Why prevent us from using the monitor of our choice?
  6 / 8    
[quote="quadrophoeniX"][quote="chiz1"] Yes [/quote] So you do have this monitor, fine. Then please download [url=http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9560/sterotest.jpg]this[/url] remane to .jps and test for yourself. After tweaking your monitor to acceptable results please share the settings you think apropriate. [/quote] But if you can admit you were badly mistaken about these panels not outputting 120Hz 1080p in 2D and outputting 3D in only CB, maybe I can provide a picture of my panels showing ugly skinny pixels on both the AW2310 and VG278H that look very similar to the ones linked earlier. ;) Please stop resorting to out-of-context quotes and either respond or go away, thanks.
quadrophoeniX said:
chiz1 said:
Yes

So you do have this monitor, fine.

Then please download this remane to .jps and test for yourself. After tweaking your monitor to acceptable results please share the settings you think apropriate.

But if you can admit you were badly mistaken about these panels not outputting 120Hz 1080p in 2D and outputting 3D in only CB, maybe I can provide a picture of my panels showing ugly skinny pixels on both the AW2310 and VG278H that look very similar to the ones linked earlier. ;)

Please stop resorting to out-of-context quotes and either respond or go away, thanks.

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings

Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W

#76
Posted 12/08/2012 12:51 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]My monitor is running default except a recommended reduction of stock contrast from 80 to 56. I have taken a few photographs with my Nikon. http://sdrv.ms/QIau4v All 3D shots use the black/white jps above. The first one taken with 1/60 and showing the emitter looks quite weird. The second being 2D is taken with 1/125 and appears pretty much as you expect. In the last 3D shot with 1/60 looks like expected. I did take a few 3D shots with 1/125 by mistake and while I didn't keep them I managed to capture black on the top of the image and white at the bottom while still photographing a small part of the whole panel.[/quote] Yeah I can't see anything wrong with those pictures, it looks like some people have discovered the latticing effect from off-angle viewing that is inherent with TN panel technology but somehow mistaken it for checkerboard output. The 3rd pic you link looks as expected but I guess some would mistake it for checkerboard output, even though it's just the inability to fully block or transition from the black frame fast enough.
Flugan said:My monitor is running default except a recommended reduction of stock contrast from 80 to 56.

I have taken a few photographs with my Nikon.


http://sdrv.ms/QIau4v


All 3D shots use the black/white jps above.
The first one taken with 1/60 and showing the emitter looks quite weird.

The second being 2D is taken with 1/125 and appears pretty much as you expect.

In the last 3D shot with 1/60 looks like expected.

I did take a few 3D shots with 1/125 by mistake and while I didn't keep them I managed
to capture black on the top of the image and white at the bottom while still photographing a small
part of the whole panel.

Yeah I can't see anything wrong with those pictures, it looks like some people have discovered the latticing effect from off-angle viewing that is inherent with TN panel technology but somehow mistaken it for checkerboard output. The 3rd pic you link looks as expected but I guess some would mistake it for checkerboard output, even though it's just the inability to fully block or transition from the black frame fast enough.

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings

Intel Core i7 5930K @4.5GHz | Gigabyte X99 Gaming 5 | Win10 x64 Pro | Corsair H105
Nvidia GeForce Titan X SLI Hybrid | ROG Swift PG278Q 144Hz + 3D Vision/G-Sync | 32GB Adata DDR4 2666
Intel Samsung 950Pro SSD | Samsung EVO 4x1 RAID 0 |
Yamaha VX-677 A/V Receiver | Polk Audio RM6880 7.1 | LG Blu-Ray
Auzen X-Fi HT HD | Logitech G710/G502/G27 | Corsair Air 540 | EVGA P2-1200W

#77
Posted 12/08/2012 01:00 AM   
This is why I considered my first picture weird. [img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2790/dsc0546zoom.jpg[/img] At first glance some pixels looked like they were not on the pixel grid. At the end of the day some of the pixels were brighter than others.
This is why I considered my first picture weird.
Image
At first glance some pixels looked like they were not on the pixel grid.

At the end of the day some of the pixels were brighter than others.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#78
Posted 12/08/2012 01:05 PM   
It's not the fact they are not on the grid that's the problem. It's the fact the subpixels are clumped in groups of two => meaning resolution has been halved. That's precisely the same issue i've posted the photos of in the other thread. I don't care what it is, but Full HD @ 120 Hz it ain't. If i wanted half the resolution, i would've bought a passive IPS. [b]Edit:[/b] LMAO @ chiz1 and "latticing effect". You sir made my day. Hilarious blindsight.
It's not the fact they are not on the grid that's the problem. It's the fact the subpixels are clumped in groups of two => meaning resolution has been halved. That's precisely the same issue i've posted the photos of in the other thread.

I don't care what it is, but Full HD @ 120 Hz it ain't.

If i wanted half the resolution, i would've bought a passive IPS.


Edit: LMAO @ chiz1 and "latticing effect". You sir made my day. Hilarious blindsight.

#79
Posted 12/08/2012 06:34 PM   
Each pixel has three subpixels. You suggesting them being grouped into two by two makes no sense at all. Any artifact I captured is probably timing based and would not simultanously show on the rest of the panel. I basically believe that the pixels were transitioning during the start of the exposure which result in one complete transition and two partial transitions. None of this is any proof of there being half-res. My monitor is running 120hz all the time at windows desktop and don't tell me it is only displaying half-res. Don't try to impose your own problem on anyone else.
Each pixel has three subpixels.

You suggesting them being grouped into two by two makes no sense at all.

Any artifact I captured is probably timing based and would not simultanously show on the rest of the panel. I basically believe that the pixels were transitioning during the start of the exposure which result in one complete transition and two partial transitions. None of this is any proof of there being half-res.

My monitor is running 120hz all the time at windows desktop and don't tell me it is only displaying half-res. Don't try to impose your own problem on anyone else.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#80
Posted 12/08/2012 06:49 PM   
So, I just couldn't let go on the situation as having stirred so much confusion. Despite of what some may think of me I have no resentiments at all against nvidia and am a dedicated advocate of S3D since day one - I DO want S3D, regardless I want GOOD S3D. And after all nvidia cannot be blamed for these issues but only the monitor manufacturers. Also I stress that I do not post the results of my researches for those that won't believe me anyway but just those interested. So if you don't you may as well skip this post. Anyway, as I had purchased (and returned) the Asus through the wholesale supplier of the company I work for I decided to contact them and got a contact at Asus direct. I explained the case and they suggested to provide mewith another unit for verifying the prob with no obligation to keep it. The monitor arrived from Asus had a new serial number and the clear Asus printed warranty seal on the cardbox was opened bearing a "QC passed" sticker instead. To my believe this imposes Asus seems to be aware of the problem as they immediately released a replacement but decided to test it beforehand. This also could mean it's a firmware issue and they checked latest firmware before sending it out. Anyway, Good news, not so good news, Good news first: The checkerboard issue is NOT present on this unit, madly fiddlying around with the extremes in brightnes, contrast and timing for most part of the weekend I was not able to recreate the effect experienced on the original device. In the end of the day we can constitute that this issue is fortunately limited to certain production runs, it might be a hardware isseue, might be a firmware issue. As I have no idea about how to read either ot of the monitor this will stay unknown. So it should be stressed that anybody with this monitor should check with the jps above for S3D picture consistency and in case have their monitors replaced. Not so good news: I still can confirm the effect orcinus has documented in 3D mode and a fizziness/reduction of resolution is present at all refresh rates in desktop mode. This is not related to exposure of cameras as you can see it with bare eyes. Dark desktop background, Aero theme watch the thin white line on top edge of the window. Drag it around, let it sit still and quicly move your sight horizontally across the screen, focus crosseyed behind the screen pkane and then let go - in everycase you clearly notice the fizziness which is not present on any other monitor I tested regardsless of refresh rate or panel technology. Now Orcinus has it on his Benq and I have seen it on the Acer and the Asus VG278HE. As my HannsG and Sammy RZ2233 do not show this effect I tend to believe that this is a tradeoff that has to be made if you want Lightboost. Now the question remaining is: Is it worth it? I think everybody should decide on his own. Peronally I am [i]probably[/i] going to keep the HE now, but not as my only monitor.
So, I just couldn't let go on the situation as having stirred so much confusion.

Despite of what some may think of me I have no resentiments at all against nvidia and am a dedicated advocate of S3D since day one - I DO want S3D, regardless I want GOOD S3D. And after all nvidia cannot be blamed for these issues but only the monitor manufacturers. Also I stress that I do not post the results of my researches for those that won't believe me anyway but just those interested. So if you don't you may as well skip this post.

Anyway, as I had purchased (and returned) the Asus through the wholesale supplier of the company I work for I decided to contact them and got a contact at Asus direct. I explained the case and they suggested to provide mewith another unit for verifying the prob with no obligation to keep it.

The monitor arrived from Asus had a new serial number and the clear Asus printed warranty seal on the cardbox was opened bearing a "QC passed" sticker instead. To my believe this imposes Asus seems to be aware of the problem as they immediately released a replacement but decided to test it beforehand. This also could mean it's a firmware issue and they checked latest firmware before sending it out.


Anyway, Good news, not so good news, Good news first:

The checkerboard issue is NOT present on this unit, madly fiddlying around with the extremes in brightnes, contrast and timing for most part of the weekend I was not able to recreate the effect experienced on the original device.

In the end of the day we can constitute that this issue is fortunately limited to certain production runs, it might be a hardware isseue, might be a firmware issue. As I have no idea about how to read either ot of the monitor this will stay unknown.

So it should be stressed that anybody with this monitor should check with the jps above for S3D picture consistency and in case have their monitors replaced.

Not so good news: I still can confirm the effect orcinus has documented in 3D mode and a fizziness/reduction of resolution is present at all refresh rates in desktop mode.

This is not related to exposure of cameras as you can see it with bare eyes. Dark desktop background, Aero theme watch the thin white line on top edge of the window. Drag it around, let it sit still and quicly move your sight horizontally across the screen, focus crosseyed behind the screen pkane and then let go - in everycase you clearly notice the fizziness which is not present on any other monitor I tested regardsless of refresh rate or panel technology.

Now Orcinus has it on his Benq and I have seen it on the Acer and the Asus VG278HE. As my HannsG and Sammy RZ2233 do not show this effect I tend to believe that this is a tradeoff that has to be made if you want Lightboost.

Now the question remaining is: Is it worth it? I think everybody should decide on his own. Peronally I am probably going to keep the HE now, but not as my only monitor.

#81
Posted 12/10/2012 12:53 AM   
So it looks like the BenQ is the best 3D Vision monitor... Oh how I long for a 120hz-input 3D LED/LCD TV...
So it looks like the BenQ is the best 3D Vision monitor...

Oh how I long for a 120hz-input 3D LED/LCD TV...

#82
Posted 02/02/2013 03:34 PM   
The Asus VG278H (not E) is said not to have this issue, But I wouldn't bet on it without having tested myself... BTW I got rid of my HE... just couldn't stand it. Horus, did you get any further in regard to our PM conversation? I need a 27" 120Hz screen badly ;)
The Asus VG278H (not E) is said not to have this issue, But I wouldn't bet on it without having tested myself...
BTW I got rid of my HE... just couldn't stand it. Horus, did you get any further in regard to our PM conversation? I need a 27" 120Hz screen badly ;)

#83
Posted 02/12/2013 04:16 PM   
Can anyone update me on what the problem with VG278H? I did enough testing to convince myself that what my monitor worked like expected. Most of that testing was done in between my first strange image and my later update on the topic. I must admit that latest post was a bit selfish as I was satisfied enough having convinced the only one who matters (myself) and doing a thourough explanation just to convince others seemed like a waste of time. If you have any reasonable questions feel free to ask. Be aware that I can't quickly reproduce a series of tests I did months ago and which offer no additional value to me.
Can anyone update me on what the problem with VG278H?

I did enough testing to convince myself that what my monitor worked like expected.

Most of that testing was done in between my first strange image and my later update on the topic.

I must admit that latest post was a bit selfish as I was satisfied enough having convinced the only one who matters (myself) and doing a thourough explanation just to convince others seemed like a waste of time.

If you have any reasonable questions feel free to ask. Be aware that I can't quickly reproduce a series of tests I did months ago and which offer no additional value to me.

Thanks to everybody using my assembler it warms my heart.
To have a critical piece of code that everyone can enjoy!
What more can you ask for?

donations: ulfjalmbrant@hotmail.com

#84
Posted 02/13/2013 12:20 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]Can anyone update me on what the problem with VG278H? [/quote] The problem is [url=http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4810/120hztests.jpg]this[/url]:[img]http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/4810/120hztests.jpg[/img] This can easily be reproduced on affected monitors using the .jps as per above. On good 120Hz monitors (as on any 2D monitors when tricked into generic CRT mode) it will result in a homogenous grey such as [url=http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2600/120fpsfilmsamsungs.jpg]on my RZ2233[/url][img]http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2600/120fpsfilmsamsungs.jpg[/img] Disregarding the Moiree pattern you can still clearly see the difference in the subpixel pattern . However, please note, this was experienced on a "HE" not "H"....
Flugan said:Can anyone update me on what the problem with VG278H?


The problem is this:Image
This can easily be reproduced on affected monitors using the .jps as per above. On good 120Hz monitors (as on any 2D monitors when tricked into generic CRT mode) it will result in a homogenous grey such as on my RZ2233Image
Disregarding the Moiree pattern you can still clearly see the difference in the subpixel pattern . However, please note, this was experienced on a "HE" not "H"....

#85
Posted 02/13/2013 05:22 PM   
on similar note I've bought 3dvision ready display BenQ XL2420T and can't use it with tridef Official tridef support reply: However, with recent 3D Vision licensed hardware, we have found out that not even side by side mode is supported anymore when using TriDef. This is due to the fact that Nvidia owns the proprietary rights to their 3D implementation. Therefore, your future setup might work with their 3D Vision solution but will not with TriDef unless Nvidia opens up their API's to third parties.
on similar note I've bought 3dvision ready display BenQ XL2420T and can't use it with tridef

Official tridef support reply:

However, with recent 3D Vision licensed hardware, we have found out that not even side by side mode is supported anymore when using TriDef.
This is due to the fact that Nvidia owns the proprietary rights to their 3D implementation. Therefore, your future setup might work with their 3D Vision solution but will not with TriDef unless Nvidia opens up their API's to third parties.

Acer H5360 / BenQ XL2420T + 3D Vision 2 Kit - EVGA GTX 980TI 6GB - i7-3930K@4.0GHz - DX79SI- 16GB RAM@2133 - Win10x64 Home - HTC VIVE

#86
Posted 02/19/2013 10:27 PM   
Time for an jailbreak ? :D
Time for an jailbreak ? :D

HW:
i7 3770K @ 4.6Hz on ASUS MAXIMUS V FORMULA together with G.Skill F3-2400C10D-8GTX
ASUS GTX 980ti DirectCU III in SLI paired with ASUS ROG Swift on DP 1.2
Rig is powered by Corsair AX850W
OS: Win8.1 Pro 64bit
Always on latest Gforce Drivers :)

#87
Posted 02/20/2013 11:43 AM   
[quote="tehace"] This is due to the fact that Nvidia owns the proprietary rights to their 3D implementation. [/quote] Although the thread's title refers to using [i]any[/i] 120Hz capable display with 3Dvision and not to 3Dvision monitors supporting [i]any other[/i] 3D format out there and thus this strays a little OT I would like to comment on that... To [i]their[/i] implementation, that's right, but that is as far as it gets. In other words it means that they select which 120Hz display are available as "3D vision ready" in the control panel (e.g. not the Iiyama 120Hz screen, not the 750/950 Sammys etc) and this actually is the debate on the topic. Still, independently from being 3D-vision ready, any given display can additionally support various other 3D modes: 120Hz through DVI or DP, framepackaged over HDMI1.4a, SBS, over under, chekerboard if only the display manufacturer considered it worthwile implementing. And that's the point: It's a sole choice of the monitor manufacturer to support various 3D modes (amongst nvidias format) or not and it was unjustified to pass the blame to nvidia here. In the case of tridef they should better consider to support the most common 3D formats available on 3D monitors, beamers and TVs which are framesequential and framepackaging through DVI, DP and HDMI rather than expect everybody else to (re)implement SBS... Still then, you shouldn't expect a 3Dvision emitter neccessarily to kick in on 3D formats unsupported by nvidias solution - regardless if a separate USB pyramidoid or a built-in solution, as it in fact [i]is[/i] just a nvidia solution. That is, unless the monitor manufacturer clearly states support for these formats. For instance, the 3D vision certified Acer 274HBmiiid and Asus VG278H will support 3D through HDMI 1.4a from another source than a nvidia GFX card just fine - even through the built in nvidia solution.
tehace said:
This is due to the fact that Nvidia owns the proprietary rights to their 3D implementation.


Although the thread's title refers to using any 120Hz capable display with 3Dvision and not to 3Dvision monitors supporting any other 3D format out there and thus this strays a little OT I would like to comment on that...

To their implementation, that's right, but that is as far as it gets. In other words it means that they select which 120Hz display are available as "3D vision ready" in the control panel (e.g. not the Iiyama 120Hz screen, not the 750/950 Sammys etc) and this actually is the debate on the topic.

Still, independently from being 3D-vision ready, any given display can additionally support various other 3D modes: 120Hz through DVI or DP, framepackaged over HDMI1.4a, SBS, over under, chekerboard if only the display manufacturer considered it worthwile implementing. And that's the point: It's a sole choice of the monitor manufacturer to support various 3D modes (amongst nvidias format) or not and it was unjustified to pass the blame to nvidia here.


In the case of tridef they should better consider to support the most common 3D formats available on 3D monitors, beamers and TVs which are framesequential and framepackaging through DVI, DP and HDMI rather than expect everybody else to (re)implement SBS...

Still then, you shouldn't expect a 3Dvision emitter neccessarily to kick in on 3D formats unsupported by nvidias solution - regardless if a separate USB pyramidoid or a built-in solution, as it in fact is just a nvidia solution. That is, unless the monitor manufacturer clearly states support for these formats. For instance, the 3D vision certified Acer 274HBmiiid and Asus VG278H will support 3D through HDMI 1.4a from another source than a nvidia GFX card just fine - even through the built in nvidia solution.

#88
Posted 02/20/2013 03:00 PM   
[quote="quadrophoeniX"] And that's the point: It's a sole choice of the monitor manufacturer to support various 3D modes (amongst nvidias format) or not and it was unjustified to pass the blame to nvidia here. In the case of tridef they should better consider to support the most common 3D formats available on 3D monitors, beamers and TVs which are framesequential and framepackaging through DVI, DP and HDMI rather than expect everybody else to (re)implement SBS... [/quote] Manufacturers and software developers aren't as independent as you seem to believe. Nvidia 3D vision isn't an open format everyone can use like Hdmi or DisplayPort. It's a closed and proprietary format, which means that in order to use it, display manufacturers have to make a deal with Nvidia. The terms of these contracts are not publicly known but from what I read throughout the internet, there are technical requirements and money involved. You can bet that Nvidia puts pressure on manufacturer to only support their solution and nothing else by adjusting the price of the licence depending on how cooperative the manufacturer is. Samsung didn't renew their agreement with Nvidia, and... well you all know what happened to their current line up of monitors. Nvidia has an interest in locking you up with exclusive features in order to force you to buy Nvidia graphics cards. Regarding Tridef, PC programs cannot just talk directly to displays, they never ever ever output DVI or Hdmi signals directly. There is always an intermediary layer between them and displays. In our case it's the Nvidia driver. If Nvidia decides to not grant access to Frame packing or to a precisely controlled frame sequential mode, the application won't be able to output it, and there is nothing Tridef can do about it. As a reminder iZ3D tried for years to emulate a software frame sequential output, they failed : the picture would constantly fall out of sync, until AMD released their HD3D driver and all of a sudden their driver magically was able to output synchronized frame sequential and got hdmi frame packing support on AMD cards. Tridef needs Nvidia's cooperation in order to access frame sequential and frame packing outputs on Nvidia cards.
quadrophoeniX said:
And that's the point: It's a sole choice of the monitor manufacturer to support various 3D modes (amongst nvidias format) or not and it was unjustified to pass the blame to nvidia here.


In the case of tridef they should better consider to support the most common 3D formats available on 3D monitors, beamers and TVs which are framesequential and framepackaging through DVI, DP and HDMI rather than expect everybody else to (re)implement SBS...

Manufacturers and software developers aren't as independent as you seem to believe.

Nvidia 3D vision isn't an open format everyone can use like Hdmi or DisplayPort. It's a closed and proprietary format, which means that in order to use it, display manufacturers have to make a deal with Nvidia. The terms of these contracts are not publicly known but from what I read throughout the internet, there are technical requirements and money involved.
You can bet that Nvidia puts pressure on manufacturer to only support their solution and nothing else by adjusting the price of the licence depending on how cooperative the manufacturer is.
Samsung didn't renew their agreement with Nvidia, and... well you all know what happened to their current line up of monitors.

Nvidia has an interest in locking you up with exclusive features in order to force you to buy Nvidia graphics cards.

Regarding Tridef, PC programs cannot just talk directly to displays, they never ever ever output DVI or Hdmi signals directly. There is always an intermediary layer between them and displays. In our case it's the Nvidia driver. If Nvidia decides to not grant access to Frame packing or to a precisely controlled frame sequential mode, the application won't be able to output it, and there is nothing Tridef can do about it.
As a reminder iZ3D tried for years to emulate a software frame sequential output, they failed : the picture would constantly fall out of sync, until AMD released their HD3D driver and all of a sudden their driver magically was able to output synchronized frame sequential and got hdmi frame packing support on AMD cards.

Tridef needs Nvidia's cooperation in order to access frame sequential and frame packing outputs on Nvidia cards.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#89
Posted 02/23/2013 02:21 PM   
The short fact is... if a display has worked with any Nvidia driver, then it should *always* work. There should Never be an issue of Nvidia needing to certify them. That's the point of standards. The trick with 'breaking' some displays in the 3xx releases, and making some chargeable via 3d TV Play, is disgraceful profiteering.
The short fact is... if a display has worked with any Nvidia driver, then it should *always* work. There should Never be an issue of Nvidia needing to certify them. That's the point of standards. The trick with 'breaking' some displays in the 3xx releases, and making some chargeable via 3d TV Play, is disgraceful profiteering.

#90
Posted 02/23/2013 05:50 PM   
  6 / 8    
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