Indigomod - DX11 wrapper by Chiri and elbarterino - Bioshock Infinite
21 / 28
I first want to say how i'm grateful and I admire both helix and chiri for their commitment to this community.
now even if they do not finish their project I would like to know who would still be in to push the campaign to reach its 5k objective...that way they may feel better about taking their hard earned money given people are still contributing knowing all the facts and they may decide to go on and finish it after all.
let's start a simple list stating that if we reach 10 persons (ie less than 100 per person needed), we divide the gap by the number of persons on last campaign day so each one contribute this amount and the goal is reached...then it's up to these guys to decide....
who's in?
I first want to say how i'm grateful and I admire both helix and chiri for their commitment to this community.
now even if they do not finish their project I would like to know who would still be in to push the campaign to reach its 5k objective...that way they may feel better about taking their hard earned money given people are still contributing knowing all the facts and they may decide to go on and finish it after all.
let's start a simple list stating that if we reach 10 persons (ie less than 100 per person needed), we divide the gap by the number of persons on last campaign day so each one contribute this amount and the goal is reached...then it's up to these guys to decide....
[s]crap, I really want to stay out of this discussion.
If we do so, we also decide what will happen with the money of other donaters who might think differently.[/s]
pbareges, they've said they want to shut down the campaign. If they change their minds, maybe we can talk about it. But as Schmeltzer rightly pointed out, doing that would not only commit our money, but the money of everyone else involved - for a project that's officially cancelled. It wouldn't be fair.
pbareges, they've said they want to shut down the campaign. If they change their minds, maybe we can talk about it. But as Schmeltzer rightly pointed out, doing that would not only commit our money, but the money of everyone else involved - for a project that's officially cancelled. It wouldn't be fair.
[quote="foreverseeking"]
The fact it was announced before indigomod's campaign was finished was a very good thing. It meant that people could still support indigomod (as they strongly did) despite knowing that helix mod was just around the corner. That meant:
- people arnt pissed off at Helix
- people can't be angry with indigomod, as they knew all the infomation before campaign was over.
Win win.So why was it pulled? They still get the money from very eager and willing donators. It doesn't make sense.[/quote]Woah... Hold on. There are 100+ donors to that mod. You can't just assume that they're all "very eager and willing" now that the Helix fix is known. Speak for yourself.
I am one of those donors, and I am [i]not[/i] "very eager" for my money to go towards a fix that is redundant. I've been looking at you guys pledging to keep donating until 5k is met with slight incredulity, watching as you intend to throw away my money.
If the 5K is met, and my money is taken, I will be annoyed. Not at Helix. Not at Chiri. At [b][u]you[/u][/b], and everyone else who kept pumping money into the indiegogo campaign after Chiri explicitly asked them not to. I'll only be [i]slightly[/i] annoyed, because I only gave 70 bucks. If I had given several hundred (as I was planning to in the last days), I would have been very annoyed.
Yes, as I have demonstrated, I have a lot of sympathy for Chiri and the other guys for how this has turned out for them. But that doesn't mean that I want to continue to throw my money into something that is no longer necessary.
If Chiri and co. had taken my money and run, despite their solution now being redundant, I also would have been annoyed. It would have been unethical of them to do so, in my opinion (and probably some other donors' too)
So the "Win Win" you described above is not a win win at all. It does little of benefit to Helix, but screws over the indiemod guys, and puts the donors' money at risk.
The timing of Helix's announcement was unfortunate. I don't know if it was spiteful or just clumsy, or if he simply had no other choice, but it definitely wasn't ideal.
Having said that, I agree with you that the onus was on the indiegomod people to have communicated better with Helix (though from what I gather he doesn't make communicating with him easy, as he seems to be pretty private). Like you said, they were the newcomers, so they needed to scout the terrain properly. As we all know, their whole campaign was a bit slapdash at the start. They obviously didn't plan things incredibly well.
I don't think their slightly poor planning is a reason to attack them now, however. Give them a break - they are the only losers in this situation. Helix wins, because his fix works and everyone loves him. The community wins, because we all get a fix for free.
The only losers in this situation are Chiri and co, because they put in long hours into something, and now have nothing to show for it. We are the winners in this outcome, so us chastising them at this points just seems to be unnecessarily adding insult to injury.
foreverseeking said:
The fact it was announced before indigomod's campaign was finished was a very good thing. It meant that people could still support indigomod (as they strongly did) despite knowing that helix mod was just around the corner. That meant:
- people arnt pissed off at Helix
- people can't be angry with indigomod, as they knew all the infomation before campaign was over.
Win win.So why was it pulled? They still get the money from very eager and willing donators. It doesn't make sense.
Woah... Hold on. There are 100+ donors to that mod. You can't just assume that they're all "very eager and willing" now that the Helix fix is known. Speak for yourself.
I am one of those donors, and I am not "very eager" for my money to go towards a fix that is redundant. I've been looking at you guys pledging to keep donating until 5k is met with slight incredulity, watching as you intend to throw away my money.
If the 5K is met, and my money is taken, I will be annoyed. Not at Helix. Not at Chiri. At you, and everyone else who kept pumping money into the indiegogo campaign after Chiri explicitly asked them not to. I'll only be slightly annoyed, because I only gave 70 bucks. If I had given several hundred (as I was planning to in the last days), I would have been very annoyed.
Yes, as I have demonstrated, I have a lot of sympathy for Chiri and the other guys for how this has turned out for them. But that doesn't mean that I want to continue to throw my money into something that is no longer necessary.
If Chiri and co. had taken my money and run, despite their solution now being redundant, I also would have been annoyed. It would have been unethical of them to do so, in my opinion (and probably some other donors' too)
So the "Win Win" you described above is not a win win at all. It does little of benefit to Helix, but screws over the indiemod guys, and puts the donors' money at risk.
The timing of Helix's announcement was unfortunate. I don't know if it was spiteful or just clumsy, or if he simply had no other choice, but it definitely wasn't ideal.
Having said that, I agree with you that the onus was on the indiegomod people to have communicated better with Helix (though from what I gather he doesn't make communicating with him easy, as he seems to be pretty private). Like you said, they were the newcomers, so they needed to scout the terrain properly. As we all know, their whole campaign was a bit slapdash at the start. They obviously didn't plan things incredibly well.
I don't think their slightly poor planning is a reason to attack them now, however. Give them a break - they are the only losers in this situation. Helix wins, because his fix works and everyone loves him. The community wins, because we all get a fix for free.
The only losers in this situation are Chiri and co, because they put in long hours into something, and now have nothing to show for it. We are the winners in this outcome, so us chastising them at this points just seems to be unnecessarily adding insult to injury.
[quote="Volnaiskra"]
I am one of those donors, and I am [i]not[/i] "very eager" for my money to go towards a fix that is redundant. I've been looking at you guys pledging to keep donating until 5k is met with slight incredulity, watching as you intend to throw away my money.
If the 5K is met, and my money is taken, I will be annoyed. Not at Helix. Not at Chiri. At [b][u]you[/u][/b], and everyone else who kept pumping money into the indiegogo campaign after Chiri explicitly asked them not to. I'll only be [i]slightly[/i] annoyed, because I only gave 70 bucks. If I had given several hundred (as I was planning to in the last days), I would have been very annoyed.[/quote]
That is the first that you have said you did [u]not[/u] want that campaign to go ahead, and that is the first time I have read anyone on these forums saying they did [u]not[/u] want their original donation to go ahead. What I stated was that all I had read was that donators that had spoken were 100% for continuing the campaign. That is now not that case, but what I said before was still a fact. Open up a donation page, and most of those donors have expressed they are still willing to donate. Win win. Do tell how that isn't the case?
As for giving them a break, they posted a snarky message on their forum aimed at the community despite having so much support here. They attacked Helix and condescended him and his actions, and made a clear message that Helix and we should all feel guilty for accepting free work, and that we should have paid them instead. Within those attacks was also an attack on the community as a whole for not stoking up more more for their cause... and that no wonder Nvidia gave up (despite their shaky original mission statement, and asking for 5k on something that they could not even guarantee would be released in full working order)... that is 2x what I make in a month. Yeah teaching salary sucks.
I'm sorry that you think such behaviour is acceptable. I personally do not.
Volnaiskra said:
I am one of those donors, and I am not "very eager" for my money to go towards a fix that is redundant. I've been looking at you guys pledging to keep donating until 5k is met with slight incredulity, watching as you intend to throw away my money.
If the 5K is met, and my money is taken, I will be annoyed. Not at Helix. Not at Chiri. At you, and everyone else who kept pumping money into the indiegogo campaign after Chiri explicitly asked them not to. I'll only be slightly annoyed, because I only gave 70 bucks. If I had given several hundred (as I was planning to in the last days), I would have been very annoyed.
That is the first that you have said you did not want that campaign to go ahead, and that is the first time I have read anyone on these forums saying they did not want their original donation to go ahead. What I stated was that all I had read was that donators that had spoken were 100% for continuing the campaign. That is now not that case, but what I said before was still a fact. Open up a donation page, and most of those donors have expressed they are still willing to donate. Win win. Do tell how that isn't the case?
As for giving them a break, they posted a snarky message on their forum aimed at the community despite having so much support here. They attacked Helix and condescended him and his actions, and made a clear message that Helix and we should all feel guilty for accepting free work, and that we should have paid them instead. Within those attacks was also an attack on the community as a whole for not stoking up more more for their cause... and that no wonder Nvidia gave up (despite their shaky original mission statement, and asking for 5k on something that they could not even guarantee would be released in full working order)... that is 2x what I make in a month. Yeah teaching salary sucks.
I'm sorry that you think such behaviour is acceptable. I personally do not.
I have no doubt that if Helix accepted donations he would recieve donations.
He is clearly not motivated by money. Donations would not provide a significant income stream and might be a big hassle when it comes to taxes.
He is clearly self-motivated with the biggest obstacle being lack of time. He mentioned during spring that dx11 would not be possible until summer. Obviously many people hoped he would make a dx11 wrapper but he was smart enough not to commit.
The reason he delivers is because his own motivation. I can see no reason for him to spend that amount of time on Bioshock Infinite unless he want to play it himself.
I have no doubt that if Helix accepted donations he would recieve donations.
He is clearly not motivated by money. Donations would not provide a significant income stream and might be a big hassle when it comes to taxes.
He is clearly self-motivated with the biggest obstacle being lack of time. He mentioned during spring that dx11 would not be possible until summer. Obviously many people hoped he would make a dx11 wrapper but he was smart enough not to commit.
The reason he delivers is because his own motivation. I can see no reason for him to spend that amount of time on Bioshock Infinite unless he want to play it himself.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
[quote="foreverseeking"]That is the first that you have said you did [u]not[/u] want that campaign to go ahead, and that is the first time I have read anyone on these forums saying they did [u]not[/u] want their original donation to go ahead. What I stated was that all I had read was that donators that had spoken were 100% for continuing the campaign. That is now not that case, but what I said before was still a fact. Open up a donation page, and most of those donors have expressed they are still willing to donate. Win win. Do tell how that isn't the case?
As for giving them a break, they posted a snarky message on their forum aimed at the community despite having so much support here. They attacked Helix and condescended him and his actions, and made a clear message that Helix and we should all feel guilty for accepting free work, and that we should have paid them instead. Within those attacks was also an attack on the community as a whole for not stoking up more more for their cause... and that no wonder Nvidia gave up (despite their shaky original mission statement, and asking for 5k on something that they could not even guarantee would be released in full working order)... that is 2x what I make in a month. Yeah teaching salary sucks.
I'm sorry that you think such behaviour is acceptable. I personally do not.
[/quote]
Whether or not me or anyone else stated that we don't want our money wasted on a redundant and possibly inferior product should not matter. It should be common sense. You may not have grasped this, but others did:
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]pbareges, they've said they want to shut down the campaign. If they change their minds, maybe we can talk about it. But as Schmeltzer rightly pointed out, doing that would not only commit our money, but the money of everyone else involved - for a project that's officially cancelled. It wouldn't be fair.[/quote]
If you and a few others want to keep giving money to a dying horse, that's your business. But you have no right to drag everyone else's money into it. If you and other diehards really feel strongly about an alternate solution, then talk Chiri into starting a new campaign for that purpose, so that the rest of us can get our money back.
This strikes me as common sense. PirateGuybrush knew it, and Schmeltzer knew it. The indiegomod guys clearly knew it, which is why they felt compelled to abandon the project immediately and ask people to keep their money. And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.
foreverseeking said:That is the first that you have said you did not want that campaign to go ahead, and that is the first time I have read anyone on these forums saying they did not want their original donation to go ahead. What I stated was that all I had read was that donators that had spoken were 100% for continuing the campaign. That is now not that case, but what I said before was still a fact. Open up a donation page, and most of those donors have expressed they are still willing to donate. Win win. Do tell how that isn't the case?
As for giving them a break, they posted a snarky message on their forum aimed at the community despite having so much support here. They attacked Helix and condescended him and his actions, and made a clear message that Helix and we should all feel guilty for accepting free work, and that we should have paid them instead. Within those attacks was also an attack on the community as a whole for not stoking up more more for their cause... and that no wonder Nvidia gave up (despite their shaky original mission statement, and asking for 5k on something that they could not even guarantee would be released in full working order)... that is 2x what I make in a month. Yeah teaching salary sucks.
I'm sorry that you think such behaviour is acceptable. I personally do not.
Whether or not me or anyone else stated that we don't want our money wasted on a redundant and possibly inferior product should not matter. It should be common sense. You may not have grasped this, but others did:
Pirateguybrush said:pbareges, they've said they want to shut down the campaign. If they change their minds, maybe we can talk about it. But as Schmeltzer rightly pointed out, doing that would not only commit our money, but the money of everyone else involved - for a project that's officially cancelled. It wouldn't be fair.
If you and a few others want to keep giving money to a dying horse, that's your business. But you have no right to drag everyone else's money into it. If you and other diehards really feel strongly about an alternate solution, then talk Chiri into starting a new campaign for that purpose, so that the rest of us can get our money back.
This strikes me as common sense. PirateGuybrush knew it, and Schmeltzer knew it. The indiegomod guys clearly knew it, which is why they felt compelled to abandon the project immediately and ask people to keep their money. And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.
Oh boy...Conspiracies and Economics...what does it have to do with the project? Nothing...
Everyone is entitled to work in their time on what they want or to ask money for their work which I find it OK.
If someone is deciding to do something and share it free for the community is out of passion of the actual thing.
I thought the wrapper idea was awesome, and I still think they should release it at the end of the campaign. Once they do it everyone will see that their time and work and money was justified....
All this talk about conspiracies and one "killing" the other is bollocks ...This is the NORMAL way of things in a free market environment...so no one should be offended..
I am not taking anyone's side. I am just in the middle seeing the good in both projects.
Oh boy...Conspiracies and Economics...what does it have to do with the project? Nothing...
Everyone is entitled to work in their time on what they want or to ask money for their work which I find it OK.
If someone is deciding to do something and share it free for the community is out of passion of the actual thing.
I thought the wrapper idea was awesome, and I still think they should release it at the end of the campaign. Once they do it everyone will see that their time and work and money was justified....
All this talk about conspiracies and one "killing" the other is bollocks ...This is the NORMAL way of things in a free market environment...so no one should be offended..
I am not taking anyone's side. I am just in the middle seeing the good in both projects.
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[quote="Volnaiskra"] And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod. [/quote]
I really don't want to be involved with this thread, but seriously wtf?
Can everyone butt out and stop trying to fill in the blanks?
Helix didn't know of campaign till I told him. I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me. He had already been working on wrapper and stated he was going to be. I asked him to upload his shots onto 3d visionlive when he said he was happy with his progress. I in part wanted people aware because its not fair for people to throw such excessive amounts of money without knowing. I believe Helix reached same conclusion and decided to release a beta when he saw that people were curious about shots.
People need to stop either pretending they know all the answers. There was not going to be any winner in this situation. There was no good outcome. Helix does nothing, a worse patch comes out that you all pay for and then he releases his? How is that a good outcome[dont bother to answer]? Who would apoligize to the people unhappy with this results and how they spent their money? Helix doesn't deal with money so he sure as hell shouldn't.
Were they upset? Sure, they had the right to be though. They didn't go off the wall so don't need to worry about defending anyone's honor.
They handled it very well imo, they could of probably still made the money needed but they didn't feel it would be right. They couldn't compete with Helix especially since his fix was free and no offense but it seems superior. It was noble for them to give up campaign.
Could this have been handled better on both sides? Sure.
There are no villains in this story. Stop trying to write them in.
Let this topic die. Let's see what happens when things calm down. There are no sides. No one's asking anyone to pick one so don't feel the need. You want to piss off probably the most skilled people who are willing to put insane amounts of time into this type of thing. Go ahead. Enjoy the results...
Otherwise let it go. And don't try to keep this fund going. You are going against the people who matters wishes.
This was a bad situation, but no one involved is a bad person. You want to post with good wishes and hope for future. Go ahead, but as far as campaign is concerned they decided its done.
Volnaiskra said: And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.
I really don't want to be involved with this thread, but seriously wtf?
Can everyone butt out and stop trying to fill in the blanks?
Helix didn't know of campaign till I told him. I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me. He had already been working on wrapper and stated he was going to be. I asked him to upload his shots onto 3d visionlive when he said he was happy with his progress. I in part wanted people aware because its not fair for people to throw such excessive amounts of money without knowing. I believe Helix reached same conclusion and decided to release a beta when he saw that people were curious about shots.
People need to stop either pretending they know all the answers. There was not going to be any winner in this situation. There was no good outcome. Helix does nothing, a worse patch comes out that you all pay for and then he releases his? How is that a good outcome[dont bother to answer]? Who would apoligize to the people unhappy with this results and how they spent their money? Helix doesn't deal with money so he sure as hell shouldn't.
Were they upset? Sure, they had the right to be though. They didn't go off the wall so don't need to worry about defending anyone's honor.
They handled it very well imo, they could of probably still made the money needed but they didn't feel it would be right. They couldn't compete with Helix especially since his fix was free and no offense but it seems superior. It was noble for them to give up campaign.
Could this have been handled better on both sides? Sure.
There are no villains in this story. Stop trying to write them in.
Let this topic die. Let's see what happens when things calm down. There are no sides. No one's asking anyone to pick one so don't feel the need. You want to piss off probably the most skilled people who are willing to put insane amounts of time into this type of thing. Go ahead. Enjoy the results...
Otherwise let it go. And don't try to keep this fund going. You are going against the people who matters wishes.
This was a bad situation, but no one involved is a bad person. You want to post with good wishes and hope for future. Go ahead, but as far as campaign is concerned they decided its done.
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If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
[quote="eqzitara"][quote="Volnaiskra"] And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod. [/quote]
Helix didn't know of campaign till I told him. I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me. He had already been working on wrapper and stated he was going to be. I asked him to upload his shots onto 3d visionlive when he said he was happy with his progress. I in part wanted people aware because its not fair for people to throw such excessive amounts of money without knowing. I believe Helix reached same conclusion and decided to release a beta when he saw that people were curious about shots.
People need to stop either pretending they know all the answers. There was not going to be any winner in this situation. There was no good outcome. Helix does nothing, a worse patch comes out that you all pay for and then he releases his? How is that a good outcome[dont bother to answer]? Who would apoligize to the people unhappy with this results and how they spent their money? Helix doesn't deal with money so he sure as hell shouldn't.
Were they upset? Sure, they had the right to be though. They didn't go off the wall so don't need to worry about defending anyone's honor.
They handled it very well imo, they could of probably still made the money needed but they didn't feel it would be right. They couldn't compete with Helix especially since his fix was free and no offense but it seems superior. It was noble for them to give up campaign.
Could this have been handled better on both sides? Sure.
There are no villains in this story. Stop trying to write them in.
Let this topic die. Let's see what happens when things calm down. There are no sides. No one's asking anyone to pick one so don't feel the need. You want to piss off probably the most skilled people who are willing to put insane amounts of time into this type of thing. Go ahead. Enjoy the results...
Otherwise let it go. Don't reply to this. And don't try to keep this fund going. You are going against the people who matters wishes.[/quote]I agree 100% with this. If you read my first post on the subject a couple of pages back, you'll see that I wrote very similar things: There are no villains. The indiegomod people got a bad deal, but it was not Helix's fault. No matter how it played out, someone was going to get hurt. All things considered, it turned out ok, and I don't see the need to chastise anyone.
I wrote all of those things in my first post, and I still agree with them.
If the references to "conspiracies" and "creating villains" in the above two posts are referring to me, then they are way off. Some people seem to misunderstood me, even though I've tried to write very clearly. I've never tried to make anyone out to be a villain. I've merely asked certain people to cool off on villainising the indiegomod people.
When I said that "And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.", I was merely stating the obvious.
The arrival of Helix's mod HAS killed the indiegomod campaign. You know it and I know it. Give it a few weeks, and everyone will know it, even those who are currently still trying to resusitate it. I have enough respect for Helix's intelligence to assume that he also knew what the consequences would be for the indiegomod. And like I said earlier, he might have purposefully chosen this timing to save people like me our money. If so, I'm grateful for his consideration.
Did Helix do something wrong? Of course not. Could he have been a bit more sensitive about his timing? Possibly. But if so then hey, he's allowed to be imperfect, since he is just a man (despite what some people seem to think).
Volnaiskra said: And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.
Helix didn't know of campaign till I told him. I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me. He had already been working on wrapper and stated he was going to be. I asked him to upload his shots onto 3d visionlive when he said he was happy with his progress. I in part wanted people aware because its not fair for people to throw such excessive amounts of money without knowing. I believe Helix reached same conclusion and decided to release a beta when he saw that people were curious about shots.
People need to stop either pretending they know all the answers. There was not going to be any winner in this situation. There was no good outcome. Helix does nothing, a worse patch comes out that you all pay for and then he releases his? How is that a good outcome[dont bother to answer]? Who would apoligize to the people unhappy with this results and how they spent their money? Helix doesn't deal with money so he sure as hell shouldn't.
Were they upset? Sure, they had the right to be though. They didn't go off the wall so don't need to worry about defending anyone's honor.
They handled it very well imo, they could of probably still made the money needed but they didn't feel it would be right. They couldn't compete with Helix especially since his fix was free and no offense but it seems superior. It was noble for them to give up campaign.
Could this have been handled better on both sides? Sure.
There are no villains in this story. Stop trying to write them in.
Let this topic die. Let's see what happens when things calm down. There are no sides. No one's asking anyone to pick one so don't feel the need. You want to piss off probably the most skilled people who are willing to put insane amounts of time into this type of thing. Go ahead. Enjoy the results...
Otherwise let it go. Don't reply to this. And don't try to keep this fund going. You are going against the people who matters wishes.
I agree 100% with this. If you read my first post on the subject a couple of pages back, you'll see that I wrote very similar things: There are no villains. The indiegomod people got a bad deal, but it was not Helix's fault. No matter how it played out, someone was going to get hurt. All things considered, it turned out ok, and I don't see the need to chastise anyone.
I wrote all of those things in my first post, and I still agree with them.
If the references to "conspiracies" and "creating villains" in the above two posts are referring to me, then they are way off. Some people seem to misunderstood me, even though I've tried to write very clearly. I've never tried to make anyone out to be a villain. I've merely asked certain people to cool off on villainising the indiegomod people.
When I said that "And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.", I was merely stating the obvious.
The arrival of Helix's mod HAS killed the indiegomod campaign. You know it and I know it. Give it a few weeks, and everyone will know it, even those who are currently still trying to resusitate it. I have enough respect for Helix's intelligence to assume that he also knew what the consequences would be for the indiegomod. And like I said earlier, he might have purposefully chosen this timing to save people like me our money. If so, I'm grateful for his consideration.
Did Helix do something wrong? Of course not. Could he have been a bit more sensitive about his timing? Possibly. But if so then hey, he's allowed to be imperfect, since he is just a man (despite what some people seem to think).
Well, what everybody seems to forget it that the wrapper and therefore the money was aimed at creating a wrapper that is easier to use and might enable multiple people to fix shaders. This was the request by the community and we obliged.
I really don’t see how killing the wrapper serves the community one bit.
The situation now: Single point of failure, everybody at the mercy of one person.
The potential situation: Potentially dozens of people (assumed that they are able to do it) working on multiple games using the wrapper and the method…
Everybody that wrote that they didn’t want to spend the money once a free solution comes out… that is a very short sighted view and a slap in the face…
And also the whole discussion about “huge amount of money people spent”, we asked for 10$ a person, nothing more. If somebody wants to give more it is entirely their business. The plan was 500 people 10$, and that is very fair. But it turned out that the community is just too small for crowd funding and people had to spend more, that was not the idea but as I said it is nobody else’s business but theirs.
And as for “inferior product”, we might see about that….
Well, what everybody seems to forget it that the wrapper and therefore the money was aimed at creating a wrapper that is easier to use and might enable multiple people to fix shaders. This was the request by the community and we obliged.
I really don’t see how killing the wrapper serves the community one bit.
The situation now: Single point of failure, everybody at the mercy of one person.
The potential situation: Potentially dozens of people (assumed that they are able to do it) working on multiple games using the wrapper and the method…
Everybody that wrote that they didn’t want to spend the money once a free solution comes out… that is a very short sighted view and a slap in the face…
And also the whole discussion about “huge amount of money people spent”, we asked for 10$ a person, nothing more. If somebody wants to give more it is entirely their business. The plan was 500 people 10$, and that is very fair. But it turned out that the community is just too small for crowd funding and people had to spend more, that was not the idea but as I said it is nobody else’s business but theirs.
And as for “inferior product”, we might see about that….
I was only saying that based on the fact you said helix hides the technique of LUA script so I figured you ran into issues. I meant no offense. I look forward to seeing anything you put out, including BI. I am also a donator and stand by it.
I see no purpose to kill wrapper either. I assumed that progress on Bioshock Infinite was finished because it was said "We will not work on it a minute longer." I never stated that you should kill wrapper and only spoke for BI based on what was said about LUA script.
I am personally interested in any progress towards improving 3D compatibility whether as "competition" [I don't see it that way.] I really do wish you best of luck and hope for continuation of project.
I do stand by my “huge amount of money people spent” line. I was one of first people to speak well of campaign remember. Their was too much fear involved with campaign over DX11 and once fear was taken out of the equation. Helix became the villian, thats unfair. You say he is holding you at his "mercy" but what was option? He not do anything? Then the equation changes where he is at your "mercy". If Helix never set the stage, well their would be no donations, nor community at the moment.
Free means nothing to me as far as 3D. It means little too many of us. We buy games because they work well in 3D. We hate games when they aren't. A $60 dollar game is very often a paper weight to me. You give a better product. People will pay, but I refuse to think you are at his mercy. He wants to work for free, as do I. So be it, release your patches and make them better. I will buy it. If work is continued I will pay for whatever it is as long as its quality and even pay my donation amount.
Like I said, there are no sides. I will work with Helix because I dont believe I should personally make money but I do not hold that against you. If you release your wrapper and I'm able to fix games easier. So be it, I will work for free on that wrapper as long as its better and I am able. I do however look forward to seeing anything you have to offer and like I said I will gladly pay for any patch as long as its superior [reasonably priced].
Relatedly, I also agree about people should of stood by there donations. That was a choice, and everyone should of made knowing consequences. It saddens me that anyone expressed such wishes to you. Though I do agree highly with Helix posting his beta at this timing and perhaps pushed him into such direction. Everyone willing already went in and the wealthy/passionate were the ones that were being pressured into putting more in. I really don't like that your okay with that but helix posting his wrapper was *off the table*. You can't take the moral high ground on that. I will refuse to see you in the right. If Helix wanted to end this campaign, he could of came on here and literally said stop donating. He didn't, he just showed his free alternative.
I was only saying that based on the fact you said helix hides the technique of LUA script so I figured you ran into issues. I meant no offense. I look forward to seeing anything you put out, including BI. I am also a donator and stand by it.
I see no purpose to kill wrapper either. I assumed that progress on Bioshock Infinite was finished because it was said "We will not work on it a minute longer." I never stated that you should kill wrapper and only spoke for BI based on what was said about LUA script.
I am personally interested in any progress towards improving 3D compatibility whether as "competition" [I don't see it that way.] I really do wish you best of luck and hope for continuation of project.
I do stand by my “huge amount of money people spent” line. I was one of first people to speak well of campaign remember. Their was too much fear involved with campaign over DX11 and once fear was taken out of the equation. Helix became the villian, thats unfair. You say he is holding you at his "mercy" but what was option? He not do anything? Then the equation changes where he is at your "mercy". If Helix never set the stage, well their would be no donations, nor community at the moment.
Free means nothing to me as far as 3D. It means little too many of us. We buy games because they work well in 3D. We hate games when they aren't. A $60 dollar game is very often a paper weight to me. You give a better product. People will pay, but I refuse to think you are at his mercy. He wants to work for free, as do I. So be it, release your patches and make them better. I will buy it. If work is continued I will pay for whatever it is as long as its quality and even pay my donation amount.
Like I said, there are no sides. I will work with Helix because I dont believe I should personally make money but I do not hold that against you. If you release your wrapper and I'm able to fix games easier. So be it, I will work for free on that wrapper as long as its better and I am able. I do however look forward to seeing anything you have to offer and like I said I will gladly pay for any patch as long as its superior [reasonably priced].
Relatedly, I also agree about people should of stood by there donations. That was a choice, and everyone should of made knowing consequences. It saddens me that anyone expressed such wishes to you. Though I do agree highly with Helix posting his beta at this timing and perhaps pushed him into such direction. Everyone willing already went in and the wealthy/passionate were the ones that were being pressured into putting more in. I really don't like that your okay with that but helix posting his wrapper was *off the table*. You can't take the moral high ground on that. I will refuse to see you in the right. If Helix wanted to end this campaign, he could of came on here and literally said stop donating. He didn't, he just showed his free alternative.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
About the wrapper: It's perfectly playable for me. The lighting issue seen in the 3dsolutiongaming video origins from a different resolution they use (I tested with 1080p), but I stopped fine tuning parameters now because it's no longer a project and my engagement into this is limited now to my free time, which is basically zero.
[quote="eqzitara"]I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me.[/quote]
I never received any answer from a PM to Helix. Had I know there is a chance Helix is doing well with his wrapper, I would never have started this project.
[quote="-=HeliX=-"]But this is a bit oftop already and I'll better to stop it :) [/quote]
There's no misunderstanding possible about his intentions. But I'm very happy Helix is back and I'm also grateful for all the great work and patches he's doing. Thats a huge amount of time he's spending for all of us and I have no idea how he's capable of managing that.
About the wrapper: It's perfectly playable for me. The lighting issue seen in the 3dsolutiongaming video origins from a different resolution they use (I tested with 1080p), but I stopped fine tuning parameters now because it's no longer a project and my engagement into this is limited now to my free time, which is basically zero.
eqzitara said:I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me.
I never received any answer from a PM to Helix. Had I know there is a chance Helix is doing well with his wrapper, I would never have started this project.
-=HeliX=- said:But this is a bit oftop already and I'll better to stop it :)
There's no misunderstanding possible about his intentions. But I'm very happy Helix is back and I'm also grateful for all the great work and patches he's doing. Thats a huge amount of time he's spending for all of us and I have no idea how he's capable of managing that.
[quote="Chiri"]
[quote="-=HeliX=-"]But this is a bit oftop already and I'll better to stop it :) [/quote]
There's no misunderstanding possible about his intentions. But I'm very happy Helix is back and I'm also grateful for all the great work and patches he's doing. Thats a huge amount of time he's spending for all of us and I have no idea how he's capable of managing that.[/quote]
Chiri, he was merely stating that he was off topic and had better stop rambling on about off topic things. He was being friendly. I think you guys have totally mis-understood Helix's intentions. I think we need a big table and more conversation! Your work doesn't have to be for nothing, open a donation page after cancelling your fundraiser. If you really are concerned about their being 'one point of failure' then throwing away your work is clearly not the answer, mo matter how you feel.
-=HeliX=- said:But this is a bit oftop already and I'll better to stop it :)
There's no misunderstanding possible about his intentions. But I'm very happy Helix is back and I'm also grateful for all the great work and patches he's doing. Thats a huge amount of time he's spending for all of us and I have no idea how he's capable of managing that.
Chiri, he was merely stating that he was off topic and had better stop rambling on about off topic things. He was being friendly. I think you guys have totally mis-understood Helix's intentions. I think we need a big table and more conversation! Your work doesn't have to be for nothing, open a donation page after cancelling your fundraiser. If you really are concerned about their being 'one point of failure' then throwing away your work is clearly not the answer, mo matter how you feel.
now even if they do not finish their project I would like to know who would still be in to push the campaign to reach its 5k objective...that way they may feel better about taking their hard earned money given people are still contributing knowing all the facts and they may decide to go on and finish it after all.
let's start a simple list stating that if we reach 10 persons (ie less than 100 per person needed), we divide the gap by the number of persons on last campaign day so each one contribute this amount and the goal is reached...then it's up to these guys to decide....
who's in?
DX58SO2 Intel Board | i7-970 | SLI 2x Gigabyte GTX 970 4GB stock OC @ 1033/1111 Mhz | 12GB Mem | Windows 10 64bit driver 368.22 | 3D Vision | PJ6221 Viewsonic Projector
crap, I really want to stay out of this discussion.
If we do so, we also decide what will happen with the money of other donaters who might think differently.
I am one of those donors, and I am not "very eager" for my money to go towards a fix that is redundant. I've been looking at you guys pledging to keep donating until 5k is met with slight incredulity, watching as you intend to throw away my money.
If the 5K is met, and my money is taken, I will be annoyed. Not at Helix. Not at Chiri. At you, and everyone else who kept pumping money into the indiegogo campaign after Chiri explicitly asked them not to. I'll only be slightly annoyed, because I only gave 70 bucks. If I had given several hundred (as I was planning to in the last days), I would have been very annoyed.
Yes, as I have demonstrated, I have a lot of sympathy for Chiri and the other guys for how this has turned out for them. But that doesn't mean that I want to continue to throw my money into something that is no longer necessary.
If Chiri and co. had taken my money and run, despite their solution now being redundant, I also would have been annoyed. It would have been unethical of them to do so, in my opinion (and probably some other donors' too)
So the "Win Win" you described above is not a win win at all. It does little of benefit to Helix, but screws over the indiemod guys, and puts the donors' money at risk.
The timing of Helix's announcement was unfortunate. I don't know if it was spiteful or just clumsy, or if he simply had no other choice, but it definitely wasn't ideal.
Having said that, I agree with you that the onus was on the indiegomod people to have communicated better with Helix (though from what I gather he doesn't make communicating with him easy, as he seems to be pretty private). Like you said, they were the newcomers, so they needed to scout the terrain properly. As we all know, their whole campaign was a bit slapdash at the start. They obviously didn't plan things incredibly well.
I don't think their slightly poor planning is a reason to attack them now, however. Give them a break - they are the only losers in this situation. Helix wins, because his fix works and everyone loves him. The community wins, because we all get a fix for free.
The only losers in this situation are Chiri and co, because they put in long hours into something, and now have nothing to show for it. We are the winners in this outcome, so us chastising them at this points just seems to be unnecessarily adding insult to injury.
That is the first that you have said you did not want that campaign to go ahead, and that is the first time I have read anyone on these forums saying they did not want their original donation to go ahead. What I stated was that all I had read was that donators that had spoken were 100% for continuing the campaign. That is now not that case, but what I said before was still a fact. Open up a donation page, and most of those donors have expressed they are still willing to donate. Win win. Do tell how that isn't the case?
As for giving them a break, they posted a snarky message on their forum aimed at the community despite having so much support here. They attacked Helix and condescended him and his actions, and made a clear message that Helix and we should all feel guilty for accepting free work, and that we should have paid them instead. Within those attacks was also an attack on the community as a whole for not stoking up more more for their cause... and that no wonder Nvidia gave up (despite their shaky original mission statement, and asking for 5k on something that they could not even guarantee would be released in full working order)... that is 2x what I make in a month. Yeah teaching salary sucks.
I'm sorry that you think such behaviour is acceptable. I personally do not.
OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti
He is clearly not motivated by money. Donations would not provide a significant income stream and might be a big hassle when it comes to taxes.
He is clearly self-motivated with the biggest obstacle being lack of time. He mentioned during spring that dx11 would not be possible until summer. Obviously many people hoped he would make a dx11 wrapper but he was smart enough not to commit.
The reason he delivers is because his own motivation. I can see no reason for him to spend that amount of time on Bioshock Infinite unless he want to play it himself.
Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?
donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com
Whether or not me or anyone else stated that we don't want our money wasted on a redundant and possibly inferior product should not matter. It should be common sense. You may not have grasped this, but others did:
If you and a few others want to keep giving money to a dying horse, that's your business. But you have no right to drag everyone else's money into it. If you and other diehards really feel strongly about an alternate solution, then talk Chiri into starting a new campaign for that purpose, so that the rest of us can get our money back.
This strikes me as common sense. PirateGuybrush knew it, and Schmeltzer knew it. The indiegomod guys clearly knew it, which is why they felt compelled to abandon the project immediately and ask people to keep their money. And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.
Everyone is entitled to work in their time on what they want or to ask money for their work which I find it OK.
If someone is deciding to do something and share it free for the community is out of passion of the actual thing.
I thought the wrapper idea was awesome, and I still think they should release it at the end of the campaign. Once they do it everyone will see that their time and work and money was justified....
All this talk about conspiracies and one "killing" the other is bollocks ...This is the NORMAL way of things in a free market environment...so no one should be offended..
I am not taking anyone's side. I am just in the middle seeing the good in both projects.
1x Palit RTX 2080Ti Pro Gaming OC(watercooled and overclocked to hell)
3x 3D Vision Ready Asus VG278HE monitors (5760x1080).
Intel i9 9900K (overclocked to 5.3 and watercooled ofc).
Asus Maximus XI Hero Mobo.
16 GB Team Group T-Force Dark Pro DDR4 @ 3600.
Lots of Disks:
- Raid 0 - 256GB Sandisk Extreme SSD.
- Raid 0 - WD Black - 2TB.
- SanDisk SSD PLUS 480 GB.
- Intel 760p 256GB M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD.
Creative Sound Blaster Z.
Windows 10 x64 Pro.
etc
My website with my fixes and OpenGL to 3D Vision wrapper:
http://3dsurroundgaming.com
(If you like some of the stuff that I've done and want to donate something, you can do it with PayPal at tavyhome@gmail.com)
I really don't want to be involved with this thread, but seriously wtf?
Can everyone butt out and stop trying to fill in the blanks?
Helix didn't know of campaign till I told him. I brought it up and I thought they already spoke to him because that was only logical for me. He had already been working on wrapper and stated he was going to be. I asked him to upload his shots onto 3d visionlive when he said he was happy with his progress. I in part wanted people aware because its not fair for people to throw such excessive amounts of money without knowing. I believe Helix reached same conclusion and decided to release a beta when he saw that people were curious about shots.
People need to stop either pretending they know all the answers. There was not going to be any winner in this situation. There was no good outcome. Helix does nothing, a worse patch comes out that you all pay for and then he releases his? How is that a good outcome[dont bother to answer]? Who would apoligize to the people unhappy with this results and how they spent their money? Helix doesn't deal with money so he sure as hell shouldn't.
Were they upset? Sure, they had the right to be though. They didn't go off the wall so don't need to worry about defending anyone's honor.
They handled it very well imo, they could of probably still made the money needed but they didn't feel it would be right. They couldn't compete with Helix especially since his fix was free and no offense but it seems superior. It was noble for them to give up campaign.
Could this have been handled better on both sides? Sure.
There are no villains in this story. Stop trying to write them in.
Let this topic die. Let's see what happens when things calm down. There are no sides. No one's asking anyone to pick one so don't feel the need. You want to piss off probably the most skilled people who are willing to put insane amounts of time into this type of thing. Go ahead. Enjoy the results...
Otherwise let it go. And don't try to keep this fund going. You are going against the people who matters wishes.
This was a bad situation, but no one involved is a bad person. You want to post with good wishes and hope for future. Go ahead, but as far as campaign is concerned they decided its done.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
I wrote all of those things in my first post, and I still agree with them.
If the references to "conspiracies" and "creating villains" in the above two posts are referring to me, then they are way off. Some people seem to misunderstood me, even though I've tried to write very clearly. I've never tried to make anyone out to be a villain. I've merely asked certain people to cool off on villainising the indiegomod people.
When I said that "And Helix is clearly a smart guy, so I have no doubt that he also knew he was killing the indiegomod by choosing this time to reveal his mod.", I was merely stating the obvious.
The arrival of Helix's mod HAS killed the indiegomod campaign. You know it and I know it. Give it a few weeks, and everyone will know it, even those who are currently still trying to resusitate it. I have enough respect for Helix's intelligence to assume that he also knew what the consequences would be for the indiegomod. And like I said earlier, he might have purposefully chosen this timing to save people like me our money. If so, I'm grateful for his consideration.
Did Helix do something wrong? Of course not. Could he have been a bit more sensitive about his timing? Possibly. But if so then hey, he's allowed to be imperfect, since he is just a man (despite what some people seem to think).
It's over. Let's stop posting here and let things die before someone gets upset.
I really don’t see how killing the wrapper serves the community one bit.
The situation now: Single point of failure, everybody at the mercy of one person.
The potential situation: Potentially dozens of people (assumed that they are able to do it) working on multiple games using the wrapper and the method…
Everybody that wrote that they didn’t want to spend the money once a free solution comes out… that is a very short sighted view and a slap in the face…
And also the whole discussion about “huge amount of money people spent”, we asked for 10$ a person, nothing more. If somebody wants to give more it is entirely their business. The plan was 500 people 10$, and that is very fair. But it turned out that the community is just too small for crowd funding and people had to spend more, that was not the idea but as I said it is nobody else’s business but theirs.
And as for “inferior product”, we might see about that….
I see no purpose to kill wrapper either. I assumed that progress on Bioshock Infinite was finished because it was said "We will not work on it a minute longer." I never stated that you should kill wrapper and only spoke for BI based on what was said about LUA script.
I am personally interested in any progress towards improving 3D compatibility whether as "competition" [I don't see it that way.] I really do wish you best of luck and hope for continuation of project.
I do stand by my “huge amount of money people spent” line. I was one of first people to speak well of campaign remember. Their was too much fear involved with campaign over DX11 and once fear was taken out of the equation. Helix became the villian, thats unfair. You say he is holding you at his "mercy" but what was option? He not do anything? Then the equation changes where he is at your "mercy". If Helix never set the stage, well their would be no donations, nor community at the moment.
Free means nothing to me as far as 3D. It means little too many of us. We buy games because they work well in 3D. We hate games when they aren't. A $60 dollar game is very often a paper weight to me. You give a better product. People will pay, but I refuse to think you are at his mercy. He wants to work for free, as do I. So be it, release your patches and make them better. I will buy it. If work is continued I will pay for whatever it is as long as its quality and even pay my donation amount.
Like I said, there are no sides. I will work with Helix because I dont believe I should personally make money but I do not hold that against you. If you release your wrapper and I'm able to fix games easier. So be it, I will work for free on that wrapper as long as its better and I am able. I do however look forward to seeing anything you have to offer and like I said I will gladly pay for any patch as long as its superior [reasonably priced].
Relatedly, I also agree about people should of stood by there donations. That was a choice, and everyone should of made knowing consequences. It saddens me that anyone expressed such wishes to you. Though I do agree highly with Helix posting his beta at this timing and perhaps pushed him into such direction. Everyone willing already went in and the wealthy/passionate were the ones that were being pressured into putting more in. I really don't like that your okay with that but helix posting his wrapper was *off the table*. You can't take the moral high ground on that. I will refuse to see you in the right. If Helix wanted to end this campaign, he could of came on here and literally said stop donating. He didn't, he just showed his free alternative.
Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com
If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com
I never received any answer from a PM to Helix. Had I know there is a chance Helix is doing well with his wrapper, I would never have started this project.
There's no misunderstanding possible about his intentions. But I'm very happy Helix is back and I'm also grateful for all the great work and patches he's doing. Thats a huge amount of time he's spending for all of us and I have no idea how he's capable of managing that.
Chiri, he was merely stating that he was off topic and had better stop rambling on about off topic things. He was being friendly. I think you guys have totally mis-understood Helix's intentions. I think we need a big table and more conversation! Your work doesn't have to be for nothing, open a donation page after cancelling your fundraiser. If you really are concerned about their being 'one point of failure' then throwing away your work is clearly not the answer, mo matter how you feel.
OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti