I, and many others, have been beating the XP drum for months. It seems reasonable to try to hook as many XP gamers as you can by supporting it, then encouraging them to upgrade to W7 by showing them all the cool, enhanced features they'll get once they do. Most of us will upgrade to 7 sooner or later, and Nvidia can increase their market share by offering this support across OSes (and before someone else offers their own [url="http://3dvision-blog.com/is-ati-preparing-an-alternative-to-nvidias-geforce-3d-vision/"]3D solution[/url] that may or may not be XP-compatible).
I, and many others, have been beating the XP drum for months. It seems reasonable to try to hook as many XP gamers as you can by supporting it, then encouraging them to upgrade to W7 by showing them all the cool, enhanced features they'll get once they do. Most of us will upgrade to 7 sooner or later, and Nvidia can increase their market share by offering this support across OSes (and before someone else offers their own 3D solution that may or may not be XP-compatible).
Using 3D Vision & Quadro 4000 for GIS apps on 64-bit Windows 7/Dell T7500 Workstation
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']I do not personally wish Nvidia to invest budget in XP support.[/quote]
Hi TrekCZ. Don’t worry, it looks like nVidia will not be diverting any resources into XP support (other than for Quadro users, which is commendable), and that is their prerogative.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']They can do really exciting things with that money and human resources instead to invest them in phased out product.[/quote]
Yes, they can do really exciting things. However, I just hope that 3D Vision itself does not become one of those “phased out products†before its time. If 3D Vision does not have a large enough installed user base, it does not make financial sense to pour adequate money and time into driver updates, tech support, developer relations (for properly coded stereo3D games), and so on. I really hope the sales figures are good and the installed base is big enough to keep 3D Vision in production and supported properly. Of course, neither you nor I know the sales figures of 3D Vision, or how much it costs to maintain driver development, tech support, and developer relations.
For XP users such as myself, all we can do is watch how the overall market unfolds, whether hardware sales continue, and how driver support is maintained (via the feedback of their installed base of customers) over the next few financial quarters until we eventually upgrade.
[quote]You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time.[/quote]
Absolutely true. Hopefully, 3D Vision will die of old age, not in front of a firing squad composed of nVidia corporate accountants.
EDIT/ADDENDUM: BigLars, thanks for that link. Ironically, when ATI revealed Eyefinity, I thought that may actually motivate nVidia to step up promotion and support of 3D Vision, since it is a feature that differentiates the two companies, and nVidia has no direct response to Eyefinity that has been revealed. If ATI releases a stereoscopic 3D solution of their own...it will be interesting, to say the least.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']I do not personally wish Nvidia to invest budget in XP support.
Hi TrekCZ. Don’t worry, it looks like nVidia will not be diverting any resources into XP support (other than for Quadro users, which is commendable), and that is their prerogative.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']They can do really exciting things with that money and human resources instead to invest them in phased out product.
Yes, they can do really exciting things. However, I just hope that 3D Vision itself does not become one of those “phased out products†before its time. If 3D Vision does not have a large enough installed user base, it does not make financial sense to pour adequate money and time into driver updates, tech support, developer relations (for properly coded stereo3D games), and so on. I really hope the sales figures are good and the installed base is big enough to keep 3D Vision in production and supported properly. Of course, neither you nor I know the sales figures of 3D Vision, or how much it costs to maintain driver development, tech support, and developer relations.
For XP users such as myself, all we can do is watch how the overall market unfolds, whether hardware sales continue, and how driver support is maintained (via the feedback of their installed base of customers) over the next few financial quarters until we eventually upgrade.
You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time.
Absolutely true. Hopefully, 3D Vision will die of old age, not in front of a firing squad composed of nVidia corporate accountants.
EDIT/ADDENDUM: BigLars, thanks for that link. Ironically, when ATI revealed Eyefinity, I thought that may actually motivate nVidia to step up promotion and support of 3D Vision, since it is a feature that differentiates the two companies, and nVidia has no direct response to Eyefinity that has been revealed. If ATI releases a stereoscopic 3D solution of their own...it will be interesting, to say the least.
They say in the [url="http://nvidia.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/nvidia.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2318&p_created=1231461745&p_sid=MpSP9-Kj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NjQsNjQmcF9wcm9kcz0xMzImcF9jYXRzPTAmcF9wdj0xLjEzMiZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0y&p_li=&p_topview=1"]FAQ[/url] (not really update since win7 not mention) that depending on the demand, 3D vision might eventually be support by XP. But, things going, less and less people will use XP over the years.
When i got the glass, i installed win7 Beta, i tried Vista for a week, and i went back to 7. Now, i have the win7 OEM, and everything runs very well.
They say in the FAQ (not really update since win7 not mention) that depending on the demand, 3D vision might eventually be support by XP. But, things going, less and less people will use XP over the years.
When i got the glass, i installed win7 Beta, i tried Vista for a week, and i went back to 7. Now, i have the win7 OEM, and everything runs very well.
XP Lack of Support is crazy, and if memory serves, when I visited this site 6 months ago, XP was shown, supported, at SP3. I have now purchased my equipment, monitor and glasses.
Vista was and remains a loser; few hobbyists selected it unless they got stuck with it on a computer puchase through lack of information.
Windows 7 is untried and not released.
It seems to me that NVIDIA has indeed made a major error here, and a patch to XP should be built.
This severely restricts their market potential, though they got their money out of me, others will get the word and either wait, or turn elsewhere.
Who are they selling to? Misinformed and probably unhappy Vista owners, and rapid adopters of M7. That cannot be 15% of the available market.
Do the sums, you MBAs and release the support for an XP version.
XP Lack of Support is crazy, and if memory serves, when I visited this site 6 months ago, XP was shown, supported, at SP3. I have now purchased my equipment, monitor and glasses.
Vista was and remains a loser; few hobbyists selected it unless they got stuck with it on a computer puchase through lack of information.
Windows 7 is untried and not released.
It seems to me that NVIDIA has indeed made a major error here, and a patch to XP should be built.
This severely restricts their market potential, though they got their money out of me, others will get the word and either wait, or turn elsewhere.
Who are they selling to? Misinformed and probably unhappy Vista owners, and rapid adopters of M7. That cannot be 15% of the available market.
Do the sums, you MBAs and release the support for an XP version.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602333' date='Oct 18 2009, 06:08 PM']Hmm, but XP are somehow discontinued.
You can not expect that companies will develop stuff for XP anymore. It costs money, a lot of money.
With this I do not have problem really. Or wait I want DOS 6.22, 3D Vison for DOS.
Or wait I have in my case Atari 800, it is pissing me off that 3D Vision does not work with Atari 800. Shiiiiiet.[/quote]
So, what are you running? A beta W7? or Vista? See my post below for the basic economic argument that it will pay NVIDIA to provide an XP version.
It is in their economic interest to do so. This fragments their market.
You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time. Yes this is sad truth but inevitably.
When our dog died we just dug grave in our garden and dog is resting in heaven.
Now do the same with Windows XP.[/quote]
Another discussion we've had, and will continue to, I'm sure! Your link to MS says XP is far from dead, just not actively supported, and the end of "Extended Support Retired" isn't for nearly five more years ("08/04/2014"). The [url="http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey"]Steam link[/url] posted by zaz123 indicates there's still plenty of XP gamers. That number will certainly continue to decline but it's a sizeable market [i]today[/i] that remains unexploited. The question is will nvidia decide they want them or will ATI swoop in with their own 3D solution. Perhaps neither, but the point we're trying to emphasize is that if 'nvidia builds it, they will come', and maybe even stick around when they do upgrade to 7.
You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time. Yes this is sad truth but inevitably.
When our dog died we just dug grave in our garden and dog is resting in heaven.
Now do the same with Windows XP.
Another discussion we've had, and will continue to, I'm sure! Your link to MS says XP is far from dead, just not actively supported, and the end of "Extended Support Retired" isn't for nearly five more years ("08/04/2014"). The Steam link posted by zaz123 indicates there's still plenty of XP gamers. That number will certainly continue to decline but it's a sizeable market today that remains unexploited. The question is will nvidia decide they want them or will ATI swoop in with their own 3D solution. Perhaps neither, but the point we're trying to emphasize is that if 'nvidia builds it, they will come', and maybe even stick around when they do upgrade to 7.
Using 3D Vision & Quadro 4000 for GIS apps on 64-bit Windows 7/Dell T7500 Workstation
Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.
It is question whether these systems would be able to deliver at least some minimal fps in stereo. And it is question whether these people would
buy really accessories for stereo so investment in XP support woud bring real money.
And a lot of people (including me) are buying games in normal nice stores, because steam in Euro is very expensive, e.g. Batman for 50 Eur is crazy. So Steam prices suck and so its survey.
Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.
It is question whether these systems would be able to deliver at least some minimal fps in stereo. And it is question whether these people would
buy really accessories for stereo so investment in XP support woud bring real money.
And a lot of people (including me) are buying games in normal nice stores, because steam in Euro is very expensive, e.g. Batman for 50 Eur is crazy. So Steam prices suck and so its survey.
Original Reference: [url="http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693342/Live-Blog-DICE-2009-Keynote---Gabe-Newell-Valve-Software.html"]http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693342/Live-Blog-DICE-2009-Keynote---Gabe-Newell-Valve-Software.html /blarg.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':/' />/http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/6...-Software.html [/url]
If you have a more comprehensive survey detailing the OS/hardware gamers are using, please post it—I think it will help us all understand the situation better. The Steam Hardware Survey has an absolutely huge sample size and does not rely on human input of data—it scans your system and reports the data without human error. Statistically, the Steam Hardware Survey is very, very strong evidence.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='603988' date='Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM']Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.[/quote]
Of the 52% of people using Windows XP, there will be people with low end systems, and people with high end systems—and the same is true of people with Vista—there will be people with high-end Vista systems and people with low end Vista systems. Perhaps Valve provides this more detailed information to other companies for a fee.
In any case, it is nVidia itself that defines the hardware requirements of 3D Vision:
* Intel® Core™2 Duo or AMD Athlon™ X2 CPU or higher
* 1GB of system memory. (2GB is recommended)
* 100 MB free disk space
* GeForce 8800 GT
Now, is it reasonable to think that a fair number of those 52% of XP gamers meet this nVidia-defined minimum hardware requirement? I would think so. There is obviously more to nVidia’s decision to lock out XP than meets the eye—and we just don’t know what those reasons were for sure--only nVidia knows.
In my opinion, even if Windows 7 is adopted at a furious rate and people build/buy new systems to run it on, there was a missed opportunity to make 3D Vision available to XP users at launch. To many gamers, I fear that 3D Vision is old news…just a personal fear though, hopefully not a reality.
If you have a more comprehensive survey detailing the OS/hardware gamers are using, please post it—I think it will help us all understand the situation better. The Steam Hardware Survey has an absolutely huge sample size and does not rely on human input of data—it scans your system and reports the data without human error. Statistically, the Steam Hardware Survey is very, very strong evidence.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='603988' date='Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM']Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.
Of the 52% of people using Windows XP, there will be people with low end systems, and people with high end systems—and the same is true of people with Vista—there will be people with high-end Vista systems and people with low end Vista systems. Perhaps Valve provides this more detailed information to other companies for a fee.
In any case, it is nVidia itself that defines the hardware requirements of 3D Vision:
* Intel® Core™2 Duo or AMD Athlon™ X2 CPU or higher
* 1GB of system memory. (2GB is recommended)
* 100 MB free disk space
* GeForce 8800 GT
Now, is it reasonable to think that a fair number of those 52% of XP gamers meet this nVidia-defined minimum hardware requirement? I would think so. There is obviously more to nVidia’s decision to lock out XP than meets the eye—and we just don’t know what those reasons were for sure--only nVidia knows.
In my opinion, even if Windows 7 is adopted at a furious rate and people build/buy new systems to run it on, there was a missed opportunity to make 3D Vision available to XP users at launch. To many gamers, I fear that 3D Vision is old news…just a personal fear though, hopefully not a reality.
Just install Windows 7. Nvidia has been sidestepping XP because they KNOW the big M is gonna release Windows 7 and just biding their time. Gamers will end up upgrading to Windows 7 because its a whole lot faster and far more stable than XP.
I have a W7 x64 / XP x86 dual boot. And I haven't booted to the XP partition in a long long loooonnnggg time.
Just install Windows 7. Nvidia has been sidestepping XP because they KNOW the big M is gonna release Windows 7 and just biding their time. Gamers will end up upgrading to Windows 7 because its a whole lot faster and far more stable than XP.
I have a W7 x64 / XP x86 dual boot. And I haven't booted to the XP partition in a long long loooonnnggg time.
I agree that I was upset too when Nvidia first dropped XP support but theres not much to do about it at this point. If they were going to continue legacy support they would have done so. I don't see them going back now, especially since Windows 7 just launched. And really, how old is XP now? There comes a point where you just have to move on.
I agree that I was upset too when Nvidia first dropped XP support but theres not much to do about it at this point. If they were going to continue legacy support they would have done so. I don't see them going back now, especially since Windows 7 just launched. And really, how old is XP now? There comes a point where you just have to move on.
I think the general feeling of this thread is, "it's time to move on from XP." Making NVIDIA's decision to not support it very valid. Could there be a few more people that use 3D Vision if it was fully supported by XP? Sure. But tying up the resources to make it work correctly across 2.5 OSes would mean a longer time to wait for updates, and probably reduced quality.
Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does [b]not[/b] mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole (I personally hate steam, I only have it for the Valve games that I haven't played in a number of years, games with almost no 3D Vision appeal). Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
I think the general feeling of this thread is, "it's time to move on from XP." Making NVIDIA's decision to not support it very valid. Could there be a few more people that use 3D Vision if it was fully supported by XP? Sure. But tying up the resources to make it work correctly across 2.5 OSes would mean a longer time to wait for updates, and probably reduced quality.
Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does not mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole (I personally hate steam, I only have it for the Valve games that I haven't played in a number of years, games with almost no 3D Vision appeal). Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous
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actually nvidia dont work to fix win7/vista stereoscopic drivers. (all user have serious flickering problems/ghosting etcc..)
u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
Just to clarify my position: even if XP drivers are released tomorrow, I will not be buying 3D Vision until a year from now. I’m just hoping that the sales are strong enough to maintain proper service and support of the product up to (and beyond) that time. As in my previous posts on this thread, I know full well that the chance of XP support was/is nil (and again, it would not make a difference for me anyway), I am just reflecting on possible factors in nVidia's decision, because it is an interesting thing to examine.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does [b]not[/b] mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole
Amorphous[/quote]
With every survey, there will be outliers, and with 3D Vision, nVidia obviously aimed at those to the right of the curve. I never said that the survey was perfect, only that it was a very strong metric—one that most developers should heed if they wish to move inventory in their target market. Yes, the unclean masses are playing CS 1.6 on outdated systems :) . The laws may be different at the very high end where 3D Vision resides...I guess we will find out.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous[/quote]
This reasoning is seemingly sound. However, let’s ignore the raw overall OS percentages—lets look at the numbers attached to the nVidia-defined hardware GPU requirements (ignoring the rest of the numbers not compatible with 3D Vision—sweeping the CS 1.6-type systems under the rug); we may see some interesting information. (Note that in the “Vista with DX10 GPU†summaries, Valve combines the Vista data with Windows 7 data. Also note that 0.15% of users run Win2000, which is statistically insignificant—assuming they even have an 8800 or above GPU—so don’t bother trying to argue that it skews the XP data :) ):
* 3D Vision “Low-endâ€: 14.37% have an 8800-series GPU, but only 5.11% of users have an 8800-level GPU combined with Vista/Win7--so 9.26% of 8800-series GPUs are essentially run under XP (a 1.81x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “Midrangeâ€: 4.18% have a GTX 260, and 1.9% of those users have a GTX 260 combined with Vista/7—so 2.28% of GTX 260 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.2x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “High Endâ€: 1.26% of users have the GTX 285, but only 0.65% are using a GTX 285 with Vista/7--so 0.61% of GTX 285 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.06x majority in favor of Vista/7—about an equal split between XP and Vista/Win7 users, even at the “high endâ€).
So, based on nVidia’s own hardware requirements, the machines are there to run 3D Vision on XP—and remember that these numbers are from today—3D Vision was released almost a year ago. Again, nobody here knows how much money it would have cost to implement XP support, but I fear it is a moot point—the real opportunity was a year ago. Bad decision? Good decision? Who knows?
[quote]Quoted from ragefactory:
actually nvidia dont work to fix win7/vista stereoscopic drivers. (all user have serious flickering problems/ghosting etcc..)
u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
lol[/quote]
You have my sympathy, and sincere hope that those problems get resolved—truly. I have tried 3D Vision a number of times, and I want it to succeed.
Just to clarify my position: even if XP drivers are released tomorrow, I will not be buying 3D Vision until a year from now. I’m just hoping that the sales are strong enough to maintain proper service and support of the product up to (and beyond) that time. As in my previous posts on this thread, I know full well that the chance of XP support was/is nil (and again, it would not make a difference for me anyway), I am just reflecting on possible factors in nVidia's decision, because it is an interesting thing to examine.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does not mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole
Amorphous
With every survey, there will be outliers, and with 3D Vision, nVidia obviously aimed at those to the right of the curve. I never said that the survey was perfect, only that it was a very strong metric—one that most developers should heed if they wish to move inventory in their target market. Yes, the unclean masses are playing CS 1.6 on outdated systems :) . The laws may be different at the very high end where 3D Vision resides...I guess we will find out.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous
This reasoning is seemingly sound. However, let’s ignore the raw overall OS percentages—lets look at the numbers attached to the nVidia-defined hardware GPU requirements (ignoring the rest of the numbers not compatible with 3D Vision—sweeping the CS 1.6-type systems under the rug); we may see some interesting information. (Note that in the “Vista with DX10 GPU†summaries, Valve combines the Vista data with Windows 7 data. Also note that 0.15% of users run Win2000, which is statistically insignificant—assuming they even have an 8800 or above GPU—so don’t bother trying to argue that it skews the XP data :) ):
* 3D Vision “Low-endâ€: 14.37% have an 8800-series GPU, but only 5.11% of users have an 8800-level GPU combined with Vista/Win7--so 9.26% of 8800-series GPUs are essentially run under XP (a 1.81x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “Midrangeâ€: 4.18% have a GTX 260, and 1.9% of those users have a GTX 260 combined with Vista/7—so 2.28% of GTX 260 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.2x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “High Endâ€: 1.26% of users have the GTX 285, but only 0.65% are using a GTX 285 with Vista/7--so 0.61% of GTX 285 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.06x majority in favor of Vista/7—about an equal split between XP and Vista/Win7 users, even at the “high endâ€).
So, based on nVidia’s own hardware requirements, the machines are there to run 3D Vision on XP—and remember that these numbers are from today—3D Vision was released almost a year ago. Again, nobody here knows how much money it would have cost to implement XP support, but I fear it is a moot point—the real opportunity was a year ago. Bad decision? Good decision? Who knows?
Quoted from ragefactory:
actually nvidia dont work to fix win7/vista stereoscopic drivers. (all user have serious flickering problems/ghosting etcc..)
u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
lol
You have my sympathy, and sincere hope that those problems get resolved—truly. I have tried 3D Vision a number of times, and I want it to succeed.
Using 3D Vision & Quadro 4000 for GIS apps on 64-bit Windows 7/Dell T7500 Workstation
Hi TrekCZ. Don’t worry, it looks like nVidia will not be diverting any resources into XP support (other than for Quadro users, which is commendable), and that is their prerogative.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']They can do really exciting things with that money and human resources instead to invest them in phased out product.[/quote]
Yes, they can do really exciting things. However, I just hope that 3D Vision itself does not become one of those “phased out products†before its time. If 3D Vision does not have a large enough installed user base, it does not make financial sense to pour adequate money and time into driver updates, tech support, developer relations (for properly coded stereo3D games), and so on. I really hope the sales figures are good and the installed base is big enough to keep 3D Vision in production and supported properly. Of course, neither you nor I know the sales figures of 3D Vision, or how much it costs to maintain driver development, tech support, and developer relations.
For XP users such as myself, all we can do is watch how the overall market unfolds, whether hardware sales continue, and how driver support is maintained (via the feedback of their installed base of customers) over the next few financial quarters until we eventually upgrade.
[quote]You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time.[/quote]
Absolutely true. Hopefully, 3D Vision will die of old age, not in front of a firing squad composed of nVidia corporate accountants.
EDIT/ADDENDUM: BigLars, thanks for that link. Ironically, when ATI revealed Eyefinity, I thought that may actually motivate nVidia to step up promotion and support of 3D Vision, since it is a feature that differentiates the two companies, and nVidia has no direct response to Eyefinity that has been revealed. If ATI releases a stereoscopic 3D solution of their own...it will be interesting, to say the least.
Hi TrekCZ. Don’t worry, it looks like nVidia will not be diverting any resources into XP support (other than for Quadro users, which is commendable), and that is their prerogative.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='602484' date='Oct 18 2009, 01:53 PM']They can do really exciting things with that money and human resources instead to invest them in phased out product.
Yes, they can do really exciting things. However, I just hope that 3D Vision itself does not become one of those “phased out products†before its time. If 3D Vision does not have a large enough installed user base, it does not make financial sense to pour adequate money and time into driver updates, tech support, developer relations (for properly coded stereo3D games), and so on. I really hope the sales figures are good and the installed base is big enough to keep 3D Vision in production and supported properly. Of course, neither you nor I know the sales figures of 3D Vision, or how much it costs to maintain driver development, tech support, and developer relations.
For XP users such as myself, all we can do is watch how the overall market unfolds, whether hardware sales continue, and how driver support is maintained (via the feedback of their installed base of customers) over the next few financial quarters until we eventually upgrade.
Absolutely true. Hopefully, 3D Vision will die of old age, not in front of a firing squad composed of nVidia corporate accountants.
EDIT/ADDENDUM: BigLars, thanks for that link. Ironically, when ATI revealed Eyefinity, I thought that may actually motivate nVidia to step up promotion and support of 3D Vision, since it is a feature that differentiates the two companies, and nVidia has no direct response to Eyefinity that has been revealed. If ATI releases a stereoscopic 3D solution of their own...it will be interesting, to say the least.
When i got the glass, i installed win7 Beta, i tried Vista for a week, and i went back to 7. Now, i have the win7 OEM, and everything runs very well.
When i got the glass, i installed win7 Beta, i tried Vista for a week, and i went back to 7. Now, i have the win7 OEM, and everything runs very well.
Vista was and remains a loser; few hobbyists selected it unless they got stuck with it on a computer puchase through lack of information.
Windows 7 is untried and not released.
It seems to me that NVIDIA has indeed made a major error here, and a patch to XP should be built.
This severely restricts their market potential, though they got their money out of me, others will get the word and either wait, or turn elsewhere.
Who are they selling to? Misinformed and probably unhappy Vista owners, and rapid adopters of M7. That cannot be 15% of the available market.
Do the sums, you MBAs and release the support for an XP version.
Best regards to all.
END
Vista was and remains a loser; few hobbyists selected it unless they got stuck with it on a computer puchase through lack of information.
Windows 7 is untried and not released.
It seems to me that NVIDIA has indeed made a major error here, and a patch to XP should be built.
This severely restricts their market potential, though they got their money out of me, others will get the word and either wait, or turn elsewhere.
Who are they selling to? Misinformed and probably unhappy Vista owners, and rapid adopters of M7. That cannot be 15% of the available market.
Do the sums, you MBAs and release the support for an XP version.
Best regards to all.
END
You can not expect that companies will develop stuff for XP anymore. It costs money, a lot of money.
With this I do not have problem really. Or wait I want DOS 6.22, 3D Vison for DOS.
Or wait I have in my case Atari 800, it is pissing me off that 3D Vision does not work with Atari 800. Shiiiiiet.[/quote]
So, what are you running? A beta W7? or Vista? See my post below for the basic economic argument that it will pay NVIDIA to provide an XP version.
It is in their economic interest to do so. This fragments their market.
We are not whining, we are being realistic.
Paul Muller, retired IT consultant.
You can not expect that companies will develop stuff for XP anymore. It costs money, a lot of money.
With this I do not have problem really. Or wait I want DOS 6.22, 3D Vison for DOS.
Or wait I have in my case Atari 800, it is pissing me off that 3D Vision does not work with Atari 800. Shiiiiiet.
So, what are you running? A beta W7? or Vista? See my post below for the basic economic argument that it will pay NVIDIA to provide an XP version.
It is in their economic interest to do so. This fragments their market.
We are not whining, we are being realistic.
Paul Muller, retired IT consultant.
It's time to move on folks, get with the program (literally)
XP is dead.
Deal with it.
It's time to move on folks, get with the program (literally)
XP is dead.
Deal with it.
You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time. Yes this is sad truth but inevitably.
When our dog died we just dug grave in our garden and dog is resting in heaven.
Now do the same with Windows XP.[/quote]
Another discussion we've had, and will continue to, I'm sure! Your link to MS says XP is far from dead, just not actively supported, and the end of "Extended Support Retired" isn't for nearly five more years ("08/04/2014"). The [url="http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey"]Steam link[/url] posted by zaz123 indicates there's still plenty of XP gamers. That number will certainly continue to decline but it's a sizeable market [i]today[/i] that remains unexploited. The question is will nvidia decide they want them or will ATI swoop in with their own 3D solution. Perhaps neither, but the point we're trying to emphasize is that if 'nvidia builds it, they will come', and maybe even stick around when they do upgrade to 7.
You must realise that everyone and everything dies in time. Yes this is sad truth but inevitably.
When our dog died we just dug grave in our garden and dog is resting in heaven.
Now do the same with Windows XP.
Another discussion we've had, and will continue to, I'm sure! Your link to MS says XP is far from dead, just not actively supported, and the end of "Extended Support Retired" isn't for nearly five more years ("08/04/2014"). The Steam link posted by zaz123 indicates there's still plenty of XP gamers. That number will certainly continue to decline but it's a sizeable market today that remains unexploited. The question is will nvidia decide they want them or will ATI swoop in with their own 3D solution. Perhaps neither, but the point we're trying to emphasize is that if 'nvidia builds it, they will come', and maybe even stick around when they do upgrade to 7.
Using 3D Vision & Quadro 4000 for GIS apps on 64-bit Windows 7/Dell T7500 Workstation
It is question whether these systems would be able to deliver at least some minimal fps in stereo. And it is question whether these people would
buy really accessories for stereo so investment in XP support woud bring real money.
And a lot of people (including me) are buying games in normal nice stores, because steam in Euro is very expensive, e.g. Batman for 50 Eur is crazy. So Steam prices suck and so its survey.
It is question whether these systems would be able to deliver at least some minimal fps in stereo. And it is question whether these people would
buy really accessories for stereo so investment in XP support woud bring real money.
And a lot of people (including me) are buying games in normal nice stores, because steam in Euro is very expensive, e.g. Batman for 50 Eur is crazy. So Steam prices suck and so its survey.
TrekCZ,
As of 02/18/09, there were 20 million active Steam accounts:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29[/url]
Original Reference: [url="http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693342/Live-Blog-DICE-2009-Keynote---Gabe-Newell-Valve-Software.html"]http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693342/Live-Blog-DICE-2009-Keynote---Gabe-Newell-Valve-Software.html
If you have a more comprehensive survey detailing the OS/hardware gamers are using, please post it—I think it will help us all understand the situation better. The Steam Hardware Survey has an absolutely huge sample size and does not rely on human input of data—it scans your system and reports the data without human error. Statistically, the Steam Hardware Survey is very, very strong evidence.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='603988' date='Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM']Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.[/quote]
Of the 52% of people using Windows XP, there will be people with low end systems, and people with high end systems—and the same is true of people with Vista—there will be people with high-end Vista systems and people with low end Vista systems. Perhaps Valve provides this more detailed information to other companies for a fee.
In any case, it is nVidia itself that defines the hardware requirements of 3D Vision:
[url="http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Requirements.html"]http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Requirements.html[/url]
* Intel® Core™2 Duo or AMD Athlon™ X2 CPU or higher
* 1GB of system memory. (2GB is recommended)
* 100 MB free disk space
* GeForce 8800 GT
Now, is it reasonable to think that a fair number of those 52% of XP gamers meet this nVidia-defined minimum hardware requirement? I would think so. There is obviously more to nVidia’s decision to lock out XP than meets the eye—and we just don’t know what those reasons were for sure--only nVidia knows.
In my opinion, even if Windows 7 is adopted at a furious rate and people build/buy new systems to run it on, there was a missed opportunity to make 3D Vision available to XP users at launch. To many gamers, I fear that 3D Vision is old news…just a personal fear though, hopefully not a reality.
zaz123
TrekCZ,
As of 02/18/09, there were 20 million active Steam accounts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29
Original Reference: http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/693342/Live-Blog-DICE-2009-Keynote---Gabe-Newell-Valve-Software.html
If you have a more comprehensive survey detailing the OS/hardware gamers are using, please post it—I think it will help us all understand the situation better. The Steam Hardware Survey has an absolutely huge sample size and does not rely on human input of data—it scans your system and reports the data without human error. Statistically, the Steam Hardware Survey is very, very strong evidence.
[quote name='TrekCZ' post='603988' date='Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM']Yes but most of people according to that survey are using not only archaic operating system, but also archaic and weak hardware.
Of the 52% of people using Windows XP, there will be people with low end systems, and people with high end systems—and the same is true of people with Vista—there will be people with high-end Vista systems and people with low end Vista systems. Perhaps Valve provides this more detailed information to other companies for a fee.
In any case, it is nVidia itself that defines the hardware requirements of 3D Vision:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Requirements.html
* Intel® Core™2 Duo or AMD Athlon™ X2 CPU or higher
* 1GB of system memory. (2GB is recommended)
* 100 MB free disk space
* GeForce 8800 GT
Now, is it reasonable to think that a fair number of those 52% of XP gamers meet this nVidia-defined minimum hardware requirement? I would think so. There is obviously more to nVidia’s decision to lock out XP than meets the eye—and we just don’t know what those reasons were for sure--only nVidia knows.
In my opinion, even if Windows 7 is adopted at a furious rate and people build/buy new systems to run it on, there was a missed opportunity to make 3D Vision available to XP users at launch. To many gamers, I fear that 3D Vision is old news…just a personal fear though, hopefully not a reality.
zaz123
Just install Windows 7. Nvidia has been sidestepping XP because they KNOW the big M is gonna release Windows 7 and just biding their time. Gamers will end up upgrading to Windows 7 because its a whole lot faster and far more stable than XP.
I have a W7 x64 / XP x86 dual boot. And I haven't booted to the XP partition in a long long loooonnnggg time.
Just install Windows 7. Nvidia has been sidestepping XP because they KNOW the big M is gonna release Windows 7 and just biding their time. Gamers will end up upgrading to Windows 7 because its a whole lot faster and far more stable than XP.
I have a W7 x64 / XP x86 dual boot. And I haven't booted to the XP partition in a long long loooonnnggg time.
check my blog - cybereality.com
Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does [b]not[/b] mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole (I personally hate steam, I only have it for the Valve games that I haven't played in a number of years, games with almost no 3D Vision appeal). Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous
Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does not mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole (I personally hate steam, I only have it for the Valve games that I haven't played in a number of years, games with almost no 3D Vision appeal). Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous
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u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
lol
u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
lol
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does [b]not[/b] mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole
Amorphous[/quote]
With every survey, there will be outliers, and with 3D Vision, nVidia obviously aimed at those to the right of the curve. I never said that the survey was perfect, only that it was a very strong metric—one that most developers should heed if they wish to move inventory in their target market. Yes, the unclean masses are playing CS 1.6 on outdated systems :) . The laws may be different at the very high end where 3D Vision resides...I guess we will find out.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous[/quote]
This reasoning is seemingly sound. However, let’s ignore the raw overall OS percentages—lets look at the numbers attached to the nVidia-defined hardware GPU requirements (ignoring the rest of the numbers not compatible with 3D Vision—sweeping the CS 1.6-type systems under the rug); we may see some interesting information. (Note that in the “Vista with DX10 GPU†summaries, Valve combines the Vista data with Windows 7 data. Also note that 0.15% of users run Win2000, which is statistically insignificant—assuming they even have an 8800 or above GPU—so don’t bother trying to argue that it skews the XP data :) ):
* 3D Vision “Low-endâ€: 14.37% have an 8800-series GPU, but only 5.11% of users have an 8800-level GPU combined with Vista/Win7--so 9.26% of 8800-series GPUs are essentially run under XP (a 1.81x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “Midrangeâ€: 4.18% have a GTX 260, and 1.9% of those users have a GTX 260 combined with Vista/7—so 2.28% of GTX 260 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.2x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “High Endâ€: 1.26% of users have the GTX 285, but only 0.65% are using a GTX 285 with Vista/7--so 0.61% of GTX 285 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.06x majority in favor of Vista/7—about an equal split between XP and Vista/Win7 users, even at the “high endâ€).
So, based on nVidia’s own hardware requirements, the machines are there to run 3D Vision on XP—and remember that these numbers are from today—3D Vision was released almost a year ago. Again, nobody here knows how much money it would have cost to implement XP support, but I fear it is a moot point—the real opportunity was a year ago. Bad decision? Good decision? Who knows?
[quote]Quoted from ragefactory:
actually nvidia dont work to fix win7/vista stereoscopic drivers. (all user have serious flickering problems/ghosting etcc..)
u think they will have time to make drivers for XP too?
lol[/quote]
You have my sympathy, and sincere hope that those problems get resolved—truly. I have tried 3D Vision a number of times, and I want it to succeed.
zaz123
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Just because a very slim majority of users that took steam's survey were still using XP does not mean that the majority of gamers use XP. The majority of CS 1.6 gamers probably use Windows XP. The steam survey doesn't fully represent PC gamers as a whole
Amorphous
With every survey, there will be outliers, and with 3D Vision, nVidia obviously aimed at those to the right of the curve. I never said that the survey was perfect, only that it was a very strong metric—one that most developers should heed if they wish to move inventory in their target market. Yes, the unclean masses are playing CS 1.6 on outdated systems :) . The laws may be different at the very high end where 3D Vision resides...I guess we will find out.
[quote name='Amorphous' post='604205' date='Oct 23 2009, 02:46 AM']Due to the cost, 3D Vision is mostly an enthusiast's product. The majority of your gaming enthusiasts are using Windows Vista (if not 7).
Amorphous
This reasoning is seemingly sound. However, let’s ignore the raw overall OS percentages—lets look at the numbers attached to the nVidia-defined hardware GPU requirements (ignoring the rest of the numbers not compatible with 3D Vision—sweeping the CS 1.6-type systems under the rug); we may see some interesting information. (Note that in the “Vista with DX10 GPU†summaries, Valve combines the Vista data with Windows 7 data. Also note that 0.15% of users run Win2000, which is statistically insignificant—assuming they even have an 8800 or above GPU—so don’t bother trying to argue that it skews the XP data :) ):
* 3D Vision “Low-endâ€: 14.37% have an 8800-series GPU, but only 5.11% of users have an 8800-level GPU combined with Vista/Win7--so 9.26% of 8800-series GPUs are essentially run under XP (a 1.81x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “Midrangeâ€: 4.18% have a GTX 260, and 1.9% of those users have a GTX 260 combined with Vista/7—so 2.28% of GTX 260 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.2x majority in favor of XP).
* 3D Vision “High Endâ€: 1.26% of users have the GTX 285, but only 0.65% are using a GTX 285 with Vista/7--so 0.61% of GTX 285 users are essentially running them under XP (a 1.06x majority in favor of Vista/7—about an equal split between XP and Vista/Win7 users, even at the “high endâ€).
So, based on nVidia’s own hardware requirements, the machines are there to run 3D Vision on XP—and remember that these numbers are from today—3D Vision was released almost a year ago. Again, nobody here knows how much money it would have cost to implement XP support, but I fear it is a moot point—the real opportunity was a year ago. Bad decision? Good decision? Who knows?
You have my sympathy, and sincere hope that those problems get resolved—truly. I have tried 3D Vision a number of times, and I want it to succeed.
zaz123
One shop in my country stocked 54 3d bundles (Samsung 2233RZ) and they have special price for it.
One shop in my country stocked 54 3d bundles (Samsung 2233RZ) and they have special price for it.