Hey nobsi/roller. I only know of 1080 checkerboard as a dlp user.(dlp fan)
Is the viewing distance just a factor for dlp users or just more so for dlp users. Meaning can lcd/plasma users sit at any distance without checkerboard being a factor?
Hey nobsi/roller. I only know of 1080 checkerboard as a dlp user.(dlp fan)
Is the viewing distance just a factor for dlp users or just more so for dlp users. Meaning can lcd/plasma users sit at any distance without checkerboard being a factor?
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Nobsi, you coudn't have said any better. Congrats on the very techincal explanation, I definatelly coudn't explain how CB works, it's really hard to explain and reading your post just confirms that, very interesting though.
BTW, what is this screen door effect you guys were talking about, can someone explains this to me or maybe show me some picture??? I have no clue whow this door screen effect looks like???
Nobsi, you coudn't have said any better. Congrats on the very techincal explanation, I definatelly coudn't explain how CB works, it's really hard to explain and reading your post just confirms that, very interesting though.
BTW, what is this screen door effect you guys were talking about, can someone explains this to me or maybe show me some picture??? I have no clue whow this door screen effect looks like???
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It may only be a dlp issue or early dlp issue. I am trying to find out. I only know of it from a generation 1:3d mitsubishi dlp display. I believe it doesnt effect lcd,plasma however uncertain.
Its when you sit close to a checkerboard display.(at least the early dlp models) It causes viewing issue.
It may only be a dlp issue or early dlp issue. I am trying to find out. I only know of it from a generation 1:3d mitsubishi dlp display. I believe it doesnt effect lcd,plasma however uncertain.
Its when you sit close to a checkerboard display.(at least the early dlp models) It causes viewing issue.
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I started this post to point out facts that MANY people don't know about the rollermod and all I got were a ton of people disagreeing with me. What I said were facts . Nothing thats been said changes that. Yet I get 16 dumb replies arguing or ignoring the facts.
This warning needs to be made people don't know that you cant play in 1280x720 with the roller mod without it windowed. And there are tons of people out there that think they are getting full HD in 3d from this mod. Obviously, look through this post.....and lots and lots of other posts on here. Just do a google search on the rollermod and it talks about 1920x1080 resolution at 60hz in 3D in multiple threads on many sites.
The rollermod is widely thought of by people looking into it as something other than what they are expecting. I don't mean to speak ill of your precious internet forum king. I just felt the need to state the facts and warn people about things they might not be expecting.
You guys really are immature when it comes to accepting the truth. Have fun playing fun with the missing pixels and blurriness that you finally admitted to 16 posts later. Use your brain. It helps when thinking about things and discussing things. My job is done here. /w00twave.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00twave:' />
I started this post to point out facts that MANY people don't know about the rollermod and all I got were a ton of people disagreeing with me. What I said were facts . Nothing thats been said changes that. Yet I get 16 dumb replies arguing or ignoring the facts.
This warning needs to be made people don't know that you cant play in 1280x720 with the roller mod without it windowed. And there are tons of people out there that think they are getting full HD in 3d from this mod. Obviously, look through this post.....and lots and lots of other posts on here. Just do a google search on the rollermod and it talks about 1920x1080 resolution at 60hz in 3D in multiple threads on many sites.
The rollermod is widely thought of by people looking into it as something other than what they are expecting. I don't mean to speak ill of your precious internet forum king. I just felt the need to state the facts and warn people about things they might not be expecting.
You guys really are immature when it comes to accepting the truth. Have fun playing fun with the missing pixels and blurriness that you finally admitted to 16 posts later. Use your brain. It helps when thinking about things and discussing things. My job is done here. /w00twave.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':w00twave:' />
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
[quote name='Grestorn' date='25 January 2012 - 09:14 AM' timestamp='1327475685' post='1360262']
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
[/quote]
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
And the scaling factor is unfortunatelly not 2 but 1920/1280 = 1080/720 = 1.5, which will produce a blurred picture.
For a 1080p checkerboard signal no scaling is involved, not at the graphic driver side nor at the display side. Though the driver has to combine two views into one frame and the HDTV has to reconstruct the missing pixels, it's all 1:1 pixel mapping. This is the fundamental advantage of checkerboard (and by the way also for SBS and line interleaved formats).
[quote name='Grestorn' date='25 January 2012 - 09:14 AM' timestamp='1327475685' post='1360262']
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
And the scaling factor is unfortunatelly not 2 but 1920/1280 = 1080/720 = 1.5, which will produce a blurred picture.
For a 1080p checkerboard signal no scaling is involved, not at the graphic driver side nor at the display side. Though the driver has to combine two views into one frame and the HDTV has to reconstruct the missing pixels, it's all 1:1 pixel mapping. This is the fundamental advantage of checkerboard (and by the way also for SBS and line interleaved formats).
[quote name='Nobsi' date='25 January 2012 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1327480184' post='1360289']
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.[/quote]
No, YOU read what I wrote please.
There is a BIG difference between just upscaling a 720p image to 1080p on one hand, and, on the other hand, cutting the resolution of an image rendered by the game in 1080p in half and then upscaling it again to 1080p.
If the game renders the scene in 720p, all the mip map levels are chosen accordingly. The HUD and the writing is scaled correctly, and the game 'knows' exactly which pixel the user is going to see.
If it renders in 1080p, but then you throw half the pixels away (and that's what's happening), afterwards interpolating the missing pixels again, you will end up in a blurred image, especially visible in the HUD and with all kinds of writing. You really should be able to see that quite clearly.
[quote name='Nobsi' date='25 January 2012 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1327480184' post='1360289']
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
No, YOU read what I wrote please.
There is a BIG difference between just upscaling a 720p image to 1080p on one hand, and, on the other hand, cutting the resolution of an image rendered by the game in 1080p in half and then upscaling it again to 1080p.
If the game renders the scene in 720p, all the mip map levels are chosen accordingly. The HUD and the writing is scaled correctly, and the game 'knows' exactly which pixel the user is going to see.
If it renders in 1080p, but then you throw half the pixels away (and that's what's happening), afterwards interpolating the missing pixels again, you will end up in a blurred image, especially visible in the HUD and with all kinds of writing. You really should be able to see that quite clearly.
Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?
His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?
His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
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[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']
Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?[/QUOTE]He was very aggressive, for sure, but on the other hand, he was just writing about his experience and noone seemed to believe him, including roller in their previous, private discussion. So I can understand him quite well.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?[/quote]I don't know about this mod's capabilities to show 1080p frame sequential in 30 fps, but if it can do that, and the monitor/TV can display that correctly, it is most certainly a very useful improvement. But, HIS display doesn't seem to be capable of using this mode, so he can only use 1080p/60Hz with checkerboard, which, in my view, is clearly inferior to 720p framepacked.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
[/quote]
The alignment thing, that's coming up, is about scaling being very easy because you have an integer (non fractional) multiplier (2x in this case) which allows for practically perfect scaling.
If the game would actually render 960x1080, I would agree. But it isn't. It's rendering TWO images in 1920x1080, one for the left and one for the right eye. Then the driver has to combine these two images into ONE frame, using alternating pixels from the first and the second image. Thereby throwing away half of the rendered pixels.
Then the endresult is upscaled with a integer factor of 2 for each eye. The upscaling process is loss free, granted, but it can't reconstruct the pixels you lost in the previous step.
With 720p rendering, you don't throw away any pixels. If the game renders a pixel fine line (which is quite common for HUDs and writing), each pixel of that line will be displayed no matter what. If the game renders in 1920x1080 pixels, and you throw half of them away, you'll lose some of those pixels, you lose information. And that's much worse than having a fractional upscaling from 720p to 1080p.
Granted, because of the checkerboard pixel alignment, you won't see any vertical line disappearing completely (because in every other scanline a different pixel column is thrown away), that helps a bit, but it doesn't change the effect of HUD elements and writing to blur.
/edit: By the way, using Downsampling Anti Aliasing, which has been suggested as a viable AA alternative recently, is actually the same thing, if the downsampling is done properly (by building the average of two pixels to create the downsampled pixel). But you also have the same problem there with blurred HUD elements, at least with some games.
Some games are upscaling the HUD and all texts, so that it appears in the same size no matter the resolution, and those games are not affected much. For them I'd agree that 1080p CB might give better results than 720p FP. But all those games who render HUD elements and texts the same for all resolutions (i.e. the writing becomes smaller as you increase the resolution), 720p is most definitely the better way to go.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']
Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?[/QUOTE]He was very aggressive, for sure, but on the other hand, he was just writing about his experience and noone seemed to believe him, including roller in their previous, private discussion. So I can understand him quite well.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?I don't know about this mod's capabilities to show 1080p frame sequential in 30 fps, but if it can do that, and the monitor/TV can display that correctly, it is most certainly a very useful improvement. But, HIS display doesn't seem to be capable of using this mode, so he can only use 1080p/60Hz with checkerboard, which, in my view, is clearly inferior to 720p framepacked.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
The alignment thing, that's coming up, is about scaling being very easy because you have an integer (non fractional) multiplier (2x in this case) which allows for practically perfect scaling.
If the game would actually render 960x1080, I would agree. But it isn't. It's rendering TWO images in 1920x1080, one for the left and one for the right eye. Then the driver has to combine these two images into ONE frame, using alternating pixels from the first and the second image. Thereby throwing away half of the rendered pixels.
Then the endresult is upscaled with a integer factor of 2 for each eye. The upscaling process is loss free, granted, but it can't reconstruct the pixels you lost in the previous step.
With 720p rendering, you don't throw away any pixels. If the game renders a pixel fine line (which is quite common for HUDs and writing), each pixel of that line will be displayed no matter what. If the game renders in 1920x1080 pixels, and you throw half of them away, you'll lose some of those pixels, you lose information. And that's much worse than having a fractional upscaling from 720p to 1080p.
Granted, because of the checkerboard pixel alignment, you won't see any vertical line disappearing completely (because in every other scanline a different pixel column is thrown away), that helps a bit, but it doesn't change the effect of HUD elements and writing to blur.
/edit: By the way, using Downsampling Anti Aliasing, which has been suggested as a viable AA alternative recently, is actually the same thing, if the downsampling is done properly (by building the average of two pixels to create the downsampled pixel). But you also have the same problem there with blurred HUD elements, at least with some games.
Some games are upscaling the HUD and all texts, so that it appears in the same size no matter the resolution, and those games are not affected much. For them I'd agree that 1080p CB might give better results than 720p FP. But all those games who render HUD elements and texts the same for all resolutions (i.e. the writing becomes smaller as you increase the resolution), 720p is most definitely the better way to go.
Have you ever actually tried out Rollermod or used Checkerboard mode using a Samsung Plasma or LED TV??? If the answer is no, please don't keep saying it's blurred. I've played many games and hours of gameplay in this mode and I own a C7000 Samsung Plasma that supports CB and FS modes. Off course CB 3D quality isn't as good as Generic CRT mode which is full resolution per eye, but there's no blurred image at all.
I want people that really have tried this mod for real to actually comment in this thread about his experience using CB or Generic CRT mode, not the ones that just keep writing technical stuff that they read on the web based on what they think CB will look like, not how it actually looks like. Nobsi, me, Roller a few other users from this forum have actually tried and are used to play games in CB mode using a Samsung TV. We're used to play games in CB while many others just try to imagine how it will look like based on what they think. Let's not assume things, let's experiment, let's try it out 1st before saying it's blurred image based on the explanation about pixels, mapping and half resolution per eye. If your TV don't support this mode, I'm sorry you can't say it's blurred, you haven't seem it. Do not assume things.
If you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, that's because you never tried this mod and therefore you can't say things like 720p Frame packing is superior to 1080p Checkerboard based on what you think???? It's not even close, I've tried 720p frame packing and also 1080p checkerboard, and everyone that I know from this forum that have also tried CB, all think that 1080p CB looks way better cause it's native resolution. Everyone of us that have ACTUALLY tried out Rollermod agree that native resolution is way more important than full resolution vs half resolution deal. The blurred image effect is what you get with a low resolution like 720p in a big display playing games in 3D, not the other way around.
It's funny that all users I've seen in this forum that say otherwise have never have actually tried CB or seen it with their own eyes. People that are doomed to play frame packing mode cause their TV don't support CB, they keep saying that 720p FP is superior to 1080p CB just based on technical stuff, not their experience using it.
How are you going to get any credibility about your thoughts if you never tried this out and keep assuming it's blurred image. It ain't!!!!!
Now when I play in 720p FP, I see horrible edges and blurred image cause of the low resolution in a big screen like 50 or 63", not when using CB 1080p. And believe me the difference between 1080p Frame Sequential (Generic CRT mode) vs 1080p Checkerboard is much less visible to your eyes compared to the quality difference between 720p Frame Packing vs 1080p Checkerboard. Native Resolution matters more than this deal about half vs full resolution per eye.
Why would all of us that have played CB and own a Samsung TV keep lying??? And why all of you that have never tried CB with a Samsung Plasma/LED TV know this better than us???? Are we trying to trick people, is Roller a priest or a fanatic and all of us have been brain washed by his thoughts, are we all puppets??? Come on...
You say that you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, so this is proof that you never have actually tried Rollermod, cause this mod enables CB and also Generic CRT mode.
Also, the guy that started this thread and keep saying BS about Checkerboard quality, doesn't even know what is Generic CRT mode, so he wasn't even able to make Rollermod work and are assuming things, as Roller mentioned he coudn't even pass the Wizard Setup and so, he wasn't able to actually try out CB for real.
All Samsung 2010 TVs that support CB and few early 2011 TVs, they also support frame sequential mode (Generic CRT mode). So, it's most likely that you and the user that started this thread haven't really had enough time to experiment and play games in CB mode.
This is an old discussion and won't take anywhere. Just a thought for whoever read these posts, give credibility to the ones that own a 2010 or 2011 Samsung TV that benefit from CB or FS modes and that have actually tried out Rollermod for good, not the ones that keep saying what they think it will look like without any field experience.
Have you ever actually tried out Rollermod or used Checkerboard mode using a Samsung Plasma or LED TV??? If the answer is no, please don't keep saying it's blurred. I've played many games and hours of gameplay in this mode and I own a C7000 Samsung Plasma that supports CB and FS modes. Off course CB 3D quality isn't as good as Generic CRT mode which is full resolution per eye, but there's no blurred image at all.
I want people that really have tried this mod for real to actually comment in this thread about his experience using CB or Generic CRT mode, not the ones that just keep writing technical stuff that they read on the web based on what they think CB will look like, not how it actually looks like. Nobsi, me, Roller a few other users from this forum have actually tried and are used to play games in CB mode using a Samsung TV. We're used to play games in CB while many others just try to imagine how it will look like based on what they think. Let's not assume things, let's experiment, let's try it out 1st before saying it's blurred image based on the explanation about pixels, mapping and half resolution per eye. If your TV don't support this mode, I'm sorry you can't say it's blurred, you haven't seem it. Do not assume things.
If you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, that's because you never tried this mod and therefore you can't say things like 720p Frame packing is superior to 1080p Checkerboard based on what you think???? It's not even close, I've tried 720p frame packing and also 1080p checkerboard, and everyone that I know from this forum that have also tried CB, all think that 1080p CB looks way better cause it's native resolution. Everyone of us that have ACTUALLY tried out Rollermod agree that native resolution is way more important than full resolution vs half resolution deal. The blurred image effect is what you get with a low resolution like 720p in a big display playing games in 3D, not the other way around.
It's funny that all users I've seen in this forum that say otherwise have never have actually tried CB or seen it with their own eyes. People that are doomed to play frame packing mode cause their TV don't support CB, they keep saying that 720p FP is superior to 1080p CB just based on technical stuff, not their experience using it.
How are you going to get any credibility about your thoughts if you never tried this out and keep assuming it's blurred image. It ain't!!!!!
Now when I play in 720p FP, I see horrible edges and blurred image cause of the low resolution in a big screen like 50 or 63", not when using CB 1080p. And believe me the difference between 1080p Frame Sequential (Generic CRT mode) vs 1080p Checkerboard is much less visible to your eyes compared to the quality difference between 720p Frame Packing vs 1080p Checkerboard. Native Resolution matters more than this deal about half vs full resolution per eye.
Why would all of us that have played CB and own a Samsung TV keep lying??? And why all of you that have never tried CB with a Samsung Plasma/LED TV know this better than us???? Are we trying to trick people, is Roller a priest or a fanatic and all of us have been brain washed by his thoughts, are we all puppets??? Come on...
You say that you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, so this is proof that you never have actually tried Rollermod, cause this mod enables CB and also Generic CRT mode.
Also, the guy that started this thread and keep saying BS about Checkerboard quality, doesn't even know what is Generic CRT mode, so he wasn't even able to make Rollermod work and are assuming things, as Roller mentioned he coudn't even pass the Wizard Setup and so, he wasn't able to actually try out CB for real.
All Samsung 2010 TVs that support CB and few early 2011 TVs, they also support frame sequential mode (Generic CRT mode). So, it's most likely that you and the user that started this thread haven't really had enough time to experiment and play games in CB mode.
This is an old discussion and won't take anywhere. Just a thought for whoever read these posts, give credibility to the ones that own a 2010 or 2011 Samsung TV that benefit from CB or FS modes and that have actually tried out Rollermod for good, not the ones that keep saying what they think it will look like without any field experience.
I think you got my point.
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Even though I have a display that would be able to display 1080p CB, I don't want to be bothered with the cabling just to (dis)prove a point.
There ARE some technical facts that just can't be put aside. And I just stated them.
What I *can* do, however, and what I used to do, is to set a game to render in double the resolution my monitor is capable of (i.e. 1920x2160 or 3840x1080) and then have it downscale the image. That is no different to what you're doing.
And I know that there are some games where this works fine, while others look horrible. There is even a prolonged discussion about that effect in 3DCenter.de
Please understand while you might be perfectly right in your assessment that this solution works well with your display and the games you're playing, the OP of this thread can also be absolutely in his right to say that with HIS games on HIS display, it doesn't work to his satisfaction. I don't agree with the way he worded his disappointment, because he, too, neglected that there might be other situations than his. But I don't agree with your replies either. You make him look like an idiot, and I just don't think that his findings are so wrong after all.
This talk about "native resolution", however, is pure bull****, because it is not a native resolution. It's exactly HALF the native resolution, which is certainly still much better than 720p, as I've explained. But it's NOT the native resolution. But that's not the issue, the problem lies with the previous DOWNSCALING of the original 1080p image, not with the later UPSCALING. The upscaling is lossless, I agree with that. The downscaling certainly isn't.
If you want to see the effect I'm talking about, please use a game which uses a non-scaled HUD (I think SW:TOR might be a good example) and check if you have problems reading the text, especially with a very small font. Compare the result to a native, non 3D 1080p image, and you'll see the difference right away.
In 720p, the HUD would be shown quite larger but also to be much clearer and non-blurred.
Even though I have a display that would be able to display 1080p CB, I don't want to be bothered with the cabling just to (dis)prove a point.
There ARE some technical facts that just can't be put aside. And I just stated them.
What I *can* do, however, and what I used to do, is to set a game to render in double the resolution my monitor is capable of (i.e. 1920x2160 or 3840x1080) and then have it downscale the image. That is no different to what you're doing.
And I know that there are some games where this works fine, while others look horrible. There is even a prolonged discussion about that effect in 3DCenter.de
Please understand while you might be perfectly right in your assessment that this solution works well with your display and the games you're playing, the OP of this thread can also be absolutely in his right to say that with HIS games on HIS display, it doesn't work to his satisfaction. I don't agree with the way he worded his disappointment, because he, too, neglected that there might be other situations than his. But I don't agree with your replies either. You make him look like an idiot, and I just don't think that his findings are so wrong after all.
This talk about "native resolution", however, is pure bull****, because it is not a native resolution. It's exactly HALF the native resolution, which is certainly still much better than 720p, as I've explained. But it's NOT the native resolution. But that's not the issue, the problem lies with the previous DOWNSCALING of the original 1080p image, not with the later UPSCALING. The upscaling is lossless, I agree with that. The downscaling certainly isn't.
If you want to see the effect I'm talking about, please use a game which uses a non-scaled HUD (I think SW:TOR might be a good example) and check if you have problems reading the text, especially with a very small font. Compare the result to a native, non 3D 1080p image, and you'll see the difference right away.
In 720p, the HUD would be shown quite larger but also to be much clearer and non-blurred.
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
[quote name='simongski' date='25 January 2012 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1327500221' post='1360402']
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
[/quote]
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
It's not about efficiency, however. It's about how you transfer the image over a transport layer that only supports half the required bandwith. I have been corrected that the HDMI 1.4 spec does actually allow to increase the bandwith, however, this is not supported by any of the current display devices.
So you either have to reduce the number of images transported per second (i.e. 24p) or you have to reduce the resolution (720p or 1080CB). There is just no other way.
The effort to render the image is not affected, unless you reduce the rendering resolution to 720p. It's still the same, no matter whether you use 1080p over Dual-DVI, 1080@24fps or 1080 CB@60fps.
[quote name='simongski' date='25 January 2012 - 03:03 PM' timestamp='1327500221' post='1360402']
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
It's not about efficiency, however. It's about how you transfer the image over a transport layer that only supports half the required bandwith. I have been corrected that the HDMI 1.4 spec does actually allow to increase the bandwith, however, this is not supported by any of the current display devices.
So you either have to reduce the number of images transported per second (i.e. 24p) or you have to reduce the resolution (720p or 1080CB). There is just no other way.
The effort to render the image is not affected, unless you reduce the rendering resolution to 720p. It's still the same, no matter whether you use 1080p over Dual-DVI, 1080@24fps or 1080 CB@60fps.
[quote name='Grestorn' date='25 January 2012 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1327501514' post='1360411']
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
[/quote]
I have done a lot of 3d programming. You can easily adjust the aspect ratio so that it does not look stretched when the display stretches the image. That's a fact. Anyone who has done any programing related to 3d or 2d for that matter will tell you that.
[quote name='Grestorn' date='25 January 2012 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1327501514' post='1360411']
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
I have done a lot of 3d programming. You can easily adjust the aspect ratio so that it does not look stretched when the display stretches the image. That's a fact. Anyone who has done any programing related to 3d or 2d for that matter will tell you that.
So you're saying that when I use checkerboard by PC is actually rendering 1080p at 120 frames per second, and discarding half of each frame in order to be able combine frames to make 1080p at 60fps?
So you're saying that when I use checkerboard by PC is actually rendering 1080p at 120 frames per second, and discarding half of each frame in order to be able combine frames to make 1080p at 60fps?
Is the viewing distance just a factor for dlp users or just more so for dlp users. Meaning can lcd/plasma users sit at any distance without checkerboard being a factor?
Is the viewing distance just a factor for dlp users or just more so for dlp users. Meaning can lcd/plasma users sit at any distance without checkerboard being a factor?
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BTW, what is this screen door effect you guys were talking about, can someone explains this to me or maybe show me some picture??? I have no clue whow this door screen effect looks like???
BTW, what is this screen door effect you guys were talking about, can someone explains this to me or maybe show me some picture??? I have no clue whow this door screen effect looks like???
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It may only be a dlp issue or early dlp issue. I am trying to find out. I only know of it from a generation 1:3d mitsubishi dlp display. I believe it doesnt effect lcd,plasma however uncertain.
Its when you sit close to a checkerboard display.(at least the early dlp models) It causes viewing issue.
It may only be a dlp issue or early dlp issue. I am trying to find out. I only know of it from a generation 1:3d mitsubishi dlp display. I believe it doesnt effect lcd,plasma however uncertain.
Its when you sit close to a checkerboard display.(at least the early dlp models) It causes viewing issue.
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This warning needs to be made people don't know that you cant play in 1280x720 with the roller mod without it windowed. And there are tons of people out there that think they are getting full HD in 3d from this mod. Obviously, look through this post.....and lots and lots of other posts on here. Just do a google search on the rollermod and it talks about 1920x1080 resolution at 60hz in 3D in multiple threads on many sites.
The rollermod is widely thought of by people looking into it as something other than what they are expecting. I don't mean to speak ill of your precious internet forum king. I just felt the need to state the facts and warn people about things they might not be expecting.
You guys really are immature when it comes to accepting the truth. Have fun playing fun with the missing pixels and blurriness that you finally admitted to 16 posts later. Use your brain. It helps when thinking about things and discussing things. My job is done here.
This warning needs to be made people don't know that you cant play in 1280x720 with the roller mod without it windowed. And there are tons of people out there that think they are getting full HD in 3d from this mod. Obviously, look through this post.....and lots and lots of other posts on here. Just do a google search on the rollermod and it talks about 1920x1080 resolution at 60hz in 3D in multiple threads on many sites.
The rollermod is widely thought of by people looking into it as something other than what they are expecting. I don't mean to speak ill of your precious internet forum king. I just felt the need to state the facts and warn people about things they might not be expecting.
You guys really are immature when it comes to accepting the truth. Have fun playing fun with the missing pixels and blurriness that you finally admitted to 16 posts later. Use your brain. It helps when thinking about things and discussing things. My job is done here.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
[/quote]
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
And the scaling factor is unfortunatelly not 2 but 1920/1280 = 1080/720 = 1.5, which will produce a blurred picture.
For a 1080p checkerboard signal no scaling is involved, not at the graphic driver side nor at the display side. Though the driver has to combine two views into one frame and the HDTV has to reconstruct the missing pixels, it's all 1:1 pixel mapping. This is the fundamental advantage of checkerboard (and by the way also for SBS and line interleaved formats).
As a matter of fact, dzlvs is correct in saying that it's incorrect to claim that 1920x1080 in Checkerboard is native resolution. It is most certainly not.
The image transferred to the monitor/TV is native resolution, for sure, but the monitor doesn't display it that way. It only displays half of the pixels transferred (for each eye), and it has to interpolate the other half of the pixels to display the correct image size.
Additionally, since the game is actually rendering a 1080p image (two images, as a matter of fact), this has to be downscaled to 960x1080 before transmitting it to the monitor. On the monitor it's then upscaled again. This process reduces the crispiness of the image. Much more so than just upscaling an 720p image (that has been rendered in that resolution in the first place) to a 1080 pixel matrix.
So he is absolutely correct in saying that you get a blurred image. That's what's happening when you interpolate an image that has been downscaled previously.
I can understand him, that he might prefer 720p over interpolated 1080p. That's his prerogative, and there's just no need to slam him for that.
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
And the scaling factor is unfortunatelly not 2 but 1920/1280 = 1080/720 = 1.5, which will produce a blurred picture.
For a 1080p checkerboard signal no scaling is involved, not at the graphic driver side nor at the display side. Though the driver has to combine two views into one frame and the HDTV has to reconstruct the missing pixels, it's all 1:1 pixel mapping. This is the fundamental advantage of checkerboard (and by the way also for SBS and line interleaved formats).
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.[/quote]
No, YOU read what I wrote please.
There is a BIG difference between just upscaling a 720p image to 1080p on one hand, and, on the other hand, cutting the resolution of an image rendered by the game in 1080p in half and then upscaling it again to 1080p.
If the game renders the scene in 720p, all the mip map levels are chosen accordingly. The HUD and the writing is scaled correctly, and the game 'knows' exactly which pixel the user is going to see.
If it renders in 1080p, but then you throw half the pixels away (and that's what's happening), afterwards interpolating the missing pixels again, you will end up in a blurred image, especially visible in the HUD and with all kinds of writing. You really should be able to see that quite clearly.
Please read my previous post. Only the 720p signal has to be upscaled to be displayed on a 1920x1020 panel.
No, YOU read what I wrote please.
There is a BIG difference between just upscaling a 720p image to 1080p on one hand, and, on the other hand, cutting the resolution of an image rendered by the game in 1080p in half and then upscaling it again to 1080p.
If the game renders the scene in 720p, all the mip map levels are chosen accordingly. The HUD and the writing is scaled correctly, and the game 'knows' exactly which pixel the user is going to see.
If it renders in 1080p, but then you throw half the pixels away (and that's what's happening), afterwards interpolating the missing pixels again, you will end up in a blurred image, especially visible in the HUD and with all kinds of writing. You really should be able to see that quite clearly.
His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
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Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?[/QUOTE]He was very aggressive, for sure, but on the other hand, he was just writing about his experience and noone seemed to believe him, including roller in their previous, private discussion. So I can understand him quite well.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?[/quote]I don't know about this mod's capabilities to show 1080p frame sequential in 30 fps, but if it can do that, and the monitor/TV can display that correctly, it is most certainly a very useful improvement. But, HIS display doesn't seem to be capable of using this mode, so he can only use 1080p/60Hz with checkerboard, which, in my view, is clearly inferior to 720p framepacked.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
[/quote]
The alignment thing, that's coming up, is about scaling being very easy because you have an integer (non fractional) multiplier (2x in this case) which allows for practically perfect scaling.
If the game would actually render 960x1080, I would agree. But it isn't. It's rendering TWO images in 1920x1080, one for the left and one for the right eye. Then the driver has to combine these two images into ONE frame, using alternating pixels from the first and the second image. Thereby throwing away half of the rendered pixels.
Then the endresult is upscaled with a integer factor of 2 for each eye. The upscaling process is loss free, granted, but it can't reconstruct the pixels you lost in the previous step.
With 720p rendering, you don't throw away any pixels. If the game renders a pixel fine line (which is quite common for HUDs and writing), each pixel of that line will be displayed no matter what. If the game renders in 1920x1080 pixels, and you throw half of them away, you'll lose some of those pixels, you lose information. And that's much worse than having a fractional upscaling from 720p to 1080p.
Granted, because of the checkerboard pixel alignment, you won't see any vertical line disappearing completely (because in every other scanline a different pixel column is thrown away), that helps a bit, but it doesn't change the effect of HUD elements and writing to blur.
/edit: By the way, using Downsampling Anti Aliasing, which has been suggested as a viable AA alternative recently, is actually the same thing, if the downsampling is done properly (by building the average of two pixels to create the downsampled pixel). But you also have the same problem there with blurred HUD elements, at least with some games.
Some games are upscaling the HUD and all texts, so that it appears in the same size no matter the resolution, and those games are not affected much. For them I'd agree that 1080p CB might give better results than 720p FP. But all those games who render HUD elements and texts the same for all resolutions (i.e. the writing becomes smaller as you increase the resolution), 720p is most definitely the better way to go.
Maybe OP alienated himself partly just by the way he said what he said?[/QUOTE]He was very aggressive, for sure, but on the other hand, he was just writing about his experience and noone seemed to believe him, including roller in their previous, private discussion. So I can understand him quite well.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']His reaction to my 30Hz comment seemed over the top, as this is still the case in frame sequential mode isn't it? You get all the pixels (1920x1080), uncompressed at 60hz, which = 30fps per eye rather than 24hz?I don't know about this mod's capabilities to show 1080p frame sequential in 30 fps, but if it can do that, and the monitor/TV can display that correctly, it is most certainly a very useful improvement. But, HIS display doesn't seem to be capable of using this mode, so he can only use 1080p/60Hz with checkerboard, which, in my view, is clearly inferior to 720p framepacked.
[quote name='rustyk' date='25 January 2012 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1327482693' post='1360296']I don't want to add fuel to the fire, especially as I'm sure there are more knowledgeable people around, but I thought checkerboard was interleaved, rather than scaled down then up again each frame. I'm certainly aware that information is discarded and the TV still interpolates the missing detail, but I thought the way the checkeboard is aligned means that you get better 1:1 pixel mapping and therefore an improved image on displays that support it?
The alignment thing, that's coming up, is about scaling being very easy because you have an integer (non fractional) multiplier (2x in this case) which allows for practically perfect scaling.
If the game would actually render 960x1080, I would agree. But it isn't. It's rendering TWO images in 1920x1080, one for the left and one for the right eye. Then the driver has to combine these two images into ONE frame, using alternating pixels from the first and the second image. Thereby throwing away half of the rendered pixels.
Then the endresult is upscaled with a integer factor of 2 for each eye. The upscaling process is loss free, granted, but it can't reconstruct the pixels you lost in the previous step.
With 720p rendering, you don't throw away any pixels. If the game renders a pixel fine line (which is quite common for HUDs and writing), each pixel of that line will be displayed no matter what. If the game renders in 1920x1080 pixels, and you throw half of them away, you'll lose some of those pixels, you lose information. And that's much worse than having a fractional upscaling from 720p to 1080p.
Granted, because of the checkerboard pixel alignment, you won't see any vertical line disappearing completely (because in every other scanline a different pixel column is thrown away), that helps a bit, but it doesn't change the effect of HUD elements and writing to blur.
/edit: By the way, using Downsampling Anti Aliasing, which has been suggested as a viable AA alternative recently, is actually the same thing, if the downsampling is done properly (by building the average of two pixels to create the downsampled pixel). But you also have the same problem there with blurred HUD elements, at least with some games.
Some games are upscaling the HUD and all texts, so that it appears in the same size no matter the resolution, and those games are not affected much. For them I'd agree that 1080p CB might give better results than 720p FP. But all those games who render HUD elements and texts the same for all resolutions (i.e. the writing becomes smaller as you increase the resolution), 720p is most definitely the better way to go.
Have you ever actually tried out Rollermod or used Checkerboard mode using a Samsung Plasma or LED TV??? If the answer is no, please don't keep saying it's blurred. I've played many games and hours of gameplay in this mode and I own a C7000 Samsung Plasma that supports CB and FS modes. Off course CB 3D quality isn't as good as Generic CRT mode which is full resolution per eye, but there's no blurred image at all.
I want people that really have tried this mod for real to actually comment in this thread about his experience using CB or Generic CRT mode, not the ones that just keep writing technical stuff that they read on the web based on what they think CB will look like, not how it actually looks like. Nobsi, me, Roller a few other users from this forum have actually tried and are used to play games in CB mode using a Samsung TV. We're used to play games in CB while many others just try to imagine how it will look like based on what they think. Let's not assume things, let's experiment, let's try it out 1st before saying it's blurred image based on the explanation about pixels, mapping and half resolution per eye. If your TV don't support this mode, I'm sorry you can't say it's blurred, you haven't seem it. Do not assume things.
If you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, that's because you never tried this mod and therefore you can't say things like 720p Frame packing is superior to 1080p Checkerboard based on what you think???? It's not even close, I've tried 720p frame packing and also 1080p checkerboard, and everyone that I know from this forum that have also tried CB, all think that 1080p CB looks way better cause it's native resolution. Everyone of us that have ACTUALLY tried out Rollermod agree that native resolution is way more important than full resolution vs half resolution deal. The blurred image effect is what you get with a low resolution like 720p in a big display playing games in 3D, not the other way around.
It's funny that all users I've seen in this forum that say otherwise have never have actually tried CB or seen it with their own eyes. People that are doomed to play frame packing mode cause their TV don't support CB, they keep saying that 720p FP is superior to 1080p CB just based on technical stuff, not their experience using it.
How are you going to get any credibility about your thoughts if you never tried this out and keep assuming it's blurred image. It ain't!!!!!
Now when I play in 720p FP, I see horrible edges and blurred image cause of the low resolution in a big screen like 50 or 63", not when using CB 1080p. And believe me the difference between 1080p Frame Sequential (Generic CRT mode) vs 1080p Checkerboard is much less visible to your eyes compared to the quality difference between 720p Frame Packing vs 1080p Checkerboard. Native Resolution matters more than this deal about half vs full resolution per eye.
Why would all of us that have played CB and own a Samsung TV keep lying??? And why all of you that have never tried CB with a Samsung Plasma/LED TV know this better than us???? Are we trying to trick people, is Roller a priest or a fanatic and all of us have been brain washed by his thoughts, are we all puppets??? Come on...
You say that you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, so this is proof that you never have actually tried Rollermod, cause this mod enables CB and also Generic CRT mode.
Also, the guy that started this thread and keep saying BS about Checkerboard quality, doesn't even know what is Generic CRT mode, so he wasn't even able to make Rollermod work and are assuming things, as Roller mentioned he coudn't even pass the Wizard Setup and so, he wasn't able to actually try out CB for real.
All Samsung 2010 TVs that support CB and few early 2011 TVs, they also support frame sequential mode (Generic CRT mode). So, it's most likely that you and the user that started this thread haven't really had enough time to experiment and play games in CB mode.
This is an old discussion and won't take anywhere. Just a thought for whoever read these posts, give credibility to the ones that own a 2010 or 2011 Samsung TV that benefit from CB or FS modes and that have actually tried out Rollermod for good, not the ones that keep saying what they think it will look like without any field experience.
I think you got my point.
Have you ever actually tried out Rollermod or used Checkerboard mode using a Samsung Plasma or LED TV??? If the answer is no, please don't keep saying it's blurred. I've played many games and hours of gameplay in this mode and I own a C7000 Samsung Plasma that supports CB and FS modes. Off course CB 3D quality isn't as good as Generic CRT mode which is full resolution per eye, but there's no blurred image at all.
I want people that really have tried this mod for real to actually comment in this thread about his experience using CB or Generic CRT mode, not the ones that just keep writing technical stuff that they read on the web based on what they think CB will look like, not how it actually looks like. Nobsi, me, Roller a few other users from this forum have actually tried and are used to play games in CB mode using a Samsung TV. We're used to play games in CB while many others just try to imagine how it will look like based on what they think. Let's not assume things, let's experiment, let's try it out 1st before saying it's blurred image based on the explanation about pixels, mapping and half resolution per eye. If your TV don't support this mode, I'm sorry you can't say it's blurred, you haven't seem it. Do not assume things.
If you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, that's because you never tried this mod and therefore you can't say things like 720p Frame packing is superior to 1080p Checkerboard based on what you think???? It's not even close, I've tried 720p frame packing and also 1080p checkerboard, and everyone that I know from this forum that have also tried CB, all think that 1080p CB looks way better cause it's native resolution. Everyone of us that have ACTUALLY tried out Rollermod agree that native resolution is way more important than full resolution vs half resolution deal. The blurred image effect is what you get with a low resolution like 720p in a big display playing games in 3D, not the other way around.
It's funny that all users I've seen in this forum that say otherwise have never have actually tried CB or seen it with their own eyes. People that are doomed to play frame packing mode cause their TV don't support CB, they keep saying that 720p FP is superior to 1080p CB just based on technical stuff, not their experience using it.
How are you going to get any credibility about your thoughts if you never tried this out and keep assuming it's blurred image. It ain't!!!!!
Now when I play in 720p FP, I see horrible edges and blurred image cause of the low resolution in a big screen like 50 or 63", not when using CB 1080p. And believe me the difference between 1080p Frame Sequential (Generic CRT mode) vs 1080p Checkerboard is much less visible to your eyes compared to the quality difference between 720p Frame Packing vs 1080p Checkerboard. Native Resolution matters more than this deal about half vs full resolution per eye.
Why would all of us that have played CB and own a Samsung TV keep lying??? And why all of you that have never tried CB with a Samsung Plasma/LED TV know this better than us???? Are we trying to trick people, is Roller a priest or a fanatic and all of us have been brain washed by his thoughts, are we all puppets??? Come on...
You say that you're not familiar with Generic CRT mode, so this is proof that you never have actually tried Rollermod, cause this mod enables CB and also Generic CRT mode.
Also, the guy that started this thread and keep saying BS about Checkerboard quality, doesn't even know what is Generic CRT mode, so he wasn't even able to make Rollermod work and are assuming things, as Roller mentioned he coudn't even pass the Wizard Setup and so, he wasn't able to actually try out CB for real.
All Samsung 2010 TVs that support CB and few early 2011 TVs, they also support frame sequential mode (Generic CRT mode). So, it's most likely that you and the user that started this thread haven't really had enough time to experiment and play games in CB mode.
This is an old discussion and won't take anywhere. Just a thought for whoever read these posts, give credibility to the ones that own a 2010 or 2011 Samsung TV that benefit from CB or FS modes and that have actually tried out Rollermod for good, not the ones that keep saying what they think it will look like without any field experience.
I think you got my point.
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There ARE some technical facts that just can't be put aside. And I just stated them.
What I *can* do, however, and what I used to do, is to set a game to render in double the resolution my monitor is capable of (i.e. 1920x2160 or 3840x1080) and then have it downscale the image. That is no different to what you're doing.
And I know that there are some games where this works fine, while others look horrible. There is even a prolonged discussion about that effect in 3DCenter.de
Please understand while you might be perfectly right in your assessment that this solution works well with your display and the games you're playing, the OP of this thread can also be absolutely in his right to say that with HIS games on HIS display, it doesn't work to his satisfaction. I don't agree with the way he worded his disappointment, because he, too, neglected that there might be other situations than his. But I don't agree with your replies either. You make him look like an idiot, and I just don't think that his findings are so wrong after all.
This talk about "native resolution", however, is pure bull****, because it is not a native resolution. It's exactly HALF the native resolution, which is certainly still much better than 720p, as I've explained. But it's NOT the native resolution. But that's not the issue, the problem lies with the previous DOWNSCALING of the original 1080p image, not with the later UPSCALING. The upscaling is lossless, I agree with that. The downscaling certainly isn't.
If you want to see the effect I'm talking about, please use a game which uses a non-scaled HUD (I think SW:TOR might be a good example) and check if you have problems reading the text, especially with a very small font. Compare the result to a native, non 3D 1080p image, and you'll see the difference right away.
In 720p, the HUD would be shown quite larger but also to be much clearer and non-blurred.
There ARE some technical facts that just can't be put aside. And I just stated them.
What I *can* do, however, and what I used to do, is to set a game to render in double the resolution my monitor is capable of (i.e. 1920x2160 or 3840x1080) and then have it downscale the image. That is no different to what you're doing.
And I know that there are some games where this works fine, while others look horrible. There is even a prolonged discussion about that effect in 3DCenter.de
Please understand while you might be perfectly right in your assessment that this solution works well with your display and the games you're playing, the OP of this thread can also be absolutely in his right to say that with HIS games on HIS display, it doesn't work to his satisfaction. I don't agree with the way he worded his disappointment, because he, too, neglected that there might be other situations than his. But I don't agree with your replies either. You make him look like an idiot, and I just don't think that his findings are so wrong after all.
This talk about "native resolution", however, is pure bull****, because it is not a native resolution. It's exactly HALF the native resolution, which is certainly still much better than 720p, as I've explained. But it's NOT the native resolution. But that's not the issue, the problem lies with the previous DOWNSCALING of the original 1080p image, not with the later UPSCALING. The upscaling is lossless, I agree with that. The downscaling certainly isn't.
If you want to see the effect I'm talking about, please use a game which uses a non-scaled HUD (I think SW:TOR might be a good example) and check if you have problems reading the text, especially with a very small font. Compare the result to a native, non 3D 1080p image, and you'll see the difference right away.
In 720p, the HUD would be shown quite larger but also to be much clearer and non-blurred.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
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The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
It's not about efficiency, however. It's about how you transfer the image over a transport layer that only supports half the required bandwith. I have been corrected that the HDMI 1.4 spec does actually allow to increase the bandwith, however, this is not supported by any of the current display devices.
So you either have to reduce the number of images transported per second (i.e. 24p) or you have to reduce the resolution (720p or 1080CB). There is just no other way.
The effort to render the image is not affected, unless you reduce the rendering resolution to 720p. It's still the same, no matter whether you use 1080p over Dual-DVI, 1080@24fps or 1080 CB@60fps.
Rendering a full 1080p frame and discarding 50% percent of it to create half of the checkerboard would be a hugely inefficient way of doing things. I'm not saying that the drivers don't do this (I've no idea how it all works), but I've not noticed what would presumably be a huge performance hit when changing from 720p 3DTV Play to 1080p Checkerboard.
Add me to the growing list of satisfied rollermod users.
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
It's not about efficiency, however. It's about how you transfer the image over a transport layer that only supports half the required bandwith. I have been corrected that the HDMI 1.4 spec does actually allow to increase the bandwith, however, this is not supported by any of the current display devices.
So you either have to reduce the number of images transported per second (i.e. 24p) or you have to reduce the resolution (720p or 1080CB). There is just no other way.
The effort to render the image is not affected, unless you reduce the rendering resolution to 720p. It's still the same, no matter whether you use 1080p over Dual-DVI, 1080@24fps or 1080 CB@60fps.
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
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I have done a lot of 3d programming. You can easily adjust the aspect ratio so that it does not look stretched when the display stretches the image. That's a fact. Anyone who has done any programing related to 3d or 2d for that matter will tell you that.
The image has to be rendered at 1920x1080. If the game would render at 960x1080, it would have the wrong aspect ratio and would look all wrong (streched out).
I have done a lot of 3d programming. You can easily adjust the aspect ratio so that it does not look stretched when the display stretches the image. That's a fact. Anyone who has done any programing related to 3d or 2d for that matter will tell you that.
EDIT - this is aimed at grestorn.
EDIT - this is aimed at grestorn.