1080p/120hz 3DVision on Sony XBR-55X900A (4KTV) via HDMI2.0
OK, Friends. Help a guy out, please. I've been waiting for the day that I can play a game in 3D on a 4K screen that has passive 3D, and it seems that the day might be here. The facts(?): [list] [.]3D vision sends 1080p at 120hz, with 60 FPS for each eye over dual-link DVI[/.] [.]Dual-link DVI converts to HDMI via a simple conversion dongle[/.] [.]The Sony XBR-55X900A (4K screen with passive 3D) now has support for HDMI 2.0.[/.] [/list] So, PLEASE TELL ME, do I have a snowball's chance in hell of pushing full 1080p 3D to the Sony with 60fps for each eye? Will the 3D signal that NVidia sends over dual-link remain preserved when converted to HDMI? Will the Sony even recognize the signal as HDMI 2.0? Here's the biggest hitch... Sony's update to HDMI 2.0 clearly enables you to send 4K 60hz video content to the screen [b]in 2D[/b], but I don't know if Sony's 2.0 update was tested by them against 3D signals being sent at 1080p/120hz. I plan to reach out to them to ask about this, but I have no idea how tenacious I'll have to be to get an accurate and informed answer. I currently game quite a bit in 3DVision using two EVGA gtx580 Classified cards (3GB version, water cooled). I have an Asus VG278H "3D Vision 2" monitor, which is as good as 3D Vision output gets using "official" PC gear. The truth is, I despise the crosstalk and dimness of active 3D, even with Lightboost 2. Despite all the tradeoffs of my current 3D setup, I still love 3D gaming and want more. FYI - I just ordered two new 790ti cards, since I'm ready for an update. So, I have the money, and I have a dream. The question is, do I have to dream a little longer, or can I get my high frame rate, 1080p, passive 3D gaming experience now? Mind you, Oculus and other VR headsets are not of immediate use to me. I'm only interested in full 1080p at 60fps to each of my eyeballs with NO shutter glasses. Any insights that you can share, whether speculative or factual, will be greatly appreciated! -Rick EDIT: I'm open to using middleware to push a side-by-side or other form of 3D signal, if necessary. The very core of my question is in reference to the ability for dual-link to convert to HDMI 2.0.
OK, Friends. Help a guy out, please.

I've been waiting for the day that I can play a game in 3D on a 4K screen that has passive 3D, and it seems that the day might be here.

The facts(?):
  • 3D vision sends 1080p at 120hz, with 60 FPS for each eye over dual-link DVI
  • Dual-link DVI converts to HDMI via a simple conversion dongle
  • The Sony XBR-55X900A (4K screen with passive 3D) now has support for HDMI 2.0.


So, PLEASE TELL ME, do I have a snowball's chance in hell of pushing full 1080p 3D to the Sony with 60fps for each eye? Will the 3D signal that NVidia sends over dual-link remain preserved when converted to HDMI? Will the Sony even recognize the signal as HDMI 2.0?

Here's the biggest hitch... Sony's update to HDMI 2.0 clearly enables you to send 4K 60hz video content to the screen in 2D, but I don't know if Sony's 2.0 update was tested by them against 3D signals being sent at 1080p/120hz. I plan to reach out to them to ask about this, but I have no idea how tenacious I'll have to be to get an accurate and informed answer.

I currently game quite a bit in 3DVision using two EVGA gtx580 Classified cards (3GB version, water cooled). I have an Asus VG278H "3D Vision 2" monitor, which is as good as 3D Vision output gets using "official" PC gear. The truth is, I despise the crosstalk and dimness of active 3D, even with Lightboost 2. Despite all the tradeoffs of my current 3D setup, I still love 3D gaming and want more. FYI - I just ordered two new 790ti cards, since I'm ready for an update.

So, I have the money, and I have a dream. The question is, do I have to dream a little longer, or can I get my high frame rate, 1080p, passive 3D gaming experience now? Mind you, Oculus and other VR headsets are not of immediate use to me. I'm only interested in full 1080p at 60fps to each of my eyeballs with NO shutter glasses.

Any insights that you can share, whether speculative or factual, will be greatly appreciated!

-Rick

EDIT:
I'm open to using middleware to push a side-by-side or other form of 3D signal, if necessary. The very core of my question is in reference to the ability for dual-link to convert to HDMI 2.0.

#1
Posted 03/30/2014 08:35 PM   
I think there are too many unknowns. You'll probably have to use some sort of third party adaptor (which probably doesn't exist) plus unless Nvidia do all sort of nice unlikely things with the drivers, you'd need to perform some EDID trickery. I agree that all things being equal, active can be dimmer than passive, but in my opinion you're not getting the ultimate out of the box 3d vision output unless you are using a DLP projector (active). It's the only way to get no crosstalk, plus they kick out a lot of lumens these days.
I think there are too many unknowns. You'll probably have to use some sort of third party adaptor (which probably doesn't exist) plus unless Nvidia do all sort of nice unlikely things with the drivers, you'd need to perform some EDID trickery.

I agree that all things being equal, active can be dimmer than passive, but in my opinion you're not getting the ultimate out of the box 3d vision output unless you are using a DLP projector (active). It's the only way to get no crosstalk, plus they kick out a lot of lumens these days.

GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310

#2
Posted 03/31/2014 06:27 PM   
Hi rustyk, Thanks for jumping in. Check out this post: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/539754/anyone-seen-these-new-displayport-to-hdmi-type-2-selling-yet-/ Supposedly, I can convert a displayport signal to HDMI, and 3D Vision is supported over displayport. Sadly, I've learned that the patterned film retarder on 4K 55" Sony model doesn't send 1080p to each eye. The PPI on 55" model is too fine, and Sony couldn't get the lines in the polarized film down to the same PPI. See here for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1496510/sony-xbr-55x900a-consumer-reports-shares-a-review-with-avs Luckily, the 65 model DOES have an PFR that sends 1080p to each eye, so that would be the model for me. As I said in my original post, shutter glasses aren't for me. Passive is my choice. Based on mountains of research and time spent on AVS Forum, a 4K screen with 3D PFR tech or a dual-projector system using polarized filters (also passive) are the only options. I received my new Rampage IV Black today, and just ordered two EVGA 780ti Kingpins today. I'll spend the weekend tearing down my system and rebuilding it with the new gear. After that, I'll be damn tempted to take a chance on the 65" Sony. -Rick
Hi rustyk,

Thanks for jumping in.

Check out this post: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/539754/anyone-seen-these-new-displayport-to-hdmi-type-2-selling-yet-/

Supposedly, I can convert a displayport signal to HDMI, and 3D Vision is supported over displayport.

Sadly, I've learned that the patterned film retarder on 4K 55" Sony model doesn't send 1080p to each eye. The PPI on 55" model is too fine, and Sony couldn't get the lines in the polarized film down to the same PPI. See here for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1496510/sony-xbr-55x900a-consumer-reports-shares-a-review-with-avs

Luckily, the 65 model DOES have an PFR that sends 1080p to each eye, so that would be the model for me. As I said in my original post, shutter glasses aren't for me. Passive is my choice. Based on mountains of research and time spent on AVS Forum, a 4K screen with 3D PFR tech or a dual-projector system using polarized filters (also passive) are the only options.

I received my new Rampage IV Black today, and just ordered two EVGA 780ti Kingpins today. I'll spend the weekend tearing down my system and rebuilding it with the new gear. After that, I'll be damn tempted to take a chance on the 65" Sony.

-Rick

#3
Posted 03/31/2014 11:18 PM   
Dang, I forgot about the Sony's use of passive. Most other 4K use active 3D. I am hoping that Samsung or Panasonic or somebody makes a checkerboard version because that is the finest picture were going to get, yet Nvidia renderes the whole screen when they do checkerboard 3D instead of just each square we see, so i hope there a Direct X function that allows us only to render the visible squares.
Dang, I forgot about the Sony's use of passive. Most other 4K use active 3D. I am hoping that Samsung or Panasonic or somebody makes a checkerboard version because that is the finest picture were going to get, yet Nvidia renderes the whole screen when they do checkerboard 3D instead of just each square we see, so i hope there a Direct X function that allows us only to render the visible squares.

46" Samsung ES7500 3DTV (checkerboard, high FOV as desktop monitor, highly recommend!) - Metro 2033 3D PNG screens - Metro LL filter realism mod - Flugan's Deus Ex:HR Depth changers - Nvidia tech support online form - Nvidia support: 1-800-797-6530

#4
Posted 03/31/2014 11:24 PM   
Hi Rick, You know it's basically is going to be a case of try it and see. I know originally 3d vision via display port was only supported with certain devices. That's what the release notes said some time ago. I'm not convinced that the adaptor has the bandwidth. I know the spec says it has, but most of those reviewers are using resolutions supported by the earlier flavours of HDMI 1.4 from what I could see. I'm more than happy to be wrong, of course! Lastly, does the TV support that input resolution and framerate and does it support frame sequential?
Hi Rick,

You know it's basically is going to be a case of try it and see.

I know originally 3d vision via display port was only supported with certain devices. That's what the release notes said some time ago.

I'm not convinced that the adaptor has the bandwidth. I know the spec says it has, but most of those reviewers are using resolutions supported by the earlier flavours of HDMI 1.4 from what I could see.
I'm more than happy to be wrong, of course!

Lastly, does the TV support that input resolution and framerate and does it support frame sequential?

GTX 1070 SLI, I7-6700k ~ 4.4Ghz, 3x BenQ XL2420T, BenQ TK800, LG 55EG960V (3D OLED), Samsung 850 EVO SSD, Crucial M4 SSD, 3D vision kit, Xpand x104 glasses, Corsair HX1000i, Win 10 pro 64/Win 7 64https://www.3dmark.com/fs/9529310

#5
Posted 04/01/2014 08:11 AM   
Hi rustyk, You're right, unless I can get a hold of an uber-knowledgeable Sony engineer to answer these speculative questions, I'm just going to have to try it. The Sony supports 4K resolution at a 60hz input speed via HDMI 2.0. Per your bandwidth question, I'm pretty sure the available adapters use straightforward pin remapping, since they're passive dongles, rather than signal converters requiring a power source, so I'd like to think bandwidth won't be an issue. I'm going to remain optimistic about this point. If the conversion to HDMI 2.0 works, I don't know if the Sony will accept a frame sequential signal. It's probably too much to hope for. I may be left with the only option of using Tridef in side-by-side, assuming it will support two full 1080p frames side by side. Or maybe I can beg the powers that be at NVidia to add support for the Sony set in 3DTV Play. The most extreme option would be to hack the 780ti cards into Quadro's. I'm willing to go the distance on this project. I'm going to research for another 1-2 months before I buy the Sony in the hopes of clarifying some of these uncertainties. -Rick EDIT: FYI, Panasonic's TC-L65WT600 4K TV has both DisplayPort 1.2 and HDMI 2.0 inputs. Sadly, it features active 3D, and the reviews all mention ghosting/crosstalk. If only the damn thing had passive I'd buy it immediately.
Hi rustyk,

You're right, unless I can get a hold of an uber-knowledgeable Sony engineer to answer these speculative questions, I'm just going to have to try it.

The Sony supports 4K resolution at a 60hz input speed via HDMI 2.0. Per your bandwidth question, I'm pretty sure the available adapters use straightforward pin remapping, since they're passive dongles, rather than signal converters requiring a power source, so I'd like to think bandwidth won't be an issue. I'm going to remain optimistic about this point.

If the conversion to HDMI 2.0 works, I don't know if the Sony will accept a frame sequential signal. It's probably too much to hope for.

I may be left with the only option of using Tridef in side-by-side, assuming it will support two full 1080p frames side by side. Or maybe I can beg the powers that be at NVidia to add support for the Sony set in 3DTV Play. The most extreme option would be to hack the 780ti cards into Quadro's.

I'm willing to go the distance on this project. I'm going to research for another 1-2 months before I buy the Sony in the hopes of clarifying some of these uncertainties.

-Rick

EDIT: FYI, Panasonic's TC-L65WT600 4K TV has both DisplayPort 1.2 and HDMI 2.0 inputs. Sadly, it features active 3D, and the reviews all mention ghosting/crosstalk. If only the damn thing had passive I'd buy it immediately.

#6
Posted 04/01/2014 12:33 PM   
There are two drawbacks to Passive LCD Displays. 1. They are seldom supported in their native formats. A SBS input must be post processed and turned into line interleaved. This will cause a small amount of lag that can be bothersome in platform and competitive PVP games. Currently Passive users need to use an EDID override to implement line interleave via "Optimized for GeForce 3D". It can also increase ghosting. 2. Due to the inherent nature of the FPR (film pattern retarder) every other row of pixels are directed to one eye. So you'll never get full resolution in each eye, although the persistence of the image in the brain will make this somewhat unnoticeable.
There are two drawbacks to Passive LCD Displays.

1. They are seldom supported in their native formats. A SBS input must be post processed and turned into line interleaved. This will cause a small amount of lag that can be bothersome in platform and competitive PVP games. Currently Passive users need to use an EDID override to implement line interleave via "Optimized for GeForce 3D". It can also increase ghosting.

2. Due to the inherent nature of the FPR (film pattern retarder) every other row of pixels are directed to one eye. So you'll never get full resolution in each eye, although the persistence of the image in the brain will make this somewhat unnoticeable.

#7
Posted 04/01/2014 01:52 PM   
Hi D-Man11, 1. My 42-year-old brain has more perceptual lag than would be introduced by the SBS-to-interleaved signal processing. ;-) 2. The 65" Sony is a 4K screen with a 4K FPR, so each eye gets 1080p(x2). -Rick
Hi D-Man11,

1. My 42-year-old brain has more perceptual lag than would be introduced by the SBS-to-interleaved signal processing. ;-)

2. The 65" Sony is a 4K screen with a 4K FPR, so each eye gets 1080p(x2).

-Rick

#8
Posted 04/01/2014 04:51 PM   
So explain to me how they can send 1080p(x2) to each eye when there is no way to half the width for 1920 per eye using FPR technology? Using FPR you can only alternate every other row of either vertical or horizontal pixels. There is no way to do both at the same time using FPR. http://www.rnd.lgchem.com/eng/rnd/rdc_miteMITE01.asp#in00
So explain to me how they can send 1080p(x2) to each eye when there is no way to half the width for 1920 per eye using FPR technology?

Using FPR you can only alternate every other row of either vertical or horizontal pixels.

There is no way to do both at the same time using FPR.

http://www.rnd.lgchem.com/eng/rnd/rdc_miteMITE01.asp#in00

#9
Posted 04/01/2014 11:17 PM   
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I recall a 4K screen has 4X the resolution of a 1080P native screen. So if we were giving it a Stereoscopic 1080P signal the passive 3D 4D set would use 1/2 of the available 4K vertical resolution for one eye and the other 1/2 for the other eye. Unless I'm missing something this sounds like it ought to work and outside of the limitations of passive technology (ghosting) ought to work well. Since the data is part of a serial stream the 1st eye could/may/would be delayed until the 2nd eye is decoded so that both eyes are displayed on the screen at one time. However, given that the internal monitor refresh rate of these displays are usually 2x-10x faster than the actual frame rate over the serial connection (HDMI) this may likely not be the case. There could be some delay introduced if there are "motion smoothing" processing going on but hopefully there is a "game mode" where usually any extra processing that might introduce display lag can be mostly or fully avoided. This sounds like a fun project! Best of luck and be sure to keep us posted!
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I recall a 4K screen has 4X the resolution of a 1080P native screen.

So if we were giving it a Stereoscopic 1080P signal the passive 3D 4D set would use 1/2 of the available 4K vertical resolution for one eye and the other 1/2 for the other eye.

Unless I'm missing something this sounds like it ought to work and outside of the limitations of passive technology (ghosting) ought to work well.

Since the data is part of a serial stream the 1st eye could/may/would be delayed until the 2nd eye is decoded so that both eyes are displayed on the screen at one time.

However, given that the internal monitor refresh rate of these displays are usually 2x-10x faster than the actual frame rate over the serial connection (HDMI) this may likely not be the case. There could be some delay introduced if there are "motion smoothing" processing going on but hopefully there is a "game mode" where usually any extra processing that might introduce display lag can be mostly or fully avoided.

This sounds like a fun project! Best of luck and be sure to keep us posted!

i7-2600K-4.5Ghz/Corsair H100i/8GB/GTX780SC-SLI/Win7-64/1200W-PSU/Samsung 840-500GB SSD/Coolermaster-Tower/Benq 1080ST @ 100"

#10
Posted 04/01/2014 11:36 PM   
D-Man11: I'm sorry for not clarifying what I meant by "4K" in my posts. I assumed it was clear, and mbloof has clarified for you on my behalf. mbloof: Thanks for the response. I've noticed that your posts in this forum seem to be some of the better informed ones. That being said, I'm heartened by the fact that you didn't trot out a piece of technical knowledge that blows my plan out of the water! I'm currently proceeding on some sketchy assumptions: [list] [.]An assumption that a DisplayPort 1.2 to HDMI conversion dongle will create a signal that's recognizable by the Sony as HDMI 2.0. [/.] [.]An assumption that the Sony will recognize a 1080p/120hz frame-sequential signal, or otherwise recognize a 1080p(x2) side-by-side signal. [/.] [/list] The only way that I'm going to get any more definitive information is to get feedback from a Sony engineer or super-knowledgeable technician. I'd also need some feedback from someone who's intimate with the formats of DisplayLink and HDMI (to address whether the dongle will work). I'm going to spend some time on the 65" Sony owner's thread on AVS forum to see if I can identify any gurus. I still have hope.
D-Man11:
I'm sorry for not clarifying what I meant by "4K" in my posts. I assumed it was clear, and mbloof has clarified for you on my behalf.


mbloof:
Thanks for the response. I've noticed that your posts in this forum seem to be some of the better informed ones. That being said, I'm heartened by the fact that you didn't trot out a piece of technical knowledge that blows my plan out of the water!

I'm currently proceeding on some sketchy assumptions:
  • An assumption that a DisplayPort 1.2 to HDMI conversion dongle will create a signal that's recognizable by the Sony as HDMI 2.0.
  • An assumption that the Sony will recognize a 1080p/120hz frame-sequential signal, or otherwise recognize a 1080p(x2) side-by-side signal.


The only way that I'm going to get any more definitive information is to get feedback from a Sony engineer or super-knowledgeable technician. I'd also need some feedback from someone who's intimate with the formats of DisplayLink and HDMI (to address whether the dongle will work). I'm going to spend some time on the 65" Sony owner's thread on AVS forum to see if I can identify any gurus.

I still have hope.

#11
Posted 04/02/2014 12:15 AM   
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR-55X900A-55-Inch-Motionflow-Internet/dp/B00BSREPRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396396837&sr=8-1&keywords=Sony+XBR-55X900A Quote "There's 3D, then there's 3D with 4K (3,840 x 2,160). Life-like 3D images emerge from the 4K screen screen with realism that makes your heart race. The level of detail is absolutely stunning—it's the closest thing to a 3D theater in your living room. Light, comfortable, passive 3D glasses offer superb image quality and a noticeable step above anything you've ever experienced at home6." Nvm, it's 4K passive his 1080P x 2 confused me.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-XBR-55X900A-55-Inch-Motionflow-Internet/dp/B00BSREPRS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396396837&sr=8-1&keywords=Sony+XBR-55X900A

Quote "There's 3D, then there's 3D with 4K (3,840 x 2,160). Life-like 3D images emerge from the 4K screen screen with realism that makes your heart race. The level of detail is absolutely stunning—it's the closest thing to a 3D theater in your living room. Light, comfortable, passive 3D glasses offer superb image quality and a noticeable step above anything you've ever experienced at home6."

Nvm, it's 4K passive his 1080P x 2 confused me.

#12
Posted 04/02/2014 12:08 AM   
So a 4K passive projector setup may be the best solution for full resolution 4K stereoscopic gaming. If only Nvidia would officially start supporting dual passive projection on the consumer side. AMD Radeons may still hold the advantage in this regards, like they have at 1920x1080P starting with their 7970 GPU.
So a 4K passive projector setup may be the best solution for full resolution 4K stereoscopic gaming.

If only Nvidia would officially start supporting dual passive projection on the consumer side.

AMD Radeons may still hold the advantage in this regards, like they have at 1920x1080P starting with their 7970 GPU.

#13
Posted 04/02/2014 12:17 AM   
Scroll To Top