[quote="bo3b"]Regarding NVidia fixing bugs in the driver, especially for 3D- I do not agree that they won't do anything regarding bugs. As a general rule, they've been responsive to bugs.
Take a look at the bugs in the stickied problems post. The first 8 of those have been fixed.
It is highly important to *report* these bugs. If they don't know it's a problem, they aren't going to do anything.
And the bugs need to be clear, and reproducible. Something like "3D Vision stutters in driver 337.88" is not good enough, that's not something that is clear enough to know how to track it down. Something like "FC3 stutters only when 3D is enabled in driver 337.88 with a 1070 and FX-8530" gives them something they can reproduce and figure out.
@terintamel: in particular in your bug report for this problem, be sure to include a reference to this thread, as there is also a lot of great details and differential tests that will like help them figure it out.[/quote]
Hi bo3b,
I don't think many will take this bug seriously, or even think there is a problem until some time from now, and then it'll be like a frog jumping out of the boiling water experiment.
If I had my way, I would work with others to verify my results, and then a bunch of us got together to articulate succinctly what the problem is and how it can be replicated. Then a bunch of us would submit a bug report to nVidia using the same language and description.
This would have the biggest chance of getting noticed.
Unfortunately, one major problem is that stutter and fps drops are a subjective experience to users, and most haven't even noticed them. I would wager that most people don't even care about the FPS unless it gets below 15 or so, thus never come to heads with the problem, or if it does occur, are even cognisant of it. This is an issue which has to be deferentially diagnosed with multiple pieces of equipment to synthesise a working hypothesis. I foresee even tech support giving up on it after declaring it as un-reproducible, because they don;t have the manpower / will to look into all aspects of it. It's going to be an uphill battle.
For example, upon helifax's suggestion, I sent the following message to ManuelG a few days ago, linking to this thread. No response what so ever.
===============
Dear Mr Guzman,
helifax suggested that I report this to you as you would find it interesting and hopefully replicate the issue plaguing most / all 3D Vision games.
Basically, assuming the GPU is not being saturated, the 3D Vision driver severely limits the threads a game can use, i.e. a 6 thread game can only use a max of 3 threads when 3D Vision is enabled, or a 4 thread game can only use a max of 2 cores when 3D Vision is enabled.
I have explained my findings, including my test methodology in the following thread.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/832496/3d-vision/3d-vision-cpu-core-bottleneck/4/
For replication, one has to ensure the GPU is not being saturated, and the FPS in 3D Vision is not maxed.
Unfortunately, this problem seems to affect most/all games and all users. With the advent of games using multiple threads, most modern games are on the verge of becoming unplayable in 3D Vision due to this bug.
Interestingly, the problem only occurs in 3D Vision and Discover, but NOT Compatibility Mode 3D.
We hope that you can replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution :)
Kind regards,
-- Shahzad Ali
Cambridge
UK
===============
Most people probably think I'm some insane quack coming up with wild theories without any basis ;-)
If you guys can reproduce it and want to make a concerted effort towards trying to get this issue fixed, then I'm ready to go full steam ahead to do a write up on the issue in a way we all agree on the wording, so we can all submit it to tech support all at once.
bo3b said:Regarding NVidia fixing bugs in the driver, especially for 3D- I do not agree that they won't do anything regarding bugs. As a general rule, they've been responsive to bugs.
Take a look at the bugs in the stickied problems post. The first 8 of those have been fixed.
It is highly important to *report* these bugs. If they don't know it's a problem, they aren't going to do anything.
And the bugs need to be clear, and reproducible. Something like "3D Vision stutters in driver 337.88" is not good enough, that's not something that is clear enough to know how to track it down. Something like "FC3 stutters only when 3D is enabled in driver 337.88 with a 1070 and FX-8530" gives them something they can reproduce and figure out.
@terintamel: in particular in your bug report for this problem, be sure to include a reference to this thread, as there is also a lot of great details and differential tests that will like help them figure it out.
Hi bo3b,
I don't think many will take this bug seriously, or even think there is a problem until some time from now, and then it'll be like a frog jumping out of the boiling water experiment.
If I had my way, I would work with others to verify my results, and then a bunch of us got together to articulate succinctly what the problem is and how it can be replicated. Then a bunch of us would submit a bug report to nVidia using the same language and description.
This would have the biggest chance of getting noticed.
Unfortunately, one major problem is that stutter and fps drops are a subjective experience to users, and most haven't even noticed them. I would wager that most people don't even care about the FPS unless it gets below 15 or so, thus never come to heads with the problem, or if it does occur, are even cognisant of it. This is an issue which has to be deferentially diagnosed with multiple pieces of equipment to synthesise a working hypothesis. I foresee even tech support giving up on it after declaring it as un-reproducible, because they don;t have the manpower / will to look into all aspects of it. It's going to be an uphill battle.
For example, upon helifax's suggestion, I sent the following message to ManuelG a few days ago, linking to this thread. No response what so ever.
===============
Dear Mr Guzman,
helifax suggested that I report this to you as you would find it interesting and hopefully replicate the issue plaguing most / all 3D Vision games.
Basically, assuming the GPU is not being saturated, the 3D Vision driver severely limits the threads a game can use, i.e. a 6 thread game can only use a max of 3 threads when 3D Vision is enabled, or a 4 thread game can only use a max of 2 cores when 3D Vision is enabled.
I have explained my findings, including my test methodology in the following thread.
For replication, one has to ensure the GPU is not being saturated, and the FPS in 3D Vision is not maxed.
Unfortunately, this problem seems to affect most/all games and all users. With the advent of games using multiple threads, most modern games are on the verge of becoming unplayable in 3D Vision due to this bug.
Interestingly, the problem only occurs in 3D Vision and Discover, but NOT Compatibility Mode 3D.
We hope that you can replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution :)
Kind regards,
-- Shahzad Ali
Cambridge
UK
===============
Most people probably think I'm some insane quack coming up with wild theories without any basis ;-)
If you guys can reproduce it and want to make a concerted effort towards trying to get this issue fixed, then I'm ready to go full steam ahead to do a write up on the issue in a way we all agree on the wording, so we can all submit it to tech support all at once.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I've never noticed any stutter or problems like that my whole 4 years of owning 3D Vision with a single GPU.
Except for Trine 1 and that was the game's issue.
My only too problems were just low FPS in GTA4 and GTA5.
GTA4 was horribly optimized PC port junk work anyway so that doesn't even run to its full hardware potential in 2D.
I get a butter smooth silky 45-58 FPS average with 1440p GTA5 with all advanced graphics off/medium shadows/DOF OFF/ and everything else pretty much maxxed even Ultra grass now with my new rig.
If that's as good as it gets then I'm happy with just that.
I've never noticed any stutter or problems like that my whole 4 years of owning 3D Vision with a single GPU.
Except for Trine 1 and that was the game's issue.
My only too problems were just low FPS in GTA4 and GTA5.
GTA4 was horribly optimized PC port junk work anyway so that doesn't even run to its full hardware potential in 2D.
I get a butter smooth silky 45-58 FPS average with 1440p GTA5 with all advanced graphics off/medium shadows/DOF OFF/ and everything else pretty much maxxed even Ultra grass now with my new rig.
If that's as good as it gets then I'm happy with just that.
Asus Maximus X Hero Z370
MSI Gaming X 1080Ti (2100 mhz OC Watercooled)
8700k (4.7ghz OC Watercooled)
16gb DDR4 3000 Ram
500GB SAMSUNG 860 EVO SERIES SSD M.2
If you are happy with 45-58fps, then good for you clammy.
It's interesting that you would change your opinion in just 13 minutes from when you posted this in the GTA5 thread where you obviously are not happy with the FPS:
[quote="clammy"]Guys here's another tip for more FPS in GTA5 3D.
Start looking into texture overhaul mods.
Remember not all original textures are exactly performance efficient.
I installed the LA Road texture mod easily gained 6-8 FPS.
[url]https://www.gta5-mods.com/misc/l-a-roads-8ae63c30-de64-4f16-8f3d-40c9e6d16212[/url]
There is indeed locked away performance in the original GTAV build.
3d Vision does have a FPS threshold but atleast we can do other things graphics wise to try and reach the max of it.
Just gotta experiement.[/quote]
I am not happy as anything under VSync is a stuttery mess for the more initiated, hence the need for GSync, ASync, Adaptive VSync, Triple Buffering, Fast Sync, etc.
It was myself and others who suggested your upgrade path in your other thread, so we know its history :)
Assuming the GPU is not being saturated, you should be getting at least double those numbers in 3D Vision, if it were not for this 'bug'. Putting it another way, you shouldn't have needed to upgrade your CPU if the 'bug' was not present and manifesting itself in GTA5. Indeed a large part of the problem is that ignorance is bliss ;-)
If you are happy with 45-58fps, then good for you clammy.
It's interesting that you would change your opinion in just 13 minutes from when you posted this in the GTA5 thread where you obviously are not happy with the FPS:
clammy said:Guys here's another tip for more FPS in GTA5 3D.
Start looking into texture overhaul mods.
Remember not all original textures are exactly performance efficient.
I installed the LA Road texture mod easily gained 6-8 FPS.
There is indeed locked away performance in the original GTAV build.
3d Vision does have a FPS threshold but atleast we can do other things graphics wise to try and reach the max of it.
Just gotta experiement.
I am not happy as anything under VSync is a stuttery mess for the more initiated, hence the need for GSync, ASync, Adaptive VSync, Triple Buffering, Fast Sync, etc.
It was myself and others who suggested your upgrade path in your other thread, so we know its history :)
Assuming the GPU is not being saturated, you should be getting at least double those numbers in 3D Vision, if it were not for this 'bug'. Putting it another way, you shouldn't have needed to upgrade your CPU if the 'bug' was not present and manifesting itself in GTA5. Indeed a large part of the problem is that ignorance is bliss ;-)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"][quote="bo3b"]Regarding NVidia fixing bugs in the driver, especially for 3D- I do not agree that they won't do anything regarding bugs. As a general rule, they've been responsive to bugs.
Take a look at the bugs in the stickied problems post. The first 8 of those have been fixed.
It is highly important to *report* these bugs. If they don't know it's a problem, they aren't going to do anything.
And the bugs need to be clear, and reproducible. Something like "3D Vision stutters in driver 337.88" is not good enough, that's not something that is clear enough to know how to track it down. Something like "FC3 stutters only when 3D is enabled in driver 337.88 with a 1070 and FX-8530" gives them something they can reproduce and figure out.
@terintamel: in particular in your bug report for this problem, be sure to include a reference to this thread, as there is also a lot of great details and differential tests that will like help them figure it out.[/quote]Hi bo3b,
I don't think many will take this bug seriously, or even think there is a problem until some time from now, and then it'll be like a frog jumping out of the boiling water experiment.
If I had my way, I would work with others to verify my results, and then a bunch of us got together to articulate succinctly what the problem is and how it can be replicated. Then a bunch of us would submit a bug report to nVidia using the same language and description.
This would have the biggest chance of getting noticed.
Unfortunately, one major problem is that stutter and fps drops are a subjective experience to users, and most haven't even noticed them. I would wager that most people don't even care about the FPS unless it gets below 15 or so, thus never come to heads with the problem, or if it does occur, are even cognisant of it. This is an issue which has to be deferentially diagnosed with multiple pieces of equipment to synthesise a working hypothesis. I foresee even tech support giving up on it after declaring it as un-reproducible, because they don;t have the manpower / will to look into all aspects of it. It's going to be an uphill battle.
For example, upon helifax's suggestion, I sent the following message to ManuelG a few days ago, linking to this thread. No response what so ever.
===============
Dear Mr Guzman,
helifax suggested that I report this to you as you would find it interesting and hopefully replicate the issue plaguing most / all 3D Vision games.
Basically, assuming the GPU is not being saturated, the 3D Vision driver severely limits the threads a game can use, i.e. a 6 thread game can only use a max of 3 threads when 3D Vision is enabled, or a 4 thread game can only use a max of 2 cores when 3D Vision is enabled.
I have explained my findings, including my test methodology in the following thread.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/832496/3d-vision/3d-vision-cpu-core-bottleneck/4/
For replication, one has to ensure the GPU is not being saturated, and the FPS in 3D Vision is not maxed.
Unfortunately, this problem seems to affect most/all games and all users. With the advent of games using multiple threads, most modern games are on the verge of becoming unplayable in 3D Vision due to this bug.
Interestingly, the problem only occurs in 3D Vision and Discover, but NOT Compatibility Mode 3D.
We hope that you can replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution :)
Kind regards,
-- Shahzad Ali
Cambridge
UK
===============
Most people probably think I'm some insane quack coming up with wild theories without any basis ;-)
If you guys can reproduce it and want to make a concerted effort towards trying to get this issue fixed, then I'm ready to go full steam ahead to do a write up on the issue in a way we all agree on the wording, so we can all submit it to tech support all at once. [/quote]
The problem with that bug report there is that it is too general. That's not actionable information, because it's too broad. I can promise they won't take a look at a general bug report like that. Why can I promise that? Because for many years I worked in Developer Technical Support at Apple, and we'd get bug reports like this all the time. With a too vague to reproduce input, we'd rarely take the time to try to reproduce it, and push the report back to the developer for clarification.
The problem is that you are actually doing[i] too much[/i] legwork here. We don't know for certain that it has anything to do with 3-cores, we don't know for certain that it happens in all games, or that single-threading has anything to do with it.
When we fill in the bug report that way, even though we are trying to be helpful, they get information that is too vague to work upon. 3-core limit? What does that mean, and how can they reproduce it?
The only thing they care about for bug reports is reproducibility. So, the best bug report will include hardware and software details, specific games, and specific scenarios to try. Once they can reproduce it, they'll work out whether it's a 3-core problem, or just a game problem, or what the actual problem is.
For this particular problem, we are not talking about mild stutter. We are talking about hard-stutter. Game breaking stutter.
Like in Just Cause 3. It's not playable simply with 3D enabled. It's a stutter fest and makes it impossible to aim.
Like for terintamel in Arkham Origins while flying. His video demonstrates the hard stutter he sees.
If anyone is still talking about soft stutter, microstutter, or minor frame rate drops, please stop. Look at terintamel's video. If it's not that, then talk of stutter is just confusing this thread, and has nothing to do with this conversation.
bo3b said:Regarding NVidia fixing bugs in the driver, especially for 3D- I do not agree that they won't do anything regarding bugs. As a general rule, they've been responsive to bugs.
Take a look at the bugs in the stickied problems post. The first 8 of those have been fixed.
It is highly important to *report* these bugs. If they don't know it's a problem, they aren't going to do anything.
And the bugs need to be clear, and reproducible. Something like "3D Vision stutters in driver 337.88" is not good enough, that's not something that is clear enough to know how to track it down. Something like "FC3 stutters only when 3D is enabled in driver 337.88 with a 1070 and FX-8530" gives them something they can reproduce and figure out.
@terintamel: in particular in your bug report for this problem, be sure to include a reference to this thread, as there is also a lot of great details and differential tests that will like help them figure it out.
Hi bo3b,
I don't think many will take this bug seriously, or even think there is a problem until some time from now, and then it'll be like a frog jumping out of the boiling water experiment.
If I had my way, I would work with others to verify my results, and then a bunch of us got together to articulate succinctly what the problem is and how it can be replicated. Then a bunch of us would submit a bug report to nVidia using the same language and description.
This would have the biggest chance of getting noticed.
Unfortunately, one major problem is that stutter and fps drops are a subjective experience to users, and most haven't even noticed them. I would wager that most people don't even care about the FPS unless it gets below 15 or so, thus never come to heads with the problem, or if it does occur, are even cognisant of it. This is an issue which has to be deferentially diagnosed with multiple pieces of equipment to synthesise a working hypothesis. I foresee even tech support giving up on it after declaring it as un-reproducible, because they don;t have the manpower / will to look into all aspects of it. It's going to be an uphill battle.
For example, upon helifax's suggestion, I sent the following message to ManuelG a few days ago, linking to this thread. No response what so ever.
===============
Dear Mr Guzman,
helifax suggested that I report this to you as you would find it interesting and hopefully replicate the issue plaguing most / all 3D Vision games.
Basically, assuming the GPU is not being saturated, the 3D Vision driver severely limits the threads a game can use, i.e. a 6 thread game can only use a max of 3 threads when 3D Vision is enabled, or a 4 thread game can only use a max of 2 cores when 3D Vision is enabled.
For replication, one has to ensure the GPU is not being saturated, and the FPS in 3D Vision is not maxed.
Unfortunately, this problem seems to affect most/all games and all users. With the advent of games using multiple threads, most modern games are on the verge of becoming unplayable in 3D Vision due to this bug.
Interestingly, the problem only occurs in 3D Vision and Discover, but NOT Compatibility Mode 3D.
We hope that you can replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution :)
Kind regards,
-- Shahzad Ali
Cambridge
UK
===============
Most people probably think I'm some insane quack coming up with wild theories without any basis ;-)
If you guys can reproduce it and want to make a concerted effort towards trying to get this issue fixed, then I'm ready to go full steam ahead to do a write up on the issue in a way we all agree on the wording, so we can all submit it to tech support all at once.
The problem with that bug report there is that it is too general. That's not actionable information, because it's too broad. I can promise they won't take a look at a general bug report like that. Why can I promise that? Because for many years I worked in Developer Technical Support at Apple, and we'd get bug reports like this all the time. With a too vague to reproduce input, we'd rarely take the time to try to reproduce it, and push the report back to the developer for clarification.
The problem is that you are actually doing too much legwork here. We don't know for certain that it has anything to do with 3-cores, we don't know for certain that it happens in all games, or that single-threading has anything to do with it.
When we fill in the bug report that way, even though we are trying to be helpful, they get information that is too vague to work upon. 3-core limit? What does that mean, and how can they reproduce it?
The only thing they care about for bug reports is reproducibility. So, the best bug report will include hardware and software details, specific games, and specific scenarios to try. Once they can reproduce it, they'll work out whether it's a 3-core problem, or just a game problem, or what the actual problem is.
For this particular problem, we are not talking about mild stutter. We are talking about hard-stutter. Game breaking stutter.
Like in Just Cause 3. It's not playable simply with 3D enabled. It's a stutter fest and makes it impossible to aim.
Like for terintamel in Arkham Origins while flying. His video demonstrates the hard stutter he sees.
If anyone is still talking about soft stutter, microstutter, or minor frame rate drops, please stop. Look at terintamel's video. If it's not that, then talk of stutter is just confusing this thread, and has nothing to do with this conversation.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
As I said bo3b, we need to reach some consensus on the wording, after others have verified the results :)
The last thing we want is for nvidia to just shrug their shoulders and say "well, that's 3D Vision - it requires double power of GPU [u]AND[/u] CPU."
Indeed we are talking about hard stutter. GPU saturation would only cause low frame rates. With this 'bug', the game logic thread is having to compete with the rendering thread, and that's when you get the stuttery mess you see in his videos.
For example, look at the hard stutter caused by the insanely high frame times on his FX-8350 in a CPU bottlenecked scenareo:
[img]http://media.bestofmicro.com/X/3/369255/original/SkyrimHi1920CPUBottleneck2013.png[/img]
More here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407-7.html
If you imagine what these graphs would look like in a game, then the Batman videos come instantly to mind. This kind of thing is why I make sure to have a frame time graph on my little LCD. On an intel, it's better but the problem is still there.
I do not have JC3 yet, or else I would have investigated. If you feel it's worth it, and its producing the same problem, then I'll install it over the weekend. Is there any specific place near the beginning you want me to test?
As I said bo3b, we need to reach some consensus on the wording, after others have verified the results :)
The last thing we want is for nvidia to just shrug their shoulders and say "well, that's 3D Vision - it requires double power of GPU AND CPU."
Indeed we are talking about hard stutter. GPU saturation would only cause low frame rates. With this 'bug', the game logic thread is having to compete with the rendering thread, and that's when you get the stuttery mess you see in his videos.
For example, look at the hard stutter caused by the insanely high frame times on his FX-8350 in a CPU bottlenecked scenareo:
If you imagine what these graphs would look like in a game, then the Batman videos come instantly to mind. This kind of thing is why I make sure to have a frame time graph on my little LCD. On an intel, it's better but the problem is still there.
I do not have JC3 yet, or else I would have investigated. If you feel it's worth it, and its producing the same problem, then I'll install it over the weekend. Is there any specific place near the beginning you want me to test?
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]If you are happy with 45-58fps, then good for you clammy.
It's interesting that you would change your opinion in just 13 minutes from when you posted this in the GTA5 thread where you obviously are not happy with the FPS:
[quote="clammy"]Guys here's another tip for more FPS in GTA5 3D.
Start looking into texture overhaul mods.
Remember not all original textures are exactly performance efficient.
I installed the LA Road texture mod easily gained 6-8 FPS.
[url]https://www.gta5-mods.com/misc/l-a-roads-8ae63c30-de64-4f16-8f3d-40c9e6d16212[/url]
There is indeed locked away performance in the original GTAV build.
3d Vision does have a FPS threshold but atleast we can do other things graphics wise to try and reach the max of it.
Just gotta experiement.[/quote]
I am not happy as anything under VSync is a stuttery mess for the more initiated, hence the need for GSync, ASync, Adaptive VSync, Triple Buffering, Fast Sync, etc.
It was myself and others who suggested your upgrade path in your other thread, so we know its history :)
Assuming the GPU is not being saturated, you should be getting at least double those numbers in 3D Vision, if it were not for this 'bug'. Putting it another way, you shouldn't have needed to upgrade your CPU if the 'bug' was not present and manifesting itself in GTA5. Indeed a large part of the problem is that ignorance is bliss ;-) [/quote]
Rage I've stated before I'm happy with GTA 5 performance because its buttery smooth even at low FPS.
I'm also obsessed with squeezing out every single FPS I can get to that 3D Vision threshold limit in GTA5.
I do not play on a vanilla GTA5 build...my GTA5 folder is heavily modded with ENBs,Reshades and texture mods that required more hardware firepower to run alongside 3D Vision.
Meanwhile my new hardware future proofed and increased performance with other game titles I play around with ie Planetside 2 in VR with 2.0 pixel density with debug tool.
As far as CPU upgrade I did it because I wanted to and because I had the freedom to do and buy whatever I wanted
with my hard earned money, regardless what advice you guys gave.
There isn't anything ignorant about my upgrade at all...it was a great move FOR ME!
Do you understand better now?
RAGEdemon said:If you are happy with 45-58fps, then good for you clammy.
It's interesting that you would change your opinion in just 13 minutes from when you posted this in the GTA5 thread where you obviously are not happy with the FPS:
clammy said:Guys here's another tip for more FPS in GTA5 3D.
Start looking into texture overhaul mods.
Remember not all original textures are exactly performance efficient.
I installed the LA Road texture mod easily gained 6-8 FPS.
There is indeed locked away performance in the original GTAV build.
3d Vision does have a FPS threshold but atleast we can do other things graphics wise to try and reach the max of it.
Just gotta experiement.
I am not happy as anything under VSync is a stuttery mess for the more initiated, hence the need for GSync, ASync, Adaptive VSync, Triple Buffering, Fast Sync, etc.
It was myself and others who suggested your upgrade path in your other thread, so we know its history :)
Assuming the GPU is not being saturated, you should be getting at least double those numbers in 3D Vision, if it were not for this 'bug'. Putting it another way, you shouldn't have needed to upgrade your CPU if the 'bug' was not present and manifesting itself in GTA5. Indeed a large part of the problem is that ignorance is bliss ;-)
Rage I've stated before I'm happy with GTA 5 performance because its buttery smooth even at low FPS.
I'm also obsessed with squeezing out every single FPS I can get to that 3D Vision threshold limit in GTA5.
I do not play on a vanilla GTA5 build...my GTA5 folder is heavily modded with ENBs,Reshades and texture mods that required more hardware firepower to run alongside 3D Vision.
Meanwhile my new hardware future proofed and increased performance with other game titles I play around with ie Planetside 2 in VR with 2.0 pixel density with debug tool.
As far as CPU upgrade I did it because I wanted to and because I had the freedom to do and buy whatever I wanted
with my hard earned money, regardless what advice you guys gave.
There isn't anything ignorant about my upgrade at all...it was a great move FOR ME!
Asus Maximus X Hero Z370
MSI Gaming X 1080Ti (2100 mhz OC Watercooled)
8700k (4.7ghz OC Watercooled)
16gb DDR4 3000 Ram
500GB SAMSUNG 860 EVO SERIES SSD M.2
@bo3b and @RAGEdemon -
Since I have an open ticket with Nvidia (they have not responded further for a week), I want to do everything I can to explain this issue simply so I have a good chance of getting them to actually test it and maybe fix it.
How best should I direct Nvidia to address this?
1. Should I give them lots of data (lots of games/charts) and tell them what we think the issue is?
2. Should I minimize the data and focus on one game (Arkham Origins) and let them draw their own conclusions?
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my CPU?
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 370.72.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
To me this seems to be more than my CPU is underpowered and more there might be some thread issues in the 3dvision driver after 337.88 that is more pronounced on CPUs with lower IPC than most intels.
I eagerly await your suggestions on how to proceed with my ticket with Nvidia.
Since I have an open ticket with Nvidia (they have not responded further for a week), I want to do everything I can to explain this issue simply so I have a good chance of getting them to actually test it and maybe fix it.
How best should I direct Nvidia to address this?
1. Should I give them lots of data (lots of games/charts) and tell them what we think the issue is?
2. Should I minimize the data and focus on one game (Arkham Origins) and let them draw their own conclusions?
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my CPU?
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 370.72.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
To me this seems to be more than my CPU is underpowered and more there might be some thread issues in the 3dvision driver after 337.88 that is more pronounced on CPUs with lower IPC than most intels.
I eagerly await your suggestions on how to proceed with my ticket with Nvidia.
Shall we keep it simple?
How about:
==============
In an otherwise GPU bottlenecked game, the CPU usage significantly DECREASES when 3D Vision is enabled in almost all games. 3D Vision seems to cause a CPU bottleneck, which causes the GPU usage to be significantly reduced, as the CPU can't feed the GPU fast enough any more.
This CPU bottleneck results in very low FPS and lag spikes and uneven hard stutter, which results in games being unplayable.
CPU bottleneck is confirmed because you can overclock/underclock the CPU alone, while everything else in the system remains constant. The FPS and GPU usage will scale linearly with the overclock / underclock of the CPU.
Some games of note which exhibit the CPU bottleneck with 3D Vision while the GPU usage remains well below saturation:
GTA5 (65% performance decrease)
The Witcher 3 (50% performance decrease)
Call of Duty:Advanced Warfare (68% performance decrease)
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Just Cause 3
Batman Arkham Knight
==============
Anyone want to add / modify / clarify this?
==============
In an otherwise GPU bottlenecked game, the CPU usage significantly DECREASES when 3D Vision is enabled in almost all games. 3D Vision seems to cause a CPU bottleneck, which causes the GPU usage to be significantly reduced, as the CPU can't feed the GPU fast enough any more.
This CPU bottleneck results in very low FPS and lag spikes and uneven hard stutter, which results in games being unplayable.
CPU bottleneck is confirmed because you can overclock/underclock the CPU alone, while everything else in the system remains constant. The FPS and GPU usage will scale linearly with the overclock / underclock of the CPU.
Some games of note which exhibit the CPU bottleneck with 3D Vision while the GPU usage remains well below saturation:
GTA5 (65% performance decrease)
The Witcher 3 (50% performance decrease)
Call of Duty:Advanced Warfare (68% performance decrease)
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Just Cause 3
Batman Arkham Knight
==============
Anyone want to add / modify / clarify this?
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="terintamel"]@RAGEdemon - Have you thought about opening a ticket of your own as well?[/quote]
Oh yes, I shall, in time.
What I propose is that since this is a more complex problem than usual, we ought to get our wording right, so that when tech support receives it from multiple people, they know that all of us are referring to the same problem. Otherwise, they will think we are randoms getting different problems and it will be ignored.
Once the wording is agreed, I along with (hopefully) others, will submit our tickets together for impact.
Also, it will be easier for people to copy-paste a nicely worded bug report rather than write one themselves, i.e. hopefully more people will be willing to report this as it affects us all.
Right now, we don't really know how best to articulate the problem...
terintamel said:@RAGEdemon - Have you thought about opening a ticket of your own as well?
Oh yes, I shall, in time.
What I propose is that since this is a more complex problem than usual, we ought to get our wording right, so that when tech support receives it from multiple people, they know that all of us are referring to the same problem. Otherwise, they will think we are randoms getting different problems and it will be ignored.
Once the wording is agreed, I along with (hopefully) others, will submit our tickets together for impact.
Also, it will be easier for people to copy-paste a nicely worded bug report rather than write one themselves, i.e. hopefully more people will be willing to report this as it affects us all.
Right now, we don't really know how best to articulate the problem...
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Can I make a suggestion? I think we should create a new sticky thread about this issue dedicated to gathering data about this problem.
The first post can detail the believed issue along with an agreed upon way to test along with what data is needed.
Basically users can load up MSI afterburner to gather CPU usage per core and GPU usage with 3dvision enabled (3d on/off in game) and then disabled in different games so we then have a clearer picture from multiple users over multiple games and setups, even if they don't experience stutter.
Also would like to see results for dx9 games vs DX11 games to see if the issue is a specific code path or not. Especially games the let you choose both modes.
Thoughts?
Can I make a suggestion? I think we should create a new sticky thread about this issue dedicated to gathering data about this problem.
The first post can detail the believed issue along with an agreed upon way to test along with what data is needed.
Basically users can load up MSI afterburner to gather CPU usage per core and GPU usage with 3dvision enabled (3d on/off in game) and then disabled in different games so we then have a clearer picture from multiple users over multiple games and setups, even if they don't experience stutter.
Also would like to see results for dx9 games vs DX11 games to see if the issue is a specific code path or not. Especially games the let you choose both modes.
Well, users can't make stickies, and there have been excellent threads in the past where users have requested mods for them to be stickied, but they have been ignored (bo3b's school for shaderhackers, helifax's video tutorials and CM mode exploits for example).
It's a great idea, and I would definitely contribute to it, but I wouldn't know how to get it stickied.
Well, users can't make stickies, and there have been excellent threads in the past where users have requested mods for them to be stickied, but they have been ignored (bo3b's school for shaderhackers, helifax's video tutorials and CM mode exploits for example).
It's a great idea, and I would definitely contribute to it, but I wouldn't know how to get it stickied.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Well I think we should do it anyway, even if it not stickied. We can try to keep the thread to results only and get some standardized results to then submit to Nvidia.
I suggest you open the thread and setup the rules as I have issues at times making my thoughts clear when writing them down.
Well I think we should do it anyway, even if it not stickied. We can try to keep the thread to results only and get some standardized results to then submit to Nvidia.
I suggest you open the thread and setup the rules as I have issues at times making my thoughts clear when writing them down.
I just got a response from Nvidia asking me to try older drivers. I went back to the oldest driver the 1060 allows and still got the same issue. Below is my response to Nvidia.
=========================
I tried the oldest windows 10 driver that the gtx 1060 can use and the issue still persists. In an effort to make this issue clearer and easier for Nvidia to possibly reproduce I want to focus for now on just one game from my list; Batman: Arkham Origins. A game that has no business providing the performance it does just by enabling the 3dvision driver.
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and I know with 100% certainty happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my current system and is in fact a driver bug possible introduced after 337.88.
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 368.81 or higher.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
Here some examples including video footage showing the issue. Pay attention to CPU usage per core, Framerate and GPU usage.
1280x720 all settings to lowest (Trying to eliminate any CPU or GPU bottleneck)
Dx11 3dvision Disabled
Gliding
71.7 fps 30% GPU
Average Core usage 31.25%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeM9ANxhuII&feature=youtu.be
Dx11 3dvision Enabled but 3d off in game
Gliding
36.7 fps 13% GPU
Average Core usage 20.62%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujm7gse-_6c&feature=youtu.be
I think this is something Nvidia should be able to reproduce, if you so choose. I can even send you my save game files for this game.
I am no expert, but an idea that has been floating around the 3dVision forums is that the 3dvision driver has a serious multithreading issue where something in the driver makes it so the CPU cannot feed the GPU fast enough and that would lead to stutter, fps drops, and lower than expected GPU usage. The stutter will be more pronounced on CPUs with lower Instructions Per Clock like AMD, and might not be noticed as much on Intel CPU with their vastly superior IPC.
If interested I can link to the forum thread.
===============================
I just got a response from Nvidia asking me to try older drivers. I went back to the oldest driver the 1060 allows and still got the same issue. Below is my response to Nvidia.
=========================
I tried the oldest windows 10 driver that the gtx 1060 can use and the issue still persists. In an effort to make this issue clearer and easier for Nvidia to possibly reproduce I want to focus for now on just one game from my list; Batman: Arkham Origins. A game that has no business providing the performance it does just by enabling the 3dvision driver.
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and I know with 100% certainty happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my current system and is in fact a driver bug possible introduced after 337.88.
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 368.81 or higher.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
Here some examples including video footage showing the issue. Pay attention to CPU usage per core, Framerate and GPU usage.
1280x720 all settings to lowest (Trying to eliminate any CPU or GPU bottleneck)
Dx11 3dvision Disabled
Gliding
71.7 fps 30% GPU
Average Core usage 31.25%
;feature=youtu.be
Dx11 3dvision Enabled but 3d off in game
Gliding
36.7 fps 13% GPU
Average Core usage 20.62%
;feature=youtu.be
I think this is something Nvidia should be able to reproduce, if you so choose. I can even send you my save game files for this game.
I am no expert, but an idea that has been floating around the 3dVision forums is that the 3dvision driver has a serious multithreading issue where something in the driver makes it so the CPU cannot feed the GPU fast enough and that would lead to stutter, fps drops, and lower than expected GPU usage. The stutter will be more pronounced on CPUs with lower Instructions Per Clock like AMD, and might not be noticed as much on Intel CPU with their vastly superior IPC.
If interested I can link to the forum thread.
===============================
I've started a thread here:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/966422/3d-vision/3d-vision-cpu-bottelneck-gathering-information-thread-/
Any suggestions welcome.
It's important that we all chip in to this, as the problem affects us all, if not now, then definitely in time.
Hi bo3b,
I don't think many will take this bug seriously, or even think there is a problem until some time from now, and then it'll be like a frog jumping out of the boiling water experiment.
If I had my way, I would work with others to verify my results, and then a bunch of us got together to articulate succinctly what the problem is and how it can be replicated. Then a bunch of us would submit a bug report to nVidia using the same language and description.
This would have the biggest chance of getting noticed.
Unfortunately, one major problem is that stutter and fps drops are a subjective experience to users, and most haven't even noticed them. I would wager that most people don't even care about the FPS unless it gets below 15 or so, thus never come to heads with the problem, or if it does occur, are even cognisant of it. This is an issue which has to be deferentially diagnosed with multiple pieces of equipment to synthesise a working hypothesis. I foresee even tech support giving up on it after declaring it as un-reproducible, because they don;t have the manpower / will to look into all aspects of it. It's going to be an uphill battle.
For example, upon helifax's suggestion, I sent the following message to ManuelG a few days ago, linking to this thread. No response what so ever.
===============
Dear Mr Guzman,
helifax suggested that I report this to you as you would find it interesting and hopefully replicate the issue plaguing most / all 3D Vision games.
Basically, assuming the GPU is not being saturated, the 3D Vision driver severely limits the threads a game can use, i.e. a 6 thread game can only use a max of 3 threads when 3D Vision is enabled, or a 4 thread game can only use a max of 2 cores when 3D Vision is enabled.
I have explained my findings, including my test methodology in the following thread.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/832496/3d-vision/3d-vision-cpu-core-bottleneck/4/
For replication, one has to ensure the GPU is not being saturated, and the FPS in 3D Vision is not maxed.
Unfortunately, this problem seems to affect most/all games and all users. With the advent of games using multiple threads, most modern games are on the verge of becoming unplayable in 3D Vision due to this bug.
Interestingly, the problem only occurs in 3D Vision and Discover, but NOT Compatibility Mode 3D.
We hope that you can replicate the issue and hopefully find a solution :)
Kind regards,
-- Shahzad Ali
Cambridge
UK
===============
Most people probably think I'm some insane quack coming up with wild theories without any basis ;-)
If you guys can reproduce it and want to make a concerted effort towards trying to get this issue fixed, then I'm ready to go full steam ahead to do a write up on the issue in a way we all agree on the wording, so we can all submit it to tech support all at once.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Except for Trine 1 and that was the game's issue.
My only too problems were just low FPS in GTA4 and GTA5.
GTA4 was horribly optimized PC port junk work anyway so that doesn't even run to its full hardware potential in 2D.
I get a butter smooth silky 45-58 FPS average with 1440p GTA5 with all advanced graphics off/medium shadows/DOF OFF/ and everything else pretty much maxxed even Ultra grass now with my new rig.
If that's as good as it gets then I'm happy with just that.
Gaming Rig 1
i7 5820K 3.3ghz (Stock Clock)
GTX 1080 Founders Edition (Stock Clock)
16GB DDR4 2400 RAM
512 SAMSUNG 840 PRO
Gaming Rig 2
My new build
Asus Maximus X Hero Z370
MSI Gaming X 1080Ti (2100 mhz OC Watercooled)
8700k (4.7ghz OC Watercooled)
16gb DDR4 3000 Ram
500GB SAMSUNG 860 EVO SERIES SSD M.2
It's interesting that you would change your opinion in just 13 minutes from when you posted this in the GTA5 thread where you obviously are not happy with the FPS:
I am not happy as anything under VSync is a stuttery mess for the more initiated, hence the need for GSync, ASync, Adaptive VSync, Triple Buffering, Fast Sync, etc.
It was myself and others who suggested your upgrade path in your other thread, so we know its history :)
Assuming the GPU is not being saturated, you should be getting at least double those numbers in 3D Vision, if it were not for this 'bug'. Putting it another way, you shouldn't have needed to upgrade your CPU if the 'bug' was not present and manifesting itself in GTA5. Indeed a large part of the problem is that ignorance is bliss ;-)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
The problem with that bug report there is that it is too general. That's not actionable information, because it's too broad. I can promise they won't take a look at a general bug report like that. Why can I promise that? Because for many years I worked in Developer Technical Support at Apple, and we'd get bug reports like this all the time. With a too vague to reproduce input, we'd rarely take the time to try to reproduce it, and push the report back to the developer for clarification.
The problem is that you are actually doing too much legwork here. We don't know for certain that it has anything to do with 3-cores, we don't know for certain that it happens in all games, or that single-threading has anything to do with it.
When we fill in the bug report that way, even though we are trying to be helpful, they get information that is too vague to work upon. 3-core limit? What does that mean, and how can they reproduce it?
The only thing they care about for bug reports is reproducibility. So, the best bug report will include hardware and software details, specific games, and specific scenarios to try. Once they can reproduce it, they'll work out whether it's a 3-core problem, or just a game problem, or what the actual problem is.
For this particular problem, we are not talking about mild stutter. We are talking about hard-stutter. Game breaking stutter.
Like in Just Cause 3. It's not playable simply with 3D enabled. It's a stutter fest and makes it impossible to aim.
Like for terintamel in Arkham Origins while flying. His video demonstrates the hard stutter he sees.
If anyone is still talking about soft stutter, microstutter, or minor frame rate drops, please stop. Look at terintamel's video. If it's not that, then talk of stutter is just confusing this thread, and has nothing to do with this conversation.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
The last thing we want is for nvidia to just shrug their shoulders and say "well, that's 3D Vision - it requires double power of GPU AND CPU."
Indeed we are talking about hard stutter. GPU saturation would only cause low frame rates. With this 'bug', the game logic thread is having to compete with the rendering thread, and that's when you get the stuttery mess you see in his videos.
For example, look at the hard stutter caused by the insanely high frame times on his FX-8350 in a CPU bottlenecked scenareo:
More here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407-7.html
If you imagine what these graphs would look like in a game, then the Batman videos come instantly to mind. This kind of thing is why I make sure to have a frame time graph on my little LCD. On an intel, it's better but the problem is still there.
I do not have JC3 yet, or else I would have investigated. If you feel it's worth it, and its producing the same problem, then I'll install it over the weekend. Is there any specific place near the beginning you want me to test?
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Rage I've stated before I'm happy with GTA 5 performance because its buttery smooth even at low FPS.
I'm also obsessed with squeezing out every single FPS I can get to that 3D Vision threshold limit in GTA5.
I do not play on a vanilla GTA5 build...my GTA5 folder is heavily modded with ENBs,Reshades and texture mods that required more hardware firepower to run alongside 3D Vision.
Meanwhile my new hardware future proofed and increased performance with other game titles I play around with ie Planetside 2 in VR with 2.0 pixel density with debug tool.
As far as CPU upgrade I did it because I wanted to and because I had the freedom to do and buy whatever I wanted
with my hard earned money, regardless what advice you guys gave.
There isn't anything ignorant about my upgrade at all...it was a great move FOR ME!
Do you understand better now?
Gaming Rig 1
i7 5820K 3.3ghz (Stock Clock)
GTX 1080 Founders Edition (Stock Clock)
16GB DDR4 2400 RAM
512 SAMSUNG 840 PRO
Gaming Rig 2
My new build
Asus Maximus X Hero Z370
MSI Gaming X 1080Ti (2100 mhz OC Watercooled)
8700k (4.7ghz OC Watercooled)
16gb DDR4 3000 Ram
500GB SAMSUNG 860 EVO SERIES SSD M.2
Since I have an open ticket with Nvidia (they have not responded further for a week), I want to do everything I can to explain this issue simply so I have a good chance of getting them to actually test it and maybe fix it.
How best should I direct Nvidia to address this?
1. Should I give them lots of data (lots of games/charts) and tell them what we think the issue is?
2. Should I minimize the data and focus on one game (Arkham Origins) and let them draw their own conclusions?
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my CPU?
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 370.72.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
To me this seems to be more than my CPU is underpowered and more there might be some thread issues in the 3dvision driver after 337.88 that is more pronounced on CPUs with lower IPC than most intels.
I eagerly await your suggestions on how to proceed with my ticket with Nvidia.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
How about:
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In an otherwise GPU bottlenecked game, the CPU usage significantly DECREASES when 3D Vision is enabled in almost all games. 3D Vision seems to cause a CPU bottleneck, which causes the GPU usage to be significantly reduced, as the CPU can't feed the GPU fast enough any more.
This CPU bottleneck results in very low FPS and lag spikes and uneven hard stutter, which results in games being unplayable.
CPU bottleneck is confirmed because you can overclock/underclock the CPU alone, while everything else in the system remains constant. The FPS and GPU usage will scale linearly with the overclock / underclock of the CPU.
Some games of note which exhibit the CPU bottleneck with 3D Vision while the GPU usage remains well below saturation:
GTA5 (65% performance decrease)
The Witcher 3 (50% performance decrease)
Call of Duty:Advanced Warfare (68% performance decrease)
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Just Cause 3
Batman Arkham Knight
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Anyone want to add / modify / clarify this?
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
Oh yes, I shall, in time.
What I propose is that since this is a more complex problem than usual, we ought to get our wording right, so that when tech support receives it from multiple people, they know that all of us are referring to the same problem. Otherwise, they will think we are randoms getting different problems and it will be ignored.
Once the wording is agreed, I along with (hopefully) others, will submit our tickets together for impact.
Also, it will be easier for people to copy-paste a nicely worded bug report rather than write one themselves, i.e. hopefully more people will be willing to report this as it affects us all.
Right now, we don't really know how best to articulate the problem...
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
The first post can detail the believed issue along with an agreed upon way to test along with what data is needed.
Basically users can load up MSI afterburner to gather CPU usage per core and GPU usage with 3dvision enabled (3d on/off in game) and then disabled in different games so we then have a clearer picture from multiple users over multiple games and setups, even if they don't experience stutter.
Also would like to see results for dx9 games vs DX11 games to see if the issue is a specific code path or not. Especially games the let you choose both modes.
Thoughts?
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
It's a great idea, and I would definitely contribute to it, but I wouldn't know how to get it stickied.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I suggest you open the thread and setup the rules as I have issues at times making my thoughts clear when writing them down.
AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
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I tried the oldest windows 10 driver that the gtx 1060 can use and the issue still persists. In an effort to make this issue clearer and easier for Nvidia to possibly reproduce I want to focus for now on just one game from my list; Batman: Arkham Origins. A game that has no business providing the performance it does just by enabling the 3dvision driver.
The reason I want to focus on Arkham Origins is the hard stutter happens to me on my current system and I know with 100% certainty happened on my old system (on any driver after 337.88). That might make it a good way to prove that the issue is not solely caused by my current system and is in fact a driver bug possible introduced after 337.88.
Here are my thoughts. I ran Arkham Origins in 3dvision at 1440x900 with all settings on high (NO AA) in Windows 8 on a Phenom II X4 955BE CPU with a gtx 660ti and a driver under 337.88. The recommended CPU for the game is a Phenom II X4 965. My FX-8350 has multicore performance well above the 965 and single core performance is also moderately better.
I then upgraded to Windows 8.1 and moved to a new MB and CPU (FX-8350) but kept all the same other components (ram, sound, 660ti) and still on any driver 337.88 or lower I got NO hard stutter at all when gliding through the city in Akrham Origins.
I then upgraded to a driver over 337.88 and got the EXACT same STUTTER as I am seeing now in Win 10 on a gtx 1060 with driver 368.81 or higher.
Even if I drop my in game settings to everything off and a resolution of 1280x720 the hard stutter remains only if 3dvision is enabled (even if 3d is off in game).
Quick example -
1280x720 all settings to lowest value
With 3dvision enabled, but off in game. Standing on roof top I get 154.00fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 22fps with 10% GPU usage.
With 3dvision disabled. Standing on roof top I get 173.9fps. Gliding between roofs (my video example) I get as low as 71fps with 44% GPU usage.
Here some examples including video footage showing the issue. Pay attention to CPU usage per core, Framerate and GPU usage.
1280x720 all settings to lowest (Trying to eliminate any CPU or GPU bottleneck)
Dx11 3dvision Disabled
Gliding
71.7 fps 30% GPU
Average Core usage 31.25%
;feature=youtu.be
Dx11 3dvision Enabled but 3d off in game
Gliding
36.7 fps 13% GPU
Average Core usage 20.62%
;feature=youtu.be
I think this is something Nvidia should be able to reproduce, if you so choose. I can even send you my save game files for this game.
I am no expert, but an idea that has been floating around the 3dVision forums is that the 3dvision driver has a serious multithreading issue where something in the driver makes it so the CPU cannot feed the GPU fast enough and that would lead to stutter, fps drops, and lower than expected GPU usage. The stutter will be more pronounced on CPUs with lower Instructions Per Clock like AMD, and might not be noticed as much on Intel CPU with their vastly superior IPC.
If interested I can link to the forum thread.
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AMD FX-8350 4GHz
Gigabyte 990FXA-UD3 Rev 4.0
G-Skill PC3-10700- 16GB
Gigabyte Windforce GTX 1060 OC 6GB - 417.01
Creative Soundblaster Z
ViewSonic VX2268WM Black 22" 1680x1050 5ms 120Hz 3Dvision
Windows 10 x64 1709
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/966422/3d-vision/3d-vision-cpu-bottelneck-gathering-information-thread-/
Any suggestions welcome.
It's important that we all chip in to this, as the problem affects us all, if not now, then definitely in time.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.