The Shadow Problem
Skyrim is given an excellent rating and I really have to disagree with this. I've tried "fixes" to only find that they are version specific and the one that I found that was the "latest" would cause my game to crash forcing me to reinstall the game.
I took a good look from each eye separately and noticed that the shadow was being cast on different areas. So if we consider the shadow of a tree on the ground, the shadow is cast on a different area of ground for each eye.
What I think is happening is that the shadowing is being applied post 3D rendering and not being taken into account. Shadows are suppose to cast on the same area regardless of which eye is viewing it. However, when focusing in on the shadow itself, it turns out that it is sitting at screen level. Meaning the same thing is happening to shadows as happens with many HUDs.
I was able to confirm this by viewing a generated jps file from two jpg screenshots (side by side).
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/818937339230775882/402FB42C8B66F5C126E3EE7935DFAA92DB487DFA/
Change the extension from jpg to jps and open in Nvidia 3D viewer. Swap eye under options.
It's hard to adjust the eyes to but if you look at the soft shadow cast by the tree, it's covering the same area of ground and renders just fine in 3D.
The Reflection Problem
The reflection problem is almost the opposite of the shadow. It's as if the reflection is just a texture applied to the same area of the surface that is doing the reflecting (eg water) but that's what shadows should do. The reflected image should be given the same offset as the real item being reflected. This will make the reflected image appear just as far away as the real thing that is being reflected. This is, of course, referring to when the water is reflecting the landscape above it and both are within view. However the same principle can be applied even if you are viewing yourself in a mirror and can see both your own reflection and that of whatever is behind you.
Now, had I been more careful and fine tuned the side by side capture, I could get a perfect 3D rendering. No glare problems, no shadow problem, and I'm confident reflections would work properly too.
Which begs the question, just how does the software render and deliver two different vantage points?
Skyrim is given an excellent rating and I really have to disagree with this. I've tried "fixes" to only find that they are version specific and the one that I found that was the "latest" would cause my game to crash forcing me to reinstall the game.
I took a good look from each eye separately and noticed that the shadow was being cast on different areas. So if we consider the shadow of a tree on the ground, the shadow is cast on a different area of ground for each eye.
What I think is happening is that the shadowing is being applied post 3D rendering and not being taken into account. Shadows are suppose to cast on the same area regardless of which eye is viewing it. However, when focusing in on the shadow itself, it turns out that it is sitting at screen level. Meaning the same thing is happening to shadows as happens with many HUDs.
I was able to confirm this by viewing a generated jps file from two jpg screenshots (side by side).
Change the extension from jpg to jps and open in Nvidia 3D viewer. Swap eye under options.
It's hard to adjust the eyes to but if you look at the soft shadow cast by the tree, it's covering the same area of ground and renders just fine in 3D.
The Reflection Problem
The reflection problem is almost the opposite of the shadow. It's as if the reflection is just a texture applied to the same area of the surface that is doing the reflecting (eg water) but that's what shadows should do. The reflected image should be given the same offset as the real item being reflected. This will make the reflected image appear just as far away as the real thing that is being reflected. This is, of course, referring to when the water is reflecting the landscape above it and both are within view. However the same principle can be applied even if you are viewing yourself in a mirror and can see both your own reflection and that of whatever is behind you.
Now, had I been more careful and fine tuned the side by side capture, I could get a perfect 3D rendering. No glare problems, no shadow problem, and I'm confident reflections would work properly too.
Which begs the question, just how does the software render and deliver two different vantage points?
You should post in the existing game thread.
Saying "Skyrim", should we assume that you mean the original version?
Also when asking for help, some basic info can go a long way.
You know, that stupid shit like driver version, OS, GPU, CPU, Display Model, etc...
plus the link to the fix that you mentioned....is it one from the community here? Your not very specific, it could be some early WIP as far as we know.
Saying "Skyrim", should we assume that you mean the original version?
Also when asking for help, some basic info can go a long way.
You know, that stupid shit like driver version, OS, GPU, CPU, Display Model, etc...
plus the link to the fix that you mentioned....is it one from the community here? Your not very specific, it could be some early WIP as far as we know.
This is either a joke post or a newbie post. Do you know about the Helixmod blog? Most games are playable in 3D because people fixed them:
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
Edit: I see that you mentioned using fixes.
Normal version or Special Edition? I have to sleep now, so I hope you get your answers.
This is either a joke post or a newbie post. Do you know about the Helixmod blog? Most games are playable in 3D because people fixed them:
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
Edit: I see that you mentioned using fixes.
Normal version or Special Edition? I have to sleep now, so I hope you get your answers.
Those are common issues with games in native 3D vision. It has been fixed for both Skyrim versions. You will find the fixes as mentionned before on the Helixmod.blogspot.
Those are common issues with games in native 3D vision. It has been fixed for both Skyrim versions. You will find the fixes as mentionned before on the Helixmod.blogspot.
Aren't you this guy?
[url]https://github.com/bo3b/3Dmigoto/issues/59[/url]
If you are, IGNORE THIS PERSON!
(Freaking impertinent person).
If you are someone different - although I DOUBT it, based on how you formulated the phrases - then I AM SORRY!
Please, put your "head to work" and do some searching and reading! (Google is your friend!).
What you describe there is a "non-fixed" game behaviour.
Tip:
First or all, try to disable all overlays(including Steam overlay which you clearly use and others) and apply the correct fix corresponding to the version of Skyrim version you are using... I bet there is where the problem is... (If you are using a PIRATED version of the game, expect -1 support here!)
PS:
Nope, not looking for "attention" (I've got too much of that ^_^)... Just forwarding the message!
If you are, IGNORE THIS PERSON!
(Freaking impertinent person).
If you are someone different - although I DOUBT it, based on how you formulated the phrases - then I AM SORRY!
Please, put your "head to work" and do some searching and reading! (Google is your friend!).
What you describe there is a "non-fixed" game behaviour.
Tip:
First or all, try to disable all overlays(including Steam overlay which you clearly use and others) and apply the correct fix corresponding to the version of Skyrim version you are using... I bet there is where the problem is... (If you are using a PIRATED version of the game, expect -1 support here!)
PS:
Nope, not looking for "attention" (I've got too much of that ^_^)... Just forwarding the message!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
Ahh hah, busted!!!!!!!
You should apologize for your ignorant remark
"Stop looking for attention bo3b and make room for those that know their stuff."
bo3b is a phenomenal person and has been a great help to everyone here, not to mention that he is extremely knowledgeable.
link to bo3b's school
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/766890/
Wow what nastiness.
To begin with, no I am not that person.
I searched for solutions to the problem (Yes I know how to use google and used a few other search engines as well) reading multiple threads which never dated any more recent than 2015. It's all the search engines provided and after going ~5 pages deep, the links just start going out to lunch. One link provided me with the All In One that is listed at that Helix page and was what caused the crashing but, no, the link wasn't to the Helix forum.
Only one other thread linked to the Helix page but it linked to a specific game and I should've paid closer attention (sorry for being human) because I closed that page under the assumption that Helix referred to a particular game.
Now I posted this here and not at the Skyrim forums because this is a problem that is not unique to Skyrim. Just as I didn't/won't post it over at the helix forum because this thread isn't about the mod. It's about the 3D kit's inability to handle shadows properly. I have the Stereoscopic 3D kit from when it first came out. Shadows have been an issue since day one and I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around. Yet now there is a version 2? I won't even get into how all the glue that held the rubber parts on my glasses was garbage. I'll refrain from going farther into a tirade than that and trust me, I can give it good.
My rig?
Sabertooth x79
I7-3820
GTX 780Ti
32 Gigs of Ram (16Gigs cause I'm still using Win7 x64 Home)
2 x Samsung 3D ready displays
250Gb SSD
Logitech 5.1 surround
Soundblaster Omega wireless headset
Razer Lycosa, Naga, and Nostromo
All of which I built myself (mobo and cpu separate)
Dynamic OC on both GPU and CPU limited by Temp restraints (I get 60% utilization running Skyrim on Max settings)
And as mentioned, first gen Nvidia Stereoscopic 3D kit
I got the latest drivers through Geforce Experience and even went and looked up the most recent 3D display drivers I could find directly from NVidia.
Is that enough "size comparing"? It's not the greatest but it's a matter of balancing budget with performance. Got these things called bills like rent, car payments, insurance, etc. Got these other things called kids.
Oh, and I bought Skyrim through steam back in late 2011 and I have all the DLCs.
Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Now I gotta say, I had to go back and read my OP two times. I'm no stranger to forums (particularly gaming forums), I even have EVE under my belt. There was no 'nastiness' or anything of the sort in my OP. Minor annoyance at most although it's certainly a different story now. So why the nasty replies? Just how toxic are these forums for such to be the default, knee jerk, reaction?
Edit: None of the "fixes" listed on the Helix page worked.
I searched for solutions to the problem (Yes I know how to use google and used a few other search engines as well) reading multiple threads which never dated any more recent than 2015. It's all the search engines provided and after going ~5 pages deep, the links just start going out to lunch. One link provided me with the All In One that is listed at that Helix page and was what caused the crashing but, no, the link wasn't to the Helix forum.
Only one other thread linked to the Helix page but it linked to a specific game and I should've paid closer attention (sorry for being human) because I closed that page under the assumption that Helix referred to a particular game.
Now I posted this here and not at the Skyrim forums because this is a problem that is not unique to Skyrim. Just as I didn't/won't post it over at the helix forum because this thread isn't about the mod. It's about the 3D kit's inability to handle shadows properly. I have the Stereoscopic 3D kit from when it first came out. Shadows have been an issue since day one and I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around. Yet now there is a version 2? I won't even get into how all the glue that held the rubber parts on my glasses was garbage. I'll refrain from going farther into a tirade than that and trust me, I can give it good.
My rig?
Sabertooth x79
I7-3820
GTX 780Ti
32 Gigs of Ram (16Gigs cause I'm still using Win7 x64 Home)
2 x Samsung 3D ready displays
250Gb SSD
Logitech 5.1 surround
Soundblaster Omega wireless headset
Razer Lycosa, Naga, and Nostromo
All of which I built myself (mobo and cpu separate)
Dynamic OC on both GPU and CPU limited by Temp restraints (I get 60% utilization running Skyrim on Max settings)
And as mentioned, first gen Nvidia Stereoscopic 3D kit
I got the latest drivers through Geforce Experience and even went and looked up the most recent 3D display drivers I could find directly from NVidia.
Is that enough "size comparing"? It's not the greatest but it's a matter of balancing budget with performance. Got these things called bills like rent, car payments, insurance, etc. Got these other things called kids.
Oh, and I bought Skyrim through steam back in late 2011 and I have all the DLCs.
Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Now I gotta say, I had to go back and read my OP two times. I'm no stranger to forums (particularly gaming forums), I even have EVE under my belt. There was no 'nastiness' or anything of the sort in my OP. Minor annoyance at most although it's certainly a different story now. So why the nasty replies? Just how toxic are these forums for such to be the default, knee jerk, reaction?
Edit: None of the "fixes" listed on the Helix page worked.
@deanhan: Well, we do tend to be a bit sensitive. We have a completely irrational love of 3D, and nearly everyone thinks we are stupid and tells us we are idiots for liking it. And, we are a very small group of enthusiasts, so it's a surprise when someone new shows up.
Your first post is not necessarily harsh, but it comes across as blaming us for a bad fix, which makes us defensive.
For the Skyrim fix, can someone who has it installed try it again and see it's still working? It's always possible the fix has been broken by updates/drivers/os.
The latest update is from mx-2, as of 12-12-16: [url]https://s3.amazonaws.com/mx-2/Skyrim-3d-fix.7z[/url]
[quote]Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Now I gotta say, I had to go back and read my OP two times. I'm no stranger to forums (particularly gaming forums), I even have EVE under my belt. There was no 'nastiness' or anything of the sort in my OP. Minor annoyance at most although it's certainly a different story now. So why the nasty replies? Just how toxic are these forums for such to be the default, knee jerk, reaction?
Edit: None of the "fixes" listed on the Helix page worked.[/quote]These mods are third party, made by the community here in the forums.
It seems like you are posting under the assumption that you are talking to NVidia, but that is not the case. NVidia never reads these forums, this is all user-to-user.
For the fix here for Skyrim, it should work. If the shadows are still broken as you describe, then the fix is not installed properly, or something else broke. The shadows should definitely look correct after the fix is working. You can tell if it's installed by using the V/B/N keys to change convergence levels. If they don't change, HelixMod did not load.
You'll get no disagreement from us that it's lame that NVidia does not support the technology, but we just took it upon ourselves to fix all the games instead of waiting around for a corporation to rent a clue.
For your original question- Nvidia has deprecated 3D, so there won't be any further fixes from them regarding shadows and reflections. Even still, it's far too complicated for them to fix automatically in the driver for DX11 games, and requires intervention on the part of either the game developer (hint- not gonna happen), or us as modders.
The problem happens because shadows typically use a technique called deferred rendering, which means the pixel shaders calculate the on screen location. The driver can't fix that in the guts of the pixel shader. But we can, when we replace the pixel shader with code that stereoizes the locations.
@deanhan: Well, we do tend to be a bit sensitive. We have a completely irrational love of 3D, and nearly everyone thinks we are stupid and tells us we are idiots for liking it. And, we are a very small group of enthusiasts, so it's a surprise when someone new shows up.
Your first post is not necessarily harsh, but it comes across as blaming us for a bad fix, which makes us defensive.
For the Skyrim fix, can someone who has it installed try it again and see it's still working? It's always possible the fix has been broken by updates/drivers/os.
Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Now I gotta say, I had to go back and read my OP two times. I'm no stranger to forums (particularly gaming forums), I even have EVE under my belt. There was no 'nastiness' or anything of the sort in my OP. Minor annoyance at most although it's certainly a different story now. So why the nasty replies? Just how toxic are these forums for such to be the default, knee jerk, reaction?
Edit: None of the "fixes" listed on the Helix page worked.
These mods are third party, made by the community here in the forums.
It seems like you are posting under the assumption that you are talking to NVidia, but that is not the case. NVidia never reads these forums, this is all user-to-user.
For the fix here for Skyrim, it should work. If the shadows are still broken as you describe, then the fix is not installed properly, or something else broke. The shadows should definitely look correct after the fix is working. You can tell if it's installed by using the V/B/N keys to change convergence levels. If they don't change, HelixMod did not load.
You'll get no disagreement from us that it's lame that NVidia does not support the technology, but we just took it upon ourselves to fix all the games instead of waiting around for a corporation to rent a clue.
For your original question- Nvidia has deprecated 3D, so there won't be any further fixes from them regarding shadows and reflections. Even still, it's far too complicated for them to fix automatically in the driver for DX11 games, and requires intervention on the part of either the game developer (hint- not gonna happen), or us as modders.
The problem happens because shadows typically use a technique called deferred rendering, which means the pixel shaders calculate the on screen location. The driver can't fix that in the guts of the pixel shader. But we can, when we replace the pixel shader with code that stereoizes the locations.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Hey guys,
I just checked Skyrim and it is still working fine.. the only really effect that looked broke was the blood on the screen.. other then that it was fine..
I am unsure what you are seeing but the fix works fine and I got it from the link bo3b posted above..
I just checked Skyrim and it is still working fine.. the only really effect that looked broke was the blood on the screen.. other then that it was fine..
I am unsure what you are seeing but the fix works fine and I got it from the link bo3b posted above..
Skyrim works perfectly fine here as allways :)
You could have installed a graphical impromement mod/ enb preset or something that breaks the fix..
Most mods don't break it though, I have 70+ mods installed :)
Deamhan said:
[color="green"] I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around. [/color]
Well... in the very same 8 years, allmost every game worth mentioning has been fixed, so what's your problem ??
You could have installed a graphical impromement mod/ enb preset or something that breaks the fix..
Most mods don't break it though, I have 70+ mods installed :)
Deamhan said: I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around.
Well... in the very same 8 years, allmost every game worth mentioning has been fixed, so what's your problem ??
Win7 64bit Pro
CPU: 4790K 4.8 GHZ
GPU: Aurus 1080 TI 2.08 GHZ - 100% Watercooled !
Monitor: Asus PG278QR
And lots of ram and HD's ;)
[quote="Deamhan"]I got the latest drivers through Geforce Experience and even went and looked up the most recent 3D display drivers I could find directly from NVidia.[/quote]
Starting with driver 275.XX, the 3D Vision drivers are no longer downloaded separately. Now you just downloasd an "all in one" driver. If you choose the custom install option, you can opt not to install GeForce experience and/or HD Audio. It's recommended that you use DDU when installing new drivers, to avoid corrupt installations, since Nvidia's installers aren't the best.
[quote="Deamhan"]Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.[/quote]
Nvidia provides the tools necessary for developers to implement 3D in their games. Nvidia has "zero" control over whether the developers include it in their games.
So put the blame where it lies, on the "developers"
Also, my apologies for assuming that you "were that person". The posts were very similar :P
Deamhan said:I got the latest drivers through Geforce Experience and even went and looked up the most recent 3D display drivers I could find directly from NVidia.
Starting with driver 275.XX, the 3D Vision drivers are no longer downloaded separately. Now you just downloasd an "all in one" driver. If you choose the custom install option, you can opt not to install GeForce experience and/or HD Audio. It's recommended that you use DDU when installing new drivers, to avoid corrupt installations, since Nvidia's installers aren't the best.
Deamhan said:Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Nvidia provides the tools necessary for developers to implement 3D in their games. Nvidia has "zero" control over whether the developers include it in their games.
So put the blame where it lies, on the "developers"
Also, my apologies for assuming that you "were that person". The posts were very similar :P
Thank you very much for the help. I'll mess around with that mod, although I'm certain I followed the instructions right (they are rather simple). For those who say it works fine, do you have the Special Edition? It's quite likely that I don't. Shortly after getting the game, I got the texture pack but only bought the rest of the DLCs this year. I have no other mods for the game.
I see that there is bit of a misunderstanding. I'm in no way bashing the fix. If anything I was bashing Nvidia for not supporting their own product. It's unfortunate that they don't bother with these forums and yes I was posting under the assumption that they do. It's great to see enthusiasts, that way it's not a dead product and it shows demand for stereoscopic 3D gaming. For me, I like immersion and the 3D certainly helps with that. I can lose myself in the game.
I was also under the impression that Nvidia created the kit to work with existing (post release) games and not that the kit is for devs when developing their game.
Edit: Ok so before I extracted it into the steamapps>common>skyrim folder but now I notice that there is an addition skyrim subfolder. I gave that a try with no luck. I then tried both folders again with the HD texture DLC turned off and again no luck.
By no luck I mean no change. No difference between no fix and fix. Something I noticed last time with the all in one was that I had to replace existing files. with this latest fix I don't. Could that have something to do with it?
Thank you very much for the help. I'll mess around with that mod, although I'm certain I followed the instructions right (they are rather simple). For those who say it works fine, do you have the Special Edition? It's quite likely that I don't. Shortly after getting the game, I got the texture pack but only bought the rest of the DLCs this year. I have no other mods for the game.
I see that there is bit of a misunderstanding. I'm in no way bashing the fix. If anything I was bashing Nvidia for not supporting their own product. It's unfortunate that they don't bother with these forums and yes I was posting under the assumption that they do. It's great to see enthusiasts, that way it's not a dead product and it shows demand for stereoscopic 3D gaming. For me, I like immersion and the 3D certainly helps with that. I can lose myself in the game.
I was also under the impression that Nvidia created the kit to work with existing (post release) games and not that the kit is for devs when developing their game.
Edit: Ok so before I extracted it into the steamapps>common>skyrim folder but now I notice that there is an addition skyrim subfolder. I gave that a try with no luck. I then tried both folders again with the HD texture DLC turned off and again no luck.
By no luck I mean no change. No difference between no fix and fix. Something I noticed last time with the all in one was that I had to replace existing files. with this latest fix I don't. Could that have something to do with it?
First we need to know if you are getting crashes in 2D without using the community fix?
Anytime that a game crashes with the fix, it's almost always due to the overlay of an app, like UPlay, Origin, Steam, EVGA Precision, MSI Afterburner, etc.....
The community fixes never replace anything. The fix consisist of a DLL that intercepts the Direct X calls in the game and tells it to load the corrected shaders that are contained in the override shader folder.
Community fixes do not patch the game and do not fix performance or runability issues.
Typically it's as simple as dropping the fix into the same game folder as the exe, just pay attention to the directions on helixblog and you should be fine.
Are you using this fix http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-special.html ?
The community fixes are not guaranteed to work with any mods, though in some cases it will. It's possible that the texture mod that you are using is causing an issue. With the fix and with your crash. The texture mod could be overloading the available memory of you GPU and/or system.
Also the texture mod could be changing the shaders, thus rendering the fix useless. The shaders that have been fixed are the original ones that came with the game.
First we need to know if you are getting crashes in 2D without using the community fix?
Anytime that a game crashes with the fix, it's almost always due to the overlay of an app, like UPlay, Origin, Steam, EVGA Precision, MSI Afterburner, etc.....
The community fixes never replace anything. The fix consisist of a DLL that intercepts the Direct X calls in the game and tells it to load the corrected shaders that are contained in the override shader folder.
Community fixes do not patch the game and do not fix performance or runability issues.
Typically it's as simple as dropping the fix into the same game folder as the exe, just pay attention to the directions on helixblog and you should be fine.
The community fixes are not guaranteed to work with any mods, though in some cases it will. It's possible that the texture mod that you are using is causing an issue. With the fix and with your crash. The texture mod could be overloading the available memory of you GPU and/or system.
Also the texture mod could be changing the shaders, thus rendering the fix useless. The shaders that have been fixed are the original ones that came with the game.
[quote="Deamhan"]I was also under the impression that Nvidia created the kit to work with existing (post release) games and not that the kit is for devs when developing their game. [/quote]
Nvidia does not develop the games.
Nor is Nvidia responsible for directX from Microsoft and how it's used to make a game.
Watch this basic video explaining shaders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDZMSozKZ20
Now also check out Nvidia's PDF, they give examples of how to leverage their stereoscopic drivers. Nvidia is responsible for the drivers and nothing else. The PDF is a brief oversight, there is more in their software development kit.
http://www.nvidia.com/content/gtc-2010/pdfs/2010_gtc2010.pdf
Now as the developer makes these shaders, he/she needs to code it so that it will render in both eyes when stereo 3D is used. It only takes a few miscoded shaders to ruin a game in 3D.
Thankfully, some brilliant people here have came up with a way to improve this, by correcting the borked shaders. Unfortunately, not all game engines are the same and the shaders get more complicated by the day. Not only are shaders fixed by these talented individuals here, in some cases shadows and lighting are fixed as well. The latter takes some exceptional skill and time to fix.
Many many thanks to all of our coders, shaders hackers, testers, Nvidia and all the others that keep 3D gaming alive.
Deamhan said:I was also under the impression that Nvidia created the kit to work with existing (post release) games and not that the kit is for devs when developing their game.
Nvidia does not develop the games.
Nor is Nvidia responsible for directX from Microsoft and how it's used to make a game.
Watch this basic video explaining shaders
Now also check out Nvidia's PDF, they give examples of how to leverage their stereoscopic drivers. Nvidia is responsible for the drivers and nothing else. The PDF is a brief oversight, there is more in their software development kit.
Now as the developer makes these shaders, he/she needs to code it so that it will render in both eyes when stereo 3D is used. It only takes a few miscoded shaders to ruin a game in 3D.
Thankfully, some brilliant people here have came up with a way to improve this, by correcting the borked shaders. Unfortunately, not all game engines are the same and the shaders get more complicated by the day. Not only are shaders fixed by these talented individuals here, in some cases shadows and lighting are fixed as well. The latter takes some exceptional skill and time to fix.
Many many thanks to all of our coders, shaders hackers, testers, Nvidia and all the others that keep 3D gaming alive.
Skyrim is given an excellent rating and I really have to disagree with this. I've tried "fixes" to only find that they are version specific and the one that I found that was the "latest" would cause my game to crash forcing me to reinstall the game.
I took a good look from each eye separately and noticed that the shadow was being cast on different areas. So if we consider the shadow of a tree on the ground, the shadow is cast on a different area of ground for each eye.
What I think is happening is that the shadowing is being applied post 3D rendering and not being taken into account. Shadows are suppose to cast on the same area regardless of which eye is viewing it. However, when focusing in on the shadow itself, it turns out that it is sitting at screen level. Meaning the same thing is happening to shadows as happens with many HUDs.
I was able to confirm this by viewing a generated jps file from two jpg screenshots (side by side).
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/818937339230775882/402FB42C8B66F5C126E3EE7935DFAA92DB487DFA/
Change the extension from jpg to jps and open in Nvidia 3D viewer. Swap eye under options.
It's hard to adjust the eyes to but if you look at the soft shadow cast by the tree, it's covering the same area of ground and renders just fine in 3D.
The Reflection Problem
The reflection problem is almost the opposite of the shadow. It's as if the reflection is just a texture applied to the same area of the surface that is doing the reflecting (eg water) but that's what shadows should do. The reflected image should be given the same offset as the real item being reflected. This will make the reflected image appear just as far away as the real thing that is being reflected. This is, of course, referring to when the water is reflecting the landscape above it and both are within view. However the same principle can be applied even if you are viewing yourself in a mirror and can see both your own reflection and that of whatever is behind you.
Now, had I been more careful and fine tuned the side by side capture, I could get a perfect 3D rendering. No glare problems, no shadow problem, and I'm confident reflections would work properly too.
Which begs the question, just how does the software render and deliver two different vantage points?
Saying "Skyrim", should we assume that you mean the original version?
Also when asking for help, some basic info can go a long way.
You know, that stupid shit like driver version, OS, GPU, CPU, Display Model, etc...
plus the link to the fix that you mentioned....is it one from the community here? Your not very specific, it could be some early WIP as far as we know.
http://helixmod.blogspot.com
Edit: I see that you mentioned using fixes.
Normal version or Special Edition? I have to sleep now, so I hope you get your answers.
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https://github.com/bo3b/3Dmigoto/issues/59
If you are, IGNORE THIS PERSON!
(Freaking impertinent person).
If you are someone different - although I DOUBT it, based on how you formulated the phrases - then I AM SORRY!
Please, put your "head to work" and do some searching and reading! (Google is your friend!).
What you describe there is a "non-fixed" game behaviour.
Tip:
First or all, try to disable all overlays(including Steam overlay which you clearly use and others) and apply the correct fix corresponding to the version of Skyrim version you are using... I bet there is where the problem is... (If you are using a PIRATED version of the game, expect -1 support here!)
PS:
Nope, not looking for "attention" (I've got too much of that ^_^)... Just forwarding the message!
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etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
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(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
You should apologize for your ignorant remark
"Stop looking for attention bo3b and make room for those that know their stuff."
bo3b is a phenomenal person and has been a great help to everyone here, not to mention that he is extremely knowledgeable.
link to bo3b's school
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/766890/
To begin with, no I am not that person.
I searched for solutions to the problem (Yes I know how to use google and used a few other search engines as well) reading multiple threads which never dated any more recent than 2015. It's all the search engines provided and after going ~5 pages deep, the links just start going out to lunch. One link provided me with the All In One that is listed at that Helix page and was what caused the crashing but, no, the link wasn't to the Helix forum.
Only one other thread linked to the Helix page but it linked to a specific game and I should've paid closer attention (sorry for being human) because I closed that page under the assumption that Helix referred to a particular game.
Now I posted this here and not at the Skyrim forums because this is a problem that is not unique to Skyrim. Just as I didn't/won't post it over at the helix forum because this thread isn't about the mod. It's about the 3D kit's inability to handle shadows properly. I have the Stereoscopic 3D kit from when it first came out. Shadows have been an issue since day one and I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around. Yet now there is a version 2? I won't even get into how all the glue that held the rubber parts on my glasses was garbage. I'll refrain from going farther into a tirade than that and trust me, I can give it good.
My rig?
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All of which I built myself (mobo and cpu separate)
Dynamic OC on both GPU and CPU limited by Temp restraints (I get 60% utilization running Skyrim on Max settings)
And as mentioned, first gen Nvidia Stereoscopic 3D kit
I got the latest drivers through Geforce Experience and even went and looked up the most recent 3D display drivers I could find directly from NVidia.
Is that enough "size comparing"? It's not the greatest but it's a matter of balancing budget with performance. Got these things called bills like rent, car payments, insurance, etc. Got these other things called kids.
Oh, and I bought Skyrim through steam back in late 2011 and I have all the DLCs.
Looks like those mods are third party. I'll give'em a go but even if I had found the right one, there's still justification to post. Shouldn't have to rely on third party fixes when it's the company's responsibility to provide a working product.
Now I gotta say, I had to go back and read my OP two times. I'm no stranger to forums (particularly gaming forums), I even have EVE under my belt. There was no 'nastiness' or anything of the sort in my OP. Minor annoyance at most although it's certainly a different story now. So why the nasty replies? Just how toxic are these forums for such to be the default, knee jerk, reaction?
Edit: None of the "fixes" listed on the Helix page worked.
Your first post is not necessarily harsh, but it comes across as blaming us for a bad fix, which makes us defensive.
For the Skyrim fix, can someone who has it installed try it again and see it's still working? It's always possible the fix has been broken by updates/drivers/os.
The latest update is from mx-2, as of 12-12-16: https://s3.amazonaws.com/mx-2/Skyrim-3d-fix.7z
These mods are third party, made by the community here in the forums.
It seems like you are posting under the assumption that you are talking to NVidia, but that is not the case. NVidia never reads these forums, this is all user-to-user.
For the fix here for Skyrim, it should work. If the shadows are still broken as you describe, then the fix is not installed properly, or something else broke. The shadows should definitely look correct after the fix is working. You can tell if it's installed by using the V/B/N keys to change convergence levels. If they don't change, HelixMod did not load.
You'll get no disagreement from us that it's lame that NVidia does not support the technology, but we just took it upon ourselves to fix all the games instead of waiting around for a corporation to rent a clue.
For your original question- Nvidia has deprecated 3D, so there won't be any further fixes from them regarding shadows and reflections. Even still, it's far too complicated for them to fix automatically in the driver for DX11 games, and requires intervention on the part of either the game developer (hint- not gonna happen), or us as modders.
The problem happens because shadows typically use a technique called deferred rendering, which means the pixel shaders calculate the on screen location. The driver can't fix that in the guts of the pixel shader. But we can, when we replace the pixel shader with code that stereoizes the locations.
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I just checked Skyrim and it is still working fine.. the only really effect that looked broke was the blood on the screen.. other then that it was fine..
I am unsure what you are seeing but the fix works fine and I got it from the link bo3b posted above..
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You could have installed a graphical impromement mod/ enb preset or something that breaks the fix..
Most mods don't break it though, I have 70+ mods installed :)
Deamhan said:
I post this partly in disbelief that after more than 8 years, the same old problems are still around.
Well... in the very same 8 years, allmost every game worth mentioning has been fixed, so what's your problem ??
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And lots of ram and HD's ;)
Starting with driver 275.XX, the 3D Vision drivers are no longer downloaded separately. Now you just downloasd an "all in one" driver. If you choose the custom install option, you can opt not to install GeForce experience and/or HD Audio. It's recommended that you use DDU when installing new drivers, to avoid corrupt installations, since Nvidia's installers aren't the best.
Nvidia provides the tools necessary for developers to implement 3D in their games. Nvidia has "zero" control over whether the developers include it in their games.
So put the blame where it lies, on the "developers"
Also, my apologies for assuming that you "were that person". The posts were very similar :P
I see that there is bit of a misunderstanding. I'm in no way bashing the fix. If anything I was bashing Nvidia for not supporting their own product. It's unfortunate that they don't bother with these forums and yes I was posting under the assumption that they do. It's great to see enthusiasts, that way it's not a dead product and it shows demand for stereoscopic 3D gaming. For me, I like immersion and the 3D certainly helps with that. I can lose myself in the game.
I was also under the impression that Nvidia created the kit to work with existing (post release) games and not that the kit is for devs when developing their game.
Edit: Ok so before I extracted it into the steamapps>common>skyrim folder but now I notice that there is an addition skyrim subfolder. I gave that a try with no luck. I then tried both folders again with the HD texture DLC turned off and again no luck.
By no luck I mean no change. No difference between no fix and fix. Something I noticed last time with the all in one was that I had to replace existing files. with this latest fix I don't. Could that have something to do with it?
Anytime that a game crashes with the fix, it's almost always due to the overlay of an app, like UPlay, Origin, Steam, EVGA Precision, MSI Afterburner, etc.....
The community fixes never replace anything. The fix consisist of a DLL that intercepts the Direct X calls in the game and tells it to load the corrected shaders that are contained in the override shader folder.
Community fixes do not patch the game and do not fix performance or runability issues.
Typically it's as simple as dropping the fix into the same game folder as the exe, just pay attention to the directions on helixblog and you should be fine.
Are you using this fix http://helixmod.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-special.html ?
The community fixes are not guaranteed to work with any mods, though in some cases it will. It's possible that the texture mod that you are using is causing an issue. With the fix and with your crash. The texture mod could be overloading the available memory of you GPU and/or system.
Also the texture mod could be changing the shaders, thus rendering the fix useless. The shaders that have been fixed are the original ones that came with the game.
Nvidia does not develop the games.
Nor is Nvidia responsible for directX from Microsoft and how it's used to make a game.
Watch this basic video explaining shaders
Now also check out Nvidia's PDF, they give examples of how to leverage their stereoscopic drivers. Nvidia is responsible for the drivers and nothing else. The PDF is a brief oversight, there is more in their software development kit.
http://www.nvidia.com/content/gtc-2010/pdfs/2010_gtc2010.pdf
Now as the developer makes these shaders, he/she needs to code it so that it will render in both eyes when stereo 3D is used. It only takes a few miscoded shaders to ruin a game in 3D.
Thankfully, some brilliant people here have came up with a way to improve this, by correcting the borked shaders. Unfortunately, not all game engines are the same and the shaders get more complicated by the day. Not only are shaders fixed by these talented individuals here, in some cases shadows and lighting are fixed as well. The latter takes some exceptional skill and time to fix.
Many many thanks to all of our coders, shaders hackers, testers, Nvidia and all the others that keep 3D gaming alive.