I figured out something interesting about the ghosting
Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this. While updating line by line might be better under normal circumstances, for 3D Vision it's terrible. Without the response time of the monitor being nearly instantaneous, there's no correct time to shutter each eye. If you center the shutter timing to be right when the scan line in the center of the screen is updating, then you will have ghosting on top and reverse ghosting on the bottom.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this. While updating line by line might be better under normal circumstances, for 3D Vision it's terrible. Without the response time of the monitor being nearly instantaneous, there's no correct time to shutter each eye. If you center the shutter timing to be right when the scan line in the center of the screen is updating, then you will have ghosting on top and reverse ghosting on the bottom.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
[quote name='rkuo' post='514341' date='Mar 5 2009, 07:51 PM']Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this.[/quote]
I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
[quote name='rkuo' post='514341' date='Mar 5 2009, 07:51 PM']Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this.
I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?
1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard
2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)
1x EVGA GTX480
8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)
2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)
4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)
1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro
1x BD-ROM
1x DVD-RW
1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='514344' date='Mar 5 2009, 05:57 PM']I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?[/quote]
Try the images I posted below captured from Mirror's Edge in the stereoscopic viewer.
[quote name='SpyderCanopus' post='514344' date='Mar 5 2009, 05:57 PM']I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?
Try the images I posted below captured from Mirror's Edge in the stereoscopic viewer.
I'm on the new viewsonic 120hertz lcd and I see ghosting..at least I think I do. Shadows of the image to the left and right? I thought that was corrected in game with the depth control and the convergence control. Hard to say really, since different depths/convergence in games give me a shadow, it takes some meticulous adjusting to remove it.
I'm on the new viewsonic 120hertz lcd and I see ghosting..at least I think I do. Shadows of the image to the left and right? I thought that was corrected in game with the depth control and the convergence control. Hard to say really, since different depths/convergence in games give me a shadow, it takes some meticulous adjusting to remove it.
[quote name='rkuo' post='514341' date='Mar 5 2009, 06:51 PM']Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this. While updating line by line might be better under normal circumstances, for 3D Vision it's terrible. Without the response time of the monitor being nearly instantaneous, there's no correct time to shutter each eye. If you center the shutter timing to be right when the scan line in the center of the screen is updating, then you will have ghosting on top and reverse ghosting on the bottom.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.[/quote]
Wow, that explains a lot of that's the case :) It's a bummer, but it makes some sense! I always thought it was worse in the upper parts of the screen (usually the sky area) because it's a high contrast area, like dark mountains on light (somewhat solid color) sky. Maybe a bit of both? The lower parts of the screen in a lot of games are covered in complex ground texture, which seems to do a good job of masking ghosting.
Now all game developers have to do to compensate for ghosting is go back to the dungeon crawler days of whole games taking place underground. Ugly dirt and brick textures on floor and ceiling ftw /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
[quote name='rkuo' post='514341' date='Mar 5 2009, 06:51 PM']Basically, it appears many LCD monitors still sequentially refresh lines from top to bottom. Unfortunately, the Samsung 2233RZ bundled monitor also does this. While updating line by line might be better under normal circumstances, for 3D Vision it's terrible. Without the response time of the monitor being nearly instantaneous, there's no correct time to shutter each eye. If you center the shutter timing to be right when the scan line in the center of the screen is updating, then you will have ghosting on top and reverse ghosting on the bottom.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
Wow, that explains a lot of that's the case :) It's a bummer, but it makes some sense! I always thought it was worse in the upper parts of the screen (usually the sky area) because it's a high contrast area, like dark mountains on light (somewhat solid color) sky. Maybe a bit of both? The lower parts of the screen in a lot of games are covered in complex ground texture, which seems to do a good job of masking ghosting.
Now all game developers have to do to compensate for ghosting is go back to the dungeon crawler days of whole games taking place underground. Ugly dirt and brick textures on floor and ceiling ftw /haha.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':haha:' />
I agree with you liquor-beard, but the reason I'm posting is because I've been thinking about how to fix
s3d on LCDs in general and that starts with understanding the problem. What I've come up with is an idea
that will work but it makes the display dimmer and has the old lousy 30 frame-per-second flicker. So I don't
blame nvidia if they don't do this and I can't really recommend it but it would be interesting to see it work.
Read on only if you're interested in a bad solution.
Basically it's screen-blanking. If you know about horizontally interlaced s3d and you understand line-blanking,
then you can make the connection between line-blanking and screen-blanking.
Explanation:
S3D works easily on CRTs because the phosphors go dark relatively quickly so that the image you see in your
eye is very much an after-image due to persistence of vision like a weak version of the aftereffect of someone
taking your picture with a flash. One eye is blocked and the other can see so it sees the phosphors get bright
and then the phosphors get dark hopefully before the next eye gets its view enabled. With an LCD display,
the pixels stay lit longer so that the wrong eye can see them before the sweep changes them. They need to
be darkened artificially just like line-blanking switches darkening alternating horizontal lines to simulate an
interlaced TV display. So in a four-vertical-sweep cycle, the screen would show left-eye-view, dark, right-eye-view,
then dark again. This would simulate the darkening of CRT phosphors that helps prevent ghosting. If a CRT has
bad ghosting, it could be because the phosphors stay lit for too long and get seen by the wrong eye. Light
leakage through a dark shutter is another source of ghosting too.
Unfortunately, a four-sweep-cycle at 120Hz results in 30 frames per second for each eye. The left eye would be
seeing for the first half of the four-sweep-cycle and the right eye for the other half. So it looks like for this
technique, you need a 240Hz refresh rate to get 60 FPS per eye. Don't hold your breath.
So if you have an LCD monitor that can do a 120Hz refresh rate, that doesn't necessarily translate to better s3d.
The pixels must get dark before the wrong eye sees them.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?
I honestly think you have a faulty unit because I am playing the game right now and don't experience any ghosting. The symptoms you speak of are exactly that of others using older, non-3d ready, or cheaper displays. Ghosting is not an issue with true 120hz displays. It occurs when the monitor isn't quite able to keep up.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?
1x Intel S5000Xvn Mainboard
2x Quad 2.66GHz Xeons (X5355, 8 Cores)
1x EVGA GTX480
8x 2GB FB-DIMM 667 (16GB)
2x 64GB Corsair M4 SSDs in RAID0 (System)
4x 1TB SATA2 64MB Cache Western Digital Black's in RAID0 (Storage)
1x Sound Blaster X-Fi Elite Pro
1x BD-ROM
1x DVD-RW
1x Antec High Current Pro HCP-1200 1200W Power Supply
1x Dell 30" 2560x1600 LCD
1x Samsung 22" 120hz GeForce 3D Vision Display
1x APC 1500VAC SmartUPS Battery Backup
1x Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?[/quote]
Try the images I posted below captured from Mirror's Edge in the stereoscopic viewer.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=findpost&pid=508250"]http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250[/url]
If you don't see ghosting from these screenshots, then I'll go in for an exchange.
EDIT:
Could possibly be your glasses are faulty?
Try the images I posted below captured from Mirror's Edge in the stereoscopic viewer.
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250
If you don't see ghosting from these screenshots, then I'll go in for an exchange.
[url="http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=findpost&pid=508250"]http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250[/url]
If you don't see ghosting from these screenshots, then I'll go in for an exchange.[/quote]
As for me(using Samsung CRT), clearly I can see ghosting, and is the exactly same what I'm suffered so far.
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?act=fin...&pid=508250
If you don't see ghosting from these screenshots, then I'll go in for an exchange.
As for me(using Samsung CRT), clearly I can see ghosting, and is the exactly same what I'm suffered so far.
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.[/quote]
Wow, that explains a lot of that's the case :) It's a bummer, but it makes some sense! I always thought it was worse in the upper parts of the screen (usually the sky area) because it's a high contrast area, like dark mountains on light (somewhat solid color) sky. Maybe a bit of both? The lower parts of the screen in a lot of games are covered in complex ground texture, which seems to do a good job of masking ghosting.
Now all game developers have to do to compensate for ghosting is go back to the dungeon crawler days of whole games taking place underground. Ugly dirt and brick textures on floor and ceiling ftw
This is exactly what I'm seeing in Mirror's Edge, due to the high contrast of that game, and every other game as well. Look for ghosting, look up and down with your controls, and you will see the ghosting effect largely go away, and then flip/invert.
It's really a shame, because at the center point, the ghosting effect is pretty minimal. So the monitor is clearly pretty close to handling 120Hz refresh, but only just barely. With the misalignment caused by the scan time to update each screen, ghosting is exacerbated.
Wow, that explains a lot of that's the case :) It's a bummer, but it makes some sense! I always thought it was worse in the upper parts of the screen (usually the sky area) because it's a high contrast area, like dark mountains on light (somewhat solid color) sky. Maybe a bit of both? The lower parts of the screen in a lot of games are covered in complex ground texture, which seems to do a good job of masking ghosting.
Now all game developers have to do to compensate for ghosting is go back to the dungeon crawler days of whole games taking place underground. Ugly dirt and brick textures on floor and ceiling ftw
s3d on LCDs in general and that starts with understanding the problem. What I've come up with is an idea
that will work but it makes the display dimmer and has the old lousy 30 frame-per-second flicker. So I don't
blame nvidia if they don't do this and I can't really recommend it but it would be interesting to see it work.
Read on only if you're interested in a bad solution.
Basically it's screen-blanking. If you know about horizontally interlaced s3d and you understand line-blanking,
then you can make the connection between line-blanking and screen-blanking.
Explanation:
S3D works easily on CRTs because the phosphors go dark relatively quickly so that the image you see in your
eye is very much an after-image due to persistence of vision like a weak version of the aftereffect of someone
taking your picture with a flash. One eye is blocked and the other can see so it sees the phosphors get bright
and then the phosphors get dark hopefully before the next eye gets its view enabled. With an LCD display,
the pixels stay lit longer so that the wrong eye can see them before the sweep changes them. They need to
be darkened artificially just like line-blanking switches darkening alternating horizontal lines to simulate an
interlaced TV display. So in a four-vertical-sweep cycle, the screen would show left-eye-view, dark, right-eye-view,
then dark again. This would simulate the darkening of CRT phosphors that helps prevent ghosting. If a CRT has
bad ghosting, it could be because the phosphors stay lit for too long and get seen by the wrong eye. Light
leakage through a dark shutter is another source of ghosting too.
Unfortunately, a four-sweep-cycle at 120Hz results in 30 frames per second for each eye. The left eye would be
seeing for the first half of the four-sweep-cycle and the right eye for the other half. So it looks like for this
technique, you need a 240Hz refresh rate to get 60 FPS per eye. Don't hold your breath.
So if you have an LCD monitor that can do a 120Hz refresh rate, that doesn't necessarily translate to better s3d.
The pixels must get dark before the wrong eye sees them.
That's all I have for now.
Later.
s3d on LCDs in general and that starts with understanding the problem. What I've come up with is an idea
that will work but it makes the display dimmer and has the old lousy 30 frame-per-second flicker. So I don't
blame nvidia if they don't do this and I can't really recommend it but it would be interesting to see it work.
Read on only if you're interested in a bad solution.
Basically it's screen-blanking. If you know about horizontally interlaced s3d and you understand line-blanking,
then you can make the connection between line-blanking and screen-blanking.
Explanation:
S3D works easily on CRTs because the phosphors go dark relatively quickly so that the image you see in your
eye is very much an after-image due to persistence of vision like a weak version of the aftereffect of someone
taking your picture with a flash. One eye is blocked and the other can see so it sees the phosphors get bright
and then the phosphors get dark hopefully before the next eye gets its view enabled. With an LCD display,
the pixels stay lit longer so that the wrong eye can see them before the sweep changes them. They need to
be darkened artificially just like line-blanking switches darkening alternating horizontal lines to simulate an
interlaced TV display. So in a four-vertical-sweep cycle, the screen would show left-eye-view, dark, right-eye-view,
then dark again. This would simulate the darkening of CRT phosphors that helps prevent ghosting. If a CRT has
bad ghosting, it could be because the phosphors stay lit for too long and get seen by the wrong eye. Light
leakage through a dark shutter is another source of ghosting too.
Unfortunately, a four-sweep-cycle at 120Hz results in 30 frames per second for each eye. The left eye would be
seeing for the first half of the four-sweep-cycle and the right eye for the other half. So it looks like for this
technique, you need a 240Hz refresh rate to get 60 FPS per eye. Don't hold your breath.
So if you have an LCD monitor that can do a 120Hz refresh rate, that doesn't necessarily translate to better s3d.
The pixels must get dark before the wrong eye sees them.
That's all I have for now.
Later.