3DTV - New to 3D, help me understand relationship of convergence setting and crosstalk
Hi Guys, New to the world of 3D and using Nvidia's latest drivers with purchased 3DTV software to my Song KDL46HX853 television. If I set the depth in Nvidia control panel to anything above say 20% I get dual imaging (I beleive this is crosstalk....?) so if I shut one eye I can see the other eyes image as a shadow to the main image. If I use the ctrl F5/F6 shortcut to tune the convergence setting in game (or Nvidia test image) I can get them to line up perfectly (no shadowing) but only in either the foreground or background... not both. So am I getting crosstalk caused by my tv (even though I can get the images to line up perfectly in areas with the convergence setting) or do I just need to fiddle with my Nvidia 3DTV settings more? Thanks guys, and sorry for the long post!!! Edit - I'll take a screenshot later and post! Rich
Hi Guys,

New to the world of 3D and using Nvidia's latest drivers with purchased 3DTV software to my Song KDL46HX853 television.

If I set the depth in Nvidia control panel to anything above say 20% I get dual imaging (I beleive this is crosstalk....?) so if I shut one eye I can see the other eyes image as a shadow to the main image.

If I use the ctrl F5/F6 shortcut to tune the convergence setting in game (or Nvidia test image) I can get them to line up perfectly (no shadowing) but only in either the foreground or background... not both.

So am I getting crosstalk caused by my tv (even though I can get the images to line up perfectly in areas with the convergence setting) or do I just need to fiddle with my Nvidia 3DTV settings more?

Thanks guys, and sorry for the long post!!!

Edit - I'll take a screenshot later and post!

Rich

#1
Posted 01/04/2013 12:24 PM   
Crcsstalk should only be noticeable in areas of high contrast, things like a black building against the white clouds in the sky. How much are you getting?
Crcsstalk should only be noticeable in areas of high contrast, things like a black building against the white clouds in the sky. How much are you getting?

#2
Posted 01/04/2013 04:41 PM   
Hey, I now understand its a coincidence when convergence fixes my crosstalk. Seems it must be my television... which the reviews said no crosstalk!! Hmm! Oh well, means I can only really play games at about 15% depth which sucks!
Hey, I now understand its a coincidence when convergence fixes my crosstalk.

Seems it must be my television... which the reviews said no crosstalk!! Hmm! Oh well, means I can only really play games at about 15% depth which sucks!

#3
Posted 01/06/2013 10:13 PM   
well actually convergence can help reduce crosstalk a bit. if you take off your glasses you will see both pictures over each other (no 3d) you can now increase convergence so that important parts of the picture become one. for instance if you play skyrim in 3d person view and want to focus on you character you take off the glasses and increase your convergance to a state where your character becomes one picture (not two anymore) you character will have no crosstalk anymore - still the other objects will have. it doesnt solve the problem but you can reduce it in some areas with this. hope you understand what i mean - eng. is not my native language and its hard to describe ;) actually its exactly the way you described it in your OP. edit: as for crosstalk afaik there is no device out there right now which doesnt have it at all. every monitor gets crosstalk and even my brothers 3d vision projector has it (but barely noticable) normaly it should be only seen in areas with high contrast. but there are games which have it almost anywhere. crosstalk can be very game dependent - you should try out more then one game to see if its your hardwares fault imo
well actually convergence can help reduce crosstalk a bit. if you take off your glasses you will see both pictures over each other (no 3d) you can now increase convergence so that important parts of the picture become one.

for instance if you play skyrim in 3d person view and want to focus on you character you take off the glasses and increase your convergance to a state where your character becomes one picture (not two anymore) you character will have no crosstalk anymore - still the other objects will have.

it doesnt solve the problem but you can reduce it in some areas with this.

hope you understand what i mean - eng. is not my native language and its hard to describe ;)

actually its exactly the way you described it in your OP.


edit: as for crosstalk afaik there is no device out there right now which doesnt have it at all.
every monitor gets crosstalk and even my brothers 3d vision projector has it (but barely noticable)

normaly it should be only seen in areas with high contrast. but there are games which have it almost anywhere. crosstalk can be very game dependent - you should try out more then one game to see if its your hardwares fault imo

#4
Posted 01/06/2013 10:18 PM   
No crosstalk is impossible, I think those head mounted Sony things might have none (?) but thats it. If you can, post up a picture through one lens of the glasses, so we can see if what you're getting is acceptable. Typically I don't find depth and convergence to effect the amount of crosstalk I get at all, only thing that effects it is the contrast ratio. If thats sky high you might be able to see two full images even when wearing the glasses.
No crosstalk is impossible, I think those head mounted Sony things might have none (?) but thats it. If you can, post up a picture through one lens of the glasses, so we can see if what you're getting is acceptable.

Typically I don't find depth and convergence to effect the amount of crosstalk I get at all, only thing that effects it is the contrast ratio. If thats sky high you might be able to see two full images even when wearing the glasses.

#5
Posted 01/07/2013 12:23 AM   
Well, I run an Acer H5360 DLP projector, and it has [i]zero[/i] crosstalk. DLP TV's also have zero crosstalk. The DLP technology is in fact crosstalk free. The micro-mirrors switch fast enough that you do not get any lags, and because they are mirrors, there is no residual light coming from the screen (like a fading phosphor for CRT), as it's bounced light, not sourced light like an LCD. With bad glasses, it's also possible to still have crosstalk with DLP, if they do not get dark enough to alternately block out each eye. With NVidia 3D Vision, this has never been a problem for me, including very bright scenes, with high contrast, high dynamic range. If you have the space for it, I cannot recommend the Acer + 3D Vision setup more highly. $700 or so, so it stings, but is waaay better than LCD monitors. I tried those 120Hz monitors too, and was not satisfied. We should be clear that you can still get crosstalk in games, but those are game bugs, not the underlying technology.
Well, I run an Acer H5360 DLP projector, and it has zero crosstalk. DLP TV's also have zero crosstalk. The DLP technology is in fact crosstalk free.

The micro-mirrors switch fast enough that you do not get any lags, and because they are mirrors, there is no residual light coming from the screen (like a fading phosphor for CRT), as it's bounced light, not sourced light like an LCD.

With bad glasses, it's also possible to still have crosstalk with DLP, if they do not get dark enough to alternately block out each eye. With NVidia 3D Vision, this has never been a problem for me, including very bright scenes, with high contrast, high dynamic range.

If you have the space for it, I cannot recommend the Acer + 3D Vision setup more highly. $700 or so, so it stings, but is waaay better than LCD monitors. I tried those 120Hz monitors too, and was not satisfied.


We should be clear that you can still get crosstalk in games, but those are game bugs, not the underlying technology.

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#6
Posted 01/07/2013 01:40 AM   
As Bo3b says, his acer is awsome, the h5360bd i had had zero xtalk using the black xtalk test over on 3dvisionblog, this means in a dark room where there is no light to effect contrast i see a completely black screen ! Some things do have zero xtalk thats a fact and not fiction. Allso a benqw 710st has zero xtalk. Somethings i'll piont out. Optoma zd201 glasses have zero xtalk, 3dvision glasses have zero xtalk, cheap 3d glasses from ebay has no xtalk in films/games but shows the black test with xtalk. So there is hardware out there that does'nt have xtalk and there are glasses out tehre that can make hardware with zero xtalk have some ;) The 2 dlp projectors i had i gamed at 100% depth, fair enough this is'nt the same 100% depth you get on a monitor as its capped on pj but still its enough to get a fully imersive game with 3d and zero xtalk. You should find that nearly all 3dtv's in 2012 show the white test pefectly, they stumble when it comes to the black test. If your tv is infront of a window then close the curtains as the contrast from the light outside can hide the xtalk on the black test ;) http://3dvision-blog.com/4056-stereo-3d-display-crosstalk-test-photos-with-some-results/
As Bo3b says, his acer is awsome, the h5360bd i had had zero xtalk using the black xtalk test over on 3dvisionblog, this means in a dark room where there is no light to effect contrast i see a completely black screen !
Some things do have zero xtalk thats a fact and not fiction.

Allso a benqw 710st has zero xtalk.

Somethings i'll piont out.

Optoma zd201 glasses have zero xtalk, 3dvision glasses have zero xtalk, cheap 3d glasses from ebay has no xtalk in films/games but shows the black test with xtalk.

So there is hardware out there that does'nt have xtalk and there are glasses out tehre that can make hardware with zero xtalk have some ;)

The 2 dlp projectors i had i gamed at 100% depth, fair enough this is'nt the same 100% depth you get on a monitor as its capped on pj but still its enough to get a fully imersive game with 3d and zero xtalk.


You should find that nearly all 3dtv's in 2012 show the white test pefectly, they stumble when it comes to the black test.
If your tv is infront of a window then close the curtains as the contrast from the light outside can hide the xtalk on the black test ;)

http://3dvision-blog.com/4056-stereo-3d-display-crosstalk-test-photos-with-some-results/

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#7
Posted 01/07/2013 11:19 AM   
Thanks guys thats very helpful, it was dark souls i was playing which does have very sever contrasts in whites and blacks but I seem to get it in Arkham city and Skyrim too. Double edges of all buildings etc. I'll take a photo tonight and post it! I have a feeling that my image will be quite bad compared to the two in that article!! Thanks again
Thanks guys thats very helpful, it was dark souls i was playing which does have very sever contrasts in whites and blacks but I seem to get it in Arkham city and Skyrim too. Double edges of all buildings etc.

I'll take a photo tonight and post it! I have a feeling that my image will be quite bad compared to the two in that article!!

Thanks again

#8
Posted 01/07/2013 11:39 AM   
thats odd - i have almost no ghosting with dark souls.. only water problems which can be solved with helix fix.
thats odd - i have almost no ghosting with dark souls.. only water problems which can be solved with helix fix.

#9
Posted 01/07/2013 04:31 PM   
Well I have tried the test, with the white image I get one eye of white (a pass!) and the other a slightly too bright version of the picture (i assume this is the white leaking through). However with the black I get one eye the picture perfectly but the other... which should be black, I get a slightly darker version of the full picture! not just shadows but every detail Id say. I'll post a picture tonight but does that sound like my screen has a problem to you guys?! Thanks again
Well I have tried the test, with the white image I get one eye of white (a pass!) and the other a slightly too bright version of the picture (i assume this is the white leaking through).

However with the black I get one eye the picture perfectly but the other... which should be black, I get a slightly darker version of the full picture! not just shadows but every detail Id say. I'll post a picture tonight but does that sound like my screen has a problem to you guys?!

Thanks again

#10
Posted 01/08/2013 11:22 AM   
^^^^ Sadly what your describing sounds like you can see the picture through the black and the white test? If this is true then sadly you do have a very poor performing tv, sometimes some various settings can help allieviate some xtalk like my plasma has a entertain and standard mode using a pc label and the entertain mode increases xtalk abit. All the 3dtv's i've had over the last year or more have passed the white test perfectly but some are bad on teh black, and only 2 things i have seen that passes the black test 100% is 2x dlp projectors through non generic cheap glasses, ie optoma or 3dvision glasses Infact i've had around 15 3dtv's and the e6500 plasma i have now is one of the worst 3d performers i've had :( bummer ! Choose your 3dtv wisely or chase the 3d by spending money and returning sets
^^^^

Sadly what your describing sounds like you can see the picture through the black and the white test?

If this is true then sadly you do have a very poor performing tv, sometimes some various settings can help allieviate some xtalk like my plasma has a entertain and standard mode using a pc label and the entertain mode increases xtalk abit.

All the 3dtv's i've had over the last year or more have passed the white test perfectly but some are bad on teh black, and only 2 things i have seen that passes the black test 100% is 2x dlp projectors through non generic cheap glasses, ie optoma or 3dvision glasses

Infact i've had around 15 3dtv's and the e6500 plasma i have now is one of the worst 3d performers i've had :( bummer !

Choose your 3dtv wisely or chase the 3d by spending money and returning sets

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#11
Posted 01/08/2013 12:12 PM   
I only just brought it and it reviewed well for crosstalk so I'm now wondering if its a dud... hmm!! Guess I'll phone my dealer!
I only just brought it and it reviewed well for crosstalk so I'm now wondering if its a dud... hmm!! Guess I'll phone my dealer!

#12
Posted 01/08/2013 12:52 PM   
imho theres a good chance that the next tv will be like this, i have brought tv's after reading reviews and found them tobe wrong on a few pionts ;)
imho theres a good chance that the next tv will be like this, i have brought tv's after reading reviews and found them tobe wrong on a few pionts ;)

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#13
Posted 01/08/2013 05:04 PM   
So here are my results from this test: http://3dvision-blog.com/4056-stereo-3d-display-crosstalk-test-photos-with-some-results/comment-page-1/#comment-23077 They are not good!!!!!!!!!!!!! [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/pic4whitetestr.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/23/pic4whitetestr.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/pic3whitetestl.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/837/pic3whitetestl.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/pic2blacktestr.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/42/pic2blacktestr.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/pic1blacktestl.jpg/][IMG]http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/833/pic1blacktestl.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
So here are my results from this test:

http://3dvision-blog.com/4056-stereo-3d-display-crosstalk-test-photos-with-some-results/comment-page-1/#comment-23077

They are not good!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Image
Image
Image
Image

#14
Posted 01/10/2013 12:41 PM   
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