Lower Sharpness to Fix Checkerboard Ghosting on Samsung 2011 LCDs (Fixes 3d ghosting on this tv and
I saw someone post on my old thread about the new 2011 Samsung D8000 TVs that he was getting terrible ghosting in 3d Checkerboard mode on the same tv. I had the same problem. Don't know if anyone has talked about this before, but below is how I fixed it on my tv and why I think it happened. This might help on other TVs too. Feel free to try it if you have a different TV. If it helps, please let everyone know.

The fix is to reduce sharpness to around 17 to 22 (out of 100).

My guess why this works is that this is essentially the setting which makes the tv stop trying to make the image "sharper". Sharpness is a stupid setting on modern TVs. It's only really useful for standard definition broadcasts because it can make them look better. But on new TVs "sharpness" is something you really don't want because it actually only kinda blurs things. Anyway, the TV seems to be programmed poorly and it's performing the sharpness algorithms on the full 1920x1080 image instead of performing it seperately on the left and right eye images. This results in the left and right images being blurred into each other. Samsung could easily fix this with a firmware update, but it's also easily fixed by turning sharpness down. This would not be an issue for Side-by-Side or Top-bottom. It might be for an interlaced image though.

I have no idea if this goes for other TVs too. But I wouldn't be surprised if it did. If you have bad ghosting and are using checkerboard, it won't hurt ya to try lowering your sharpness level.
I saw someone post on my old thread about the new 2011 Samsung D8000 TVs that he was getting terrible ghosting in 3d Checkerboard mode on the same tv. I had the same problem. Don't know if anyone has talked about this before, but below is how I fixed it on my tv and why I think it happened. This might help on other TVs too. Feel free to try it if you have a different TV. If it helps, please let everyone know.



The fix is to reduce sharpness to around 17 to 22 (out of 100).



My guess why this works is that this is essentially the setting which makes the tv stop trying to make the image "sharper". Sharpness is a stupid setting on modern TVs. It's only really useful for standard definition broadcasts because it can make them look better. But on new TVs "sharpness" is something you really don't want because it actually only kinda blurs things. Anyway, the TV seems to be programmed poorly and it's performing the sharpness algorithms on the full 1920x1080 image instead of performing it seperately on the left and right eye images. This results in the left and right images being blurred into each other. Samsung could easily fix this with a firmware update, but it's also easily fixed by turning sharpness down. This would not be an issue for Side-by-Side or Top-bottom. It might be for an interlaced image though.



I have no idea if this goes for other TVs too. But I wouldn't be surprised if it did. If you have bad ghosting and are using checkerboard, it won't hurt ya to try lowering your sharpness level.

#1
Posted 04/14/2011 06:30 AM   
Austin,
Thanks for this extremely valuable suggestion. I'm going to see if it applies to my 2010 Samsung plasma.
Austin,

Thanks for this extremely valuable suggestion. I'm going to see if it applies to my 2010 Samsung plasma.

#2
Posted 04/14/2011 02:29 PM   
Under 'picture' options, I see 'sharpness', but it is set to 50 and it's grayed out so I can't adjust it. Is this the place to look and is yours grayed out?
Under 'picture' options, I see 'sharpness', but it is set to 50 and it's grayed out so I can't adjust it. Is this the place to look and is yours grayed out?

#3
Posted 04/14/2011 02:34 PM   
Hmmm... well as I said, it's an error made by the guys who programmed the tv. Sharpness shouldn't be applied to a checkerboard image at all. So my guess is that it's disabled when you are in checkerboard mode, which is sometimes the TV's pc mode which should also not apply sharpness.

I posted since I thought it might be a problem on older samsungs as well if they were re-using code. But apparently this is a new problem. Could easily be overlooked if they had the sharpness set low when they tested the tv in checkerboard mode.

But in 3D mode it literally was just like a "Add Ghosting" setting which went way way up if you turned up sharpness. Roller11, if you could see how bad it is with 100 sharpness, there is no way you would have been pushing for checkerboard support so much. :)
Hmmm... well as I said, it's an error made by the guys who programmed the tv. Sharpness shouldn't be applied to a checkerboard image at all. So my guess is that it's disabled when you are in checkerboard mode, which is sometimes the TV's pc mode which should also not apply sharpness.



I posted since I thought it might be a problem on older samsungs as well if they were re-using code. But apparently this is a new problem. Could easily be overlooked if they had the sharpness set low when they tested the tv in checkerboard mode.



But in 3D mode it literally was just like a "Add Ghosting" setting which went way way up if you turned up sharpness. Roller11, if you could see how bad it is with 100 sharpness, there is no way you would have been pushing for checkerboard support so much. :)

#4
Posted 04/14/2011 04:11 PM   
So you're saying that this "add ghosting" is in the 2011 Samsungs due to bad programming and not in the previous 2010 TVs, right?
Do you have any way to compare visually a 2011 Samsung to a 2010 Samsung for ghosting (assuming the 2011 sharpness is turned way down)?
So you're saying that this "add ghosting" is in the 2011 Samsungs due to bad programming and not in the previous 2010 TVs, right?

Do you have any way to compare visually a 2011 Samsung to a 2010 Samsung for ghosting (assuming the 2011 sharpness is turned way down)?

#5
Posted 04/14/2011 04:43 PM   
I didn't really spend that long with it. But the ghosting was terrible and after I adjusted the sharpness, I didn't see any ghosting at all. It looked great. Roller, my guess is your tv does not have this particular problem at all.

Ghosting is usually caused by either the tv not being able to change the image fast enough, or by there being a problem with the shutter glasses synchronization. The TV and glasses work great on the new samsung tvs.

This problem is a different type of ghosting that is caused by the left and right eye images being sharpened (blurred) onto each other. As I said, someone mentioned terrible ghosting on this exact tv on this forum and so I was just letting him and everyone else know that if the sharpness setting is wrong on this tv you will see what appears to be terrible ghosting in checkerboard mode. This is easily fixed by changing this setting. But it won't improve ghosting on a TV unless it is suffering from the same exact cause of the problem. As far as I know for sure, this is a problem on the new D8000s. But this is the only 3D tv that I have or have ever tested. So I don't know if it affects other models or manufacturers.
I didn't really spend that long with it. But the ghosting was terrible and after I adjusted the sharpness, I didn't see any ghosting at all. It looked great. Roller, my guess is your tv does not have this particular problem at all.



Ghosting is usually caused by either the tv not being able to change the image fast enough, or by there being a problem with the shutter glasses synchronization. The TV and glasses work great on the new samsung tvs.



This problem is a different type of ghosting that is caused by the left and right eye images being sharpened (blurred) onto each other. As I said, someone mentioned terrible ghosting on this exact tv on this forum and so I was just letting him and everyone else know that if the sharpness setting is wrong on this tv you will see what appears to be terrible ghosting in checkerboard mode. This is easily fixed by changing this setting. But it won't improve ghosting on a TV unless it is suffering from the same exact cause of the problem. As far as I know for sure, this is a problem on the new D8000s. But this is the only 3D tv that I have or have ever tested. So I don't know if it affects other models or manufacturers.

#6
Posted 04/14/2011 08:38 PM   
" after I adjusted the sharpness, I didn't see any ghosting at all. It looked great."

This statement is particularly intriguing, does this refer to 3D games or BR3D, DirectV 3D, or what? While I apparently don't have the ghosting prob of sharpness, I do see significant ghosting in 3D games. Samsung claims they reduced ghosting and dithering on their 2011 models but I figured that was just sales hype. I'm interested in the 2011 models since I'm not commited to my 2010 model. Any additional info, subjective or otherwise is greatly appreciated.
" after I adjusted the sharpness, I didn't see any ghosting at all. It looked great."



This statement is particularly intriguing, does this refer to 3D games or BR3D, DirectV 3D, or what? While I apparently don't have the ghosting prob of sharpness, I do see significant ghosting in 3D games. Samsung claims they reduced ghosting and dithering on their 2011 models but I figured that was just sales hype. I'm interested in the 2011 models since I'm not commited to my 2010 model. Any additional info, subjective or otherwise is greatly appreciated.

#7
Posted 04/14/2011 10:08 PM   
I have really nothing to compare it to except a few minutes looking at other TVs in the store or watching Avatar in passive 3D at the movie theater.

But the movie quality on the Shrek 3D Bluray was about as perfect as I think it can be. I noticed no problems or ghosting. For gaming I briefly tested the PS3 and some dumb racing demo. It looked ok I guess. But was kinda blurry since it was in 720p upscaled to 1080. Plus I don't know how good that game is supposed to look anyway. I also tested the iZ3D and Tri-Def drivers (which support checkerboard). Both showed extreme ghosting until I adjusted the sharpness down. Afterwards, I noticed none. I tested Dirt 2 and Left 4 Dead. They both looked very good. I don't own an nvidia card, but I plan to probably buy a gtx580 and 3dtv play when they fix the checkerboard issue. If it takes too long, I might wait until gtx 600 series in about six months which I'm guessing can play just about anything in 3D with full max settings and 60fps. But actually, the 580 is probably good enough though.

Samsung is also lowering the price of their cheapest 3D glasses to $50 starting May 1st. It comes with a mail-in voucher for 2 pair. But this makes this tv a lot more affordable if you need more glasses than that or don't wanna wait for the glasses to be amiled to you in 10-12 weeks.
I have really nothing to compare it to except a few minutes looking at other TVs in the store or watching Avatar in passive 3D at the movie theater.



But the movie quality on the Shrek 3D Bluray was about as perfect as I think it can be. I noticed no problems or ghosting. For gaming I briefly tested the PS3 and some dumb racing demo. It looked ok I guess. But was kinda blurry since it was in 720p upscaled to 1080. Plus I don't know how good that game is supposed to look anyway. I also tested the iZ3D and Tri-Def drivers (which support checkerboard). Both showed extreme ghosting until I adjusted the sharpness down. Afterwards, I noticed none. I tested Dirt 2 and Left 4 Dead. They both looked very good. I don't own an nvidia card, but I plan to probably buy a gtx580 and 3dtv play when they fix the checkerboard issue. If it takes too long, I might wait until gtx 600 series in about six months which I'm guessing can play just about anything in 3D with full max settings and 60fps. But actually, the 580 is probably good enough though.



Samsung is also lowering the price of their cheapest 3D glasses to $50 starting May 1st. It comes with a mail-in voucher for 2 pair. But this makes this tv a lot more affordable if you need more glasses than that or don't wanna wait for the glasses to be amiled to you in 10-12 weeks.

#8
Posted 04/14/2011 11:53 PM   
[quote name='AustinTex' date='14 April 2011 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1302825222' post='1224920']
I have really nothing to compare it to except a few minutes looking at other TVs in the store or watching Avatar in passive 3D at the movie theater.

But the movie quality on the Shrek 3D Bluray was about as perfect as I think it can be. I noticed no problems or ghosting. For gaming I briefly tested the PS3 and some dumb racing demo. It looked ok I guess. But was kinda blurry since it was in 720p upscaled to 1080. Plus I don't know how good that game is supposed to look anyway. I also tested the iZ3D and Tri-Def drivers (which support checkerboard). Both showed extreme ghosting until I adjusted the sharpness down. Afterwards, I noticed none. I tested Dirt 2 and Left 4 Dead. They both looked very good. I don't own an nvidia card, but I plan to probably buy a gtx580 and 3dtv play when they fix the checkerboard issue. If it takes too long, I might wait until gtx 600 series in about six months which I'm guessing can play just about anything in 3D with full max settings and 60fps. But actually, the 580 is probably good enough though.

Samsung is also lowering the price of their cheapest 3D glasses to $50 starting May 1st. It comes with a mail-in voucher for 2 pair. But this makes this tv a lot more affordable if you need more glasses than that or don't wanna wait for the glasses to be amiled to you in 10-12 weeks.
[/quote]
Okay, great to get feedback. I'm interested mostly in games cause there's just not much content on BR3D. Thing is, ghosting depends greatly on the particular game. For example, I notice no ghosting on Modern Warfare2. Bioshock2 has obvious ghosting as does Bulletstorm. There's a huge difference between drivers and settings too. The iZ3D drivers have less ghosting than 3D Vision, but that comes at the expense of depth. I can get rid of ghosting altogether with 3D Vision if I crank the depth way down. So to get a proper A-B compare, you must make sure all these factors are the same.
I forget, which model do you have? I'm think it was a 55" LED, right?
[quote name='AustinTex' date='14 April 2011 - 05:53 PM' timestamp='1302825222' post='1224920']

I have really nothing to compare it to except a few minutes looking at other TVs in the store or watching Avatar in passive 3D at the movie theater.



But the movie quality on the Shrek 3D Bluray was about as perfect as I think it can be. I noticed no problems or ghosting. For gaming I briefly tested the PS3 and some dumb racing demo. It looked ok I guess. But was kinda blurry since it was in 720p upscaled to 1080. Plus I don't know how good that game is supposed to look anyway. I also tested the iZ3D and Tri-Def drivers (which support checkerboard). Both showed extreme ghosting until I adjusted the sharpness down. Afterwards, I noticed none. I tested Dirt 2 and Left 4 Dead. They both looked very good. I don't own an nvidia card, but I plan to probably buy a gtx580 and 3dtv play when they fix the checkerboard issue. If it takes too long, I might wait until gtx 600 series in about six months which I'm guessing can play just about anything in 3D with full max settings and 60fps. But actually, the 580 is probably good enough though.



Samsung is also lowering the price of their cheapest 3D glasses to $50 starting May 1st. It comes with a mail-in voucher for 2 pair. But this makes this tv a lot more affordable if you need more glasses than that or don't wanna wait for the glasses to be amiled to you in 10-12 weeks.



Okay, great to get feedback. I'm interested mostly in games cause there's just not much content on BR3D. Thing is, ghosting depends greatly on the particular game. For example, I notice no ghosting on Modern Warfare2. Bioshock2 has obvious ghosting as does Bulletstorm. There's a huge difference between drivers and settings too. The iZ3D drivers have less ghosting than 3D Vision, but that comes at the expense of depth. I can get rid of ghosting altogether with 3D Vision if I crank the depth way down. So to get a proper A-B compare, you must make sure all these factors are the same.

I forget, which model do you have? I'm think it was a 55" LED, right?

#9
Posted 04/15/2011 12:40 AM   
plasma ghosts because of colors, the red , green blue phoshphor have different decay characteristics (memory effect). Besides the brightness is just way too low to bother.
plasma ghosts because of colors, the red , green blue phoshphor have different decay characteristics (memory effect). Besides the brightness is just way too low to bother.

#10
Posted 04/15/2011 05:02 AM   
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='14 April 2011 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1302843762' post='1225013']
plasma ghosts because of colors, the red , green blue phoshphor have different decay characteristics (memory effect). Besides the brightness is just way too low to bother.
[/quote]
I'm considering trading in my 2010 63" plasma on a 2011 model, either 59" plasma, or a 55" LED. The brightness thing is important, have you actually visually compared plasma to LED, or are you reporting what others have said?
[quote name='tritosine2k' date='14 April 2011 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1302843762' post='1225013']

plasma ghosts because of colors, the red , green blue phoshphor have different decay characteristics (memory effect). Besides the brightness is just way too low to bother.



I'm considering trading in my 2010 63" plasma on a 2011 model, either 59" plasma, or a 55" LED. The brightness thing is important, have you actually visually compared plasma to LED, or are you reporting what others have said?

#11
Posted 04/15/2011 02:02 PM   
roller11,
Regarding Bioshock 2, there are two problems with that game really 1) if you run it in DX10 mode and you have SLI you get texture flickering and flashing and little to no ghosting, and 2) if you run the game in DX9 you get no texture flashing but you get some ghosting. It's a real pain with that game, since 2K never fixed SLI. This is how I have experienced the game on my Mits DLP checkerboard.

-photios
roller11,

Regarding Bioshock 2, there are two problems with that game really 1) if you run it in DX10 mode and you have SLI you get texture flickering and flashing and little to no ghosting, and 2) if you run the game in DX9 you get no texture flashing but you get some ghosting. It's a real pain with that game, since 2K never fixed SLI. This is how I have experienced the game on my Mits DLP checkerboard.



-photios

#12
Posted 04/15/2011 02:33 PM   
I strongly urge any of you with the same problem with the D-series LED/LCDs to contact Samsung support and tell them to file a firmware bug report...

While going down on sharpness might better the picture, there is still some noticeable crosstalk between the two pictures...
I strongly urge any of you with the same problem with the D-series LED/LCDs to contact Samsung support and tell them to file a firmware bug report...



While going down on sharpness might better the picture, there is still some noticeable crosstalk between the two pictures...

#13
Posted 05/13/2011 02:55 PM   
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