Off-topic: Why do people use RAR
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I am fully aware that it is free to use unrar and that unpacking RAR files is integrated into various tools. I'm pretty sure unpacking RAR does not work on either Mac or PC by default. I probably shouldn't be so price sensitive as it's only $30 per computer but considering I have four computers it does add up. You obviously don't need to buy it again when changing computers as long as you remove it from the old one. My main issue is that in the time of pretty fast internet connections the tiny compression improvements doesn't seem worth the massive cost. I used up my trial days a long time ago and for the reasons above I'm not planning on buying the software. The main reason I ask is that there are clearly RAR users on this forum considering how some fixes are distributed so that just makes me wonder what made you purchase RAR. Please don't tell me that RAR is free when it's clearly not and we are not encouraging piracy. 7-zip is an option for really squeezing down the filesize but not really recommended for simple distribution.
I am fully aware that it is free to use unrar and that unpacking RAR files is integrated into various tools. I'm pretty sure unpacking RAR does not work on either Mac or PC by default.

I probably shouldn't be so price sensitive as it's only $30 per computer but considering I have four computers it does add up. You obviously don't need to buy it again when changing computers as long as you remove it from the old one. My main issue is that in the time of pretty fast internet connections the tiny compression improvements doesn't seem worth the massive cost.

I used up my trial days a long time ago and for the reasons above I'm not planning on buying the software. The main reason I ask is that there are clearly RAR users on this forum considering how some fixes are distributed so that just makes me wonder what made you purchase RAR.

Please don't tell me that RAR is free when it's clearly not and we are not encouraging piracy.


7-zip is an option for really squeezing down the filesize but not really recommended for simple distribution.

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#1
Posted 01/25/2016 06:08 AM   
7z decompresses (and compresses to) almost all kind of formats. It's free and it's what I always use. You don't need winrar for anything.
7z decompresses (and compresses to) almost all kind of formats. It's free and it's what I always use. You don't need winrar for anything.

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#2
Posted 01/25/2016 06:32 AM   
Sorry but you are missing my point. Only WinRAR/RAR is capable of creating RAR files. Sticking to zip allows everyone to decompress without additional software. If you want to squeeze additional bytes and expect the recipient to have additional software 7z is a decent solution. Opening Linux tar.? on windows pretty much requires additional software. I did use ARJ and RAR to compress files onto multiple floppy discs but back then I didn't know how shareware worked. Not really a good excuse but whatever.
Sorry but you are missing my point. Only WinRAR/RAR is capable of creating RAR files.

Sticking to zip allows everyone to decompress without additional software.

If you want to squeeze additional bytes and expect the recipient to have additional software 7z is a decent solution. Opening Linux tar.? on windows pretty much requires additional software.

I did use ARJ and RAR to compress files onto multiple floppy discs but back then I didn't know how shareware worked. Not really a good excuse but whatever.

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#3
Posted 01/25/2016 07:36 AM   
7Z will do for most stuff, you can unpack rar aswell, so what's the real point ? Once in a while, I have to use rar, and my copy (it's NOT a pirated one), only says evaluation time expired please purchase (or something like that) but the program is still functioning ! I would say it's legal to use without purchasing it ! Obviously I dont want to buy/support a program, I only use once or twice in a year !
7Z will do for most stuff, you can unpack rar aswell, so what's the real point ?

Once in a while, I have to use rar, and my copy (it's NOT a pirated one), only says evaluation time expired please purchase (or something like that) but the program is still functioning !
I would say it's legal to use without purchasing it !

Obviously I dont want to buy/support a program, I only use once or twice in a year !

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#4
Posted 01/25/2016 08:13 AM   
A DRM free game still works if you copy it from a friend but does that make you own a copy. WinRAR is being sold and using it beyond the trial date is basically piracy at which point I uninstall rather than buy. But I guess it's worth buying for some people and I can't blame them. If I had fewer computers it could be an option though as you only pay once.
A DRM free game still works if you copy it from a friend but does that make you own a copy.

WinRAR is being sold and using it beyond the trial date is basically piracy at which point I uninstall rather than buy. But I guess it's worth buying for some people and I can't blame them. If I had fewer computers it could be an option though as you only pay once.

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#5
Posted 01/25/2016 08:56 AM   
I guess you're right, but why does the program not shut Down for the main functions after the trial has expired, like other programs ? Actually it's been a very long time since I last used it (for multi files) for all other purposes 7Z will do ! So I can live with the situation :)
I guess you're right, but why does the program not shut Down for the main functions after the trial has expired, like other programs ?

Actually it's been a very long time since I last used it (for multi files) for all other purposes 7Z will do !
So I can live with the situation :)

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#6
Posted 01/25/2016 09:36 AM   
[quote="Flugan"]Sorry but you are missing my point. Only WinRAR/RAR is capable of creating RAR files. Sticking to zip allows everyone to decompress without additional software. If you want to squeeze additional bytes and expect the recipient to have additional software 7z is a decent solution. Opening Linux tar.? on windows pretty much requires additional software. I did use ARJ and RAR to compress files onto multiple floppy discs but back then I didn't know how shareware worked. Not really a good excuse but whatever.[/quote] I agree with you. However: - Zip is only GOOD to compress plain text. On any code, the compress ratio is the worst between zip/rar/7zip - Rar is "mostly" free and is very known on the internet (more than 7zip). The compression it offers is among the best for binary code. (I think 7zip is actually the best here but the time it takes to compreess/decompress is higher). At least this is the reason I am using Rar:) and wanted to share this info.
Flugan said:Sorry but you are missing my point. Only WinRAR/RAR is capable of creating RAR files.

Sticking to zip allows everyone to decompress without additional software.

If you want to squeeze additional bytes and expect the recipient to have additional software 7z is a decent solution. Opening Linux tar.? on windows pretty much requires additional software.

I did use ARJ and RAR to compress files onto multiple floppy discs but back then I didn't know how shareware worked. Not really a good excuse but whatever.


I agree with you.
However:
- Zip is only GOOD to compress plain text. On any code, the compress ratio is the worst between zip/rar/7zip
- Rar is "mostly" free and is very known on the internet (more than 7zip). The compression it offers is among the best for binary code. (I think 7zip is actually the best here but the time it takes to compreess/decompress is higher).

At least this is the reason I am using Rar:) and wanted to share this info.

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#7
Posted 01/25/2016 10:12 AM   
[quote="Blacksmith56"]I guess you're right, but why does the program not shut Down for the main functions after the trial has expired, like other programs ?[/quote]My guess is because they know if they let it expire most people would not buy it, therefore no one would create rar files, therefore there would be no rar files, therefore no one would download it to extract rar files, therefore there wouldn't be anyone left to buy it. The way they do it now probably doesn't get many purchases, but it's likely more than if they let it expire. [quote="helifax"](I think 7zip is actually the best here but the time it takes to compreess/decompress is higher).[/quote]Yeah, a lot of Linux packages are now distributed using xz (basically 7zip for Unix filesystems) because it performs really well for large software packages, but it is *many* orders of magnitude slower than bzip2 or gzip (any time I build a Debian package these days for my own systems I end up waiting ages, realising it's doing xz, stopping it, changing to use gzip or uncompressed, then starting over).
Blacksmith56 said:I guess you're right, but why does the program not shut Down for the main functions after the trial has expired, like other programs ?
My guess is because they know if they let it expire most people would not buy it, therefore no one would create rar files, therefore there would be no rar files, therefore no one would download it to extract rar files, therefore there wouldn't be anyone left to buy it. The way they do it now probably doesn't get many purchases, but it's likely more than if they let it expire.

helifax said:(I think 7zip is actually the best here but the time it takes to compreess/decompress is higher).
Yeah, a lot of Linux packages are now distributed using xz (basically 7zip for Unix filesystems) because it performs really well for large software packages, but it is *many* orders of magnitude slower than bzip2 or gzip (any time I build a Debian package these days for my own systems I end up waiting ages, realising it's doing xz, stopping it, changing to use gzip or uncompressed, then starting over).

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#8
Posted 01/25/2016 10:46 AM   
The only reason I compress is to compile a bunch of files because most sites I use don't allow folder uploads. I usually just want to upload a bunch of images etc therefore it functionally doesn't really matter which I use. I would use Rar and 7zip for sharing but have been surprised by the number of users without these packages. I stick to zip.
The only reason I compress is to compile a bunch of files because most sites I use don't allow folder uploads. I usually just want to upload a bunch of images etc therefore it functionally doesn't really matter which I use.

I would use Rar and 7zip for sharing but have been surprised by the number of users without these packages. I stick to zip.

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#9
Posted 01/25/2016 11:07 AM   
It's pretty rare but some fixes come as RAR so being against piracy I asked myself how many legally used RAR. It might be worth it long-term but I was rather annoyed when I read it was per machine but I might get by using it only on my main rig but I digress. Currently I don't think it's worth it even long-term.
It's pretty rare but some fixes come as RAR so being against piracy I asked myself how many legally used RAR. It might be worth it long-term but I was rather annoyed when I read it was per machine but I might get by using it only on my main rig but I digress. Currently I don't think it's worth it even long-term.

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#10
Posted 01/25/2016 11:43 AM   
[quote="andysonofbob"]The only reason I compress is to compile a bunch of files because most sites I use don't allow folder uploads. I usually just want to upload a bunch of images etc therefore it functionally doesn't really matter which I use. I would use Rar and 7zip for sharing but have been surprised by the number of users without these packages. I stick to zip.[/quote] That certainly explains why some things get zipped when they save almost zero space vs unzipped. I've always wondered WTF the whole point of it was. Now I know.
andysonofbob said:The only reason I compress is to compile a bunch of files because most sites I use don't allow folder uploads. I usually just want to upload a bunch of images etc therefore it functionally doesn't really matter which I use.

I would use Rar and 7zip for sharing but have been surprised by the number of users without these packages. I stick to zip.


That certainly explains why some things get zipped when they save almost zero space vs unzipped. I've always wondered WTF the whole point of it was. Now I know.

#11
Posted 01/25/2016 12:10 PM   
In the latest update of the WATCH_DOGS2 fix I patched all shaders from the patch.dat file that matched the known patterns (which as I posted elsewhere means I now have a generic extractor for LZ4 compressed shaders), which ended up being over 20,000 shaders totalling around 700MB in assembly form (counting shaders I didn't need to patch it was over 50,000 shaders totalling 1.4GB in binary form). That made the zip archive a little too large so I played around with the different compression options to see what was best, and remembered this thread and figured that some actual numbers might be of interest (all of these are on maximum compression settings): zip: 150MB rar (regular): 143MB rar (solid): 23MB tar.xz: 15MB (tar.anything is always solid) 7zip (solid): 7MB A solid 7zip archive gives the best compression ratio by far for our fixes (1% of the uncompressed size!), and can be extracted with either 7-zip or WinRAR - so I see no advantage to using rar format for our fixes. For small fixes zip is fine for simplicity, for large fixes use 7zip. The reason solid archives work so well is because they allow the redundancy between similar files to be used to increase the compression ratio. Since our fixes can easily include tens of thousands of very similar shaders, we are in a perfect position to make use of that. The only downside is that trying to extract a single file will take longer, but that is not an issue for us since we expect the entire archive to be extracted at once. I expect most people would use the GUI, but I use a script to package my fixes (mkrelease.sh), and this is the 7z command line I used (pretty much straight out of the examples in the manual page): [code]7z a -l -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on "${archive}.7z" "${directory}"[/code]
In the latest update of the WATCH_DOGS2 fix I patched all shaders from the patch.dat file that matched the known patterns (which as I posted elsewhere means I now have a generic extractor for LZ4 compressed shaders), which ended up being over 20,000 shaders totalling around 700MB in assembly form (counting shaders I didn't need to patch it was over 50,000 shaders totalling 1.4GB in binary form). That made the zip archive a little too large so I played around with the different compression options to see what was best, and remembered this thread and figured that some actual numbers might be of interest (all of these are on maximum compression settings):

zip: 150MB
rar (regular): 143MB
rar (solid): 23MB
tar.xz: 15MB (tar.anything is always solid)
7zip (solid): 7MB

A solid 7zip archive gives the best compression ratio by far for our fixes (1% of the uncompressed size!), and can be extracted with either 7-zip or WinRAR - so I see no advantage to using rar format for our fixes. For small fixes zip is fine for simplicity, for large fixes use 7zip.

The reason solid archives work so well is because they allow the redundancy between similar files to be used to increase the compression ratio. Since our fixes can easily include tens of thousands of very similar shaders, we are in a perfect position to make use of that. The only downside is that trying to extract a single file will take longer, but that is not an issue for us since we expect the entire archive to be extracted at once.

I expect most people would use the GUI, but I use a script to package my fixes (mkrelease.sh), and this is the 7z command line I used (pretty much straight out of the examples in the manual page):
7z a -l -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on "${archive}.7z" "${directory}"

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#12
Posted 02/02/2017 03:30 AM   
So for those who make the fixes we should use 7Zip??
So for those who make the fixes we should use 7Zip??

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#13
Posted 02/02/2017 04:05 AM   
I also use the free command line/non-GUI versions of both actually, 7za and UnRAR. I have a bat script that I drag-n-drop the archives(7z,Zip,RAR) onto and it decompresses them into folders using the filename and extension. RAR = Piracy!? ...Lol?
I also use the free command line/non-GUI versions of both actually, 7za and UnRAR. I have a bat script that I drag-n-drop the archives(7z,Zip,RAR) onto and it decompresses them into folders using the filename and extension.

RAR = Piracy!? ...Lol?
#14
Posted 02/02/2017 04:11 AM   
[quote="The_Nephilim"]So for those who make the fixes we should use 7Zip??[/quote] Probably not. As a general rule, we are targeting end-users that are not necessarily super tech-saavy. Standard Zip files are a more universal format and will cause the least end-user problems. This also plays into the support side of the equation, which is that it's not in our interest to make things that generate too many questions. We don't have a lot of spare time, and it would always be better to do more valuable things than answer questions like 7-zip vs. Rar problems. For that reason, even though the compression for 7-zip is super impressive for the WatchDogs2 fix, it would still be my preference to keep it as a Zip file. Downloading a 150MB file nowadays is not much of a burden, and it will happen rarely enough to the AWS that it would not be a bandwidth cost (unlike images). A different format will complicate the job for Paul's auto-fix-installer too. It's not a big issue either way, but unless there is a compelling reason, Zip is the best choice.
The_Nephilim said:So for those who make the fixes we should use 7Zip??

Probably not. As a general rule, we are targeting end-users that are not necessarily super tech-saavy. Standard Zip files are a more universal format and will cause the least end-user problems.

This also plays into the support side of the equation, which is that it's not in our interest to make things that generate too many questions. We don't have a lot of spare time, and it would always be better to do more valuable things than answer questions like 7-zip vs. Rar problems.


For that reason, even though the compression for 7-zip is super impressive for the WatchDogs2 fix, it would still be my preference to keep it as a Zip file.

Downloading a 150MB file nowadays is not much of a burden, and it will happen rarely enough to the AWS that it would not be a bandwidth cost (unlike images).

A different format will complicate the job for Paul's auto-fix-installer too.

It's not a big issue either way, but unless there is a compelling reason, Zip is the best choice.

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#15
Posted 02/02/2017 04:12 AM   
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