In theory, yes, 1:1 pixel mapping is best. As I said, the main reason 720p looks better on my native 1080p W1070 vs my 720p native H5360BD is that the individual pixels are less visible. On the 720 H5360BD the pixels are fairly noticeable, and there's a slight screen door effect (I sit very close!). It looks better on the W1070 because that's gone.
The W1070 is known to upscale very well. I don't think all displays are made equal in that regard. Probably good upscaling introduces some level of input lag. Is that bad? Yes. Do I notice it (W1070 vs H5360BD)? No.
In theory, yes, 1:1 pixel mapping is best. As I said, the main reason 720p looks better on my native 1080p W1070 vs my 720p native H5360BD is that the individual pixels are less visible. On the 720 H5360BD the pixels are fairly noticeable, and there's a slight screen door effect (I sit very close!). It looks better on the W1070 because that's gone.
The W1070 is known to upscale very well. I don't think all displays are made equal in that regard. Probably good upscaling introduces some level of input lag. Is that bad? Yes. Do I notice it (W1070 vs H5360BD)? No.
Hm, I couldn't really get a much clearer picture with my phone, but here's another. I'm definitely not seeing any doubling effect, that would be quite obvious.
[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t31.0-8/10494334_10152435894110673_967486818654969604_o.jpg[/img]
Hm, I couldn't really get a much clearer picture with my phone, but here's another. I'm definitely not seeing any doubling effect, that would be quite obvious.
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]Hm, I couldn't really get a much clearer picture with my phone, but here's another. I'm definitely not seeing any doubling effect, that would be quite obvious.
[/quote]
Source? I'd like to take the same pic on native :)
Pirateguybrush said:Hm, I couldn't really get a much clearer picture with my phone, but here's another. I'm definitely not seeing any doubling effect, that would be quite obvious.
Source? I'd like to take the same pic on native :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
The results from one display to the next can vary due to any number of things.
Proprietary hardware/software. Scaling/interpolation algorithms that are used.
Microsoft Windows "Clear Type" can also be a variable when comparing text screen shots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/ClearType/tuner/tune.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seam_carving
An interesting read is Texas Instruments "SmoothPicture Algorithm" that was used with their "early" diamond pixel DLP chipsets. (I think these were used in the Mitsubishi HD 3DTVs and is why they only supported "Checkerboard") http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273702
An interesting read is Texas Instruments "SmoothPicture Algorithm" that was used with their "early" diamond pixel DLP chipsets. (I think these were used in the Mitsubishi HD 3DTVs and is why they only supported "Checkerboard") http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273702
Ok, here are my results from notepad using those same URLs:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wm3lpH5.jpg[/IMG]
Notice how the diagonals on the text and slashes are in a perfect step format whereas in your above picture, some parts are thicker and some narrower.
This is because when upsampling, because there isn't a 1:1 pixel ratio, a semi-shaded pixel is sampled up to either 1 pixel or 2 pixels depending on coverage. This means that either a single pixel is exactly that shade, or both pixels are exactly that shade without any taping off "antialiasing" effect.
This means that 720p to 1080p being 1:1.5, if you look closely at the edges of your text in your picture, you will notice double pixels of the same shades, or no shade at all. If it was a 2:1 ratio, every pixel would double, or 1:1 ratio it would be exactly the same.
It's difficult to explain because the text is inherently anti-aliased on Win7+ systems but I hope you can easily spot the difference, even though the quality of our pics is different :)
If it's not clear, I'll try to find a way to "un anti-alias" Win7 text, which would show pretty much exactly what the wiki article and picture refers to.
Ok, here are my results from notepad using those same URLs:
Notice how the diagonals on the text and slashes are in a perfect step format whereas in your above picture, some parts are thicker and some narrower.
This is because when upsampling, because there isn't a 1:1 pixel ratio, a semi-shaded pixel is sampled up to either 1 pixel or 2 pixels depending on coverage. This means that either a single pixel is exactly that shade, or both pixels are exactly that shade without any taping off "antialiasing" effect.
This means that 720p to 1080p being 1:1.5, if you look closely at the edges of your text in your picture, you will notice double pixels of the same shades, or no shade at all. If it was a 2:1 ratio, every pixel would double, or 1:1 ratio it would be exactly the same.
It's difficult to explain because the text is inherently anti-aliased on Win7+ systems but I hope you can easily spot the difference, even though the quality of our pics is different :)
If it's not clear, I'll try to find a way to "un anti-alias" Win7 text, which would show pretty much exactly what the wiki article and picture refers to.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]Notice how the diagonals on the text and slashes are in a perfect step format whereas in your above picture, some parts are thicker and some narrower.[/quote]
I can see this. The rest of the text looks much better in Pirate's photo I think though. It suggests that your display upscales poorly compared to the W1070, doesn't it? But also, are you using the same font?
In any case, my point earlier is that while all things being equal 1:1 pixel mapping is best, in the real world all things are not equal. The benefits of the smaller/tighter pixel structure on a 1080p display can sometimes prove more important than the problems introduced with upscaling.
EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's, they're about 20.
RAGEdemon said:Notice how the diagonals on the text and slashes are in a perfect step format whereas in your above picture, some parts are thicker and some narrower.
I can see this. The rest of the text looks much better in Pirate's photo I think though. It suggests that your display upscales poorly compared to the W1070, doesn't it? But also, are you using the same font?
In any case, my point earlier is that while all things being equal 1:1 pixel mapping is best, in the real world all things are not equal. The benefits of the smaller/tighter pixel structure on a 1080p display can sometimes prove more important than the problems introduced with upscaling.
EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's, they're about 20.
Interesting, I see the effect you're referring to now. It's not nearly as dramatic as the issues in the image you initially posted though, as the effect is pretty even across all letters. Pretty sure it's the same font, whatever notepad's default is.
Interesting, I see the effect you're referring to now. It's not nearly as dramatic as the issues in the image you initially posted though, as the effect is pretty even across all letters. Pretty sure it's the same font, whatever notepad's default is.
Airion, thanks for the reply.
Please would you elaborate on how the pixel structure comes into play to produce a superior picture quality if scaling up from a lower resolution compared to a display showing native resolution? Perhaps with a diagram/picture example.
You may be right but I can't imagine a scenario. I am eager to fill in this gap in my knowledge :)
Please would you elaborate on how the pixel structure comes into play to produce a superior picture quality if scaling up from a lower resolution compared to a display showing native resolution? Perhaps with a diagram/picture example.
You may be right but I can't imagine a scenario. I am eager to fill in this gap in my knowledge :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="Pirateguybrush"]Interesting, I see the effect you're referring to now. It's not nearly as dramatic as the issues in the image you initially posted though, as the effect is pretty even across all letters. Pretty sure it's the same font, whatever notepad's default is.[/quote]
This is because of text anti-aliasing introduced in win7+. I'll try to reproduce something without that anti-aliasing that we can both try.
Pirateguybrush said:Interesting, I see the effect you're referring to now. It's not nearly as dramatic as the issues in the image you initially posted though, as the effect is pretty even across all letters. Pretty sure it's the same font, whatever notepad's default is.
This is because of text anti-aliasing introduced in win7+. I'll try to reproduce something without that anti-aliasing that we can both try.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="Airion"]EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's, they're about 20.[/quote]
I count 12 on mine and 18 on Pirateguybrush's.
This would be exactly in line with a 1:1.5 pixel ratio i.e. 720p:1080p
Airion said:EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's, they're about 20.
I count 12 on mine and 18 on Pirateguybrush's.
This would be exactly in line with a 1:1.5 pixel ratio i.e. 720p:1080p
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"][quote="Airion"]EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not
equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's,
they're about 20.[/quote]
I count 12 on mine and 18 on Pirateguybrush's.
This would be exactly in line with a 1:1.5 pixel ratio i.e. 720p:1080p[/quote]
Ah, so we're looking at 720p on a 720p display (yours) vs 720p on a 1080p display (Pirate's)?
[quote="RAGEdemon"]Please would you elaborate on how the pixel structure comes into play to
produce a superior picture quality if scaling up from a lower resolution compared to a display
showing native resolution? Perhaps with a diagram/picture example.[/quote]
I would point to the differences between your pic and Pirate's. In yours the pixels are very clearly
defined. A bit of a screen door effect. In Pirate's, it's much more difficult to count the individual
pixels. That's a plus for picture quality, as we don't see the world in clearly defined pixels. Also, while the upscaling hurts the slashes, I feel it helps the rest of the text. For example, the "y" in "ebay" looks much smoother.
Airion said:EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not
equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's,
they're about 20.
I count 12 on mine and 18 on Pirateguybrush's.
This would be exactly in line with a 1:1.5 pixel ratio i.e. 720p:1080p
Ah, so we're looking at 720p on a 720p display (yours) vs 720p on a 1080p display (Pirate's)?
RAGEdemon said:Please would you elaborate on how the pixel structure comes into play to
produce a superior picture quality if scaling up from a lower resolution compared to a display
showing native resolution? Perhaps with a diagram/picture example.
I would point to the differences between your pic and Pirate's. In yours the pixels are very clearly
defined. A bit of a screen door effect. In Pirate's, it's much more difficult to count the individual
pixels. That's a plus for picture quality, as we don't see the world in clearly defined pixels. Also, while the upscaling hurts the slashes, I feel it helps the rest of the text. For example, the "y" in "ebay" looks much smoother.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]This is because of text anti-aliasing introduced in win7+. I'll try to reproduce something without that anti-aliasing that we can both try. [/quote]
That might be interesting from a purely academic standpoint, but does it really tell us anything if that's not a standard use case?
RAGEdemon said:This is because of text anti-aliasing introduced in win7+. I'll try to reproduce something without that anti-aliasing that we can both try.
That might be interesting from a purely academic standpoint, but does it really tell us anything if that's not a standard use case?
Airion, Granted, the screen door effect is reduced; but to me personally, the upscaling effect is worse. I suppose this is subjective as someone above stated.
The Y slope on the other hand looks better only because there is heavy blurring and distortion in that area compared to a better pic and focus on my side.
Pirateguybrush, the text example is a low hanging fruit for (easier) comparison. What really matters is how this translates to moving image quality on the screen. Textures would be affected if they were good resolution. Polygon outlines would also be affected too, but the effect would be mitigated if heavy antialiasing were to be used. Overall, it is a shimmering effect similar to one which cheap antialiasing methods incur, which often attracts the fury of gamers.
I have some other responsibilities which leave me with little free time at the moment but I will try to think of examples while I attend to them. Aliased text not in the form of an image would be great but how to attain it, I wonder.
It is a blessing that you guys don't see the negative sides. If I were to point them out, I wonder if you will hate me for not being able to unsee them like a dead pixel on a beloved monitor ;-)
Airion, Granted, the screen door effect is reduced; but to me personally, the upscaling effect is worse. I suppose this is subjective as someone above stated.
The Y slope on the other hand looks better only because there is heavy blurring and distortion in that area compared to a better pic and focus on my side.
Pirateguybrush, the text example is a low hanging fruit for (easier) comparison. What really matters is how this translates to moving image quality on the screen. Textures would be affected if they were good resolution. Polygon outlines would also be affected too, but the effect would be mitigated if heavy antialiasing were to be used. Overall, it is a shimmering effect similar to one which cheap antialiasing methods incur, which often attracts the fury of gamers.
I have some other responsibilities which leave me with little free time at the moment but I will try to think of examples while I attend to them. Aliased text not in the form of an image would be great but how to attain it, I wonder.
It is a blessing that you guys don't see the negative sides. If I were to point them out, I wonder if you will hate me for not being able to unsee them like a dead pixel on a beloved monitor ;-)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
[quote="RAGEdemon"]Airion, Granted, the screen door effect is reduced; but to me personally, the upscaling effect is worse. I suppose this is subjective as someone above stated.
The Y slop on the other hand looks better only because there is heavy blurring and distortion in that area compared to a better pic and focus on my side.
It is a blessing that you guys don't see the negative sides. If I were to point them out, I wonder if you will hate me for not being able to unsee them like a dead pixel on a beloved monitor ;-)
[/quote]
I too noticed the upscale effect once you pointed it out. But i gotta say i still struggle to see it if im not paying really close attention to it. Its really that minimal imo. Technically w1070 is inferior, but in reality, they look nearly identical to me at 720p resolution and i slightly prefer w1070 due to no screen door effect. I have 20/20 vision.
And no, you didnt ruin 720p gaming on w1070 for me, at least for now. Im sure to give you some angry feedback via private message if i ever go there :D
RAGEdemon said:Airion, Granted, the screen door effect is reduced; but to me personally, the upscaling effect is worse. I suppose this is subjective as someone above stated.
The Y slop on the other hand looks better only because there is heavy blurring and distortion in that area compared to a better pic and focus on my side.
It is a blessing that you guys don't see the negative sides. If I were to point them out, I wonder if you will hate me for not being able to unsee them like a dead pixel on a beloved monitor ;-)
I too noticed the upscale effect once you pointed it out. But i gotta say i still struggle to see it if im not paying really close attention to it. Its really that minimal imo. Technically w1070 is inferior, but in reality, they look nearly identical to me at 720p resolution and i slightly prefer w1070 due to no screen door effect. I have 20/20 vision.
And no, you didnt ruin 720p gaming on w1070 for me, at least for now. Im sure to give you some angry feedback via private message if i ever go there :D
The W1070 is known to upscale very well. I don't think all displays are made equal in that regard. Probably good upscaling introduces some level of input lag. Is that bad? Yes. Do I notice it (W1070 vs H5360BD)? No.
Source? I'd like to take the same pic on native :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Proprietary hardware/software. Scaling/interpolation algorithms that are used.
Microsoft Windows "Clear Type" can also be a variable when comparing text screen shots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/ClearType/tuner/tune.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seam_carving
An interesting read is Texas Instruments "SmoothPicture Algorithm" that was used with their "early" diamond pixel DLP chipsets. (I think these were used in the Mitsubishi HD 3DTVs and is why they only supported "Checkerboard") http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273702
Notice how the diagonals on the text and slashes are in a perfect step format whereas in your above picture, some parts are thicker and some narrower.
This is because when upsampling, because there isn't a 1:1 pixel ratio, a semi-shaded pixel is sampled up to either 1 pixel or 2 pixels depending on coverage. This means that either a single pixel is exactly that shade, or both pixels are exactly that shade without any taping off "antialiasing" effect.
This means that 720p to 1080p being 1:1.5, if you look closely at the edges of your text in your picture, you will notice double pixels of the same shades, or no shade at all. If it was a 2:1 ratio, every pixel would double, or 1:1 ratio it would be exactly the same.
It's difficult to explain because the text is inherently anti-aliased on Win7+ systems but I hope you can easily spot the difference, even though the quality of our pics is different :)
If it's not clear, I'll try to find a way to "un anti-alias" Win7 text, which would show pretty much exactly what the wiki article and picture refers to.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I can see this. The rest of the text looks much better in Pirate's photo I think though. It suggests that your display upscales poorly compared to the W1070, doesn't it? But also, are you using the same font?
In any case, my point earlier is that while all things being equal 1:1 pixel mapping is best, in the real world all things are not equal. The benefits of the smaller/tighter pixel structure on a 1080p display can sometimes prove more important than the problems introduced with upscaling.
EDIT: As far as I can tell, counting pixels suggests all in not equal here. In RAGEdemon's photo, I see the slashes are about 12 pixels vertical. In Pirate's, they're about 20.
Please would you elaborate on how the pixel structure comes into play to produce a superior picture quality if scaling up from a lower resolution compared to a display showing native resolution? Perhaps with a diagram/picture example.
You may be right but I can't imagine a scenario. I am eager to fill in this gap in my knowledge :)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
This is because of text anti-aliasing introduced in win7+. I'll try to reproduce something without that anti-aliasing that we can both try.
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I count 12 on mine and 18 on Pirateguybrush's.
This would be exactly in line with a 1:1.5 pixel ratio i.e. 720p:1080p
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
Ah, so we're looking at 720p on a 720p display (yours) vs 720p on a 1080p display (Pirate's)?
I would point to the differences between your pic and Pirate's. In yours the pixels are very clearly
defined. A bit of a screen door effect. In Pirate's, it's much more difficult to count the individual
pixels. That's a plus for picture quality, as we don't see the world in clearly defined pixels. Also, while the upscaling hurts the slashes, I feel it helps the rest of the text. For example, the "y" in "ebay" looks much smoother.
That might be interesting from a purely academic standpoint, but does it really tell us anything if that's not a standard use case?
The Y slope on the other hand looks better only because there is heavy blurring and distortion in that area compared to a better pic and focus on my side.
Pirateguybrush, the text example is a low hanging fruit for (easier) comparison. What really matters is how this translates to moving image quality on the screen. Textures would be affected if they were good resolution. Polygon outlines would also be affected too, but the effect would be mitigated if heavy antialiasing were to be used. Overall, it is a shimmering effect similar to one which cheap antialiasing methods incur, which often attracts the fury of gamers.
I have some other responsibilities which leave me with little free time at the moment but I will try to think of examples while I attend to them. Aliased text not in the form of an image would be great but how to attain it, I wonder.
It is a blessing that you guys don't see the negative sides. If I were to point them out, I wonder if you will hate me for not being able to unsee them like a dead pixel on a beloved monitor ;-)
Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.
I too noticed the upscale effect once you pointed it out. But i gotta say i still struggle to see it if im not paying really close attention to it. Its really that minimal imo. Technically w1070 is inferior, but in reality, they look nearly identical to me at 720p resolution and i slightly prefer w1070 due to no screen door effect. I have 20/20 vision.
And no, you didnt ruin 720p gaming on w1070 for me, at least for now. Im sure to give you some angry feedback via private message if i ever go there :D