Count me in . Anything for 3D these days and would spend long hours if need be once the source is release . There must be hooks of course, some form of design specs must also be available ...Anyway it''s going to be fun fun ...
Count me in . Anything for 3D these days and would spend long hours if need be once the source is release . There must be hooks of course, some form of design specs must also be available ...Anyway it''s going to be fun fun ...
I am glad that there are other people like me interested in increasing the quality of stereo 3d support......
I don't think we have the "right" to demand the stereo drivers to be made open source..... I mean nvidia bought elsa and surely paid some money and since they are offering their stereo drivers for free there is not much to complain about concerning that issue......
I think the reason why support and development might be so poor is the fact that almost 9 out of 10 people never experienced stereo 3d...... If there is no demand nothing (or not much) is going to change.....
But it could even be worse.... this is what an ATI-employee has to say about ATI not supporting stereo 3d at all:
[quote]Hi Spud,
This was supposed to be a Multimedia forum, but seems you really want an ATI answer. Well, stereo in general is a FireGL feature, where the application has to support it. The reason behind this is that two different pictures have to be rendered and the frama buffer has to support quad-buffering.
With Radeon, there simply is no out-of-the box stereo support. Nvidia has it, because a small company in Germany, ELSA implemented it for their stereo shutter glasses (ELSA Revelator) and when they stopped development of HW and drivers, NVidia picked it up. I worked for that company that time...
So this is not much of answer, but at least you got one of an "ATI-dude".
What do you need it for? Gaming or some other application? It works for example in MAX and Alias Studio as far as I know.
When I worked at the Games Convention this year, a company dropped by who used a prism mask on any TFT. It worked very well and didn't require any HW interface. I could try to dig their address up, if you're interested...
When I first saw 3D stereo for games it was too early from the technical standpoint. It was in the ages of TNT2 and first GeForce 256s. Most Monitors couldn't handle the required 140 or even 160 Hz and games performance really suffered from stereo rendering. So mostly you had to go back to 800x600. Nowadays we would have enough performance to run almost any game at 10x7 with acceptable frame rates, but a whole lot of people use stereo-incpmpliant flat panels. So again it's a small amount of people interested in 3D stereo. But considering the rendering power we have now, we should re-think supporting it, you're right.
__________________
Cheers,
Mike - Product Marketing Manager
ATi Multimedia[/quote]
I already started some initiatives to make stereo 3d more popular with threads like this one : [url="http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=124355"]http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=124355[/url]
I think if we get enough people showing true interest in some changes (maybe by using this thread here as our base) I could contact nvidia relating to this thread and tell them our point of view.......
I am glad that there are other people like me interested in increasing the quality of stereo 3d support......
I don't think we have the "right" to demand the stereo drivers to be made open source..... I mean nvidia bought elsa and surely paid some money and since they are offering their stereo drivers for free there is not much to complain about concerning that issue......
I think the reason why support and development might be so poor is the fact that almost 9 out of 10 people never experienced stereo 3d...... If there is no demand nothing (or not much) is going to change.....
But it could even be worse.... this is what an ATI-employee has to say about ATI not supporting stereo 3d at all:
Hi Spud,
This was supposed to be a Multimedia forum, but seems you really want an ATI answer. Well, stereo in general is a FireGL feature, where the application has to support it. The reason behind this is that two different pictures have to be rendered and the frama buffer has to support quad-buffering.
With Radeon, there simply is no out-of-the box stereo support. Nvidia has it, because a small company in Germany, ELSA implemented it for their stereo shutter glasses (ELSA Revelator) and when they stopped development of HW and drivers, NVidia picked it up. I worked for that company that time...
So this is not much of answer, but at least you got one of an "ATI-dude".
What do you need it for? Gaming or some other application? It works for example in MAX and Alias Studio as far as I know.
When I worked at the Games Convention this year, a company dropped by who used a prism mask on any TFT. It worked very well and didn't require any HW interface. I could try to dig their address up, if you're interested...
When I first saw 3D stereo for games it was too early from the technical standpoint. It was in the ages of TNT2 and first GeForce 256s. Most Monitors couldn't handle the required 140 or even 160 Hz and games performance really suffered from stereo rendering. So mostly you had to go back to 800x600. Nowadays we would have enough performance to run almost any game at 10x7 with acceptable frame rates, but a whole lot of people use stereo-incpmpliant flat panels. So again it's a small amount of people interested in 3D stereo. But considering the rendering power we have now, we should re-think supporting it, you're right.
I think if we get enough people showing true interest in some changes (maybe by using this thread here as our base) I could contact nvidia relating to this thread and tell them our point of view.......
Some opinions on that would be nice......
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)
Great thread.
I sure would like to see this happen. There's not much to add I guess except maybe for one thing that hasn't been mentioned: DLP.
Yes, stereo-incompatible TFT monitors are very popular now, which is bad for the demand for stereo. However, DLP projectors are (as far as I know) probably the best thing that happened to stereo in years: they are just perfect for the job and growing in popularity. This might just be the right time to start marketing stereo3d. Oh, and HMD's are getting better too :P
And...wasn't IBM working on an affordable passive-stereo DLP based rear projection TV?
I sure would like to see this happen. There's not much to add I guess except maybe for one thing that hasn't been mentioned: DLP.
Yes, stereo-incompatible TFT monitors are very popular now, which is bad for the demand for stereo. However, DLP projectors are (as far as I know) probably the best thing that happened to stereo in years: they are just perfect for the job and growing in popularity. This might just be the right time to start marketing stereo3d. Oh, and HMD's are getting better too :P
And...wasn't IBM working on an affordable passive-stereo DLP based rear projection TV?
I think nVidia are being rather naive over the massive potential for marketing their hardware based on what, in reality, would cost pennies per boxed retail item. I absolutely love my nvid GFX cards, and have since the TNT2/GF256. The only problem is, while you get better frame rates and stability from nV cards compared to the ATI equivalents, the average punter on the street won't look up the relevant info / performance comparisons/driver support before buying. (we all will, but we're not the average buyer.)
What i'm trying to put forward is that most gfx cards around do basically the same thing. In different ways, with subtly different results, but essentially the same thing.
If nVidia took the small outlay on sorting the stereo drivers out and chucking a cheap card/plastic set of anaglyph specs in the box with the card, their product would immediately have a massive advantage over the competition - it now, very publicly, and easily, does something no other brand can claim to.
Then, on the back of the manual/driver cd sleeve, they should put a large advert/offer for nV branded shutterglasses.
Even if only one in a hundred people buy them, that's a whole crapload of cash & publicity for nV from an outlay of a couple of pennies worth of plastic and paper in each box.
I've been using the stereo drivers for a while now, and recently had to raid the local video store for all of it's old 3d anaglyph specs, because as soon as anyone asks "got anything cool on your pc?" I fire up UT2k3 or Dawn of war with stereo on, and in SECONDS they want to get their rig to "do that", too.
There is a great amount to be made from this, so please, if any nV employees read this, think about it, and pass it on! ;)
I think nVidia are being rather naive over the massive potential for marketing their hardware based on what, in reality, would cost pennies per boxed retail item. I absolutely love my nvid GFX cards, and have since the TNT2/GF256. The only problem is, while you get better frame rates and stability from nV cards compared to the ATI equivalents, the average punter on the street won't look up the relevant info / performance comparisons/driver support before buying. (we all will, but we're not the average buyer.)
What i'm trying to put forward is that most gfx cards around do basically the same thing. In different ways, with subtly different results, but essentially the same thing.
If nVidia took the small outlay on sorting the stereo drivers out and chucking a cheap card/plastic set of anaglyph specs in the box with the card, their product would immediately have a massive advantage over the competition - it now, very publicly, and easily, does something no other brand can claim to.
Then, on the back of the manual/driver cd sleeve, they should put a large advert/offer for nV branded shutterglasses.
Even if only one in a hundred people buy them, that's a whole crapload of cash & publicity for nV from an outlay of a couple of pennies worth of plastic and paper in each box.
I've been using the stereo drivers for a while now, and recently had to raid the local video store for all of it's old 3d anaglyph specs, because as soon as anyone asks "got anything cool on your pc?" I fire up UT2k3 or Dawn of war with stereo on, and in SECONDS they want to get their rig to "do that", too.
There is a great amount to be made from this, so please, if any nV employees read this, think about it, and pass it on! ;)
Hello everybody,
I'm stereo addicted since Elsa's 3D Revelator came out, and I support your idea to get stereo drivers open source.
I'm not a programmer, but I can do testing like I did in the last years since Elsa's first drivers and then all Nvidias drivers.
For me Stereo 3D gaming is the only way to enjoy a game. If a game doesn't run well in stereo, I don't play it. It's just that simple.
M.
it really is a pity none of all this will make it to nVidia´s management. It also is a shame for 3D gaming to be on the way out. One of the famous "missed opportunities", I guess. I´ve been lurking around these forums for a while now and have been using nVidia´s 3D drivers since I got my ELSA Revelators back in 2001.
I simply never undestood why nVidia never exploited the "unique selling point" (intentional marketing bubble) of their 3D drivers. Back in 2001, a CRT with anything approaching a decent vSync rate was next to unaffordable; I bought my current Iiyama HM514 Pro (a 22" 142kHz Monster) for 250 Euro last year - 10% of it´s price tag in 2003...Elsa Revelators go for 10 Euros (shipping included) @eBay...3D gaming has never been as impressive and affordable.
However, from what I read all over, I gather:
the 3D drivers only have been patched in a slapdash way since 78.01 release. Mostly without any success. I am still using these with my 6600GT since the newer releases seem to be all trash. Like everyone in this forum, I´d love to get my hands on a 8800GTX (and would have the means to buy one) - but since DX10 seems to be the end of the unified driver architecture, I doubt very much that we´ll ever see 3D drivers for this card. Which means I won´t buy one.
As for driver development in general, there seems to be a trend with hardware vendors: reviews tend to be very forgiving about driver issues (...since the drivers were still beta, blabla...). Once the consumer finds out that the drivers are still basically beta one year later - well, they bought the product already, right? goal achived.
No need to have all those pesky tech people around - they´re just expensive. And demanding. That´s the story how the management sees it. In the long run, this will ruin a company's credibility and it [i]will[/i] affect sales. But management nowadays isn´t about long term strategies, is it?
if it was, nVidia would:
hire driver developers - they´re a rare bunch and [i]they[/i] make or break a product. nVidia wants to sell its 680i chipset. It needs new GPU drivers for Vista (not that this OS will be an issue in the near future). It badly needs to update existing GPU drivers. And how about fully supporting Linux? - in the long run, this will become an issue, too.
And [i]if[/i] any of them become idle, how about an overhaul of the stereo drivers while we are at it?
but the way things are going, it looks more like nVidia will go the way of creative (formerly known for their sound blaster products, if anyone cares) and, ultimately, the Dodo. The hardware engineers are coming up with products that would have huge potential - but since it´s the software that makes them tick and there aren´t enough programmers to do this software it all gets stuck halfway. Happens a few times and it earns you a reputation.
It really is a pity none of this makes it to the management... /geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' /> - a thing of the past?
it really is a pity none of all this will make it to nVidia´s management. It also is a shame for 3D gaming to be on the way out. One of the famous "missed opportunities", I guess. I´ve been lurking around these forums for a while now and have been using nVidia´s 3D drivers since I got my ELSA Revelators back in 2001.
I simply never undestood why nVidia never exploited the "unique selling point" (intentional marketing bubble) of their 3D drivers. Back in 2001, a CRT with anything approaching a decent vSync rate was next to unaffordable; I bought my current Iiyama HM514 Pro (a 22" 142kHz Monster) for 250 Euro last year - 10% of it´s price tag in 2003...Elsa Revelators go for 10 Euros (shipping included) @eBay...3D gaming has never been as impressive and affordable.
However, from what I read all over, I gather:
the 3D drivers only have been patched in a slapdash way since 78.01 release. Mostly without any success. I am still using these with my 6600GT since the newer releases seem to be all trash. Like everyone in this forum, I´d love to get my hands on a 8800GTX (and would have the means to buy one) - but since DX10 seems to be the end of the unified driver architecture, I doubt very much that we´ll ever see 3D drivers for this card. Which means I won´t buy one.
As for driver development in general, there seems to be a trend with hardware vendors: reviews tend to be very forgiving about driver issues (...since the drivers were still beta, blabla...). Once the consumer finds out that the drivers are still basically beta one year later - well, they bought the product already, right? goal achived.
No need to have all those pesky tech people around - they´re just expensive. And demanding. That´s the story how the management sees it. In the long run, this will ruin a company's credibility and it will affect sales. But management nowadays isn´t about long term strategies, is it?
if it was, nVidia would:
hire driver developers - they´re a rare bunch and they make or break a product. nVidia wants to sell its 680i chipset. It needs new GPU drivers for Vista (not that this OS will be an issue in the near future). It badly needs to update existing GPU drivers. And how about fully supporting Linux? - in the long run, this will become an issue, too.
And if any of them become idle, how about an overhaul of the stereo drivers while we are at it?
but the way things are going, it looks more like nVidia will go the way of creative (formerly known for their sound blaster products, if anyone cares) and, ultimately, the Dodo. The hardware engineers are coming up with products that would have huge potential - but since it´s the software that makes them tick and there aren´t enough programmers to do this software it all gets stuck halfway. Happens a few times and it earns you a reputation.
It really is a pity none of this makes it to the management...
/geek.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':geek:' /> - a thing of the past?
I don't think we have the "right" to demand the stereo drivers to be made open source..... I mean nvidia bought elsa and surely paid some money and since they are offering their stereo drivers for free there is not much to complain about concerning that issue......
I think the reason why support and development might be so poor is the fact that almost 9 out of 10 people never experienced stereo 3d...... If there is no demand nothing (or not much) is going to change.....
But it could even be worse.... this is what an ATI-employee has to say about ATI not supporting stereo 3d at all:
[quote]Hi Spud,
This was supposed to be a Multimedia forum, but seems you really want an ATI answer. Well, stereo in general is a FireGL feature, where the application has to support it. The reason behind this is that two different pictures have to be rendered and the frama buffer has to support quad-buffering.
With Radeon, there simply is no out-of-the box stereo support. Nvidia has it, because a small company in Germany, ELSA implemented it for their stereo shutter glasses (ELSA Revelator) and when they stopped development of HW and drivers, NVidia picked it up. I worked for that company that time...
So this is not much of answer, but at least you got one of an "ATI-dude".
What do you need it for? Gaming or some other application? It works for example in MAX and Alias Studio as far as I know.
When I worked at the Games Convention this year, a company dropped by who used a prism mask on any TFT. It worked very well and didn't require any HW interface. I could try to dig their address up, if you're interested...
When I first saw 3D stereo for games it was too early from the technical standpoint. It was in the ages of TNT2 and first GeForce 256s. Most Monitors couldn't handle the required 140 or even 160 Hz and games performance really suffered from stereo rendering. So mostly you had to go back to 800x600. Nowadays we would have enough performance to run almost any game at 10x7 with acceptable frame rates, but a whole lot of people use stereo-incpmpliant flat panels. So again it's a small amount of people interested in 3D stereo. But considering the rendering power we have now, we should re-think supporting it, you're right.
__________________
Cheers,
Mike - Product Marketing Manager
ATi Multimedia[/quote]
I already started some initiatives to make stereo 3d more popular with threads like this one : [url="http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=124355"]http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=124355[/url]
I think if we get enough people showing true interest in some changes (maybe by using this thread here as our base) I could contact nvidia relating to this thread and tell them our point of view.......
Some opinions on that would be nice......
I don't think we have the "right" to demand the stereo drivers to be made open source..... I mean nvidia bought elsa and surely paid some money and since they are offering their stereo drivers for free there is not much to complain about concerning that issue......
I think the reason why support and development might be so poor is the fact that almost 9 out of 10 people never experienced stereo 3d...... If there is no demand nothing (or not much) is going to change.....
But it could even be worse.... this is what an ATI-employee has to say about ATI not supporting stereo 3d at all:
I already started some initiatives to make stereo 3d more popular with threads like this one : http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=124355
I think if we get enough people showing true interest in some changes (maybe by using this thread here as our base) I could contact nvidia relating to this thread and tell them our point of view.......
Some opinions on that would be nice......
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)
Check out our mods at
moddb or the SPS Homepage
I sure would like to see this happen. There's not much to add I guess except maybe for one thing that hasn't been mentioned: DLP.
Yes, stereo-incompatible TFT monitors are very popular now, which is bad for the demand for stereo. However, DLP projectors are (as far as I know) probably the best thing that happened to stereo in years: they are just perfect for the job and growing in popularity. This might just be the right time to start marketing stereo3d. Oh, and HMD's are getting better too :P
And...wasn't IBM working on an affordable passive-stereo DLP based rear projection TV?
Geert
I sure would like to see this happen. There's not much to add I guess except maybe for one thing that hasn't been mentioned: DLP.
Yes, stereo-incompatible TFT monitors are very popular now, which is bad for the demand for stereo. However, DLP projectors are (as far as I know) probably the best thing that happened to stereo in years: they are just perfect for the job and growing in popularity. This might just be the right time to start marketing stereo3d. Oh, and HMD's are getting better too :P
And...wasn't IBM working on an affordable passive-stereo DLP based rear projection TV?
Geert
What i'm trying to put forward is that most gfx cards around do basically the same thing. In different ways, with subtly different results, but essentially the same thing.
If nVidia took the small outlay on sorting the stereo drivers out and chucking a cheap card/plastic set of anaglyph specs in the box with the card, their product would immediately have a massive advantage over the competition - it now, very publicly, and easily, does something no other brand can claim to.
Then, on the back of the manual/driver cd sleeve, they should put a large advert/offer for nV branded shutterglasses.
Even if only one in a hundred people buy them, that's a whole crapload of cash & publicity for nV from an outlay of a couple of pennies worth of plastic and paper in each box.
I've been using the stereo drivers for a while now, and recently had to raid the local video store for all of it's old 3d anaglyph specs, because as soon as anyone asks "got anything cool on your pc?" I fire up UT2k3 or Dawn of war with stereo on, and in SECONDS they want to get their rig to "do that", too.
There is a great amount to be made from this, so please, if any nV employees read this, think about it, and pass it on! ;)
What i'm trying to put forward is that most gfx cards around do basically the same thing. In different ways, with subtly different results, but essentially the same thing.
If nVidia took the small outlay on sorting the stereo drivers out and chucking a cheap card/plastic set of anaglyph specs in the box with the card, their product would immediately have a massive advantage over the competition - it now, very publicly, and easily, does something no other brand can claim to.
Then, on the back of the manual/driver cd sleeve, they should put a large advert/offer for nV branded shutterglasses.
Even if only one in a hundred people buy them, that's a whole crapload of cash & publicity for nV from an outlay of a couple of pennies worth of plastic and paper in each box.
I've been using the stereo drivers for a while now, and recently had to raid the local video store for all of it's old 3d anaglyph specs, because as soon as anyone asks "got anything cool on your pc?" I fire up UT2k3 or Dawn of war with stereo on, and in SECONDS they want to get their rig to "do that", too.
There is a great amount to be made from this, so please, if any nV employees read this, think about it, and pass it on! ;)
I'm stereo addicted since Elsa's 3D Revelator came out, and I support your idea to get stereo drivers open source.
I'm not a programmer, but I can do testing like I did in the last years since Elsa's first drivers and then all Nvidias drivers.
For me Stereo 3D gaming is the only way to enjoy a game. If a game doesn't run well in stereo, I don't play it. It's just that simple.
M.
I'm stereo addicted since Elsa's 3D Revelator came out, and I support your idea to get stereo drivers open source.
I'm not a programmer, but I can do testing like I did in the last years since Elsa's first drivers and then all Nvidias drivers.
For me Stereo 3D gaming is the only way to enjoy a game. If a game doesn't run well in stereo, I don't play it. It's just that simple.
M.
it really is a pity none of all this will make it to nVidia´s management. It also is a shame for 3D gaming to be on the way out. One of the famous "missed opportunities", I guess. I´ve been lurking around these forums for a while now and have been using nVidia´s 3D drivers since I got my ELSA Revelators back in 2001.
I simply never undestood why nVidia never exploited the "unique selling point" (intentional marketing bubble) of their 3D drivers. Back in 2001, a CRT with anything approaching a decent vSync rate was next to unaffordable; I bought my current Iiyama HM514 Pro (a 22" 142kHz Monster) for 250 Euro last year - 10% of it´s price tag in 2003...Elsa Revelators go for 10 Euros (shipping included) @eBay...3D gaming has never been as impressive and affordable.
However, from what I read all over, I gather:
the 3D drivers only have been patched in a slapdash way since 78.01 release. Mostly without any success. I am still using these with my 6600GT since the newer releases seem to be all trash. Like everyone in this forum, I´d love to get my hands on a 8800GTX (and would have the means to buy one) - but since DX10 seems to be the end of the unified driver architecture, I doubt very much that we´ll ever see 3D drivers for this card. Which means I won´t buy one.
As for driver development in general, there seems to be a trend with hardware vendors: reviews tend to be very forgiving about driver issues (...since the drivers were still beta, blabla...). Once the consumer finds out that the drivers are still basically beta one year later - well, they bought the product already, right? goal achived.
No need to have all those pesky tech people around - they´re just expensive. And demanding. That´s the story how the management sees it. In the long run, this will ruin a company's credibility and it [i]will[/i] affect sales. But management nowadays isn´t about long term strategies, is it?
if it was, nVidia would:
hire driver developers - they´re a rare bunch and [i]they[/i] make or break a product. nVidia wants to sell its 680i chipset. It needs new GPU drivers for Vista (not that this OS will be an issue in the near future). It badly needs to update existing GPU drivers. And how about fully supporting Linux? - in the long run, this will become an issue, too.
And [i]if[/i] any of them become idle, how about an overhaul of the stereo drivers while we are at it?
but the way things are going, it looks more like nVidia will go the way of creative (formerly known for their sound blaster products, if anyone cares) and, ultimately, the Dodo. The hardware engineers are coming up with products that would have huge potential - but since it´s the software that makes them tick and there aren´t enough programmers to do this software it all gets stuck halfway. Happens a few times and it earns you a reputation.
It really is a pity none of this makes it to the management...
it really is a pity none of all this will make it to nVidia´s management. It also is a shame for 3D gaming to be on the way out. One of the famous "missed opportunities", I guess. I´ve been lurking around these forums for a while now and have been using nVidia´s 3D drivers since I got my ELSA Revelators back in 2001.
I simply never undestood why nVidia never exploited the "unique selling point" (intentional marketing bubble) of their 3D drivers. Back in 2001, a CRT with anything approaching a decent vSync rate was next to unaffordable; I bought my current Iiyama HM514 Pro (a 22" 142kHz Monster) for 250 Euro last year - 10% of it´s price tag in 2003...Elsa Revelators go for 10 Euros (shipping included) @eBay...3D gaming has never been as impressive and affordable.
However, from what I read all over, I gather:
the 3D drivers only have been patched in a slapdash way since 78.01 release. Mostly without any success. I am still using these with my 6600GT since the newer releases seem to be all trash. Like everyone in this forum, I´d love to get my hands on a 8800GTX (and would have the means to buy one) - but since DX10 seems to be the end of the unified driver architecture, I doubt very much that we´ll ever see 3D drivers for this card. Which means I won´t buy one.
As for driver development in general, there seems to be a trend with hardware vendors: reviews tend to be very forgiving about driver issues (...since the drivers were still beta, blabla...). Once the consumer finds out that the drivers are still basically beta one year later - well, they bought the product already, right? goal achived.
No need to have all those pesky tech people around - they´re just expensive. And demanding. That´s the story how the management sees it. In the long run, this will ruin a company's credibility and it will affect sales. But management nowadays isn´t about long term strategies, is it?
if it was, nVidia would:
hire driver developers - they´re a rare bunch and they make or break a product. nVidia wants to sell its 680i chipset. It needs new GPU drivers for Vista (not that this OS will be an issue in the near future). It badly needs to update existing GPU drivers. And how about fully supporting Linux? - in the long run, this will become an issue, too.
And if any of them become idle, how about an overhaul of the stereo drivers while we are at it?
but the way things are going, it looks more like nVidia will go the way of creative (formerly known for their sound blaster products, if anyone cares) and, ultimately, the Dodo. The hardware engineers are coming up with products that would have huge potential - but since it´s the software that makes them tick and there aren´t enough programmers to do this software it all gets stuck halfway. Happens a few times and it earns you a reputation.
It really is a pity none of this makes it to the management...
Just registered, only to sign up this petition.
I would participate on such a project with my programming skills, some effort and some money. An open Source project would be just great.
bye Toc
Just registered, only to sign up this petition.
I would participate on such a project with my programming skills, some effort and some money. An open Source project would be just great.
bye Toc