3D Vision needs a hardware upgrade
  2 / 2    
Fuck glasses. Nvidia should release a 3D vision monitor which doesn't need glasses like the Nintendo 3DS. Ok, the technology might not work for TV's with all the required viewing angles for people sat in different positions in the room. For one player though, sat smack bang in front of the screen, it would work perfectly. You can get curved screens now so getting the perfect angle shouldn't be too hard either. Talk about missing a trick! Bring our a Nvidia 3D vision monitor without glasses and update 3D TV Play for higher resolutions. WTF do Nvidia spend their gaming R&D budget on exactly? It sure as shit not their propriety technologies! They need to spend more money on holographic research IMO. Its taking far too long....... (I just want to play guitar hero in a holodeck picking out dream bands members to jam with. Imagine being able to play in a holographic version of Woodstock jamming along with Jimi Hendrix on stage!
Fuck glasses.
Nvidia should release a 3D vision monitor which doesn't need glasses like the Nintendo 3DS.
Ok, the technology might not work for TV's with all the required viewing angles for people sat in different positions in the room.
For one player though, sat smack bang in front of the screen, it would work perfectly.

You can get curved screens now so getting the perfect angle shouldn't be too hard either.

Talk about missing a trick!

Bring our a Nvidia 3D vision monitor without glasses and update 3D TV Play for higher resolutions.

WTF do Nvidia spend their gaming R&D budget on exactly? It sure as shit not their propriety technologies!

They need to spend more money on holographic research IMO. Its taking far too long.......
(I just want to play guitar hero in a holodeck picking out dream bands members to jam with.
Imagine being able to play in a holographic version of Woodstock jamming along with Jimi Hendrix on stage!

#16
Posted 08/17/2017 10:17 PM   
I "love" this new log-in bullshit. Thanks NGreedia. Yeah if they could replicate what Nintendo did with the 3DS on a computer monitor that would be really awesome.
I "love" this new log-in bullshit. Thanks NGreedia.

Yeah if they could replicate what Nintendo did with the 3DS on a computer monitor that would be really awesome.

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#17
Posted 08/18/2017 03:26 AM   
A parallax barrier in the style of Nintendo 3Ds does not scale well with monitor size. You can't move your head at all to keep the 3D effect (you can't even slightly turn your head sideways to look at objects on the sides of the monitor, or your eyes move into the wrong eye space. The 3DS also has the advantage of being a hand-held. You can correct the tilt of the screen with your hands instantly if you move your head a few centimetres off axis. Comfortable glasses-free 3D requires 4+ multi-view (preferably more to hide transitions from one view to the next). Which means you need significantly more pixel in the panel than visible to the eye. A 4K panel can only support a 1080p image (preferably 720p to hide transitions). Or if you prefer the reverse logic : if you want to watch a super crisp 4K image, you need at minimum an 8K panel (preferably ~10K to hide transitions). This fundamental technical requirement has dramatic consequences : -> Glasses free 3D on a big screen requires a very expensive display which puts it out of reach of pretty much everybody. -> If new panels make higher resolutions more affordable, 2D content will use the resolution. Therefore glasses free 3D will be significantly inferior in image quality, and people won't buy them in sufficient quantity to make the tech affordable.
A parallax barrier in the style of Nintendo 3Ds does not scale well with monitor size.
You can't move your head at all to keep the 3D effect (you can't even slightly turn your head sideways to look at objects on the sides of the monitor, or your eyes move into the wrong eye space.

The 3DS also has the advantage of being a hand-held. You can correct the tilt of the screen with your hands instantly if you move your head a few centimetres off axis.

Comfortable glasses-free 3D requires 4+ multi-view (preferably more to hide transitions from one view to the next). Which means you need significantly more pixel in the panel than visible to the eye.
A 4K panel can only support a 1080p image (preferably 720p to hide transitions).
Or if you prefer the reverse logic :
if you want to watch a super crisp 4K image, you need at minimum an 8K panel (preferably ~10K to hide transitions).

This fundamental technical requirement has dramatic consequences :
-> Glasses free 3D on a big screen requires a very expensive display which puts it out of reach of pretty much everybody.
-> If new panels make higher resolutions more affordable, 2D content will use the resolution. Therefore glasses free 3D will be significantly inferior in image quality, and people won't buy them in sufficient quantity to make the tech affordable.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#18
Posted 08/18/2017 07:49 AM   
[quote="xXxStarManxXx"]I "love" this new log-in bullshit. Thanks NGreedia. Yeah if they could replicate what Nintendo did with the 3DS on a computer monitor that would be really awesome. [/quote] I have this eerie feeling shadowplay stopped working for me when I linked the account, as well. I don't get the share button at all anymore in GFE and this is on both OS my system can boot into. WTF
xXxStarManxXx said:I "love" this new log-in bullshit. Thanks NGreedia.

Yeah if they could replicate what Nintendo did with the 3DS on a computer monitor that would be really awesome.


I have this eerie feeling shadowplay stopped working for me when I linked the account, as well.
I don't get the share button at all anymore in GFE and this is on both OS my system can boot into. WTF

i7-4790K CPU 4.8Ghz stable overclock.
16 GB RAM Corsair
EVGA 1080TI SLI
Samsung SSD 840Pro
ASUS Z97-WS
3D Surround ASUS Rog Swift PG278Q(R), 2x PG278Q (yes it works)
Obutto R3volution.
Windows 10 pro 64x (Windows 7 Dual boot)

#19
Posted 08/18/2017 11:32 AM   
I would be happy using a little pasive clip over my regular glasses. With a bit of effort/investment maybe it is possible to create a really good pasive system without losing half of the resolution each eye. Why not Nvidia selling a specific "Nvida oled monitor" with pasive clip/glasses to play properly without active flickering?... But please, change the desing of your hardware, it is very unpleasent for my eyes, make it more elegant and less freaking "gamer" with such glossy sh*ts and futuristic/robotic lines. They should fire the design advisory department.
I would be happy using a little pasive clip over my regular glasses. With a bit of effort/investment maybe it is possible to create a really good pasive system without losing half of the resolution each eye.

Why not Nvidia selling a specific "Nvida oled monitor" with pasive clip/glasses to play properly without active flickering?... But please, change the desing of your hardware, it is very unpleasent for my eyes, make it more elegant and less freaking "gamer" with such glossy sh*ts and futuristic/robotic lines. They should fire the design advisory department.

- Windows 7 64bits (SSD OCZ-Vertez2 128Gb)
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#20
Posted 08/18/2017 03:41 PM   
[quote="Duerf"]I would be happy using a little pasive clip over my regular glasses. With a bit of effort/investment maybe it is possible to create a really good pasive system without losing half of the resolution each eye.[/quote] Such systems exist. They require some effort and investment. Solution #1 : Dual projectors (what I use) Extra effort : it's a projector system (95% of the PC gaming market is already gone). No manufacturer produces an all-in-one unit, so you have to build your own system. Extra investment : 2x cost of the projector, and if you want the light clipons glasses you'll need to use polarized filters, meaning a special screen material that preserves poalrisation. Tridef compatibility for free, but 3D Vision compatibility requires an extra piece of kit to convert 3D Vision's frame sequential format to dual-outputs, or buy a Quadro (even more expensive) Solution # 2 : Mirror dual displays (often nicknamed a "Planar" system, from the name of the company that makes them) Extra effort : the screen isn't flat. a 50-50 semi transparent mirror angled at 45° stands in front of your screen and occupies a significant amount of space in front of your display Extra investment : 2x cost of display, a 50-50 mirror, extra support gear to hold the top display, requires special displays with their polarizing filters set at precise angles. Same as for dual-PJs, 3D Vision compatibility requires a format converter, or a Quadro. Solution #3 : The iZ3D way (named after the company that used to make them, now bankrupt) Extra effort : Very THICK monitor due to the massive backlight required and associated cooling Extra investment : 2 LCD panels stacked on top of each other. (The back panel produces colour for both eyes simultaneously, the front panel twists polarisation to distribute the light between the eyes on a sub-pixel level). Drawback : The two consecutive LCD layers kill a significant amount of light. An extra strong backlight is required. The sandwich produces a high amount of crosstalk due to light going sideways between pixels (same issue as FPR, but in both horizontal and vertical directions simultaneously). Extra research required to fix it (probably an expensive optical layer to control the light patch through the LCD sandwich). Image format is not supported by Nvidia. (iZ3D used to make it's own driver, I used it back in the days, it was pretty good)
Duerf said:I would be happy using a little pasive clip over my regular glasses. With a bit of effort/investment maybe it is possible to create a really good pasive system without losing half of the resolution each eye.

Such systems exist. They require some effort and investment.

Solution #1 : Dual projectors (what I use)
Extra effort : it's a projector system (95% of the PC gaming market is already gone). No manufacturer produces an all-in-one unit, so you have to build your own system.
Extra investment : 2x cost of the projector, and if you want the light clipons glasses you'll need to use polarized filters, meaning a special screen material that preserves poalrisation. Tridef compatibility for free, but 3D Vision compatibility requires an extra piece of kit to convert 3D Vision's frame sequential format to dual-outputs, or buy a Quadro (even more expensive)

Solution # 2 : Mirror dual displays (often nicknamed a "Planar" system, from the name of the company that makes them)
Extra effort : the screen isn't flat. a 50-50 semi transparent mirror angled at 45° stands in front of your screen and occupies a significant amount of space in front of your display
Extra investment : 2x cost of display, a 50-50 mirror, extra support gear to hold the top display, requires special displays with their polarizing filters set at precise angles. Same as for dual-PJs, 3D Vision compatibility requires a format converter, or a Quadro.

Solution #3 : The iZ3D way (named after the company that used to make them, now bankrupt)
Extra effort : Very THICK monitor due to the massive backlight required and associated cooling
Extra investment : 2 LCD panels stacked on top of each other. (The back panel produces colour for both eyes simultaneously, the front panel twists polarisation to distribute the light between the eyes on a sub-pixel level).
Drawback : The two consecutive LCD layers kill a significant amount of light. An extra strong backlight is required. The sandwich produces a high amount of crosstalk due to light going sideways between pixels (same issue as FPR, but in both horizontal and vertical directions simultaneously).
Extra research required to fix it (probably an expensive optical layer to control the light patch through the LCD sandwich).
Image format is not supported by Nvidia. (iZ3D used to make it's own driver, I used it back in the days, it was pretty good)

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#21
Posted 08/18/2017 10:20 PM   
Ok, but I was thinking on a "easy to use" and aforable monitor (preferable OLED). Mirror dual display and PJ's are "big" things to use, and they have other problems related to price and confort. The iZ3D is something I have no idea about, but it seems not to be better solution than using what we use now with active glasses. I think what 3D vision needs is: 1) A simple monitor easy_to_use/aforable/portable solution. OLED tech if possible, with zero ghosting. 2) The simplest pasive clip/glasses (to improve confort and to prevent flickering and too much darkness). 3) An special chip or something integrated in nvidia videocards, dedicated only to 3D vision, preventing any framerate lost when playing using 3D (to prevent motion sickness related to chopy gameplay below 60 fps). Currently what I have is a 3D experience with flickering dark images, lower framerate than desired, variable crosstalk depending on the game, and unconfortable/ugly big freaking glasses. As a result I can not play too much time without feeling my eyes a bit tyred. The only way to minimize that sickness is buying a very expenisive hardware to minimize stutterings and have smooth gameplay to prevent motion sickness, but think about the tech in general..., only a few people have 1080TI videocars to achieve 60 fps in 3D, so everybody else has to deal with choppy things. And even in that situation we still have to deal with flickering and ghosting, and that hurts.
Ok, but I was thinking on a "easy to use" and aforable monitor (preferable OLED). Mirror dual display and PJ's are "big" things to use, and they have other problems related to price and confort. The iZ3D is something I have no idea about, but it seems not to be better solution than using what we use now with active glasses.

I think what 3D vision needs is:

1) A simple monitor easy_to_use/aforable/portable solution. OLED tech if possible, with zero ghosting.

2) The simplest pasive clip/glasses (to improve confort and to prevent flickering and too much darkness).

3) An special chip or something integrated in nvidia videocards, dedicated only to 3D vision, preventing any framerate lost when playing using 3D (to prevent motion sickness related to chopy gameplay below 60 fps).




Currently what I have is a 3D experience with flickering dark images, lower framerate than desired, variable crosstalk depending on the game, and unconfortable/ugly big freaking glasses. As a result I can not play too much time without feeling my eyes a bit tyred. The only way to minimize that sickness is buying a very expenisive hardware to minimize stutterings and have smooth gameplay to prevent motion sickness, but think about the tech in general..., only a few people have 1080TI videocars to achieve 60 fps in 3D, so everybody else has to deal with choppy things. And even in that situation we still have to deal with flickering and ghosting, and that hurts.

- Windows 7 64bits (SSD OCZ-Vertez2 128Gb)
- "ASUS P6X58D-E" motherboard
- "MSI GTX 660 TI"
- "Intel Xeon X5670" @4000MHz CPU (20.0[12-25]x200MHz)
- RAM 16 Gb DDR3 1600
- "Dell S2716DG" monitor (2560x1440 @144Hz)
- "Corsair Carbide 600C" case
- Labrador dog (cinnamon edition)

#22
Posted 08/19/2017 07:21 AM   
The easy and cheap solutions are the exact same solutions that already exist. - Active shutter at 120+ Hz - Passive using FPR OLED is well suited for active shutter thanks to it's really fast response time (crosstalk on LCD monitors is 99% caused by the display's LCD response time, as illustrated by DLP projectors with zero crosstalk). But if you have flicker issues on current displays, OLED won't change that. Passive FPR works similarly on most display types. It it totally flicker free, but it halves the resolution, so you need a 4K display to compensate for the reoslution loss and to hide the lines and it has a sweetspot. (or ghosting outside). One advantage of FPR is that you can run it with both Tridef and Nvidia (with Edid override), and there is no V-sync requirement (you can even use G-sync / Freesync if a manufacturer ever builds one). The closest type of display from your description would be an OLED 4K TV with passive 3D from last year (hurry, LG stopped making them). Apart from that, the next "perfect" display would be a head mounted display. I believe LG is currently prototyping a next gen SteamVR headset with OLED displays (the next Vive).
The easy and cheap solutions are the exact same solutions that already exist.
- Active shutter at 120+ Hz
- Passive using FPR

OLED is well suited for active shutter thanks to it's really fast response time (crosstalk on LCD monitors is 99% caused by the display's LCD response time, as illustrated by DLP projectors with zero crosstalk).
But if you have flicker issues on current displays, OLED won't change that.

Passive FPR works similarly on most display types. It it totally flicker free, but it halves the resolution, so you need a 4K display to compensate for the reoslution loss and to hide the lines and it has a sweetspot. (or ghosting outside). One advantage of FPR is that you can run it with both Tridef and Nvidia (with Edid override), and there is no V-sync requirement (you can even use G-sync / Freesync if a manufacturer ever builds one).

The closest type of display from your description would be an OLED 4K TV with passive 3D from last year (hurry, LG stopped making them).
Apart from that, the next "perfect" display would be a head mounted display. I believe LG is currently prototyping a next gen SteamVR headset with OLED displays (the next Vive).

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#23
Posted 08/19/2017 02:04 PM   
Easy is never the authesiast way Luckily not all Are as picky as we "passive 3D forever" guys Dual projector set is like heroine, you never get enough and nothing feels quite like good and its impossible to go back without.
Easy is never the authesiast way
Luckily not all Are as picky as we "passive 3D forever" guys
Dual projector set is like heroine, you never get enough and nothing feels quite like good and its impossible to go back without.

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#24
Posted 08/19/2017 04:02 PM   
What F is wrong with this forum. After the password change posting with mobile has proved to be F labor. First line is published and all else is cut away
What F is wrong with this forum. After the password change posting with mobile has proved to be F labor.
First line is published and all else is cut away

CoreX9 Custom watercooling (valkswagen polo radiator)
I7-8700k@stock
TitanX pascal with shitty stock cooler
Win7/10
Video: Passive 3D fullhd 3D@60hz/channel Denon x1200w /Hc5 x 2 Geobox501->eeColorBoxes->polarizers/omega filttersCustom made silverscreen
Ocupation: Enterprenior.Painting/surfacing/constructions
Interests/skills:
3D gaming,3D movies, 3D printing,Drums, Bass and guitar.
Suomi - FINLAND - perkele

#25
Posted 08/19/2017 04:03 PM   
[quote="BlackSharkfr"] Passive FPR works similarly on most display types. It it totally flicker free, but it halves the resolution, so you need a 4K display to compensate for the reoslution loss and to hide the lines and it has a sweetspot. (or ghosting outside). One advantage of FPR is that you can run it with both Tridef and Nvidia (with Edid override), and there is no V-sync requirement (you can even use G-sync / Freesync if a manufacturer ever builds one). [/quote] Ok, I have a question about that. My monitor (DELL S2716DG) happen to be 2K resolution (2560x1440 pixels), and it is also a G-SYNC monitor. So..., is there any way to apply that "EDID override" thing to this monitor to make it FPR compatible? I assume that the answer is NOT because the monitor should have implemented the same tech than 3D pasive TV's. I am not sure but FPR (if am not wrong) halves the LINES (1440x2 = 720 lines), but the number of columns remain, so my final resolution could be 2560x720 using that utopic FPR technic, and that is very aceptable for me and my 27" monitor, if I get rid of flickering, ghosting, and also can use the G-sync implementend on this monitor.
BlackSharkfr said:
Passive FPR works similarly on most display types. It it totally flicker free, but it halves the resolution, so you need a 4K display to compensate for the reoslution loss and to hide the lines and it has a sweetspot. (or ghosting outside). One advantage of FPR is that you can run it with both Tridef and Nvidia (with Edid override), and there is no V-sync requirement (you can even use G-sync / Freesync if a manufacturer ever builds one).


Ok, I have a question about that. My monitor (DELL S2716DG) happen to be 2K resolution (2560x1440 pixels), and it is also a G-SYNC monitor. So..., is there any way to apply that "EDID override" thing to this monitor to make it FPR compatible?

I assume that the answer is NOT because the monitor should have implemented the same tech than 3D pasive TV's.

I am not sure but FPR (if am not wrong) halves the LINES (1440x2 = 720 lines), but the number of columns remain, so my final resolution could be 2560x720 using that utopic FPR technic, and that is very aceptable for me and my 27" monitor, if I get rid of flickering, ghosting, and also can use the G-sync implementend on this monitor.

- Windows 7 64bits (SSD OCZ-Vertez2 128Gb)
- "ASUS P6X58D-E" motherboard
- "MSI GTX 660 TI"
- "Intel Xeon X5670" @4000MHz CPU (20.0[12-25]x200MHz)
- RAM 16 Gb DDR3 1600
- "Dell S2716DG" monitor (2560x1440 @144Hz)
- "Corsair Carbide 600C" case
- Labrador dog (cinnamon edition)

#26
Posted 08/19/2017 08:21 PM   
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film-type_patterned_retarder

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#27
Posted 08/19/2017 11:24 PM   
FPR is a hardware modification of the screen : a [b]F[/]ilm [p]P[/b]attern [b]R[/b]etarder is glued on top of the pixels. Although not technically impossible, a DIY screen modification would be very hard to pull off. You'd need to find the subcontractor that makes the film. Order one that matches exactly your screen size, number of pixels and disposition. Open your monitor case Remove the protective layer and anti-glare/reflection layer of your screen to access the LCD layer Glue the FPR with absolute perfect vertical precision (smaller than sub-pixel precision or the sweet spot will be moved/destroyed) Put your screen back together, (the anti-glare and protection layer may not be compatible with FPR and may have to be abandoned) It would probably be easier buy a display with the FPR already installed and replace the electronics with G-sync ones.
FPR is a hardware modification of the screen : a F[/]ilm [p]Pattern Retarder is glued on top of the pixels.

Although not technically impossible, a DIY screen modification would be very hard to pull off.

You'd need to find the subcontractor that makes the film.
Order one that matches exactly your screen size, number of pixels and disposition.
Open your monitor case
Remove the protective layer and anti-glare/reflection layer of your screen to access the LCD layer
Glue the FPR with absolute perfect vertical precision (smaller than sub-pixel precision or the sweet spot will be moved/destroyed)
Put your screen back together, (the anti-glare and protection layer may not be compatible with FPR and may have to be abandoned)

It would probably be easier buy a display with the FPR already installed and replace the electronics with G-sync ones.

Passive 3D forever
110" DIY dual-projection system
2x Epson EH-TW3500 (1080p) + Linear Polarizers (SPAR)
XtremScreen Daylight 2.0
VNS Geobox501 signal converter

#28
Posted 08/20/2017 07:25 PM   
[quote="GibsonRed"]Fuck glasses. Nvidia should release a 3D vision monitor which doesn't need glasses like the Nintendo 3DS. Ok, the technology might not work for TV's with all the required viewing angles for people sat in different positions in the room. For one player though, sat smack bang in front of the screen, it would work perfectly. You can get curved screens now so getting the perfect angle shouldn't be too hard either. Talk about missing a trick! Bring our a Nvidia 3D vision monitor without glasses and update 3D TV Play for higher resolutions. WTF do Nvidia spend their gaming R&D budget on exactly? It sure as shit not their propriety technologies! They need to spend more money on holographic research IMO. Its taking far too long....... (I just want to play guitar hero in a holodeck picking out dream bands members to jam with. Imagine being able to play in a holographic version of Woodstock jamming along with Jimi Hendrix on stage! [/quote] They already did. Toshiba Qosmio bought a license for it. It worked perfectly way better than the 3DS. It looked and stayed great no matter what angle you looked at it at. Downside, machine was underpowered and it got so hot it could fry steak.
GibsonRed said:Fuck glasses.
Nvidia should release a 3D vision monitor which doesn't need glasses like the Nintendo 3DS.
Ok, the technology might not work for TV's with all the required viewing angles for people sat in different positions in the room.
For one player though, sat smack bang in front of the screen, it would work perfectly.

You can get curved screens now so getting the perfect angle shouldn't be too hard either.

Talk about missing a trick!

Bring our a Nvidia 3D vision monitor without glasses and update 3D TV Play for higher resolutions.

WTF do Nvidia spend their gaming R&D budget on exactly? It sure as shit not their propriety technologies!

They need to spend more money on holographic research IMO. Its taking far too long.......
(I just want to play guitar hero in a holodeck picking out dream bands members to jam with.
Imagine being able to play in a holographic version of Woodstock jamming along with Jimi Hendrix on stage!



They already did. Toshiba Qosmio bought a license for it. It worked perfectly way better than the 3DS. It looked and stayed great no matter what angle you looked at it at. Downside, machine was underpowered and it got so hot it could fry steak.

Model: Clevo P570WM Laptop
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#29
Posted 08/21/2017 11:47 PM   
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