HDMI / DVI - Hz - understanding
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Hi, I hope this question was not asked many times, didn´t find the correct topic:

With HDMI 1.4 cables I get only 60 Hz, in full HD 1080p only 24 Hz. I have the Acer 27″ 3D Monitor with 120 Hz. I don´t understand why you need a 120 Hz monitor when 24 Hz is enough to show 3D – or is this a matter of internal “upscaling” of the monitor? Didn´t find any explanations regarding this. Is there any difference between the HDMI 24 Hz 1080p 3D vs DVI 120 Hz 180p 3D? Except problems with gaming and Vsync – more about movies. So far I didn´t see any difference ...

Many thanks for your answers!

Greetings,
Ryan
Hi, I hope this question was not asked many times, didn´t find the correct topic:



With HDMI 1.4 cables I get only 60 Hz, in full HD 1080p only 24 Hz. I have the Acer 27″ 3D Monitor with 120 Hz. I don´t understand why you need a 120 Hz monitor when 24 Hz is enough to show 3D – or is this a matter of internal “upscaling” of the monitor? Didn´t find any explanations regarding this. Is there any difference between the HDMI 24 Hz 1080p 3D vs DVI 120 Hz 180p 3D? Except problems with gaming and Vsync – more about movies. So far I didn´t see any difference ...



Many thanks for your answers!



Greetings,

Ryan

#1
Posted 06/09/2011 08:07 AM   
The idea with 120Hz is that each eye sees 60 frames per second.

Left eye sees every first frame, right eye sees every second frame. Seeing any less would severely degrade gaming.
[quote name='-{RaptoR}-' date='09 June 2011 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1307610358' post='1249556']
The idea with 120Hz is that each eye sees 60 frames per second.

Left eye sees every first frame, right eye sees every second frame. Seeing any less would severely degrade gaming.
[/quote]Indeed this is pretty much it.

Just to go a bit more in depth. When you’re talking about movies, TV shows & games and you reference them as playing at 24Hz, you are in fact only stating they play or run at 24 frame per second (24 individual pictures every second) this is the bare minimum for a human brain to perceive a motion as fluid.

But 24 frames per second or 24Hz is however not enough for the human eye to not see a picture flashing/flickering. This is why American TV’s run at 50Hz and us British people’s TV’s run at 60Hz. So while the source material is run at 24Hz to perceive a fluid motion you need to have your TV flash or renew its frame at least 50 or 60 times a second for you to see a solid picture.

This is why Nvidia 3D vision runs from 100Hz to 120Hz, as some people can notice a flicker with 50Hz you are best to have any new video technology running at, at least 60Hz total to both eyes or 60Hz to any one individual eye.

So to summarise, if your monitor actually ran at 24Hz you would just see a flickering mess which more resembled a strobe light rather than a solid moving picture.
[quote name='-{RaptoR}-' date='09 June 2011 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1307610358' post='1249556']

The idea with 120Hz is that each eye sees 60 frames per second.



Left eye sees every first frame, right eye sees every second frame. Seeing any less would severely degrade gaming.

Indeed this is pretty much it.



Just to go a bit more in depth. When you’re talking about movies, TV shows & games and you reference them as playing at 24Hz, you are in fact only stating they play or run at 24 frame per second (24 individual pictures every second) this is the bare minimum for a human brain to perceive a motion as fluid.



But 24 frames per second or 24Hz is however not enough for the human eye to not see a picture flashing/flickering. This is why American TV’s run at 50Hz and us British people’s TV’s run at 60Hz. So while the source material is run at 24Hz to perceive a fluid motion you need to have your TV flash or renew its frame at least 50 or 60 times a second for you to see a solid picture.



This is why Nvidia 3D vision runs from 100Hz to 120Hz, as some people can notice a flicker with 50Hz you are best to have any new video technology running at, at least 60Hz total to both eyes or 60Hz to any one individual eye.



So to summarise, if your monitor actually ran at 24Hz you would just see a flickering mess which more resembled a strobe light rather than a solid moving picture.

#3
Posted 06/09/2011 10:23 AM   
hmmm, I am in the US and my TV is 60 hz...and it has been like that for ages.
hmmm, I am in the US and my TV is 60 hz...and it has been like that for ages.

#4
Posted 06/09/2011 11:53 AM   
Beg my pardon, it's the other way Round the states had 60Hz while Britain had PAL 50 before hand. I got mixed up as we had 50Hz but a higher resolution and while you had 60Hz and a lower resolution.

My Point still stands though /teehee.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':teehee:' />

Oh and in HD everywhere gets 60Hz
Beg my pardon, it's the other way Round the states had 60Hz while Britain had PAL 50 before hand. I got mixed up as we had 50Hz but a higher resolution and while you had 60Hz and a lower resolution.



My Point still stands though /teehee.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':teehee:' />



Oh and in HD everywhere gets 60Hz

#5
Posted 06/09/2011 12:58 PM   
Hi guys,

many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)

But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.

Thanks again for your responses.

Greetings,
Ryan
Hi guys,



many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)



But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.



Thanks again for your responses.



Greetings,

Ryan

#6
Posted 06/09/2011 01:47 PM   
[quote name='Cafuddled' date='09 June 2011 - 06:58 AM' timestamp='1307624298' post='1249615']
Beg my pardon, it's the other way Round the states had 60Hz while Britain had PAL 50 before hand. I got mixed up as we had 50Hz but a higher resolution and while you had 60Hz and a lower resolution.

My Point still stands though /teehee.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':teehee:' />

Oh and in HD everywhere gets 60Hz
[/quote]


no problem just wanted to point it out /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />
[quote name='Cafuddled' date='09 June 2011 - 06:58 AM' timestamp='1307624298' post='1249615']

Beg my pardon, it's the other way Round the states had 60Hz while Britain had PAL 50 before hand. I got mixed up as we had 50Hz but a higher resolution and while you had 60Hz and a lower resolution.



My Point still stands though /teehee.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':teehee:' />



Oh and in HD everywhere gets 60Hz







no problem just wanted to point it out /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />

#7
Posted 06/09/2011 02:19 PM   
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1307627228' post='1249637']
Hi guys,

many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)

But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.

Thanks again for your responses.

Greetings,
Ryan
[/quote]
Can honestly say I have never taken notice or had any issues with 3D Vision Player to make me notice any output Hz of the actual content you are playing. If it's a movie you are playing then like I said before, the movie it's self will only have 24 frames per second (24Hz). But your monitor will be running at 100 - 120Hz in stereoscopic 3D mode (thats 50 - 60Hz per eye) no matter what the content you're playing is running at.

One mistake to make is to think that the frame rate your content is running at actually effects the actual frames your monitor is displaying, it does not. If your monitor is set to 120Hz it will run at 120Hz no matter what your watching or doing with it.


[quote name='Genesis1' date='09 June 2011 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1307629163' post='1249650']
no problem just wanted to point it out /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />
[/quote]
Need to stop underestimating the yanks /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1307627228' post='1249637']

Hi guys,



many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)



But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.



Thanks again for your responses.



Greetings,

Ryan



Can honestly say I have never taken notice or had any issues with 3D Vision Player to make me notice any output Hz of the actual content you are playing. If it's a movie you are playing then like I said before, the movie it's self will only have 24 frames per second (24Hz). But your monitor will be running at 100 - 120Hz in stereoscopic 3D mode (thats 50 - 60Hz per eye) no matter what the content you're playing is running at.



One mistake to make is to think that the frame rate your content is running at actually effects the actual frames your monitor is displaying, it does not. If your monitor is set to 120Hz it will run at 120Hz no matter what your watching or doing with it.





[quote name='Genesis1' date='09 June 2011 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1307629163' post='1249650']

no problem just wanted to point it out /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />



Need to stop underestimating the yanks /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />

#8
Posted 06/09/2011 02:57 PM   
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1307627228' post='1249637']
Hi guys,

many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)

But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.

Thanks again for your responses.

Greetings,
Ryan
[/quote]

The HDMI 3D formats take both Left and Right frames together and the TV shows them at whatever rate it wants internally usually 120Hz+ depending on the technology. i.e. you see alternating frames of the first image pair many times before you see the next image pair.
3D monitors take a pure 120Hz input image, and just show what the card sends.

Where having a 120Hz input signal helps is in the smoothness of movement in games, the monitor can present unique images every 60th of a second @1080p the TV can't.
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 06:47 AM' timestamp='1307627228' post='1249637']

Hi guys,



many thanks for your fast and good replies! :-)



But this is why I´m confused, with HDMI I can set a max. of 24 Hz for the 3D Vision Video Player, otherwise I get an error message to reduce the resolution, or go down to 24 Hz. When I watch then a movie, did it with two yesterday, then it plays without any flickering. This confuses me, when it rans with 24 Hz, why couldn´t I use my other TFT with 60 Hz? Is it somehow internally upscaled in the 3D monitor to be flickerfree? So far it rans good, I just want to understant it. In general it is clear to me how 3D works.



Thanks again for your responses.



Greetings,

Ryan





The HDMI 3D formats take both Left and Right frames together and the TV shows them at whatever rate it wants internally usually 120Hz+ depending on the technology. i.e. you see alternating frames of the first image pair many times before you see the next image pair.

3D monitors take a pure 120Hz input image, and just show what the card sends.



Where having a 120Hz input signal helps is in the smoothness of movement in games, the monitor can present unique images every 60th of a second @1080p the TV can't.
#9
Posted 06/09/2011 03:37 PM   
Like ERP said, the only difference between Dual Link DVI and HDMI 1.4 is the delivery method of the 3D information. Dual Link DVI allows the GPU to process the 3D image in a sequence that means the display device does not need to do any processing of the 3D effect what so ever. Where as HDMI 1.4 requires the display device to process what has been received, hence more of a need to have your 3D glasses syncing device on the monitor it's self rather than from the PC.
Like ERP said, the only difference between Dual Link DVI and HDMI 1.4 is the delivery method of the 3D information. Dual Link DVI allows the GPU to process the 3D image in a sequence that means the display device does not need to do any processing of the 3D effect what so ever. Where as HDMI 1.4 requires the display device to process what has been received, hence more of a need to have your 3D glasses syncing device on the monitor it's self rather than from the PC.

#10
Posted 06/09/2011 04:04 PM   
Need to stop underestimating the yanks /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />
[/quote]

especially when it is a Belgian guy living in the US /clap.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clap:' />
Need to stop underestimating the yanks /laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />





especially when it is a Belgian guy living in the US /clap.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clap:' />

#11
Posted 06/09/2011 04:28 PM   
[quote name='Genesis1' date='09 June 2011 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1307636889' post='1249703']especially when it is a Belgian guy living in the US /clap.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clap:' />
[/quote]
Ha ha, I retract that comment then /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />
[quote name='Genesis1' date='09 June 2011 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1307636889' post='1249703']especially when it is a Belgian guy living in the US /clap.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':clap:' />



Ha ha, I retract that comment then /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':tongue:' />

#12
Posted 06/09/2011 04:36 PM   
Hi,

Really a great forum here, thanks again, I think I finally got it. So the Windows resolution is set to 24 Hz but the monitor is internally producing somehow the 3D capability. For this reason a real 3D screen is needed.

Ok, so far I think the thread can be marked as solved :)

Greetings,
Ryan
Hi,



Really a great forum here, thanks again, I think I finally got it. So the Windows resolution is set to 24 Hz but the monitor is internally producing somehow the 3D capability. For this reason a real 3D screen is needed.



Ok, so far I think the thread can be marked as solved :)



Greetings,

Ryan

#13
Posted 06/09/2011 04:49 PM   
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1307638168' post='1249707']
Hi,

Really a great forum here, thanks again, I think I finally got it. So the Windows resolution is set to 24 Hz but the monitor is internally producing somehow the 3D capability. For this reason a real 3D screen is needed.

Ok, so far I think the thread can be marked as solved :)

Greetings,
Ryan
[/quote]

Well not quite, Windows is set to match the frequency (Hz) of your monitor. So if you have a 120Hz monitor you will want to set windows to run at 120Hz as this sets the maximum frequency windows can draw at.

There are two things here there are the frames that are actually drawn by windows, the games or the movies (Frames Per Second) and then there is the frequency at which your monitor runs at, lets use 120Hz (120 frames per second constant) for this example.

So your monitor is flashing frames at you at a speed of 120 frames ever single second. But windows has nothing moving on it, your mouse is still, you have no moving images or system graphs moving on your screen, just a perfectly still screen. What windows is doing here is repeating the same drawn screen over and over again to your monitor. So your monitor flashes that exact same picture at you at a rate of 120 of those pictures every single second.

But what happens when you decide to play a 24 frames per second (24Hz) movie? Well the movie is sending 24 individual pictures every second to windows and windows is then resending those 24 frames every second to your monitor which is constantly running at 120 frames every second.

At this point your movie is sending only one fifth of the frames that your monitor is displaying. So for every single frame of your movie your monitor is displaying five frames in the same amount of time. And what happens next is pretty simple your monitor simply redraws the same frame of the movie over and over and over again (5 times in this example) until the movie (or windows) sends over the next frame in the sequence.
[quote name='Ryanthussar' date='09 June 2011 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1307638168' post='1249707']

Hi,



Really a great forum here, thanks again, I think I finally got it. So the Windows resolution is set to 24 Hz but the monitor is internally producing somehow the 3D capability. For this reason a real 3D screen is needed.



Ok, so far I think the thread can be marked as solved :)



Greetings,

Ryan





Well not quite, Windows is set to match the frequency (Hz) of your monitor. So if you have a 120Hz monitor you will want to set windows to run at 120Hz as this sets the maximum frequency windows can draw at.



There are two things here there are the frames that are actually drawn by windows, the games or the movies (Frames Per Second) and then there is the frequency at which your monitor runs at, lets use 120Hz (120 frames per second constant) for this example.



So your monitor is flashing frames at you at a speed of 120 frames ever single second. But windows has nothing moving on it, your mouse is still, you have no moving images or system graphs moving on your screen, just a perfectly still screen. What windows is doing here is repeating the same drawn screen over and over again to your monitor. So your monitor flashes that exact same picture at you at a rate of 120 of those pictures every single second.



But what happens when you decide to play a 24 frames per second (24Hz) movie? Well the movie is sending 24 individual pictures every second to windows and windows is then resending those 24 frames every second to your monitor which is constantly running at 120 frames every second.



At this point your movie is sending only one fifth of the frames that your monitor is displaying. So for every single frame of your movie your monitor is displaying five frames in the same amount of time. And what happens next is pretty simple your monitor simply redraws the same frame of the movie over and over and over again (5 times in this example) until the movie (or windows) sends over the next frame in the sequence.

#14
Posted 06/10/2011 11:45 AM   
Hi :-)

but HDMI doesn´t except more than 60 Hz for the Desktop settings, this is where the confusion has started ... because I expected how can this handle the 3D content and why can´t I use then a non 3D capable screen instead if I´m using 24 Hz anyway ...

Greetings,
Ryan
Hi :-)



but HDMI doesn´t except more than 60 Hz for the Desktop settings, this is where the confusion has started ... because I expected how can this handle the 3D content and why can´t I use then a non 3D capable screen instead if I´m using 24 Hz anyway ...



Greetings,

Ryan

#15
Posted 06/10/2011 05:08 PM   
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