Why prevent us from using the monitor of our choice?
4 / 8
[quote="chiz1"]
So finally, I must ask again. Did you really purchase these displays and test them or are you just [/quote]
Hm, yes, what do you think (oh I know, I'm trolling allthough I don't know what I wrote to make you think so) Anyway, let me try imageshack for the first time, hope it works:
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/dsc00142f.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img22/5268/dsc00142f.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/dsc00146el.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img818/1699/dsc00146el.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
and a Zoom in, first the Acer
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/acer3dtest.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img402/5649/acer3dtest.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
now the HannsG
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/hannsg3dtest.jpg/][IMG]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5695/hannsg3dtest.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
All pictures made with the same camera settings, same gfx board, same cable.... and it's not the output as screenshots render fine.
I think this should make pretty evident, what I'm talking about. And - allthaugh it may be asked too much concluding your continuing doubting me - I still ask you trust me: it's the same in desktop environments...
chiz1 said:
So finally, I must ask again. Did you really purchase these displays and test them or are you just
Hm, yes, what do you think (oh I know, I'm trolling allthough I don't know what I wrote to make you think so) Anyway, let me try imageshack for the first time, hope it works:
and a Zoom in, first the Acer
now the HannsG
All pictures made with the same camera settings, same gfx board, same cable.... and it's not the output as screenshots render fine.
I think this should make pretty evident, what I'm talking about. And - allthaugh it may be asked too much concluding your continuing doubting me - I still ask you trust me: it's the same in desktop environments...
Unless I'm misinterpreting something the Acer looks awful.
With the Hanns display I have more trouble pinpointing any problem.
Both photos are taken i 3D mode capturing about 1/60 of a second.
Flugan: Updated with zoom ins. That's what I said: the HannsG does NOT suffer that problem (as the Sammy RZ2233) while Acer and Asus 278[b]HE[/b] do (unfortunately Ijhave not takien hotos of the later before returning it.
And concerning the Acer: it would be retarded returning that monitor when purchased at a 40% discount, if it would offer halfway acceptable performance, right?
Even so it must be noted that the Acer is IMO the better monitor as the Asus has a) accentuated screen door effect and b) sufers baaad backlightbleeding of the edge lit LEDs on top and botttom...
Flugan: Updated with zoom ins. That's what I said: the HannsG does NOT suffer that problem (as the Sammy RZ2233) while Acer and Asus 278HE do (unfortunately Ijhave not takien hotos of the later before returning it.
And concerning the Acer: it would be retarded returning that monitor when purchased at a 40% discount, if it would offer halfway acceptable performance, right?
Even so it must be noted that the Acer is IMO the better monitor as the Asus has a) accentuated screen door effect and b) sufers baaad backlightbleeding of the edge lit LEDs on top and botttom...
[quote="quadrophoeniX"][quote="chiz1"]
So finally, I must ask again. Did you really purchase these displays and test them or are you just [/quote]
Hm, yes, what do you think (oh I know, I'm trolling allthough I don't know what I wrote to make you think so) Anyway, let me try imageshack for the first time, hope it works:
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/dsc00142f.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img22/5268/dsc00142f.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/dsc00146el.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img818/1699/dsc00146el.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
and a Zoom in, first the Acer
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/acer3dtest.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img402/5649/acer3dtest.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
now the HannsG
[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/hannsg3dtest.jpg/][IMG]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5695/hannsg3dtest.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
All pictures made with the same camera settings, same gfx board, same cable.... and it's not the output as screenshots render fine.
I think this should make pretty evident, what I'm talking about. And - allthaugh it may be asked too much concluding your continuing doubting me - I still ask you trust me: it's the same in desktop environments...
[/quote]
That's not checkerboard and you still haven't responded to your claim that these panels can't do 120Hz @ 1080p.
Those are just the 3 tft pixels, red, green and blue at overly high sharpness/contrast settings. It looks like the out-of-box settings for sharpness and pixel color saturation are off. You probably could've fixed the above problems by simply changing a preset or tinkering with OSD settings. Neither of my panels looked good out-of-the box, but then again, I've never had a panel look good without adjustment except for a few Dell Ultrasharps.
Nothing to see here, just more user error.
chiz1 said:
So finally, I must ask again. Did you really purchase these displays and test them or are you just
Hm, yes, what do you think (oh I know, I'm trolling allthough I don't know what I wrote to make you think so) Anyway, let me try imageshack for the first time, hope it works:
and a Zoom in, first the Acer
now the HannsG
All pictures made with the same camera settings, same gfx board, same cable.... and it's not the output as screenshots render fine.
I think this should make pretty evident, what I'm talking about. And - allthaugh it may be asked too much concluding your continuing doubting me - I still ask you trust me: it's the same in desktop environments...
That's not checkerboard and you still haven't responded to your claim that these panels can't do 120Hz @ 1080p.
Those are just the 3 tft pixels, red, green and blue at overly high sharpness/contrast settings. It looks like the out-of-box settings for sharpness and pixel color saturation are off. You probably could've fixed the above problems by simply changing a preset or tinkering with OSD settings. Neither of my panels looked good out-of-the box, but then again, I've never had a panel look good without adjustment except for a few Dell Ultrasharps.
No matter what it is, it is NOT 1080p but, as said I already gave up on you and me ever to agree and definitely I am going to quit here.
You don't believe me, don't believe I am actually knowing what I'm doing, and even don't believe both tests were performed with the same settings and I tried everything possible to make the effect go away or at least acceptable and so me to keep those monitors. (actually [i]I[/i] do believe that [i]you[/i] do believe I am even cheating those tests.
That's fine, I am no troll, I am tired, not bored that's a huge difference. So this is going to be my last post, unless somebody else asks for more information. My intention was to create awarenes of what manufacturers try to sell you as good technology what in fact it isn't. I wanted to give out a warning to everybody interested not to relive my dissapointment and as repeatedly pronounced this is not the blame of nvidia here, it's just what currently does cause [b][i]me[/i][/b] not want to use 3Dvision and I would reconsider with more monitors (e.g. threadnamegiving Sammy) supported.
hasta la vista, baby, live long and prosper, good night and good luck, over and out....
No matter what it is, it is NOT 1080p but, as said I already gave up on you and me ever to agree and definitely I am going to quit here.
You don't believe me, don't believe I am actually knowing what I'm doing, and even don't believe both tests were performed with the same settings and I tried everything possible to make the effect go away or at least acceptable and so me to keep those monitors. (actually I do believe that you do believe I am even cheating those tests.
That's fine, I am no troll, I am tired, not bored that's a huge difference. So this is going to be my last post, unless somebody else asks for more information. My intention was to create awarenes of what manufacturers try to sell you as good technology what in fact it isn't. I wanted to give out a warning to everybody interested not to relive my dissapointment and as repeatedly pronounced this is not the blame of nvidia here, it's just what currently does cause me not want to use 3Dvision and I would reconsider with more monitors (e.g. threadnamegiving Sammy) supported.
hasta la vista, baby, live long and prosper, good night and good luck, over and out....
Sorry to resurrect the topic.
The photos you have posted are of lower resolution than the monitor itself. i.e. less than 1080p.
What I'm aiming at that what is shown in the pictures are clearly not separate parts of TFT pixels but rather completely different pixels not behaving as expecting if it was indeed 1080p.
As you are the only one here with significant experience with the two monitor models in question there is little for me to add except a gasp that such displays exists.
I am glad that you were able to present such clear proof as it is actually hard to believe that it is true at all which it unfortunatelly is.
This is my interpretation of the situation and I'm obviously not in a position to clarify anything further without having seen the monitor myself.
Unless someone with either of these models can extensively prove you wrong you will remain the authoritive source on this topic. It is not something I expect to turn up in reviews as the results are so unexpected that you would not test for it.
The photos you have posted are of lower resolution than the monitor itself. i.e. less than 1080p.
What I'm aiming at that what is shown in the pictures are clearly not separate parts of TFT pixels but rather completely different pixels not behaving as expecting if it was indeed 1080p.
As you are the only one here with significant experience with the two monitor models in question there is little for me to add except a gasp that such displays exists.
I am glad that you were able to present such clear proof as it is actually hard to believe that it is true at all which it unfortunatelly is.
This is my interpretation of the situation and I'm obviously not in a position to clarify anything further without having seen the monitor myself.
Unless someone with either of these models can extensively prove you wrong you will remain the authoritive source on this topic. It is not something I expect to turn up in reviews as the results are so unexpected that you would not test for it.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
I call shenanigans. Something just isn't right.
My assumption would be that the EDID of the Display was not being read right or was corrupted.
Or, that there was a second monitor connected that was disallowing the higher resolution and refresh rate.
Perhaps the ID pins in your card or cable are bad.
The one picture looks like it's vertical interleaved and does not look like any checkerboard or interleave 3D Display that I have seen.
I just find it hard to believe that you had problems with 2 different monitors while users have not reported similar issues anywhere I looked. Something in your chain is not functioning properly imho.
I however do not question your 3D knowledge or experience, just kinda wonder more along the lines of what the hell produced those picture quality issues.
My assumption would be that the EDID of the Display was not being read right or was corrupted.
Or, that there was a second monitor connected that was disallowing the higher resolution and refresh rate.
Perhaps the ID pins in your card or cable are bad.
The one picture looks like it's vertical interleaved and does not look like any checkerboard or interleave 3D Display that I have seen.
I just find it hard to believe that you had problems with 2 different monitors while users have not reported similar issues anywhere I looked. Something in your chain is not functioning properly imho.
I however do not question your 3D knowledge or experience, just kinda wonder more along the lines of what the hell produced those picture quality issues.
[quote="quadrophoeniX"]No matter what it is, it is NOT 1080p but, as said I already gave up on you and me ever to agree and definitely I am going to quit here.
You don't believe me, don't believe I am actually knowing what I'm doing, and even don't believe both tests were performed with the same settings and I tried everything possible to make the effect go away or at least acceptable and so me to keep those monitors. (actually [i]I[/i] do believe that [i]you[/i] do believe I am even cheating those tests.
That's fine, I am no troll, I am tired, not bored that's a huge difference. So this is going to be my last post, unless somebody else asks for more information. My intention was to create awarenes of what manufacturers try to sell you as good technology what in fact it isn't. I wanted to give out a warning to everybody interested not to relive my dissapointment and as repeatedly pronounced this is not the blame of nvidia here, it's just what currently does cause [b][i]me[/i][/b] not want to use 3Dvision and I would reconsider with more monitors (e.g. threadnamegiving Sammy) supported.
hasta la vista, baby, live long and prosper, good night and good luck, over and out....[/quote]
Wrong. It is 1080p, both of those panels support 1080p FS 3D and output 120+Hz in 2D. Please stop spreading such blatant misinformation simply because you don't know how to calibrate monitor settings.
I just tested and verified on my own panel, your results are easily reproduced by simply changing Sharpness to max and increasing Brightness and Contrast. Anyone with an LCD can do the same, you're simply seeing the RGB subpixels because they're not filling the entire pixel with color due to the increased sharpness setting.
And no I don't think you're cheating those results, I just don't think you know how to calibrate a monitor. Either both of those monitors came with horrible out of the box presets for you or you have a great eye for toggling terrible 3D settings.
quadrophoeniX said:No matter what it is, it is NOT 1080p but, as said I already gave up on you and me ever to agree and definitely I am going to quit here.
You don't believe me, don't believe I am actually knowing what I'm doing, and even don't believe both tests were performed with the same settings and I tried everything possible to make the effect go away or at least acceptable and so me to keep those monitors. (actually I do believe that you do believe I am even cheating those tests.
That's fine, I am no troll, I am tired, not bored that's a huge difference. So this is going to be my last post, unless somebody else asks for more information. My intention was to create awarenes of what manufacturers try to sell you as good technology what in fact it isn't. I wanted to give out a warning to everybody interested not to relive my dissapointment and as repeatedly pronounced this is not the blame of nvidia here, it's just what currently does cause me not want to use 3Dvision and I would reconsider with more monitors (e.g. threadnamegiving Sammy) supported.
hasta la vista, baby, live long and prosper, good night and good luck, over and out....
Wrong. It is 1080p, both of those panels support 1080p FS 3D and output 120+Hz in 2D. Please stop spreading such blatant misinformation simply because you don't know how to calibrate monitor settings.
I just tested and verified on my own panel, your results are easily reproduced by simply changing Sharpness to max and increasing Brightness and Contrast. Anyone with an LCD can do the same, you're simply seeing the RGB subpixels because they're not filling the entire pixel with color due to the increased sharpness setting.
And no I don't think you're cheating those results, I just don't think you know how to calibrate a monitor. Either both of those monitors came with horrible out of the box presets for you or you have a great eye for toggling terrible 3D settings.
Im not a "display guru" but..
3D isnt interlaced. Its checkerboard. Isnt his argument that his picture of the 3d image is interlaced? Even if that was a 2D image of interlaced, displays interlaced go left to right. Not top to bottom. But since its a picture of 3D it should be checkerboard. Which would just seem like individual pixels? Wouldnt a checkerboard 3D image seem like a 2D image when photographed? It would have same amount of pixels.
Admitedly I am not a display person, is what I said right? Id like to know because I accept I could be wrong and would like to know. I couldnt find a good image of a zoomed in display of checkerboard 3D.
Im not a "display guru" but..
3D isnt interlaced. Its checkerboard. Isnt his argument that his picture of the 3d image is interlaced? Even if that was a 2D image of interlaced, displays interlaced go left to right. Not top to bottom. But since its a picture of 3D it should be checkerboard. Which would just seem like individual pixels? Wouldnt a checkerboard 3D image seem like a 2D image when photographed? It would have same amount of pixels.
Admitedly I am not a display person, is what I said right? Id like to know because I accept I could be wrong and would like to know. I couldnt find a good image of a zoomed in display of checkerboard 3D.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
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His argument was that the signal leaving the computer was correct and that a circuit in the monitor was destroying the image both in 2D and 3D. He mentioned CB but the images can not prove CB. It is impossible to tell 2D behavior from an image of 3D but he mentioned multiple times that just moving windows around with high contrast to the background made the problem visible.
There might be circumstances that make him extremely unlucky and the issue is not really widely reported but then with 3D being such a niche I wouldn't expect the 27" 3D Vision monitors that has tested to be widely used.
Is this CB or checkerboard?
Most likely neither but that doesn't make the problem disappear.
His argument was that the signal leaving the computer was correct and that a circuit in the monitor was destroying the image both in 2D and 3D. He mentioned CB but the images can not prove CB. It is impossible to tell 2D behavior from an image of 3D but he mentioned multiple times that just moving windows around with high contrast to the background made the problem visible.
There might be circumstances that make him extremely unlucky and the issue is not really widely reported but then with 3D being such a niche I wouldn't expect the 27" 3D Vision monitors that has tested to be widely used.
Is this CB or checkerboard?
Most likely neither but that doesn't make the problem disappear.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
So first of all, thank to all of you who at least put a little faith in my statements. For you willing to follow this thesis I stress I couldn't believe it either and performed tests intensive and careful as possible.
I have to gibve in a little bit though: as the Acer incident is a couple of weeks ago I asumed it was [i]exactly[/i] the same problem as with the Asus. In fact it is not. The Acer indeed primarily suffers a [i]vertical resolution problem[/i] as proven by the photos (which were btw taken with higher resolution than 1080p and also of coursse with exposure to cover at least 2 successive frames. I asume its just Imageshack resuizing them.
Also after researching my buffled findings I found I am by far the first nor only one to experience complain and despair as e.g. can be read [url=http://3dvision-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1945&hilit=Acer+resolution]here[/url].
Yes, I could have investigated beforehand, but who would expect such a flawed product?
When initially experiencing the problem the first thing I checked was the proper enries in device manager and s3D control panel, which both clearly showed the correct model. Regard- and fruitlessly I tried reloading the .inf files.
Then the Acer (contrary to the Asus) also has a HDMI1.4[b]a[/b] input, beside 2D signals also accepting 3DTVPlay - the symptom is here as persistent as on the VGA input which is limited to 1080p/60Hz. To make sure the 2Dmode is affected as well, I rebooted in 2D mode after disabling S3D.
Same tests were performed with the Asus, where the HDMI (due lack of integrated 3D glasses) is limited to HDMI1.4. You could enable 3DTV play in the panel, however, a framepacked signal will give you an out of range message 1080p@60 is all you can get. Also here even without USB emitter (so clearly a 2D mode) the symptom can be notified on all 3 inputs.
And yes, I tested with those monitors being the ONLY display and tried several [u]dual link[/u] DVI cables. In fact in all tests repeated with the HannsG the only difference on the very same setup was the monitor itself.
Also, before requesting a return ticket with Amazon I checked on my office PC equipped with an GTX 285 (the PC my Sammy RZ2233 is normally hooked up to also not showing this effect). Due to the results I could not even encourage any of my colleagues to purchase the monitor without glasses for 200,- from me... (200,- for a brand new 27" turned down!)
As no EDID modifying was ever performed on either machine, 2 monitors suffer the prob while 2 others don't for me rules out the option of a corrupted EDID which on top is generatede by the monitor hardware, so without deliberately fumbling around with it cannot be corrupted unless the hardware itself is defective.
3D as per nvidia's 3Dvision is 2 parallax corrected alternating frames at 100 or more fps with [i]full resolution[/i]. No checker board (= CB), vertical or horizontal interleaving involved. The HannsG ands Sammy clearly show and prove that: viewing or photograpphing the S3D test pattern without glasses shows homogeneous ghostpictures with full panel resolution while on Acer 274 and Asus 278HE the resolution is undoubtly compromised.
Watching/photographing a [i]still[/i] content on the monitore will in fact give the impression odf a full HD res, but things gett messy in movement and 3D. It muist be stated that in 3D when watched with glasses the effect is far less prominent as the brain merges the 2 frames for each eye and so performes some kind of "biological" deinterlacing. This is were Acer and Asus apparently have placed their bet's on: that the average user is too unexperienced with 3D to ever notice.
If it [i]was[/i] just in 3D mode I would even have considered keeping the screen (300,- incl. 3DVision 2 glasses is not a bad deal still) but with 2D being affected as well this was clearly surpassing the boundaries of my benevolence as it makes these displays even unsuited for sophisticated multimedia purposes of any kind.
As my fierce hypercritc here has doubted I actually even had these monitors for testing, allthough I don't know how to justify that without having any kind of contradicting evidence at hand himself, I casn advise how to reproduce the problem and test fpoor yourself. So, if somebody here has access to either of these monitors and just dragging a window around the desktop doesn't make suspicious enough for a more evident prove do the following:
Prepare a small test video on a USB stick that can be launched by Media Player, VNC, Quicktime, or the player of your choice. First create 2 frames with homogenous color and high contrast (e.g. one black one white) with irfan view or similar. They don't neccessarily have full HD resolution as this will make things more comnplicated and the problem shows as good in windowed mode as stetched to full screen (which even more clearly proves that the problem lies on the panel driver domain). So make it 720 or even 640x360. With a video editor of your choice create s short clip with thesae 2 frames alternating at 60fps, repeated copy and paste action will speed up the process. Save to a USB stick with a non-install video player. Goo to your friends place or the next electronic superstore, fire up the video and witness the amazing results.
This was the last test that I did that asured me for good of the flaw being within the monitor itself.
On the HannsG or any 2D/3D fullHD display you will see a homogenous grey bacjkground, now somebody please go otu, do the test and report here...
So first of all, thank to all of you who at least put a little faith in my statements. For you willing to follow this thesis I stress I couldn't believe it either and performed tests intensive and careful as possible.
I have to gibve in a little bit though: as the Acer incident is a couple of weeks ago I asumed it was exactly the same problem as with the Asus. In fact it is not. The Acer indeed primarily suffers a vertical resolution problem as proven by the photos (which were btw taken with higher resolution than 1080p and also of coursse with exposure to cover at least 2 successive frames. I asume its just Imageshack resuizing them.
Also after researching my buffled findings I found I am by far the first nor only one to experience complain and despair as e.g. can be read here.
Yes, I could have investigated beforehand, but who would expect such a flawed product?
When initially experiencing the problem the first thing I checked was the proper enries in device manager and s3D control panel, which both clearly showed the correct model. Regard- and fruitlessly I tried reloading the .inf files.
Then the Acer (contrary to the Asus) also has a HDMI1.4a input, beside 2D signals also accepting 3DTVPlay - the symptom is here as persistent as on the VGA input which is limited to 1080p/60Hz. To make sure the 2Dmode is affected as well, I rebooted in 2D mode after disabling S3D.
Same tests were performed with the Asus, where the HDMI (due lack of integrated 3D glasses) is limited to HDMI1.4. You could enable 3DTV play in the panel, however, a framepacked signal will give you an out of range message 1080p@60 is all you can get. Also here even without USB emitter (so clearly a 2D mode) the symptom can be notified on all 3 inputs.
And yes, I tested with those monitors being the ONLY display and tried several dual link DVI cables. In fact in all tests repeated with the HannsG the only difference on the very same setup was the monitor itself.
Also, before requesting a return ticket with Amazon I checked on my office PC equipped with an GTX 285 (the PC my Sammy RZ2233 is normally hooked up to also not showing this effect). Due to the results I could not even encourage any of my colleagues to purchase the monitor without glasses for 200,- from me... (200,- for a brand new 27" turned down!)
As no EDID modifying was ever performed on either machine, 2 monitors suffer the prob while 2 others don't for me rules out the option of a corrupted EDID which on top is generatede by the monitor hardware, so without deliberately fumbling around with it cannot be corrupted unless the hardware itself is defective.
3D as per nvidia's 3Dvision is 2 parallax corrected alternating frames at 100 or more fps with full resolution. No checker board (= CB), vertical or horizontal interleaving involved. The HannsG ands Sammy clearly show and prove that: viewing or photograpphing the S3D test pattern without glasses shows homogeneous ghostpictures with full panel resolution while on Acer 274 and Asus 278HE the resolution is undoubtly compromised.
Watching/photographing a still content on the monitore will in fact give the impression odf a full HD res, but things gett messy in movement and 3D. It muist be stated that in 3D when watched with glasses the effect is far less prominent as the brain merges the 2 frames for each eye and so performes some kind of "biological" deinterlacing. This is were Acer and Asus apparently have placed their bet's on: that the average user is too unexperienced with 3D to ever notice.
If it was just in 3D mode I would even have considered keeping the screen (300,- incl. 3DVision 2 glasses is not a bad deal still) but with 2D being affected as well this was clearly surpassing the boundaries of my benevolence as it makes these displays even unsuited for sophisticated multimedia purposes of any kind.
As my fierce hypercritc here has doubted I actually even had these monitors for testing, allthough I don't know how to justify that without having any kind of contradicting evidence at hand himself, I casn advise how to reproduce the problem and test fpoor yourself. So, if somebody here has access to either of these monitors and just dragging a window around the desktop doesn't make suspicious enough for a more evident prove do the following:
Prepare a small test video on a USB stick that can be launched by Media Player, VNC, Quicktime, or the player of your choice. First create 2 frames with homogenous color and high contrast (e.g. one black one white) with irfan view or similar. They don't neccessarily have full HD resolution as this will make things more comnplicated and the problem shows as good in windowed mode as stetched to full screen (which even more clearly proves that the problem lies on the panel driver domain). So make it 720 or even 640x360. With a video editor of your choice create s short clip with thesae 2 frames alternating at 60fps, repeated copy and paste action will speed up the process. Save to a USB stick with a non-install video player. Goo to your friends place or the next electronic superstore, fire up the video and witness the amazing results.
This was the last test that I did that asured me for good of the flaw being within the monitor itself.
On the HannsG or any 2D/3D fullHD display you will see a homogenous grey bacjkground, now somebody please go otu, do the test and report here...
In conclusion 2/3 27" 3D Vision display models appears to be broken leaving only ASUS VG278H.
This is quite serious and I'm glad I'm a happy owner of VG278H and not currently looking for a 27" 3D Vision display as it appears to be easy to buy a broken model under such circumstances.
In conclusion 2/3 27" 3D Vision display models appears to be broken leaving only ASUS VG278H.
This is quite serious and I'm glad I'm a happy owner of VG278H and not currently looking for a 27" 3D Vision display as it appears to be easy to buy a broken model under such circumstances.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
[quote="quadrophoeniX"]...[/quote]
In summary, you incorrectly stated:
1) these monitors don't do 1080p @ 120Hz in 2D, which they do.
2) these monitors only output CB 3D @ 1080p, when that is clearly false.
Any issues you've documented relate to the quality of the screen/TFT itself and not the technology behind the 3D being used. I still think the problems you've documented are easily corrected by adjusting settings, I know for a fact I had to adjust "Sharpness" on my panel before attaining acceptable results on both the VG278H and AW2310.
And yes there's reason for skepticism because you not only made the two egregious mistakes detailed above in your early claims about 3D Vision monitors, but there's no reports about either of the two predecessor versions of these monitors exhibiting this issue. Both Acer and Asus have earlier 27" 3D Vision models that are widely lauded; it's hard to believe the slightly updated models are so far off in terms of quality.
1) these monitors don't do 1080p @ 120Hz in 2D, which they do.
2) these monitors only output CB 3D @ 1080p, when that is clearly false.
Any issues you've documented relate to the quality of the screen/TFT itself and not the technology behind the 3D being used. I still think the problems you've documented are easily corrected by adjusting settings, I know for a fact I had to adjust "Sharpness" on my panel before attaining acceptable results on both the VG278H and AW2310.
And yes there's reason for skepticism because you not only made the two egregious mistakes detailed above in your early claims about 3D Vision monitors, but there's no reports about either of the two predecessor versions of these monitors exhibiting this issue. Both Acer and Asus have earlier 27" 3D Vision models that are widely lauded; it's hard to believe the slightly updated models are so far off in terms of quality.
Flugan: as the H seems not to suffer it, what can you tell about backlight bleeding?
Btw. 3DVision blog forums has another [url=http://3dvision-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2575]thread[/url] on the Asus.... (and eqzitara even replied on this ;) )
Well guys, it looks like DirectX 11.1 will offer NATIVE Stereo 3D, using whatever tech you might have to run your games in 3D. Also, because it will be integrated straight into DX, its compatibility with games, older and newer, will be unequaled.
The info I have says that DX 11.1 is coming to Win8 before Win7, but will make it to Win7 also, contrary to the rumors which were inadvertently created from a misinformed Microsoft employee giving an interview.
Now *THAT* is the technology development we have all been waiting for. It can only be at least as good as 3D Vision (probably quite a bit better, due to one less layer of driver interference), while being even more compatible.
This means if you want to do S3D with a 3D Vision-ready monitor, and AMD graphics card, DX11.1 should make it work for you. Or a bunch of other combos...
I just can't wait.
Well guys, it looks like DirectX 11.1 will offer NATIVE Stereo 3D, using whatever tech you might have to run your games in 3D. Also, because it will be integrated straight into DX, its compatibility with games, older and newer, will be unequaled.
The info I have says that DX 11.1 is coming to Win8 before Win7, but will make it to Win7 also, contrary to the rumors which were inadvertently created from a misinformed Microsoft employee giving an interview.
Now *THAT* is the technology development we have all been waiting for. It can only be at least as good as 3D Vision (probably quite a bit better, due to one less layer of driver interference), while being even more compatible.
This means if you want to do S3D with a 3D Vision-ready monitor, and AMD graphics card, DX11.1 should make it work for you. Or a bunch of other combos...
Hm, yes, what do you think (oh I know, I'm trolling allthough I don't know what I wrote to make you think so) Anyway, let me try imageshack for the first time, hope it works:
and a Zoom in, first the Acer
now the HannsG
All pictures made with the same camera settings, same gfx board, same cable.... and it's not the output as screenshots render fine.
I think this should make pretty evident, what I'm talking about. And - allthaugh it may be asked too much concluding your continuing doubting me - I still ask you trust me: it's the same in desktop environments...
With the Hanns display I have more trouble pinpointing any problem.
Both photos are taken i 3D mode capturing about 1/60 of a second.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
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What more can you ask for?
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And concerning the Acer: it would be retarded returning that monitor when purchased at a 40% discount, if it would offer halfway acceptable performance, right?
Even so it must be noted that the Acer is IMO the better monitor as the Asus has a) accentuated screen door effect and b) sufers baaad backlightbleeding of the edge lit LEDs on top and botttom...
That's not checkerboard and you still haven't responded to your claim that these panels can't do 120Hz @ 1080p.
Those are just the 3 tft pixels, red, green and blue at overly high sharpness/contrast settings. It looks like the out-of-box settings for sharpness and pixel color saturation are off. You probably could've fixed the above problems by simply changing a preset or tinkering with OSD settings. Neither of my panels looked good out-of-the box, but then again, I've never had a panel look good without adjustment except for a few Dell Ultrasharps.
Nothing to see here, just more user error.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
You don't believe me, don't believe I am actually knowing what I'm doing, and even don't believe both tests were performed with the same settings and I tried everything possible to make the effect go away or at least acceptable and so me to keep those monitors. (actually I do believe that you do believe I am even cheating those tests.
That's fine, I am no troll, I am tired, not bored that's a huge difference. So this is going to be my last post, unless somebody else asks for more information. My intention was to create awarenes of what manufacturers try to sell you as good technology what in fact it isn't. I wanted to give out a warning to everybody interested not to relive my dissapointment and as repeatedly pronounced this is not the blame of nvidia here, it's just what currently does cause me not want to use 3Dvision and I would reconsider with more monitors (e.g. threadnamegiving Sammy) supported.
hasta la vista, baby, live long and prosper, good night and good luck, over and out....
The photos you have posted are of lower resolution than the monitor itself. i.e. less than 1080p.
What I'm aiming at that what is shown in the pictures are clearly not separate parts of TFT pixels but rather completely different pixels not behaving as expecting if it was indeed 1080p.
As you are the only one here with significant experience with the two monitor models in question there is little for me to add except a gasp that such displays exists.
I am glad that you were able to present such clear proof as it is actually hard to believe that it is true at all which it unfortunatelly is.
This is my interpretation of the situation and I'm obviously not in a position to clarify anything further without having seen the monitor myself.
Unless someone with either of these models can extensively prove you wrong you will remain the authoritive source on this topic. It is not something I expect to turn up in reviews as the results are so unexpected that you would not test for it.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
My assumption would be that the EDID of the Display was not being read right or was corrupted.
Or, that there was a second monitor connected that was disallowing the higher resolution and refresh rate.
Perhaps the ID pins in your card or cable are bad.
The one picture looks like it's vertical interleaved and does not look like any checkerboard or interleave 3D Display that I have seen.
I just find it hard to believe that you had problems with 2 different monitors while users have not reported similar issues anywhere I looked. Something in your chain is not functioning properly imho.
I however do not question your 3D knowledge or experience, just kinda wonder more along the lines of what the hell produced those picture quality issues.
Wrong. It is 1080p, both of those panels support 1080p FS 3D and output 120+Hz in 2D. Please stop spreading such blatant misinformation simply because you don't know how to calibrate monitor settings.
I just tested and verified on my own panel, your results are easily reproduced by simply changing Sharpness to max and increasing Brightness and Contrast. Anyone with an LCD can do the same, you're simply seeing the RGB subpixels because they're not filling the entire pixel with color due to the increased sharpness setting.
And no I don't think you're cheating those results, I just don't think you know how to calibrate a monitor. Either both of those monitors came with horrible out of the box presets for you or you have a great eye for toggling terrible 3D settings.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
3D isnt interlaced. Its checkerboard. Isnt his argument that his picture of the 3d image is interlaced? Even if that was a 2D image of interlaced, displays interlaced go left to right. Not top to bottom. But since its a picture of 3D it should be checkerboard. Which would just seem like individual pixels? Wouldnt a checkerboard 3D image seem like a 2D image when photographed? It would have same amount of pixels.
Admitedly I am not a display person, is what I said right? Id like to know because I accept I could be wrong and would like to know. I couldnt find a good image of a zoomed in display of checkerboard 3D.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
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There might be circumstances that make him extremely unlucky and the issue is not really widely reported but then with 3D being such a niche I wouldn't expect the 27" 3D Vision monitors that has tested to be widely used.
Is this CB or checkerboard?
Most likely neither but that doesn't make the problem disappear.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
I have to gibve in a little bit though: as the Acer incident is a couple of weeks ago I asumed it was exactly the same problem as with the Asus. In fact it is not. The Acer indeed primarily suffers a vertical resolution problem as proven by the photos (which were btw taken with higher resolution than 1080p and also of coursse with exposure to cover at least 2 successive frames. I asume its just Imageshack resuizing them.
Also after researching my buffled findings I found I am by far the first nor only one to experience complain and despair as e.g. can be read here.
Yes, I could have investigated beforehand, but who would expect such a flawed product?
When initially experiencing the problem the first thing I checked was the proper enries in device manager and s3D control panel, which both clearly showed the correct model. Regard- and fruitlessly I tried reloading the .inf files.
Then the Acer (contrary to the Asus) also has a HDMI1.4a input, beside 2D signals also accepting 3DTVPlay - the symptom is here as persistent as on the VGA input which is limited to 1080p/60Hz. To make sure the 2Dmode is affected as well, I rebooted in 2D mode after disabling S3D.
Same tests were performed with the Asus, where the HDMI (due lack of integrated 3D glasses) is limited to HDMI1.4. You could enable 3DTV play in the panel, however, a framepacked signal will give you an out of range message 1080p@60 is all you can get. Also here even without USB emitter (so clearly a 2D mode) the symptom can be notified on all 3 inputs.
And yes, I tested with those monitors being the ONLY display and tried several dual link DVI cables. In fact in all tests repeated with the HannsG the only difference on the very same setup was the monitor itself.
Also, before requesting a return ticket with Amazon I checked on my office PC equipped with an GTX 285 (the PC my Sammy RZ2233 is normally hooked up to also not showing this effect). Due to the results I could not even encourage any of my colleagues to purchase the monitor without glasses for 200,- from me... (200,- for a brand new 27" turned down!)
As no EDID modifying was ever performed on either machine, 2 monitors suffer the prob while 2 others don't for me rules out the option of a corrupted EDID which on top is generatede by the monitor hardware, so without deliberately fumbling around with it cannot be corrupted unless the hardware itself is defective.
3D as per nvidia's 3Dvision is 2 parallax corrected alternating frames at 100 or more fps with full resolution. No checker board (= CB), vertical or horizontal interleaving involved. The HannsG ands Sammy clearly show and prove that: viewing or photograpphing the S3D test pattern without glasses shows homogeneous ghostpictures with full panel resolution while on Acer 274 and Asus 278HE the resolution is undoubtly compromised.
Watching/photographing a still content on the monitore will in fact give the impression odf a full HD res, but things gett messy in movement and 3D. It muist be stated that in 3D when watched with glasses the effect is far less prominent as the brain merges the 2 frames for each eye and so performes some kind of "biological" deinterlacing. This is were Acer and Asus apparently have placed their bet's on: that the average user is too unexperienced with 3D to ever notice.
If it was just in 3D mode I would even have considered keeping the screen (300,- incl. 3DVision 2 glasses is not a bad deal still) but with 2D being affected as well this was clearly surpassing the boundaries of my benevolence as it makes these displays even unsuited for sophisticated multimedia purposes of any kind.
As my fierce hypercritc here has doubted I actually even had these monitors for testing, allthough I don't know how to justify that without having any kind of contradicting evidence at hand himself, I casn advise how to reproduce the problem and test fpoor yourself. So, if somebody here has access to either of these monitors and just dragging a window around the desktop doesn't make suspicious enough for a more evident prove do the following:
Prepare a small test video on a USB stick that can be launched by Media Player, VNC, Quicktime, or the player of your choice. First create 2 frames with homogenous color and high contrast (e.g. one black one white) with irfan view or similar. They don't neccessarily have full HD resolution as this will make things more comnplicated and the problem shows as good in windowed mode as stetched to full screen (which even more clearly proves that the problem lies on the panel driver domain). So make it 720 or even 640x360. With a video editor of your choice create s short clip with thesae 2 frames alternating at 60fps, repeated copy and paste action will speed up the process. Save to a USB stick with a non-install video player. Goo to your friends place or the next electronic superstore, fire up the video and witness the amazing results.
This was the last test that I did that asured me for good of the flaw being within the monitor itself.
On the HannsG or any 2D/3D fullHD display you will see a homogenous grey bacjkground, now somebody please go otu, do the test and report here...
This is quite serious and I'm glad I'm a happy owner of VG278H and not currently looking for a 27" 3D Vision display as it appears to be easy to buy a broken model under such circumstances.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
In summary, you incorrectly stated:
1) these monitors don't do 1080p @ 120Hz in 2D, which they do.
2) these monitors only output CB 3D @ 1080p, when that is clearly false.
Any issues you've documented relate to the quality of the screen/TFT itself and not the technology behind the 3D being used. I still think the problems you've documented are easily corrected by adjusting settings, I know for a fact I had to adjust "Sharpness" on my panel before attaining acceptable results on both the VG278H and AW2310.
And yes there's reason for skepticism because you not only made the two egregious mistakes detailed above in your early claims about 3D Vision monitors, but there's no reports about either of the two predecessor versions of these monitors exhibiting this issue. Both Acer and Asus have earlier 27" 3D Vision models that are widely lauded; it's hard to believe the slightly updated models are so far off in terms of quality.
-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings
Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W
Btw. 3DVision blog forums has another thread on the Asus.... (and eqzitara even replied on this ;) )
The info I have says that DX 11.1 is coming to Win8 before Win7, but will make it to Win7 also, contrary to the rumors which were inadvertently created from a misinformed Microsoft employee giving an interview.
Now *THAT* is the technology development we have all been waiting for. It can only be at least as good as 3D Vision (probably quite a bit better, due to one less layer of driver interference), while being even more compatible.
This means if you want to do S3D with a 3D Vision-ready monitor, and AMD graphics card, DX11.1 should make it work for you. Or a bunch of other combos...
I just can't wait.