 gain.
I'm still not sure which projector to get, but you're a braver man than me as I've been put off by all the firmware issues. The BenQ's had a known 3d eye sync issue on early firmware and at least one of the optomas apparently didn't have all the correct support for SBS mode.
In all cases, none of these projectors can be upgraded by users, they always have to be sent back.
I'm leaning towards the BenQ TK800 at the moment, for the extra lumens basically.
@D-man, I don't think we'll see 3d bluray at 4k. As far as I'm aware, every single version of these 4k DLP projectors enables silent mode/disables XPR to work at 120Hz, so there is no pixel shifting and the image is at the native DMD resolution.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
He explained his purchase choice in his AVS post. Lens Shift and the color wheel, mainly sealed the deal
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2947088-optoma-uhd50-31.html#post56117842
The .67 uses two frames per image that are interlaced in the same fashion as the old Rear Projection DLP TVs. I would think that it could easily be implemented. On the .47, no way at 4K
The .67 uses two frames per image that are interlaced in the same fashion as the old Rear Projection DLP TVs. I would think that it could easily be implemented. On the .47, no way at 4K
[quote="D-Man11"]....
The .67 uses two frames per image that are interlaced in the same fashion as the old Rear Projection DLP TVs. I would think that it could easily be implemented. On the .47, no way at 4K
[/quote]
Yes I know, and the .47 does the same thing four times which is why the image isn't as sharp, there is more pixel overlap. You probably know that too.
I admire your optimism but the only reason we've had to wait this long is because of manufacturers implementing the absolute mininum (often badly) as mandated by the HDMI spec. They're never going to give us anything like this, not until HFR becomes more common, which is another reason why I've glad Microsoft are pushing 120Hz as well.
There are a couple of people trying to leverage XPR to get even higher refresh rates and resolutions by using a custom shader. Unfortunately, to my knowledge no-one has quite worked out exactly the sequence for the pixel shifting and TI won't document it as it's proprietary technology.
See for example:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3747
and
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2929784-benq-w1700-4k-hdr-3d-dlp-projector-30.html#post56091200
Sorry, I'm being a bit special and can't find the exact page, but in the W1700 thread it's BattleaxeVR who's trying to work this all out. They were trying to take high framerate video and see if was possible.
The .67 uses two frames per image that are interlaced in the same fashion as the old Rear Projection DLP TVs. I would think that it could easily be implemented. On the .47, no way at 4K
Yes I know, and the .47 does the same thing four times which is why the image isn't as sharp, there is more pixel overlap. You probably know that too.
I admire your optimism but the only reason we've had to wait this long is because of manufacturers implementing the absolute mininum (often badly) as mandated by the HDMI spec. They're never going to give us anything like this, not until HFR becomes more common, which is another reason why I've glad Microsoft are pushing 120Hz as well.
There are a couple of people trying to leverage XPR to get even higher refresh rates and resolutions by using a custom shader. Unfortunately, to my knowledge no-one has quite worked out exactly the sequence for the pixel shifting and TI won't document it as it's proprietary technology.
Sorry, I'm being a bit special and can't find the exact page, but in the W1700 thread it's BattleaxeVR who's trying to work this all out. They were trying to take high framerate video and see if was possible.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
If they are trying 4K 3D, they'd have better luck trying Nvidia's Generic DLP or TriDef's Checkerboard. Perhaps even Avatar the Game, if it supports 4K. But I'm pretty certain that Checkerboard needs demuxing or some type of interlaced support, otherwise, it's just two images overlapped in a single image that can't be viewed in 3D
If they are trying 4K 3D, they'd have better luck trying Nvidia's Generic DLP or TriDef's Checkerboard. Perhaps even Avatar the Game, if it supports 4K. But I'm pretty certain that Checkerboard needs demuxing or some type of interlaced support, otherwise, it's just two images overlapped in a single image that can't be viewed in 3D
We might be slightly as cross purposes, but personally i don't believe we'll see 4k 3d (outside of upscaling) until we get 120hz input at 4k and can use frame sequential. It's something we'll have to work out for ourselves because until the next 3d resurgence, we'll get no official support from hdmi. So wait ynril 2030 for that, and I'm not exaggerating!
Also, sadly i think checkerboard is dead and buried. It was only common on the rear projection dlp screens as you say, and those days are behind us now.
We might be slightly as cross purposes, but personally i don't believe we'll see 4k 3d (outside of upscaling) until we get 120hz input at 4k and can use frame sequential. It's something we'll have to work out for ourselves because until the next 3d resurgence, we'll get no official support from hdmi. So wait ynril 2030 for that, and I'm not exaggerating!
Also, sadly i think checkerboard is dead and buried. It was only common on the rear projection dlp screens as you say, and those days are behind us now.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
Checkerboard was available on Samsung TVs and displayed without post processing. It was also available on LG TVs, but was converted to line interleaved. Panasonic also supported the format on some of their TVs and all of their Blu-ray players.
It was also available on the LG 1920x1080 Ultra Short Throw Laser projector made somewhat recently
Hence why I said in another thread, lets hope LG makes a 4K 3D projector.
Checkerboard was available on Samsung TVs and displayed without post processing. It was also available on LG TVs, but was converted to line interleaved. Panasonic also supported the format on some of their TVs and all of their Blu-ray players.
It was also available on the LG 1920x1080 Ultra Short Throw Laser projector made somewhat recently
Hence why I said in another thread, lets hope LG makes a 4K 3D projector.
[quote="rustyk21"]@Paul, what size screen and type of material are you using? I currently have a 110" diagonal plain white screen, it's probably 1.1 gain.
I'm still not sure which projector to get, but you're a braver man than me as I've been put off by all the firmware issues. The BenQ's had a known 3d eye sync issue on early firmware and at least one of the optomas apparently didn't have all the correct support for SBS mode.
In all cases, none of these projectors can be upgraded by users, they always have to be sent back.
[/quote]
I have a 90 inches screen (and regret that I didn't buy 110 inches in the past). It has a 1.2 gain: [url]https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000SNPBQ2/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/url]
Unfortunately Optoma UHD40 also has some firmware issues. The 3D sync invert feature of the OSD is absolutely useless as it produces tearing / vertical line in the picture. For inverting 3D sync I've found another way by pressing CTRL + T twice for DX9 games and F11 for 3dmigoto fixed games. So it's not a big issue any more.
The other thing is that my 10 meter HDMI cable isn't to blame for having artefacts in 4k @ 60hz. I tried a 2m cable and this one had exactly the same issue. When I switched off the projector and unplugged the power cable everything worked flawless again. I'm not sure when exactly this issue appears. Maybe due to changing a lot of settings in the OSD like I did excessively. Today I didn't have this issue any more - 4K worked flawless. I'll further watch this.
Yes it's annoying that the customizer is not allowed to do firmware upgrades by his own. For Benq W1700 a firmware upgrade was provided but only if you send the projector back. That's ridiculus. I think the risk that the projector gets damaged on his way back to the manufacturer is greater than the user damaging the projector by doing the upgrade by his own.
Btw I plugged in 2 HDMI cables to the projector today. So the projector was listed twice in Nvidia Control Panel / Windows. For the first entry I deleted all 4K resolutions via CRU and for the other I kept them. Advantage of this is that you can use DSR without giving up the native 4K resolution. For 3D gaming I can use HDMI port 1 and for 4K I switch to HDMI port 2. That works flawless. Tested it in several games. Dead Space 2 looked damn good in 4k @ 120hz and 3D.
Funny fact: Today I tried another DLP Glasses ("Andoer G15"). They only cost 12€ but produce 0 ghosting. The expensive Hi-Shock Black Diamond which I bought previously have excessive ghosting (45€). I'll send the Hi-Shock back to Amazon... just not worth the money.
[quote="rustyk21"]
I'm leaning towards the BenQ TK800 at the moment, for the extra lumens basically.
[/quote]
BenQ TK800 also sounds interesting due to the high light output. But since it doesn't have a RGBRGB wheel it probably produces rainbow artefacts - at least when gaming.
rustyk21 said:@Paul, what size screen and type of material are you using? I currently have a 110" diagonal plain white screen, it's probably 1.1 gain.
I'm still not sure which projector to get, but you're a braver man than me as I've been put off by all the firmware issues. The BenQ's had a known 3d eye sync issue on early firmware and at least one of the optomas apparently didn't have all the correct support for SBS mode.
In all cases, none of these projectors can be upgraded by users, they always have to be sent back.
Unfortunately Optoma UHD40 also has some firmware issues. The 3D sync invert feature of the OSD is absolutely useless as it produces tearing / vertical line in the picture. For inverting 3D sync I've found another way by pressing CTRL + T twice for DX9 games and F11 for 3dmigoto fixed games. So it's not a big issue any more.
The other thing is that my 10 meter HDMI cable isn't to blame for having artefacts in 4k @ 60hz. I tried a 2m cable and this one had exactly the same issue. When I switched off the projector and unplugged the power cable everything worked flawless again. I'm not sure when exactly this issue appears. Maybe due to changing a lot of settings in the OSD like I did excessively. Today I didn't have this issue any more - 4K worked flawless. I'll further watch this.
Yes it's annoying that the customizer is not allowed to do firmware upgrades by his own. For Benq W1700 a firmware upgrade was provided but only if you send the projector back. That's ridiculus. I think the risk that the projector gets damaged on his way back to the manufacturer is greater than the user damaging the projector by doing the upgrade by his own.
Btw I plugged in 2 HDMI cables to the projector today. So the projector was listed twice in Nvidia Control Panel / Windows. For the first entry I deleted all 4K resolutions via CRU and for the other I kept them. Advantage of this is that you can use DSR without giving up the native 4K resolution. For 3D gaming I can use HDMI port 1 and for 4K I switch to HDMI port 2. That works flawless. Tested it in several games. Dead Space 2 looked damn good in 4k @ 120hz and 3D.
Funny fact: Today I tried another DLP Glasses ("Andoer G15"). They only cost 12€ but produce 0 ghosting. The expensive Hi-Shock Black Diamond which I bought previously have excessive ghosting (45€). I'll send the Hi-Shock back to Amazon... just not worth the money.
rustyk21 said:
I'm leaning towards the BenQ TK800 at the moment, for the extra lumens basically.
BenQ TK800 also sounds interesting due to the high light output. But since it doesn't have a RGBRGB wheel it probably produces rainbow artefacts - at least when gaming.
ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 | Core I7-7700K | 16GB RAM | Win10 Pro x64
Asus ROG Swift PG278Q 3D Vision Monitor
Optoma UHD 40 3D Vision Projector
Paypal donations for 3D Fix Manager: duselpaul86@gmx.de
Don't forget RF transmission for the glasses.
I was disapointed Optoma didn't use the old ZF RF kits like i have :(.
Thank you Paul for the info about the "Andoer G15" glasses.
So, if i understand everything correctly, we no longer need to use the SBS feature of the wonderfull 3DMigoto with such projector?
In the past it didn't work for some titles and have some problems with pointers in T&B.
Pretty sure many guys butts are itching right now. I made it through all the hoops and got the w1070 setup in a unique way I would like to share in the future. Some ways to help you get more immersion from of a stereoscopic setup.
For a good price you can also buy the G15 glasses from [URL="https://www.tomtop.com/p-v849.html"]here[/URL].
I baught them at the same time as the W1070 but since the waiting was killing me I got the [URL="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085JBI6S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1"] SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's[/URL] from Amazon. The G15 glasses took about 3-4 weeks o0. ([color="gray"]Mainly cos of my location. Depending on your destination, you should probably have it more speedily[/color]).
The SainSonic Zodiac GX-30 from Amazon are slightly darker but have the revert sync build into the power button like D-Mann mentioned. One short press to revert. The advantage of the G15's are that they, 99% of the time, dont need to resync. It does feel like the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's put more strain on the eyes. ([color="gray"]lenses are darker[/color]). They are also a bit more bulky and durable which makes them a bit uncomfortable. But I guess wearing glasses over glasses is always going to be uncomfortable in some way. The GX-30's are rechargeable while the G15's use batteries ([color="gray"]two batteries included with each unit which seems to last a few weeks[/color]). In general batteries are cheap and last long so no deal breaker. The G15's also switches off by itself when 3d is disabled with red-flash gone. On Amazon someone complained that the G15's started falling apart after a year. The light flexible flimsy structure is a small sacrifice for comfort. Not meant for kids! So my regular friends use the G15's and the less frequent buddies the rechargeable ones.
One pro tip I never heard someone mention before: You might want to use a high contrast scene for this. Tilt your head up and down while facing the center of your screen. Your eyes will catch the ghosting happening away from where you face your head. When you slightly tilt your glasses, specifically the earpiece, upwards and away from your ears you will see that the sweet spot changes too. That way you could adjust your glasses slightly above your ears for less ghosting where you face. From the 5 different types of glasses I've used none ever slip.
Pretty sure many guys butts are itching right now. I made it through all the hoops and got the w1070 setup in a unique way I would like to share in the future. Some ways to help you get more immersion from of a stereoscopic setup.
For a good price you can also buy the G15 glasses from here.
I baught them at the same time as the W1070 but since the waiting was killing me I got the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's from Amazon. The G15 glasses took about 3-4 weeks o0. (Mainly cos of my location. Depending on your destination, you should probably have it more speedily).
The SainSonic Zodiac GX-30 from Amazon are slightly darker but have the revert sync build into the power button like D-Mann mentioned. One short press to revert. The advantage of the G15's are that they, 99% of the time, dont need to resync. It does feel like the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's put more strain on the eyes. (lenses are darker). They are also a bit more bulky and durable which makes them a bit uncomfortable. But I guess wearing glasses over glasses is always going to be uncomfortable in some way. The GX-30's are rechargeable while the G15's use batteries (two batteries included with each unit which seems to last a few weeks). In general batteries are cheap and last long so no deal breaker. The G15's also switches off by itself when 3d is disabled with red-flash gone. On Amazon someone complained that the G15's started falling apart after a year. The light flexible flimsy structure is a small sacrifice for comfort. Not meant for kids! So my regular friends use the G15's and the less frequent buddies the rechargeable ones.
One pro tip I never heard someone mention before: You might want to use a high contrast scene for this. Tilt your head up and down while facing the center of your screen. Your eyes will catch the ghosting happening away from where you face your head. When you slightly tilt your glasses, specifically the earpiece, upwards and away from your ears you will see that the sweet spot changes too. That way you could adjust your glasses slightly above your ears for less ghosting where you face. From the 5 different types of glasses I've used none ever slip.
[quote="KoelerMeester"]
For a good price you can also buy the G15 glasses from [URL="https://www.tomtop.com/p-v849.html"]here[/URL].
I baught them at the same time as the W1070 but since the waiting was killing me I got the [URL="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0085JBI6S/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1"] SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's[/URL] from Amazon. The G15 glasses took about 3-4 weeks o0. ([color="gray"]Mainly cos of my location. Depending on your destination, you should probably have it more speedily[/color]).
[/quote]
Yes, the G15 are very good for the price. However glasses are a little bit small.
I've gotten my [URL="https://www.alternate.de/InFocus/3D-Brille-DLP-Link-X103-EDUX3-R1/html/product/1178758?campaign=3D-Brille/InFocus/1178758"]Xpand X103-EDUX3-R1[/url] glasses yesterday and their quality is exactly the same as the 3D Vision glasses. Weight and form is nearly the same as well as brightness + 0 ghosting, 100% stable sync.
Thx for the tip with the SainSonic Zodiac. Having a 3D sync invert button directly on the glasses would be perfect. Maybe I'll try them but currently I'm satisfied with the Xpand glasses and the ctrl + T workaround.
KoelerMeester said:
For a good price you can also buy the G15 glasses from here.
I baught them at the same time as the W1070 but since the waiting was killing me I got the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's from Amazon. The G15 glasses took about 3-4 weeks o0. (Mainly cos of my location. Depending on your destination, you should probably have it more speedily).
Yes, the G15 are very good for the price. However glasses are a little bit small.
I've gotten my Xpand X103-EDUX3-R1 glasses yesterday and their quality is exactly the same as the 3D Vision glasses. Weight and form is nearly the same as well as brightness + 0 ghosting, 100% stable sync.
Thx for the tip with the SainSonic Zodiac. Having a 3D sync invert button directly on the glasses would be perfect. Maybe I'll try them but currently I'm satisfied with the Xpand glasses and the ctrl + T workaround.
ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 | Core I7-7700K | 16GB RAM | Win10 Pro x64
Asus ROG Swift PG278Q 3D Vision Monitor
Optoma UHD 40 3D Vision Projector
Paypal donations for 3D Fix Manager: duselpaul86@gmx.de
[quote="KoelerMeester"]The SainSonic Zodiac GX-30 from Amazon are slightly darker but have the revert sync build into the power button like D-Mann mentioned. One short press to revert. [/quote]
Oops, I said long press. But I also haven't used them in a few years, although I do periodically charge them.
So by chance, is generic DLP an option? Have you tried it? I would think the 0.66 might work, the .47 perhaps not due to using 4 interlaced images.
KoelerMeester said:The SainSonic Zodiac GX-30 from Amazon are slightly darker but have the revert sync build into the power button like D-Mann mentioned. One short press to revert.
Oops, I said long press. But I also haven't used them in a few years, although I do periodically charge them.
So by chance, is generic DLP an option? Have you tried it? I would think the 0.66 might work, the .47 perhaps not due to using 4 interlaced images.
[quote="D-Man11"]The DLP Link Flash is just a white flash between frames and nothing more. It does not contain frame information, it simply progresses the shutter glasses from one eye to the next. Their is no difference in flash one thru infinity, it's just a flash.
Thus at any given time, you have a 50/50 chance of them syncing. Hence why it is a good idea to buy a pair of glasses with a reversal feature. So if you look away from the screen and then back, the eyes might be reversed.[/quote]
Well it seems that I'm not entirely right. This was the case with HDMI 1.3 DLP Link Projectors and early versions of the glasses.
It seems that in HDMI 1.4 they added MetaData that corrects this issue. This metadata is not present in Nvidia's generic crt though.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.
You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.
The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.
In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.
Sincerely,
DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
http://www.dlp.com"
Quoted from
[url]https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12091#p54266[/url]
D-Man11 said:The DLP Link Flash is just a white flash between frames and nothing more. It does not contain frame information, it simply progresses the shutter glasses from one eye to the next. Their is no difference in flash one thru infinity, it's just a flash.
Thus at any given time, you have a 50/50 chance of them syncing. Hence why it is a good idea to buy a pair of glasses with a reversal feature. So if you look away from the screen and then back, the eyes might be reversed.
Well it seems that I'm not entirely right. This was the case with HDMI 1.3 DLP Link Projectors and early versions of the glasses.
It seems that in HDMI 1.4 they added MetaData that corrects this issue. This metadata is not present in Nvidia's generic crt though.
You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.
The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.
In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.
[quote="D-Man11"][quote="D-Man11"]The DLP Link Flash is just a white flash between frames and nothing more. It does not contain frame information, it simply progresses the shutter glasses from one eye to the next. Their is no difference in flash one thru infinity, it's just a flash.
Thus at any given time, you have a 50/50 chance of them syncing. Hence why it is a good idea to buy a pair of glasses with a reversal feature. So if you look away from the screen and then back, the eyes might be reversed.[/quote]
Well it seems that I'm not entirely right. This was the case with HDMI 1.3 DLP Link Projectors and early versions of the glasses.
It seems that in HDMI 1.4 they added MetaData that corrects this issue. This metadata is not present in Nvidia's generic crt though.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.
You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.
The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.
In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.
Sincerely,
DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
http://www.dlp.com"
Quoted from
[url]https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12091#p54266[/url][/quote]
I actually read that as meaning that in frame seqeuntial or CRT mode there is no way for the display to know which frame comes first, left or right. They're saying that with framepacked modes such as SBS/Over and Under, it has both eyes in one frame and the it also tells which image is for which eye.
The DLP flash itself is clearly still a dumb flash and sync issues can still be a problem so I think both your posts are correct. That's my interpretation anyway!
But then again, when i've lost sync with DLP flash, I don't remember it ever actually inverting the eyes. It's always just the initial sync. Hmm.
D-Man11 said:The DLP Link Flash is just a white flash between frames and nothing more. It does not contain frame information, it simply progresses the shutter glasses from one eye to the next. Their is no difference in flash one thru infinity, it's just a flash.
Thus at any given time, you have a 50/50 chance of them syncing. Hence why it is a good idea to buy a pair of glasses with a reversal feature. So if you look away from the screen and then back, the eyes might be reversed.
Well it seems that I'm not entirely right. This was the case with HDMI 1.3 DLP Link Projectors and early versions of the glasses.
It seems that in HDMI 1.4 they added MetaData that corrects this issue. This metadata is not present in Nvidia's generic crt though.
You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.
The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.
In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.
I actually read that as meaning that in frame seqeuntial or CRT mode there is no way for the display to know which frame comes first, left or right. They're saying that with framepacked modes such as SBS/Over and Under, it has both eyes in one frame and the it also tells which image is for which eye.
The DLP flash itself is clearly still a dumb flash and sync issues can still be a problem so I think both your posts are correct. That's my interpretation anyway!
But then again, when i've lost sync with DLP flash, I don't remember it ever actually inverting the eyes. It's always just the initial sync. Hmm.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
Yah, 1440P goodness.
Fingers crossed.
While the manufacturers seem receptive with these new PJs, be sure to ask about Checkerboard at 4K on the .67
Hopefully, at the very least they should do 3D Blu-ray playback at 4K
I'm still not sure which projector to get, but you're a braver man than me as I've been put off by all the firmware issues. The BenQ's had a known 3d eye sync issue on early firmware and at least one of the optomas apparently didn't have all the correct support for SBS mode.
In all cases, none of these projectors can be upgraded by users, they always have to be sent back.
I'm leaning towards the BenQ TK800 at the moment, for the extra lumens basically.
@Rage, it does seem to have been confirmed that the Viviteks (0.67 DMD) do support 120Hz.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2968084-vivitek-4k-pj-works-1080p-120hz.html
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2702097-vivitek-hk2288-real-4k-dlp-home-theater-projector-33.html
There was also another thread buried somewhere where another user confirmed he passed the UFO test with a 2288.
They're available in the states for only ~ $1500.
@D-man, I don't think we'll see 3d bluray at 4k. As far as I'm aware, every single version of these 4k DLP projectors enables silent mode/disables XPR to work at 120Hz, so there is no pixel shifting and the image is at the native DMD resolution.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2947088-optoma-uhd50-31.html#post56117842
The .67 uses two frames per image that are interlaced in the same fashion as the old Rear Projection DLP TVs. I would think that it could easily be implemented. On the .47, no way at 4K
Yes I know, and the .47 does the same thing four times which is why the image isn't as sharp, there is more pixel overlap. You probably know that too.
I admire your optimism but the only reason we've had to wait this long is because of manufacturers implementing the absolute mininum (often badly) as mandated by the HDMI spec. They're never going to give us anything like this, not until HFR becomes more common, which is another reason why I've glad Microsoft are pushing 120Hz as well.
There are a couple of people trying to leverage XPR to get even higher refresh rates and resolutions by using a custom shader. Unfortunately, to my knowledge no-one has quite worked out exactly the sequence for the pixel shifting and TI won't document it as it's proprietary technology.
See for example:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3747
and
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-digital-projectors-under-3-000-usd-msrp/2929784-benq-w1700-4k-hdr-3d-dlp-projector-30.html#post56091200
Sorry, I'm being a bit special and can't find the exact page, but in the W1700 thread it's BattleaxeVR who's trying to work this all out. They were trying to take high framerate video and see if was possible.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
Also, sadly i think checkerboard is dead and buried. It was only common on the rear projection dlp screens as you say, and those days are behind us now.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310
It was also available on the LG 1920x1080 Ultra Short Throw Laser projector made somewhat recently
Hence why I said in another thread, lets hope LG makes a 4K 3D projector.
I have a 90 inches screen (and regret that I didn't buy 110 inches in the past). It has a 1.2 gain: https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B000SNPBQ2/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Unfortunately Optoma UHD40 also has some firmware issues. The 3D sync invert feature of the OSD is absolutely useless as it produces tearing / vertical line in the picture. For inverting 3D sync I've found another way by pressing CTRL + T twice for DX9 games and F11 for 3dmigoto fixed games. So it's not a big issue any more.
The other thing is that my 10 meter HDMI cable isn't to blame for having artefacts in 4k @ 60hz. I tried a 2m cable and this one had exactly the same issue. When I switched off the projector and unplugged the power cable everything worked flawless again. I'm not sure when exactly this issue appears. Maybe due to changing a lot of settings in the OSD like I did excessively. Today I didn't have this issue any more - 4K worked flawless. I'll further watch this.
Yes it's annoying that the customizer is not allowed to do firmware upgrades by his own. For Benq W1700 a firmware upgrade was provided but only if you send the projector back. That's ridiculus. I think the risk that the projector gets damaged on his way back to the manufacturer is greater than the user damaging the projector by doing the upgrade by his own.
Btw I plugged in 2 HDMI cables to the projector today. So the projector was listed twice in Nvidia Control Panel / Windows. For the first entry I deleted all 4K resolutions via CRU and for the other I kept them. Advantage of this is that you can use DSR without giving up the native 4K resolution. For 3D gaming I can use HDMI port 1 and for 4K I switch to HDMI port 2. That works flawless. Tested it in several games. Dead Space 2 looked damn good in 4k @ 120hz and 3D.
Funny fact: Today I tried another DLP Glasses ("Andoer G15"). They only cost 12€ but produce 0 ghosting. The expensive Hi-Shock Black Diamond which I bought previously have excessive ghosting (45€). I'll send the Hi-Shock back to Amazon... just not worth the money.
BenQ TK800 also sounds interesting due to the high light output. But since it doesn't have a RGBRGB wheel it probably produces rainbow artefacts - at least when gaming.
ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 | Core I7-7700K | 16GB RAM | Win10 Pro x64
Asus ROG Swift PG278Q 3D Vision Monitor
Optoma UHD 40 3D Vision Projector
Paypal donations for 3D Fix Manager: duselpaul86@gmx.de
4K3D on passive LG OLED 4K TV 65C6V, GTX 1080 Ti, Win 8.1 64 Pro, i7-7700, 3D-Vision 2 on Benq LW61-LED PJ. HTC Vive. Panasonic Z-10000 3D Camcorder
I was disapointed Optoma didn't use the old ZF RF kits like i have :(.
Thank you Paul for the info about the "Andoer G15" glasses.
So, if i understand everything correctly, we no longer need to use the SBS feature of the wonderfull 3DMigoto with such projector?
In the past it didn't work for some titles and have some problems with pointers in T&B.
For a good price you can also buy the G15 glasses from here.
I baught them at the same time as the W1070 but since the waiting was killing me I got the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's from Amazon. The G15 glasses took about 3-4 weeks o0. (Mainly cos of my location. Depending on your destination, you should probably have it more speedily).
The SainSonic Zodiac GX-30 from Amazon are slightly darker but have the revert sync build into the power button like D-Mann mentioned. One short press to revert. The advantage of the G15's are that they, 99% of the time, dont need to resync. It does feel like the SainSonic Zodiac GX-30's put more strain on the eyes. (lenses are darker). They are also a bit more bulky and durable which makes them a bit uncomfortable. But I guess wearing glasses over glasses is always going to be uncomfortable in some way. The GX-30's are rechargeable while the G15's use batteries (two batteries included with each unit which seems to last a few weeks). In general batteries are cheap and last long so no deal breaker. The G15's also switches off by itself when 3d is disabled with red-flash gone. On Amazon someone complained that the G15's started falling apart after a year. The light flexible flimsy structure is a small sacrifice for comfort. Not meant for kids! So my regular friends use the G15's and the less frequent buddies the rechargeable ones.
One pro tip I never heard someone mention before: You might want to use a high contrast scene for this. Tilt your head up and down while facing the center of your screen. Your eyes will catch the ghosting happening away from where you face your head. When you slightly tilt your glasses, specifically the earpiece, upwards and away from your ears you will see that the sweet spot changes too. That way you could adjust your glasses slightly above your ears for less ghosting where you face. From the 5 different types of glasses I've used none ever slip.
Yes, the G15 are very good for the price. However glasses are a little bit small.
I've gotten my Xpand X103-EDUX3-R1 glasses yesterday and their quality is exactly the same as the 3D Vision glasses. Weight and form is nearly the same as well as brightness + 0 ghosting, 100% stable sync.
Thx for the tip with the SainSonic Zodiac. Having a 3D sync invert button directly on the glasses would be perfect. Maybe I'll try them but currently I'm satisfied with the Xpand glasses and the ctrl + T workaround.
ASUS ROG Strix GeForce GTX 1080 | Core I7-7700K | 16GB RAM | Win10 Pro x64
Asus ROG Swift PG278Q 3D Vision Monitor
Optoma UHD 40 3D Vision Projector
Paypal donations for 3D Fix Manager: duselpaul86@gmx.de
Oops, I said long press. But I also haven't used them in a few years, although I do periodically charge them.
So by chance, is generic DLP an option? Have you tried it? I would think the 0.66 might work, the .47 perhaps not due to using 4 interlaced images.
Well it seems that I'm not entirely right. This was the case with HDMI 1.3 DLP Link Projectors and early versions of the glasses.
It seems that in HDMI 1.4 they added MetaData that corrects this issue. This metadata is not present in Nvidia's generic crt though.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.
You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.
The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.
In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.
Sincerely,
DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
http://www.dlp.com"
Quoted from
https://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12091#p54266
I actually read that as meaning that in frame seqeuntial or CRT mode there is no way for the display to know which frame comes first, left or right. They're saying that with framepacked modes such as SBS/Over and Under, it has both eyes in one frame and the it also tells which image is for which eye.
The DLP flash itself is clearly still a dumb flash and sync issues can still be a problem so I think both your posts are correct. That's my interpretation anyway!
But then again, when i've lost sync with DLP flash, I don't remember it ever actually inverting the eyes. It's always just the initial sync. Hmm.
Gigabyte RTX2080TI Gaming OC, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310