3D Vision Supports Samsung LED C8000? For 3D Gaming and 3D Bluray.
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[quote name='roller11' date='08 December 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1291740460' post='1157371']
Totally agree, 1280x720 looks 'muddy' due to trying to fit a 1280x720 image onto a 1920x1080 screen. Like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It sorta works but image is not crisp, not detailed. OTOH, 1280x720 on a 1280x720 panel would look pretty good.
The 55c8000 supports checkerboard mode 3D, which is better than page flipping which is what you are doing (1920x1080@30 frames per eye). Do you see this as a choice on the samsung menu? I'm asking cause I want to get this TV because I want to game in checkerboard.
[/quote]


Yes mate don't worry about it
all of samsung 46c and 55c series support checkerboard mode and frame packing mode
i am using it now :)
[quote name='roller11' date='08 December 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1291740460' post='1157371']

Totally agree, 1280x720 looks 'muddy' due to trying to fit a 1280x720 image onto a 1920x1080 screen. Like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It sorta works but image is not crisp, not detailed. OTOH, 1280x720 on a 1280x720 panel would look pretty good.

The 55c8000 supports checkerboard mode 3D, which is better than page flipping which is what you are doing (1920x1080@30 frames per eye). Do you see this as a choice on the samsung menu? I'm asking cause I want to get this TV because I want to game in checkerboard.







Yes mate don't worry about it

all of samsung 46c and 55c series support checkerboard mode and frame packing mode

i am using it now :)

i7 8700K @4.9
GTX1080Ti
Asrock Z370 Gamming K6
Windows10 64bit
LG OLED UHD 3dtv 55E6K

#16
Posted 12/07/2010 11:40 PM   
[quote name='roller11' date='06 December 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1291685524' post='1157073']
3DTV Play is worse than 3D Vision for gaming. For everything else 3D, they are the same. But it doesn't matter because you have no choice, all Samsung 3D Ready HDTVs, like the 55c8000, work ONLY with 3DTV Play. Yes, absolutely. I've used both extensively, so I can assure you there is a BIG difference when it comes to gaming. Here's what people are forgetting about: 3DTV Play has an inherent incompatibility flaw. It is designed strictly for displays that are 1920x1080, yet ironically, they must do 1280x720 resolution. That means you will always be gaming at the wrong resolution. Whenever you downres your display to a non-native res, you introduce errors, that's a mathematical certainty. If you set the desktop res on your 1920x1080 monitor to 1280x720, it looks like crap. That's due to the downresing. So you always want to be at native res whether it's desktop, gaming, blu rays or whatever you're doing. For blu rays and videos in 3D, it's fine because you do full 1920x1080 res at full framerate. It's only games that are affected by the low bandwidth HDMI connection. The worst thing about this situation is that it won't be fixed in the future. That's because these are TV sets, not gaming/computer displays so the manufactures have no reason to upgarde the HDMI 1.4 connection to dual link DVI. Sadly, there is no fully implemented 3D gaming, it doesn't exist.
Fully implemented =
full sized display (50" or more)
full resolution 1920x1080
full framerate 60 frames per eye per second
The fix is for either monitor vendors to upsize monitors to 50" +, or TV vendors to upgrade the inputs to dual link DVI like the monitors have now. I can't see either of those things happening.
3DTV Play for 3D gaming is a good idea, but the support hardware to fully exploit it doesn't exist. Since this is a hardware limitation, DDD and iz3D have the same restrictions, no fullres/full framerate 3D gaming.
[/quote]

Thanks, i think i understood everything.

>[color="#000080"]So we can say that [b]there is no difference[/b] between "Nvidia 3D vision" and "Nvidia 3DTV" in these scenarios:

- Watching a 3D Bluray (Because 3D Monitors and 3D Televisions both supports 1920x1080@24Hz)
- Playing a Game at 720p (Because both things supports 1280x720 with 3D /// and both will adapt 720p in 1080 pixels).


>The only difference between "3D Vision" and "3DTV" will appear when you choose to play a game with 1920x1080 because, in this case only the 3D monitors supports this, right? [/color]

And for 1080p real 3D gaming you also need a lot of future hardware because you need to render 2 images at the same time each one with 1920x1080@60Hz? For example if we suppose that a 3D version of Crysis is launched to the market..to play it You need hardware able to at least play "2D Crysis (real crysis version)" at 1920x1080@120Hz/120 fps?

Correct me if im wrong.
[quote name='roller11' date='06 December 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1291685524' post='1157073']

3DTV Play is worse than 3D Vision for gaming. For everything else 3D, they are the same. But it doesn't matter because you have no choice, all Samsung 3D Ready HDTVs, like the 55c8000, work ONLY with 3DTV Play. Yes, absolutely. I've used both extensively, so I can assure you there is a BIG difference when it comes to gaming. Here's what people are forgetting about: 3DTV Play has an inherent incompatibility flaw. It is designed strictly for displays that are 1920x1080, yet ironically, they must do 1280x720 resolution. That means you will always be gaming at the wrong resolution. Whenever you downres your display to a non-native res, you introduce errors, that's a mathematical certainty. If you set the desktop res on your 1920x1080 monitor to 1280x720, it looks like crap. That's due to the downresing. So you always want to be at native res whether it's desktop, gaming, blu rays or whatever you're doing. For blu rays and videos in 3D, it's fine because you do full 1920x1080 res at full framerate. It's only games that are affected by the low bandwidth HDMI connection. The worst thing about this situation is that it won't be fixed in the future. That's because these are TV sets, not gaming/computer displays so the manufactures have no reason to upgarde the HDMI 1.4 connection to dual link DVI. Sadly, there is no fully implemented 3D gaming, it doesn't exist.

Fully implemented =

full sized display (50" or more)

full resolution 1920x1080

full framerate 60 frames per eye per second

The fix is for either monitor vendors to upsize monitors to 50" +, or TV vendors to upgrade the inputs to dual link DVI like the monitors have now. I can't see either of those things happening.

3DTV Play for 3D gaming is a good idea, but the support hardware to fully exploit it doesn't exist. Since this is a hardware limitation, DDD and iz3D have the same restrictions, no fullres/full framerate 3D gaming.





Thanks, i think i understood everything.



>So we can say that there is no difference between "Nvidia 3D vision" and "Nvidia 3DTV" in these scenarios:



- Watching a 3D Bluray (Because 3D Monitors and 3D Televisions both supports 1920x1080@24Hz)

- Playing a Game at 720p (Because both things supports 1280x720 with 3D /// and both will adapt 720p in 1080 pixels).





>The only difference between "3D Vision" and "3DTV" will appear when you choose to play a game with 1920x1080 because, in this case only the 3D monitors supports this, right?



And for 1080p real 3D gaming you also need a lot of future hardware because you need to render 2 images at the same time each one with 1920x1080@60Hz? For example if we suppose that a 3D version of Crysis is launched to the market..to play it You need hardware able to at least play "2D Crysis (real crysis version)" at 1920x1080@120Hz/120 fps?



Correct me if im wrong.

#17
Posted 12/08/2010 07:48 PM   
[quote name='thesebastian' date='08 December 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1291837706' post='1158033']
Thanks, i think i understood everything.

>[color="#000080"]So we can say that [b]there is no difference[/b] between "Nvidia 3D vision" and "Nvidia 3DTV" in these scenarios:

- Watching a 3D Bluray (Because 3D Monitors and 3D Televisions both supports 1920x1080@24Hz)[/quote]Correct.
[quote]- Playing a Game at 720p (Because both things supports 1280x720 with 3D /// and both will adapt 720p in 1080 pixels).[/quote]True, but misleading. They would be the same in that they would look equally bad. That is, downresed image on a monitor would suffer just as would downresed image on a HDTV. But that scenario is misleading because one would never choose to play a game at 1280x720 on a monitor. You would play it at 1920x1080. But you don't have that choice with 3DTV Play, you are forced to play at downresed 1280x720.
[quote]>The only difference between "3D Vision" and "3DTV" will appear when you choose to play a game with 1920x1080 because, in this case only the 3D monitors supports this, right? [/quote]Correct.

[quote]And for 1080p real 3D gaming you also need a lot of future hardware because you need to render 2 images at the same time each one with 1920x1080@60Hz? For example if we suppose that a 3D version of Crysis is launched to the market..to play it You need hardware able to at least play "2D Crysis (real crysis version)" at 1920x1080@120Hz/120 fps?[/quote]Yes, you've got the right idea. But I would change your wording "future hardware" to " hardware that does not exist", because theoretically, such hardware won't exist in the future. To understand this, look at this situation from the TV designers viewpoint. To them, there is no problem because nobody would ever use a HDTV as a computer display. The current low bandwidth HDMI 1.4 connection supports everything, including 3D, that the HDTV will ever be used for....blu ray 3D, broadcast 3D programs, etc. So they have no reason to upgrade to a higher bandwidth connection.
[quote name='thesebastian' date='08 December 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1291837706' post='1158033']

Thanks, i think i understood everything.



>[color="#000080"]So we can say that there is no difference between "Nvidia 3D vision" and "Nvidia 3DTV" in these scenarios:



- Watching a 3D Bluray (Because 3D Monitors and 3D Televisions both supports 1920x1080@24Hz)Correct.

- Playing a Game at 720p (Because both things supports 1280x720 with 3D /// and both will adapt 720p in 1080 pixels).
True, but misleading. They would be the same in that they would look equally bad. That is, downresed image on a monitor would suffer just as would downresed image on a HDTV. But that scenario is misleading because one would never choose to play a game at 1280x720 on a monitor. You would play it at 1920x1080. But you don't have that choice with 3DTV Play, you are forced to play at downresed 1280x720.

>The only difference between "3D Vision" and "3DTV" will appear when you choose to play a game with 1920x1080 because, in this case only the 3D monitors supports this, right?
Correct.



And for 1080p real 3D gaming you also need a lot of future hardware because you need to render 2 images at the same time each one with 1920x1080@60Hz? For example if we suppose that a 3D version of Crysis is launched to the market..to play it You need hardware able to at least play "2D Crysis (real crysis version)" at 1920x1080@120Hz/120 fps?
Yes, you've got the right idea. But I would change your wording "future hardware" to " hardware that does not exist", because theoretically, such hardware won't exist in the future. To understand this, look at this situation from the TV designers viewpoint. To them, there is no problem because nobody would ever use a HDTV as a computer display. The current low bandwidth HDMI 1.4 connection supports everything, including 3D, that the HDTV will ever be used for....blu ray 3D, broadcast 3D programs, etc. So they have no reason to upgrade to a higher bandwidth connection.

#18
Posted 12/08/2010 08:47 PM   
[quote name='davin8r' date='05 December 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1291595158' post='1156434']
Sebastion,

I'm getting the same TV (Sammy UN55C8000, should arrive this week) and yes, it is compatible with Nvidia 3D.

However, Nvidia is late in releasing the $40 stand-alone 3DTV software (no new release date announced as yet).

So in the mean time, our only option for 3D is to buy the full Nvidia 3D Vision kit, which is a huge waste of money since we don't need the Nvidia glasses or emitter and will still need to buy the Samsung 3D glasses separately.
[/quote]

One question, "120Hz or more TVs" but without 3D Ready, are able to play Bluray 3D? Like for example with Nvidia Glasses and IR? Or they can't mainly because they don't have HDMI 1.4?

[quote name='roller11' date='08 December 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1291841237' post='1158067']
Correct.
True, but misleading. They would be the same in that they would look equally bad. That is, downresed image on a monitor would suffer just as would downresed image on a HDTV. But that scenario is misleading because one would never choose to play a game at 1280x720 on a monitor. You would play it at 1920x1080. But you don't have that choice with 3DTV Play, you are forced to play at downresed 1280x720.
Correct.

Yes, you've got the right idea. But I would change your wording "future hardware" to " hardware that does not exist", because theoretically, such hardware won't exist in the future. To understand this, look at this situation from the TV designers viewpoint. To them, there is no problem because nobody would ever use a HDTV as a computer display. The current low bandwidth HDMI 1.4 connection supports everything, including 3D, that the HDTV will ever be used for....blu ray 3D, broadcast 3D programs, etc. So they have no reason to upgrade to a higher bandwidth connection.
[/quote]

I see, got it, thanks a lot!

Well so then after reading this, i think i'll wait for this "Nvidia 3DTV software" to be released, and maybe buy "Xpand Glasses" for Blurays and play 720p games in 3D, 1080p games in 2D using the TV. BTW in the living room (where i have the TV) I'll only play "HTPC" joystick games Like "PES 2011" etc so there is no need to get 3D really there for gaming.
In a future for my homeroom i think i'll change my current LCD monitor for a 3D monitor, but not yet, they are expensive at the moment and a little new for me.

Ahh, what about the 30 FPS capped PC games? Like por example..."Transformers latest game" "Star Wars force unleashed II" etc.."Supposing that they are really 3D Games" these games capped at 30FPS will be able to work in TV's with 1080p in 3D ? or they will works only with 720p like the rest of games?
[quote name='davin8r' date='05 December 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1291595158' post='1156434']

Sebastion,



I'm getting the same TV (Sammy UN55C8000, should arrive this week) and yes, it is compatible with Nvidia 3D.



However, Nvidia is late in releasing the $40 stand-alone 3DTV software (no new release date announced as yet).



So in the mean time, our only option for 3D is to buy the full Nvidia 3D Vision kit, which is a huge waste of money since we don't need the Nvidia glasses or emitter and will still need to buy the Samsung 3D glasses separately.





One question, "120Hz or more TVs" but without 3D Ready, are able to play Bluray 3D? Like for example with Nvidia Glasses and IR? Or they can't mainly because they don't have HDMI 1.4?



[quote name='roller11' date='08 December 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1291841237' post='1158067']

Correct.

True, but misleading. They would be the same in that they would look equally bad. That is, downresed image on a monitor would suffer just as would downresed image on a HDTV. But that scenario is misleading because one would never choose to play a game at 1280x720 on a monitor. You would play it at 1920x1080. But you don't have that choice with 3DTV Play, you are forced to play at downresed 1280x720.

Correct.



Yes, you've got the right idea. But I would change your wording "future hardware" to " hardware that does not exist", because theoretically, such hardware won't exist in the future. To understand this, look at this situation from the TV designers viewpoint. To them, there is no problem because nobody would ever use a HDTV as a computer display. The current low bandwidth HDMI 1.4 connection supports everything, including 3D, that the HDTV will ever be used for....blu ray 3D, broadcast 3D programs, etc. So they have no reason to upgrade to a higher bandwidth connection.





I see, got it, thanks a lot!



Well so then after reading this, i think i'll wait for this "Nvidia 3DTV software" to be released, and maybe buy "Xpand Glasses" for Blurays and play 720p games in 3D, 1080p games in 2D using the TV. BTW in the living room (where i have the TV) I'll only play "HTPC" joystick games Like "PES 2011" etc so there is no need to get 3D really there for gaming.

In a future for my homeroom i think i'll change my current LCD monitor for a 3D monitor, but not yet, they are expensive at the moment and a little new for me.



Ahh, what about the 30 FPS capped PC games? Like por example..."Transformers latest game" "Star Wars force unleashed II" etc.."Supposing that they are really 3D Games" these games capped at 30FPS will be able to work in TV's with 1080p in 3D ? or they will works only with 720p like the rest of games?

#19
Posted 12/08/2010 11:08 PM   
[quote name='thesebastian' date='08 December 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1291849713' post='1158130']

Ahh, what about the 30 FPS capped PC games? Like por example..."Transformers latest game" "Star Wars force unleashed II" etc.."Supposing that they are really 3D Games" these games capped at 30FPS will be able to work in TV's with 1080p in 3D ? or they will works only with 720p like the rest of games?[/quote]GREAT question, one I ask myself many times. Just today I called nvidia 3D games support about this. My understanding is that the reason for the res limitation is due to bandwidth of HDMI 1.4, can't push enough pixels to do 1920x1080@ 60 frames per eye. But HDMI 1.4 does have enough bandwidth to push 1920x1080@51 frames per eye, so why the 24Hz cap for 1920x1080? Why not 50Hz (50 frames per eye)? The agent I talked to said he would ask the product manager and get back to me.
Another possible cap is the horizontal rate. Even so, 720P @ 120 Hz is the same Hsync rate as 1080P @ 80Hz, so worse case we should be able to game at 40 frames per eye at 1080P since all these HDTVs can do 720P at 120 Hz.
Hopefully I will get an Email addressing this in a day or two.
[quote name='thesebastian' date='08 December 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1291849713' post='1158130']



Ahh, what about the 30 FPS capped PC games? Like por example..."Transformers latest game" "Star Wars force unleashed II" etc.."Supposing that they are really 3D Games" these games capped at 30FPS will be able to work in TV's with 1080p in 3D ? or they will works only with 720p like the rest of games?GREAT question, one I ask myself many times. Just today I called nvidia 3D games support about this. My understanding is that the reason for the res limitation is due to bandwidth of HDMI 1.4, can't push enough pixels to do 1920x1080@ 60 frames per eye. But HDMI 1.4 does have enough bandwidth to push 1920x1080@51 frames per eye, so why the 24Hz cap for 1920x1080? Why not 50Hz (50 frames per eye)? The agent I talked to said he would ask the product manager and get back to me.

Another possible cap is the horizontal rate. Even so, 720P @ 120 Hz is the same Hsync rate as 1080P @ 80Hz, so worse case we should be able to game at 40 frames per eye at 1080P since all these HDTVs can do 720P at 120 Hz.

Hopefully I will get an Email addressing this in a day or two.

#20
Posted 12/08/2010 11:58 PM   
Update:
Nvidia rep is basically skirting the issue by saying what we already know...the qualifying TVs on the nvidia website don't support 1920x1080x50 frames per eye. We know that, but why? these TVs can all do 720P at 120 Hz which is same Horizontal rate as 1080P at 80Hz. They can all do 120 Hz vertical ,so they can do 80 Hz vertical. The HDMI 1.4 spec has enough bandwidth to do 1080P at 51 frames per eye, so 1080P at 40 frames per eye is doable. So all the technology caps are 1080P at 40 frames per eye or better, so why the 1080P 24 frames per eye cap?
Whatever the reason, this will never be fixed because HDTVs works for everything except computers, an application that HDTVs companies don't recognize.
Update:

Nvidia rep is basically skirting the issue by saying what we already know...the qualifying TVs on the nvidia website don't support 1920x1080x50 frames per eye. We know that, but why? these TVs can all do 720P at 120 Hz which is same Horizontal rate as 1080P at 80Hz. They can all do 120 Hz vertical ,so they can do 80 Hz vertical. The HDMI 1.4 spec has enough bandwidth to do 1080P at 51 frames per eye, so 1080P at 40 frames per eye is doable. So all the technology caps are 1080P at 40 frames per eye or better, so why the 1080P 24 frames per eye cap?

Whatever the reason, this will never be fixed because HDTVs works for everything except computers, an application that HDTVs companies don't recognize.

#21
Posted 12/09/2010 08:42 PM   
Mm i didnt understand very well..

So there won't be a way to play 30 fps capped games at 1080p 3D with 3DTV?
Mm i didnt understand very well..



So there won't be a way to play 30 fps capped games at 1080p 3D with 3DTV?

#22
Posted 12/10/2010 03:25 AM   
[quote name='thesebastian' date='10 December 2010 - 04:25 AM' timestamp='1291951550' post='1158731']
Mm i didnt understand very well..

So there won't be a way to play 30 fps capped games at 1080p 3D with 3DTV?
[/quote]


Yeah, regardless of 50 Hz, I'd at *least* like to see 30 instead of 24. I might be able to handle playing at 30 fps, especially if frame interpolation to 240 Hz by the TV makes it smoother.
[quote name='thesebastian' date='10 December 2010 - 04:25 AM' timestamp='1291951550' post='1158731']

Mm i didnt understand very well..



So there won't be a way to play 30 fps capped games at 1080p 3D with 3DTV?







Yeah, regardless of 50 Hz, I'd at *least* like to see 30 instead of 24. I might be able to handle playing at 30 fps, especially if frame interpolation to 240 Hz by the TV makes it smoother.

#23
Posted 12/10/2010 04:16 AM   
[quote name='roller11' date='09 December 2010 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1291852705' post='1158163']
GREAT question, one I ask myself many times. Just today I called nvidia 3D games support about this. My understanding is that the reason for the res limitation is due to bandwidth of HDMI 1.4, can't push enough pixels to do 1920x1080@ 60 frames per eye. But HDMI 1.4 does have enough bandwidth to push 1920x1080@51 frames per eye, so why the 24Hz cap for 1920x1080? Why not 50Hz (50 frames per eye)? The agent I talked to said he would ask the product manager and get back to me.
Another possible cap is the horizontal rate. Even so, 720P @ 120 Hz is the same Hsync rate as 1080P @ 80Hz, so worse case we should be able to game at 40 frames per eye at 1080P since all these HDTVs can do 720P at 120 Hz.
Hopefully I will get an Email addressing this in a day or two.
[/quote]

Hi Roller, thanks for your info. Iv'e been looking into this with no luck so far. I'm currently using a pannasonic 37" full hd lcd for gaming and it works a treat! I was about to upgrade to a samsung UA46C7000 for the 3d but now cant justify it with the resolution needing to be 1280x720. Will be interesting to see what nivida say about it running at 40hz per eye.. I suppose the only other solution for big screen 3D gaming would be to use a dlp Projector with the nvidia vision kit?
[quote name='roller11' date='09 December 2010 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1291852705' post='1158163']

GREAT question, one I ask myself many times. Just today I called nvidia 3D games support about this. My understanding is that the reason for the res limitation is due to bandwidth of HDMI 1.4, can't push enough pixels to do 1920x1080@ 60 frames per eye. But HDMI 1.4 does have enough bandwidth to push 1920x1080@51 frames per eye, so why the 24Hz cap for 1920x1080? Why not 50Hz (50 frames per eye)? The agent I talked to said he would ask the product manager and get back to me.

Another possible cap is the horizontal rate. Even so, 720P @ 120 Hz is the same Hsync rate as 1080P @ 80Hz, so worse case we should be able to game at 40 frames per eye at 1080P since all these HDTVs can do 720P at 120 Hz.

Hopefully I will get an Email addressing this in a day or two.





Hi Roller, thanks for your info. Iv'e been looking into this with no luck so far. I'm currently using a pannasonic 37" full hd lcd for gaming and it works a treat! I was about to upgrade to a samsung UA46C7000 for the 3d but now cant justify it with the resolution needing to be 1280x720. Will be interesting to see what nivida say about it running at 40hz per eye.. I suppose the only other solution for big screen 3D gaming would be to use a dlp Projector with the nvidia vision kit?

#24
Posted 12/11/2010 06:33 AM   
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