Indigomod - DX11 wrapper by Chiri and elbarterino - Bioshock Infinite
  20 / 28    
[quote="eqzitara"][quote="Schmeltzer"] Now, the last person I want to insult here is Helix (so plz forgive me if I do), but I thought the timing of the release of his wp-wrapper was rather poor chosen. Why not wait another week? [/quote] TBH, I stand by Helix's decision. So many people donated too much and with $1500 looming in 10 days. Fear was too strong a motivator.[/quote] Ok, but that is HIS opinion. I donated 300+ and I was even considering to donate whatever was needed on the last day (who needs a holiday in Italy anyway ;-)). And I would have been perfectly fine by that. Because 2 solutions for 1 problem is way better then having 1.
eqzitara said:
Schmeltzer said:
Now, the last person I want to insult here is Helix (so plz forgive me if I do), but I thought the timing of the release of his wp-wrapper was rather poor chosen. Why not wait another week?

TBH, I stand by Helix's decision. So many people donated too much and with $1500 looming in 10 days. Fear was too strong a motivator.


Ok, but that is HIS opinion. I donated 300+ and I was even considering to donate whatever was needed on the last day (who needs a holiday in Italy anyway ;-)). And I would have been perfectly fine by that.

Because 2 solutions for 1 problem is way better then having 1.

Posted 08/03/2013 10:30 PM   
[quote="Alo81"] To be fair, if Helix did know of the project and was also working on a free alternative, he should have at least contacted them and let him now that he had found an alternative and was planning to release it for free, then Chiri could decide whether it's worth it for him to continue working at that point. [/quote] Helix was working on a dx11 wrapper first and stated it. No one contacted helix about this wrapper. He actually found out when I talked to him one day. Helix is the person who kept 3d vision alive to this point and tbh. [u]This campaign used Helix as an example of why to support it but he was never contacted.[/u].
Alo81 said:
To be fair, if Helix did know of the project and was also working on a free alternative, he should have at least contacted them and let him now that he had found an alternative and was planning to release it for free, then Chiri could decide whether it's worth it for him to continue working at that point.


Helix was working on a dx11 wrapper first and stated it. No one contacted helix about this wrapper. He actually found out when I talked to him one day. Helix is the person who kept 3d vision alive to this point and tbh. This campaign used Helix as an example of why to support it but he was never contacted..

Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com

If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com

Posted 08/03/2013 10:31 PM   
[quote="eqzitara"][quote]And as shown on this forum, all the backers I have read are happy with Chiri keeping the money for the project... So what's the issue.. [/quote] I think its that Helix's fixes are on a different level and its very hard to compare. As noted above lua script is helix's VERY VERY VERY complex method of automated fixing shaders [Has to be written for each game engine]. In case everyone doesn't remember. Helix has a lot of experience with perfecting 3D Vision games.[/quote] But that is the point i don't understand eqzitara, they say their method is easier for people to use, and can be used for other games. Sounds very worthy to me. So helix has created his own fix for bioshock. That doesn't nullify all the work chiri and co have done and the use his tool can offer for other games, which Is why I don't understand the anger... Unless the tool really was only for bioshock infinite, in which case the patch was mis-sold. If the patch allows a wider variety of coders to understand and manipulate shaders because of a c like language or easier use, then why bin it... Doesn't make sense to me, and clearly not to any of the backers who have spoken out about this decision. If work already undertaken is being scrapped purely out of spite of Helix's free effort, then that really is a sad state of affairs.
eqzitara said:
And as shown on this forum, all the backers I have read are happy with Chiri keeping the money for the project... So what's the issue..

I think its that Helix's fixes are on a different level and its very hard to compare. As noted above lua script is helix's VERY VERY VERY complex method of automated fixing shaders [Has to be written for each game engine].

In case everyone doesn't remember. Helix has a lot of experience with perfecting 3D Vision games.

But that is the point i don't understand eqzitara, they say their method is easier for people to use, and can be used for other games. Sounds very worthy to me. So helix has created his own fix for bioshock. That doesn't nullify all the work chiri and co have done and the use his tool can offer for other games, which Is why I don't understand the anger... Unless the tool really was only for bioshock infinite, in which case the patch was mis-sold.

If the patch allows a wider variety of coders to understand and manipulate shaders because of a c like language or easier use, then why bin it... Doesn't make sense to me, and clearly not to any of the backers who have spoken out about this decision. If work already undertaken is being scrapped purely out of spite of Helix's free effort, then that really is a sad state of affairs.

OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti

Posted 08/03/2013 10:34 PM   
This is my last post cause I don't want to deal with this drama. Too many people don't understand full situation and want a full explanation based on how they feel. This is part of the reason I don't deal with money. Why not wait for things to cool down before asking for an explanation of the future. This is the end of the bioshock infinite patch. They are not saying it's the end. They may release wrapper, they may try to patch games still. But.. If you blame helix for anything. You lose my respect. Cool your heads. @foreverseeking Easy is a matter of opinion which is hard to know without a direct comparison from different individuals. They said its easier to mod DX11 because of language over DX9. DX11 looks like a foreign language to me. Look at me, seriously Ive fixed NON-SLI issues using his tool. Thats mind blowing to me. So whose to say.
This is my last post cause I don't want to deal with this drama. Too many people don't understand full situation and want a full explanation based on how they feel. This is part of the reason I don't deal with money.


Why not wait for things to cool down before asking for an explanation of the future. This is the end of the bioshock infinite patch. They are not saying it's the end. They may release wrapper, they may try to patch games still. But.. If you blame helix for anything. You lose my respect. Cool your heads.

@foreverseeking
Easy is a matter of opinion which is hard to know without a direct comparison from different individuals. They said its easier to mod DX11 because of language over DX9. DX11 looks like a foreign language to me. Look at me, seriously Ive fixed NON-SLI issues using his tool. Thats mind blowing to me. So whose to say.

Co-founder of helixmod.blog.com

If you like one of my helixmod patches and want to donate. Can send to me through paypal - eqzitara@yahoo.com

Posted 08/03/2013 10:39 PM   
[quote="foreverseeking"] If the patch allows a wider variety of coders to understand and manipulate shaders because of a c like language or easier use, then why bin it...[/quote] Yeah, I would love to become a 3D fixer but eventually I was only able to remove shaders. But my profession is Javaprogrammer and my knowledge of C is a bit rusty, but I thought: this IGG wrapper might give me a second chance. So again Chiri & co: don't give up!
foreverseeking said:
If the patch allows a wider variety of coders to understand and manipulate shaders because of a c like language or easier use, then why bin it...


Yeah, I would love to become a 3D fixer but eventually I was only able to remove shaders.
But my profession is Javaprogrammer and my knowledge of C is a bit rusty, but I thought: this IGG wrapper might give me a second chance.

So again Chiri & co: don't give up!

Posted 08/03/2013 10:43 PM   
[quote="eqzitara"][quote="Alo81"] To be fair, if Helix did know of the project and was also working on a free alternative, he should have at least contacted them and let him now that he had found an alternative and was planning to release it for free, then Chiri could decide whether it's worth it for him to continue working at that point. [/quote] Helix was working on a dx11 wrapper first and stated it. No one contacted helix about this wrapper. He actually found out when I talked to him one day. Helix is the person who kept 3d vision alive to this point and tbh. [u]This campaign used Helix as an example of why to support it but he was never contacted.[/u].[/quote] I wasn't aware that Helix was working on a DX11 wrapper first. All I said in my message was that if he had known there was a patch in development that was soon to be sold to the 3D gaming community while he himself was working on a free alternative, it would have been a nice gesture to let them know of his work. The same way that he didn't know about their work, they may not have known what he was planning. I'm not saying he had to do it, or that there was something wrong with him not doing it, but it would have been a good gesture so allow Chiri to decide whether he considered it worthwhile to continue the campaign.
eqzitara said:
Alo81 said:
To be fair, if Helix did know of the project and was also working on a free alternative, he should have at least contacted them and let him now that he had found an alternative and was planning to release it for free, then Chiri could decide whether it's worth it for him to continue working at that point.


Helix was working on a dx11 wrapper first and stated it. No one contacted helix about this wrapper. He actually found out when I talked to him one day. Helix is the person who kept 3d vision alive to this point and tbh. This campaign used Helix as an example of why to support it but he was never contacted..


I wasn't aware that Helix was working on a DX11 wrapper first. All I said in my message was that if he had known there was a patch in development that was soon to be sold to the 3D gaming community while he himself was working on a free alternative, it would have been a nice gesture to let them know of his work.

The same way that he didn't know about their work, they may not have known what he was planning. I'm not saying he had to do it, or that there was something wrong with him not doing it, but it would have been a good gesture so allow Chiri to decide whether he considered it worthwhile to continue the campaign.

Posted 08/03/2013 10:46 PM   
SG have a page showing both wrappers in action. The original aim was to highlight areas in each that still required improvement (they were/are both wip projects) You can download the helixmod video (64mb) for full screen/hi-res viewing. [url]http://www.3dsolutiongaming.com/2013/08/dx11-wrappers-helixmod-indigomod/[/url] [i]we are having technical difficulties recording video, hence the unusual recording style we have used[/i]
SG have a page showing both wrappers in action. The original aim was to highlight areas in each that still required improvement (they were/are both wip projects)

You can download the helixmod video (64mb) for full screen/hi-res viewing.

http://www.3dsolutiongaming.com/2013/08/dx11-wrappers-helixmod-indigomod/


we are having technical difficulties recording video, hence the unusual recording style we have used

Asus Rampage Extreme II | Quad core intel I7 2.6 | 6gig ram | Geforce GTX 680 | Samsung 22" 2233RZ | Acer 5360 | win8

3D website dedicated soley for nvidia 3D Vision

Visit 3dSolutionGaming.com for an A-Z listing of 3D streaming video's, automated slideshows, download packs and common fixes for 3dvision gamers.

Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/3dsolutiongaming
Twitter page: https://twitter.com/solutiongaming
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/user/SolutionGaming

Keenly supporting the Helixwrapper
http://helixmod.blogspot.com/

Posted 08/03/2013 10:50 PM   
Ok, well, at the end of the day, let's all still be friends, ok? ;-)
Ok, well, at the end of the day, let's all still be friends, ok? ;-)

Posted 08/04/2013 01:08 AM   
I'm with djb. I'd still like to see chiri's fix completed/released though, and he still has my $250 if he wants it.
I'm with djb.

I'd still like to see chiri's fix completed/released though, and he still has my $250 if he wants it.

Posted 08/04/2013 09:30 AM   
I agree with djb and Pirateguybrush. Ultimately, this is all very good news overall, so it should be something to be grateful for, not angry. Surely it's easy to see that both sides of the story are at least partly valid here? Of course Chiri et al are going to be upset. Helix's timing, and his decision to focus in on Bioshock Infinite, of all games, obviously came as a slap in the face. How could it not? If Helix had announced his mod two weeks from now, the indigomod team would have gotten their money in good conscience, no one would bear them any grudges, and everything would be ok (though people would probably be pissed at Helix for staying quiet so long). If Helix had announced his mod in the early days of the indigomod, they would have scrapped it and would have saved themselves many hours of work. Helix's timing seems pretty lousy, really. But in his defence, he is an independent person, and he's not obligated to do things according to someone else's timeframe. And anyway, he maybe didn't have much choice. Perhaps he wasn't sure enough about his mod 2 weeks ago, and didn't want to shoot down the indigomod before it had even taken off the ground. But now that it's almost complete, perhaps he felt he couldn't in good conscience stay silent, since people had so much money at stake. I admire Chiri et al for pulling the plug on the project, because [u]they were no longer delivering what was promised[/u]: the original intention was to release a DX11 wrapper to a community that didn't have one and really needed one. That's why people donated, but it is no longer the case now (after all, if the indigomod campaign had started [i]after[/i] Helix's announcement, they surely wouldn't have reached 4K). Legally, they didn't have to pull the plug, but I believe that morally, pulling the plug was the noble thing to do. They didn't have to sign off with such a snarky message but, hey, they were angry, and had right to be. They had just been (intentionally or unintentionally) slapped in the face. They've just seen a lot of work go for nothing. They also most likely lost a lot of money (assuming they turned down other work in order to work on the mod). Cut them some slack. Demanding that they keep working on it for free is a bit unfair, too. Maybe they still have hundreds of hours left on it. And maybe they don't feel like spending those hundreds of hours working for free, without any income to put food on the table, just so that the community can have a quite possibly redundant (and in their own honest words: possibly inferior) solution to a problem that Helix has already solved. I don't think anyone has a right to blame them for that. Personally, I think it's a situation that could never end completely cleanly. Sounds to me like Helix probably should have communicated a bit more with the indigomod guys, once he was aware of the mod. And the indiegomod guys probably should have consulted more with their donors about how to go (or not go) ahead once Helix made his announcement, rather than just aborting so abruptly. But I'm guessing that there would have been some tears no matter how this played out, and no matter what Helix or the indigomod guys did, they probably would have pissed off somebody. I say we cut them both slack, thank them both for their work, and rejoice that 3D Gaming is about to get better!
I agree with djb and Pirateguybrush. Ultimately, this is all very good news overall, so it should be something to be grateful for, not angry. Surely it's easy to see that both sides of the story are at least partly valid here?

Of course Chiri et al are going to be upset. Helix's timing, and his decision to focus in on Bioshock Infinite, of all games, obviously came as a slap in the face. How could it not?

If Helix had announced his mod two weeks from now, the indigomod team would have gotten their money in good conscience, no one would bear them any grudges, and everything would be ok (though people would probably be pissed at Helix for staying quiet so long). If Helix had announced his mod in the early days of the indigomod, they would have scrapped it and would have saved themselves many hours of work.

Helix's timing seems pretty lousy, really. But in his defence, he is an independent person, and he's not obligated to do things according to someone else's timeframe. And anyway, he maybe didn't have much choice. Perhaps he wasn't sure enough about his mod 2 weeks ago, and didn't want to shoot down the indigomod before it had even taken off the ground. But now that it's almost complete, perhaps he felt he couldn't in good conscience stay silent, since people had so much money at stake.

I admire Chiri et al for pulling the plug on the project, because they were no longer delivering what was promised: the original intention was to release a DX11 wrapper to a community that didn't have one and really needed one. That's why people donated, but it is no longer the case now (after all, if the indigomod campaign had started after Helix's announcement, they surely wouldn't have reached 4K). Legally, they didn't have to pull the plug, but I believe that morally, pulling the plug was the noble thing to do.

They didn't have to sign off with such a snarky message but, hey, they were angry, and had right to be. They had just been (intentionally or unintentionally) slapped in the face. They've just seen a lot of work go for nothing. They also most likely lost a lot of money (assuming they turned down other work in order to work on the mod). Cut them some slack.

Demanding that they keep working on it for free is a bit unfair, too. Maybe they still have hundreds of hours left on it. And maybe they don't feel like spending those hundreds of hours working for free, without any income to put food on the table, just so that the community can have a quite possibly redundant (and in their own honest words: possibly inferior) solution to a problem that Helix has already solved. I don't think anyone has a right to blame them for that.

Personally, I think it's a situation that could never end completely cleanly. Sounds to me like Helix probably should have communicated a bit more with the indigomod guys, once he was aware of the mod. And the indiegomod guys probably should have consulted more with their donors about how to go (or not go) ahead once Helix made his announcement, rather than just aborting so abruptly.

But I'm guessing that there would have been some tears no matter how this played out, and no matter what Helix or the indigomod guys did, they probably would have pissed off somebody.

I say we cut them both slack, thank them both for their work, and rejoice that 3D Gaming is about to get better!

ImageVolnaPC.com - Tips, tweaks, performance comparisons (PhysX card, SLI scaling, etc)

Posted 08/04/2013 10:10 AM   
Hey volnaiskra. while I appreciate you voice of reason, I really do not think that pointing the finger of any blame towards Helix for pure communication is fair in the slightest. When bioshock Infinite was released without 3D, there was a lot of furore. Eqzitara back then made it clear that Helix was working on a dx11 fix, but probably only has time in the summer. Indigomod made this patch public only a few weeks ago, already 2/3rds through summer. So Helix was supposed to contact Indigo? Or does it not seem more reasonable that indigo contact Helix? He was first on the scene, did the bulk of the tools up to this point and announced that he would try to fix dx11 first. Bioshock Infinite was the game that caused the fear over 3D vision becoming obsolete with dx11. It was the only clear choice of games to fix at the time. When new comers want to start something, is it not their responsibility to find out what the mainstream are already doing? Expecially when it has been clearly expressed that another would be working on a solution to the same problem by summer at latest. So helix could have waited till the last month of summer (august) to release his mod, just weeks after indigomod. What would that have achieved? - people pissed at helix for staying schtum. - people (potentially) angry at indigomod for charging for a solution that was going to be free mere weeks later. Lose lose The fact it was announced before indigomod's campaign was finished was a very good thing. It meant that people could still support indigomod (as they strongly did) despite knowing that helix mod was just around the corner. That meant: - people arnt pissed off at Helix - people can't be angry with indigomod, as they knew all the infomation before campaign was over. Win win. So to say that Helix should have communicated more imo is wrong. Indigomod shouldn't have assumed they would hold a monopoly on the fix, and been so upset when another solution came along. The donators all seemed to be happy for indigomod to keep the donations for the work they have already done. So why was it pulled? They still get the money from very eager and willing donators. It doesn't make sense.
Hey volnaiskra. while I appreciate you voice of reason, I really do not think that pointing the finger of any blame towards Helix for pure communication is fair in the slightest. When bioshock Infinite was released without 3D, there was a lot of furore. Eqzitara back then made it clear that Helix was working on a dx11 fix, but probably only has time in the summer. Indigomod made this patch public only a few weeks ago, already 2/3rds through summer.

So Helix was supposed to contact Indigo? Or does it not seem more reasonable that indigo contact Helix? He was first on the scene, did the bulk of the tools up to this point and announced that he would try to fix dx11 first. Bioshock Infinite was the game that caused the fear over 3D vision becoming obsolete with dx11. It was the only clear choice of games to fix at the time. When new comers want to start something, is it not their responsibility to find out what the mainstream are already doing? Expecially when it has been clearly expressed that another would be working on a solution to the same problem by summer at latest.

So helix could have waited till the last month of summer (august) to release his mod, just weeks after indigomod. What would that have achieved?

- people pissed at helix for staying schtum.
- people (potentially) angry at indigomod for charging for a solution that was going to be free mere weeks later.

Lose lose

The fact it was announced before indigomod's campaign was finished was a very good thing. It meant that people could still support indigomod (as they strongly did) despite knowing that helix mod was just around the corner. That meant:

- people arnt pissed off at Helix
- people can't be angry with indigomod, as they knew all the infomation before campaign was over.

Win win.

So to say that Helix should have communicated more imo is wrong. Indigomod shouldn't have assumed they would hold a monopoly on the fix, and been so upset when another solution came along. The donators all seemed to be happy for indigomod to keep the donations for the work they have already done. So why was it pulled? They still get the money from very eager and willing donators. It doesn't make sense.

OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti

Posted 08/04/2013 10:45 AM   
I will also stop this dicusussion because everything that is being said here seems to piss off someone else. I allways thought of the 3D scene as a happy crowd, let's keep it that way :-)
I will also stop this dicusussion because everything that is being said here seems to piss off someone else.

I allways thought of the 3D scene as a happy crowd, let's keep it that way :-)

Posted 08/04/2013 11:21 AM   
[quote="Schmeltzer"]I will also stop this dicusussion because everything that is being said here seems to piss off someone else. I allways thought of the 3D scene as a happy crowd, let's keep it that way :-)[/quote] It is, which is why I find it really sad that the release of free work, done by a guy who has carried us through the drought of 3D games, responsible for our community as we know it, is causing so much anger and distain in other modders and even getting the finger of blame pointed towards him from others. I just want to make sure we don't all lose sight that, Helix was always there and he has always released fixes for free. He should not have to write to any person wanting to capitalise on 3D to announce what he is working on. Especially when eqzitara, who works largely as a spokesperson for Helix, stated that Helix would likely be working on a fix this summer. This community is great, and I'm not looking to cause any friction, I just want to make sure that blame is not attributed in anyway where it is not due. Helix is not to blame at all for indigomod's overreaction.
Schmeltzer said:I will also stop this dicusussion because everything that is being said here seems to piss off someone else.
I allways thought of the 3D scene as a happy crowd, let's keep it that way :-)

It is, which is why I find it really sad that the release of free work, done by a guy who has carried us through the drought of 3D games, responsible for our community as we know it, is causing so much anger and distain in other modders and even getting the finger of blame pointed towards him from others. I just want to make sure we don't all lose sight that, Helix was always there and he has always released fixes for free. He should not have to write to any person wanting to capitalise on 3D to announce what he is working on. Especially when eqzitara, who works largely as a spokesperson for Helix, stated that Helix would likely be working on a fix this summer.

This community is great, and I'm not looking to cause any friction, I just want to make sure that blame is not attributed in anyway where it is not due. Helix is not to blame at all for indigomod's overreaction.

OS: Win 8 CPU: I7 4770k 3.5GZ GPU: GTX 780ti

Posted 08/04/2013 11:30 AM   
As HeliX made clear, he values his freedom to work on things. He's not asking for anything in return, he just wants to work what he wants to work on. So why should he have to worry about what other people are doing or trying to profit on? I don't think he deserves any blame in this, because his approach is entirely intended to avoid such baggage and drama. That's my impression anyway. As for Indigomod, I too encouraged them to continue, but I can understand how the equation changed for them with the arrival of another fix. Frankly, I would also hesitate to take money from people under the current circumstances, many of whom donated 3 figures, even if they were still supportive. I can also understand them being generally emotional, as it's just not as cool to come in second. But hey, that's business. Sometimes you win, sometimes you tie. I just hope the Indigomod team doesn't forget how supportive the 3D community has been (at least up until the cancellation, which was not our decision nor desire). So basically, as djb said, let's all still be friends!
As HeliX made clear, he values his freedom to work on things. He's not asking for anything in return, he just wants to work what he wants to work on. So why should he have to worry about what other people are doing or trying to profit on? I don't think he deserves any blame in this, because his approach is entirely intended to avoid such baggage and drama. That's my impression anyway.

As for Indigomod, I too encouraged them to continue, but I can understand how the equation changed for them with the arrival of another fix. Frankly, I would also hesitate to take money from people under the current circumstances, many of whom donated 3 figures, even if they were still supportive. I can also understand them being generally emotional, as it's just not as cool to come in second. But hey, that's business. Sometimes you win, sometimes you tie.

I just hope the Indigomod team doesn't forget how supportive the 3D community has been (at least up until the cancellation, which was not our decision nor desire).

So basically, as djb said, let's all still be friends!

Posted 08/04/2013 12:17 PM   
Maybe we should end this here, with the understanding that most of us are open to chiri re-opening his campaign, and Helix's work is also great/appreciated.
Maybe we should end this here, with the understanding that most of us are open to chiri re-opening his campaign, and Helix's work is also great/appreciated.

Posted 08/04/2013 12:50 PM   
  20 / 28    
Scroll To Top