Raytracing and variable rate shading with 3DVision?
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With all the talk of the 2080's coming out, their cost and possible performance, what I don't think I've seen discussed is how ray tracing itself or variable rate shading technologies may (or may not) work with 3DVision? I've seen discussion elsewhere talking about how much better fidelity ray tracing can potentially create for VR, so based on that I'm definitely hopeful that it's a stereoscopic friendly approach. Who knows, maybe even fixing games will be a thing of the past. Also, maybe somehow variable rate shading (successor to singlepass stereo) could/will be adapted to 3DVision. The skeptic in me doubts that will be the case... but the dreamer in me hopes that this is all relevant and could even lead to a refresh of and/or improved 3DVision (now that some people now have experience of stereo 3D through VR experiences there may be renewed interest). Obviously we will need to wait and see, but what's the fun in waiting? Discuss.
With all the talk of the 2080's coming out, their cost and possible performance, what I don't think I've seen discussed is how ray tracing itself or variable rate shading technologies may (or may not) work with 3DVision?

I've seen discussion elsewhere talking about how much better fidelity ray tracing can potentially create for VR, so based on that I'm definitely hopeful that it's a stereoscopic friendly approach. Who knows, maybe even fixing games will be a thing of the past.

Also, maybe somehow variable rate shading (successor to singlepass stereo) could/will be adapted to 3DVision. The skeptic in me doubts that will be the case... but the dreamer in me hopes that this is all relevant and could even lead to a refresh of and/or improved 3DVision (now that some people now have experience of stereo 3D through VR experiences there may be renewed interest).

Obviously we will need to wait and see, but what's the fun in waiting?

Discuss.

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#1
Posted 08/21/2018 05:29 PM   
Really interested in hearing the thoughts of the pros about this matter too.
Really interested in hearing the thoughts of the pros about this matter too.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#2
Posted 08/21/2018 08:59 PM   
Speaking from a professional engineering perspective, there is a fabulous software called KeyShot used for rendering, which for the past numerous years, has used CPU based Real Time Ray Tracing. The real time results are quite phenominal. I contacted them a while back, and they made 3DVision support for KeyShot. Here is my forum post on their forums: [url]https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=5542.0[/url] The madlads actually implemented 3D Vision support, and it actually "just works"! Brilliantly well, I might add - although you have to be in fullscreen of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jlU1gsqB5g
Speaking from a professional engineering perspective, there is a fabulous software called KeyShot used for rendering, which for the past numerous years, has used CPU based Real Time Ray Tracing. The real time results are quite phenominal.

I contacted them a while back, and they made 3DVision support for KeyShot. Here is my forum post on their forums:

https://www.keyshot.com/forum/index.php?topic=5542.0

The madlads actually implemented 3D Vision support, and it actually "just works"!

Brilliantly well, I might add - although you have to be in fullscreen of course.

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#3
Posted 08/21/2018 10:17 PM   
hmmm very interesting. =) maybe theres some hope.
hmmm very interesting. =) maybe theres some hope.

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#4
Posted 08/22/2018 01:39 AM   
Slighly off topic. Geforce RTX 2080 Ti: Raytracing-Performance in Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Off-screen-Gameplay) http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980/Videos/Nvidia-RTX-2080-Ti-Performance-in-Shadow-of-the-Tomb-Raider-1263244/ What 3D vision monitor is this? P.S. make sure you play the video on HD quality.
Slighly off topic.

Geforce RTX 2080 Ti: Raytracing-Performance in Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Off-screen-Gameplay)

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Grafikkarten-Grafikkarte-97980/Videos/Nvidia-RTX-2080-Ti-Performance-in-Shadow-of-the-Tomb-Raider-1263244/

What 3D vision monitor is this?

P.S. make sure you play the video on HD quality.

#5
Posted 08/22/2018 04:32 AM   
raytracing with RTX 20XX series won't make big changes for us 3Dvision users. Games won't be 100% "raytraced", only some effects like reflections and lighting, it will be optional and it could be disabled, just like the good old PhysX. So if you guys can fix it, it will be nice, but if you can't, just disable it in graphic options, simple as that.
raytracing with RTX 20XX series won't make big changes for us 3Dvision users. Games won't be 100% "raytraced", only some effects like reflections and lighting, it will be optional and it could be disabled, just like the good old PhysX.

So if you guys can fix it, it will be nice, but if you can't, just disable it in graphic options, simple as that.

#6
Posted 08/22/2018 08:23 AM   
Three options: 1- Ray tracing for DX11 too and then we fix it if it's broken. But I think I heard it will be for DX12 and Vulkan. 2- Someone makes a DX12 wrapper so we can fix those games. 3- Devs make 3D Vision ready games in DX12 and everything is correct (lol).
Three options:

1- Ray tracing for DX11 too and then we fix it if it's broken. But I think I heard it will be for DX12 and Vulkan.

2- Someone makes a DX12 wrapper so we can fix those games.

3- Devs make 3D Vision ready games in DX12 and everything is correct (lol).

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#7
Posted 08/22/2018 11:20 AM   
[quote="sebastatu"] What 3D vision monitor is this? [/quote] Acer Predator XB241H
sebastatu said:
What 3D vision monitor is this?


Acer Predator XB241H

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#8
Posted 08/22/2018 12:01 PM   
Don't really know enough about all this to connect every dot but I grasp some basic concepts here. The most realistic artificial lighting you could create is through HDRI (High-dynamic-range imaging). A HDRI is a series of photos taken in the real world from one position, stitched together, to form a full panoramic dome/sphere. In gaming they started using this as a skybox. Haven't played enough games to identify them all but so far I know "The Talos Principle" and "AC Black flag" used this technique. Think Frostbyte also uses this. What I can say about raytracing will be a bit speculative since I dont know it all that intricately. But this is basically about lighting, reflections and shadows. In one pot. How vertices/polygons are influenced by each other and the light shining on them. (you shader hackers would obviously have more terms) The variables on stationary objects alone seems to juice computational power. Now they are moving into real time. How objects are influenced moving inside your skybox. Or the effect an active skybox, like you find inside Zelda, has on all the objects inside. I've read through DarkStarSwords thread about his determined battle solving some of the most daunting effects in Dreamfall Chapters/3d Vision. Effects many of us take for granted. But I have to say, the guy who cracks this one shouldn't be a shader hacker. He should be a CEO or someone leading software development at nVidia. Apart from this I also have to speculate it sounds out of 3D Vision's reach. This technology haven't come to light because its the most demanding computational power in graphic designing. On the flip side, it might not be gpu bound? Seriously hope not. Where this succeeds you could expect a crazy new atmosphere in gaming!!! AMD would be completely silenced when nVidia pull this off. But then again, so we thought about 3D Vision in the beginning. Only game developers who see the potential in this would implement it. If theres money to be made it might revolutionize gaming. It might just be another effect few cares about. Considering how far pixel candy have been pushed in the past 5 years, they all look stunning as it already is. When games come too close to reality it would severely affect us psychologically. I cant imagine how sick this would be in 3d Vision. Call me a dreamer too =) [URL="https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/8/20/17698314/nvidia-volta-gpu-ray-tracing-graphics"]Some info...[/URL] Something I rendered in Keyshot... [img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/75718/[/img]
Don't really know enough about all this to connect every dot but I grasp some basic concepts here. The most realistic artificial lighting you could create is through HDRI (High-dynamic-range imaging). A HDRI is a series of photos taken in the real world from one position, stitched together, to form a full panoramic dome/sphere. In gaming they started using this as a skybox. Haven't played enough games to identify them all but so far I know "The Talos Principle" and "AC Black flag" used this technique. Think Frostbyte also uses this.

What I can say about raytracing will be a bit speculative since I dont know it all that intricately. But this is basically about lighting, reflections and shadows. In one pot. How vertices/polygons are influenced by each other and the light shining on them. (you shader hackers would obviously have more terms) The variables on stationary objects alone seems to juice computational power. Now they are moving into real time. How objects are influenced moving inside your skybox. Or the effect an active skybox, like you find inside Zelda, has on all the objects inside.

I've read through DarkStarSwords thread about his determined battle solving some of the most daunting effects in Dreamfall Chapters/3d Vision. Effects many of us take for granted. But I have to say, the guy who cracks this one shouldn't be a shader hacker. He should be a CEO or someone leading software development at nVidia. Apart from this I also have to speculate it sounds out of 3D Vision's reach. This technology haven't come to light because its the most demanding computational power in graphic designing. On the flip side, it might not be gpu bound? Seriously hope not.

Where this succeeds you could expect a crazy new atmosphere in gaming!!! AMD would be completely silenced when nVidia pull this off. But then again, so we thought about 3D Vision in the beginning. Only game developers who see the potential in this would implement it. If theres money to be made it might revolutionize gaming. It might just be another effect few cares about. Considering how far pixel candy have been pushed in the past 5 years, they all look stunning as it already is. When games come too close to reality it would severely affect us psychologically. I cant imagine how sick this would be in 3d Vision.
Call me a dreamer too =)

Some info...

Something I rendered in Keyshot...
Image
Attachments

nVidia B6.3.jpg

#9
Posted 08/22/2018 12:53 PM   
I've read in some previews that 2080ti can barely get 60fps at 1080p on bfv and tomb Raider with raytracing on, so I think that no matter if 3d vision renders RT lighting correctly or not, it won't be possible to render in twice for 3d at least in this generation, thankfully it looks like we can turn it off anyway, I'll get 3d instead of cool lighting and shiny reflections any time of the day.
I've read in some previews that 2080ti can barely get 60fps at 1080p on bfv and tomb Raider with raytracing on, so I think that no matter if 3d vision renders RT lighting correctly or not, it won't be possible to render in twice for 3d at least in this generation, thankfully it looks like we can turn it off anyway, I'll get 3d instead of cool lighting and shiny reflections any time of the day.

All hail 3d modders DHR, MasterOtaku, Losti, Necropants, Helifax, bo3b, mike_ar69, Flugan, DarkStarSword, 4everAwake, 3d4dd and so many more helping to keep the 3d dream alive, find their 3d fixes at http://helixmod.blogspot.com/ Also check my site for spanish VR and mobile gaming news: www.gamermovil.com

#10
Posted 08/22/2018 01:56 PM   
[quote="Skyrimer3d"]I've read in some previews that 2080ti can barely [b]get 60fps at 1080p[/b] on bfv and tomb Raider with raytracing on, [/quote] https://www.techradar.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti Not at 1080p, but at 4K. [i]Although we haven’t had the chance to benchmark the card thoroughly, we did get to play multiple PC games at 4K and in excess of 60 frames per second (fps) with the RTX 2080 Ti[/i] [i]In terms of frame rate, Shadow of the Tomb Raider ran at a mostly consistent 50-57 fps, which is impressive giving the game is running on a single GPU and in such an early state – on top of all the new ray tracing techniques.[/i] [i]We also played a variety of other PC games that shall not be named, and saw performance run in excess of 100 fps at 4K and Ultra settings. [/i]
Skyrimer3d said:I've read in some previews that 2080ti can barely get 60fps at 1080p on bfv and tomb Raider with raytracing on,


https://www.techradar.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti

Not at 1080p, but at 4K.

Although we haven’t had the chance to benchmark the card thoroughly, we did get to play multiple PC games at 4K and in excess of 60 frames per second (fps) with the RTX 2080 Ti

In terms of frame rate, Shadow of the Tomb Raider ran at a mostly consistent 50-57 fps, which is impressive giving the game is running on a single GPU and in such an early state – on top of all the new ray tracing techniques.

We also played a variety of other PC games that shall not be named, and saw performance run in excess of 100 fps at 4K and Ultra settings.

#11
Posted 08/22/2018 05:05 PM   
[quote="masterotaku"]Three options: 1- Ray tracing for DX11 too and then we fix it if it's broken. But I think I heard it will be for DX12 and Vulkan. 2- Someone makes a DX12 wrapper so we can fix those games. 3- Devs make 3D Vision ready games in DX12 and everything is correct (lol).[/quote] It's all "shader-based". In DX12 they added, I think one extra function. Look at Siggraph 2018 (last week) papers... [s]It's not DX12 or Vulkan exclusive, DX11 has it as well![/s] Currently is only DX12. Vulkan Support will be added later. DX11 support will probably not come, as probably it will not behave correctly. @KoelerMeester: Awesome render!
masterotaku said:Three options:

1- Ray tracing for DX11 too and then we fix it if it's broken. But I think I heard it will be for DX12 and Vulkan.

2- Someone makes a DX12 wrapper so we can fix those games.

3- Devs make 3D Vision ready games in DX12 and everything is correct (lol).


It's all "shader-based". In DX12 they added, I think one extra function.
Look at Siggraph 2018 (last week) papers...

It's not DX12 or Vulkan exclusive, DX11 has it as well!

Currently is only DX12. Vulkan Support will be added later. DX11 support will probably not come, as probably it will not behave correctly.



@KoelerMeester:
Awesome render!

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#12
Posted 08/22/2018 06:58 PM   
Thanks Helifax. You can do some funky stuff with this software. I like fooling around with it in my spare time. Im very curious what nVidia's Raytracing tech would bring us =) [img]https://forums.geforce.com/cmd/default/download-comment-attachment/75721/[/img]
Thanks Helifax. You can do some funky stuff with this software. I like fooling around with it in my spare time. Im very curious what nVidia's Raytracing tech would bring us =)

Image
Attachments

Cube 1.2.png

#13
Posted 08/23/2018 12:34 PM   
That's great KoelerMeester! To show KeyShot's Real Time Ray Tracing with Stereoscopic 3D / VR abilities, I downloaded a model of a GTX 1080 and made the shroud transparent green. The results in both cross-eyed and JPS format are below, as well as a picture showing the S3D/VR options (on the right): [img]https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HAvzGbd.png[/img] [img]https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HAvzT8d.jpg[/img] 3D .jps [url]https://ufile.io/o0zno[/url]
That's great KoelerMeester!

To show KeyShot's Real Time Ray Tracing with Stereoscopic 3D / VR abilities, I downloaded a model of a GTX 1080 and made the shroud transparent green.

The results in both cross-eyed and JPS format are below, as well as a picture showing the S3D/VR options (on the right):

Image

Image

3D .jps
https://ufile.io/o0zno

Windows 10 64-bit, Intel 7700K @ 5.1GHz, 16GB 3600MHz CL15 DDR4 RAM, 2x GTX 1080 SLI, Asus Maximus IX Hero, Sound Blaster ZxR, PCIe Quad SSD, Oculus Rift CV1, DLP Link PGD-150 glasses, ViewSonic PJD6531w 3D DLP Projector @ 1280x800 120Hz native / 2560x1600 120Hz DSR 3D Gaming.

#14
Posted 08/23/2018 01:46 PM   
I’m actually more excited about DLSS than the ray tracing, I only hope that works just fine with S3D...
I’m actually more excited about DLSS than the ray tracing, I only hope that works just fine with S3D...

#15
Posted 08/23/2018 01:51 PM   
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