mantle, the 3d vision killer?
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AMD just announced a new API similar to Directx , and for example all DICE games will use it on AMD: http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/09/26/carmack-microsoft-and-sony-could-be-hostile-to-mantle It's too early to tell, but if it was massively used, supposedly 3d vision wouldn't work with it just like it doesn't work with opengl.
AMD just announced a new API similar to Directx , and for example all DICE games will use it on AMD: http://www.worldsfactory.net/2013/09/26/carmack-microsoft-and-sony-could-be-hostile-to-mantle


It's too early to tell, but if it was massively used, supposedly 3d vision wouldn't work with it just like it doesn't work with opengl.

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#1
Posted 09/26/2013 01:46 PM   
I think the bigger killer is going to be Steambox. Simply because Gabe Newell is right during his recent Linux speech. He talks about how Valve is planning everything around the rapid advances in the price/performance increases that have been happening of late. He states: people tend to "overestimate the effects of these things in the short run, and underestimate them in the long run." If you get developers (who have every incentive for an open system to become market leader) to support OpenGl, it's entirely possible that in 2 - 3 years, a very small box, using very little power, will have PS4 type performance. And you could sell it for 199.99 or even less. If that day happens, and it's coming, consoles have no usefullness anymore. They came into being because tech was expensive. And if you had large companies willing to subsidize those costs, you could put market leading power into a device that was still cheap enough to build large consumer bases (which is what games need). But with tech reaching a commidized state, the whole premise is moot. You won't need that subsidization to build large consumer bases. And that's when the open platform will take over. It's brilliant foresight by Valve and people are going to look back and say how obvious it all was. Now, I fully expect Oculus Rift to have Steam OS built into it's headsets in a couple years. So that's why I'm not too down about 3D's future. I think it'll have one.
I think the bigger killer is going to be Steambox. Simply because Gabe Newell is right during his recent Linux speech. He talks about how Valve is planning everything around the rapid advances in the price/performance increases that have been happening of late. He states: people tend to "overestimate the effects of these things in the short run, and underestimate them in the long run."

If you get developers (who have every incentive for an open system to become market leader) to support OpenGl, it's entirely possible that in 2 - 3 years, a very small box, using very little power, will have PS4 type performance. And you could sell it for 199.99 or even less.

If that day happens, and it's coming, consoles have no usefullness anymore. They came into being because tech was expensive. And if you had large companies willing to subsidize those costs, you could put market leading power into a device that was still cheap enough to build large consumer bases (which is what games need).

But with tech reaching a commidized state, the whole premise is moot. You won't need that subsidization to build large consumer bases. And that's when the open platform will take over. It's brilliant foresight by Valve and people are going to look back and say how obvious it all was.

Now, I fully expect Oculus Rift to have Steam OS built into it's headsets in a couple years. So that's why I'm not too down about 3D's future. I think it'll have one.

#2
Posted 09/26/2013 01:56 PM   
Just what PCs need, more fragmentation of the market console style. *edit* Or maybe it will end up like the performance of their cards. Good in theory, lacking in implementation.
Just what PCs need, more fragmentation of the market console style.

*edit* Or maybe it will end up like the performance of their cards. Good in theory, lacking in implementation.

#3
Posted 09/26/2013 02:09 PM   
I second Kolreth's emotion. All those who have been accusing Nvidia of releasing proprietary technologies which are "bad for business" should definitely reconsider their harsh words, as this new API comes with the specific purpose of putting their rival out of competition. As for the impact of the thingie, guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm especially curious about Microsoft's reaction, as AMD has accused them of implementing a "sluggish" API which doesn't allow AMD's cards to run to their full potential.
I second Kolreth's emotion. All those who have been accusing Nvidia of releasing proprietary technologies which are "bad for business" should definitely reconsider their harsh words, as this new API comes with the specific purpose of putting their rival out of competition.
As for the impact of the thingie, guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm especially curious about Microsoft's reaction, as AMD has accused them of implementing a "sluggish" API which doesn't allow AMD's cards to run to their full potential.

#4
Posted 09/26/2013 03:14 PM   
You know, JnLoader, I was thinking right about you in my previous post. So Nvidia releases proprietary crap with a godlike mentality and AMD is the hero of today for doing a potentially more vicious move which involves proprietary technology as well? Well, I wonder why you still own Nvidia and keep posting here. You've said it many times, now do it: go AMD, already!
You know, JnLoader, I was thinking right about you in my previous post. So Nvidia releases proprietary crap with a godlike mentality and AMD is the hero of today for doing a potentially more vicious move which involves proprietary technology as well? Well, I wonder why you still own Nvidia and keep posting here. You've said it many times, now do it: go AMD, already!

#5
Posted 09/26/2013 03:56 PM   
actually, AMD mantle is an open API, it could even work with Nvidia cards, that's the big risk for 3d vision since it could make directx obsolete if it really succeeds. Does Linux have any 3d vision support? If not, steam box is a big problem for 3d vision too.
actually, AMD mantle is an open API, it could even work with Nvidia cards, that's the big risk for 3d vision since it could make directx obsolete if it really succeeds.

Does Linux have any 3d vision support? If not, steam box is a big problem for 3d vision too.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#6
Posted 09/26/2013 04:07 PM   
Sorry, birthright, but it's not open source. It's not open according to the article provided by JnLoader: "AMD has traditionally championed open source over proprietary code (think OpenCL vs. CUDA) but in the case of Mantle, the firm has been very specific about the fact that Mantle is designed around its own Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture". Also, it makes sense, because this is a low level, "to the metal" API. In order to work on Nvidia, it should include specific functions centered around Nvidia's own hardware specifications, which doesn't seem to be the case, obviously. What worries me about Mantle is not just the fact that it may kill 3D Vision, but the fact that AMD wants us to go back to 1998, when it was GLIDE against the world and the PC gaming market has deeply changed since then. Do you really think multiplatform developers will want to embed 3 different wrappers to their lazy PC ports when they all think PC is no longer a leading gaming platform? AMD's tech is potentially bad for business as it attempts to establish a monopoly and it may hurt its makers as well, if it doesn't produce desired results. P.S. JnLoader, read Eurogamer more carefully and please, stop insulting people you don't know and who are not insulting you
Sorry, birthright, but it's not open source. It's not open according to the article provided by JnLoader: "AMD has traditionally championed open source over proprietary code (think OpenCL vs. CUDA) but in the case of Mantle, the firm has been very specific about the fact that Mantle is designed around its own Graphics Core Next (GCN) architecture".
Also, it makes sense, because this is a low level, "to the metal" API. In order to work on Nvidia, it should include specific functions centered around Nvidia's own hardware specifications, which doesn't seem to be the case, obviously.
What worries me about Mantle is not just the fact that it may kill 3D Vision, but the fact that AMD wants us to go back to 1998, when it was GLIDE against the world and the PC gaming market has deeply changed since then. Do you really think multiplatform developers will want to embed 3 different wrappers to their lazy PC ports when they all think PC is no longer a leading gaming platform? AMD's tech is potentially bad for business as it attempts to establish a monopoly and it may hurt its makers as well, if it doesn't produce desired results.

P.S. JnLoader, read Eurogamer more carefully and please, stop insulting people you don't know and who are not insulting you

#7
Posted 09/26/2013 04:37 PM   
Its a non-concern. Its like physx, no developer who isnt being paid will use it and they have to use mantle in conjunction with directx because of nvidia cards/dated amd cards. [My opinion] Anywho, this is the reasoning behind it. AMD sponsors game, like tomb raider and it runs just as well if not better on nvidia cards. Mantle is almost certainly going to be AMD only. While its "open" its not really. Physx is open but it designed for nvidia cards as is mantle to amd. Its only going to be used instead of directx on AMD compatible cards. So a developer will have to basically do the work twice. If I had to guess this is probably going to be Frostbyte only. Maybe Cryengine as well. Its probably only worth it if you "buy-out" an engine.
Its a non-concern. Its like physx, no developer who isnt being paid will use it and they have to use mantle in conjunction with directx because of nvidia cards/dated amd cards.

[My opinion]
Anywho, this is the reasoning behind it. AMD sponsors game, like tomb raider and it runs just as well if not better on nvidia cards.
Mantle is almost certainly going to be AMD only. While its "open" its not really. Physx is open but it designed for nvidia cards as is mantle to amd.
Its only going to be used instead of directx on AMD compatible cards. So a developer will have to basically do the work twice.
If I had to guess this is probably going to be Frostbyte only. Maybe Cryengine as well. Its probably only worth it if you "buy-out" an engine.

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#8
Posted 09/26/2013 05:30 PM   
[quote="birthright"]actually, AMD mantle is an open API, it could even work with Nvidia cards, that's the big risk for 3d vision since it could make directx obsolete if it really succeeds. Does Linux have any 3d vision support? If not, steam box is a big problem for 3d vision too.[/quote] Linux has 3D Vision support even 3D Surround Vision however there is no AUTOMATIC like in DirectX..but if your game has native 3D Rendering it works (even on GTX cards with some hacks) Definitely will not kill 3D Vision. As for the Mantle-cr@p...come'on I don't see developers learning ANOTHER API (this time even better...low-level) and make the same ENGINE in 2 APIs... This is the reason they ditched OpenGl in the first place... I remember alot of games in 95-00 having a dual rendering method until they ditched the OpenGL part... Is a pain in the ass to make an engine/rendered in 2 Apis... SO I believe they will defo stick with DirectX as is cross platform. As for OpenGL and SteamOS..sure Valve can port and work with the developer to port an engine to OpenGL. You will see..a game will launch on Windows 1st and some time later will get a Linux version as well... Ofc, indie games will have the advantage (like now) of supporting both platforms from start;)) Still defo not a killer.
birthright said:actually, AMD mantle is an open API, it could even work with Nvidia cards, that's the big risk for 3d vision since it could make directx obsolete if it really succeeds.

Does Linux have any 3d vision support? If not, steam box is a big problem for 3d vision too.


Linux has 3D Vision support even 3D Surround Vision however there is no AUTOMATIC like in DirectX..but if your game has native 3D Rendering it works (even on GTX cards with some hacks)

Definitely will not kill 3D Vision.

As for the Mantle-cr@p...come'on I don't see developers learning ANOTHER API (this time even better...low-level) and make the same ENGINE in 2 APIs...
This is the reason they ditched OpenGl in the first place... I remember alot of games in 95-00 having a dual rendering method until they ditched the OpenGL part... Is a pain in the ass to make an engine/rendered in 2 Apis...

SO I believe they will defo stick with DirectX as is cross platform.

As for OpenGL and SteamOS..sure Valve can port and work with the developer to port an engine to OpenGL. You will see..a game will launch on Windows 1st and some time later will get a Linux version as well... Ofc, indie games will have the advantage (like now) of supporting both platforms from start;))
Still defo not a killer.

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#9
Posted 09/26/2013 06:46 PM   
@Ricky Martyr. Fair enough sorry for the harsh words, it was over the top..sorry for that!!
@Ricky Martyr.
Fair enough sorry for the harsh words, it was over the top..sorry for that!!

#10
Posted 09/26/2013 09:12 PM   
[quote="Kolreth"]Just what PCs need, more fragmentation of the market console style. *edit* Or maybe it will end up like the performance of their cards. Good in theory, lacking in implementation.[/quote] This what appears to be happening. I fear for games becoming QTE interactive movies where one can sit on the couch in front of there super huge screen and button mash. Streamline and dumb it down baby...
Kolreth said:Just what PCs need, more fragmentation of the market console style. *edit* Or maybe it will end up like the performance of their cards. Good in theory, lacking in implementation.


This what appears to be happening. I fear for games becoming QTE interactive movies where one can sit on the couch in front of there super huge screen and button mash. Streamline and dumb it down baby...

#11
Posted 09/27/2013 12:00 AM   
[quote="JnLoader"]@Ricky Martyr. Fair enough sorry for the harsh words, it was over the top..sorry for that!![/quote] No problem, really :)
JnLoader said:@Ricky Martyr.
Fair enough sorry for the harsh words, it was over the top..sorry for that!!


No problem, really :)

#12
Posted 09/27/2013 12:02 AM   
Man, I hope you guys are right about it not taking off. Monopolies are bad at the best of times. A monopoly by a company that makes B-grade video cards and D-grade CPUs is a drab prospect indeed. I wish AMD all the best because I want them to provide better competition for Nvidia than they have been. But not with crap like this. I'm also very relieved (even more so) to hear that the SteamBox won't necessarily kill 3D. I think the days when our hobby is called "PC gaming" are numbered, as it becomes more and more centered around Valve, and less and less around Microsoft. I've never had any desire whatsoever to try Linux, though at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if it'll be my main OS by, say, 2016, as Windows continues to drop into irrelevance. I can't see Microsoft surviving as a company. Desktop computing is dying, mobile computing is out of their league, console gaming isn't the king of the jungle anymore, and their disinterest in PC gaming has let Valve take that piece of the pie for themselves. I won't be surprised if Microsoft don't exist at all in 10 years. It's been quite a sorry spectacle, watching a monopoly-hungry corporation keep grabbing at air as it loses its grip one by one on everything it once held dear. Valve is a monopoly-driven company too, which is not great (though in their case it's more about the fact that no one has given them any decent competition). But at least they're more likely to treat PC gaming more competently than Microsoft ever did. And they seem to care about 3D a little more than Nvidia do, so maybe that's a good thing too. EDIT: Actually, I have to say the principle of mantle is excellent. No more having to have a PC 10 times more powerful than a console just to get 3 times the performance. Though I hope they or someone comes up with a solidly working 3D solution in it.
Man, I hope you guys are right about it not taking off. Monopolies are bad at the best of times. A monopoly by a company that makes B-grade video cards and D-grade CPUs is a drab prospect indeed. I wish AMD all the best because I want them to provide better competition for Nvidia than they have been. But not with crap like this.

I'm also very relieved (even more so) to hear that the SteamBox won't necessarily kill 3D. I think the days when our hobby is called "PC gaming" are numbered, as it becomes more and more centered around Valve, and less and less around Microsoft.

I've never had any desire whatsoever to try Linux, though at this rate I wouldn't be surprised if it'll be my main OS by, say, 2016, as Windows continues to drop into irrelevance.

I can't see Microsoft surviving as a company. Desktop computing is dying, mobile computing is out of their league, console gaming isn't the king of the jungle anymore, and their disinterest in PC gaming has let Valve take that piece of the pie for themselves. I won't be surprised if Microsoft don't exist at all in 10 years.

It's been quite a sorry spectacle, watching a monopoly-hungry corporation keep grabbing at air as it loses its grip one by one on everything it once held dear.

Valve is a monopoly-driven company too, which is not great (though in their case it's more about the fact that no one has given them any decent competition). But at least they're more likely to treat PC gaming more competently than Microsoft ever did. And they seem to care about 3D a little more than Nvidia do, so maybe that's a good thing too.



EDIT: Actually, I have to say the principle of mantle is excellent. No more having to have a PC 10 times more powerful than a console just to get 3 times the performance. Though I hope they or someone comes up with a solidly working 3D solution in it.

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#13
Posted 09/27/2013 02:13 AM   
Hard for me to understand this other than simply the latest corporate bullshit move. Somewhere in the last 10 years, corporations forgot that the way to really make money is to not screw your customers. Walled garden anyone? Here is a more informed opinion on why, and what it likely means: [url]http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn[/url] Welcome back to Glide.
Hard for me to understand this other than simply the latest corporate bullshit move. Somewhere in the last 10 years, corporations forgot that the way to really make money is to not screw your customers. Walled garden anyone?

Here is a more informed opinion on why, and what it likely means:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn


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#14
Posted 09/27/2013 03:51 AM   
Why bother with the customer's needs (and wallets) when they're intoxicated with the earnings of their employee's.
Why bother with the customer's needs (and wallets) when they're intoxicated with the earnings of their employee's.

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#15
Posted 09/27/2013 04:08 AM   
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