I urge caution. While I'm personally happy to donate for 3d fixes (and have done so in the past to those who would accept it), this is a delicate situation, and a delicate community.
I'll also point out that Helix seems to be against taking donations, and he has contributed an incredible amount to our little community. If people are going to use his work to make money, I can't imagine he'll be pleased, or okay with that.
On top of that, you have nVidia. I can't imagine they're going to be pleased with people using parts of their work for profit either. I'm sure they don't care about a few little donations, but you can be certain they'll be playing attention if an actual business is started.
I urge caution. While I'm personally happy to donate for 3d fixes (and have done so in the past to those who would accept it), this is a delicate situation, and a delicate community.
I'll also point out that Helix seems to be against taking donations, and he has contributed an incredible amount to our little community. If people are going to use his work to make money, I can't imagine he'll be pleased, or okay with that.
On top of that, you have nVidia. I can't imagine they're going to be pleased with people using parts of their work for profit either. I'm sure they don't care about a few little donations, but you can be certain they'll be playing attention if an actual business is started.
@Helifax Hi - I will be honest and say that, aside from agreeing with you about donations, I don't really understand your argument, sorry. I particularly don't understand your complete rejection of the notion that there is any kind of 3D Vision community - I think there is, it's small, and even fewer people participate that is true, but we help each other out, we share. Your argument that we don't go to work for free is really quite vacuous, I mean what on earth has that got to do with anything? - the notion that everything we do is, or should be, for payment because we live in a capitalist society is ridiculous. And the fact that we don't do everything else for free either has nothing to do with why we do *this* activity "for free". I do this because it's something I can do, I enjoy it, and to give back to a wider community that has given me free stuff for over 15 years now. The fact that it is not going back to the same people, or that some of them never give anything back themselves, is irrelevant. I donate money to charity, but the fact that I don't know who that money ends up with does not stop me donating. I am not averse to money, just so we are clear, I earn a very healthy 6-figure salary, drive an expensive BMW, and own a large 5 bed detached house etc - I like nice stuff, and I believe in fair payment for a fair days work just as much as the next person. I just don't believe you should be driven to try and extract money out of people at every opportunity. I guess you and me are just very different people, so let's agree to disagree and move on. Everyone knows our points of view now, and I am aware that I am just repeating myself anyway...
Coming full circle though, the scheme described by the OP in the first place is as close as I think you can get to an organized and equitable system that does not impose burden or expectation on potential game fixers - but I also note that no one has contributed much in the way of specifics or suggestions for how that might work yet so I'd personally like to hear more on that than to continue with the current line of dialogue.
@Helifax Hi - I will be honest and say that, aside from agreeing with you about donations, I don't really understand your argument, sorry. I particularly don't understand your complete rejection of the notion that there is any kind of 3D Vision community - I think there is, it's small, and even fewer people participate that is true, but we help each other out, we share. Your argument that we don't go to work for free is really quite vacuous, I mean what on earth has that got to do with anything? - the notion that everything we do is, or should be, for payment because we live in a capitalist society is ridiculous. And the fact that we don't do everything else for free either has nothing to do with why we do *this* activity "for free". I do this because it's something I can do, I enjoy it, and to give back to a wider community that has given me free stuff for over 15 years now. The fact that it is not going back to the same people, or that some of them never give anything back themselves, is irrelevant. I donate money to charity, but the fact that I don't know who that money ends up with does not stop me donating. I am not averse to money, just so we are clear, I earn a very healthy 6-figure salary, drive an expensive BMW, and own a large 5 bed detached house etc - I like nice stuff, and I believe in fair payment for a fair days work just as much as the next person. I just don't believe you should be driven to try and extract money out of people at every opportunity. I guess you and me are just very different people, so let's agree to disagree and move on. Everyone knows our points of view now, and I am aware that I am just repeating myself anyway...
Coming full circle though, the scheme described by the OP in the first place is as close as I think you can get to an organized and equitable system that does not impose burden or expectation on potential game fixers - but I also note that no one has contributed much in the way of specifics or suggestions for how that might work yet so I'd personally like to hear more on that than to continue with the current line of dialogue.
So basically the vibe I am reading out of the many posts here is that the Helix 3D fixing community is in a catch 22 situation. We can't go pro because we would enter uncertain legal territory. We can't start a non profit donation system either, because that would stir up a lot of other issues such as pressure, deadlines and trouble-shooting-support.
In that case why don't we really try maximize efforts to educate our community members in terms of in depth tutorials and step by step instructions so that even beginners could start diving into the world of 3D Vision game fixing.
If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
So basically the vibe I am reading out of the many posts here is that the Helix 3D fixing community is in a catch 22 situation. We can't go pro because we would enter uncertain legal territory. We can't start a non profit donation system either, because that would stir up a lot of other issues such as pressure, deadlines and trouble-shooting-support.
In that case why don't we really try maximize efforts to educate our community members in terms of in depth tutorials and step by step instructions so that even beginners could start diving into the world of 3D Vision game fixing.
If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)
[quote="mike_ar69"]@Helifax Hi - I will be honest and say that, aside from agreeing with you about donations, I don't really understand your argument, sorry. I particularly don't understand your complete rejection of the notion that there is any kind of 3D Vision community - I think there is, it's small, and even fewer people participate that is true, but we help each other out, we share. Your argument that we don't go to work for free is really quite vacuous, I mean what on earth has that got to do with anything? - the notion that everything we do is, or should be, for payment because we live in a capitalist society is ridiculous. And the fact that we don't do everything else for free either has nothing to do with why we do *this* activity "for free". I do this because it's something I can do, I enjoy it, and to give back to a wider community that has given me free stuff for over 15 years now. The fact that it is not going back to the same people, or that some of them never give anything back themselves, is irrelevant. I donate money to charity, but the fact that I don't know who that money ends up with does not stop me donating. I am not averse to money, just so we are clear, I earn a very healthy 6-figure salary, drive an expensive BMW, and own a large 5 bed detached house etc - I like nice stuff, and I believe in fair payment for a fair days work just as much as the next person. I just don't believe you should be driven to try and extract money out of people at every opportunity. I guess you and me are just very different people, so let's agree to disagree and move on. Everyone knows our points of view now, and I am aware that I am just repeating myself anyway...
Coming full circle though, the scheme described by the OP in the first place is as close as I think you can get to an organized and equitable system that does not impose burden or expectation on potential game fixers - but I also note that no one has contributed much in the way of specifics or suggestions for how that might work yet so I'd personally like to hear more on that than to continue with the current line of dialogue.[/quote]
You missed my point entirely:))
The point wasn't about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". I am also not saying there isn't a 3D Vision community since any blind man can see that it is here. I am just saying that the current community should band up and collaborate (NOT ONLY ON THIS FORUM) but in real life as close as humanly possible.
The idea was simple. Make a business from it, get a salary, work full time give full dev cycle, full support etc, but I guess with your 6 figure digit:)) you aren't interested in that:)) (No offence AND NOTHING PERSONAL AND DON'T TAKE IT THE WRONG WAY, but I just find people that boast how much they earn and what house or car they drive a bit ridiculous since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about) :)) Money is not an issue for me also, but I would rather spend my days doing stuff like this rather than other stuff:))
But I guess no one wants to start this kind of thing. I just wonder if Tridef for example will pop up and offer some guys around here a job if they would accept it or not...:)
Also you got the idea wrong about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". THere is just so much a guy can do on his own or forum collaboration in his spare time without proper funding and the time required to put in such things...
If I wanted to extract money out of people...I think I would have done it by now:)) but I am also PRO and (VERY PRO) open-source!
mike_ar69 said:@Helifax Hi - I will be honest and say that, aside from agreeing with you about donations, I don't really understand your argument, sorry. I particularly don't understand your complete rejection of the notion that there is any kind of 3D Vision community - I think there is, it's small, and even fewer people participate that is true, but we help each other out, we share. Your argument that we don't go to work for free is really quite vacuous, I mean what on earth has that got to do with anything? - the notion that everything we do is, or should be, for payment because we live in a capitalist society is ridiculous. And the fact that we don't do everything else for free either has nothing to do with why we do *this* activity "for free". I do this because it's something I can do, I enjoy it, and to give back to a wider community that has given me free stuff for over 15 years now. The fact that it is not going back to the same people, or that some of them never give anything back themselves, is irrelevant. I donate money to charity, but the fact that I don't know who that money ends up with does not stop me donating. I am not averse to money, just so we are clear, I earn a very healthy 6-figure salary, drive an expensive BMW, and own a large 5 bed detached house etc - I like nice stuff, and I believe in fair payment for a fair days work just as much as the next person. I just don't believe you should be driven to try and extract money out of people at every opportunity. I guess you and me are just very different people, so let's agree to disagree and move on. Everyone knows our points of view now, and I am aware that I am just repeating myself anyway...
Coming full circle though, the scheme described by the OP in the first place is as close as I think you can get to an organized and equitable system that does not impose burden or expectation on potential game fixers - but I also note that no one has contributed much in the way of specifics or suggestions for how that might work yet so I'd personally like to hear more on that than to continue with the current line of dialogue.
You missed my point entirely:))
The point wasn't about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". I am also not saying there isn't a 3D Vision community since any blind man can see that it is here. I am just saying that the current community should band up and collaborate (NOT ONLY ON THIS FORUM) but in real life as close as humanly possible.
The idea was simple. Make a business from it, get a salary, work full time give full dev cycle, full support etc, but I guess with your 6 figure digit:)) you aren't interested in that:)) (No offence AND NOTHING PERSONAL AND DON'T TAKE IT THE WRONG WAY, but I just find people that boast how much they earn and what house or car they drive a bit ridiculous since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about) :)) Money is not an issue for me also, but I would rather spend my days doing stuff like this rather than other stuff:))
But I guess no one wants to start this kind of thing. I just wonder if Tridef for example will pop up and offer some guys around here a job if they would accept it or not...:)
Also you got the idea wrong about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". THere is just so much a guy can do on his own or forum collaboration in his spare time without proper funding and the time required to put in such things...
If I wanted to extract money out of people...I think I would have done it by now:)) but I am also PRO and (VERY PRO) open-source!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
I disagree with Helifax. Capitalistic society or not, things are constantly done out of love, passion or charity, in all societies. And this is our hobby, we love it, but it's not our job. We do not expect payment (thought it is certainly an endeavour worthy of payment)
The guys do these fixes because they are not done for us already, as we would expect, when we buy games or Nvidia hardware.
Totally agree with Mike. The sense of comunity is clear here on these forums, and it perhaps ties in with what I've just said, this sense of brotherhood against adversion, in our frustration to see this technology neglected by developers and its creators.
Donations are perfect for this thing so far, and I encourage all contributors like Helix, Eqzitara, Mike, Flugan etc to have a "donation" option. It's the least the rest of us can do to make ourselves feel better, for using your marvelous gifts while unable to contribute anything else ourselves.
I totally understand the OP's motivation behind this post. Many many times I felt the same urge and frustration, to just throw money at the community here, so that I could play the games I was interested in. But it's just not possible, in my opinion. Some of the reasons, I think:
[u]1. Rare skillset.[/u]
There are too few people who really understand the intricacies of DX11 shader manipulation or have the genius/intuition to undertake the creation of a wrapper. Those with teh skills are probably not interested in gaming. Or S3D give them headaches. The ones who are interested ... well, I don't know about you guys, but it gives me shivers ... you can count them on the fingers of a frostbit invalid hand missing a few fingers. Helix, Chiri/Elbarterino, do I dare say Flugan?
Looks like fixing 3D in games has a skillset requirement more esoteric than quantum engineering. No amount of money will create any breakthroughs.
[u]2. Shifting landscape[/u]
As soon as you fix a game, a patch breaks it. A new Nvidia driver may disable or break 3D in games. Different CRCs per intallation hardware. Different hardware issues (SLI vs. non-SLI, Windows versions, mouse input worries). Nobody can service that. Even a full time business would struggle.
Also, VR is coming, will these fixes even matter then? Would people be willing now to invest time and resources with such uncertainties looming not too far?
[u]3. Legal issues[/u]
Mentioned several times on these forums. Nobody knows the exact situation, but it may even be the main deterrent against Nvidia taking ownership of the shader fixing themselves (sure, like most of us, I also think it's money related - we're not a big enough market; but who really knows?)
[u]4. Logistics[/u]
What type of paying scheme could even be devised? Subscriptions were suggested, but in my opinion they're out of the question, due to points 2 and 3 - too difficult to offer these fixes as a service, plus it may be illegal. Pay per fix? Sure, I will definitely pay for individual fixes, and I would even go back to hit a hypotetical Purchase button on the Helix blog even after having used these fixes for free. But that's not under discussion here. The OP's hope was to see if money cannot accelerate the appearance of more fixes. But see point 1.
Sorry for the long post.
I could have just said: I WOULD DEFINITELY PAY FOR INDIVIDUAL FIXES.
Between 10 and 20 Euros (and that's more than what I pay for the games themselves, spoiled as we are by the Steam sales and backlog)
I disagree with Helifax. Capitalistic society or not, things are constantly done out of love, passion or charity, in all societies. And this is our hobby, we love it, but it's not our job. We do not expect payment (thought it is certainly an endeavour worthy of payment)
The guys do these fixes because they are not done for us already, as we would expect, when we buy games or Nvidia hardware.
Totally agree with Mike. The sense of comunity is clear here on these forums, and it perhaps ties in with what I've just said, this sense of brotherhood against adversion, in our frustration to see this technology neglected by developers and its creators.
Donations are perfect for this thing so far, and I encourage all contributors like Helix, Eqzitara, Mike, Flugan etc to have a "donation" option. It's the least the rest of us can do to make ourselves feel better, for using your marvelous gifts while unable to contribute anything else ourselves.
I totally understand the OP's motivation behind this post. Many many times I felt the same urge and frustration, to just throw money at the community here, so that I could play the games I was interested in. But it's just not possible, in my opinion. Some of the reasons, I think:
1. Rare skillset.
There are too few people who really understand the intricacies of DX11 shader manipulation or have the genius/intuition to undertake the creation of a wrapper. Those with teh skills are probably not interested in gaming. Or S3D give them headaches. The ones who are interested ... well, I don't know about you guys, but it gives me shivers ... you can count them on the fingers of a frostbit invalid hand missing a few fingers. Helix, Chiri/Elbarterino, do I dare say Flugan?
Looks like fixing 3D in games has a skillset requirement more esoteric than quantum engineering. No amount of money will create any breakthroughs.
2. Shifting landscape
As soon as you fix a game, a patch breaks it. A new Nvidia driver may disable or break 3D in games. Different CRCs per intallation hardware. Different hardware issues (SLI vs. non-SLI, Windows versions, mouse input worries). Nobody can service that. Even a full time business would struggle.
Also, VR is coming, will these fixes even matter then? Would people be willing now to invest time and resources with such uncertainties looming not too far?
3. Legal issues
Mentioned several times on these forums. Nobody knows the exact situation, but it may even be the main deterrent against Nvidia taking ownership of the shader fixing themselves (sure, like most of us, I also think it's money related - we're not a big enough market; but who really knows?)
4. Logistics
What type of paying scheme could even be devised? Subscriptions were suggested, but in my opinion they're out of the question, due to points 2 and 3 - too difficult to offer these fixes as a service, plus it may be illegal. Pay per fix? Sure, I will definitely pay for individual fixes, and I would even go back to hit a hypotetical Purchase button on the Helix blog even after having used these fixes for free. But that's not under discussion here. The OP's hope was to see if money cannot accelerate the appearance of more fixes. But see point 1.
Sorry for the long post.
I could have just said: I WOULD DEFINITELY PAY FOR INDIVIDUAL FIXES.
Between 10 and 20 Euros (and that's more than what I pay for the games themselves, spoiled as we are by the Steam sales and backlog)
[quote="Zappologist"]I disagree with Helifax. Capitalistic society or not, things are constantly done out of love, passion or charity, in all societies. And this is our hobby, we love it, but it's not our job. We do not expect payment (thought it is certainly an endeavour worthy of payment)
The guys do these fixes because they are not done for us already, as we would expect, when we buy games or Nvidia hardware.[/quote]
That was exactly the thing that I said...But rather than keeping it strictly as a hobby make something much bigger and better...
Zappologist said:I disagree with Helifax. Capitalistic society or not, things are constantly done out of love, passion or charity, in all societies. And this is our hobby, we love it, but it's not our job. We do not expect payment (thought it is certainly an endeavour worthy of payment)
The guys do these fixes because they are not done for us already, as we would expect, when we buy games or Nvidia hardware.
That was exactly the thing that I said...But rather than keeping it strictly as a hobby make something much bigger and better...
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
I'm slowing down the development of Project Flugan. There appears to be a huge divide in the community about how things should be handled and the almost total lack of collaboration.
I don't like the attitude of expecting me to deliver HelixMod for dx11.
I am not Helix. I have recently started a dx11 wrapper with a unique approach.
Nobody seems to care about the details just the end result.
A wrapper without a game is not that exciting.
I'm slowing down the development of Project Flugan. There appears to be a huge divide in the community about how things should be handled and the almost total lack of collaboration.
I don't like the attitude of expecting me to deliver HelixMod for dx11.
I am not Helix. I have recently started a dx11 wrapper with a unique approach.
Nobody seems to care about the details just the end result.
A wrapper without a game is not that exciting.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
[quote="Zappologist"]Different CRCs per intallation hardware.[/quote]This could be overcome by keeping the 'Source' of the Shaders that were fixed, using the CRC/Contents of the Source Shader to find a match and injecting the fix. I already have a simple script that does this.
Zappologist said:Different CRCs per intallation hardware.
This could be overcome by keeping the 'Source' of the Shaders that were fixed, using the CRC/Contents of the Source Shader to find a match and injecting the fix. I already have a simple script that does this.
[quote="oneofthe8devilz"]So basically the vibe I am reading out of the many posts here is that the Helix 3D fixing community is in a catch 22 situation. We can't go pro because we would enter uncertain legal territory. We can't start a non profit donation system either, because that would stir up a lot of other issues such as pressure, deadlines and trouble-shooting-support.
In that case why don't we really try maximize efforts to educate our community members in terms of in depth tutorials and step by step instructions so that even beginners could start diving into the world of 3D Vision game fixing.
If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
[/quote]
Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.
oneofthe8devilz said:So basically the vibe I am reading out of the many posts here is that the Helix 3D fixing community is in a catch 22 situation. We can't go pro because we would enter uncertain legal territory. We can't start a non profit donation system either, because that would stir up a lot of other issues such as pressure, deadlines and trouble-shooting-support.
In that case why don't we really try maximize efforts to educate our community members in terms of in depth tutorials and step by step instructions so that even beginners could start diving into the world of 3D Vision game fixing.
If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.
Good news Arma 3 does not crash the wrapper. I dumped 150 shaders in an infantry scenario.
Looking at vanilla Arma 3 with 3D Vision looks quite terrible. In 2D I thought it was quite pretty.
Both the hud and crosshair textures would probably need to be move further into the screen.
Best would be if you could place them at exact depth. But that would be nearly impossible.
Lightning and shadows are completely wrong.
It is indeed a game with many difficult problems.
I did buy the game just to figure out how it behaves with 3D Vision.
Probably not the best criteria when buying games.
[quote="mike_ar69"][quote="oneofthe8devilz"]If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?[/quote]Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.[/quote]I was working on a utility that, working off of a dump and a fix, will open the original Source Shader and the fixed Shader in Notepad++, side by side in separate panes so you can analyse what was done. You can even use it in-game, like BSE, to find the Shader if you don't know what/where it is. You can cycle through states in-game, between Fixed/Disabled and Original to find it and then Alt-Tab out to analyse it. Also it'll open the DX9Settings.ini if the current CRC was used in it as well ... I just keep getting sidetracked with other things :) ... but if anyone's interested I can try to focus on finalizing it and posting it with a summary of how to use it.
oneofthe8devilz said:If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.
I was working on a utility that, working off of a dump and a fix, will open the original Source Shader and the fixed Shader in Notepad++, side by side in separate panes so you can analyse what was done. You can even use it in-game, like BSE, to find the Shader if you don't know what/where it is. You can cycle through states in-game, between Fixed/Disabled and Original to find it and then Alt-Tab out to analyse it. Also it'll open the DX9Settings.ini if the current CRC was used in it as well ... I just keep getting sidetracked with other things :) ... but if anyone's interested I can try to focus on finalizing it and posting it with a summary of how to use it.
I understand the motivation to try to help more fixes come about, and thus thinking whether money could do that. Unfortunately we already have a good test case for that scenario, and it didn't work.
Agree with the approach or not, Chiri tried to get something working along that lines, because he wanted to use his skills to work on games and fixes, not get a regular IT job. But it didn't work. He could have gotten to the $5K number, but it would have been a stretch for a lot of people here. There just isn't enough money in it to even pay for a single person's salary. Or more exactly, it's too hard to reach enough people to make it work.
I think that most people here contribute because they want to, and they actually prefer it to not be a for-money situation, because I think we all get enough of that the rest of the time.
Adding money to the equation at the level we can expect is simply not going to make any new fixes come out faster or fix games that otherwise are broken. There are only a small handful of people that can actually do this, and I'm always grateful that they choose to spend precious time on it.
It seems to me that the best compromise is to let people accept and give donations as they see fit. No obligations, no expectations.
I understand the motivation to try to help more fixes come about, and thus thinking whether money could do that. Unfortunately we already have a good test case for that scenario, and it didn't work.
Agree with the approach or not, Chiri tried to get something working along that lines, because he wanted to use his skills to work on games and fixes, not get a regular IT job. But it didn't work. He could have gotten to the $5K number, but it would have been a stretch for a lot of people here. There just isn't enough money in it to even pay for a single person's salary. Or more exactly, it's too hard to reach enough people to make it work.
I think that most people here contribute because they want to, and they actually prefer it to not be a for-money situation, because I think we all get enough of that the rest of the time.
Adding money to the equation at the level we can expect is simply not going to make any new fixes come out faster or fix games that otherwise are broken. There are only a small handful of people that can actually do this, and I'm always grateful that they choose to spend precious time on it.
It seems to me that the best compromise is to let people accept and give donations as they see fit. No obligations, no expectations.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607 Latest 3Dmigoto Release Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
[quote="TsaebehT"][quote="mike_ar69"][quote="oneofthe8devilz"]If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?[/quote]Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.[/quote]I was working on a utility that, working off of a dump and a fix, will open the original Source Shader and the fixed Shader in Notepad++, side by side in separate panes so you can analyse what was done. You can even use it in-game, like BSE, to find the Shader if you don't know what/where it is. You can cycle through states in-game, between Fixed/Disabled and Original to find it and then Alt-Tab out to analyse it. Also it'll open the DX9Settings.ini if the current CRC was used in it as well ... I just keep getting sidetracked with other things :) ... but if anyone's interested I can try to focus on finalizing it and posting it with a summary of how to use it.[/quote]
Documenting all of your utilities would be a great addition to any collective documentation on this :-) We can put things on the blog page bo3b started.
oneofthe8devilz said:If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.
I was working on a utility that, working off of a dump and a fix, will open the original Source Shader and the fixed Shader in Notepad++, side by side in separate panes so you can analyse what was done. You can even use it in-game, like BSE, to find the Shader if you don't know what/where it is. You can cycle through states in-game, between Fixed/Disabled and Original to find it and then Alt-Tab out to analyse it. Also it'll open the DX9Settings.ini if the current CRC was used in it as well ... I just keep getting sidetracked with other things :) ... but if anyone's interested I can try to focus on finalizing it and posting it with a summary of how to use it.
Documenting all of your utilities would be a great addition to any collective documentation on this :-) We can put things on the blog page bo3b started.
I still think a donation system for [b]completed work[/b] would be just fine, even for those that say they aren't interested. I mean for ONLY work done in the past and worded that way so there would be no mistaking it. Such as:
"This donation account is only for completed fixes already released. It is meant only to be a thank you for quantifiable enjoyment you have gained using previously released fixes or partial fixes still being worked on whose development may cease at any time. Please only donate without any intention of asking for more fixes for any games with the knowledge of your donations being known to the programmers. Please only donate knowing that any and all work on future games may stop at any time. The programers work in their free time, they will have children, or a wife, or friends or other hobbies and obligations, a job, etc. Again, please DO NOT inquire about a fixer's interest in upcoming games, or ETA on current work IF the fixer knows you have donated. Please do not list your forum username in the donation information section.
or something...
I understand this doesn't fix every issue, but i really want us to buy Helix and everyone something :D
I still think a donation system for completed work would be just fine, even for those that say they aren't interested. I mean for ONLY work done in the past and worded that way so there would be no mistaking it. Such as:
"This donation account is only for completed fixes already released. It is meant only to be a thank you for quantifiable enjoyment you have gained using previously released fixes or partial fixes still being worked on whose development may cease at any time. Please only donate without any intention of asking for more fixes for any games with the knowledge of your donations being known to the programmers. Please only donate knowing that any and all work on future games may stop at any time. The programers work in their free time, they will have children, or a wife, or friends or other hobbies and obligations, a job, etc. Again, please DO NOT inquire about a fixer's interest in upcoming games, or ETA on current work IF the fixer knows you have donated. Please do not list your forum username in the donation information section.
or something...
I understand this doesn't fix every issue, but i really want us to buy Helix and everyone something :D
Everyone needs to slow down and think about this.
Right now, we have three wrappers. Helix's, which isn't released. Helix is opposed to donations, meaning you can't launch a business to profit from his work. Chiri's, which seems sadly abandoned, and you can't use it commercially either. Flugan's isn't done yet, and what he chooses to do with it is his decision to make.
Zappologist has done a great job of summarising the potential issues, and I don't think a business is a good idea.
I'd personally like to take this moment to implore Flugan to reconsider slowing development. You've got something really promising so far, and it would be a great shame and loss were you to give up on it now. Please don't be discouraged by the dramas here, I'm sure we'll come to some kind of reasonable agreement.
I'd actually like to make a proposal of my own. Flugan, perhaps you might consider starting a development blog? That would be interesting and informative for the community, and could later serve another purpose. Once you started producing fixes, you could set something up similar to Helix's page, but like this.
Blog post for each fix, with a download link
Download link takes you to a download page, with a large notice, similar to what Libertine has written. You could ask people for an optional donation at the time of download, explaining that these fixes take time, skill, and money (to buy new games). Hopefully there will be multiple people making fixes by that stage, and there can be an agreed split for the donations (half to you, half to the fix creator - the exact details of that can be discussed privately between you and the fixers). In the case where multiple people collaborate on a fix, I'm sure we're all adult enough to decide how to split donations fairly.
This method keeps fixes free for those who wants them, provides more encouragement for donations, and should maintain the friendly community we've got here. It should also be quite simple to set up and manage too.
Right now, we have three wrappers. Helix's, which isn't released. Helix is opposed to donations, meaning you can't launch a business to profit from his work. Chiri's, which seems sadly abandoned, and you can't use it commercially either. Flugan's isn't done yet, and what he chooses to do with it is his decision to make.
Zappologist has done a great job of summarising the potential issues, and I don't think a business is a good idea.
I'd personally like to take this moment to implore Flugan to reconsider slowing development. You've got something really promising so far, and it would be a great shame and loss were you to give up on it now. Please don't be discouraged by the dramas here, I'm sure we'll come to some kind of reasonable agreement.
I'd actually like to make a proposal of my own. Flugan, perhaps you might consider starting a development blog? That would be interesting and informative for the community, and could later serve another purpose. Once you started producing fixes, you could set something up similar to Helix's page, but like this.
Blog post for each fix, with a download link
Download link takes you to a download page, with a large notice, similar to what Libertine has written. You could ask people for an optional donation at the time of download, explaining that these fixes take time, skill, and money (to buy new games). Hopefully there will be multiple people making fixes by that stage, and there can be an agreed split for the donations (half to you, half to the fix creator - the exact details of that can be discussed privately between you and the fixers). In the case where multiple people collaborate on a fix, I'm sure we're all adult enough to decide how to split donations fairly.
This method keeps fixes free for those who wants them, provides more encouragement for donations, and should maintain the friendly community we've got here. It should also be quite simple to set up and manage too.
I'll also point out that Helix seems to be against taking donations, and he has contributed an incredible amount to our little community. If people are going to use his work to make money, I can't imagine he'll be pleased, or okay with that.
On top of that, you have nVidia. I can't imagine they're going to be pleased with people using parts of their work for profit either. I'm sure they don't care about a few little donations, but you can be certain they'll be playing attention if an actual business is started.
Coming full circle though, the scheme described by the OP in the first place is as close as I think you can get to an organized and equitable system that does not impose burden or expectation on potential game fixers - but I also note that no one has contributed much in the way of specifics or suggestions for how that might work yet so I'd personally like to hear more on that than to continue with the current line of dialogue.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
In that case why don't we really try maximize efforts to educate our community members in terms of in depth tutorials and step by step instructions so that even beginners could start diving into the world of 3D Vision game fixing.
If we can't optimize the game fixing process by throwing money at it, maybe by making tutorials that can be understood by the average Joe might be the key to improve the process of 3D game fixing output in general ?
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)
Check out our mods at
moddb or the SPS Homepage
You missed my point entirely:))
The point wasn't about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". I am also not saying there isn't a 3D Vision community since any blind man can see that it is here. I am just saying that the current community should band up and collaborate (NOT ONLY ON THIS FORUM) but in real life as close as humanly possible.
The idea was simple. Make a business from it, get a salary, work full time give full dev cycle, full support etc, but I guess with your 6 figure digit:)) you aren't interested in that:)) (No offence AND NOTHING PERSONAL AND DON'T TAKE IT THE WRONG WAY, but I just find people that boast how much they earn and what house or car they drive a bit ridiculous since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about) :)) Money is not an issue for me also, but I would rather spend my days doing stuff like this rather than other stuff:))
But I guess no one wants to start this kind of thing. I just wonder if Tridef for example will pop up and offer some guys around here a job if they would accept it or not...:)
Also you got the idea wrong about "extract money out of people at every opportunity". THere is just so much a guy can do on his own or forum collaboration in his spare time without proper funding and the time required to put in such things...
If I wanted to extract money out of people...I think I would have done it by now:)) but I am also PRO and (VERY PRO) open-source!
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
The guys do these fixes because they are not done for us already, as we would expect, when we buy games or Nvidia hardware.
Totally agree with Mike. The sense of comunity is clear here on these forums, and it perhaps ties in with what I've just said, this sense of brotherhood against adversion, in our frustration to see this technology neglected by developers and its creators.
Donations are perfect for this thing so far, and I encourage all contributors like Helix, Eqzitara, Mike, Flugan etc to have a "donation" option. It's the least the rest of us can do to make ourselves feel better, for using your marvelous gifts while unable to contribute anything else ourselves.
I totally understand the OP's motivation behind this post. Many many times I felt the same urge and frustration, to just throw money at the community here, so that I could play the games I was interested in. But it's just not possible, in my opinion. Some of the reasons, I think:
1. Rare skillset.
There are too few people who really understand the intricacies of DX11 shader manipulation or have the genius/intuition to undertake the creation of a wrapper. Those with teh skills are probably not interested in gaming. Or S3D give them headaches. The ones who are interested ... well, I don't know about you guys, but it gives me shivers ... you can count them on the fingers of a frostbit invalid hand missing a few fingers. Helix, Chiri/Elbarterino, do I dare say Flugan?
Looks like fixing 3D in games has a skillset requirement more esoteric than quantum engineering. No amount of money will create any breakthroughs.
2. Shifting landscape
As soon as you fix a game, a patch breaks it. A new Nvidia driver may disable or break 3D in games. Different CRCs per intallation hardware. Different hardware issues (SLI vs. non-SLI, Windows versions, mouse input worries). Nobody can service that. Even a full time business would struggle.
Also, VR is coming, will these fixes even matter then? Would people be willing now to invest time and resources with such uncertainties looming not too far?
3. Legal issues
Mentioned several times on these forums. Nobody knows the exact situation, but it may even be the main deterrent against Nvidia taking ownership of the shader fixing themselves (sure, like most of us, I also think it's money related - we're not a big enough market; but who really knows?)
4. Logistics
What type of paying scheme could even be devised? Subscriptions were suggested, but in my opinion they're out of the question, due to points 2 and 3 - too difficult to offer these fixes as a service, plus it may be illegal. Pay per fix? Sure, I will definitely pay for individual fixes, and I would even go back to hit a hypotetical Purchase button on the Helix blog even after having used these fixes for free. But that's not under discussion here. The OP's hope was to see if money cannot accelerate the appearance of more fixes. But see point 1.
Sorry for the long post.
I could have just said: I WOULD DEFINITELY PAY FOR INDIVIDUAL FIXES.
Between 10 and 20 Euros (and that's more than what I pay for the games themselves, spoiled as we are by the Steam sales and backlog)
That was exactly the thing that I said...But rather than keeping it strictly as a hobby make something much bigger and better...
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
I don't like the attitude of expecting me to deliver HelixMod for dx11.
I am not Helix. I have recently started a dx11 wrapper with a unique approach.
Nobody seems to care about the details just the end result.
A wrapper without a game is not that exciting.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
Spot on. I have started writing a guide based on the games I have fixed, what the dx9settings entries are, top tips and so on. It'll take a while, I only started a few weeks ago, and it's an eclectic mind dump right now, but I am hoping it will help people over the earlier hurdles when learning this stuff.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
Looking at vanilla Arma 3 with 3D Vision looks quite terrible. In 2D I thought it was quite pretty.
Both the hud and crosshair textures would probably need to be move further into the screen.
Best would be if you could place them at exact depth. But that would be nearly impossible.
Lightning and shadows are completely wrong.
It is indeed a game with many difficult problems.
I did buy the game just to figure out how it behaves with 3D Vision.
Probably not the best criteria when buying games.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
[MonitorSizeOverride][Global/Base Profile Tweaks][Depth=IPD]
Agree with the approach or not, Chiri tried to get something working along that lines, because he wanted to use his skills to work on games and fixes, not get a regular IT job. But it didn't work. He could have gotten to the $5K number, but it would have been a stretch for a lot of people here. There just isn't enough money in it to even pay for a single person's salary. Or more exactly, it's too hard to reach enough people to make it work.
I think that most people here contribute because they want to, and they actually prefer it to not be a for-money situation, because I think we all get enough of that the rest of the time.
Adding money to the equation at the level we can expect is simply not going to make any new fixes come out faster or fix games that otherwise are broken. There are only a small handful of people that can actually do this, and I'm always grateful that they choose to spend precious time on it.
It seems to me that the best compromise is to let people accept and give donations as they see fit. No obligations, no expectations.
Acer H5360 (1280x720@120Hz) - ASUS VG248QE with GSync mod - 3D Vision 1&2 - Driver 372.54
GTX 970 - i5-4670K@4.2GHz - 12GB RAM - Win7x64+evilKB2670838 - 4 Disk X25 RAID
SAGER NP9870-S - GTX 980 - i7-6700K - Win10 Pro 1607
Latest 3Dmigoto Release
Bo3b's School for ShaderHackers
Documenting all of your utilities would be a great addition to any collective documentation on this :-) We can put things on the blog page bo3b started.
Rig: Intel i7-8700K @4.7GHz, 16Gb Ram, SSD, GTX 1080Ti, Win10x64, Asus VG278
"This donation account is only for completed fixes already released. It is meant only to be a thank you for quantifiable enjoyment you have gained using previously released fixes or partial fixes still being worked on whose development may cease at any time. Please only donate without any intention of asking for more fixes for any games with the knowledge of your donations being known to the programmers. Please only donate knowing that any and all work on future games may stop at any time. The programers work in their free time, they will have children, or a wife, or friends or other hobbies and obligations, a job, etc. Again, please DO NOT inquire about a fixer's interest in upcoming games, or ETA on current work IF the fixer knows you have donated. Please do not list your forum username in the donation information section.
or something...
I understand this doesn't fix every issue, but i really want us to buy Helix and everyone something :D
46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530
Right now, we have three wrappers. Helix's, which isn't released. Helix is opposed to donations, meaning you can't launch a business to profit from his work. Chiri's, which seems sadly abandoned, and you can't use it commercially either. Flugan's isn't done yet, and what he chooses to do with it is his decision to make.
Zappologist has done a great job of summarising the potential issues, and I don't think a business is a good idea.
I'd personally like to take this moment to implore Flugan to reconsider slowing development. You've got something really promising so far, and it would be a great shame and loss were you to give up on it now. Please don't be discouraged by the dramas here, I'm sure we'll come to some kind of reasonable agreement.
I'd actually like to make a proposal of my own. Flugan, perhaps you might consider starting a development blog? That would be interesting and informative for the community, and could later serve another purpose. Once you started producing fixes, you could set something up similar to Helix's page, but like this.
Blog post for each fix, with a download link
Download link takes you to a download page, with a large notice, similar to what Libertine has written. You could ask people for an optional donation at the time of download, explaining that these fixes take time, skill, and money (to buy new games). Hopefully there will be multiple people making fixes by that stage, and there can be an agreed split for the donations (half to you, half to the fix creator - the exact details of that can be discussed privately between you and the fixers). In the case where multiple people collaborate on a fix, I'm sure we're all adult enough to decide how to split donations fairly.
This method keeps fixes free for those who wants them, provides more encouragement for donations, and should maintain the friendly community we've got here. It should also be quite simple to set up and manage too.